Sorin Markov as a two of has been pretty amazing, far more than I would have thought. He usually comes down and resets me to 10 life against aggro, then proceeds to help keep the population down, or drain the opponent while taking me further and further out of burn range.
... Sorin Markov's second ability definitely says "Target opponent's life total becomes 10". Are you purely speculating about these matchups or did you actually play them?
Here is the list I am currently toying around with. I didn't really follow any other list initially (hell, I actually started with a BUG deck trying to abuse Boneyard Wurm, Splinterfright and Mulch), but have obviously picked up some peices from elsewhere.
I went over some of the ideas in my earlier. I'll go over the rest here.
I originally had one each of Go for the Throat, Doom Blade and Victim of Night maindeck, and a second of each in the sideboard, but Victim felt clumsy, so I went with double the throats based on the local popularity of Monoblack Infect decks. Looking now, this may make me a little more vulnerable to Inkmoth Nexus so I might want to switch that around.
Massacre Wurm is a bit of a pet card, admittedly, but it is such a blowout against tokens. Even more importantly, it kills Mirran Crusader, Phyrexian Crusader AND Geist of Saint Traft. The Pharaohs are pretty sweet, and easy to dump with the Alchemies and Ravings. I've also never had a problem hardcasting them. They are at their best against control, particularly UB, so I only have one main.
Act of Aggression is quite possibly my favourite singleton card in the format. Multiples have killed me in the past, but I always feel better knowing I have one. There is not a single deck seeing play that I don't have a target with it. It often gets a 2 for 1, stealing one attacking creature to trade with another.
As far as lands, I know it looks odd, but I don't like running any of the current duals in 4s. I hate lands coming in tapped, so I start low and only increase my numbers if testing sees me having colour issues. I started with 2 of each, and have increased most of them by 1. It took a while for the basic Island to get, added. It was when I decided to maindeck some Negates instead of running Despise that I decided I wanted a little easier access (thanks to sad robots).
A couple of questions: how has Grimgrin been working out for you? It seems that it would only work in this list with Reassembling Skeletons. Also, when do you really want to use Act of Aggression? It doesn't seem to do much, and typically this deck needs two swings to kill people, so that one swing might not be enough. I just feel like you have extra cards in the deck that could be other more useful things (like Snapcaster Mage, draw, or counterspells). I would probably go -1x Life's Finale, -1x Act of Aggression, -1x Vengeful Pharoh, -1x something, +1x Doomblade, +3x Snapcaster Mage. I understand if you are using them in a different deck and don't feel like moving them. But when you play the deck for a tournament, have the spots available for Snapcaster (can be another sac for Grimgrin).
@ het8117: RedPenguin's list may look random, but when you think about it, most of the cards do the same thing. So while it does have a ton of 1-of's, it actually adds consitency to the deck because of Snapcaster Mage. The only difficulty is knowing which ones should only be used in certain situations.
@ RedPenguin: I like the list, but I don't know if Unburial Rites is worth it. We don't have any great ways of abusing it, and I think you would be fine without it. I would rather have Liliana/extra Snapcaster/extra land/extra Disperse/etc.
Unburial rites may seem terrible here but as a 1 of it has never done me wrong. I've discussed with twisted about some of my amazing plays.but look at it this way you care less about throwing away bombs on a FA or ravings when you have such potential in one card I have brought back 4 creatures with it in one game to bring me a victory. Now thisb is best poosible senario but after much testing I believe 1 is the perfect number
Edit: didn't see that you wanted game results I'll post 4 matches from testing from the other night if my memory doesn't fail me.
A couple of questions: how has Grimgrin been working out for you? It seems that it would only work in this list with Reassembling Skeletons. Also, when do you really want to use Act of Aggression? It doesn't seem to do much, and typically this deck needs two swings to kill people, so that one swing might not be enough. I just feel like you have extra cards in the deck that could be other more useful things (like Snapcaster Mage, draw, or counterspells). I would probably go -1x Life's Finale, -1x Act of Aggression, -1x Vengeful Pharoh, -1x something, +1x Doomblade, +3x Snapcaster Mage. I understand if you are using them in a different deck and don't feel like moving them. But when you play the deck for a tournament, have the spots available for Snapcaster (can be another sac for Grimgrin).
Grimgrin is dependant on either skeletons or bloodline keeper, but there are more of them than there are of him, and they stand alone well. He is just a one of and an experiment for now, but he is such a heavy hitter and his ability to get enemy titans out of the way is pretty sweet. As far as Act of Aggression, again it's a singleton which means it doesn't clog up the hand. The best uses I have found are when I can take one attacking creature to trade with another. Like stealing the angel token to block a problematic Geist of Saint Traft, or taking a Mirran Crusader to jump in front of a Hero of Bladehold.
EDIT: @Twistednic: You are correct, and I (and my testing partner) are really really really dumb... lol. Though this still isn't as bad a mistake as Ghost Quarter, where I and most of the people I play with had been bringing out lands into play tapped since Dissension, assuming that it worked that way without actually reading it. It wasn'tuntil seeing the Innistrad version that I noticed it didn't actually say tapped, and even then I went back to see if it was an errata lol.
“My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.” - Jack Layton, RIP
Chapin's build, more or less. Wanted to make a few more changes to it, but I forgot a set of cards I wanted to add in, including an additional Despise, so I had to stick with a basically stock list. The build is solid, given the local meta - two people playing steel, two people playing UW tokens (with counters, not like the aggro list from worlds), UW illusions. I felt I had a strong matchup against RG Kessig (the guy was playing Jun'ya's list card for card. No imagination, which is probably why he lost in the top four. Very easy when everyone knows the list card for card).
Played five rounds and scooped my friend into the final. At this point, it was close to 1:00AM and I didn't feel like playing another two rounds as I was more than tired and had played three rounds out of the five that went the distance (UW Control; Bant Pod; UB Mill).
A pretty lengthy report on the night, followed by changes I would suggest to the build.
Round One – U/W Control
Game One : Turn one Despise takes reveals double Gideon and no guys. Not a lot of action in his hand. Ends up with me having an Inferno Titan and Olivia in play, bashing for the game.
Game Two: Not sure how it happened, but I got behind by a lot. He ends up with double Batterskull on the field and I have to keep attempting to steal the Germ tokens to keep him from bashing. He plays a Jace, I let it resolve. Mills my whole library basically and after he gets up to 37 life I let it go.
- At the point, we’re 1:30 away from end of round –
Cards Out: - 1 Doomblade; - 1 Ractchet Bomb
Cards In: + 2 Ancient Grudge
Game Three: Draw. We played quick, very quick. He had a batterskull on the field, which I used Ancient Grudge on and I got an Olivia out. But five turns wasn’t enough.
Result: 0 – 0 – 1
Round Two – Bant Pod
Game One: I hose him with Liliana turn 5, getting rid of his Thrun that’s on the field. He doesn’t draw a single Pod, and with the removal in hand, it’s a quick and easy game.
Game Two: Just couldn’t draw the answers. Kept a hand I shouldn’t have kept (Cliffs, Mountain, Mountain) with a leak in hand. Didn’t see a blue source. Got hosed.
No change to deck.
Game Three: Probably the most disappointing of all the games. I get a Liliana on the board and start pinging his creatures when they come in. He gets double Sword of Feast and Famine on board. I get rid of his Birds of Paradise he tries to attach it to, and I think I’m in the clear when I get rid of his last card. Like a greedy moron, I tap out for Wurmcoil Engine, thinking I have it in hand. He draws Frost Titan and basically games me with it. Couldn’t conjure up anything having to sac two cards each swing. I get one of the Swords off the board, but I don’t have green to flash back Grudge. Really, really disappointing loss to a deck I shouldn’t lose to.
Result: 0 – 1 – 1
Round Three – U/W Illusions
Game One: This is the one deck I was hoping I would play during the night. Other than having an incredibly good match up against it, I was curious to see how the deck stacked up to the Illusion builds you see floating around and making random top 8s here or there. My opening hand is insane: Land x 3 (two red), Slagstorm, Despise, Doom Blade, Olivia. Needless to say, he got all of three creatures on the board. Dealt me 6 damage, then faded away as I pinged his remaining tokens to death with Olivia. Got him to ten, dealt him 7 damage with a pumped Olivia – then hit him with my second Slagstorm to the face.
Cards Out: - 3 Liliana (I felt I had this game in hand at this point, so I took her out); - 1 Devil’s Play; - 1 Forbidden Alchemy; - 1 Desperate Ravings
Cards In: + 1 Slagstorm; + 2 Geistflame; + 1 Galvanic Blast; + 2 Negate
Game Two: More of the same, really good opening hand and he mulls to six. Starts off with a bear. Plays another bear turn two I play Ratchet Bomb turn two. He gets me down to 14, and it is game over after that. He’s clearly flooded, and I have all the answers. Tries to play Lord of the Unreal, gets leaked. It ends up with him having a bear on the field and me having an Inferno Titan. I’ll take those odds. Negate an Oblivion Ring seals the deal as I bash his face for 9.
Result: 1 – 1 – 1
- At this point, I’m considering dropping. I didn’t count the number of people at this event, so I figured my odds of making the cut were going to be terrible as was. Regardless, since I had nothing better to do, I played on. –
Round Four – Tempered Steel
Game One: Guy was playing Conley’s list from Worlds. Wasn’t too pleased when he went turn 1: Memnite, Plains, Glint Hawk, Mox Opal into turn two Glint Hawk Idol and Inkmoth Nexus. I had no answers for him, he got turn 3 Idol and a turn 4 Tempered Steel. He ends up with two Steel on board, and I end up very dead, having played nothing. I felt my hand had a lot of action too. Apparently not enough.
Cards Out: - 2 Doomblade; - 1 Go for the Throat; - 1 Devil’s Play; - 3 Liliana (She’s far too slow in this matchup, I couldn’t care less about trying to discard him for a deck that dumps its hand); - 1 Desperate Ravings
Cards In: + 2 Geist Flame; + 2 Ancient Grudge; + 1 Slagstorm; + 2 Negate; + 2 Curse of Death’s Hold (terrible choice, happy I didn’t see it).
Game Two: He mulls to six. Then to five. And the look on his face tells me everything I need to know about how this game is going to go. I have all the answers in hand, and keep him off metal craft with Geist Flame and flashback. Eventually he’s sitting on three dispatch in hand with one Inkmoth Nexus on board. Needless to say, Wurmcoil hits the board and he folds.
Game Three: Same thing. He mulls to six, to five (five lands); then to four. Displeased with himself he goes for it anyway. Negate, Mana Leak, Geistflame clear out his early game. Inferno Titan just clears him out. Slagstorm in hand for the just incase.
Result: 2 – 1 – 1
I get into the top 8 somehow, and feel pretty good about my upcoming match. I avoid the guy playing pod, and the guy playing Jun’ya’s Kessig deck. Lucky me, I get drawn against U/B Mill Control.
Game One: After about 20 minutes of posturing, I get an Olivia to stick and despise away his Sphinx. Really stupid deck. Very annoying. Olivia has the mad beats, and I win pretty easily.
Game Two: His deck does what it is supposed to do. He has all the answers for the stuff I try to play. Gets a Jace down,and goes to town on my deck. He ends up milling something like 30 cards before I get an Olivia to beat him. Batterskull drops next turn, and I just don’t have the answers after that. He drownyards me out, and I get very, very annoyed.
Game Three: He sticks to the mill plan. But this next sentence will pretty much sum up the game. “End of your turn, ping Sphinx for one with Olivia – she’s a 4/4. Untap, upkeep – take control of her.” Needless to say, he couldn’t respond with anything. 10 damage to his head the following turn, and it was game.
3 – 1 – 1 against bad beats, and an incredibly lucky topdeck/bad play isn’t terrible.
I would make a few changes to the deck:
Cards Out: - 2 Mountain; - 1 Forbidden Alchemy; - 1 Ratchet Bomb (to the board); - 1 Shimmering Grotto (terrible…terrible card, I don’t care if you’re trying to get green, I’d rather Snapcaster/Grudge than play that card)
Cards In: + 1 Despise (Very, very good); + 2 Island; + 1 Ghost Quarter; + 1 Negate (switching places with Ratchet Bomb).
Here is the list I am currently toying around with. I didn't really follow any other list initially (hell, I actually started with a BUG deck trying to abuse Boneyard Wurm, Splinterfright and Mulch), but have obviously picked up some peices from elsewhere.
Since you are running so many planeswalkers, like to tap out, and run 3 colors, have you thought about tezzeret's gambit? Seems like it'd be nice after a turn 3 liliana, when they think their next creature is safe from her sac ability.
Oh, and I love your decklist, I'm kinda gay for massacre wurm too. I do have to ask, why so many surgical extractions?
Despise is definitely very good right now. Open a hand with one or more and it completely destroys their opening game. Went a game where I went t1 Despise, t2 Despise, t3 Snapcaster Despise and the guy basically folded after that.
In this build, Inferno Titan is the workhorse and it is the Titan you want on the field. If he resolves, he can take over the game himself. And it really kills Moorland Haunt's play to attempt to block you out the whole game.
I have testing this deck extensivly and i really dont think it has it its fun to play but it isnt getting there
Doublepost
Thank you so very much for your nonsense. "I have testing this deck" especially. In the future, before you make idiotic blanket statements, why don't you post your full analysis including testing, adaptations, updates, and results. Or go back to posting in Jund or Sorin's Vengeance ramp. Ironically, I notice from your posts that you are new to the game as well. Good thing you're so capable of bull****ting your way through this forum. Next time, just go elsewhere.
/end rant
Anyways, I've been testing various builds of this that emphasized the "BRu" aspect more than the "URb" that I've done in the past. Suffice to say I was getting miserable results playing the style that Chapin enjoys. I went back to the controlling build for FNM last night with this list-
The builds I was piloting had Phoenix in the main, only three Mana Leaks, and Chandra backing up what was a build with much less emphasis on blue. I got stomped by damn near everything when testing online. I couldn't stand it. Also, I've definitely completely made up my mind on Desperate Ravings. It is garbage to me. Yeah, you get a card deeper, but you have absolutely no control over what else that card does. It drove me insane. I got burned by that card every time I play it. I shouldn't have played it just on the principal that statistically at one point or another it would burn me, but I felt I should at least test it before being "scared off" by stats. I'd be in need of another land ("where it SHINES") and find myself drawing and discarding the land I needed. Seven other options, yeah, I guess that's luck. Then I flash it back and discard the card I needed the black for. Sometimes a card just hates you so I ditched it and have not looked back. Gah. On to the report from last night.
R1 RDW
G1- This game was a bit odd. He gets me to 5 life before running out of cards in hand (thanks Liliana) but I don't have anything outside of a Bloodhall on the board. I have two Snapcasters in hand but feel I should save them for the counterspells in the yard as I don't want him getting his double Phoenixes back with a topdecked burn spell. Oddly enough, his EOT I tap two and put down what I thought was a Think Twice. He says "targeting?" I look and have laid my Snapcaster Mage on the board... Doh. I end up just rolling with it as this is the kind of guy who would try his very hardest to get me a game loss for revealing a card so I flashback Brimstone and hit him for three. Untap, attack. He rips Traitorous Instinct. I think about it... Geistflame my Snapcaster, use the other to Brimstone him for five. Attack, Devil's Play him to death. Hurray for out burning a burn deck.
-1 Negate, -2 Dissipate, -1 Liliana
+2 Flashfreeze, +2 Ancient Grudge
G2- I keep a pretty decent hand of Darkslick shore, Mountain, Sulfur Falls, Think Twice, Geistflame, Flashfreeze, Forbidden Alchemy. He doesn't have a t1 drop. He drops t2 Shrine. Then t3 Shrine. He plays some threats then tosses another Shrine out there. I eventually hit Grudge but by then he has six lands, they're at 9, 7, and 3. Olivia hits the board but he continues to ramp them. I burn out his critters with Olivia begin attacks. EOT he shoots Olivia with the Shrine at 7. I shoot the shrine at 9 with Grudge. He ramps during his turn and plays a one drop. I play Olivia and shoot the one drop. In response, he activates the other Shrine to kill Olivia. Brimstone has morbid and that's the match.
R2 RG Aggro
G1- This game goes very slowly for him. Hes playing a homebrew aggro deck seemingly lacking any t1-3 plays outside of Rampant Growth. He never lands anything big outside of a Falkenrath Marauders but I had an Olivia Voldaren on the board.
-1 Negate, -2 Geistflame, -1 Mana Leak
+2 Flashfreeze, +2 Phantasmal Image
G2- More of the same. This one wasn't even remotely close. Went for the quick Olivia plan and rode it to victory.
R3 UW Illusions
This match was a breeze. Sided Dissipates out for Curse of Death's Hold, nough said.
R4 UW Control
G1- I punted massively here. The rule of thumb against control is definitely patience. Don't ever resolve anything unless you immediately win. For whatever reason, he had five cards in hand and plenty of mana but wasn't doing anything. I pushed to resolve Liliana tapping out in the process. He untaps and plays Karn. Can't really recover from that one.
-3 Slagstorm, -1 Doom Blade, -1 Mana Leak
+1 Negate, +1 Surgical Extraction, +3 Chandra's Phoenix
G2- A very long, very drawn out game. It comes down to him at four with a Sun Titan and Phantasmal Titan. I'm at five with a Geistflame in the yard but only enough mana to replay one of the two Phoenixes I could get back. I decide to try to find either a Snapcaster or a Brimstone Volley. I Alchemy, Think Twice, and flash it back. No Volley and that's the game. I think the misplay came from shooting a Nexus instead of him to get back Phoenixes a couple turns earlier but I was sitting at eight poison at the time.
R5 BUG Combo (?)
G1- He's never really in this game. I saw combo pieces but never saw Ooze. He tried to aggro route but just got smashed by card/ board advantage. Liliana ultimate seals it.
-1 Negate, -2 Doom Blade
+1 Surgical Extraction, +2 Dismember
G2- He mulls to three. Not hard to win.
R6 ID
In hindsight, I should have played this one out. I ended up squeezing into the t8 but the tie breakers were close. Glad that BUG guy won his last round...
T8- Wolf Run Green
G1- He starts of slow lacking a t1/2 accelerant. I make land drops, draw cards, and lay a Liliana that hits his t3 Dungrove. Liliana and counterspells control the game from there. I don't remember how I killed him. He may have just scooped.
-1 Negate, -2 Mana Leak, -1 Slagstorm
+2 Flashfreeze, +2 Phantasmal Image
G2- His t3 Solemn almost gets there as I get mana screwed. I have to Mana Leak a Beast Within aimed at my Island (only other land being Shimmering Grotto). I flash in Snapcaster Mage as a blocker and take some trample beats. The following Solemn and mana ramp begins pummeling me backed by Wolf Run. I play the Phantasmal Image targeting his Solemn to get some mana going. He attacks for two after shooting my Image with WR knocking me to 5. From there I have enough mana to play a Liliana and get rid of it with Flashfreeze backup. From there I counter every thing he plays and Vengeance him out. Whew.
T4 Mono black Infect
G1- He gets stuck on two land, one being Nexus. He resolves an early Plague Stinger and just attacks with those two for a turn or two. I Doom Blade the Nexus and Liliana the Stinger. He draws, doesn't hit a land and scoops.
-2 Doomblade, +2 Dismember
G2- Very similar start for him but he has lands this time. He gets double Stinger and Nexus but I Slagstorm/ Doom Blade his board. He has three cards in hand and continues making land drops but doesn't do anything else while I develop my board. I resolve Olivia with a full grip and Liliana threatening ultimate before he finally concedes.
T2- UB Control
Split.
It's late and we agree that this would take way too long.
All in all, very satisfied with the list. It feels good to be back to the control game after experimenting with the more aggro/ tapout builds. I honestly am not sure how Chapin plans to beat control with that deck but then again, I'm a control player. At worst aggro control. I prefer to do as much as I can during my opponent's turn. I'm not changing anything right now as I didn't really feel like I wanted anything more out of the main/ side. Eh, now that I think about it the Devil's Play was probably the closest thing to a "weak link" but it was really just about Planeswalker control. I'm not cutting it yet but if I had an alternative I would.
EDIT: Currently testing Inferno Titan in place of Devil's Play
Despise is definitely very good right now. Open a hand with one or more and it completely destroys their opening game. Went a game where I went t1 Despise, t2 Despise, t3 Snapcaster Despise and the guy basically folded after that.
In this build, Inferno Titan is the workhorse and it is the Titan you want on the field. If he resolves, he can take over the game himself. And it really kills Moorland Haunt's play to attempt to block you out the whole game.
wow i like your list. and it fits in my meta really well with a 90% agro based. but im not sure about cutting a FA maybe its a better choice cutting 1 desperate ravings instead or a mana leak.
I wanted to apologize for post above i was very frustrated im running the same build as chaplin wasnt try to slander the deck or thread but most of the problems seem to be in the mana base and if anyone could help me to figure out how to post my decklist it would be greatly appreciated
wow i like your list. and it fits in my meta really well with a 90% agro based. but im not sure about cutting a FA maybe its a better choice cutting 1 desperate ravings instead or a mana leak.
While I agreed with that at first, I feel that Desperate Ravings is one of the best cards in this deck. It is fast card draw and gives you a huge advantage. Some guy earlier was complaining about randoming away solid drops, like Snapcaster. But that guy clearly doesn't know how to play Desperate Ravings. Like Chapin said in his deck tech, you play Ravings when you don't have enough of something and want to get more of something. Stuck on lands? Play Ravings.
While Alchemy is a solid choice, I always find myself pitching more than I would like to. Say a Snapcaster because I want a solid 6 drop, or need some form of removal immediately. I think that 3 is just enough to make Alchemy good. That's 6 possible chances to play it.
Given the prevalence of aggro decks, I think you have to play four/five counters here. Anything to put them off their curve.
i love desperate ravings but like dan f said there are times that you cant cast it and even if you discard it because of liliana or FA, the flashback cost its very cheap and FA flashback cost its really high when you need it and im really nit about my snapcasters to use it in a FA, i use it on FA only as my last resort. thats why i sugested to cut one of them. I sugested desparate ravings but we can find a way to get 4 FA and cut something else.
Well i have to note that FA its my favorite card in T2 right now
For Malice. you need to use desperate ravings to find those lands you need no matter what, if u have a nice starting hand like olivia slagstorm snapcaster 2 lands xx, if you dont have lands to play those cards you will lose and thats why i love this deck, i saw friends playing solar flares cursing all day because of lands and cant do anything about it. at first i had the same troubles but then i realized how awesome is desparate ravings.
another thing i was playing mono red and in g1 if they resolve a shrine we are fked even in g2 some times you dont find the ancient grudge and im talking like digging like crazy and lose that game too. any sugestions? i was thinking on disperse as a 2 but then im not sure what to cut.
srry bout my english im from Venezuela. i hope you guys can undestand me well lol
I just agree with twistednic; Desperate Ravings may be good for some, but it has been terrible for me. Everytime I've used it, in almost every U/R/x deck that I've used it in, it has burned me more than it has helped. Maybe it's a case of the card just not liking me, but I've never been a big fan of relying heavily on chance, and Ravings is too random for me. This isn't a matter of me just saying it by looking at the card either; I gave it about 20 games to do well, in two seperate decks a piece with completely different strategies. It has burned me about 75% of the time for both decks, by either forcing me to pitch what I was searching for or disrupting my original line of play.
@ Dan F.: Your version of Think Twice is almost always better than Desperate Ravings. The difference is that your version simply provides additional information. Desperate Ravings has the possibility of disrupting your own game plan. If Ravings had been more like Jace, Memory Adepts +1, then I would have less problems with it, since all cards in the library are unknown so it's all a matter of probability. Once a card gets into your hand, though, you have a chance to begin making plans with that card. Desperate Ravings hinders your ability to accurately form a line of play while consistently drawing cards.
I understand that there are times when DR is really good. But it is situational enough for me to not want to play with it.
I just agree with twistednic; Desperate Ravings may be good for some, but it has been terrible for me. Everytime I've used it, in almost every U/R/x deck that I've used it in, it has burned me more than it has helped. Maybe it's a case of the card just not liking me, but I've never been a big fan of relying heavily on chance, and Ravings is too random for me. This isn't a matter of me just saying it by looking at the card either; I gave it about 20 games to do well, in two seperate decks a piece with completely different strategies. It has burned me about 75% of the time for both decks, by either forcing me to pitch what I was searching for or disrupting my original line of play.
@ Dan F.: Your version of Think Twice is almost always better than Desperate Ravings. The difference is that your version simply provides additional information. Desperate Ravings has the possibility of disrupting your own game plan. If Ravings had been more like Jace, Memory Adepts +1, then I would have less problems with it, since all cards in the library are unknown so it's all a matter of probability. Once a card gets into your hand, though, you have a chance to begin making plans with that card. Desperate Ravings hinders your ability to accurately form a line of play while consistently drawing cards.
I understand that there are times when DR is really good. But it is situational enough for me to not want to play with it.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I understand what you're saying about holding it versus using it and how it isn't always going to be good, but the issue comes down to needing something good or usable at all times. You just cycle away Think Twice then later use it to rebuild. It doesn't disrupt what you're currently up to, or even have the slightest chance of such. It just replaces and replenishes. I almost feel like Ravings is getting greedy with the situation and the role that the card/ slot needs to play. You want to be two cards deeper, but if you value anything in your hand you just can't play it. Dead weight (no pun intended) in hand is the last thing this deck needs to deal with.
Steadily moving back to that controlling role. Just trying to make land drops, control the board, and land efficient but conservatively priced threats. Back when my list was simply Snapcaster Mages/ Batterskulls with everything else being control elements, I had little to no issue combating control decks. I feel like moving the deck away from that towards a more "tap out" role has really diminished it's power in the metagame. I don't believe the hype that control is on the down as a competent control pilot can tear up this metagame (as tournament results as showing). Between UB, UW, and everything in between we need to be able to improve that matchup.
I cut the Volleys, but I'm actually debating moving the Olivias to the board and making space for them. I genuinely loathe tapping mana during my turn- at least Liliana has the power to overtake a game without my opponent having access to such easy answers (not to mention she's cheap). People have adapted to beating Olivia I've noticed (at least the control decks). She still shines against aggro so I really don't want to cut her completely.
Has anyone else had issues with MTGO and randomization of lands? I didn't have many issues with the manabase at FNM but online I am constantly getting hosed and having to mulligan. It's pretty aggravating. I shuffle really well so I honestly don't think that's it. Gah. Well, whatever. I'll try not to let it aggravate me too much.
Nic i play on mtgo and yes the lands are very frustrating maybe we could test online together and bounce ideas off one another my name is thyartismurder abb me if you like im really trying to make this deck work
Yes, I know the decklist is 61, just couldn't make any last minute cuts
Round 1: Mono Black Infect:
Game 1: I'm able to keep his creatures down w/ Incinerates, Go for the Throats. Wurmcoil gets there in a few turns.
SB In: 3 Extractions, 1 Sever the Bloodline, 2 Curse
SB Out: 2 RSZ, 1 Incinerate, 1 Ravings, 1 Doomblade, 1 Slagstorm.
Game 2: He gets a T3 Crusader which the deck can't deal with early. He sb in Clasps (and like an idiot I didn't think that). Game 3 I sb in Grudges
Game 3: T2 Clasp, T3 Clasp and 1 hit from a Nexus he just uses clasp to kill me
(0-1 / 1-2)
Round 2: Mono-U Aggro
We call these kind of decks N.A.D. (Not a Deck). Easy 2-0 Win.
(1-1) / 3-2)
Round 3: UB Control
Game 1: He fights off the best he can, but Liliana and Chandra's Phoenix are too much for him.
Game 2: I try T3 Liliana (countered), T4 Phoenix (Dissipated), T6 Wurmcoil (good...nice!). Wurmcoil gets there.
(2-1 / 5-2)
Round 4: Bant Pod
Game 1: I keep him off everything. Lilliana goes Ultimate on his board of 5 lands and a Pod. He called my deck B.A.D. (Being a dick) lol.
Game 2: He mulls to 5 and after I kill his T2 Pod he concedes...lol He showed me a hand of 2 lands. lol
(3-1 / 7-2)
Round 5: Mono-W Humans (Splash U for counters and Haunt)
Game 1: He drew a TON of cards off 2 Mentors. I finally get a Slagstorm in hand, but I have a Phoenix and a Grave Titan (6 tokens) to his field of beats. I swing with all but Titan, he blocks, I Slagstorm away everything but Titan. He puts up a fight with Fiend Hunter, but it gets a Doom Blade.
Game 2: He just comes out the gate w/ a T1/2 Champion. He has counters for days after that :(.
Game 3: Same as Game 2. I tried resolving Slagstorm, Olivia, Curse, Curse. He had Mana Leak, Mana Leak, Dissipate, Dissipate. lol. Just one of those matches. But man Game 1 was EPIC!
(3-2 / 8-4)
Round 6: Titan Ramp
Game 1: Countered early threat. Snapcasted to counter Titan. RSZ for 10 after Bloodline/Snapcaster beatdown.
Game 2: Olivia beats for a few turns. He Slagstormed, in response, I Snapcasted a Think Twice just to kill Snappy to make Olivia a 4/4, but he had another removal in hand. Inferno Titan gets there.
He's a good friend of mine, so we ID'd.
(3-2-1 / 8-4-1)
Showed up for a Sunday event that didn't kick off, but made some changes, I'll post the list when I get home. I know I moved Phoenix to SB, added Black Sun's Zenith and Dismember to SB and Mimic Vat to sb.
I know what of the things I'm trying to Despise or Gitaxian Probe in a 1 drop spot in the MD. I had good results w/ both during testing. I like Probe alittle more as it gives me a better top deck. But T1 Probe followed by T2 Snapcaster Probe is a nice start as you are +2 on the card draw and have info on the hand.
Desperate Ravings is very much a smart person card. This deck runs very specific answers to very specific threats. There is no question, if you have what you need, dont cast it. If you do not, have at it. Also, in a 5 to 7 card hand, the chances are very low of hitting your "This card is ok but not exactly what I am looking for" card.
The entire game of magic revolves around chance, and this card just utilizes a different form of chance to improve your odds. If you dont like taking risks, this isnt a card for you, but you cant get ahead without putting something on the line.
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"It's like some kind of Voltron... made of elephants??"
Desperate Ravings is very much a smart person card. This deck runs very specific answers to very specific threats. There is no question, if you have what you need, dont cast it. If you do not, have at it. Also, in a 5 to 7 card hand, the chances are very low of hitting your "This card is ok but not exactly what I am looking for" card.
The entire game of magic revolves around chance, and this card just utilizes a different form of chance to improve your odds. If you dont like taking risks, this isnt a card for you, but you cant get ahead without putting something on the line.
it is one of those cards that my very nature says is bad because it adds more chance into a chance driven game. I haven't got a chance to test with it yet but statistically it looks pretty good as long as you have 5+ cards in hand.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Let's say you have 4 lands, a think twice and 2 desperate ravings and only 4 mana available. The opponent just cast wurmcoil engine and has no available mana.
A safe player would play think twice and hope to god they draw a mana leak or a doom blade. To obtain that you would calculate as such:
[(A+B)-(A'+B')]/T Where A and B are the number of doom blades or mana leaks you have in the deck minus the ones already drawn out (in the graveyard) divided by the total number of cards left in your deck.
Now the problem with think twice would be that you are counting on only 1 draw.
If you use desperate ravings instead, you draw 2 cards and remove 1; since drawing the cards are successive and the first draw influences the second, you get this:
[(A+B)-(A'+B')]/T + [(A+B)-(A'+B')]/(T-1)
Which basically increased your chances.
Now the issue most people have is the discarding.
When you draw 2 cards, you will have in this example 1 chance in 7-1+2 = 8 to discard a card you need which is 12.5% (pretty low). Conversely that would mean that the chance that the opponent will be able to successfully and surely cast wurmcoil would be 12.5%.
If you happened to draw the cards you needed twice, this becomes 0%.
Assume we have 3 doom blades and 3 mana leaks in the deck, you used none, it is the 4th turn and you are at your 3rd have drawn a 7 card hand and drew no more than the normal (i.e. 10 cards):
T = 60-10 = 50
Using think twice you will have 6/50 = 12% chances of getting the card you need.
Using desperate ravings, you will have 6/50 chances of getting the card you need (12%), if you drew it, you have 5/49 (10%) chance of getting another (22%) or if you did not draw it, 6/49 = 12.2% (slight increase) up to 24.2% chances of getting the card. I covered the discard part.
Desperate ravings isn't about "drawing" but more about "digging". If your hand already had a way to deal with something, you don't need to use it. That's why it's "desperate"
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Decks:
Modern: (P/R)(P/G) Infect (P/G)(P/R) UWU Fish UWU WB Disruption BW
Standard: WBR Junk Aristocrats WBR WWW Humans WWW
Commander: BBB Marrowgnawer and Friends BBB GGG Thrun Tron GGG WBR Kaalia of the Vast RBW
So I went to FNM this past Friday and I played WRR instead of my URB deck that I have been working on thinking that it wasn’t ready yet. I learned a few things that have changed my mind.
I lost the match vs. UW humans: Angelic Destiny, 2-1 due to terrible draws, (something WRR is vulnerable to due to lack of card draw and filtering). The best card on my side was Slagstorm. It is no secret that this card is fantastic in this meta due to all of the little guys running around in the heavy agro field. Lack of spot removal hurt me late game and not having an answer to the Geist of Saint Traft cost me game 3, no Slagstorm when I needed it and no way to dig for it. His mvp was the Destiny and a timely Mana Leak.
Second match was against a mono white human deck. Again, Slagstorm cleaned house and Galvanic Blast held off his early threats before I just ran over him with Inferno Titan both games. His best play was Oblivion Ring on my titan and that was about it. In short, Slagstorm and spot removal were the best parts of both of our games. (2-0)
Match 3 was against UR Delver. It was an interesting game that made me hate WRR and really appreciate the synergy of the U and R cards in the format right now. He beat me 2-1 but all 3 games were tight. Again, Slagstorm kept me in it and eventually I rode a titan to a W. He beat me with counters, and spot removal fueled by card advantage through Think Twice and Snapcaster Mage. Galvanic Blast was good here but that was about it, I felt like a sitting duck against a much more prepared deck. WRR is just not that good in my opinion. Brimstone Volley is absolutely awesome, so much damage and it can be used as early spot removal against most of the threats in the meta and also close out games with 5 damage, (very good reach). The Snapcasters in that deck were so good for hitting back to back Volleys and reusing Mana Leak (no big surprise there), destroying my tempo and generating card advantage for him. He also used Galvanic Blast to shut down my Inkmoth Nexus and make tempo plays flashing it back with Snapcaster. I really liked his deck.
The long and short of it is that I made some valuable first hand observations of the current meta and the best cards to use in it. The name of the game is REMOVAL. This was a 50+ person FNM with some good players (my remaining games were played against bad players so I left them out). My pal won 1st with his Solar Flare deck that is mostly U/W control, perfect for beating agro, but with room to improve. He is the best player that I know and control is his thing. We discussed the event and we came up with a list that we feel is pretty well equipped to handle our meta. Yours may be different but we outlined the core of the deck (21 cards) that we feel is pretty much non-negotiable:
My pal ran 3 Liliana main deck and he and I both agree, she is a great weapon. He and I also agree that removal is the most important tool right now. Counter magic is also necessary for stopping titans from triggering when removal doesn’t cut it, and obviously for control matches also. Negate is also very good for stopping the key spells that either develop tempo (ie: Rampant Growth / Sphere of the Suns) or for stopping big plays such as spot removal, planeswalkers and counter magic. This is what I have come up with for a deck list, I am still adjusting the sideboard. I am not sure about the land mix though. Maybe you guys can help me out:
i'd drop the Chandra for Olivia, as for your meta i think she's better (could be wrong tho: you decide)
your list looks solid but why 1 shock...why not just 3 blasts?
other than that i like it. Im assuming the 2 negates is the same thing as before, meta call. in my meta it would be 1 and 1 removal with the other negate in the board but makes sense.
I can't agree more about Desperate Ravings being a great card. I think people are just quick to dismiss it because of the discard a card at random clause. You have to use it sparingly and if you have the card in your hand you need, don't use it. It really is as simple as that.
It's not a replacement for Think Twice, it's not a replacement for Divination. It's not a replacement for Ponder. It's a completely different type of card.
Imagine this card: 1R: Draw 2 cards, then your opponent chooses a card from your hand, discard that card.
That's how too many people read that card. That's not even close to how it is.
Imagine a different card that reads: 1R: Draw 2 cards, then discard a card from your hand.
Yes this is what we all wish it said, but it's really not that far from being the same as that.
You 4 lands in play, you have drawn 2 lands in a row so you have a hand with 1 Ravings, 1 Precursor Golem, 1 Olivia and 2 lands. What do you do? The answer is not cast the Ravings, the answer is Olivia, then Precursor, then if you have no more gas, you still have the Ravings to find another answer.
A different scenario: Turn 3, you have 2 lands in play, Your hand is Ravings (that you just drew), Olivia, Slagstorm, and 2 Forbidden Alchemy. You can't cast the Slagstorm, can't cast the Olivia, can't cast the Forbidden Alchemy and you really need a 3rd land. Chances are you will not draw 1 land 1 other card and discard the land. Yes it can happen, but more often than not it won't.
... Sorin Markov's second ability definitely says "Target opponent's life total becomes 10". Are you purely speculating about these matchups or did you actually play them?
A couple of questions: how has Grimgrin been working out for you? It seems that it would only work in this list with Reassembling Skeletons. Also, when do you really want to use Act of Aggression? It doesn't seem to do much, and typically this deck needs two swings to kill people, so that one swing might not be enough. I just feel like you have extra cards in the deck that could be other more useful things (like Snapcaster Mage, draw, or counterspells). I would probably go -1x Life's Finale, -1x Act of Aggression, -1x Vengeful Pharoh, -1x something, +1x Doomblade, +3x Snapcaster Mage. I understand if you are using them in a different deck and don't feel like moving them. But when you play the deck for a tournament, have the spots available for Snapcaster (can be another sac for Grimgrin).
@ het8117: RedPenguin's list may look random, but when you think about it, most of the cards do the same thing. So while it does have a ton of 1-of's, it actually adds consitency to the deck because of Snapcaster Mage. The only difficulty is knowing which ones should only be used in certain situations.
@ RedPenguin: I like the list, but I don't know if Unburial Rites is worth it. We don't have any great ways of abusing it, and I think you would be fine without it. I would rather have Liliana/extra Snapcaster/extra land/extra Disperse/etc.
Edit: didn't see that you wanted game results I'll post 4 matches from testing from the other night if my memory doesn't fail me.
Grimgrin is dependant on either skeletons or bloodline keeper, but there are more of them than there are of him, and they stand alone well. He is just a one of and an experiment for now, but he is such a heavy hitter and his ability to get enemy titans out of the way is pretty sweet. As far as Act of Aggression, again it's a singleton which means it doesn't clog up the hand. The best uses I have found are when I can take one attacking creature to trade with another. Like stealing the angel token to block a problematic Geist of Saint Traft, or taking a Mirran Crusader to jump in front of a Hero of Bladehold.
EDIT: @Twistednic: You are correct, and I (and my testing partner) are really really really dumb... lol. Though this still isn't as bad a mistake as Ghost Quarter, where I and most of the people I play with had been bringing out lands into play tapped since Dissension, assuming that it worked that way without actually reading it. It wasn'tuntil seeing the Innistrad version that I noticed it didn't actually say tapped, and even then I went back to see if it was an errata lol.
Standard
BWGRock RampBWG
Modern
UBRGLiving EndUBRG
Legacy
BWGJunkbladeBWG
My Sales Thread
I WANT YOUR SORINS
“My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.” - Jack Layton, RIP
3 Olivia Voldaren
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Inferno Titan
Planeswalker
3 Liliana of the Veil
Artifact
1 Ratchet Bomb
Instants
4 Mana Leak
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Desperate Ravings
2 Doom Blade
1 Go for the Throat
Sorcery
3 Slagstorm
2 Despise
1 Devil's Play
5 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Island
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Drowned Catacomb
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Shimmering Grotto
2 Precursor Golem
2 Curse of Death's Hold
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Geistflame
2 Negate
2 Flashfreeze
1 Galvanic Blast
1 Slagstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
Chapin's build, more or less. Wanted to make a few more changes to it, but I forgot a set of cards I wanted to add in, including an additional Despise, so I had to stick with a basically stock list. The build is solid, given the local meta - two people playing steel, two people playing UW tokens (with counters, not like the aggro list from worlds), UW illusions. I felt I had a strong matchup against RG Kessig (the guy was playing Jun'ya's list card for card. No imagination, which is probably why he lost in the top four. Very easy when everyone knows the list card for card).
Played five rounds and scooped my friend into the final. At this point, it was close to 1:00AM and I didn't feel like playing another two rounds as I was more than tired and had played three rounds out of the five that went the distance (UW Control; Bant Pod; UB Mill).
A pretty lengthy report on the night, followed by changes I would suggest to the build.
Round One – U/W Control
Game One : Turn one Despise takes reveals double Gideon and no guys. Not a lot of action in his hand. Ends up with me having an Inferno Titan and Olivia in play, bashing for the game.
Cards Out: - 3 Slagstorm; - 1 Desperate Ravings; - 1 Forbidden Alchemy
Cards In: + 2 Negate; + 2 Precursor Golem; + 1 Surgical Extraction
Game Two: Not sure how it happened, but I got behind by a lot. He ends up with double Batterskull on the field and I have to keep attempting to steal the Germ tokens to keep him from bashing. He plays a Jace, I let it resolve. Mills my whole library basically and after he gets up to 37 life I let it go.
- At the point, we’re 1:30 away from end of round –
Cards Out: - 1 Doomblade; - 1 Ractchet Bomb
Cards In: + 2 Ancient Grudge
Game Three: Draw. We played quick, very quick. He had a batterskull on the field, which I used Ancient Grudge on and I got an Olivia out. But five turns wasn’t enough.
Result: 0 – 0 – 1
Round Two – Bant Pod
Game One: I hose him with Liliana turn 5, getting rid of his Thrun that’s on the field. He doesn’t draw a single Pod, and with the removal in hand, it’s a quick and easy game.
Cards Out: - 1 Forbidden Alchemy; - 1 Desperate Ravings; - 1 Ratchet Bomb; - 1 Mana Leak
Cards In: + 2 Ancient Grudge; + 2 Negate
Game Two: Just couldn’t draw the answers. Kept a hand I shouldn’t have kept (Cliffs, Mountain, Mountain) with a leak in hand. Didn’t see a blue source. Got hosed.
No change to deck.
Game Three: Probably the most disappointing of all the games. I get a Liliana on the board and start pinging his creatures when they come in. He gets double Sword of Feast and Famine on board. I get rid of his Birds of Paradise he tries to attach it to, and I think I’m in the clear when I get rid of his last card. Like a greedy moron, I tap out for Wurmcoil Engine, thinking I have it in hand. He draws Frost Titan and basically games me with it. Couldn’t conjure up anything having to sac two cards each swing. I get one of the Swords off the board, but I don’t have green to flash back Grudge. Really, really disappointing loss to a deck I shouldn’t lose to.
Result: 0 – 1 – 1
Round Three – U/W Illusions
Game One: This is the one deck I was hoping I would play during the night. Other than having an incredibly good match up against it, I was curious to see how the deck stacked up to the Illusion builds you see floating around and making random top 8s here or there. My opening hand is insane: Land x 3 (two red), Slagstorm, Despise, Doom Blade, Olivia. Needless to say, he got all of three creatures on the board. Dealt me 6 damage, then faded away as I pinged his remaining tokens to death with Olivia. Got him to ten, dealt him 7 damage with a pumped Olivia – then hit him with my second Slagstorm to the face.
Cards Out: - 3 Liliana (I felt I had this game in hand at this point, so I took her out); - 1 Devil’s Play; - 1 Forbidden Alchemy; - 1 Desperate Ravings
Cards In: + 1 Slagstorm; + 2 Geistflame; + 1 Galvanic Blast; + 2 Negate
Game Two: More of the same, really good opening hand and he mulls to six. Starts off with a bear. Plays another bear turn two I play Ratchet Bomb turn two. He gets me down to 14, and it is game over after that. He’s clearly flooded, and I have all the answers. Tries to play Lord of the Unreal, gets leaked. It ends up with him having a bear on the field and me having an Inferno Titan. I’ll take those odds. Negate an Oblivion Ring seals the deal as I bash his face for 9.
Result: 1 – 1 – 1
- At this point, I’m considering dropping. I didn’t count the number of people at this event, so I figured my odds of making the cut were going to be terrible as was. Regardless, since I had nothing better to do, I played on. –
Round Four – Tempered Steel
Game One: Guy was playing Conley’s list from Worlds. Wasn’t too pleased when he went turn 1: Memnite, Plains, Glint Hawk, Mox Opal into turn two Glint Hawk Idol and Inkmoth Nexus. I had no answers for him, he got turn 3 Idol and a turn 4 Tempered Steel. He ends up with two Steel on board, and I end up very dead, having played nothing. I felt my hand had a lot of action too. Apparently not enough.
Cards Out: - 2 Doomblade; - 1 Go for the Throat; - 1 Devil’s Play; - 3 Liliana (She’s far too slow in this matchup, I couldn’t care less about trying to discard him for a deck that dumps its hand); - 1 Desperate Ravings
Cards In: + 2 Geist Flame; + 2 Ancient Grudge; + 1 Slagstorm; + 2 Negate; + 2 Curse of Death’s Hold (terrible choice, happy I didn’t see it).
Game Two: He mulls to six. Then to five. And the look on his face tells me everything I need to know about how this game is going to go. I have all the answers in hand, and keep him off metal craft with Geist Flame and flashback. Eventually he’s sitting on three dispatch in hand with one Inkmoth Nexus on board. Needless to say, Wurmcoil hits the board and he folds.
Game Three: Same thing. He mulls to six, to five (five lands); then to four. Displeased with himself he goes for it anyway. Negate, Mana Leak, Geistflame clear out his early game. Inferno Titan just clears him out. Slagstorm in hand for the just incase.
Result: 2 – 1 – 1
I get into the top 8 somehow, and feel pretty good about my upcoming match. I avoid the guy playing pod, and the guy playing Jun’ya’s Kessig deck. Lucky me, I get drawn against U/B Mill Control.
Game One: After about 20 minutes of posturing, I get an Olivia to stick and despise away his Sphinx. Really stupid deck. Very annoying. Olivia has the mad beats, and I win pretty easily.
Cards Out: - 3 Slagstorm; - 1 Desperate Ravings; - 1 Forbidden Alchemy
Cards In: + 2 Negate; + 1 Surgical Extraction; + 2 Precursor Golem
Game Two: His deck does what it is supposed to do. He has all the answers for the stuff I try to play. Gets a Jace down,and goes to town on my deck. He ends up milling something like 30 cards before I get an Olivia to beat him. Batterskull drops next turn, and I just don’t have the answers after that. He drownyards me out, and I get very, very annoyed.
Cards Out: - 2 Desperate Ravings
Cards In: + 2 Ancient Grudge
Game Three: He sticks to the mill plan. But this next sentence will pretty much sum up the game. “End of your turn, ping Sphinx for one with Olivia – she’s a 4/4. Untap, upkeep – take control of her.” Needless to say, he couldn’t respond with anything. 10 damage to his head the following turn, and it was game.
3 – 1 – 1 against bad beats, and an incredibly lucky topdeck/bad play isn’t terrible.
I would make a few changes to the deck:
Cards Out: - 2 Mountain; - 1 Forbidden Alchemy; - 1 Ratchet Bomb (to the board); - 1 Shimmering Grotto (terrible…terrible card, I don’t care if you’re trying to get green, I’d rather Snapcaster/Grudge than play that card)
Cards In: + 1 Despise (Very, very good); + 2 Island; + 1 Ghost Quarter; + 1 Negate (switching places with Ratchet Bomb).
I have testing this deck extensivly and i really dont think it has it its fun to play but it isnt getting there
Doublepost
Since you are running so many planeswalkers, like to tap out, and run 3 colors, have you thought about tezzeret's gambit? Seems like it'd be nice after a turn 3 liliana, when they think their next creature is safe from her sac ability.
Oh, and I love your decklist, I'm kinda gay for massacre wurm too. I do have to ask, why so many surgical extractions?
3 Olivia Voldaren
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Inferno Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Planeswalker
3 Liliana of the Veil
Instants
4 Mana Leak
4 Desperate Ravings
3 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Doom Blade
1 Go for the Throat
1 Negate
Sorcery
3 Slagstorm
3 Despise
1 Devil's Play
4 Mountain
3 Island
2 Swamp
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Drowned Catacomb
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Shimmering Grotto
2 Precursor Golem
2 Curse of Death's Hold
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Geistflame
2 Flashfreeze
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Negate
1 Galvanic Blast
1 Slagstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
Despise is definitely very good right now. Open a hand with one or more and it completely destroys their opening game. Went a game where I went t1 Despise, t2 Despise, t3 Snapcaster Despise and the guy basically folded after that.
In this build, Inferno Titan is the workhorse and it is the Titan you want on the field. If he resolves, he can take over the game himself. And it really kills Moorland Haunt's play to attempt to block you out the whole game.
Thank you so very much for your nonsense. "I have testing this deck" especially. In the future, before you make idiotic blanket statements, why don't you post your full analysis including testing, adaptations, updates, and results. Or go back to posting in Jund or Sorin's Vengeance ramp. Ironically, I notice from your posts that you are new to the game as well. Good thing you're so capable of bull****ting your way through this forum. Next time, just go elsewhere.
/end rant
Anyways, I've been testing various builds of this that emphasized the "BRu" aspect more than the "URb" that I've done in the past. Suffice to say I was getting miserable results playing the style that Chapin enjoys. I went back to the controlling build for FNM last night with this list-
2 Olivia Voldaren
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Think Twice
3 Brimstone Volley
3 Mana Leak
3 Slagstorm
2 Dissipate
2 Geistflame
2 Doom Blade
1 Negate
1 Devil's Play
1 Sorin's Vengeance
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Stensia Bloodhall
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Drowned Catacomb
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Shimmering Grotto
4 Mountain
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Negate
2 Dismember
2 Curse of Death's Hold
2 Flashfreeze
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Phantasmal Image
3 Chandra's Phoenix
The builds I was piloting had Phoenix in the main, only three Mana Leaks, and Chandra backing up what was a build with much less emphasis on blue. I got stomped by damn near everything when testing online. I couldn't stand it. Also, I've definitely completely made up my mind on Desperate Ravings. It is garbage to me. Yeah, you get a card deeper, but you have absolutely no control over what else that card does. It drove me insane. I got burned by that card every time I play it. I shouldn't have played it just on the principal that statistically at one point or another it would burn me, but I felt I should at least test it before being "scared off" by stats. I'd be in need of another land ("where it SHINES") and find myself drawing and discarding the land I needed. Seven other options, yeah, I guess that's luck. Then I flash it back and discard the card I needed the black for. Sometimes a card just hates you so I ditched it and have not looked back. Gah. On to the report from last night.
R1 RDW
G1- This game was a bit odd. He gets me to 5 life before running out of cards in hand (thanks Liliana) but I don't have anything outside of a Bloodhall on the board. I have two Snapcasters in hand but feel I should save them for the counterspells in the yard as I don't want him getting his double Phoenixes back with a topdecked burn spell. Oddly enough, his EOT I tap two and put down what I thought was a Think Twice. He says "targeting?" I look and have laid my Snapcaster Mage on the board... Doh. I end up just rolling with it as this is the kind of guy who would try his very hardest to get me a game loss for revealing a card so I flashback Brimstone and hit him for three. Untap, attack. He rips Traitorous Instinct. I think about it... Geistflame my Snapcaster, use the other to Brimstone him for five. Attack, Devil's Play him to death. Hurray for out burning a burn deck.
-1 Negate, -2 Dissipate, -1 Liliana
+2 Flashfreeze, +2 Ancient Grudge
G2- I keep a pretty decent hand of Darkslick shore, Mountain, Sulfur Falls, Think Twice, Geistflame, Flashfreeze, Forbidden Alchemy. He doesn't have a t1 drop. He drops t2 Shrine. Then t3 Shrine. He plays some threats then tosses another Shrine out there. I eventually hit Grudge but by then he has six lands, they're at 9, 7, and 3. Olivia hits the board but he continues to ramp them. I burn out his critters with Olivia begin attacks. EOT he shoots Olivia with the Shrine at 7. I shoot the shrine at 9 with Grudge. He ramps during his turn and plays a one drop. I play Olivia and shoot the one drop. In response, he activates the other Shrine to kill Olivia. Brimstone has morbid and that's the match.
R2 RG Aggro
G1- This game goes very slowly for him. Hes playing a homebrew aggro deck seemingly lacking any t1-3 plays outside of Rampant Growth. He never lands anything big outside of a Falkenrath Marauders but I had an Olivia Voldaren on the board.
-1 Negate, -2 Geistflame, -1 Mana Leak
+2 Flashfreeze, +2 Phantasmal Image
G2- More of the same. This one wasn't even remotely close. Went for the quick Olivia plan and rode it to victory.
R3 UW Illusions
This match was a breeze. Sided Dissipates out for Curse of Death's Hold, nough said.
R4 UW Control
G1- I punted massively here. The rule of thumb against control is definitely patience. Don't ever resolve anything unless you immediately win. For whatever reason, he had five cards in hand and plenty of mana but wasn't doing anything. I pushed to resolve Liliana tapping out in the process. He untaps and plays Karn. Can't really recover from that one.
-3 Slagstorm, -1 Doom Blade, -1 Mana Leak
+1 Negate, +1 Surgical Extraction, +3 Chandra's Phoenix
G2- A very long, very drawn out game. It comes down to him at four with a Sun Titan and Phantasmal Titan. I'm at five with a Geistflame in the yard but only enough mana to replay one of the two Phoenixes I could get back. I decide to try to find either a Snapcaster or a Brimstone Volley. I Alchemy, Think Twice, and flash it back. No Volley and that's the game. I think the misplay came from shooting a Nexus instead of him to get back Phoenixes a couple turns earlier but I was sitting at eight poison at the time.
R5 BUG Combo (?)
G1- He's never really in this game. I saw combo pieces but never saw Ooze. He tried to aggro route but just got smashed by card/ board advantage. Liliana ultimate seals it.
-1 Negate, -2 Doom Blade
+1 Surgical Extraction, +2 Dismember
G2- He mulls to three. Not hard to win.
R6 ID
In hindsight, I should have played this one out. I ended up squeezing into the t8 but the tie breakers were close. Glad that BUG guy won his last round...
T8- Wolf Run Green
G1- He starts of slow lacking a t1/2 accelerant. I make land drops, draw cards, and lay a Liliana that hits his t3 Dungrove. Liliana and counterspells control the game from there. I don't remember how I killed him. He may have just scooped.
-1 Negate, -2 Mana Leak, -1 Slagstorm
+2 Flashfreeze, +2 Phantasmal Image
G2- His t3 Solemn almost gets there as I get mana screwed. I have to Mana Leak a Beast Within aimed at my Island (only other land being Shimmering Grotto). I flash in Snapcaster Mage as a blocker and take some trample beats. The following Solemn and mana ramp begins pummeling me backed by Wolf Run. I play the Phantasmal Image targeting his Solemn to get some mana going. He attacks for two after shooting my Image with WR knocking me to 5. From there I have enough mana to play a Liliana and get rid of it with Flashfreeze backup. From there I counter every thing he plays and Vengeance him out. Whew.
T4 Mono black Infect
G1- He gets stuck on two land, one being Nexus. He resolves an early Plague Stinger and just attacks with those two for a turn or two. I Doom Blade the Nexus and Liliana the Stinger. He draws, doesn't hit a land and scoops.
-2 Doomblade, +2 Dismember
G2- Very similar start for him but he has lands this time. He gets double Stinger and Nexus but I Slagstorm/ Doom Blade his board. He has three cards in hand and continues making land drops but doesn't do anything else while I develop my board. I resolve Olivia with a full grip and Liliana threatening ultimate before he finally concedes.
T2- UB Control
Split.
It's late and we agree that this would take way too long.
All in all, very satisfied with the list. It feels good to be back to the control game after experimenting with the more aggro/ tapout builds. I honestly am not sure how Chapin plans to beat control with that deck but then again, I'm a control player. At worst aggro control. I prefer to do as much as I can during my opponent's turn. I'm not changing anything right now as I didn't really feel like I wanted anything more out of the main/ side. Eh, now that I think about it the Devil's Play was probably the closest thing to a "weak link" but it was really just about Planeswalker control. I'm not cutting it yet but if I had an alternative I would.
EDIT: Currently testing Inferno Titan in place of Devil's Play
wow i like your list. and it fits in my meta really well with a 90% agro based. but im not sure about cutting a FA maybe its a better choice cutting 1 desperate ravings instead or a mana leak.
While I agreed with that at first, I feel that Desperate Ravings is one of the best cards in this deck. It is fast card draw and gives you a huge advantage. Some guy earlier was complaining about randoming away solid drops, like Snapcaster. But that guy clearly doesn't know how to play Desperate Ravings. Like Chapin said in his deck tech, you play Ravings when you don't have enough of something and want to get more of something. Stuck on lands? Play Ravings.
While Alchemy is a solid choice, I always find myself pitching more than I would like to. Say a Snapcaster because I want a solid 6 drop, or need some form of removal immediately. I think that 3 is just enough to make Alchemy good. That's 6 possible chances to play it.
Given the prevalence of aggro decks, I think you have to play four/five counters here. Anything to put them off their curve.
Well i have to note that FA its my favorite card in T2 right now
For Malice. you need to use desperate ravings to find those lands you need no matter what, if u have a nice starting hand like olivia slagstorm snapcaster 2 lands xx, if you dont have lands to play those cards you will lose and thats why i love this deck, i saw friends playing solar flares cursing all day because of lands and cant do anything about it. at first i had the same troubles but then i realized how awesome is desparate ravings.
another thing i was playing mono red and in g1 if they resolve a shrine we are fked even in g2 some times you dont find the ancient grudge and im talking like digging like crazy and lose that game too. any sugestions? i was thinking on disperse as a 2 but then im not sure what to cut.
srry bout my english im from Venezuela. i hope you guys can undestand me well lol
@ Dan F.: Your version of Think Twice is almost always better than Desperate Ravings. The difference is that your version simply provides additional information. Desperate Ravings has the possibility of disrupting your own game plan. If Ravings had been more like Jace, Memory Adepts +1, then I would have less problems with it, since all cards in the library are unknown so it's all a matter of probability. Once a card gets into your hand, though, you have a chance to begin making plans with that card. Desperate Ravings hinders your ability to accurately form a line of play while consistently drawing cards.
I understand that there are times when DR is really good. But it is situational enough for me to not want to play with it.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I understand what you're saying about holding it versus using it and how it isn't always going to be good, but the issue comes down to needing something good or usable at all times. You just cycle away Think Twice then later use it to rebuild. It doesn't disrupt what you're currently up to, or even have the slightest chance of such. It just replaces and replenishes. I almost feel like Ravings is getting greedy with the situation and the role that the card/ slot needs to play. You want to be two cards deeper, but if you value anything in your hand you just can't play it. Dead weight (no pun intended) in hand is the last thing this deck needs to deal with.
Updated list
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Batterskull
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Think Twice
4 Mana Leak
3 Slagstorm
2 Geistflame
2 Doom Blade
2 Dissipate
1 Negate
1 Sorin's Vengeance
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Stensia Bloodhall
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Dragonskull Summit
4 Island
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Negate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Dismember
2 Curse of Death's Hold
2 Flashfreeze
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Ratchet Bomb
Steadily moving back to that controlling role. Just trying to make land drops, control the board, and land efficient but conservatively priced threats. Back when my list was simply Snapcaster Mages/ Batterskulls with everything else being control elements, I had little to no issue combating control decks. I feel like moving the deck away from that towards a more "tap out" role has really diminished it's power in the metagame. I don't believe the hype that control is on the down as a competent control pilot can tear up this metagame (as tournament results as showing). Between UB, UW, and everything in between we need to be able to improve that matchup.
I cut the Volleys, but I'm actually debating moving the Olivias to the board and making space for them. I genuinely loathe tapping mana during my turn- at least Liliana has the power to overtake a game without my opponent having access to such easy answers (not to mention she's cheap). People have adapted to beating Olivia I've noticed (at least the control decks). She still shines against aggro so I really don't want to cut her completely.
Has anyone else had issues with MTGO and randomization of lands? I didn't have many issues with the manabase at FNM but online I am constantly getting hosed and having to mulligan. It's pretty aggravating. I shuffle really well so I honestly don't think that's it. Gah. Well, whatever. I'll try not to let it aggravate me too much.
2 Olivia Voldaren
1 Bloodline Keeper
1 Grave Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Snapcaster Mages
2 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Doom Blade
1 Go for the Throat
2 Red Sun's Zenith
3 Slagstorm
3 Incinerate
3 Desperate Ravings
2 Think Twice
2 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Mana Leak
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Drowned Catacomb
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Shimmering Grotto
4 Mountain
3 Swamp
2 Island
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Negate
1 Flashfreeze
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Incinerate
1 Slagstorm
1 Sever the Bloodline
2 Curse of Death's Hold
Yes, I know the decklist is 61, just couldn't make any last minute cuts
Round 1: Mono Black Infect:
Game 1: I'm able to keep his creatures down w/ Incinerates, Go for the Throats. Wurmcoil gets there in a few turns.
SB In: 3 Extractions, 1 Sever the Bloodline, 2 Curse
SB Out: 2 RSZ, 1 Incinerate, 1 Ravings, 1 Doomblade, 1 Slagstorm.
Game 2: He gets a T3 Crusader which the deck can't deal with early. He sb in Clasps (and like an idiot I didn't think that). Game 3 I sb in Grudges
Game 3: T2 Clasp, T3 Clasp and 1 hit from a Nexus he just uses clasp to kill me
(0-1 / 1-2)
Round 2: Mono-U Aggro
We call these kind of decks N.A.D. (Not a Deck). Easy 2-0 Win.
(1-1) / 3-2)
Round 3: UB Control
Game 1: He fights off the best he can, but Liliana and Chandra's Phoenix are too much for him.
Game 2: I try T3 Liliana (countered), T4 Phoenix (Dissipated), T6 Wurmcoil (good...nice!). Wurmcoil gets there.
(2-1 / 5-2)
Round 4: Bant Pod
Game 1: I keep him off everything. Lilliana goes Ultimate on his board of 5 lands and a Pod. He called my deck B.A.D. (Being a dick) lol.
Game 2: He mulls to 5 and after I kill his T2 Pod he concedes...lol He showed me a hand of 2 lands. lol
(3-1 / 7-2)
Round 5: Mono-W Humans (Splash U for counters and Haunt)
Game 1: He drew a TON of cards off 2 Mentors. I finally get a Slagstorm in hand, but I have a Phoenix and a Grave Titan (6 tokens) to his field of beats. I swing with all but Titan, he blocks, I Slagstorm away everything but Titan. He puts up a fight with Fiend Hunter, but it gets a Doom Blade.
Game 2: He just comes out the gate w/ a T1/2 Champion. He has counters for days after that :(.
Game 3: Same as Game 2. I tried resolving Slagstorm, Olivia, Curse, Curse. He had Mana Leak, Mana Leak, Dissipate, Dissipate. lol. Just one of those matches. But man Game 1 was EPIC!
(3-2 / 8-4)
Round 6: Titan Ramp
Game 1: Countered early threat. Snapcasted to counter Titan. RSZ for 10 after Bloodline/Snapcaster beatdown.
Game 2: Olivia beats for a few turns. He Slagstormed, in response, I Snapcasted a Think Twice just to kill Snappy to make Olivia a 4/4, but he had another removal in hand. Inferno Titan gets there.
He's a good friend of mine, so we ID'd.
(3-2-1 / 8-4-1)
Showed up for a Sunday event that didn't kick off, but made some changes, I'll post the list when I get home. I know I moved Phoenix to SB, added Black Sun's Zenith and Dismember to SB and Mimic Vat to sb.
I know what of the things I'm trying to Despise or Gitaxian Probe in a 1 drop spot in the MD. I had good results w/ both during testing. I like Probe alittle more as it gives me a better top deck. But T1 Probe followed by T2 Snapcaster Probe is a nice start as you are +2 on the card draw and have info on the hand.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
The entire game of magic revolves around chance, and this card just utilizes a different form of chance to improve your odds. If you dont like taking risks, this isnt a card for you, but you cant get ahead without putting something on the line.
Credit goes to Brofoux for the Sig pic.
Current Modern Deck
Black Licorice
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11006564#post11006564
it is one of those cards that my very nature says is bad because it adds more chance into a chance driven game. I haven't got a chance to test with it yet but statistically it looks pretty good as long as you have 5+ cards in hand.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
A safe player would play think twice and hope to god they draw a mana leak or a doom blade. To obtain that you would calculate as such:
[(A+B)-(A'+B')]/T Where A and B are the number of doom blades or mana leaks you have in the deck minus the ones already drawn out (in the graveyard) divided by the total number of cards left in your deck.
Now the problem with think twice would be that you are counting on only 1 draw.
If you use desperate ravings instead, you draw 2 cards and remove 1; since drawing the cards are successive and the first draw influences the second, you get this:
[(A+B)-(A'+B')]/T + [(A+B)-(A'+B')]/(T-1)
Which basically increased your chances.
Now the issue most people have is the discarding.
When you draw 2 cards, you will have in this example 1 chance in 7-1+2 = 8 to discard a card you need which is 12.5% (pretty low). Conversely that would mean that the chance that the opponent will be able to successfully and surely cast wurmcoil would be 12.5%.
If you happened to draw the cards you needed twice, this becomes 0%.
Assume we have 3 doom blades and 3 mana leaks in the deck, you used none, it is the 4th turn and you are at your 3rd have drawn a 7 card hand and drew no more than the normal (i.e. 10 cards):
T = 60-10 = 50
Using think twice you will have 6/50 = 12% chances of getting the card you need.
Using desperate ravings, you will have 6/50 chances of getting the card you need (12%), if you drew it, you have 5/49 (10%) chance of getting another (22%) or if you did not draw it, 6/49 = 12.2% (slight increase) up to 24.2% chances of getting the card. I covered the discard part.
Desperate ravings isn't about "drawing" but more about "digging". If your hand already had a way to deal with something, you don't need to use it. That's why it's "desperate"
(P/R)(P/G) Infect (P/G)(P/R)
UWU Fish UWU
WB Disruption BW
Standard:
WBR Junk Aristocrats WBR
WWW Humans WWW
Commander:
BBB Marrowgnawer and Friends BBB
GGG Thrun Tron GGG
WBR Kaalia of the Vast RBW
Why is desperate ravings a good card?
I lost the match vs. UW humans: Angelic Destiny, 2-1 due to terrible draws, (something WRR is vulnerable to due to lack of card draw and filtering). The best card on my side was Slagstorm. It is no secret that this card is fantastic in this meta due to all of the little guys running around in the heavy agro field. Lack of spot removal hurt me late game and not having an answer to the Geist of Saint Traft cost me game 3, no Slagstorm when I needed it and no way to dig for it. His mvp was the Destiny and a timely Mana Leak.
Second match was against a mono white human deck. Again, Slagstorm cleaned house and Galvanic Blast held off his early threats before I just ran over him with Inferno Titan both games. His best play was Oblivion Ring on my titan and that was about it. In short, Slagstorm and spot removal were the best parts of both of our games. (2-0)
Match 3 was against UR Delver. It was an interesting game that made me hate WRR and really appreciate the synergy of the U and R cards in the format right now. He beat me 2-1 but all 3 games were tight. Again, Slagstorm kept me in it and eventually I rode a titan to a W. He beat me with counters, and spot removal fueled by card advantage through Think Twice and Snapcaster Mage. Galvanic Blast was good here but that was about it, I felt like a sitting duck against a much more prepared deck. WRR is just not that good in my opinion. Brimstone Volley is absolutely awesome, so much damage and it can be used as early spot removal against most of the threats in the meta and also close out games with 5 damage, (very good reach). The Snapcasters in that deck were so good for hitting back to back Volleys and reusing Mana Leak (no big surprise there), destroying my tempo and generating card advantage for him. He also used Galvanic Blast to shut down my Inkmoth Nexus and make tempo plays flashing it back with Snapcaster. I really liked his deck.
The long and short of it is that I made some valuable first hand observations of the current meta and the best cards to use in it. The name of the game is REMOVAL. This was a 50+ person FNM with some good players (my remaining games were played against bad players so I left them out). My pal won 1st with his Solar Flare deck that is mostly U/W control, perfect for beating agro, but with room to improve. He is the best player that I know and control is his thing. We discussed the event and we came up with a list that we feel is pretty well equipped to handle our meta. Yours may be different but we outlined the core of the deck (21 cards) that we feel is pretty much non-negotiable:
My pal ran 3 Liliana main deck and he and I both agree, she is a great weapon. He and I also agree that removal is the most important tool right now. Counter magic is also necessary for stopping titans from triggering when removal doesn’t cut it, and obviously for control matches also. Negate is also very good for stopping the key spells that either develop tempo (ie: Rampant Growth / Sphere of the Suns) or for stopping big plays such as spot removal, planeswalkers and counter magic. This is what I have come up with for a deck list, I am still adjusting the sideboard. I am not sure about the land mix though. Maybe you guys can help me out:
your list looks solid but why 1 shock...why not just 3 blasts?
other than that i like it. Im assuming the 2 negates is the same thing as before, meta call. in my meta it would be 1 and 1 removal with the other negate in the board but makes sense.
Thanks Hero's of the Plane
Modern
-------------
xRxAffinityxRx
It's not a replacement for Think Twice, it's not a replacement for Divination. It's not a replacement for Ponder. It's a completely different type of card.
Imagine this card: 1R: Draw 2 cards, then your opponent chooses a card from your hand, discard that card.
That's how too many people read that card. That's not even close to how it is.
Imagine a different card that reads: 1R: Draw 2 cards, then discard a card from your hand.
Yes this is what we all wish it said, but it's really not that far from being the same as that.
You 4 lands in play, you have drawn 2 lands in a row so you have a hand with 1 Ravings, 1 Precursor Golem, 1 Olivia and 2 lands. What do you do? The answer is not cast the Ravings, the answer is Olivia, then Precursor, then if you have no more gas, you still have the Ravings to find another answer.
A different scenario: Turn 3, you have 2 lands in play, Your hand is Ravings (that you just drew), Olivia, Slagstorm, and 2 Forbidden Alchemy. You can't cast the Slagstorm, can't cast the Olivia, can't cast the Forbidden Alchemy and you really need a 3rd land. Chances are you will not draw 1 land 1 other card and discard the land. Yes it can happen, but more often than not it won't.
Signature thanks to Hakai Studios
U/B Control
Pro Probe:
-Information in Hand
-Can cast for free if needed
-Draws a card
-Not a terrible late game top deck.
Pro Despise
-Remove threat precast
-Information on hand
I really like the idea of having information T1 on my opponent's plans.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290