That's exacly why it has 67 cards and avarage drop at 2,5 level (besides, matches are a bit longer than normally). In most cases You can wait additional turn or two to put somthing big onto play. It means also putting two Exemplars one after another, to ensure that it will grant immediate combo.
It can't be shortened by those 7 cards, by reducing things that are not critical. But still, the CMC and avarage drop is too high to make it competitive for most legacy deck in 1vs1. Of course, for some reasons it is also not the high-budget deck (it cost will be about 150$, not so high in compare with top options I think).
I also agree that Hero of Bladehold is in fact one of the biggest monster in 2headed (when in 1vs1 it is "just" fine, not remarkable, for most of players), especially when indestructible. It grants almost certain 8dmg dealed to creatures/player. Quite annoying.
I guess you are probably right, 2-headed giant games in legacy format is going to be totally different from 1v1 competitive legacy games. The tempo is completely different judging from your descriptions of the gameplay and how the cards work. Imagine trying to play round Daze and Mana Leak with those high CMC spells or opponent using a 1cc or 2cc removal on your 4cc-6cc spells - that is if you ever reach that amount of mana before it's too late to turn the game around.
You are definitely right on the competitiveness of your deck in 1v1 though, I'm pretty sure the CMC/average drop and lack of consistency will hurt against opposing decks.
Hey there guys! I was thinking of making knight deck and I stumbled upon this thread. Really loot of awesome ideas, I haven't gone through it all as that would take me whole day probably, but lot of nice ideas. I made up my knight deck as well, don't know how it will work yet, but I ordered few cards. I had most of the cards already, that's why I decided to make something like this:
dunno if running 20 lands is such a good idea, but with aether vial and knight of the white orchid, it hopefully won't hurt much ... dunno about other lands beside plains ...
Looks like a solid deck that has all the essentials. 20 land should be fine, as your curve tops out at 3, and you have KotWO/Vial (as you mentioned). I could see people suggesting to fit in some equipment in there (Either Stoneforge Mystic package or just a few swords) or Elspeth, perhaps instead of Knight of the Holy Nimbus, but I think you're fine either way.
NINJA EDIT: As far as other lands go, you probably don't need to include nonbasics (with most people running Wastelands out there), but Flagstones of Trokair or Emeria, the Sky Ruin might be ok. The latter will get hit by Wasteland all the time, but it's worth a shot.
Hey there guys! I was thinking of making knight deck and I stumbled upon this thread. Really loot of awesome ideas, I haven't gone through it all as that would take me whole day probably, but lot of nice ideas. I made up my knight deck as well, don't know how it will work yet, but I ordered few cards. I had most of the cards already, that's why I decided to make something like this:
dunno if running 20 lands is such a good idea, but with aether vial and knight of the white orchid, it hopefully won't hurt much ... dunno about other lands beside plains ...
As AEIOUsometimesY has pointed out, the essentials are already there. And this is a sturdy deck list which should be able to compete against competitive control or aggro decks.
This is also a very honest aggro deck without much combat tricks (besides Mother of Runes) - but the protection from Mother and Mirran Crusader could mess up opponents all day long. The deck has a lack of card advantage but that is prevalent with most mono-W or heavy W decks so just saying.
That said, this deck could well give the Legacy Goblins or Merfolks a run for their reputation (as Tier one Tribes). Adding in Stoneforge with SoFI will turn the tide in your favor easily.
Thanks for your replies. I was thinking about Stoneforge Mystic, but I don't have any swords and they are quite expensive. I do have Umezawa's Jitte and Batterskull though, so was thinking about trying those as well along with Mystics. But I will first try these pure knights and see how will that go ... and later I will try giving in some equipment as well ...
Yeah, the only thing I am afraid of is the card advantage, but you are hopefully right in this ;-) ... dunno about the Silver Knight, not that many people playing red around here, I will probably stick up with those other ones for now ;-)
I will give feedback from matches asap, but I just ordered some cards into these, so it will take a week at least to get them, but I am looking forward to play them really much ;-) ... anyway, take care fellas
No problem! How is your playtesting with Pure Knights going along?
Silver knight is a personal choice. I could swap them with Knight of the White Orchid when my playgroup has 4-5 Goblins deck (GR, BR & R). All the merfolk players seems to have quitted.
Some Matchups update:
Yesterday I played against my mate's home-brewed UWB Snapcaster deck (looks like a variant of Team America but with a W splash) with key components such as:
That's what I could recall from his deck, which is almost everything I guess :rolleyes:.
Before the game I had an idea (it's not difficult to guess what are the spells - the usual suspects again) what I was up against, while my mate knows my deck inside-out since he has seen and played against it for the longest time. I thought it would be an average matchup but surprisingly, I managed to win all 4 games pretty comfortably, with average draws for both of us (no god hands here). I also expected him to mana-screw but he didnt, managing to cast his Jace and Hymns pretty easily.
I even had a game which he managed to cast 4 Snapcaster mage and in the process Swords to Plowshares me 6 times and Thoughtseize me twice. One of the Thoughseize was used on my Stoneforge after JTMS bounced it. Eventually I managed to overcome him because I had a Sword of Fire and Ice in play, and managed to equip a creature which he ran out of removals for. JTMS couldnt bounce the creature so it was a foregone conclusion.
It's nice to know Legacy Knights still has a decent matchup against control, although against Combo it's still an auto-loss.
I was building a mono white deck of knights, but I would like to play with a deck more 'interesting', so I started building a BW deck, with hakoon, using Buried Alive, Nameless Inversion and Mask of Memory. I would like to build it with Entomb, some swords and AEther Vial, but in my country, Brazil, these cards are VERY expensive, so, I'll build it with those other cards, and maybe in the future I'll use, Entomb, the swords and AEther Vial, but I don't know, when.
I didn't build the side yet.
I would like you give me opinions about the deck and what should I change, maybe I could put some discards or something like that?
So, that's it! Hope that you can help me!
Thank you and bye!
Hey there! sorry it took a little bit longer to get cards from other side of the planet. And I also ordered a little bit more than I wanted to at the beggining (damn this addicting game ). Tried it today for the 1st time, my deck looks like this atm:
Didn't play that many games, but my friend's merfolks didn't stand much chance against it. The only time I lost was against kind of a green/red "beast" deck and I think that was mostly my fault, because I should have reshuffled at the beggining and my opponent had a perfect draw. Anyway I was really happy with this deck and atm it probably is my strongest deck ( I don't think goblins could beat it easily). First time I am using Swords and Umezawa's Jitte and damn, those cards are just super powerful, they can single handedly change the game. I might also try the pure knights I was writing about before, it might be more fun, though I don't think it will be that powerful. We'll see
Only problem is that I don't have that much people around here, who could play, so can't try it as much as I would love to
Great you had fun with Knights. What I liked about the knights is their first striking ability which kills merfolks and goblins easily. Even a pumped up 3/2 Silvergill Adept or a 5/2 Goblin Piledriver could barely make a dent on the knight's armor.
Merfolks and Goblins are good matchups for Knights. Against Knights, if both decks fail to start off with a Aether Vial, knights will usually romp to victory. I have 4 goblins deck in my playgroup, 2 of them Tier one, and I usually win around 80% of the games. The same goes with Merfolks, which is an even easier matchup. Whenever a Sword lands or they run out of gas it is usually good game. At least Goblins has Tin Street Hooligan to destroy our swords and Goblin Ringleader for gas, Merfolks main route to victory is usually overwhelming lords or a flying Coralhelm Commander. I usally aim my limited removal spells on Commander.
I was building a mono white deck of knights, but I would like to play with a deck more 'interesting', so I started building a BW deck, with hakoon, using Buried Alive, Nameless Inversion and Mask of Memory. I would like to build it with Entomb, some swords and AEther Vial, but in my country, Brazil, these cards are VERY expensive, so, I'll build it with those other cards, and maybe in the future I'll use, Entomb, the swords and AEther Vial, but I don't know, when.
I didn't build the side yet.
I would like you give me opinions about the deck and what should I change, maybe I could put some discards or something like that?
So, that's it! Hope that you can help me!
Thank you and bye!
Rodrigo Reis
Welcome to Legacy Knights and MTGS!!!
Interesting that you are using Mask of Memory as one of your discard source which could also act as a potential CA when you discard a knight creature. Pretty creative I must say ;). The main problem I foresee is the lack of evasion in knights. That said, the equipment might work because you have Mother of Runes, Mirran Crusader, Paladin en-Vec & Stillmoon Cavalier and their protection from various colors may give your knight the opportunity to deal combat damage.
Aether Vial is quite important to the deck, as it provides Haakon, Stromgald Scourge with an additional way to enter the battlefield. But since you don't have Vial, I'll focus on having more ways to dump him into the graveyard.
Raven's Crime could be suitable here. It can be used on your opponent in the first few turns, and you could Retrace it when you eventually draw into Haakon. You can also catch your opponent unaware with a sudden discard just when he least expected it (trust me, cards like this can be easily forgotten as the game goes on). Cabal Therapy is a more demanding card from a skill perspective, allowing us a peep at the opponent's hand. You could also blindly call for a Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile to pave the way for the knights lord - Knight Exemplar & Haakon to come down later. Cabal Therapy is chosen over other discard spells because it's flashback ability allows us to dump Haakon later.
I saw that you have 42 non-land cards and no lands. That I can understand. The land base can only be determined once we finalised on the card choices. With Haakon being such a mana intensive strategy (you don't want to finally get Haakon & good knights into the graveyard only to end up with not enough lands to cast them!) We need at least 22 lands. My BW Knights list has Dark Confidant to help dig for lands. I think Confidant might be expensive but since you already have Mother of Runes I wouldnt want to play too many non-knight creatures.
As you mentioned, if some of these cards are very expensive in Brazil. I'm concerned if you are able to attain the necessary lands. We definitely need to play the likes of Godless Shrine, Marsh Flats and Scrubland because of the WW in most knights and the BB required for Haakon. The deck cannot operate efficiently without a stable mana base and the lack of Aether Vial further exacerbate the situation.
Alternatively, you could run Isolated Chapel as a more budget option. I'm keen to help you on your BW Haakon deck "project", but would like to know how competitive your meta is.
First, I forgot to say thanks for the helpful topic, It's perfect to help beginners like me, and now thanks for the answers!!!
Well, the prices are the biggest problem, I'll give you an exemple. I saw the highest price of the Scrubland on magiccards.info, it's $80.00, here in Brazil, the average price is R$170.00. I don't know to you, but to me it's very expensive...
About the cards that you suggested, I thought about using Raven's Crime, but I didn't know if it was a good idea, so you told about Cabal Therapy, and the effect would be similar to Raven's Crime in my deck, but I think Raven's Crime would be better, because the opponent would definately discard a card and it's cheaper.
Now about Dark Confidant, I THINK that Mask of Memory would do his job (but not as efficiently)... what's your opinion?
About Honor of The Pure, I was insecure of using it, so, how you suggested, I'll use Raven's Crime in it's place. But I didn't get why taking Kinsbaile Cavalier out, can you explain me your opinion? I don't know in the BW deck, but in my W It works very well.
About the lands, I didn't researched about it yet, I'll let it for the future (actually, after defining my nonlands cards and sidedeck), but yes, the lands are expensive too, but there's no another way, I'll have to save money.
And your last question, the deck is more for fun than to competitive, but I have plans to use it in competitive too...
I think that's it, thank you again, you're helping me a lot!
First, I forgot to say thanks for the helpful topic, It's perfect to help beginners like me, and now thanks for the answers!!!
Thanks! It's nice to know there are people reading and finding the thread useful. That's what I set out for when I wrote the primer. And I appreciate your feedback very much :).
Well, the prices are the biggest problem, I'll give you an exemple. I saw the highest price of the Scrubland on magiccards.info, it's $80.00, here in Brazil, the average price is R$170.00. I don't know to you, but to me it's very expensive...
Expensive is a relative term, and yes, that to me it is also expensive. I play EDH too, and I don't mind splashing USD80 for a card, but when I need to spend USD320 for a playset I think long and hard over it. I got most of my duals when the prices were depressed last year and also won some of them around the same time in my LGS tournaments with Legacy Knights (knights thrived in my control-dominated meta back then).
About the cards that you suggested, I thought about using Raven's Crime, but I didn't know if it was a good idea, so you told about Cabal Therapy, and the effect would be similar to Raven's Crime in my deck, but I think Raven's Crime would be better, because the opponent would definately discard a card and it's cheaper.
It's your call. I prefer Cabal Therapy - although I hated calling the wrong card - happens most of the time :embarrass:. But Raven's Crime is a not too shabby replacement and it's easier to play with - and cheaper.
Now about Dark Confidant, I THINK that Mask of Memory would do his job (but not as efficiently)... what's your opinion?
I felt Mask of Memory is worth a shot. This equipment when combined with Mother of Runes might be able to send your knights through for combat damage. It's also good against deck with few creatures since they will have less blockers around. That said, I usually do not activate Mother's ability unless in response to removals. You will need to know how to play around the equipment and Mother's ability effectively to be able to exploit the equipment to the max. At best, you have a knight with the appropriate protection to equip with. At worse, you could always enlist mommy's help.
About Honor of The Pure, I was insecure of using it, so, how you suggested, I'll use Raven's Crime in it's place. But I didn't get why taking Kinsbaile Cavalier out, can you explain me your opinion? I don't know in the BW deck, but in my W It works very well.
Since part of the deck strategy is to recycle knights via Haakon, it's not advisable to have a 4cc knight around. Firstly, it increase the mana curve of the deck, secondly it's very clumsy to cast from the graveyard. There is also tempo problems here, as you can imagine this scenario:
4th Turn: drop Haakon into graveyard with a spell or effect
5th Turn: cast Haakon from graveyard (probably no mana left)
6th Turn: cast Kinsbaile Cavalier (probably no mana left)
That is probably not casting any other spells for 2-3 turns in between casting Haakon and a 4cc Cavalier.
The Haakon strategy also tend to let us play multiple spells a turn (both from hand & graveyard) and a 4cc card may cost us tempo. I struggled to recast 3cc Knights even. I usually end up recasting the 1cc & 2cc knights mostly when Haakon is active.
About the lands, I didn't researched about it yet, I'll let it for the future (actually, after defining my nonlands cards and sidedeck), but yes, the lands are expensive too, but there's no another way, I'll have to save money.
And your last question, the deck is more for fun than to competitive, but I have plans to use it in competitive too...
I think that's it, thank you again, you're helping me a lot!
Rodrigo Reis
I think at the very least, you'll need 4x Marsh Flats and maybe 1 or 2 Scrubland or Godless Shrine. That will ensure the deck can function properly. Any improvement on the manabase will definitely add to the deck consistency and power level so it's up to you eventually. You can always playtest with the essentials first and see how you wanna advance from there.
I think you probably have a good idea on how to approach the deck, have fun with Legacy Knights!
Man, thanks a lot!!! You really helped me! Now I've to build a side, do you have any suggests??
Rodrigo Reis
Sure, could you come out with a list of the better knight creatures you have and some of the cards which you intend to buy? I have an idea of the decklist you can go for, but would prefer to suggest a list which is already close to what you currently have (you mentioned earlier you were initally building a mono-knights so I guess you are somewhere there), which we could improve and enhance from there. I think it is more productive this way ;).
Well, as you can se, it's a newbie deck, hahahahaha! That's because it's my first deck, and I'm new on Magic... Most of my cards were a gift from a friend.
I think that's what you asked, so, THANK YOU A LOT again, and bye!
Another fast question, do you think it's better that I continue building my mono white deck, or It would be better to build a Black and White one?
Well, as you can se, it's a newbie deck, hahahahaha! That's because it's my first deck, and I'm new on Magic... Most of my cards were a gift from a friend.
I think that's what you asked, so, THANK YOU A LOT again, and bye!
Another fast question, do you think it's better that I continue building my mono white deck, or It would be better to build a Black and White one?
Haha, that's nice of your friend, anyway you gotta start somewhere, and as a start, this is actually a decent aggro deck to begin with. Simple but effective with a good mana curve and the right mix of creatures. Honor of the Pure is actually good in this deck.
I don't know how to answer your question on which to build (It really depends on what are the next few cards you are going to buy), looking at what you have currently, my suggestions on a BW Knights list (based on your preliminary list and some additional new cards) will be something like this:
So if you decide to stick to mono color you would save on Marsh Flats, Godless Shrine and Isolated Chapel. Compared to your current list, the BW list is a mid-game deck so it’s unlikely to win quickly like what your existing W knights list could, but it will be more resilient against board wipe, and to me, playing 2 colors is always more enjoyable than a mono color deck.
What a great name for the deck, THE MASK OF HAAKON! hahahahaha
Yes, that will be my deck
I'll start buying the white cards, then I'll buy the black ones and the lands.
Now I'll build my sideboard, do you thing the onde that you posted on the tutorial, Black & White Legacy Knights, Haakon's Confidant, would be good to my deck?
I was thinking of using Leonin Relic-Warder and some knights with protection on the sideboard. What do you think?
What a great name for the deck, THE MASK OF HAAKON! hahahahaha
Yes, that will be my deck
I'll start buying the white cards, then I'll buy the black ones and the lands.
Now I'll build my sideboard, do you thing the onde that you posted on the tutorial, Black & White Legacy Knights, Haakon's Confidant, would be good to my deck?
I was thinking of using Leonin Relic-Warder and some knights with protection on the sideboard. What do you think?
Thank you again!
Rodrigo
Yeah, I did the same too. I brought all the white cards, then went on to buy cards from other colors when I started splashing different colors for different versions of knights.
The deck was last played in around May-July 2011, therefore the sideboard was actually suited to that meta. If I don't recall wrongly, Mental Mistep was still rampant, and Snapcaster Mage was certainly not around (thus I wasn't seeing the likes of 8x Swords to Plowshares pre-board and 6x Plowshares & 6x Path to Exile post-board compared to now :rolleyes:)
You could have 3 Disenchant for artifact/enchantments and 2 Vindicate (Oblivion Ring a cheaper alternative) in your sideboard as utility. As usual, the graveyard hate and perhaps some protection spells for knights(rather than Knight creatures with protection). These protection spells could be Faith's Shield - it can protect Haakon as well.
I have a sideboard below for you (with no knowlege of your meta), please take note there is no protection against combo at all.
UWB Snapcaster Control Mono R Goblins W-L @ 90%-10% (20+ games) BR Goblins W-L @ 80%-20% (Several games) GR Goblins W-L @ 80%-20% (20+ games)
Team America W-L @ 40%-60% (few games) UW Stoneblade W-L @ 60%-40% (few games)
Bant @ 70%-30% (few games) GW W-L @ 40%-60% (several games)
Mono W Death and Taxes W-L @ 65%-35% (10+ games)
Dredge @ 10-90% (few games)
Storm @ 0-100% (few games)
I will be moving on to the WU list again.
The decklist below was what I attempted last year with UW, however due to the increase in targeted removals and Mother of Runes emergence as a key W creature, I can't see any reason not to run her. As such, I have a headache - there's not enough Knight creatures to justify playing Knight Exemplar or even calling the deck Knights Tribal!
This is the first ever knight list which I didn't play any Student of Warfare. I reckon since we already have 12 one-drops, and they are always going to be played before student, I should play 2 or 3 drops knights such as Knight of Meadowgrain for lifelink and Mirran Crusader for quick beatdown. We probably won't have mana to pump Student since we have to keep mana for Remand, instant spells or equipping.
OLD!!!Blue & White Legacy Knights, Vial Knights March 2011
Hey there! been a while! I've played a couple of games, still not many people to play with(though I contacted some local folks I found on mtg forums finally!). I am playing the same deck as before
It is the same as I had before, except I changed Batterskull to Angelic Destiny(only because I got it in a booster and wanted to use such a bad ass card lol ), but gonna change it back, not such a good idea probably ... Anyway, against my friend who has some decent decks and they are quite expenise, they almost always win, probably only had a 1/10 looses. Yet last week I played agaist a friend who does not have cards more worth than 2$, yet he beat me 3/4 games ... I lost against kind of red land destruction(he destroyed both my vials as well as all the small creatures I could pop in) and also agaist infect(couldn't stop it by turn 4-5) ... often I find myself that my opponent does not have cards while I still have 2-3 on my hand, I was thinking of changing a couple of mirran crusaders/knight exemplars to something worth 1mana, though I have no idea what it should be, I don't have any good dual lands, so I don't think I can afford any other color ... what do you think? Maybe just getting 2more lands?
Thanks for the reply! and thanks for this thread as well, it's great!
Glad to know you enjoyed the thread ;), but sorry to hear about your troubles and problems with your matchups....
Could you tell us the type of decks your friends are playing currently? Are they playing Dredge? Or are they casting Moat on turn 4? Or even playing Counterbalance strategies or Ensnaring Bridge and you have no artifacts/enchantment removals.
I played against Land Destruction and my opponent couldn't handle Aether Vial (if he sideboarded in Crush then we probably had no chance), but if he could destroy your land, vial and creatures at the same time I think you probably had a bad draw...:embarrass:.
Infect gives us a hard time, I know them. They could just send a random flying creature such as Plague Stinger and Flesh-Eater Imp with a few pump spells over and we'll be dead before we even know it. Not drawing Swords to Plowshares means almost means auto loss. Heck, even the Necropede can stops our equipment Swords for a turn. Unfortunately I don't have a good solution to infect other than playing more removal spells (which I'm not prepared to tit the balance of the deck). You might want to consider including 4x Leonin Skyhunter to replace some Knight of Meadowgrain and Mirran Crusader if you really need knights with flying.
How important has the indestructibility been in testing?
It almost feels like every single removal in legacy is either an edict or an exile effect.
Maybe focusing on the swords + creatures with protection from colors is a better 3 drop strategy? T2 stoneforge, T3 Mirran, T4 Sword swing would be the idea.
I know Mirran crusader + Sword of war and peace is basically instant win. I'd imagine Stillmoon Cavalier + Sword of Fire and Ice is probably brutal too.
Exemplar is probably the reason you wanted to make the deck, but there are a lot of great 3 drops out there. KOTR/Mirran are two of the best of any, and they just so happen to be a knights; yet Exemplar limits them.
I think the issue this deck is going to have until something new is printed is that it's not really worthwhile to limit yourself to playing Knights, because only one card (Knight Exemplar) affects Knights, versus a deck like Merfolk where you have a lot more interactions. The good news is that you have at least one other excellent Knight to play in Knight of the Reliquary. The bad news is, there are a ton of non-Knights that you just have to play because they are just too good, i.e: Pridemage, Goyf, Stoneforge, etc.
(Side-note: Would Knights actually be an awesome Modern deck, a format where Path is the best removal and the interaction with Knight of the White Orchid would be worthwhile?)
Anywho, I think indestructibility is still valuable due to combat, despite all of the exiling removal. Having 4 Exemplars and 3-4 Metamorphs seems key, in order to spread the indestructibility around to the lords. And when you've got 2 or more lords in play, Metamorph can become an extra Knight of the Reliquary or something else good.
I think something that might push this deck over the edge would be if Waylay were un-errata'd, which I stumbled across while searching for cards that interact with Knights. White Lightning!
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
How important has the indestructibility been in testing?
It almost feels like every single removal in legacy is either an edict or an exile effect.
Maybe focusing on the swords + creatures with protection from colors is a better 3 drop strategy? T2 stoneforge, T3 Mirran, T4 Sword swing would be the idea.
I know Mirran crusader + Sword of war and peace is basically instant win. I'd imagine Stillmoon Cavalier + Sword of Fire and Ice is probably brutal too.
Exemplar is probably the reason you wanted to make the deck, but there are a lot of great 3 drops out there. KOTR/Mirran are two of the best of any, and they just so happen to be a knights; yet Exemplar limits them.
It's all down to the matchups. Although indestructibility is not relevant all the time, in most cases, the presence of Knight Exemplar does forces the opponent to expend their Exile spells on him thus leaving other important knights alone. Indestructibility as a strategy thumps other aggro strategies easily. Luckily most of the exile spells are with W. I'm usually relieved if I don't see W as one of my opponent's colors.
No doubt the protection strategies are very useful, Stillmoon Cavalier and Mirran Crusader have very relevant protection colors and with equipments they will be downright nasty, but the problem is this type of play is usually too clunky and vulnerable to disruption(and there are plenty in competitive legacy). I felt it was better not to focus the whole deck towards this but to go on a general direction of aggro and to equip as and when appropriate.
And you are correct. Knight Exemplar is the reason the deck exist, or even the creation of this thread. She was a better creature previously...unfortunately there are newly created removals like Dismember, Tragic Slip which makes indestructibility less powerful...
I think the issue this deck is going to have until something new is printed is that it's not really worthwhile to limit yourself to playing Knights, because only one card (Knight Exemplar) affects Knights, versus a deck like Merfolk where you have a lot more interactions. The good news is that you have at least one other excellent Knight to play in Knight of the Reliquary. The bad news is, there are a ton of non-Knights that you just have to play because they are just too good, i.e: Pridemage, Goyf, Stoneforge, etc.
(Side-note: Would Knights actually be an awesome Modern deck, a format where Path is the best removal and the interaction with Knight of the White Orchid would be worthwhile?)
Anywho, I think indestructibility is still valuable due to combat, despite all of the exiling removal. Having 4 Exemplars and 3-4 Metamorphs seems key, in order to spread the indestructibility around to the lords. And when you've got 2 or more lords in play, Metamorph can become an extra Knight of the Reliquary or something else good.
I think something that might push this deck over the edge would be if Waylay were un-errata'd, which I stumbled across while searching for cards that interact with Knights. White Lightning!
There is only one knight lord at the moment - Knight Exemplar, which is measly when compared to other tribes such as Merfolks, Elves or Goblins who has tons of lords. That said, individually, the knights are stronger on their own(from a combat perspective), and have protection from colors to mess up other deck strategies. Knights is also quite fortunate to share the same color with Stoneforge Mystic, thus allowing us to utilise her and the equipment swords easily. 2x protection colors from equipment Sword + knights' own protection is a protection from 3 colors.
Merfolk plays Phantasmal Image and Kira, Great Glass-Spinner as well, when a creature is good, it'll be played regardless of it's creature type. I also understand your point about playing tribal should be be dependent on what their lords bring, and the option to play more lords makes the tribe stronger obviously. Let's hope wizards will print more knight lords in future.
Modern Knights generate more interest than Legacy Knights, maybe because the meta has not settled and people are still willing to try new decks and concepts - unlike in Legacy whereby the main focus is on small modifying or alterations of existing top-tier strategies.
Path to Exile and it's the interaction with Knight of the White Orchid is useful, but that is about it. It just negate the drawback of giving opponent an additional land. This interaction does not happen often, but it's always nice to have some synergy available ;).
Indestructibility is relevant to combat, especially when it goes down to a war of attrition, which Knights will usually win, since we have first strike to chump block, we can usually delay long enough to drop a Knight Exemplar or 2, the equipment Swords and Phyrexian Metamorph also increase our chances of pulling ahead. Indestructibility also stops many "destroy creature/dealt damage" effects or spells, so it does stops some deck strategies as well.
Waylay is one sweet card which is very favourful, expecially with knights. I wouldnt mind more instant knights spells in future :rolleyes:.
Thanks for your reply ... first of all, I don't know the names of these famous decks that good yet, gotta google a lot, learning slowly
well about the land destruction it was pretty difficult, he played green/red and he could destroy my lands 2nd turn with birds/elf and he also played Pillage and some other green spells to take care of the artifacts ... so there wasn't much I could do about that ... I tried with playing few games with 4x Silence from sideboard to stop his early LD, but didn't really changed it that much. Still I think more chance than agaist infect.
nah they don't really play that mean things, only deck they have is Leyline of Sanctity + shroud creature + Worship which takes a lot of cards and can be stopped easily by removing Worship
and yeah it does mess up a lot of strategies, Mother of runes is awesome along with first strike knights, especially Mirran Crusader and one of the equipment. Creature decks don't stand that much chance usually agaist this, but I have been quite some problems with cotrol decks
Depending on your players in your playgroup or LGS, for me I tend to see plenty of very competitive decks such as Bant, UB Stoneblade/ UW Stoneblade, Team America, Delver Control, Mono-U control, Goblins, Counterbalance, Zoo, GW Maverick, Punishing Maverick etc in my area, so my decktesting are mostly against these types of decks.
Unfortunately your opponent was playing Pillage as well, so Vial didn't manage to give you an advantage. I don't know, you were playing the mono-W version without any non-basics, so you were at least immune to his wasteland. Besides, the decks which I described above in my meta should beat land-D easily thus I'm not worried about facing and losing to Land-D - it's not a viable strategy in my meta so to speak. Infect, I just write off as a tough matchup which I usually lose to, therefore sorry can't help much here :embarrass:.
If enchantment/artifacts is a problem, you could try running a few Leonin Relic-Warder in the mainboard. It can be vialed into play(which evades counterspell) to exile those pesky items. I actually run at least 3 copies when I go mono-W.
The deck should also have a fair chance against control, we have a better game against UB control then UW. I have played many games against control and our chances can actually be put at 50%-50%. Control is much harder to pilot than our Aggro, so against a less-experienced player we could even go 60%-40% in our favor.
I think the issue this deck is going to have until something new is printed is that it's not really worthwhile to limit yourself to playing Knights, because only one card (Knight Exemplar) affects Knights, versus a deck like Merfolk where you have a lot more interactions. The good news is that you have at least one other excellent Knight to play in Knight of the Reliquary. The bad news is, there are a ton of non-Knights that you just have to play because they are just too good, i.e: Pridemage, Goyf, Stoneforge, etc.
...Anywho, I think indestructibility is still valuable due to combat, despite all of the exiling removal. Having 4 Exemplars and 3-4 Metamorphs seems key, in order to spread the indestructibility around to the lords. And when you've got 2 or more lords in play, Metamorph can become an extra Knight of the Reliquary or something else good.
I like that idea a lot. 2 life for the off-color cost is peanuts in the long run. If you can remove an enemy's legend OR duplicate exemplat/kotr all within 1 card, why not add it in?
The only problem this creates is a reliance on the 3cc spot. Metamorph, Kotr, Paladin, Exemplar, Crusader. There are also concerns about how to finish off the opponent.
I like finarfin28's list. I would alter it to include KOTR, some utility lands, and the Paladin
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I think he is better in other decks than in Legacy Knights. I could see Bant using Silverblade Paladin more effectively on their exalted/flying creatures - although they probably won't use him either.:rolleyes:
It's soooo bad. If one of the bond creatures dies, you've got a 2/2 for 3 mana. Even if double strike remained on the creatures, why play it over Mirran Crusader, which is actually a double striker for 3 that has Tarmo/KotR protection? Also, Kinsbaile Cavalier gives double strike to ALL you knights, and it doesn't see much play anyway.
The only good thing I see on Silverblade Paladin is the ability to do evil things when cheated into play with Vial. But that's just for fun.
Besides that, I usually have problems keeping my creatures alive with so many removals flying around. We are better off with protection or lifelink abilities Knights.
Yeah, Tribal Knights is a fun deck. And against any deck running damage-based/destroy-based removals, Knight Exemplar screws them really hard.
Silverblade Paladin might have a chance if it was 2-drop. But it isn't. I can see where you are coming from, as he does helps to maintain a solid clock - unfortunately I find him too susceptible to removal/situational, and there are better 3-drop knights as mentioned above.
I like that idea a lot. 2 life for the off-color cost is peanuts in the long run. If you can remove an enemy's legend OR duplicate exemplat/kotr all within 1 card, why not add it in?
The only problem this creates is a reliance on the 3cc spot. Metamorph, Kotr, Paladin, Exemplar, Crusader. There are also concerns about how to finish off the opponent.
I like finarfin28's list. I would alter it to include KOTR, some utility lands, and the Paladin
Phyrexian Metamorph is so good it can even copy your own equipments or opponent's Jitte. Sometimes I even move Vial to four counters so it can remove opposing Legends (especially those that have haste).
The deck needs more lands for sure. First thing I'll look at is probably some better lands to improve the mana mix(so you can have easier access to WW and BB respectively), and unfortunately, good lands never come cheap. Anyway, I'm not sure what is your definition of budget, but as a start, it'll be good to get some Marsh Flats, Isolated Chapel and a single Godless Shrine.
You could try to increase the land count by 2, taking out 1x Nameless Inversion and 1x Mortify (why play Mortify? if you are worried about enchantment, how about artifacts?) There is more than enough removals in the deck and Nameless Inversion can be tutored by Entomb.
If budget permits, you could go for 4x Marsh Flats and 1x Godless Shrine first. This will improve your mana mix tremendously and give you a consistent base to setup your Haakon and Knight Exemplar shenanigans.
Mother of Runes is not a knight, but she is so good (yet affordable both in casting cost and monetary terms ;)) I'll get a playset of her. She can take the place of 2x Student of warfare, 1x Knight of Holy Nimbus and 1x Knight Exemplar. When she is active, she can be the most irritating creature ever. Plus she can protect your Haakon and Knight Exemplar when they comes into play. She can also stop exile spells which is what Haakon and Knight Exemplar is most concerned about.
Any idea what kind of budget are you looking at and what are the cards you have already obtained thus far?
I guess you are probably right, 2-headed giant games in legacy format is going to be totally different from 1v1 competitive legacy games. The tempo is completely different judging from your descriptions of the gameplay and how the cards work. Imagine trying to play round Daze and Mana Leak with those high CMC spells or opponent using a 1cc or 2cc removal on your 4cc-6cc spells - that is if you ever reach that amount of mana before it's too late to turn the game around.
You are definitely right on the competitiveness of your deck in 1v1 though, I'm pretty sure the CMC/average drop and lack of consistency will hurt against opposing decks.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Looks like a solid deck that has all the essentials. 20 land should be fine, as your curve tops out at 3, and you have KotWO/Vial (as you mentioned). I could see people suggesting to fit in some equipment in there (Either Stoneforge Mystic package or just a few swords) or Elspeth, perhaps instead of Knight of the Holy Nimbus, but I think you're fine either way.
NINJA EDIT: As far as other lands go, you probably don't need to include nonbasics (with most people running Wastelands out there), but Flagstones of Trokair or Emeria, the Sky Ruin might be ok. The latter will get hit by Wasteland all the time, but it's worth a shot.
As AEIOUsometimesY has pointed out, the essentials are already there. And this is a sturdy deck list which should be able to compete against competitive control or aggro decks.
This is also a very honest aggro deck without much combat tricks (besides Mother of Runes) - but the protection from Mother and Mirran Crusader could mess up opponents all day long. The deck has a lack of card advantage but that is prevalent with most mono-W or heavy W decks so just saying.
That said, this deck could well give the Legacy Goblins or Merfolks a run for their reputation (as Tier one Tribes). Adding in Stoneforge with SoFI will turn the tide in your favor easily.
Personally, I may cut out
- 1x Mirran Crusader
- 1x Knight of Holy Nimbus
- 1x Knight of Meadowgrain
for
+ 3x Sliver Knight as there are quite a number of Burn and Goblins deck in my meta.
Hope you can share with us some of your matchups when you get around playing with it. I'm quite keen to know how your knights list works out.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
No problem! How is your playtesting with Pure Knights going along?
The card advantage is limited and direct CA could only come from Stoneforge Mystic, while indirect CA can come from Horizon Canopy, equipment Swords, Knight of the White Orchid. Knight of the Reliquary does good deck thinning, and Elspeth, Knight-Errant can be considered indirect CA depending on how you look at it.
Silver knight is a personal choice. I could swap them with Knight of the White Orchid when my playgroup has 4-5 Goblins deck (GR, BR & R). All the merfolk players seems to have quitted.
Some Matchups update:
Yesterday I played against my mate's home-brewed UWB Snapcaster deck (looks like a variant of Team America but with a W splash) with key components such as:
4x Thoughtseize,
4x Hymn to Tourach,
Some Jace, the Mind Sculptor,
Some Daze and Spell Snare
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Swords to Plowshares
Some Stoneforge Mystic
Sword of Feast and Famine & Batterskull
Land bases via Fetches, Underground Sea, Scrubland and Tundras.
That's what I could recall from his deck, which is almost everything I guess :rolleyes:.
Before the game I had an idea (it's not difficult to guess what are the spells - the usual suspects again) what I was up against, while my mate knows my deck inside-out since he has seen and played against it for the longest time. I thought it would be an average matchup but surprisingly, I managed to win all 4 games pretty comfortably, with average draws for both of us (no god hands here). I also expected him to mana-screw but he didnt, managing to cast his Jace and Hymns pretty easily.
I even had a game which he managed to cast 4 Snapcaster mage and in the process Swords to Plowshares me 6 times and Thoughtseize me twice. One of the Thoughseize was used on my Stoneforge after JTMS bounced it. Eventually I managed to overcome him because I had a Sword of Fire and Ice in play, and managed to equip a creature which he ran out of removals for. JTMS couldnt bounce the creature so it was a foregone conclusion.
It's nice to know Legacy Knights still has a decent matchup against control, although against Combo it's still an auto-loss.
Anyway below is the deck I was running against him, eventually it was the combined threats from Aether Vial, Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Package, Student of Warfare(with it's early beatdown) the key in this matchup:
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Student of Warfare
Planeswalkers [2]
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Artifacts [7]
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
Lands [20]
2 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Marsh Flats
6 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Orim's Chant
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tormod's Crypt
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
This is the deck at the moment:
4x Student of Warfare
2x Kinsbaile Knight
4x Knight of Meadowgrain
2x Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
4x Mother of Runes
2x Mirran Crusader
1x Paladin en-Vec
1x Stillmoon Cavalier
2x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Honra do Puro
2x Mask of Memory
4x Sword to Plowshare / 4x Path to Exile
2x Nameless Inversion
I didn't build the side yet.
I would like you give me opinions about the deck and what should I change, maybe I could put some discards or something like that?
So, that's it! Hope that you can help me!
Thank you and bye!
Rodrigo Reis
Great you had fun with Knights. What I liked about the knights is their first striking ability which kills merfolks and goblins easily. Even a pumped up 3/2 Silvergill Adept or a 5/2 Goblin Piledriver could barely make a dent on the knight's armor.
Merfolks and Goblins are good matchups for Knights. Against Knights, if both decks fail to start off with a Aether Vial, knights will usually romp to victory. I have 4 goblins deck in my playgroup, 2 of them Tier one, and I usually win around 80% of the games. The same goes with Merfolks, which is an even easier matchup. Whenever a Sword lands or they run out of gas it is usually good game. At least Goblins has Tin Street Hooligan to destroy our swords and Goblin Ringleader for gas, Merfolks main route to victory is usually overwhelming lords or a flying Coralhelm Commander. I usally aim my limited removal spells on Commander.
Welcome to Legacy Knights and MTGS!!!
Interesting that you are using Mask of Memory as one of your discard source which could also act as a potential CA when you discard a knight creature. Pretty creative I must say ;). The main problem I foresee is the lack of evasion in knights. That said, the equipment might work because you have Mother of Runes, Mirran Crusader, Paladin en-Vec & Stillmoon Cavalier and their protection from various colors may give your knight the opportunity to deal combat damage.
Aether Vial is quite important to the deck, as it provides Haakon, Stromgald Scourge with an additional way to enter the battlefield. But since you don't have Vial, I'll focus on having more ways to dump him into the graveyard.
Raven's Crime could be suitable here. It can be used on your opponent in the first few turns, and you could Retrace it when you eventually draw into Haakon. You can also catch your opponent unaware with a sudden discard just when he least expected it (trust me, cards like this can be easily forgotten as the game goes on).
Cabal Therapy is a more demanding card from a skill perspective, allowing us a peep at the opponent's hand. You could also blindly call for a Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile to pave the way for the knights lord - Knight Exemplar & Haakon to come down later. Cabal Therapy is chosen over other discard spells because it's flashback ability allows us to dump Haakon later.
I saw that you have 42 non-land cards and no lands. That I can understand. The land base can only be determined once we finalised on the card choices. With Haakon being such a mana intensive strategy (you don't want to finally get Haakon & good knights into the graveyard only to end up with not enough lands to cast them!) We need at least 22 lands. My BW Knights list has Dark Confidant to help dig for lands. I think Confidant might be expensive but since you already have Mother of Runes I wouldnt want to play too many non-knight creatures.
We could easily take out 2x Kinsbaile Knight, 4x Honor of the Pure for starters.
As you mentioned, if some of these cards are very expensive in Brazil. I'm concerned if you are able to attain the necessary lands. We definitely need to play the likes of Godless Shrine, Marsh Flats and Scrubland because of the WW in most knights and the BB required for Haakon. The deck cannot operate efficiently without a stable mana base and the lack of Aether Vial further exacerbate the situation.
Alternatively, you could run Isolated Chapel as a more budget option. I'm keen to help you on your BW Haakon deck "project", but would like to know how competitive your meta is.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Well, the prices are the biggest problem, I'll give you an exemple. I saw the highest price of the Scrubland on magiccards.info, it's $80.00, here in Brazil, the average price is R$170.00. I don't know to you, but to me it's very expensive...
About the cards that you suggested, I thought about using Raven's Crime, but I didn't know if it was a good idea, so you told about Cabal Therapy, and the effect would be similar to Raven's Crime in my deck, but I think Raven's Crime would be better, because the opponent would definately discard a card and it's cheaper.
Now about Dark Confidant, I THINK that Mask of Memory would do his job (but not as efficiently)... what's your opinion?
About Honor of The Pure, I was insecure of using it, so, how you suggested, I'll use Raven's Crime in it's place. But I didn't get why taking Kinsbaile Cavalier out, can you explain me your opinion? I don't know in the BW deck, but in my W It works very well.
About the lands, I didn't researched about it yet, I'll let it for the future (actually, after defining my nonlands cards and sidedeck), but yes, the lands are expensive too, but there's no another way, I'll have to save money.
And your last question, the deck is more for fun than to competitive, but I have plans to use it in competitive too...
I think that's it, thank you again, you're helping me a lot!
Rodrigo Reis
Thanks! It's nice to know there are people reading and finding the thread useful. That's what I set out for when I wrote the primer. And I appreciate your feedback very much :).
Expensive is a relative term, and yes, that to me it is also expensive. I play EDH too, and I don't mind splashing USD80 for a card, but when I need to spend USD320 for a playset I think long and hard over it. I got most of my duals when the prices were depressed last year and also won some of them around the same time in my LGS tournaments with Legacy Knights (knights thrived in my control-dominated meta back then).
It's your call. I prefer Cabal Therapy - although I hated calling the wrong card - happens most of the time :embarrass:. But Raven's Crime is a not too shabby replacement and it's easier to play with - and cheaper.
I felt Mask of Memory is worth a shot. This equipment when combined with Mother of Runes might be able to send your knights through for combat damage. It's also good against deck with few creatures since they will have less blockers around. That said, I usually do not activate Mother's ability unless in response to removals. You will need to know how to play around the equipment and Mother's ability effectively to be able to exploit the equipment to the max. At best, you have a knight with the appropriate protection to equip with. At worse, you could always enlist mommy's help.
Since part of the deck strategy is to recycle knights via Haakon, it's not advisable to have a 4cc knight around. Firstly, it increase the mana curve of the deck, secondly it's very clumsy to cast from the graveyard. There is also tempo problems here, as you can imagine this scenario:
The Haakon strategy also tend to let us play multiple spells a turn (both from hand & graveyard) and a 4cc card may cost us tempo. I struggled to recast 3cc Knights even. I usually end up recasting the 1cc & 2cc knights mostly when Haakon is active.
I think at the very least, you'll need 4x Marsh Flats and maybe 1 or 2 Scrubland or Godless Shrine. That will ensure the deck can function properly. Any improvement on the manabase will definitely add to the deck consistency and power level so it's up to you eventually. You can always playtest with the essentials first and see how you wanna advance from there.
I think you probably have a good idea on how to approach the deck, have fun with Legacy Knights!
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Rodrigo Reis
Sure, could you come out with a list of the better knight creatures you have and some of the cards which you intend to buy? I have an idea of the decklist you can go for, but would prefer to suggest a list which is already close to what you currently have (you mentioned earlier you were initally building a mono-knights so I guess you are somewhere there), which we could improve and enhance from there. I think it is more productive this way ;).
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
3x Knight Exemplar
4x Student of Warfare
3x Knight of the Holy Nimbus
2x Benalish Cavalry
4x Leonin Skyhunter
2x Kinsbaile Cavalier
4x Knight of Meadowgrain
2x White Knight
3x Accorder Paladin
4x Youthful Knight
1x Armored Ascension
1x Honor of the Pure
4x Journey to Nowhere
22x Plains
Well, as you can se, it's a newbie deck, hahahahaha! That's because it's my first deck, and I'm new on Magic... Most of my cards were a gift from a friend.
I think that's what you asked, so, THANK YOU A LOT again, and bye!
Another fast question, do you think it's better that I continue building my mono white deck, or It would be better to build a Black and White one?
Haha, that's nice of your friend, anyway you gotta start somewhere, and as a start, this is actually a decent aggro deck to begin with. Simple but effective with a good mana curve and the right mix of creatures. Honor of the Pure is actually good in this deck.
I don't know how to answer your question on which to build (It really depends on what are the next few cards you are going to buy), looking at what you have currently, my suggestions on a BW Knights list (based on your preliminary list and some additional new cards) will be something like this:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Student of Warfare
2 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
2 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Paladin en-Vec
1 Stillmoon Cavalier
3 Mask of Memory
Spells [12]
2 Buried Alive
2 Nameless Inversion
4 Raven's Crime
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Marsh Flats
2 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
10 Plains
2 Swamp
So if you decide to stick to mono color you would save on Marsh Flats, Godless Shrine and Isolated Chapel. Compared to your current list, the BW list is a mid-game deck so it’s unlikely to win quickly like what your existing W knights list could, but it will be more resilient against board wipe, and to me, playing 2 colors is always more enjoyable than a mono color deck.
Hope this helps!!
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Yes, that will be my deck
I'll start buying the white cards, then I'll buy the black ones and the lands.
Now I'll build my sideboard, do you thing the onde that you posted on the tutorial, Black & White Legacy Knights, Haakon's Confidant, would be good to my deck?
I was thinking of using Leonin Relic-Warder and some knights with protection on the sideboard. What do you think?
Thank you again!
Rodrigo
Yeah, I did the same too. I brought all the white cards, then went on to buy cards from other colors when I started splashing different colors for different versions of knights.
The deck was last played in around May-July 2011, therefore the sideboard was actually suited to that meta. If I don't recall wrongly, Mental Mistep was still rampant, and Snapcaster Mage was certainly not around (thus I wasn't seeing the likes of 8x Swords to Plowshares pre-board and 6x Plowshares & 6x Path to Exile post-board compared to now :rolleyes:)
2 Retribution of the Meek
4 Extirpate
1 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
4 Orim's Chant
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vindicate
Retribution of the Meek is no longer relevant in my opinion, more targeted removal or wrath effects should be fine. I'll go for a Wrath of God since we don't need regeneration and there is Haakon, Stromgald Scourge and Knight Exemplar to play around or recover from Wraths.
Leonin Relic-Warder was good if you had Aether Vial, as I could surprised my opponent and also have an additional body to beat with. Opponents usually don't have enough removals since they still need to deal with Dark Confidant, Knight Exemplar or Haakon, Stromgald Scourge. I used it to good effect against Counterbalance, other Vials or pesky artifacts/enchantments.
For your deck:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Wrath of God
3 Disenchant
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Vindicate
You could have 3 Disenchant for artifact/enchantments and 2 Vindicate (Oblivion Ring a cheaper alternative) in your sideboard as utility. As usual, the graveyard hate and perhaps some protection spells for knights(rather than Knight creatures with protection). These protection spells could be Faith's Shield - it can protect Haakon as well.
I have a sideboard below for you (with no knowlege of your meta), please take note there is no protection against combo at all.
Against Storm, Leyline of Sanctity to stop Tendrils of Agony? Or Wrath of God to wipe all the goblins from Empty the Warrens?
Surgical Extraction or Extirpate if you are worried about Reanimator decks.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Student of Warfare
Planeswalkers [2]
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Artifacts [7]
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
Lands [20]
2 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Marsh Flats
6 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Orim's Chant
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tormod's Crypt
Matchups update:
UWB Snapcaster Control
Mono R Goblins W-L @ 90%-10% (20+ games)
BR Goblins W-L @ 80%-20% (Several games)
GR Goblins W-L @ 80%-20% (20+ games)
Team America W-L @ 40%-60% (few games)
UW Stoneblade W-L @ 60%-40% (few games)
Bant @ 70%-30% (few games)
GW W-L @ 40%-60% (several games)
Mono W Death and Taxes W-L @ 65%-35% (10+ games)
Dredge @ 10-90% (few games)
Storm @ 0-100% (few games)
The decklist below was what I attempted last year with UW, however due to the increase in targeted removals and Mother of Runes emergence as a key W creature, I can't see any reason not to run her. As such, I have a headache - there's not enough Knight creatures to justify playing Knight Exemplar or even calling the deck Knights Tribal!
This is the first ever knight list which I didn't play any Student of Warfare. I reckon since we already have 12 one-drops, and they are always going to be played before student, I should play 2 or 3 drops knights such as Knight of Meadowgrain for lifelink and Mirran Crusader for quick beatdown. We probably won't have mana to pump Student since we have to keep mana for Remand, instant spells or equipping.
OLD!!! Blue & White Legacy Knights, Vial Knights March 2011
3 Court Hussar
4 Knight Exemplar
2 Silver Knight
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Student of Warfare
2 White Knight
Spells [22]
4 AEther Vial
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Remand
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
6 Plains
4 Tundra
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Orim's Chant
4 Retribution of the Meek
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
NEW!!! Blue & White Legacy Knights, Vial Knights March 2012
3 Court Hussar
4 Knight Exemplar
2 Knight of Meadowgrain
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
Spells [22]
4 AEther Vial
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Remand
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
6 Plains
4 Tundra
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Orim's Chant
4 Tormod's Crypt
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Glad to know you enjoyed the thread ;), but sorry to hear about your troubles and problems with your matchups....
The deck is not too bad? Opening turn Mother of Runes messes up a lot of deck strategies, Aether Vial with Stoneforge Msytic can play around control, while Knight Exemplar trumps a fair number of aggro decks.
Could you tell us the type of decks your friends are playing currently? Are they playing Dredge? Or are they casting Moat on turn 4? Or even playing Counterbalance strategies or Ensnaring Bridge and you have no artifacts/enchantment removals.
I played against Land Destruction and my opponent couldn't handle Aether Vial (if he sideboarded in Crush then we probably had no chance), but if he could destroy your land, vial and creatures at the same time I think you probably had a bad draw...:embarrass:.
Infect gives us a hard time, I know them. They could just send a random flying creature such as Plague Stinger and Flesh-Eater Imp with a few pump spells over and we'll be dead before we even know it. Not drawing Swords to Plowshares means almost means auto loss. Heck, even the Necropede can stops our equipment Swords for a turn. Unfortunately I don't have a good solution to infect other than playing more removal spells (which I'm not prepared to tit the balance of the deck). You might want to consider including 4x Leonin Skyhunter to replace some Knight of Meadowgrain and Mirran Crusader if you really need knights with flying.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
It almost feels like every single removal in legacy is either an edict or an exile effect.
Maybe focusing on the swords + creatures with protection from colors is a better 3 drop strategy? T2 stoneforge, T3 Mirran, T4 Sword swing would be the idea.
I know Mirran crusader + Sword of war and peace is basically instant win. I'd imagine Stillmoon Cavalier + Sword of Fire and Ice is probably brutal too.
Exemplar is probably the reason you wanted to make the deck, but there are a lot of great 3 drops out there. KOTR/Mirran are two of the best of any, and they just so happen to be a knights; yet Exemplar limits them.
(Side-note: Would Knights actually be an awesome Modern deck, a format where Path is the best removal and the interaction with Knight of the White Orchid would be worthwhile?)
Anywho, I think indestructibility is still valuable due to combat, despite all of the exiling removal. Having 4 Exemplars and 3-4 Metamorphs seems key, in order to spread the indestructibility around to the lords. And when you've got 2 or more lords in play, Metamorph can become an extra Knight of the Reliquary or something else good.
I think something that might push this deck over the edge would be if Waylay were un-errata'd, which I stumbled across while searching for cards that interact with Knights. White Lightning!
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
It's all down to the matchups. Although indestructibility is not relevant all the time, in most cases, the presence of Knight Exemplar does forces the opponent to expend their Exile spells on him thus leaving other important knights alone. Indestructibility as a strategy thumps other aggro strategies easily. Luckily most of the exile spells are with W. I'm usually relieved if I don't see W as one of my opponent's colors.
No doubt the protection strategies are very useful, Stillmoon Cavalier and Mirran Crusader have very relevant protection colors and with equipments they will be downright nasty, but the problem is this type of play is usually too clunky and vulnerable to disruption(and there are plenty in competitive legacy). I felt it was better not to focus the whole deck towards this but to go on a general direction of aggro and to equip as and when appropriate.
And you are correct. Knight Exemplar is the reason the deck exist, or even the creation of this thread. She was a better creature previously...unfortunately there are newly created removals like Dismember, Tragic Slip which makes indestructibility less powerful...
There is only one knight lord at the moment - Knight Exemplar, which is measly when compared to other tribes such as Merfolks, Elves or Goblins who has tons of lords. That said, individually, the knights are stronger on their own(from a combat perspective), and have protection from colors to mess up other deck strategies. Knights is also quite fortunate to share the same color with Stoneforge Mystic, thus allowing us to utilise her and the equipment swords easily. 2x protection colors from equipment Sword + knights' own protection is a protection from 3 colors.
Merfolk plays Phantasmal Image and Kira, Great Glass-Spinner as well, when a creature is good, it'll be played regardless of it's creature type. I also understand your point about playing tribal should be be dependent on what their lords bring, and the option to play more lords makes the tribe stronger obviously. Let's hope wizards will print more knight lords in future.
Here is my other thread on Modern Tribal Knights:
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
Modern Knights generate more interest than Legacy Knights, maybe because the meta has not settled and people are still willing to try new decks and concepts - unlike in Legacy whereby the main focus is on small modifying or alterations of existing top-tier strategies.
Path to Exile and it's the interaction with Knight of the White Orchid is useful, but that is about it. It just negate the drawback of giving opponent an additional land. This interaction does not happen often, but it's always nice to have some synergy available ;).
Indestructibility is relevant to combat, especially when it goes down to a war of attrition, which Knights will usually win, since we have first strike to chump block, we can usually delay long enough to drop a Knight Exemplar or 2, the equipment Swords and Phyrexian Metamorph also increase our chances of pulling ahead. Indestructibility also stops many "destroy creature/dealt damage" effects or spells, so it does stops some deck strategies as well.
Waylay is one sweet card which is very favourful, expecially with knights. I wouldnt mind more instant knights spells in future :rolleyes:.
Depending on your players in your playgroup or LGS, for me I tend to see plenty of very competitive decks such as Bant, UB Stoneblade/ UW Stoneblade, Team America, Delver Control, Mono-U control, Goblins, Counterbalance, Zoo, GW Maverick, Punishing Maverick etc in my area, so my decktesting are mostly against these types of decks.
Unfortunately your opponent was playing Pillage as well, so Vial didn't manage to give you an advantage. I don't know, you were playing the mono-W version without any non-basics, so you were at least immune to his wasteland. Besides, the decks which I described above in my meta should beat land-D easily thus I'm not worried about facing and losing to Land-D - it's not a viable strategy in my meta so to speak. Infect, I just write off as a tough matchup which I usually lose to, therefore sorry can't help much here :embarrass:.
If enchantment/artifacts is a problem, you could try running a few Leonin Relic-Warder in the mainboard. It can be vialed into play(which evades counterspell) to exile those pesky items. I actually run at least 3 copies when I go mono-W.
The deck should also have a fair chance against control, we have a better game against UB control then UW. I have played many games against control and our chances can actually be put at 50%-50%. Control is much harder to pilot than our Aggro, so against a less-experienced player we could even go 60%-40% in our favor.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Silverblade-Paladin-Avacyn-Restored-Spoiler1-216x302.jpg
I might build this deck just as a fun list. Some information comes to mind.
Silverblade Paladin (link:http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/96/669/635032497112520100.jpg) looks like an auto-include. It gives itself and a buddy doublestrike. That's a VERY big deal in terms of keeping up a solid clock. It's also a knight + non-legendary.
I like that idea a lot. 2 life for the off-color cost is peanuts in the long run. If you can remove an enemy's legend OR duplicate exemplat/kotr all within 1 card, why not add it in?
The only problem this creates is a reliance on the 3cc spot. Metamorph, Kotr, Paladin, Exemplar, Crusader. There are also concerns about how to finish off the opponent.
I like finarfin28's list. I would alter it to include KOTR, some utility lands, and the Paladin
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I think he is better in other decks than in Legacy Knights. I could see Bant using Silverblade Paladin more effectively on their exalted/flying creatures - although they probably won't use him either.:rolleyes:
I tend to agree with most of what you say here,
Sliverblade Paladin's Soulbind gives it the opportunity to pull off some combat tricks, but a 2/2 doublestriker also can't take out the likes of Scavenging Ooze, Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary or stop attacking fllyers.
Besides that, I usually have problems keeping my creatures alive with so many removals flying around. We are better off with protection or lifelink abilities Knights.
+1
Mirran Crusader, Knight of the Reliquary and Knight Exemplar over this 3-drop anytime.
Yeah, Tribal Knights is a fun deck. And against any deck running damage-based/destroy-based removals, Knight Exemplar screws them really hard.
Silverblade Paladin might have a chance if it was 2-drop. But it isn't. I can see where you are coming from, as he does helps to maintain a solid clock - unfortunately I find him too susceptible to removal/situational, and there are better 3-drop knights as mentioned above.
Phyrexian Metamorph is so good it can even copy your own equipments or opponent's Jitte. Sometimes I even move Vial to four counters so it can remove opposing Legends (especially those that have haste).
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
8 Swamp
12 Plains
Creatures: 21
4 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
2 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Student of Warfare
1 Stillmoon Cavalier
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
3 Nameless Inversion
4 Entomb
4 Mortify
Vial and Entomb are kind of pricey...
The deck needs more lands for sure. First thing I'll look at is probably some better lands to improve the mana mix(so you can have easier access to WW and BB respectively), and unfortunately, good lands never come cheap. Anyway, I'm not sure what is your definition of budget, but as a start, it'll be good to get some Marsh Flats, Isolated Chapel and a single Godless Shrine.
You could try to increase the land count by 2, taking out 1x Nameless Inversion and 1x Mortify (why play Mortify? if you are worried about enchantment, how about artifacts?) There is more than enough removals in the deck and Nameless Inversion can be tutored by Entomb.
If budget permits, you could go for 4x Marsh Flats and 1x Godless Shrine first. This will improve your mana mix tremendously and give you a consistent base to setup your Haakon and Knight Exemplar shenanigans.
Mother of Runes is not a knight, but she is so good (yet affordable both in casting cost and monetary terms ;)) I'll get a playset of her. She can take the place of 2x Student of warfare, 1x Knight of Holy Nimbus and 1x Knight Exemplar. When she is active, she can be the most irritating creature ever. Plus she can protect your Haakon and Knight Exemplar when they comes into play. She can also stop exile spells which is what Haakon and Knight Exemplar is most concerned about.
Any idea what kind of budget are you looking at and what are the cards you have already obtained thus far?
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W