Let's not pretend that a ramp player doesn't have plenty of opportunities to lose to their own poor play, though. There are some matchups in which your plays are relatively scripted, but there are also lots of matchups in which you can beat a stronger draw by being the stronger player, and lose despite drawing better than your opponent because you were outplayed.
I agree that Delver is a more skill-intensive deck, especially in the context of a long high-level tournament like an SCG Open or a PT or GP, but to be quite honest, at the FNM level I think Delver decks get nut draws that are easier to win with and beat a wider range of decks, compared to ramp decks, and it can often feel as if skill level means nothing when a turn-1 Delver flips on the first try and goes on to win the game.
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Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
In 2 months of playing ramp I made 1 glaring mistake: Swung an early inkmoth into a really unexpected gutshot. And that's about the worst and only big mistake you can make with ramp. If you run Garruk or Sword you introduce chances for mistakes but man.. mainboard the deck is just a breeze to play.
After having played both ramp and delver, ramp is MUCH easier to play.
Of course you can still make mistakes with ramp that can cost you, but the same could be said of any deck.
Delver has infinitely more interaction and possible plays, making it harder to pilot, while wolf run ramp has a much more linear and straightforward game plan.
UB came in 9th and 10th, 2 virtual top rights. Also it's strong against ramp and while not as good as the Geist-blade MU, is pretty strong against the new spirits deck as it runs so few counters. It eats random midrange decks as well, the only scary decks are humans (at least in my experience), mono green and tempered steel.
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Standard: Humanimator
Modern: Jund, Wafo-Tapa UWR
Legacy: Witch-Maw Stoneblade
EDH: Ruhan of the Fomori, Hazezon Tamar, Maga, Traitor to Mortals
UB came in 9th and 10th, 2 virtual top rights. Also it's strong against ramp and while not as good as the Geist-blade MU, is pretty strong against the new spirits deck as it runs so few counters. It eats random midrange decks as well, the only scary decks are humans (at least in my experience), mono green and tempered steel.
I get stomped VS Tempered Steel, hard matchup !!!
But yeah the deck is very good, finished 3rd at last 30 man FNM with a version similar to the Honolulu's decklists, very happy with the deck, not playing Lili was wonderfull for me !
In my experience, i don't have a LOT of trouble with Humans, Curses and Zenith are key players for that matchup.
Really, UB is great right now !
Inappropriate language edited out. Warning issued. - Madding
Delver's decisions tree's are complicated and can dictate a match but in my experience as a deck, it is less weak to Wolf Run, but at the same moment Esper Spirits is able to beat traditional "Mage Blade" but seems to be much weaker to Wolf Run. Its a tough balance, and when the MODO grinders get ahold of DKA, I think a Hybrid Delver will emerge that is a mix between the two lists that will do well. Some of the T8 decks from Charlotte are already moving towards real removal, ie Dismember. I could see a Curse or Elesh deck being good right now, people are also starting to realize how good Geralf's Messenger can be, I think we still a few weeks before the best decklists get weeded out.
But yeah the deck is very good, finished 3rd at last 30 man FNM with a version similar to the Honolulu's decklists, very happy with the deck, not playing Lili was wonderfull for me !
U/B only played lili for a week or two after she came out before realizing that she is terrible in U/B.
I have no idea what you guys are talking about. Players were using Liliana in U/B all the way up to DKA. Not EVERY U/B list had her, but plenty enough to consider her. She was in MODO lists, event lists, etc. the last few weeks before DKA -- that's for sure.
EDIT: The fact that Geist started being played everywhere, might have made players reconsider playing her again -- so that may be why there was a resurgence in Liliana use. Black Sun for X. You play Geist? I'll play Liliana and use her -2.
I have no idea what you guys are talking about. Players were using Liliana in U/B all the way up to DKA. Not EVERY U/B list had her, but plenty enough to consider her. She was in MODO lists, event lists, etc. the last few weeks before DKA -- that's for sure.
The fact that Geist started being played everywhere, might have made a difference.
I'd say Geist would be the only reason to play her. she's little more than an edict with some benefits. it's true she gets insane if she sticks around, but if all the other guy has is a Geist and no other action he's probably in the hurt locker against UB anyway.
Take your monoblack deck, then set aside 14 swamps. Add 4 Creeping Tar Pits, 4 Darkslick Shores, 4 Drowned Catacombs, and 2 Jwar isle Refuge and add 4 Jace, the Mindsculptors. Your monoblack deck is instantly better. Better yet, drop those refuges, throw in some islands and some mana leaks, and lo and behold, you're now playing a real deck. Congratulations. Welcome to the world of competitive M:TG.
I'd say Geist would be the only reason to play her. she's little more than an edict with some benefits. it's true she gets insane if she sticks around, but if all the other guy has is a Geist and no other action he's probably in the hurt locker against UB anyway.
I completely wrote that wrong. That's what I was leading toward. If there were less players using Liliana in UB, Geist being used everywhere, only gave them more of a reason to reconsider. Of course, I've seen more Tribute to Hunger over Liliana lately.
UB came in 9th and 10th, 2 virtual top rights. Also it's strong against ramp and while not as good as the Geist-blade MU, is pretty strong against the new spirits deck as it runs so few counters. It eats random midrange decks as well, the only scary decks are humans (at least in my experience), mono green and tempered steel.
If we want to nitpick and start talking about "virtual top eights", then we might as well understand that this was a mixed format PT; the Top 8 of this event were not the Top 8 performers in Standard. For example, ten decks scored 24 points or better in Standard but did only three of them made Top 8. On the opposite side of the spectrum: Denniz Rachid and Jon Finkel scored only 20 points in Standard, but made Top 8 by a perfect score in Draft. To look at the best Standard decks, we need to look at the scores during Standard.
That having been said, Robert Jurkovic (who finished 10th) was only one of five players that scored 27 points or better (9 wins) in 10 rounds of Standard.
* - Martell, Pham, Nordahl, and Beasley are the only players on this list who scored fewer than 9 points in the Draft portion. Since pairings care about total scores, it might be the case that these players had an easier time in the second leg of the Standard portion as compared to other decks with similar Standard scores.
Flashfreeze is awkward if the ramp players are playing Conley Woods' list (with Grave Titan) or the white version (with Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite) but it counters Rampant Growth, Slagstorm, Inferno Titan and Primeval Titan against the traditional RG version. Huntmaster doesn't change the allure of Flashfreeze; people who were playing it before will continue to play it and people who were not playing it before will continue to not play it.
I agree that Delver is a more skill-intensive deck, especially in the context of a long high-level tournament like an SCG Open or a PT or GP, but to be quite honest, at the FNM level I think Delver decks get nut draws that are easier to win with and beat a wider range of decks, compared to ramp decks, and it can often feel as if skill level means nothing when a turn-1 Delver flips on the first try and goes on to win the game.
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
Of course you can still make mistakes with ramp that can cost you, but the same could be said of any deck.
Delver has infinitely more interaction and possible plays, making it harder to pilot, while wolf run ramp has a much more linear and straightforward game plan.
Modern: Jund, Wafo-Tapa UWR
Legacy: Witch-Maw Stoneblade
EDH: Ruhan of the Fomori, Hazezon Tamar, Maga, Traitor to Mortals
I get stomped VS Tempered Steel, hard matchup !!!
But yeah the deck is very good, finished 3rd at last 30 man FNM with a version similar to the Honolulu's decklists, very happy with the deck, not playing Lili was wonderfull for me !
In my experience, i don't have a LOT of trouble with Humans, Curses and Zenith are key players for that matchup.
Really, UB is great right now !
Inappropriate language edited out. Warning issued. - Madding
U/B only played lili for a week or two after she came out before realizing that she is terrible in U/B.
EDIT: The fact that Geist started being played everywhere, might have made players reconsider playing her again -- so that may be why there was a resurgence in Liliana use. Black Sun for X. You play Geist? I'll play Liliana and use her -2.
I'd say Geist would be the only reason to play her. she's little more than an edict with some benefits. it's true she gets insane if she sticks around, but if all the other guy has is a Geist and no other action he's probably in the hurt locker against UB anyway.
Yeah, this. Liliana vs. Lingering Souls or Huntmaster of the Fells seems awkward at best.
2011-2012:Bantblade, BantPod
2010-2011:Bant Shaman, Naya Shaman, Naya allies + Scars, URG Turboforce
2009-2010:Naya allies, Mono-White Titan Control
I completely wrote that wrong. That's what I was leading toward. If there were less players using Liliana in UB, Geist being used everywhere, only gave them more of a reason to reconsider. Of course, I've seen more Tribute to Hunger over Liliana lately.
If we want to nitpick and start talking about "virtual top eights", then we might as well understand that this was a mixed format PT; the Top 8 of this event were not the Top 8 performers in Standard. For example, ten decks scored 24 points or better in Standard but did only three of them made Top 8. On the opposite side of the spectrum: Denniz Rachid and Jon Finkel scored only 20 points in Standard, but made Top 8 by a perfect score in Draft. To look at the best Standard decks, we need to look at the scores during Standard.
That having been said, Robert Jurkovic (who finished 10th) was only one of five players that scored 27 points or better (9 wins) in 10 rounds of Standard.
Matthew Costa (28 points in Standard): UW Delver with Invisible Stalker and Sword of War and Peace.
Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa (27): RG Wolf Run Ramp.
Robert Jurkovic (27): UB Control.
Tom Martell (27*): Esper spirits with Drogskol Captain and Dungeon Geists.
Daniel Pham (27*): Naya-colored midrange beatdown with Gavony Township and Overrun.
Dan Jordan (25): UW Humans with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
Jelger Wiegersma (24): Esper spirits with Drogskol Captain and Dungeon Geists.
Ben Wienburg (24): UW Delver with Illusions.
Lucas Terrier (24): Five-color reanimator with Faithless Looting and Unburial Rites. ("Frites")
Andreas Nordahl (24*): UW Humans with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
Mamoru Nagai (22): Black/Green Wolf Run Ramp with Grave Titan. ("Conley Ramp")
Lucas Blohon (22): Naya-colored deck with Birthing Pod.
Brian Kibler (22): RG Wolf Run Ramp.
Samuele Estratti (22): UW Delver with Geist of Saint Traft and Runechanter's Pike.
Todd Anderson (22): Green-based aggro.
Daniel Grenier (22): UW Delver with Geist of Saint Traft and Runechanter's Pike.
Bernd Brendemuhl (22): UR Tempo with Delver of Secrets and burn.
Shuuhei Nakamura (22): UW Delver with Geist of Saint Traft and Sword of War and Peace.
Gerry Thompson (22): Esper spirits with Drogskol Captain and Dungeon Geists.
Yuusuke Iwasaki (22): Naya-colored deck with Birthing Pod and Kessig Wolf Run.
Reid Duke (22): Grixis-colored Control deck with Desperate Ravings and Faithless Looting, but no reanimation.
Robert Dougherty (22): White/black tokens with Intangible Virtue, Honor of the Pure, and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad.
Robert van Medewoort (22): Black/Green Wolf Run Ramp with Grave Titan. ("Conley Ramp")
Basil Nabi (22): UW Humans with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
Raphael Levy (22): Five-color reanimator with Faithless Looting and Unburial Rites. ("Frites")
Jasper Johnson-Epstein (22): Mono-black with Geralf's Messenger.
Orrin Beasley (22*): Esper-colored control deck with Liliana of the Veil, Gideon Jura, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, and Elspeth Tirel.
* - Martell, Pham, Nordahl, and Beasley are the only players on this list who scored fewer than 9 points in the Draft portion. Since pairings care about total scores, it might be the case that these players had an easier time in the second leg of the Standard portion as compared to other decks with similar Standard scores.
With each deck, I've listed some cards choices that should give you a pretty idea of the entire decklist. For example, "Esper spirits with Drogskol Captain and Dungeon Geists" means there is no room for Geist of Saint Traft. On the other hand something like "UW Delver with Geist of Saint Traft and Runechanter's Pike" means there is no Sword of War and Peace in the list.
I don't think that Huntmaster of the Fells makes Flashfreeze any more critical in the matchup.
Flashfreeze is awkward if the ramp players are playing Conley Woods' list (with Grave Titan) or the white version (with Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite) but it counters Rampant Growth, Slagstorm, Inferno Titan and Primeval Titan against the traditional RG version. Huntmaster doesn't change the allure of Flashfreeze; people who were playing it before will continue to play it and people who were not playing it before will continue to not play it.