in this deck. I haven't seen anybody else mention these cards here. What's with the hate?
They are not mentioned for good reason. Not hate, just indifference. Solemn and Sun do absolutely nothing to address the bad matchups (combo). Sun Titan is not Modern-playable, not by a long shot, and Solemn competes with the nuts (Ranger, Elspeth) for the 4-slot in a deck that wants a fairly shallow curve.
I've been putzing around with the following board:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Torpor Orb
2 Day of Judgment
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Leyline of Sanctity
It's geared at helping us against our bad matchups (Storm, Pyro, Twin, Melira, Gifts reanimator combo) while paying lip service to ones that we ought to crush anyway (Zoo and friends). What do you guys think?
They are not mentioned for good reason. Not hate, just indifference. Solemn and Sun do absolutely nothing to address the bad matchups (combo). Sun Titan is not Modern-playable, not by a long shot, and Solemn competes with the nuts (Ranger, Elspeth) for the 4-slot in a deck that wants a fairly shallow curve.
Ok, yeah, that's what I meant: why the indifference? The point of solemn is to get emeria online as fast as possible. You're right that it doesn't help against combo decks, but it helps against control decks (since against control, emeria is our only out). You might be right about sun titan being useless though. I'll try dropping him.
I think not running student of warfare is a mistake. In testing he's been really good for me especially late game. Don't mind me, I'll just use Elspeth to +3/+3 and give flying to my 4/4 double striker and swing for 14(only happened twice but hey, it was cool). Still not sure about figure of destiny. Anyone have arguments for this card over just adding 2 more students?
Ok, yeah, that's what I meant: why the indifference? The point of solemn is to get emeria online as fast as possible. You're right that it doesn't help against combo decks, but it helps against control decks (since against control, emeria is our only out). You might be right about sun titan being useless though. I'll try dropping him.
Anyone have arguments for this card over just adding 2 more students?
Figure has two things going for it.
It's sort of better if you draw into it on turn 2 since you can drop it and 2/2 it immediately(where in comparison, you want to be playing Student on either turn 1 or turn 3).
It also has that "I get to be absolutely frickin' huge" thing going for it, being that it goes to being a 4/4 on second "level up" and then an 8/8.
But yeah, I cut Figure's for more Student's pretty much immediately. Student's pro's outweigh the cons and it's a much, much better defensive creature, while also having a lower mana req that's more spaced out, allowing you to do more than one thing at a time.
Some of the guys in the Gifts subforum have piles that include Punishing Groves and Life from the Loam. How would this deck handle that? Pray Serra Ascendant or Elspeth goes all the way or what?
Some of the guys in the Gifts subforum have piles that include Punishing Groves and Life from the Loam. How would this deck handle that? Pray Serra Ascendant or Elspeth goes all the way or what?
My list at current cuts 1 Student for 1 Heap Doll to pull out with RoE.
Otherwise, I don't really see why Punishing Fire hurts us that badly. For your opponent to lock out a single Ascendant they need 9 mana on the board, which if they're doing that they kind of can't do much of anything else.
Either way, sideboard options bring in Leyline which shuts off Gifts. And luckily, Gifts isn't really a very aggressive deck - they can't really do much to you very fast.
You could also sideboard something like Purify the Grave, etc.
Any tips against storm combo? It's the once deck that's ran at my LGS that I have a lot of trouble beating. I board in leylines, mana tithes, and cannonists but usually the leyline/cannonist gets bounced and the combo goes off right after. Even with mana tithe it can afford to just wait to be able to pay the 1.
Nevermore is a really good card people haven't been using as much as they should in Modern. I'm not a Martyr Proc player, but in any white deck that isn't aggro, I make it a point to play 2-3 copies of this in my board.
It's basically a meddling mage that can't be killed by any relevant cards in the format.. which matters... a lot. It shuts down any combo deck except 2 cards in Twin (kiki jiki.. assuming you name splinter twin itself). It shuts off Pod in Melira, or just Viscera Seer. It shuts off grapeshot, empty the warrens, restore balance, living end, second sunrise.. etc. It's also a very handy card to throw in when certain non-combo cards give you a particular amount of trouble... ie punishing fire, worm harvest, life from the loam, death cloud, or basically any late game card that would otherwise give you big probs. It's basically a runed halo that's better at hitting cards that aren't on the board.
Any tips against storm combo? It's the once deck that's ran at my LGS that I have a lot of trouble beating. I board in leylines, mana tithes, and cannonists but usually the leyline/cannonist gets bounced and the combo goes off right after. Even with mana tithe it can afford to just wait to be able to pay the 1.
Nevermore is a great card against combo decks. It should ideally be run in conjunction with another card that actually stops the combo from working like Leyline of Sanctity / Rule of Law / Ethersworn Canonist.
Drop Nevermore, naming their bounce spell (or, if you're up against living end, you name beast within)
Then drop Leyline / Rule / Canonist
---
Nevermore is basically a support card. The card that actually shuts down their combo is something else. Instead of using nevermore, you could argue that mana tithe is a better support card because it lets you counter their bounce spell or counter their actual combo. That's true, but often times combo decks manage to go off without tapping out. So, I prefer Nevermore as a support card.
Note: Rule is probably better than canonist because canonist is not only vulnerable to bounce but is also vulnerable to burn.
Except for the fact it dies to Pridemage, doesn't affect the current board state, and takes up slots of which could otherwise be Oblivion Ring or other generally more useful card.
I think this is evidence of the fact that you're not using the card properly. If pridemage is their bounce / removal spell, then you're supposed to cast nevermore naming pridemage. Otherwise, your Oblivion Ring is just as vulnerable to the pridemage.
---
I have a follow up question:
If I run a combination of Nevermore and Rule of Law, is there any reason that I should also run Leyline? Is there anything that Leyline can help me with that a combination of Nevermore and Rule can't?
If I run a combination of Nevermore and Rule of Law, is there any reason that I should also run Leyline? Is there anything that Leyline can help me with that a combination of Nevermore and Rule can't?
There's a pretty good mill deck at my LGS that just scoops to leyline pretty much.
There's a pretty good mill deck at my LGS that just scoops to leyline pretty much.
I was just going to add that. The only two things I'm losing by dropping the Leyline are protection from mill and protection from discard. (That's what I think at least, please let me know if I'm wrong).
Discard is not a main strategy for any deck and is at best a support strategy. Therefore, we should be able to brave through our opponents' discard spells.
Mill is a main strategy of some decks but these decks are so rogue and it's well-nigh impossible to make a deck that is protected against all rogue strategies. Sometimes, we just gotta bite the bullet. Mill is probably one such bullet. (On a side note, how do control decks deal with milling?)
---
EDIT: Just realized another killer reason to run Leyline. It protects you from Gifts control.
can anyone help me? I dont understand how to sideboard with Alan Warnock deck list?
In my town we have all sorts of deck Counter-Cat, Ad Naseum, Tempered Steel, Fling Affinity, Zoo, UR Faeries, Red Deck Wins, Melira Pod, Pox Rock, Death Cloud, UW Control, Jund, Esper Teachings, Pyromancer Ascension, Gifts Control, Splinter Twin, Living End, Boom/Bust Naya.
Please help me.
Leyline of Sanctity is imperfect against Death Cloud. Yes, their targeted discard is turned off, but their Death Cloud is not. Heck, Turn 4 Death Cloud with X = 3 can't be stopped by Mana Tithe if they get the "nuts" Turn 2 Sakura-Tribe Elder Turn 3 Garruk Wildspeaker draw and don't miss any of their land drops (this happens more often than you'd think). After a Death Cloud, you won't have lands, a hand, or creatures, but they will have lands and often a planeswalker (but no hand or creatures), so the Cloud will just destroy you. If Death Cloud won't work, they're likely to pack Liliana of the Veil, who'll make the card advantage game that much harder because her first ability doesn't target (but at least she can't make you sac creatures or pull her ultimate off).
Some Gifts Control decks, as I said earlier, pack the Punishing Groves engine with Loam recursion; Leyline won't solve all your problems with those decks, as they'll keep continuously wiping the board and finish you off with Goyf/V. Clique/Tiago/Eternal Witness/Worm Harvest.
I'm not sure about the UR Fae match-up. Most of them run the Pester Twin combo, so that'll be a major distraction, but they can just finish you off by running the tempo game instead.
ok, what we do against Death Cloud??? maybe Nevermore??? what is a win plan strategy??? can anyone tell me what we side off against all popelar decks???
sorry for my poor english)))
ok, what we do against Death Cloud??? maybe Nevermore??? what is a win plan strategy??? can anyone tell me what we side off against all popelar decks???
sorry for my poor english)))
Death Cloud is a tough matchup for us. Looks like Nevermore can work for that, but what else?
I suppose Suppression Field can slow them down. Having to pay 2 to sac a Sakura Tribe Elder or 2 to activate Garruk's abilities can stall enough so that we won't have to worry about a t4 cloud to wipe us.
They are not mentioned for good reason. Not hate, just indifference. Solemn and Sun do absolutely nothing to address the bad matchups (combo). Sun Titan is not Modern-playable, not by a long shot, and Solemn competes with the nuts (Ranger, Elspeth) for the 4-slot in a deck that wants a fairly shallow curve.
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Torpor Orb
2 Day of Judgment
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Leyline of Sanctity
It's geared at helping us against our bad matchups (Storm, Pyro, Twin, Melira, Gifts reanimator combo) while paying lip service to ones that we ought to crush anyway (Zoo and friends). What do you guys think?
Ok, yeah, that's what I meant: why the indifference? The point of solemn is to get emeria online as fast as possible. You're right that it doesn't help against combo decks, but it helps against control decks (since against control, emeria is our only out). You might be right about sun titan being useless though. I'll try dropping him.
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
wat.
How is Emeria your only out against control?
You can't counter forecast barring Trickbind or locking a Pithing Needle on it.
And they're not ran/talked about because they're slow and don't do much in the deck.
Figure has two things going for it.
It's sort of better if you draw into it on turn 2 since you can drop it and 2/2 it immediately(where in comparison, you want to be playing Student on either turn 1 or turn 3).
It also has that "I get to be absolutely frickin' huge" thing going for it, being that it goes to being a 4/4 on second "level up" and then an 8/8.
But yeah, I cut Figure's for more Student's pretty much immediately. Student's pro's outweigh the cons and it's a much, much better defensive creature, while also having a lower mana req that's more spaced out, allowing you to do more than one thing at a time.
My list at current cuts 1 Student for 1 Heap Doll to pull out with RoE.
Otherwise, I don't really see why Punishing Fire hurts us that badly. For your opponent to lock out a single Ascendant they need 9 mana on the board, which if they're doing that they kind of can't do much of anything else.
Either way, sideboard options bring in Leyline which shuts off Gifts. And luckily, Gifts isn't really a very aggressive deck - they can't really do much to you very fast.
You could also sideboard something like Purify the Grave, etc.
It's basically a meddling mage that can't be killed by any relevant cards in the format.. which matters... a lot. It shuts down any combo deck except 2 cards in Twin (kiki jiki.. assuming you name splinter twin itself). It shuts off Pod in Melira, or just Viscera Seer. It shuts off grapeshot, empty the warrens, restore balance, living end, second sunrise.. etc. It's also a very handy card to throw in when certain non-combo cards give you a particular amount of trouble... ie punishing fire, worm harvest, life from the loam, death cloud, or basically any late game card that would otherwise give you big probs. It's basically a runed halo that's better at hitting cards that aren't on the board.
Nevermore is a great card against combo decks. It should ideally be run in conjunction with another card that actually stops the combo from working like Leyline of Sanctity / Rule of Law / Ethersworn Canonist.
Drop Nevermore, naming their bounce spell (or, if you're up against living end, you name beast within)
Then drop Leyline / Rule / Canonist
---
Nevermore is basically a support card. The card that actually shuts down their combo is something else. Instead of using nevermore, you could argue that mana tithe is a better support card because it lets you counter their bounce spell or counter their actual combo. That's true, but often times combo decks manage to go off without tapping out. So, I prefer Nevermore as a support card.
Note: Rule is probably better than canonist because canonist is not only vulnerable to bounce but is also vulnerable to burn.
---
I think this is evidence of the fact that you're not using the card properly. If pridemage is their bounce / removal spell, then you're supposed to cast nevermore naming pridemage. Otherwise, your Oblivion Ring is just as vulnerable to the pridemage.
---
I have a follow up question:
If I run a combination of Nevermore and Rule of Law, is there any reason that I should also run Leyline? Is there anything that Leyline can help me with that a combination of Nevermore and Rule can't?
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
There's a pretty good mill deck at my LGS that just scoops to leyline pretty much.
I was just going to add that. The only two things I'm losing by dropping the Leyline are protection from mill and protection from discard. (That's what I think at least, please let me know if I'm wrong).
Discard is not a main strategy for any deck and is at best a support strategy. Therefore, we should be able to brave through our opponents' discard spells.
Mill is a main strategy of some decks but these decks are so rogue and it's well-nigh impossible to make a deck that is protected against all rogue strategies. Sometimes, we just gotta bite the bullet. Mill is probably one such bullet. (On a side note, how do control decks deal with milling?)
---
EDIT: Just realized another killer reason to run Leyline. It protects you from Gifts control.
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
In my town we have all sorts of deck Counter-Cat, Ad Naseum, Tempered Steel, Fling Affinity, Zoo, UR Faeries, Red Deck Wins, Melira Pod, Pox Rock, Death Cloud, UW Control, Jund, Esper Teachings, Pyromancer Ascension, Gifts Control, Splinter Twin, Living End, Boom/Bust Naya.
Please help me.
Counter-Cat: No sb needed
Tempered Steel: Kataki, War's Wage (optional)
Affinity: Kataki, War's Wage (optional)
Zoo: No sb needed
UR Faeries: don't know
Red Deck Wins: no sb needed
Melira Pod: Torpor Orb / Nevermore
Pox Rock: Leyline of Sanctity, Mana Tithe
Death Cloud: Leyline of Sanctity, Mana Tithe
UW Control: No sb needed (possibly O-ring)
Jund: no sb needed
Esper Teachings: ?
Pyromancer Ascension: Leyline / Nevermore
Gifts Control: Leyline
Splinter Twin: Torpor Orb / Ghostly Prison / Nevermore
Living End: Rule of Law / Ethersworn Canonist
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
Some Gifts Control decks, as I said earlier, pack the Punishing Groves engine with Loam recursion; Leyline won't solve all your problems with those decks, as they'll keep continuously wiping the board and finish you off with Goyf/V. Clique/Tiago/Eternal Witness/Worm Harvest.
I'm not sure about the UR Fae match-up. Most of them run the Pester Twin combo, so that'll be a major distraction, but they can just finish you off by running the tempo game instead.
sorry for my poor english)))
Death Cloud is a tough matchup for us. Looks like Nevermore can work for that, but what else?
I suppose Suppression Field can slow them down. Having to pay 2 to sac a Sakura Tribe Elder or 2 to activate Garruk's abilities can stall enough so that we won't have to worry about a t4 cloud to wipe us.
any other suggestions? What about against restore balance? Rule of Law... Heck even Nevermore.
:symwr:BorosBGR Living End(Primer) W Soul Sisters Tokens
UGrand Architect+Pili-Pala Infinite combo:symq::chaos:
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Mistveil Plains
12 Plains
1 Figure of Destiny
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Ranger of Eos
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Squadron Hawk
1 Sun Titan
1 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
3 Proclamation of Rebirth
3 Wrath of God
3 Ghostly Prison
1 Kami of False Hope
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Mana Tithe
3 Suppression Field
I like most of the changes from Warnock's list, but I still don't like 4 Mana Tithe in the board. Are they really worth it?
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
Is it worth it ? Are there any relevant enchantments to hit ?