And a separate, but very related question, if Praetor's Grasp exiles a card with Flash, how am I allowed to play the card using Flash if it doesn't have any characteristics or abilities (including Flash) while exiled face-down?
The first step to casting a spell is to announce it and move it onto the stack, at this point it has flash and you have proved your action as legal.
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Flash is an ability that functions on the stack. You may announce the spell any time you could cast an instant by moving it to the stack. Once there, all players can see that the card has Flash and the casting is legal.
When choosing targets, you must choose an object that is visible to all players. If the game can't determine that the target is legal, it backs up to before the spell was announced.
Using outdated rulings is not a good precedent for current rules interpretation. The reason they issued the errata is because the current rules don't support the card as it was printed. The game doesn't see the characteristics of hidden cards, so it can't force you to put an artifact into play if you don't choose to do so. For the same reason, you are allowed to fail to find a card with certain characteristics when searching a hidden zone.
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The first step to casting a spell is to announce it and move it onto the stack, at this point it has flash and you have proved your action as legal.
That's simply not true.
Comp Rules says:
702.8a Flash is a static ability that functions in any zone from which you could play the card it's on. "Flash" means "You may play this card any time you could cast an instant."
Flash only functions in the zone from which you could cast it from. In this case, that zone is Exile. The card does not have Flash while in Exile, if it's true that exiled face-down cards do not have abilities.
And a separate, but very related question, if Praetor's Grasp exiles a card with Flash, how am I allowed to play the card using Flash if it doesn't have any characteristics or abilities (including Flash) while exiled face-down?
Because the effect that turned it face-down specified that it may be played as though it were in your hand. If the object were in your hand, its characteristics would be defined by its face rather than its back, so for purposes of playing it, the game can "see" its face.
Just a guess.
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Because the effect that turned it face-down specified that it may be played as though it were in your hand. If the object were in your hand, its characteristics would be defined by its face rather than its back, so for purposes of playing it, the game can "see" its face.
Just a guess.
Praetor's Grasp doesn't say anything about being able to play the card as though it were in your hand. It simply says I can play the card from Exile. If because of this ruling the card doesn't have flash while in Exile, then I can't play it, because Flash only functions from the zone you cast the spell from (in this case, Exile).
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that spell started to be cast (see rule 717, "Handling Illegal Actions"). Announcements and payments can't be altered after they've been made.
The process is:
Announce.
Place spell on Stack(public zone).
Game sees it has flash and your action is legal. Proceed to next step in the casting process.
Flash only functions in the zone from which you could cast it from. In this case, that zone is Exile. The card does not have Flash while in Exile, if it's true that exiled face-down cards do not have abilities.
This is not relevant otherwise you wouldn't be able to cast cards with flash from any hidden zone(like say your hand).
You have your ruling, if you think the rules could be improved I highly recommend the Rules Theory and Templating Forum on the WotC Community site.
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When choosing targets, you must choose an object that is visible to all players. If the game can't determine that the target is legal, it backs up to before the spell was announced.
I don't see this requirement in the Comprehensive rules. 601.2c doesn't mention it.
The point of rules like the aforementioned 701.1c is to prevent these kinds of issues where the player's can't verify the game state.
Using outdated rulings is not a good precedent for current rules interpretation. The reason they issued the errata is because the current rules don't support the card as it was printed. The game doesn't see the characteristics of hidden cards, so it can't force you to put an artifact into play if you don't choose to do so. For the same reason, you are allowed to fail to find a card with certain characteristics when searching a hidden zone.
But if the game can't force you to put an artifact into play because it can't see the characteristics of hidden cards, the old wording would work just fine.
You are allowed to fail to find because 701.15b grants you that right. If not for the rule, you would not be allowed to fail to find and your opponent could call a judge to verify.
The process is:
Announce.
Place spell on Stack(public zone).
Game sees it has flash and your action is legal. Proceed to next step in the casting process.
Flash only functions in the zone from which you could cast it from. In this case, that zone is Exile. The card does not have Flash while in Exile, if it's true that exiled face-down cards do not have abilities.
This is not relevant otherwise you wouldn't be able to cast cards with flash from any hidden zone(like say your hand).
Sorry to continue on but I feel like you're making incorrect statements. Cards in your hand can have abilities, like Flash. Nothing says they cant.
Comp Rules says:
112.6. Abilities of an instant or sorcery spell usually function only while that object is on the stack. Abilities of all other objects usually function only while that object is on the battlefield. The exceptions are as follows:
...
112.6b An ability that states which zones it functions in functions only from those zones.
Flash EXPLICITLY only functions from the zone you cast it FROM. If you are attempting to cast a card from exile, the card must have Flash while in exile. I can't possibly see what 702.8a means if not that.
Playing your normal Flash spell from your hand is fine, because once its put on the stack, your opponent can verify that the card had Flash while in your hand. It had Flash while in your hand, so the play is legal.
But in the case of Praetor's Grasp, the card did NOT have Flash while exiled face-down, because of this rule that says cards exiled face-down do not have abilities. Therefore it cannot be played using Flash.
112.6d An object's ability that restricts or modifies how that particular object can be played or cast functions in any zone from which it could be played or cast.
Also, Fnord's example of Yixlid Jailer, Karador, Ghost Chieftan, and a creature card with Flash in the Graveyard is a great example. If Exsam's ruling is correct, then I should be able to cast a creature with Flash from my Graveyard in that scenario. That doesn't seem correct at all.
Flash EXPLICITLY only functions from the zone you cast it FROM. If you are attempting to cast a card from exile, the card must have Flash while in exile. I can't possibly see what 702.8a means if not that.
I don't see the difference between a card in your hand (hidden zone) and a face-down card in exile that you alone can look at (hidden zone) as far as casting a card with flash.
But to target something, it has to be legal on announcement, and the face-down exile card doesn't have flash (even if the face-up portion does), so it isn't a legal target.
I mean, when you tap mana and put a spellstutter sprite on the stack when it isn't your turn, how did you do that? You moved a card from a hidden zone onto the stack. Doesn't seem all that different with a face-down exiled card.
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Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
I don't see the difference between a card in your hand (hidden zone) and a face-down card in exile that you alone can look at (hidden zone) as far as casting a card with flash.
But to target something, it has to be legal on announcement, and the face-down exile card doesn't have flash (even if the face-up portion does), so it isn't a legal target.
I mean, when you tap mana and put a spellstutter sprite on the stack when it isn't your turn, how did you do that? You moved a card from a hidden zone onto the stack. Doesn't seem all that different with a face-down exiled card.
The difference is that we have a ruling (see the Gatherer rulings on Runic Repetition) that specifically says that cards exiled face-down have no abilities.
So, a card exiled face-down CANNOT have Flash while in that zone. A card in your hand CAN have Flash while in that zone.
EDIT: Just to be clear, there's two separate issues here. The first is whether Runic Repetition can target a face-down exiled card with Flashback. I'll concede that THAT ruling requires examination by the Rules/Templating group, because the rules just don't address that situation well.
But the other issue is whether a face-down exiled card with Flash can be cast from Exile using Flash. I think that situation is 100% "no" if we are to accept that face-down exiled cards have no abilities.
I don't see the difference between a card in your hand (hidden zone) and a face-down card in exile that you alone can look at (hidden zone) as far as casting a card with flash.
The difference is that the card in your hand has flash while in your hand, whether your opponent knows it or not.
The exiled card, however, does not have flash according to the Runic Repetition ruling. The problem is that this ruling does not appear to have any basis in the current CR.
The difference is that we have a ruling (see the Gatherer rulings on Runic Repetition) that specifically says that cards exiled face-down have no abilities.
So, a card exiled face-down CANNOT have Flash while in that zone. A card in your hand CAN have Flash while in that zone.
Extending your logic, a face-down exiled card can't EVER be cast, since it has no characteristics or abilities. Clearly, this isn't the case. The ruling seems specifically geared towards determining whether or not it can be targeted by spells that care about its characteristics or abilities.
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Gatherer rulings are intended to be helpful reminders for specific cards. They are not meant to override the Comprehensive Rules when a discrepancy exists. There is nothing in the CR that says face-down exiled cards have no abilities. However, there is reasonable support to suggest that a card in a hidden zone does not have determinable characteristics when choosing targets, the same way you can't target a face-down blue Morph creature with Combust.
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Gatherer rulings are intended to be helpful reminders for specific cards. They are not meant to override the Comprehensive Rules when a discrepancy exists. There is nothing in the CR that says face-down exiled cards have no abilities. However, there is reasonable support to suggest that a card in a hidden zone does not have determinable characteristics when choosing targets, the same way you can't target a face-down blue Morph creature with Combust.
You can't target the face-down creature because 707.2 explicitly removes the creature's characteristics. That rule, however, only applies to face-down permanents and spells. If they wanted this to be a general rule for face-down cards in all zones, it would say so.
The fact that you know which card the face-down card is does not matter. The game itself has no way of checking which card the face-down card is. Since the game cannot determine whether the card is a legal target, it defaults to the card not being a legal target.
Uh, where does it say that in the comprehensive rules?
The same place the Comprehensive Rules say the game IS able to determine the characteristics of a face-down card outside the battlefield (aka, nowhere). The only logical conclusion is that the game can't determine the legality of your target if the characteristics of that object aren't visible in a public zone.
If you go to any event and ask any number of judges, they will tell you, "No, you can't target that face-down exiled card that you know is a Devil's Play due to your Diabolic Tutor and the process of elimination with Runic Repetition." This is a rulings forum, and that is the ruling that has been given several times.
If you have an issue with the clarity of the Comprehensive Rules, this is not the forum to debate that.
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I'm just trying to understand why people insist on saying that "the game can't determine whether it's a legal target or not, so it isn't". As far as I can tell, the answer is "There's a ruling that specifically tells us that it isn't a legal target, so it isn't."
Because if it's really true that the reason you can't target it is that the game can't determine whether it's a legal target or not, then where does that leave the question of casting a face-down exiled card with Flash? Does the game find itself unable to determine whether the card had Flash while exiled? Is that even the relevant question?
Casting a spell with flash doesn't require the game to know the characteristics of that card before it is announced. As soon as you announce it, the card is revealed and put on the stack. The players and the game can now clearly see that the card had flash in its previously hidden zone, so nothing illegal has occurred. The same way, you aren't required to reveal a card from your hand before you cast it to show everyone that it has flash. You just announce it, and everything works out fine. It only matters that you as the controller of that card know that it has flash before you announce it.
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Casting a spell with flash doesn't require the game to know the characteristics of that card before it is announced. As soon as you announce it, the card is revealed and put on the stack. The players and the game can now clearly see that the card had flash in its previously hidden zone, so nothing illegal has occurred. The same way, you aren't required to reveal a card from your hand before you cast it to show everyone that it has flash. You just announce it, and everything works out fine. It only matters that you as the controller of that card know that it has flash before you announce it.
Wait, so casting it is legal cause characteristics don't matter because they're checked after, BUT I can't target it because even though I know what card it is, the game doesn't know, so it can't be the target of Runic Repetition? That makes sense, although with the hidden land example it should work just fine. :3
Though it's no different with the hideaway lands. A face-down exiled card's only known properties are that it's an exiled card (linked to the ability that exiled it) and who owns it. The only spells or abilities that could target a face-down exiled card are those that don't require the targeted exiled card to have certain characteristics (I'm not sure such an effect exists).
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This is a really mindblowing discussion for me because it's one of those situations where I thought I knew how things "should be" but the rules seem a bit unclear.
So basically we have:
(1) Cards like Runic Repetition can't target face-down exiled cards because the game can't check their characteristics. (Even in the hideaway land scenario.)
(2) A face-down Spire Monitor exiled with Praetor's Graspcan be cast at instant speed. (This seems very contrary to 702.8a but it makes intuitive sense.)
Where does this leave us on Yixlid Jailer + Karador, Ghost Chieftain + Spire Monitor (in yard)? Based on (2) it seems like I can cast Monitor at instant speed despite the Jailer. Is this right? It feels sort of questionable in light of 702.8a.
The first step to casting a spell is to announce it and move it onto the stack, at this point it has flash and you have proved your action as legal.
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You can also find the latest Comprehensive Rules here.
When choosing targets, you must choose an object that is visible to all players. If the game can't determine that the target is legal, it backs up to before the spell was announced.
Using outdated rulings is not a good precedent for current rules interpretation. The reason they issued the errata is because the current rules don't support the card as it was printed. The game doesn't see the characteristics of hidden cards, so it can't force you to put an artifact into play if you don't choose to do so. For the same reason, you are allowed to fail to find a card with certain characteristics when searching a hidden zone.
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That's simply not true.
Comp Rules says:
Flash only functions in the zone from which you could cast it from. In this case, that zone is Exile. The card does not have Flash while in Exile, if it's true that exiled face-down cards do not have abilities.
Because the effect that turned it face-down specified that it may be played as though it were in your hand. If the object were in your hand, its characteristics would be defined by its face rather than its back, so for purposes of playing it, the game can "see" its face.
Just a guess.
Praetor's Grasp doesn't say anything about being able to play the card as though it were in your hand. It simply says I can play the card from Exile. If because of this ruling the card doesn't have flash while in Exile, then I can't play it, because Flash only functions from the zone you cast the spell from (in this case, Exile).
It simply is.
The process is:
Announce.
Place spell on Stack(public zone).
Game sees it has flash and your action is legal. Proceed to next step in the casting process.
This is not relevant otherwise you wouldn't be able to cast cards with flash from any hidden zone(like say your hand).
You have your ruling, if you think the rules could be improved I highly recommend the Rules Theory and Templating Forum on the WotC Community site.
Ever wanted to know what guidelines Judges use to make rulings? Find out at the DCI Document Center.
You can also find the latest Comprehensive Rules here.
Orite. Guess that's old templating. My bad.
I don't see this requirement in the Comprehensive rules. 601.2c doesn't mention it.
The point of rules like the aforementioned 701.1c is to prevent these kinds of issues where the player's can't verify the game state.
But if the game can't force you to put an artifact into play because it can't see the characteristics of hidden cards, the old wording would work just fine.
You are allowed to fail to find because 701.15b grants you that right. If not for the rule, you would not be allowed to fail to find and your opponent could call a judge to verify.
EDIT:
So if Yixlid Jailor is in play and I control Karador, Ghost Chieftain, I can cast the Spire Monitor in my GY any time I can play an instant?
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Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Sorry to continue on but I feel like you're making incorrect statements. Cards in your hand can have abilities, like Flash. Nothing says they cant.
Comp Rules says:
Flash EXPLICITLY only functions from the zone you cast it FROM. If you are attempting to cast a card from exile, the card must have Flash while in exile. I can't possibly see what 702.8a means if not that.
Playing your normal Flash spell from your hand is fine, because once its put on the stack, your opponent can verify that the card had Flash while in your hand. It had Flash while in your hand, so the play is legal.
But in the case of Praetor's Grasp, the card did NOT have Flash while exiled face-down, because of this rule that says cards exiled face-down do not have abilities. Therefore it cannot be played using Flash.
I've yet to see a conclusive ruling regarding the Flash issue, and I think you're incorrect. I apologize if this bothers you.
Thanks, that reinforces the point.
Also, Fnord's example of Yixlid Jailer, Karador, Ghost Chieftan, and a creature card with Flash in the Graveyard is a great example. If Exsam's ruling is correct, then I should be able to cast a creature with Flash from my Graveyard in that scenario. That doesn't seem correct at all.
I don't see the difference between a card in your hand (hidden zone) and a face-down card in exile that you alone can look at (hidden zone) as far as casting a card with flash.
But to target something, it has to be legal on announcement, and the face-down exile card doesn't have flash (even if the face-up portion does), so it isn't a legal target.
I mean, when you tap mana and put a spellstutter sprite on the stack when it isn't your turn, how did you do that? You moved a card from a hidden zone onto the stack. Doesn't seem all that different with a face-down exiled card.
The difference is that we have a ruling (see the Gatherer rulings on Runic Repetition) that specifically says that cards exiled face-down have no abilities.
So, a card exiled face-down CANNOT have Flash while in that zone. A card in your hand CAN have Flash while in that zone.
EDIT: Just to be clear, there's two separate issues here. The first is whether Runic Repetition can target a face-down exiled card with Flashback. I'll concede that THAT ruling requires examination by the Rules/Templating group, because the rules just don't address that situation well.
But the other issue is whether a face-down exiled card with Flash can be cast from Exile using Flash. I think that situation is 100% "no" if we are to accept that face-down exiled cards have no abilities.
The difference is that the card in your hand has flash while in your hand, whether your opponent knows it or not.
The exiled card, however, does not have flash according to the Runic Repetition ruling. The problem is that this ruling does not appear to have any basis in the current CR.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Extending your logic, a face-down exiled card can't EVER be cast, since it has no characteristics or abilities. Clearly, this isn't the case. The ruling seems specifically geared towards determining whether or not it can be targeted by spells that care about its characteristics or abilities.
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You can't target the face-down creature because 707.2 explicitly removes the creature's characteristics. That rule, however, only applies to face-down permanents and spells. If they wanted this to be a general rule for face-down cards in all zones, it would say so.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
If you go to any event and ask any number of judges, they will tell you, "No, you can't target that face-down exiled card that you know is a Devil's Play due to your Diabolic Tutor and the process of elimination with Runic Repetition." This is a rulings forum, and that is the ruling that has been given several times.
If you have an issue with the clarity of the Comprehensive Rules, this is not the forum to debate that.
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My Type 4 Stack -- DCI Documents -- Comp Rules
I'm just trying to understand why people insist on saying that "the game can't determine whether it's a legal target or not, so it isn't". As far as I can tell, the answer is "There's a ruling that specifically tells us that it isn't a legal target, so it isn't."
Because if it's really true that the reason you can't target it is that the game can't determine whether it's a legal target or not, then where does that leave the question of casting a face-down exiled card with Flash? Does the game find itself unable to determine whether the card had Flash while exiled? Is that even the relevant question?
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My Type 4 Stack -- DCI Documents -- Comp Rules
However... I am
And I asked Matt Tabak at MTG on twitter
And there we have it :3
Wait, so casting it is legal cause characteristics don't matter because they're checked after, BUT I can't target it because even though I know what card it is, the game doesn't know, so it can't be the target of Runic Repetition? That makes sense, although with the hidden land example it should work just fine. :3
Though it's no different with the hideaway lands. A face-down exiled card's only known properties are that it's an exiled card (linked to the ability that exiled it) and who owns it. The only spells or abilities that could target a face-down exiled card are those that don't require the targeted exiled card to have certain characteristics (I'm not sure such an effect exists).
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My Type 4 Stack -- DCI Documents -- Comp Rules
So basically we have:
(1) Cards like Runic Repetition can't target face-down exiled cards because the game can't check their characteristics. (Even in the hideaway land scenario.)
(2) A face-down Spire Monitor exiled with Praetor's Grasp can be cast at instant speed. (This seems very contrary to 702.8a but it makes intuitive sense.)
Where does this leave us on Yixlid Jailer + Karador, Ghost Chieftain + Spire Monitor (in yard)? Based on (2) it seems like I can cast Monitor at instant speed despite the Jailer. Is this right? It feels sort of questionable in light of 702.8a.