Where does this leave us on Yixlid Jailer + Karador, Ghost Chieftain + Spire Monitor (in yard)? Based on (2) it seems like I can cast Monitor at instant speed despite the Jailer. Is this right? It feels sort of questionable in light of 702.8a.
This scenario is not analogous to being able to cast a face-down exiled card with flash.
There is a distinct difference between not having an ability and being unable to determine the existence of an ability.
To answer the question; no, you cannot as has been previously pointed out Flash functions from the zone the card is being cast from, not the stack.
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No, Yixlid Jailer removes the ability from the Spire Monitor in the graveyard. You can cast it only when you could cast a sorcery, because it doesn't have Flash in the zone you cast it from. Once you put it on the stack, the game says "Wait, this didn't have flash before you announced it, even though it would have it now that it's on the stack." The game would know the casting is illegal, and would back up. For the face-down exile card, the game doesn't see anything that would prevent that card from having flash in its prior zone, so it has no problems with it.
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My deck was searched with Diabolic Tutor and the missing card was Devil's Play, the card is 100% known to me through legal play. Does that not matter? (I don't mean to sound redundant but nobody has answered that question yet)
What if multiple cards have been taken at some point? Process of elimination can't be used as a way to know what a card is for the purposes of the game. While it's true that you may know what card it is there is nothing in the game that allows you to know what card it is.
@lvl3 Not sure I agree re: CR hole. To determine the char of an obj, you must be able to look at it. Same as face down cards in library.
And I've been looking, I can't find a single card that allows an owner of an upside-down exiled card to look at their own card. The hideaway lands don't state that you can look at your own cards, same with Summoner's Egg and cards like Praetor's Grasp and Shared Fate wouldn't let you use Runic Repetition because you don't own the exiled face-down cards you can see. If there's any card that allows you to look at your own face-down exiled card, it would seem Runic Repetition may work on it, and I could ask... but I can't find one.
New information.
If there's any card that allows you to look at your own face-down exiled card, it would seem Runic Repetition may work on it, and I could ask... but I can't find one.
You can't because there isn't one even then the game memory would only last whilst the spell/ability is resolving. Once that is completed the card goes back to being a face down card with no characteristics.
There is also no change in Mat Tabraks position. The only reason why it might appear that there is one is you did not ask the full question the first time. In his first tweet the object he is referring to is object that exiled the card in question, the praetor's grasp / hideaway land not your runic repetition you are casting later..
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You can look at the hideaway lands as long as you have control it at some point
702.73a Hideaway represents a static ability and a triggered ability. Hideaway means "This permanent enters the battlefield tapped" and "When this permanent enters the battlefield, look at the top four cards of your library. Exile one of them face down and put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order. The exiled card gains 'Any player who has controlled the permanent that exiled this card may look at this card in the exile zone.β
So, just to confirm what I think I'm reading to be the "consensus" rulings...
1) The gatherer "ruling" found on Runic Repetition where it states that face-down exiled cards have no characteristics or abilities is NOT quite accurate. Face-down exiled cards DO have characteristics and abilities, they just are not public knowledge.
2) Runic Repetition cannot target a face-down exiled card with Flashback because the targetting restriction cannot be verified by all players, NOT because the card doesn't have flashback, right?
3) You can cast a creature card exiled face-down with Praetor's Grasp or Colfenor's Plans because the card DOES have Flash while exiled face-down, and that becomes verified upon putting the spell on the stack, correct?
I understand that these are the best rulings that we can come up with given the current Comp Rules. I do think that ruling #2 is requires some non-intuitive stretches of the current Comp Rules to come to that result, but I understand that allowing Runic Repetition to target such a card would cause more issues than it solves.
I think the only remaining issues are a possible Comp Rules clarification on targetting objects whose characteristics are not known to all players; this seems to be a situation unique to Runic Repetition (as it is the only card that targets a card in exile and requires knowledge of that cards characteristics/abilities as part of the targetting requirements), so it is understandable that the current Comp Rules do not adequately address it. But that is an issue for the Rules Templating forum I believe.
So, just to confirm what I think I'm reading to be the "consensus" rulings...
1) The gatherer "ruling" found on Runic Repetition where it states that face-down exiled cards have no characteristics or abilities is NOT quite accurate. Face-down exiled cards DO have characteristics and abilities, they just are not public knowledge.
2) Runic Repetition cannot target a face-down exiled card with Flashback because the targetting restriction cannot be verified by all players, NOT because the card doesn't have flashback, right?
3) You can cast a creature card exiled face-down with Praetor's Grasp or Colfenor's Plans because the card DOES have Flash while exiled face-down, and that becomes verified upon putting the spell on the stack, correct?
I understand that these are the best rulings that we can come up with given the current Comp Rules. I do think that ruling #2 is requires some non-intuitive stretches of the current Comp Rules to come to that result, but I understand that allowing Runic Repetition to target such a card would cause more issues than it solves.
I think the only remaining issues are a possible Comp Rules clarification on targetting objects whose characteristics are not known to all players; this seems to be a situation unique to Runic Repetition (as it is the only card that targets a card in exile and requires knowledge of that cards characteristics/abilities as part of the targetting requirements), so it is understandable that the current Comp Rules do not adequately address it. But that is an issue for the Rules Templating forum I believe.
I think that about sums it up, no?
This almost works. However, the problem with this theory is that the basic rules principle implied here is the following
You cannot take an action if the legality of the action cannot be verified immediately by all players.
This explains why you can't RR the Grasped card but can use the flash it may have. However, there's a pretty big problem with this principle: it would mean you couldn't play cards with morph face-down, as it cannot be verified by all players that the card actually has morph.
This explains why you can't RR the Grasped card but can use the flash it may have. However, there's a pretty big problem with this principle: it would mean you couldn't play cards with morph face-down, as it cannot be verified by all players that the card actually has morph.
Morph is an exception to this philosophy by necessity of the mechanic. Players are required to reveal Morphs if they would leave the battlefield or at the end of the game. Failure to do so is at least a Game Loss at Competitive+ REL.
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Morph is an exception to this philosophy by necessity of the mechanic. Players are required to reveal Morphs if they would leave the battlefield or at the end of the game. Failure to do so is at least a Game Loss at Competitive+ REL.
That's the problem with such a rule not being written down anywhere β we don't know what the rule actually is and what exceptions it may have.
For example, perhaps the Morph rules are the general policy: in the RR example, the face-down card is revealed at the last possible moment and if it doesn't have flashback you get a game loss.
On a related note, are there any other situations (other than Morph and RR) where this rule/philosophy matters?
For example, perhaps the Morph rules are the general policy: in the RR example, the face-down card is revealed at the last possible moment and if it doesn't have flashback you get a game loss.
That's a totally different situation because Runic Repetition targets. The game does not know the exiled card's characteristics, so you can't target it in the first place.
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That's a totally different situation because Runic Repetition targets. The game does not know the exiled card's characteristics, so you can't target it in the first place.
I don't see how targeting makes a difference. In both cases, the game is unable to verify the legality of your action.
The question is whether the Morph approach (allow, verify later, penalize if action was illegal) is an exception to the general philosophy or the philosophy itself.
I don't see how targeting makes a difference. In both cases, the game is unable to verify the legality of your action.
Yes, but it can later on without messing up the game state, whereas revealing the exiled card that you want to target with Runic Repetition "at the last possible moment" would require revealing a card that is not supposed to be revealed at that time.
The question is whether the Morph approach (allow, verify later, penalize if action was illegal) is an exception to the general philosophy or the philosophy itself.
As Exsam said, Morph is an "exception", yes. Its covered by different rules than exiled cards.
Maybe the rules could be cleared up to be more explicit, but I don't really understand the confusion in this thread.
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Yes, but it can later on without messing up the game state, whereas revealing the exiled card that you want to target with Runic Repetition "at the last possible moment" would require revealing a card that is not supposed to be revealed at that time.
The same is true of Morph if the face-down card is bounced.
As Exsam said, Morph is an "exception", yes. Its covered by different rules than exiled cards.
Maybe the rules could be cleared up to be more explicit, but I don't really understand the confusion in this thread.
It's hard to know that Morph is an exception to a policy when that policy is never explicitly stated anywhere. That's the source of the confusion.
That game behavior is in fact stated pretty explicitly in the rules:
707.9. If a face-down permanent moves from the battlefield to any other zone, its owner must reveal it to all players as he or she moves it. If a face-down spell moves from the stack to any zone other than the battlefield, its owner must reveal it to all players as he or she moves it. At the end of each game, all face-down permanents and spells must be revealed to all players.
I know this. The source of the confusion is that there's not equivalent section talking about how face-down exiled cards work with things which care about their characteristics, so people are forced to infer things.
This has gone on far too long to be useful. Whether the rules are as complete as they could or should be is not a problem we'll solve in this forum. Thread locked.
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This scenario is not analogous to being able to cast a face-down exiled card with flash.
There is a distinct difference between not having an ability and being unable to determine the existence of an ability.
To answer the question; no, you cannot as has been previously pointed out Flash functions from the zone the card is being cast from, not the stack.
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Indeed there is. But according to the RR Ruling, as well as Tabak's tweet, face-down exiled cards actually don't have characteristics/abilities.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
What if multiple cards have been taken at some point? Process of elimination can't be used as a way to know what a card is for the purposes of the game. While it's true that you may know what card it is there is nothing in the game that allows you to know what card it is.
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And I've been looking, I can't find a single card that allows an owner of an upside-down exiled card to look at their own card. The hideaway lands don't state that you can look at your own cards, same with Summoner's Egg and cards like Praetor's Grasp and Shared Fate wouldn't let you use Runic Repetition because you don't own the exiled face-down cards you can see. If there's any card that allows you to look at your own face-down exiled card, it would seem Runic Repetition may work on it, and I could ask... but I can't find one.
You can't because there isn't one even then the game memory would only last whilst the spell/ability is resolving. Once that is completed the card goes back to being a face down card with no characteristics.
There is also no change in Mat Tabraks position. The only reason why it might appear that there is one is you did not ask the full question the first time. In his first tweet the object he is referring to is object that exiled the card in question, the praetor's grasp / hideaway land not your runic repetition you are casting later..
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1) The gatherer "ruling" found on Runic Repetition where it states that face-down exiled cards have no characteristics or abilities is NOT quite accurate. Face-down exiled cards DO have characteristics and abilities, they just are not public knowledge.
2) Runic Repetition cannot target a face-down exiled card with Flashback because the targetting restriction cannot be verified by all players, NOT because the card doesn't have flashback, right?
3) You can cast a creature card exiled face-down with Praetor's Grasp or Colfenor's Plans because the card DOES have Flash while exiled face-down, and that becomes verified upon putting the spell on the stack, correct?
I understand that these are the best rulings that we can come up with given the current Comp Rules. I do think that ruling #2 is requires some non-intuitive stretches of the current Comp Rules to come to that result, but I understand that allowing Runic Repetition to target such a card would cause more issues than it solves.
I think the only remaining issues are a possible Comp Rules clarification on targetting objects whose characteristics are not known to all players; this seems to be a situation unique to Runic Repetition (as it is the only card that targets a card in exile and requires knowledge of that cards characteristics/abilities as part of the targetting requirements), so it is understandable that the current Comp Rules do not adequately address it. But that is an issue for the Rules Templating forum I believe.
I think that about sums it up, no?
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This almost works. However, the problem with this theory is that the basic rules principle implied here is the following
You cannot take an action if the legality of the action cannot be verified immediately by all players.
This explains why you can't RR the Grasped card but can use the flash it may have. However, there's a pretty big problem with this principle: it would mean you couldn't play cards with morph face-down, as it cannot be verified by all players that the card actually has morph.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Morph is an exception to this philosophy by necessity of the mechanic. Players are required to reveal Morphs if they would leave the battlefield or at the end of the game. Failure to do so is at least a Game Loss at Competitive+ REL.
Ever wanted to know what guidelines Judges use to make rulings? Find out at the DCI Document Center.
You can also find the latest Comprehensive Rules here.
That's the problem with such a rule not being written down anywhere β we don't know what the rule actually is and what exceptions it may have.
For example, perhaps the Morph rules are the general policy: in the RR example, the face-down card is revealed at the last possible moment and if it doesn't have flashback you get a game loss.
On a related note, are there any other situations (other than Morph and RR) where this rule/philosophy matters?
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
That's a totally different situation because Runic Repetition targets. The game does not know the exiled card's characteristics, so you can't target it in the first place.
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I don't see how targeting makes a difference. In both cases, the game is unable to verify the legality of your action.
The question is whether the Morph approach (allow, verify later, penalize if action was illegal) is an exception to the general philosophy or the philosophy itself.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Yes, but it can later on without messing up the game state, whereas revealing the exiled card that you want to target with Runic Repetition "at the last possible moment" would require revealing a card that is not supposed to be revealed at that time.
As Exsam said, Morph is an "exception", yes. Its covered by different rules than exiled cards.
Maybe the rules could be cleared up to be more explicit, but I don't really understand the confusion in this thread.
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The same is true of Morph if the face-down card is bounced.
It's hard to know that Morph is an exception to a policy when that policy is never explicitly stated anywhere. That's the source of the confusion.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I know this. The source of the confusion is that there's not equivalent section talking about how face-down exiled cards work with things which care about their characteristics, so people are forced to infer things.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.