Your relationship IRL is almost irrelevant here. It's still possible to be open to the possibility of a friend being scum.
Oh, I'm completely open to the possibility and if I decide that I think she's scum, I'll ride her all the way to the noose.
But I do not think she is scum, and it is not because we are friends. It's because I've seen her town play and her scum play, and this is her town play.
...Seriously? Remind me where I demanded her reasoning for the vote, rather than question the logic behind and pointing out the potential risk of posting that way?
If you think I'm scum, or are at least getting more scum vibes from me than anyone else and want others' opinions, please elaborate instead of delaying
what could be meaningful discussion.
Also, have you just glossed over the multiple times where I've said why I didn't think an explanation later would be ok?
You explained why it wouldn't be okay, yes, and I agree with you. If everyone in the thread suddenly started stating reasons why KCC would vote for you, then it's possible that she could steal one, but I think the only valid suggestion was that it was a joke vote (which was refuted by KCC), so its a moot point, as long as no one jumps to her defense.
Also confused as to how people are fine with the 'voting with no explanation is how KCC plays day 1', but not 'overexplaining is how Chickenfish plays'. I'm not going to shorten my explanations/defenses, because that how I feel I need to express myself. It's that simple.
Once again, if you have an issue with the actual things I've said, rather than how I've said them, let me know!
I have no experience with KCC in any mafia game before this, so I have no idea if that's how she plays consistently.
Also, I never said overexplaining was why I thought you were scummy. It struck me as weird that you reacted so strongly to her vote, but still think she is town.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You don't care if people begin to suspect you're scum. If your motivation is truly creating discussion for information, why would you not care if it became clouded by people thinking you're scum?
It's the mafia's job to worry about appearances -they need to blend in, make sure their excuses sound believable, and that their actions look reasonable. As town, you don't need to worry about any of that. You can just naturally go about your business, creating discussion, looking for info, and hunting scum. -And while you shouldn't ever go out of your way to draw negative attention, it's not really a big deal if you do come under some suspicion, because you can respond honestly, confident in the knowledge that your actions have legitimate explanations.
Also, people expressing suspicion of me isn't even clouding discussion. In fact, there is useful analysis to be made there. Who are the townies expressing real suspicions, and who are the scum faking it?
While this is true in general, in the specific case of fence-sitting and/or lurking I disagree. If he is a truly indecisive player and/or scum, it's much better to encourage posting so that we can actually get a tell rather than what is potentially the null tell of a new player not wanting to commit to something and thus looking like scum.
-And if you view that as a null tell, I agree. However, he specifically said he thought it would be a scum tell in this case, and therefore he shouldn't be giving out warnings before the tell can be made.
Also, a lot of discussion has been created surrounding it, and now people appear to be starting to move onto other things - with KCC having posted since, you'd think that it would be a good time for her to explicitly express concern in case the town forget about who she thinks is giving of scumtells.
I'm fine with people going elsewhere. I just wanted to kick start discussion and get some more out of you, not have you be the center of attention all game. -You're not even my top suspect at this point. -But I'll explain my initial vote on you now, so you can respond.
I'm... concerned that you ask that question after quoting that bit of my post...
That aside - my vote was neither random nor serious. As the second person in the game to post, I had 3 options:
1) I could put a random joke vote on somebody for the sake of discussion, but you'd already done that.
2) I could write a post without a vote, but as the second poster in the game if it wasn't in response to yours (which as a joke vote is hard to respond to) it would have little impact on the game, so why post at all?
3) Vote for a player who's already posted. With my options limited, it had to be you Manders.
Huge over-thinking/over-explanation of a random vote. Could be personality, could be nervousness, could be both. Nervousness could point to scum, or just being new. Point #1 here makes me believe he isn't familiar with how the RVS works, so this doesn't point heavily towards alignment.
I went with 3 because it actually had the potential to create discussion. And, based on the fact that I'm writing this post, and:
(not to much of a stretch to interpret this as me - posted a few times then went away while you guys kept chatting), it worked!
Not so great that I've given off a scum tell, however, as the sort of discussion I intended to start wasn't giving scum a potential scapegoat (me) to hide behind...
If you haven't picked up on it yet, the vote wasn't serious... however, I'll leave it where it is for now (see below).
I don't like the bolded. He could just be misusing the phrase, and not know how to word that idea better yet, but it could be a slip. Also not liking the "this was a plan, and it worked!" bit. -However, if he did overthink the random vote, this is a possible motivation for that, and his heart would be in the right place.
Gamora, while I agree that out of context it could be taken like that, I really only read it as a continuation of the conversation.A vote based on that seems a bit strong to me, but I suppose this far from lynch there's not much difference between a vote and a FoS...
However, the conversation itself is doing very little in terms of scumhunting, or even getting us on the right track. There's not much content in the large number of posts from Manders and Arnnaria. They're talking about personalities outside the game, rather than doing anything to develop the current game (this talk of personalities could all just be fake-reputation building, and even if it's not, if people are bringing their actual personalities to the table they will be evident to us anyway).
Furthermore, as Eron pointed out, the only response he got to an actual mention of the game was a "..." from Manders, while she goes on to answer Arnnaria with some vaguely game-related chitchat, not actual development of discussion.
As such, my initial joke-vote actually has a reason to stay on its recipient, so I'll leave it where it is. FoS: Arnnaria for good measure too. Is it necessary to bold + blue our FoSing, or is this in fact just going to be detrimental to your ability to skim and tally?
tl;dr - initially voted to generate discussion, since then MandersHex's contentless posts have made me decide to leave the vote where it is.
The bolded here is the main reason for my vote. First, there's a defense of Arn, saying it read naturally. But then he turns around and FOS's Arn, which he said was barely different from a vote at that stage.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Leaning Scum: Arnnaria - Post #168 - Also, I don't like his reasoning for having Chickenfish and Gamora on his town list. Gamora - Post #168 - Almost a FoS for Gamora since his being on my leaning scum list are based on his interactions with Arnnaria. Also how people had different ideas of the term bandwagon. Chickenfish - Post #119 - Way too defensive.
FoS: Eron - Has both good and bad posts. Not sure what my read on him is quite yet. Battlemaster - Most of his posts are in response to other posts and don't seem to have much strong opinion or reasons, seems too hung up on KCC and only has one reason for targeting her.
Neutural: Wheat_Grinder - Gone til Tuesday, not enough posts. Miracule - Neutral by way of not enough posts. I like how he jumps right in and posts a list of his own for his first 'real' post. Gigas1 - Don't see anything scummy in his post, like his reasoning, but neutral because of a lack of posting. KCC - Besides her last post (#205) and when she voted Chickenfish, the only thing she has done is explain why she was going to wait before giving her reasons.
Leaning Town: Foxlet - Good posts, but few. Like the reasons behind her suspicion list. Manders - Actively participating in discussions, can't find anything scummy.
You'd be wrong. And I didn't "force your hand", I asked for your reads because I haven't seen you do much in the way of scumhunting. The list you provided showed terrible reads, which, again, I will elaborate on when I'm at a computer, and 8 people as neutral. That = a terrible list, and enough for me to apply pressure.
Not many people had at this point but you only requested this of Arnnaria. Why not ask everyone/folks that hadn't offered much in the way of opinon at the time?
If you're gonna provide a list, reasons are always nice as the list itself gives no insight into your mindset.QUOTE]
Foxlet also posted no reasons on her list. You coach her, but for Arnnaria it was a lead to follow. Why not have the same opinion for both?
[Quote=MandersHex]You're the only one creating a false dichotomy re: you and KCC.
I can see where Chicken is coming from. I think that the discussion (or lack there of) between them was rather jarring.
Quote from MandersHex »
You're missing something. I just don't know if it's intentional or not.
As in he is missing something from his post or missing something in the game?
Quote from MandersHex »
This is the post that initially pinged my scumdar and prompted me asking for a town/scum list. You give 0 reasons for Chickenfish and Gamora being town, then go on to say KCC is leaning scum, yet you leave yourself an out. And not just any out, like, "I may" or "I might be persuaded."
No. You said, "I'll change my mind about this."
I can get behind this. Initially not knowing what your prompting of Arnnaria for a list was was unsettling. I love that both you justify your reasoning and that it makes sense. You also stated that you would explain later and you did.
Quote from MadersHex »
His reasoning for myself is just naive. I mean, I am town, so he got lucky, but I scumhunt when I'm scum, too. KCC and Gigas can vouch for this.
I'm going to come back to this.
Quote from MandersHex »
And? You keep making these statements, but not saying what they mean.
I only recall something along these lines once. Did I miss something? I think a casual statement about gameplay is ok.
Quote from MandersHex »
It's called actively lurking, and is the number one tell I have on you right now. It is the reason I think you are scum. You have the most post ITT (or second, I can't recall) yet I can't remember crap you've contributed other than self-meta, two lists with terrible reason, and olive branch extending.
I agree with this statement and when it was accompanied by V/LA as pointed out earlier it seems a little convenient. I'll get to Arnnaria specifically later though.
Quote from MandersHex »
You could not be more wrong, duders.
You've gone very in depth with all of your other feedback, however, you have nothing but a cryptic comment for Battlemaster. This is a red flag for me.
Quote from MandersHex »
Originally Posted by EronTheRelentless
I agree with this and so far Manders request for a scum/town list feels like a set up as she has not provided any details of her own as of yet.
Some of this can be explained by phone posting, but a little something would be nice.
Are you satisfied yet?
Yes.
Quote from MandersHex »
Why are you not trusting anyone to make their own decisions?
I do, the whole list thing got blown out of proportion, IMO. I hope I have cleared it up at this point, but if not, I'll consider the damage done and move on.
Quote from MandersHex »
Quote:
Originally Posted by EronTheRelentless
I don't feel that because someone made bad/not enough reads we should be getting the mob together.
Why are you defending Arnnaria so much?
I don't think I have, and I'll be getting to him soon.
Quote from MandersHex »
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxlet
Now for my promised thoughts, such as they are. I should also add, this is my FOS list, everyone else is currently either neutral or leaning town because I can't get a good read, etc. All that is obviously subject to change.
Battlemaster - has been quick to cause disruption, in the name of discussion an example. I find there are better ways to have discussions than finger pointing.
ErontheRelentless - similar to Battlemaster, most of their posts have been pushy and "aggressive", forcing people into defensive mode. While it DOES promote discussion, again, there are better ways of doing it. Unless I've been to tired to notice, I also haven't noticed any opinions of his own at this time.
Kitty and Chicken - Lumping these two together, because I'm on the fence about both of them. I need to go back and read (again) all their posts. There were a few, to me very awkwardly worded sentences that both of them made.....Chicken...it could just be that he was just so wordy, and already on the defensive.....In Kitty's defense, it's harder to say (since they haven't posted as much). Or they could be playing off one another. I don't have enough evidence at either of them at the moment to be comfortable with a lynch or pursuing a bus on them.
I'll be adding more thoughts in a bit!
Thanks!!
Again nothing for Foxlet. No comments, no opinons, just a thanks.
So to summarize MadersHex, I'm on the fence. She clearly goes hard with some people and not with others at this point in the game. The other thing to call out is she specifically says that she scumhunts whether she is Scum or Town. That means that all of this work is almost a null tell for me. I'm leaning town at this point though because she has some extremely valid points.
There is no why anyone you should hold back information about scum tells. All it does it hurt the town. You could better teach new players by showing the where the scum tells you found are. FOS KittyCupCake
Are you allowed to bold FOS?
I agree with this statement personally, but other players seem to believe that this is an acceptable playstyle, so I would like to see how this plays out.
Quote from Battlemaster »
Interesting strategy.
However as we are nearing the end of day one I hope you don't plan on holding information like this in because I don't want to make my decision without all the facts.
Oops. Everyone else has touched on this so I don't feel the need. I do agree with having all the facts. (Hence the list debacle)
Quote from BattleMaster »
We will have to see. If arnarria just banwagons/lurks then then this quote, will be a big scum tell. If not then I agree null tell.
I agree, and at this point this is a lurking situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battlemaster
We will have to see. If arnarria just banwagons/lurks then then this quote, will be a big scum tell. If not then I agree null tell.
Quote from Battlemaster »
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chickenfish
On my read through what had happened since I last looked, this was the other comment that bugged me - didn't even realise it was the same person until I went to make all my notes. Gamora has said that upon reflection, in context it definitely seems like more of a null tell. Your response, however, says that if Arnnaria plays the way he has claimed to usually play in what was a discussion about play styles, then it's a big scum tell. This seems pretty drastic to me.
FoS: Battlemaster
Could you please elaborate on why it's such a big scum tell?
If Arnarria he uses this quote as an excuse later on to sit back later not contribute much to the group or as an excuse to ride the bandwagon/hammer people. It would be a good indication that he was scum. If he does not I don’t really read it as a scum tell.
I hoped my comment would also cause Arnarria to not fence sit the rest of the game.
What is your justification in this? Are you coaching Arnnaria to post?
Quote from Battlemaster »
I don’t understand what you mean by disruption. All I have been been doing is giving my 2 cents into the conversations. Not only is it important to find the scum but make sure we don’t lynch townies. The reason I haven’t been actively going after every player is I haven’t had enough time.
Regarding the bold - When do you anticipate having enough time? This is exactly the same thing that you find to be a scum tell on Arnnaria.
Quote from BattleMaster »
My suspects so far are:
(1) KCC for not having one helpful post the whole game. I know we talked about this earlier but I thought she would have at least given us some clues or something…
(2) Arnnaria
Your reasoning for Arnnaria is the same thing that you said you were doing in your last post. This doesn't jive with me.
To summarize on Battlemaster - after reviewing your posts individually I find them suprisingly lacking in content. There appears to be either active coaching to Arnnaria or you are claiming that the behavior that he has is a scum tell but it isn't a problem when you don't post... Leaning scum.
I`ll admit that I`m having a tough time getting a read from this Chickenfish-KCC conversation. Chickenfish seems a bit over-deffensive but that isn`t neccasarily scummy. I would also have preferred if KCC just came out and said what she thought was scummy about him.
As it is, I`m still fine with keeping my vote on Arnnaria. Even with other people confirming that that`s just how he plays, the way he preemptively brought it up is what rubbed me the wrong way.
What you're saying here is that self-meta is worthless. I disagree. Self-meta is null, but it still worthwhile to give you insight into a player's normal playstyle so that you don't get distracted by things someone does regarless of alignment, like Arnnaria's fence-sitting or KCC's resonless votes. Everyone has something they do regardless of alignment, and it is good to know these things so they can be ignored when re-reading for alignment tells.
And, for the record, KCC has more experience than I do and is a very good player. She recently changed her name from TheFooFish, if you didn't know. I like KittyCupCake SOOOOO much better!!
No real pushback - in fact this is the only comment regarding what you said.
It`s looking like I`m going to have a tough time getting anyone on board with my Arnarria case. I`ll read through once more and see if I can word my argument a little more clearly. I don`t feel like I`ve quite stated it as welll as I could. If it`s still not doing anything for anyone else I might have to just move on.
So one person making a statement is enough for you to drop your case? You took a stance when it seemed pretty convenient - "It was the first scummy thing" - and you dropped it like it was hot.
After giving it another look it does seem like maybe I was over-thinking that post a bit. It does look more like Arnarria was just making a comment about his previous play as opposed to trying to set up a cover for him to lay low.
I`ll Unvotefor now.QUOTE]
Leaving an opportunity to jump right back on it if anyone gets behind it. The "for now" seems like it could have been left off. You either disagree with your original reasoning or you don't.
[Quote=Gamora]Sure thing. After rereading post 65 by Arnarria in the context of the conversation and considering the fact that it had been pointed by other people that fence-sitting isn`t that uncommon for him it started to look like my argument was a little convaluted(I was trying to argue that by mentioning that he has hard time taking a stance he might be just trying to set up a cover to sit back and not take a side on anyone in this game). It became more apparent to me that the simplest answer was that he just made a standard comment about his previous play.
This, by no means, eliminates him as possible scum in my mind but it now comes off more as a null tell.
So you have now justified this because of previous playstyle? You thought it was scummy to begin with. So does that mean behavior is only scummy if people actual end up being scum? How does your opinon change if Arnnaria does end up being scum?
The second part of this quote seems off to me. Your only stated justification for Arnnaria being scum was that he was fence sitting. If you no longer believe this to be a tell, why would it not eliminate him at that time? You never provided any other reasons why he would be. By my count if you eliminate one of one things you're even.
I would also like for you to explain this more. If I`m reading this right it seems like you`re implying that Arnarria and I are attached at the hip now. Like if he`s scum then so am I. It seems like a pretty big leap to make.
I agree with this statement and I don't believe that we have received enough reasoning behind the original quote.
Quote from Gamora »
Wow, again with the fear-mongering. What mob? I`ll have to look to make sure but I don`t think anyone even has more than 2 votes. You make it seem like someone could get lynched any second now. If anything, I think a bandwagon could do us some good. It would at least get people to start stating some serious opinions and taking stances. I really don`t like how you seem to be trying to hinder the conversation.
Honestly, I don't consider what I said "fear-mongering". It's colorful language, and maybe it isn't tailored to your taste but "fear-mongering"? C'mon. It's the same as using "fear-mongering".
Besides myself, how many people have you tried to pin down with stances and opinons? You're standing up free discussion, but you haven't really been doing more than replying to people that question you directly.
The lists are a valid form of discussion but so far I`ve been preferring more direct arguments with people. If I feel it necessary to make a list then I won`t hesitate to make one.
You sure did defend them like they were the best thing since sliced bread at that point in the game. You're all about progress. Until..
Before I go any further I just want to make sure I`m not totally misusing the term "bandwagon". I`m under the impression that a badwagon just refers to a situation where multiple people are expressing suspicion on someone. Isn`t every lynch the result of a bandwagon, regardless of wheather it was a mislynch or not?
The second backpeddle (unprompted) of the game begins.
Conclusion - at this point I see Gamora leaning scum. He takes stands and claims mistakes with little to no pushback when it appears no one is behind him. You have done a lot of talking without giving any firm opinions that you stand behind. Granted you haven't unvoted me, but you have however backed down from 2 positions. And if we don't count this second one as backing down, you certainly have dropped it. I guess because no one put any heat on you.
Yeah, I get backed into a corner because I fence sit in mafia.
It's just that, I need more than a whim to vote for somebody. I need solid evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt.
I've never been on a jury, but it would take a lot of convincing for me to vote guilty on someone.
While I don't agree with this method of play, I don't read this as scum. Arnnaria has actually been more consistent then this post would let on. I know that there aare concerns about his V/LA after making this statement, but real life happens. As long as he is posting when available and I haven't seen "fence sitting" as of yet.
As for fence sitting, I've only played in like two online mafia games. The first one was a moderator-only game. That was my first game online and it is unfortunately locked in the vault and will never be released to the public. I didn't really play well that game so I went on whims. One of those whims was that Manders was scum and I scum hunted her the entire game. When she turned out to be town, I was surprised that my gut instinct had been wrong; but I learned an important lesson: don't trust your gut, rely on evidence.
The second game I was in I was a Serial Killer in Star Trek Specialty. I thoroughly enjoyed the role, but found it very hard to "play Town". I ended up making a false claim that I was a Neutral Survivor and while that worked for a while, I got day-vigged by a vigilante. However it taught me that fence sitting is a really scummy thing to do.
So, if you think it's a scummy thing to do, why announce to everyone that you do it? Now that I'm going back and looking at this I'm not as comfortable with it. I missed this during my first few read throughs.
Chickenfish. Jumped in too fast and got in way over his head.
Manders hex. Been actively scum hunting since RVS.
Gamora. Copped to a mistake, if he were scum he would've pushed harder for a mislynch (and could have been rather successful).
Scum
KCC. Has something she's hiding, but has not revealed it yet. Kinda like a "if you lynch me, my secrets die with me, so put off lynching me for now."
No reads on the rest.
This. This is why I was anti-list. There was no benefit to this at this point in the game. Apparently some players were viewing this as a scum tell. I can't say for sure that if I was asked at that point I could have come up with anything more than this. That is why I was "defending" Arnnaria. To me this felt like a reason to slam a vote on him. I think though at this point if someone were to produce the same thing it would concern me a lot more.
My scum/town list was so upsetting to Manders that she voted for me, citing that she would add extra info later. Without the extra info, and going solely on the list, it seems to me that the thing that must have upset her was listing you as town and KCC as scum.
This feels extremely defensive to me. I think this is a town tell. Not knowing what else to say but feeling like you have to say something.
As far as your next list in #167, Manders gave quite a bit of detail on this. Details that i agree with. I would like to ask since you said "been actively trying to find cracks in the dam, but without scumhunting himself." - what exactly do you define as scum hunting? Does this post suffice? Better yet, what scum hunting have you done up to this point? You have not directly confronted/questioned anyone that I've seen to this point.
Chickenfish posted awhile back on how he thinks KCC isn't scum, but just town trying to do her job. That pretty much convinced me to change her from leaning scum to neutral.
I know you're against this, but I want to see a list from Eron.
I made this list to update further.
Zenjo: I'm beginning to scumhunt now with Eron. It just took me a while to get my read on who I wanted to go after.
Eron and Battlemaster: seem deadset on steering the conversation away from lists and reads, but haven't provided any list or reads themselves.
Edited out a few entries. Can you further elaborate on Zenjo? I'm not catching your meaning. Are you two teaming up?
I'm kinda worried that Eron is 40% there without his explanation to his playstyle.
So... Unvote Eron
Don't get me wrong - I appreciate you unvoting me, but what explanation to my playstyle would help you get to 100%?
In summary for Arnnaria - I'm town on this one. Some confusing entries that I would love clarification on, but he has stepped up his game lately (even though it was against me) and he been asking good questions. I reserve the right to change my mind if his answers are not sufficient.
Here is my gut reaction to the most active posters:
Townie:
Foxlet - Hasn't been overly active but has been contributing his ideas. Hasn't done anything that makes me think he would be anything but town.
KCC - Generated a lot of discussion with the ChickenFish vote and jumpstarted real conversation. Further interactions with ChickenFish may have people splitting them town/scum. While this isn't exactly a positive thing, it isn't a scum tell either.
Scummy:
EronTheRelentless - Doesn't like lists, and brought up 3 times the players that haven't posted. If people are absent or silent, there isn't really much to talk about, and lists are important at every stage of the game, in my opinion anyway. I feel like you were trying to divert attention from conversations that were actually getting people to talk about interesting things.
Gamora - Voted arrnaria and backed down quickly. Didn't offer up any opinion on the KCC/Chickenfish thing. Talks a lot about how helpful discussion is for town, but hasn't contributed much himself.
ChickenFish - A bit overzealous while discussing KCC's vote. Demanded to get her reasoning immediately, even though she said she would later.
Still not sure where I stand with Arnnaria or Manders.
First post with content is a doozy. Definitely has some good reasoning on the scum list. But nothing only one vote with content for town? That seems off to me. Also, what about Gigas and Zenjo? I understand leaving of W_G.
You explained why it wouldn't be okay, yes, and I agree with you. If everyone in the thread suddenly started stating reasons why KCC would vote for you, then it's possible that she could steal one, but I think the only valid suggestion was that it was a joke vote (which was refuted by KCC), so its a moot point, as long as no one jumps to her defense.
I have no experience with KCC in any mafia game before this, so I have no idea if that's how she plays consistently.
Also, I never said overexplaining was why I thought you were scummy. It struck me as weird that you reacted so strongly to her vote, but still think she is town.[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
Limited information so far and can't make a read so I'm still neutral on Miracule.
[QUOTE=Zenjo;/comments/10816794]Ok, I think I found something. Chickenfish puts up an elaborate post defending his joke vote. The thing is, there were quite a few joke votes being thrown around at the same time and they didn't need such an explanation.
Then his response to KCC's waiting to tell why she voted him.
If KCC already said she was going to let some discussion happen about why she voted him, discussion which is good for town, then what is the point in arguing?
Once the KCC gives the reason then you can defend yourself. It's not like your going to get lynched while waiting for KCC to give her reasons.
FoS:Chickenfish
Immediate scum hunting after a read through. Cool.
This is my first game, but if I don't follow the logic of the 'vague reasoning' then I would refuse to be 'swayed'. I do however find it interesting that you include yourself explicitly in that sentence, giving yourself an excuse to 'be swayed'.
I already discussed this post. But here is more questioning and prodding. Zenjo sure didn't waste anytime.
The interactions between Gamora and Arnnaria are starting to scare me.
Gamora - post 91 - It looks as if he is trying to start a wagon to lynch Arnnaria
Arnnaria - post 111 - Uses Gamora's sudden change of heart as a town tell because a scum would have pushed harder for a mislynch
I don't think a scum would've pushed harder at that point because it was
clear that no one agreed with Gamora.
Gamora - post 149 - Reads the post wrong and then is quite defensive about
him being the same alignment as Arnarria
Gamora - post 151 - Says a bandwagon could be a good idea? Isn't a bandwagon people jumping on without good reason except that everyone else is also jumping on?
Arnnaria - post 167 - Again tries to reinforce the idea that Gamora could have been successful in mislynching someone and uses that as a town tell
What concerns me most is that I don't think Gamora could have caused a mislynch if he pushed harder. Which makes Arnnaria's town tell on Gamora pointless.
Possible scum team?
Vote:Gamora
FoS:Arnnaria
I'm also a little bit concerned about Chickenfish. His posts are very long, which could be either a town or scum tell. For now I have him as neutral but I'm watching carefully.[/QUOTE]
I think there is valid reasoning here regarding Arnnaria and Gamora. Regarding the bold (and I know it was yesterday) do you have any additional opinions on CF?
[QUOTE=Zenjo;/comments/10816884]Ok. This is my list at this point in the game.
Leaning Scum: Arnnaria - Post #168 - Also, I don't like his reasoning for having Chickenfish and Gamora on his town list. Gamora - Post #168 - Almost a FoS for Gamora since his being on my leaning scum list are based on his interactions with Arnnaria. Also how people had different ideas of the term bandwagon. Chickenfish - Post #119 - Way too defensive.
FoS: Eron - Has both good and bad posts. Not sure what my read on him is quite yet. Battlemaster - Most of his posts are in response to other posts and don't seem to have much strong opinion or reasons, seems too hung up on KCC and only has one reason for targeting her.
Neutural: Wheat_Grinder - Gone til Tuesday, not enough posts. Miracule - Neutral by way of not enough posts. I like how he jumps right in and posts a list of his own for his first 'real' post. Gigas1 - Don't see anything scummy in his post, like his reasoning, but neutral because of a lack of posting. KCC - Besides her last post (#205) and when she voted Chickenfish, the only thing she has done is explain why she was going to wait before giving her reasons.
Leaning Town: Foxlet - Good posts, but few. Like the reasons behind her suspicion list. Manders - Actively participating in discussions, can't find anything scummy.
UNVOTE VOTE:Arnnaria
I don't have a lot to say here. Reasoning seems valid, although I disagree with some of it. For example you say that BM is too hung up on KCC. Can you provide examples.
OVerall, I appreciate what Zenjo has done here. He jumped right in and started scumhunting. The logic seems reasonable for his posts and nothing has jumped out as overly scummy. Town.
I'm starting to get some not so warm & fuzzy feelings about a few people, but since it's the first day, honestly there isn't a lot to go on at this point...I don't entirely trust this, but will make note of it.
In the previous Gamora vs. Arnnaria bit. I'm a bit like Arnnaria. I like to read, and re-read posts (I tend to miss things), watch interactions then discuss opinions. Unfortunately in Mafia that usually = fence sitting. :\
There are several people I don't even have a start on reading yet either.
Unfortunately, this is going to address Gamora. I missed this the first time around. Gamora - if you are so anti-fence sitting, why no comment on Foxlet?
Now for my promised thoughts, such as they are. I should also add, this is my FOS list, everyone else is currently either neutral or leaning town because I can't get a good read, etc. All that is obviously subject to change.
Battlemaster - has been quick to cause disruption, in the name of discussion an example. I find there are better ways to have discussions than finger pointing.
ErontheRelentless - similar to Battlemaster, most of their posts have been pushy and "aggressive", forcing people into defensive mode. While it DOES promote discussion, again, there are better ways of doing it. Unless I've been to tired to notice, I also haven't noticed any opinions of his own at this time.
Kitty and Chicken - Lumping these two together, because I'm on the fence about both of them. I need to go back and read (again) all their posts. There were a few, to me very awkwardly worded sentences that both of them made.....Chicken...it could just be that he was just so wordy, and already on the defensive.....In Kitty's defense, it's harder to say (since they haven't posted as much). Or they could be playing off one another. I don't have enough evidence at either of them at the moment to be comfortable with a lynch or pursuing a bus on them.
I'll be adding more thoughts in a bit!
These are all your scum reads. Do you have town reads or are the rest neutral? Also, all I wanted to do was promote discussion. I don't mean to be pushy or aggressive, but I've been told that I'm that way IRL sometime.
Current read on Foxlet: Town. I would love to see discussion on the rest of the folks not on her list to get some additional color.
I've addressed his posts in the thread as of now. Came at me hard, which is cool, but hasn't addressed anyone else. I don't have a read yet because mine is probably a little skewed. Would love to see some comments on other folks.
Thanks!! -But don't get too attached, I love it, but it's only temporary.
But we're going to try keeping them retracted, right?
Unvote, Vote WG
When questioned about this Vote KCC provide reasoning that made sense early in the game. I think the fact that she was willing to provide some reasons for this one and not for the other one means that she does have a plan in mind and I am comfortable sitting back and letting this play out. But wait, here is another post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by EronTheRelentless
A close second to that is deflecting conversation.
Yes, in the direction of "Who else sees what I see?" -BTW, I'm not joking with the vote this time.
Which post were you joking about if the W_G post was a serious vote? This seems like a contradiction to me.
It's the mafia's job to worry about appearances -they need to blend in, make sure their excuses sound believable, and that their actions look reasonable. As town, you don't need to worry about any of that. You can just naturally go about your business, creating discussion, looking for info, and hunting scum. -And while you shouldn't ever go out of your way to draw negative attention, it's not really a big deal if you do come under some suspicion, because you can respond honestly, confident in the knowledge that your actions have legitimate explanations.
Also, people expressing suspicion of me isn't even clouding discussion. In fact, there is useful analysis to be made there. Who are the townies expressing real suspicions, and who are the scum faking it?
-And if you view that as a null tell, I agree. However, he specifically said he thought it would be a scum tell in this case, and therefore he shouldn't be giving out warnings before the tell can be made.
I'm fine with people going elsewhere. I just wanted to kick start discussion and get some more out of you, not have you be the center of attention all game. -You're not even my top suspect at this point. -But I'll explain my initial vote on you now, so you can respond.
Huge over-thinking/over-explanation of a random vote. Could be personality, could be nervousness, could be both. Nervousness could point to scum, or just being new. Point #1 here makes me believe he isn't familiar with how the RVS works, so this doesn't point heavily towards alignment.
I don't like the bolded. He could just be misusing the phrase, and not know how to word that idea better yet, but it could be a slip. Also not liking the "this was a plan, and it worked!" bit. -However, if he did overthink the random vote, this is a possible motivation for that, and his heart would be in the right place.
The bolded here is the main reason for my vote. First, there's a defense of Arn, saying it read naturally. But then he turns around and FOS's Arn, which he said was barely different from a vote at that stage.
And here it is. The reasoning is valid but now I'd love to hear more about your other suspects.
KCC is still neutral for me. I like her reasoning but I need to see more.
In an effort to avoid going through the whole KCC-CF ordeal, I'm going to discuss some highlights from the conversation.
Quote from Chickenfish »
Kitty, if this is an attempt to create discussion about people other than yourself, it's terrible. The reason I say this is it just looks like you want others to do your dirty work, saying "why they think you voted for me", so you can say "yep, that's it".
If you think I'm scum, or are at least getting more scum vibes from me than anyone else and want others' opinions, please elaborate instead of delaying
what could be meaningful discussion.
KCC has now provided her opinion. It was different then any random guesses that were thrown out and it was quite logical. Do you feel differently at this point? (I'm sure I'll see an answer as I get to today's posts...)
I think I've unfortunately over-explained a lot of things which makes it look like I'm doing some weaseling, which is unfortunate. However, once again, is this you asking others to do your dirty work or do you have a solid reason you can share with us?
It is absolutely their own job, but you were specifically asked by somebody for an explanation and told them to figure it out themself. Whether this is a 'teaching new players how to make reads' thing or not, I don't think it's valid. It's a fine line though, because if you think I'm scummy and am doing something the townies should be aware of, if you're a town member it's your job to point it out.
I agree that it's not necessarily a scumtell, but as I mention above I don't think it's a valid strategy for scumhunting. And I still find it a little odd that after being asked for the justification she flat out refused.
Still... no vote there, because I don't think it's necessarily a scumtell. I was merely trying to avoid a bunch of time being wasted with a discussion tactic I didn't believe would produce any useful discussion.
Unfortunately I don't know what to say but I agree with you. I probably defended my decisions a little too strongly... I suppose I was erring on the side of caution with not wanting to post anything contentless...
I have to spoil tag some of these posts...they're huge. Anywho, you state that you know you might appear to be doing some weaseling - and then you proceed to weasel (make another long post). This might be your style but less is more. It really does seem like you are talking in circles sometimes.
Second Bold - This seems strange to me. You argue that Manders was coming at you early and then agree that you defended yourself too much. Which is it?
Quote from Chickenfish »
The problem with this is that as a towny, I don't think the discussion is good for the town. As I've said earlier I have no reason to believe KCC is doing this because she's scum, and naturally I want to defend my case, so it risks turning the conversation into me vs KCC. With 10 other players out there, even if KCC is scum, that is far too narrow a discussion point on day 1 for my liking.
Also notice how I'm not arguing the vote on me, I'm arguing the method. I have no problem having a vote on me if it generates discussion, but I didn't believe that the way KCC went about it would.
I stand corrected on this point to some extent, though, although once again my concern is that it's largely whether people think KCC's lack of explanation is justified and/or my defensiveness is justified.
Why do you post that out every post? We get it. You're trying to convince us that you are town.
Quote from ChickenFish »
This is the problem... I think it's entirely possible KCC is town (bit less convinced as time goes on, but I don't like making reads based solely on playstyle and her content besides the weird vote has been... acceptable), but the bizarre strategy has created a situation in some people's minds where either KCC or I are scum. It's taken a lot of self-control not to vote, but when I really analyse how I feel I think the "scumtells" I'm getting could easily just be OMGUS vibes...
What's your read now?
Quote from ChickenFish »
Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyCupCake
That's a risk I'm willing to take to gather info, especially since I wouldn't really care if that happened anyway.
You don't care if people begin to suspect you're scum. If your motivation is truly creating discussion for information, why would you not care if it became clouded by people thinking you're scum?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyCupCake
Who, exactly? -Because I haven't seen anyone say this.
Arnnaria is the only one so far to have outright said he thinks there is a distinction between our alignments based on how the conversation went:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnnaria
Well, fwiw I have you leaning town and KCC leaning scum.
(along with a few other mentions of getting these vibes), but I wouldn't be surprised if there are others who've decided it has to be one way or the other.
I do believe that this happened. I was split between the two of you and based on the conversation that occured I could've gone either way, but I wouldn't have put you both on the same team either scum or town. I can say that this is changing.
Quote from ChickenFish »
While this is true in general, in the specific case of fence-sitting and/or lurking I disagree. If he is a truly indecisive player and/or scum, it's much better to encourage posting so that we can actually get a tell rather than what is potentially the null tell of a new player not wanting to commit to something and thus looking like scum.
I feel this is a valid concern. We want fence sitters to talk, otherwise we can't draw conclusions, however, the way it occured felt like active coaching.
Quote from ChickenFish »
You should let simple statements from people sway you so much - not even me
As far as I recall, I've only ever said I think it's possible KCC is town doing her job in a way she sees fit. If you've got a scum read on somebody, make sure you let it go for your own reasons. Also, before I get accused of mislead others into a vote, I genuinely mean this for everyone, including the people who have me in their sights. If something is bugging you about somebody, don't eliminate them as a possibility just because others do. Either satisfy yourself they're not, or keep them on your list.
Seriously, EVERY POST you have a statement like this. That is shady. Like you are trying to hint subliminally that you're town.
ChickenFish is leaning scum.
There you have it.
And here is a nice, simple list for any TL/DR's we have here:
Scum (in no particular order)
ChickenFish
Gamora
BattleMaster
So, if you think it's a scummy thing to do, why announce to everyone that you do it? Now that I'm going back and looking at this I'm not as comfortable with it. I missed this during my first few read throughs.
Because I wanted it out in the open. For most people fence-sitting is a scum tell. Because they don't want to commit to a person to go after and get caught in the maelstrom to follow.
Fence-sitting is just my playstyle. It's my lifestyle. I'm very bad at spotting what somebody did "wrong" and I see what people are doing "right". I would be 99.99% better at this game if all I had to figure out were town tells.
But I don't, I have to figure out who the scum are. And literally, this is the inexperience talking, because I have NEVER played scum in an online game. I don't know what are scum tells because I've never had to "avoid detection."
If you look at the Star Trek mafia, I claimed Survivor because I was getting some pressure from a few of the people. I did this because I thought it was my only way out. Eventually, a vig decided to shoot me and my cover was blown.
But Serial Killer seems like such a different role than Scum. I don't know if the Scum have daytalk, but I imagine they do and are plotting every devious ways to get a mislynch day one. I've never been in that boat, plotting with OTHER people against the town. So I'm very bad at reading that.
This feels extremely defensive to me. I think this is a town tell. Not knowing what else to say but feeling like you have to say something.
I started using the phrase "duly noted" when I was a Water Cooler Talk mod. To me it means I agree with your outcome, even though I don't agree with all the steps it took you to get there. Would you prefer if I say "I concure", the two are basically synonymous with me.
As far as your next list in #167, Manders gave quite a bit of detail on this. Details that i agree with. I would like to ask since you said "been actively trying to find cracks in the dam, but without scumhunting himself." - what exactly do you define as scum hunting? Does this post suffice? Better yet, what scum hunting have you done up to this point? You have not directly confronted/questioned anyone that I've seen to this point.
Yes this post more than suffices. And no, I haven't done much scum hunting up until this point. I avoid confrontations until I need information. Which is why I placed the vote on you (even though I didn't realize at the time that you had two other votes on you). It wasn't until I got this clarification that you only needed 4 more that I rescinded my vote. However, I'm glad I did because this wall of text is the best post that has been given on various alignments of people thus far.
Edited out a few entries. Can you further elaborate on Zenjo? I'm not catching your meaning. Are you two teaming up?
The "Zenjo:" part was that I was directly talking to Zenjo. Nothing more, nothing less.
Don't get me wrong - I appreciate you unvoting me, but what explanation to my playstyle would help you get to 100%?
If you strung up two or three people, and only two or three people, I would've been suspicious. That's why I asked you to provide "2-3" reads. I wanted to see if you'd take the bait and just scum hang a couple townies. But now that you've responded to everyone in spades, I think you've shifted to neutral in my eyes.
The only completed game I've played with Arnnaria had him playing something like this. He was a serial killer though, so I'm not sure it counts. However, I've developed the opinion that he actually does play that way as all alignments.
Unless I misunderstand your meaning, we're nowhere close to a lynch on anyone. You read as overly anxious towards Arnnaria. I'll keep that in mind if either of you gets more scummy.
You are not on the list of players I accept this from (kpaca, Iso, Seppel).
I happen to find him scummy as well, but I still don't like this.
So you're saying it's okay to be scummy early so long as you make up for it later?
I checked it, and it was as I suspected, that game and this are the only ones we've played together. Ah well.
You read as overly worried about an RVS vote to think about it that much. FoS Chickenfish, since I don't want to leave a vote sitting on you while I'm not around.
See you guys all on Tuesday!
@Manders. the bolded section was where it was mentioned about Anarria`s previous play.
From what I understand this scenario looks more like like an example of "barning". Where you have people jumping on a bandwagon without giving an solid reasons of their own.
A bandwagon certainly can result in a mislynch (although it`s also likely it that won`t result in a lynch at all), I`m was more reffering to the process of the bandwagon itself rather than the possible lynch resulting from it.
With a bandwagon out there you force people to take a side. You`re either on or off. Ideally this would give scum less wiggle room and force them into a concrete opinion that we can refer back to for the rest of the game.
@Eron, you might have have missed this post when you say I backtracked on that line of thought. Which is weird since it came just 3 posts after the other one you quoted.
Sidenote: the last couple days have been unexpectedly busy. I`m working on getting caught up and being more active in this game again.
@Eron, you might have have missed this post when you say I backtracked on that line of thought. Which is weird since it came just 3 posts after the other one you quoted.
Sidenote: the last couple days have been unexpectedly busy. I`m working on getting caught up and being more active in this game again.
Just so we are on the same page - You want other people to provide "concrete opinions" with "less wiggle room" and when confronted and asked for a list of your own, you refuse? Sounds town to me.
I think there is valid reasoning here regarding Arnnaria and Gamora. Regarding the bold (and I know it was yesterday) do you have any additional opinions on CF?
I don't have a lot to say here. Reasoning seems valid, although I disagree with some of it. For example you say that BM is too hung up on KCC. Can you provide examples.
Chickenfish seems way too defensive and what really bugs me is how he kept on demanding a reason for KCC's vote on him. So, I wouldn't say additional opinions. More like re-evaluated opinions. I did order the people in my list and he is at the bottom of the leaning scum section.
Battlemasters only given reason for targeting KCC was...
There is no why anyone you should hold back information about scum tells. All it does it hurt the town. You could better teach new players by showing the where the scum tells you found are. FOS KittyCupCake
(1) KCC for not having one helpful post the whole game. I know we talked about this earlier but I thought she would have at least given us some clues or something…
It just seems to me that half of his posts are about KCC not having helpful posts.
I don’t understand what you mean by disruption. All I have been been doing is giving my 2 cents into the conversations. Not only is it important to find the scum but make sure we don’t lynch townies. The reason I haven’t been actively going after every player is I haven’t had enough time.
I'll post a reply below the cut, to help with clutter
Reading back, I have to admit, disruption wasn't the best word to describe this. As with Eron, I just found the finger pointing early in the game (with no actual scum hunting, IMO) rather pointless and distasteful. It gave me a rather poor opinion of you.
I understand the time crunch (I have way too much on my plate at the moment) It's why I've mostly stuck with a FoS list and have not voted on anyone at this time.
There is no why anyone you should hold back information about scum tells. All it does it hurt the town. You could better teach new players by showing the where the scum tells you found are. FOS KittyCupCake
Best way to learn, is do it (participate in a game) and read. I gotten a few tips from friends, but some from reading the excellent info on the forum and wiki. I also have read finished Mafia games looking for how people play....when I had more spare time.
My point here is, you were jumping on KCC, but Eron was doing the same thing.
However as we are nearing the end of day one I hope you don't plan on holding information like this in because I don't want to make my decision without all the facts.
However you like to present it, whether it is in cute little lists with bullet points, smilies or quote pyramids, I think EVERYONE will be pressured to fork over some sort of read.
If Arnarria he uses this quote as an excuse later on to sit back later not contribute much to the group or as an excuse to ride the bandwagon/hammer people. It would be a good indication that he was scum. If he does not I don’t really read it as a scum tell.
I hoped my comment would also cause Arnarria to not fence sit the rest of the game.
Arnarria has been posting often but a lot of it is chatter. It has however moved the discussion and brought up some new points as well. Your posts have been fewer and have done less to "contribute to the group" overall (compared to Arnarria's).
Having said all that! I would in no way vote for you at this state in the game. I realize that my suspicions are weak, and based on too few posts of yours at the moment. I just wanted to explain myself a bit better.
Just so we are on the same page - You want other people to provide "concrete opinions" with "less wiggle room" and when confronted and asked for a list of your own, you refuse? Sounds town to me.
After thinking on this awhile the unwillingness to provide reads when asked point blank is really bugging me. Vote: Gamora
I was asked by Arnnaria today and felt obliged. He did the same when asked by Manders. Foxlet, Manders and KCC all provided additional reasoning as they stated they would.
I like your reads and comments (even if I don't always agree with them), but you do bring up several good points for people to think and discuss. I'm REALLY tired at the moment, so wanted to at least comment on my portion.
I promise I will get more out tomorrow. Everyone has been putting out some excellent posts I'd like to comment on!
Unfortunately, this is going to address Gamora. I missed this the first time around. Gamora - if you are so anti-fence sitting, why no comment on Foxlet?
<shrugs> I do sometimes lurk on the thread for a little while just to see if anything comes up that I want to jump on quickly...Not to mention that just thinking, editing, and typing a post can frequently take longer than it should.
I'm a frequently a slow thinker, when I have the time of course I'd rather make 10 posts that are (mostly) thoughtful and decent (yeah I have my fluff ones) instead of 20+ that are...sub par
These are all your scum reads. Do you have town reads or are the rest neutral? Also, all I wanted to do was promote discussion. I don't mean to be pushy or aggressive, but I've been told that I'm that way IRL sometime.
It was my original FoS only list just because everyone else I couldn't really a read on at the time....Not that I'm saying I can get a great read on everyone now, but it's still better than before due to the increased posting
I'm working on another one as people have been posting more, that includes neutrals and towns as well.
Oh, I'm completely open to the possibility and if I decide that I think she's scum, I'll ride her all the way to the noose.
But I do not think she is scum, and it is not because we are friends. It's because I've seen her town play and her scum play, and this is her town play.
This is at best a WIFOM. The fact that you as her friend "know" it's her town play, she'd do it as scum. This makes me suspicious of you, because you seem like a better player than to gloss over this logic. Either that or you're blinded by friendship, but after that being my initial criticism, I'd hope you'd put that aside in making this post.
...Seriously? Remind me where I demanded her reasoning for the vote, rather than question the logic behind and pointing out the potential risk of posting that way?
Here
Quote from Chickenfish »
If you think I'm scum, or are at least getting more scum vibes from me than anyone else and want others' opinions, please elaborate instead of delaying
what could be meaningful discussion.
...and here.
Quote from Chickenfish »
If you think I'm scum, enlighten us why rather than essentially giving them a choice between you and me.
Quote from Chickenfish »
Also, have you just glossed over the multiple times where I've said why I didn't think an explanation later would be ok?
You explained why it wouldn't be okay, yes, and I agree with you. If everyone in the thread suddenly started stating reasons why KCC would vote for you, then it's possible that she could steal one, but I think the only valid suggestion was that it was a joke vote (which was refuted by KCC), so its a moot point, as long as no one jumps to her defense.
Quote from Chickenfish »
Also confused as to how people are fine with the 'voting with no explanation is how KCC plays day 1', but not 'overexplaining is how Chickenfish plays'. I'm not going to shorten my explanations/defenses, because that how I feel I need to express myself. It's that simple.
Once again, if you have an issue with the actual things I've said, rather than how I've said them, let me know!
I have no experience with KCC in any mafia game before this, so I have no idea if that's how she plays consistently.
Also, I never said overexplaining was why I thought you were scummy. It struck me as weird that you reacted so strongly to her vote, but still think she is town.
Those first quotes are taken out of context. They're followup statements demonstrating why I thought the voting style wasn't helpful, not direct requests for explanation.
The next bit - totally irrelevant that nobody made a valid suggestion. It doesn't mean KCC wasn't attempting to get one.
The last bit - I've already explained that the reaction was to the method, not the vote. I realise that you had a lot of catching up to do, but this really looks like you're intentionally misinterpreting things and taking them out of context (giving you the benefit of the doubt that you wouldn't have posted accusation without having done solid reasoning of the whole situation)
It's the mafia's job to worry about appearances -they need to blend in, make sure their excuses sound believable, and that their actions look reasonable. As town, you don't need to worry about any of that. You can just naturally go about your business, creating discussion, looking for info, and hunting scum. -And while you shouldn't ever go out of your way to draw negative attention, it's not really a big deal if you do come under some suspicion, because you can respond honestly, confident in the knowledge that your actions have legitimate explanations.
Also, people expressing suspicion of me isn't even clouding discussion. In fact, there is useful analysis to be made there. Who are the townies expressing real suspicions, and who are the scum faking it?
While it is the mafia’s job to worry about appearances, it’s also a scum-suspected towny’s job to remove suspicion so that conversation doesn’t take a wrong turn. As such, ‘naturally going about your business’ should involve that honest defense you mention, not blatantly ignoring a challenge in logic like you did for quite some time.
-And if you view that as a null tell, I agree. However, he specifically said he thought it would be a scum tell in this case, and therefore he shouldn't be giving out warnings before the tell can be made.
I disagree entirely. Seeing it as a scum tell is only the beginning. Has anybody ever lynched because of a vague scum tell that could also be suboptimal play by a newer player? If I’ve got a scum tell on somebody, I want them to talk as much as possible so that I can pick holes in their logic and behavior.
I'm fine with people going elsewhere. I just wanted to kick start discussion and get some more out of you, not have you be the center of attention all game. -You're not even my top suspect at this point. -But I'll explain my initial vote on you now, so you can respond.
Quote from Chickenfish »
I'm... concerned that you ask that question after quoting that bit of my post...
That aside - my vote was neither random nor serious. As the second person in the game to post, I had 3 options:
1) I could put a random joke vote on somebody for the sake of discussion, but you'd already done that.
2) I could write a post without a vote, but as the second poster in the game if it wasn't in response to yours (which as a joke vote is hard to respond to) it would have little impact on the game, so why post at all?
3) Vote for a player who's already posted. With my options limited, it had to be you Manders.
Huge over-thinking/over-explanation of a random vote. Could be personality, could be nervousness, could be both. Nervousness could point to scum, or just being new. Point #1 here makes me believe he isn't familiar with how the RVS works, so this doesn't point heavily towards alignment.
Quote from Chickenfish »
I went with 3 because it actually had the potential to create discussion. And, based on the fact that I'm writing this post, and:
(not to much of a stretch to interpret this as me - posted a few times then went away while you guys kept chatting), it worked!
Not so great that I've given off a scum tell, however, as the sort of discussion I intended to start wasn't giving scum a potential scapegoat (me) to hide behind...
If you haven't picked up on it yet, the vote wasn'tserious... however, I'll leave it where it is for now (see below).
I don't like the bolded. He could just be misusing the phrase, and not know how to word that idea better yet, but it could be a slip. Also not liking the "this was a plan, and it worked!" bit. -However, if he did overthink the random vote, this is a possible motivation for that, and his heart would be in the right place.
Quote from Chickenfish »
Gamora, while I agree that out of context it could be taken like that, I really only read it as a continuation of the conversation. A vote based on that seems a bit strong to me, but I suppose this far from lynch there's not much difference between a vote and a FoS...
However, the conversation itself is doing very little in terms of scumhunting, or even getting us on the right track. There's not much content in the large number of posts from Manders and Arnnaria. They're talking about personalities outside the game, rather than doing anything to develop the current game (this talk of personalities could all just be fake-reputation building, and even if it's not, if people are bringing their actual personalities to the table they will be evident to us anyway).
Furthermore, as Eron pointed out, the only response he got to an actual mention of the game was a "..." from Manders, while she goes on to answer Arnnaria with somevaguely game-related chitchat, not actual development of discussion.
As such, my initial joke-vote actually has a reason to stay on its recipient, so I'll leave it where it is.
FoS: Arnnaria for good measure too.
Is it necessary to bold + blue our FoSing, or is this in fact just going to be detrimental to your ability to skim and tally?
tl;dr - initially voted to generate discussion, since then MandersHex's contentless posts have made me decide to leave the vote where it is.
The bolded here is the main reason for my vote. First, there's a defense of Arn, saying it read naturally. But then he turns around and FOS's Arn, which he said was barely different from a vote at that stage.
Quote + response 1: I appreciate it was early game, but surely it’s evident that it’s a personality thing by now? I’ll admit I wasn’t sure how to approach getting back into my first game for about a year so I just went full throttle, but I don’t think it was nervousness as such…
Quote + response 2: This really is a bit of a stretch. Obviously I was using the phrase to mean ‘done something to make you suspect I’m scum’ rather than ‘oh whoops you know I’m scum now’. Even if you don’t respect my playstyle, surely you don’t genuinely believe I’d be that dumb? Clutching at straws…
Quote + response 3: This is a read? Did you read the sentence before my FoS? “As such, my initial joke-vote actually has a reason to stay on its recipient, so I'll leave it where it is.” Me saying an FoS isn’t that different to a vote early is clearly a statement that early votes aren’t severe so both are valid ways of expressing suspicion. With a vote already on a player I had some suspicions about, rather than unvote them and vote my new suspicion, I just FoSed my new suspicion. You’ve pointed out a consistency and tried to spin it as an inconsistency.
This bit’s important so it’s outside the spoiler (relates to the end chunk of the spoiler if it’s a tl;dr for anyone:
If this is the supposed tell you were hiding, I now genuinely believe that you were hoping somebody else would come up with a better argument for you. Unvote, Vote KittyCupCake
I wasn’t sure how to feel about you, with some posts seeming flaky and some seemingly like aggressive (in the good sense) scumhunting, but your list is monstrous. Genuinely impressed. On the whole I think you’ve got some really solid logic and good intentions in that post, but I’ve got a few questions about some bits, and have a bunch to say about the parts directed at me (surprise!).
Quote from EronTheRelentless »
Quote from Chickenfish »
Kitty, if this is an attempt to create discussion about people other than yourself, it's terrible. The reason I say this is it just looks like you want others to do your dirty work, saying "why they think you voted for me", so you can say "yep, that's it".
If you think I'm scum, or are at least getting more scum vibes from me than anyone else and want others' opinions, please elaborate instead of delaying
what could be meaningful discussion.
KCC has now provided her opinion. It was different then any random guesses that were thrown out and it was quite logical. Do you feel differently at this point? (I'm sure I'll see an answer as I get to today's posts...)
I missed the bit where KCC’s response swere ‘quite logical’. I think for a while they were ‘as expected’, but see above as to my change of heart.
Quote from EronTheRelentless »
Quote from Chickenfish »
I think I've unfortunately over-explained a lot of things which makes it look like I'm doing some weaseling, which is unfortunate. However, once again, is this you asking others to do your dirty work or do you have a solid reason you can share with us?
It is absolutely their own job, but you were specifically asked by somebody for an explanation and told them to figure it out themself. Whether this is a 'teaching new players how to make reads' thing or not, I don't think it's valid. It's a fine line though, because if you think I'm scummy and am doing something the townies should be aware of, if you're a town member it's your job to point it out.
I agree that it's not necessarily a scumtell, but as I mention above I don't think it's a valid strategy for scumhunting. And I still find it a little odd that after being asked for the justification she flat out refused.
Still... no vote there, because I don't think it's necessarily a scumtell. I was merely trying to avoid a bunch of time being wasted with a discussion tactic I didn't believe would produce any useful discussion.
Unfortunately I don't know what to say but I agree with you. I probably defended my decisions a little too strongly... I suppose I was erring on the side of caution with not wanting to post anything contentless...
I have to spoil tag some of these posts...they're huge. Anywho, you state that you know you might appear to be doing some weaseling - and then you proceed to weasel (make another long post). This might be your style but less is more. It really does seem like you are talking in circles sometimes.
Second Bold - This seems strange to me. You argue that Manders was coming at you early and then agree that you defended yourself too much. Which is it?
Why is it that “this might be your style” hasn’t turned into “this is your style” by now??? Also I realise the bolded sentence is very awkwardly worded, but it was a combination of tiredness + phone using. I hope it’s obvious that the specific sentence was awkward phrasing due to lack of rereading, not because I wanted to drive a lame argument home.
You’re going to have to explain your bit after ‘second bold’. There’s no second bold in the post, and your comment doesn’t make sense as a suspicion to me. Manders was coming at me and I defended myself? Isn’t that the natural order?
Quote from EronTheRelentless »
Quote from Chickenfish »
The problem with this is that as a towny, I don't think the discussion is good for the town. As I've said earlier I have no reason to believe KCC is doing this because she's scum, and naturally I want to defend my case, so it risks turning the conversation into me vs KCC. With 10 other players out there, even if KCC is scum, that is far too narrow a discussion point on day 1 for my liking.
Also notice how I'm not arguing the vote on me, I'm arguing the method. I have no problem having a vote on me if it generates discussion, but I didn't believe that the way KCC went about it would.
I stand corrected on this point to some extent, though, although once again my concern is that it's largely whether people think KCC's lack of explanation is justified and/or my defensiveness is justified.
Why do you post that out every post? We get it. You're trying to convince us that you are town.
This feels like a misinterpretation to me, but as opposed to my criticism of KCC, it doesn’t seem as deliberate, as this is easy to misinterpret if you’ve got your eye on me. The bit you’ve bolded is a logical qualifier. In response to observation that me not liking the conversation was a bad sign, I pointed out that as a towny it also wasn’t in my interest. I was debunking the argument, not pleading my towny case.
…
A few of my posts you agree with or ask the KCC question, as answered above
…
Quote from EronTheRelentless »
Quote from Chickenfish »
You should let simple statements from people sway you so much - not even me
As far as I recall, I've only ever said I think it's possible KCC is town doing her job in a way she sees fit. If you've got a scum read on somebody, make sure you let it go for your own reasons. Also, before I get accused of mislead others into a vote, I genuinely mean this for everyone, including the people who have me in their sights. If something is bugging you about somebody, don't eliminate them as a possibility just because others do. Either satisfy yourself they're not, or keep them on your list.
Seriously, EVERY POST you have a statement like this. That is shady. Like you are trying to hint subliminally that you're town.
Could you please clarify what exactly bugs you about it? I’m not trying to subliminally hint I’m town, I’m saying things as a towny. If that bugs you, it’s because other things have gotten to you (obviously) and so you’re reading pro-town things I say as non-genuine. That has almost nothing to do with the specific bolded sentence.
Now onto your stuff about other people:
Quote from EronTheRelentless »
So to summarize MadersHex, I'm on the fence. She clearly goes hard with some people and not with others at this point in the game. The other thing to call out is she specifically says that she scumhunts whether she is Scum or Town. That means that all of this work is almost a null tell for me. I'm leaning town at this point though because she has some extremely valid points.
The majority of your comments about Manders appear to be that she’s inconsistent with the way she scrutinises, but then you put her as ‘leaning town’ for valid points? With lots of her ‘big’ posts being vague observations rather than specific concern, what are these extremely valid points that have made you decide she’s leaning town rather than the null you almost settle on, or even slightly scummy for the vast inconsistency you’ve observed? And why does the extreme inconsistency not outweigh these valid points, when with me you
Quote from EronTheRelentless »
can see where Chicken is coming from. I think that the discussion (or lack there of) between them was rather jarring.
for what has been the crux of most of my posts, but my manner is a bit shady? (Not accusing you of foul play – genuinely interested)
Quote from EronTheRelentlees »
In summary for Arnnaria - I'm town on this one. Some confusing entries that I would love clarification on, but he has stepped up his game lately (even though it was against me) and he been asking good questions. I reserve the right to change my mind if his answers are not sufficient.
Once again, your summary appears to be largely criticizing, but you go with leaning town. Your justification is that ‘he’s stepped up his game’, but this combined with the fact that you think a handful of posts need clarification is surely a null tell at best. Somebody who was told to step up their game because they looked scummy did step up their game, and it’s a town read? Total null.
Quote from EronTheRelentless »
Overall, I appreciate what Zenjo has done here. He jumped right in and started scumhunting. The logic seems reasonable for his posts and nothing has jumped out as overly scummy. Town.
You seem easily appeased on this front. All I’m seeing Zenjo do in the bits you’ve posted is reiterate things other they’ve said as though they’re his (did we determine Zenjo’s sex?). Prime example:
Quote from EronTheRelentless »
Quote from Zenjo »
Ok, I think I found something. Chickenfish puts up an elaborate post defending his joke vote. The thing is, there were quite a few joke votes being thrown around at the same time and they didn't need such an explanation.
Then his response to KCC's waiting to tell why she voted him.
If KCC already said she was going to let some discussion happen about why she voted him, discussion which is good for town, then what is the point in arguing?
Once the KCC gives the reason then you can defend yourself. It's not like your going to get lynched while waiting for KCC to give her reasons.
FoS:Chickenfish
Immediate scum hunting after a read through. Cool.
“Ok, I think I found something”? Must’ve been hard. /sarcasm.
EVERYBODY had ‘found’ this, and it had been discussed at length.
As for the second bit, It had also been discussed at length with me justifying my position before Zenjo’s post. How is it even remotely valid scumhunting FoSing me for a bunch of questions to which I’d already responded? If you didn’t like my response, that’s a different story. While it’s an immediate attempt at scum hunting, it’s a very poor one. I was going to get to this later, but it appears I already have. FoS: Zenjo
Quote from EronTheRelentless »
Quote from KittyCupCake »
CF analysis…
And here it is. The reasoning is valid but now I'd love to hear more about your other suspects.
How do you (and others, if they’ve made it this far) feel about my interpretation of KCC’s ‘reasoning’?
I hope I accurately represented your post, Eron. Bolding withing quotes withing quotes is doing my head in.
At the moment I have no particularly strong town reads, but my list looks like this:
Eron – leaning town. While I’d like clarification/opinions on my comments on the big post, intentions of the big post seem good.
BattleMaster, Zenjo – leaning scum, but this is largely due to infrequency of posts. They haven’t said heaps, but what they have is giving me the feeling that they’re simply trying to appear to contribute. Zenjo a bit more suss than BM for this reason.
Manders – leaning scum for what I discussed above. Ruthless (the seemingly good way) in your hunting, but inconsistent in your treatment of people. This big positive and big negative make it really hard for me to place you, but the glossing over of the obvious logic regarding KCC's style puts you on the scum side of things for now.
KCC, Gamora – Top of my list, for reasons already explained.
Arnnaria – neutral as also explained above. Initial quietness but then attempting to be more involved after prompting can be scum doing what he’s told is less scummy, or newish town doing what he’s told is less scummy.
Everyone else – neutral because posts a brief and few. Tend to have good points, but also tend to be points that have already begun to be covered. Excited to hear from Foxlet, as these brief posts seem to have the best insight of the neutrals.
You seem easily appeased on this front. All I’m seeing Zenjo do in the bits you’ve posted is reiterate things other they’ve said as though they’re his (did we determine Zenjo’s sex?). Prime example:
“Ok, I think I found something”? Must’ve been hard. /sarcasm.
EVERYBODY had ‘found’ this, and it had been discussed at length.
As for the second bit, It had also been discussed at length with me justifying my position before Zenjo’s post. How is it even remotely valid scumhunting FoSing me for a bunch of questions to which I’d already responded? If you didn’t like my response, that’s a different story. While it’s an immediate attempt at scum hunting, it’s a very poor one. I was going to get to this later, but it appears I already have. FoS: Zenjo
How do you (and others, if they’ve made it this far) feel about my interpretation of KCC’s ‘reasoning’?
I drove 8 hours back to college today, which is why I haven't posted yet. That, and this is my first game and I don't feel like I'm very good at 'reading' people yet.
I see several things that might be considered scummy, but they have been defended well. I'll probably have to re-read everything a few times before I actually see something. Truthfully I feel a bit lost.
I'm male.
Also, "I think I found something", was a continuation of this post. And, btw, my first read on a mafia game ever. Not to mention I felt pressured to post something by Eron in post 109/110.
You read as overly worried about an RVS vote to think about it that much. FoS Chickenfish, since I don't want to leave a vote sitting on you while I'm not around.
See you guys all on Tuesday!
Wheat Grinder is the only person I see who expressed the same concern as me before my post. EVERYBODY found this?
If KCC already said she was going to let some discussion happen about why she voted him, discussion which is good for town, then what is the point in arguing?
Once the KCC gives the reason then you can defend yourself. It's not like your going to get lynched while waiting for KCC to give her reasons.
FoS:Chickenfish
My main point with this second part is that you kept asking for an explanation of her vote.
In these posts you do question KCC's methods which I like. But you also flat out ask for her reasons for voting you. I can see asking once, but three times?
As for KCC's reasoning for voting you, I think it's valid, but rather weak.
Kitty, if this is an attempt to create discussion about people other than yourself, it's terrible. The reason I say this is it just looks like you want others to do your dirty work, saying "why they think you voted for me", so you can say "yep, that's it".
If you think I'm scum, or are at least getting more scum vibes from me than anyone else and want others' opinions, please elaborate instead of delaying what could be meaningful discussion.
We're scumhunting - never too early to worry about people who are making that harder.
The rush is exactly what I pointed out. Do you want everyone to simply say "yep, I see it", then you tell us what you saw, or are you just making other people do your work?
As I said, I can understand this strange behavior as an attempt to create conversation, but all it will do is split people into groups of "Chickenfish was a bit eager in his voting/defense" and "Kitty is being unproductive". If you think I'm scum, enlighten us why rather than essentially giving them a choice between you and me.
It is completely absurd to vote this way. You are voting giving literally no reason, then asking others if they can see why you did.
If you want others to see my as suspicious, it shouldn't be their job to see why.
I think I've unfortunately over-explained a lot of things which makes it look like I'm doing some weaseling, which is unfortunate. However, once again, is this you asking others to do your dirty work or do you have a solid reason you can share with us?
It is absolutely their own job, but you were specifically asked by somebody for an explanation and told them to figure it out themself. Whether this is a 'teaching new players how to make reads' thing or not, I don't think it's valid. It's a fine line though, because if you think I'm scummy and am doing something the townies should be aware of, if you're a town member it's your job to point it out.
I agree that it's not necessarily a scumtell, but as I mention above I don't think it's a valid strategy for scumhunting. And I still find it a little odd that after being asked for the justification she flat out refused.
Still... no vote there, because I don't think it's necessarily a scumtell. I was merely trying to avoid a bunch of time being wasted with a discussion tactic I didn't believe would produce any useful discussion.
Unfortunately I don't know what to say but I agree with you. I probably defended my decisions a little too strongly... I suppose I was erring on the side of caution with not wanting to post anything contentless...
Quote + response 2: This really is a bit of a stretch. Obviously I was using the phrase to mean ‘done something to make you suspect I’m scum’ rather than ‘oh whoops you know I’m scum now’. Even if you don’t respect my playstyle, surely you don’t genuinely believe I’d be that dumb? Clutching at straws…
I've seen worse, but as I mentioned in the analysis, it's not a strong indicator of alignment. -I was just going through the whole post.
Quote + response 3: This is a read? Did you read the sentence before my FoS? “As such, my initial joke-vote actually has a reason to stay on its recipient, so I'll leave it where it is.” Me saying an FoS isn’t that different to a vote early is clearly a statement that early votes aren’t severe so both are valid ways of expressing suspicion. With a vote already on a player I had some suspicions about, rather than unvote them and vote my new suspicion, I just FoSed my new suspicion. You’ve pointed out a consistency and tried to spin it as an inconsistency.
While the rest of this analysis was just there to explain the reasons for my initial vote, this was the only part that I really wanted you to address to at this point. -And you haven't.
I had no problem with you leaving your vote and FOSing a new suspect. My issue here is that you defended Arn's post, saying that it read naturally to you as part of the conversation, and then you placed suspicion on him anyway.
If this is the supposed tell you were hiding, I now genuinely believe that you were hoping somebody else would come up with a better argument for you.
I never said it was some huge tell. We were in the early game, and it was something for me to look into. -In fact, the only reason I even approached it the way I did is because The FOS wasn't a strong tell, and because of that it likely wouldn't have resulted in much discussion. And that wasn't helpful to me because I wanted you to be under the spotlight for a bit...
Quote + response 1: I appreciate it was early game, but surely it’s evident that it’s a personality thing by now? I’ll admit I wasn’t sure how to approach getting back into my first game for about a year so I just went full throttle, but I don’t think it was nervousness as such…
I agree. I don't think it was nervousness, and therefore I don't think it's a scum tell. But, the best way for me to figure that out was to quickly put a lot of attention on you and see if you crack. And you didn't. And while I'd still like more of a response to point 3, I'm otherwise happy to move on now. Especially since someone should be back soon.
How do you (and others, if they’ve made it this far) feel about my interpretation of KCC’s ‘reasoning’?
It was only on page six, and the game was in a weird transitioning-out-of-RVS. I'm not too bothered by the vote without explanation. The first thing I thought when she did that was "oh, shes going to try to stir things up a bit". And it worked, it sparked a lengthy conversation between the two of you. It also made people take sides to some extent. All of these things, while maybe not helpful now, (since the reasoning she gave was admittedly weak), later on everything that was said about this interaction can be used as evidence. Would you have preferred more time durdling about in RVS?
So basically, you're right, her reasons for the vote were not very strong at all. Her reasoning for not telling the reasons were perfectly justified.
I've returned from my short vacation. I see that we've gained quite a few posts over the night, so I'll work on reading them soon, but not now.
Anyone want to give a quick rundown for me?
You didn't miss much. There has been a bunch of finger pointing, a bunch of lists, arguing over whether said lists are effective in this game. But no one has gotten over 4 votes. People are finally starting to discuss seriously how they feel about one another, but this hasn't led to any sort of wagon on definitive proof that Person X is scum.
It`s looking like I`m going to have a tough time getting anyone on board with my Arnarria case. I`ll read through once more and see if I can word my argument a little more clearly. I don`t feel like I`ve quite stated it as welll as I could. If it`s still not doing anything for anyone else I might have to just move on.
Okay, first, I've been doing it for far longer than those last two have even been on this site.
Secondly, you're right that if I go through the game without ever explaining anything, you should absolutely kill me, because that's just not how I play. -But, there's a huuuge difference between waiting to explain my reads and never doing it.
What I'm saying is that early Day 1 is not the place to be making cases and pushing for lynches. -At this stage of the game, drawing reactions, creating discussion, and getting people to take stances is far more important. -Plus, if you call out possible scum tells too early, and then that player stops doing it, it's hard to tell whether it was an innocent mistake, or if that player is scum who was just given directions on how to blend in better. And the latter is not something you want to do. -But a time will come for making cases, and when it does, I'll be happy to share everything I've noticed.
Now that I know you're TFF, I accept it a little bit more for the first, and I'm satisfied with your replies for the second.
Hi everybody, sorry I haven't posted for the last day or two; I found out yesterday I got a full scholarship to college, and have still been enjoying that. I'll make a decent post tomorrow, but for now I will be getting to bed.
Hi everybody, sorry I haven't posted for the last day or two; I found out yesterday I got a full scholarship to college, and have still been enjoying that. I'll make a decent post tomorrow, but for now I will be getting to bed.
Congratulations.
I'm gonna be doing a re-read and posting some new content tonight, hopefully.
My main point with this second part is that you kept asking for an explanation of her vote.
In these posts you do question KCC's methods which I like. But you also flat out ask for her reasons for voting you. I can see asking once, but three times?
As for KCC's reasoning for voting you, I think it's valid, but rather weak.
I've already addressed this in my previous response to Miracule:
Quote from Chichenfish »
Those first quotes are taken out of context. They're followup statements demonstrating why I thought the voting style wasn't helpful, not direct requests for explanation.
I appreciate that you may be new and feeling pressured, but you can agree and elaborate on what people have already said rather than 'finding it' as your own.
KCC: I appreciate what seems like a big change of heart from you - lots of cool logic that's easy to agree with. However, my vote stays where it is due to what I think is the perfectly justified paranoia that comes with an observed change of heart.
While the rest of this analysis was just there to explain the reasons for my initial vote, this was the only part that I really wanted you to address to at this point. -And you haven't.
As for a response to the issue you have - I wasn't defending Arnnaria, I was reasoning out loud. I was saying I didn't necessarily think the specific issue Gamora had with it was a scum tell, but then go on to say I don't think the conversation that was taking place was doing much for anyone, then give the FoS. I think that's fairly evident from the post.
Really? You can't see other people saying I got too defensive?
I've already addressed this in my previous response to Miracule:
I appreciate that you may be new and feeling pressured, but you can agree and elaborate on what people have already said rather than 'finding it' as your own.
Yes, but Wheat Grinder is the only one besides me that mentions that it was a joke vote you were being overly defensive about. Also, I didn't catch that he said that until you made me go back and search for people who also said that. Also because he used the term RVS. Speaking of which, what does RVS stand for? I understand that its the first stage where there are joke votes. Random Votes and Silliness?
I don't know if you will believe me, but I said what I found by myself.
Ok, think about it this way. I'm taking notes on notepad as I'm reading through all the posts. Which comes first, your post or the other people's post saying your post is way too defensive.
All I'm doing is saying why I'm suspicious of you. I really don't care who said what first, what matters to me is whether or not I think the reasoning behind it is valid.
Seems like I'm not alone in needing to catch up. In the meantime, RVS stands for Random Vote Selection, in which everyone votes for whoever, for whatever.
If you think I'm scum, or are at least getting more scum vibes from me than anyone else and want others' opinions, please elaborate instead of delaying
what could be meaningful discussion.
We're scumhunting - never too early to worry about people who are making that harder.
The rush is exactly what I pointed out. Do you want everyone to simply say "yep, I see it", then you tell us what you saw, or are you just making other people do your work?
As I said, I can understand this strange behavior as an attempt to create conversation, but all it will do is split people into groups of "Chickenfish was a bit eager in his voting/defense" and "Kitty is being unproductive". If you think I'm scum, enlighten us why rather than essentially giving them a choice between you and me.
It is completely absurd to vote this way. You are voting giving literally no reason, then asking others if they can see why you did.
If you want others to see my as suspicious, it shouldn't be their job to see why.
I think I've unfortunately over-explained a lot of things which makes it look like I'm doing some weaseling, which is unfortunate. However, once again, is this you asking others to do your dirty work or do you have a solid reason you can share with us?
It is absolutely their own job, but you were specifically asked by somebody for an explanation and told them to figure it out themself. Whether this is a 'teaching new players how to make reads' thing or not, I don't think it's valid. It's a fine line though, because if you think I'm scummy and am doing something the townies should be aware of, if you're a town member it's your job to point it out.
Those first quotes are taken out of context. They're followup statements demonstrating why I thought the voting style wasn't helpful, not direct requests for explanation.
I understand that they're followup statements, but at the same time you did ask for an explanation three times. If you were questioning the reasoning behind it, you could have just as easily only said "this is silly and pointless until you give reasoning" instead of "this is silly and pointless, please give reasoning". There is a subtle difference, but it's there. I think it's only more scummy of you to pass this off as not asking for reasoning at all or not meaning it, which is worse.
My vote is leaning strongly towards you right now, ChickenFish.
Not sure whether you’re asking for where she's asked or where she's answered, but:
A few asked for an explanation (or at least, saying that the vote with no explanation seems dodgy is an implied request for explanation).
Right, and she said she would provide it later. This is a valid response to a request for elaboration.
f you mean where has she refused, I've already addressed the same question from KCC herself. As I've explained previously, simply waiting for somebody else to mention "what she's seen" and then saying "yes that's what it was" is as good as not providing an explanation at all in my mind.
Then your mind is flawed. Seriously, this is how Mafia works. You would have hated playing with Chamber, from what I've heard. That guy never provided reasons, prefering for people to make their own decisions. Annoying, yes, but a valid strategy, and Chamber was one of the best.
IF someone had provided the reasoning that she provided to where all she could say was, "Yep, that was it," I wouldn't have cared. Why? It's one read! There will be plenty more in the spanse of the game to analyze.
Also, a lot of discussion has been created surrounding it, and now people appear to be starting to move onto other things - with KCC having posted since, you'd think that it would be a good time for her to explicitly express concern in case the town forget about who she thinks is giving of scumtells. However, this hasn't happened, so that in itself is a refusal.
No, it's not a refusal. Refusal is (and only is) stating, "No, I'm not going to do that, not now or ever." She has never once stated this, and your insistance to continuously state that she pretty much has is just terrible.
I wasn't trying to avoid wasting time discussing a tactic - I was trying to avoid wasting time discussing a vote. This is why I started asking about the tactic - the vote itself had very little to discuss, and speculation on KCC's motivation would have wasted time when we simply could have been told it. Subtle difference I suppose, but it's there.
The tactic = a vote, dude. This is just ridiculous.
Quite a pseudo-response from you. If you're implying that this is a scumtell, I'd like to understand your interpretation. My initial vote + explanation was to generate discussion, and since then I have attempted to generate + participate in discussion. Contentless posting isn't in my interest as scum or town - saying that this is a scum tell is you seeing what you want to see.
You are extremely concerned with your image. It has oozed out of every goddamn post you've made. This is a classic scumtell.
I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I have done nothing but express that concern from the start, based on the fact that it quite quickly happened in Arnnaria's reads soon after. The false dichotomy is not at all in my interests.
You are the only one who's said, "If Arnnaria is town, then KCC is scum". Ergo, you're the one that created the dichotomy in the first place.
For quick reference, the response in question was:
I think Arnnaria's posts are all fairly vague, so there's not much to respond to here. There will be much more to respond to once this vagueness (hopefully) evolves into Arnnaria's answer to the posts you've just written.
Yeah, he ignored me. I'm not happy.
Once again, quite a pseudo-response. This is verging on active lurking – you aren’t making a case for anything, and are leaving the creating of content up to me. Moving past that (for now), I’ll take statement as a ‘think more and elaborate’, and here is what you get:
All I was missing was the justification of that reaction. I felt it was incredibly wishy-washy, and as such realised that the only consistency in Gamora’s posting/voting was the inconsistency. So a vote was given.
No, his reaction was acceptable. Eron is acting kinda like Chicken Little up in here, and I can understand where Gamora came from.
You jumping at the opportunity to vote him, however...
The answer is already in the bit you’ve quoted. As I’ve unfortunately done, a towny being seen as suspicious and scummy clouds the conversation, because it turns into a misguided scumhunt. Once again – you’re not actually creating content here. The real question is why shouldn’t she?
Even dead townies can be good for the town.
See above – me being seen as scum distracts from the actual hunt.
No, it totally doesn't.
As for the rest of your post, seeing as it’s not directed at me I won’t do a quote by quote (also I have to go out, so if you wish I can elaborate in a few hours), but here goes:
Arnnaria is definitely posting things with very little content. However, a lot of it appears to be what can be boiled down to noobiness (we’ll see if this continues), but also awaiting responses from people. With a post from you now Manders, I’m interested in seeing some actual opinions from Arnnaria.
LOL interest denied.
Also, re you thinking my jumping in and getting over my head is potentially indicative of noob scum – I’m not a noob. Used to play all the time elsewhere… sure it’s probably a year or so since I’ve played, but if I were scum I’d be well aware that saying too much is how to get caught.
As you’ve noticed, I like to make sure my point has come across. So far the major criticism of my play I’ve seen is that I seem too defensive – this is because I try to post in a way that won’t require followup questions and everybody losing a day or 2 (real time) because of time differences. If you think there are holes in my logic, on the other hand, I think that criticism is totally valid.
Oh, so you're not a noob? Awesome.
There’s a lot of friendliness happening between you and KCC… not sure how much I like this based on the fact that I can’t get a solid read on KCC. At the moment I’m boiling it down to you two thinking very similarly, but this will definitely require reassessment if either of you flips scum.
As I said, this is due to us being friends IRL. You said, "Yeah, but that shouldn't affect the game."
Chickenfish posted awhile back on how he thinks KCC isn't scum, but just town trying to do her job. That pretty much convinced me to change her from leaning scum to neutral.
Why?
I know you're against this, but I want to see a list from Eron.
And to apply the pressure. Vote ErontheRelentless
1) Why would I be against you actually doing something?
2) Why do you care if I am for against something, anyway? Like, so much so as to be so vocal about it?
Here is my gut reaction to the most active posters:
Townie:
Foxlet - Hasn't been overly active but has been contributing his ideas. Hasn't done anything that makes me think he would be anything but town.
She's a girl. There's 3 of us ITT.
KCC - Generated a lot of discussion with the ChickenFish vote and jumpstarted real conversation. Further interactions with ChickenFish may have people splitting them town/scum. While this isn't exactly a positive thing, it isn't a scum tell either.
Who is splitting them as town/scum?
Scummy:
EronTheRelentless - Doesn't like lists, and brought up 3 times the players that haven't posted. If people are absent or silent, there isn't really much to talk about, and lists are important at every stage of the game, in my opinion anyway. I feel like you were trying to divert attention from conversations that were actually getting people to talk about interesting things.
Good observations that other people have already said time and time again.
Gamora - Voted arrnaria and backed down quickly. Didn't offer up any opinion on the KCC/Chickenfish thing. Talks a lot about how helpful discussion is for town, but hasn't contributed much himself.
What does this mean to you?
ChickenFish - A bit overzealous while discussing KCC's vote. Demanded to get her reasoning immediately, even though she said she would later.
Again, what does this mean to you?
Still not sure where I stand with Arnnaria or Manders.
Your relationship IRL is almost irrelevant here. It's still possible to be open to the possibility of a friend being scum.
Let me tell you something about me. I love my friends. Very much. And I show it. I don't care if they're on my team or not, I'm going to be friendly to them. This is why interactions between me and my friends (most notably so Iso and Seppel) cannot be analyzed. However, this will not stop me from going head to head with any of them if I decipher that they are scum, which has happened.
As far as I recall, I've only ever said I think it's possible KCC is town doing her job in a way she sees fit. If you've got a scum read on somebody, make sure you let it go for your own reasons.
So, you're admitting to being scum, then?
Cause you said that if one of you is town, the other is scum.
Thanks for doing that. Unvote Vote: Chickenfish
This is semi-hypocritical, and I hope you can see why. Your posts are a lot of just agreeing with other people, or making incredibly vague statements. Happy to see you taking a solid stand finally, but still keeping in mind it's a stand that Gigas has already taken...
I initially put it down to you saying you're new, but it doesn't even really seem you've attempted to up your game. Also, as I stated in my huge response to Manders, I'd put your quiteness down to awaiting a response from Manders. You lost your suspicion because Manders said 'oh there's explanation to come', and that seemed good enough for you for the time being. The explanation did come (in spades!), and you didn't even think to respond to it? This concerns me. Greatly. FoS: Arnnaria
How many times are you going to FoS him before you give in and vote?
Also confused as to how people are fine with the 'voting with no explanation is how KCC plays day 1', but not 'overexplaining is how Chickenfish plays'. I'm not going to shorten my explanations/defenses, because that how I feel I need to express myself. It's that simple.
You're the only one that's said "Overexplaining is how Chickenfish plays". Self-meta is nowhere near as worthy as others providing the meta.
Meaning, because others have said this about KCC and not she herself, it means more than you saying you overexplain in game.
Also, for me, it's not that you overexplain. Plenty of people. You have shown clear signs of being extremely concerned with your image.
You should have responded to everything else I said instead.
Chickenfish: I would see scum flailing, but Chickenfish has remained calm, cool, and collected thoughout his entire "trial."
If he was a noob, I'd say you have a point. But he's not. So, no, that earns no town points from me.
Gamora: I need clarification on WIFOM but I will be asking my mentor.
Good, cause he can explain it better than I can.
@ Fazzur!!
KCC: If Chickenfish doesn't think she's scum, I have no reason to believe she's scum. I know this is barning, but my only reason for thinking she was scum in the first place was because Chickenfish vs. KCC turned into a big deal. The more I read about KCC, the more I'm convinced she's town.
I see absolutely no reason Chickenfish's opinion should matter this much to you.
Eron and Battlemaster: seem deadset on steering the conversation away from lists and reads, but haven't provided any list or reads themselves.
I'll have to review their posts again, but I'm pretty damn sure both of them have provided reads.
1) Why would I be against you actually doing something?
2) Why do you care if I am for against something, anyway? Like, so much so as to be so vocal about it?
I was referring to Eron. Eron said he was against lists. That "you" is directed toward Eron, not you Manders.
I see absolutely no reason Chickenfish's opinion should matter this much to you.
I agree. I'm letting other people's opinions force my thinking. I'll work to correct that. It just seems, everyone is so much more eloquent than I am when expressing their views.
Update on my status: I just took a midterm so my brain is kinda fried. But the work's not over yet, I still have a quiz to study for, take, and a lab to finish. My brain should be fully healed by Friday.
Why is it that “this might be your style” hasn’t turned into “this is your style” by now??? Also I realise the bolded sentence is very awkwardly worded, but it was a combination of tiredness + phone using. I hope it’s obvious that the specific sentence was awkward phrasing due to lack of rereading, not because I wanted to drive a lame argument home.
You’re going to have to explain your bit after ‘second bold’. There’s no second bold in the post, and your comment doesn’t make sense as a suspicion to me. Manders was coming at me and I defended myself? Isn’t that the natural order?
Again it is because you are talking in circles. You address the same thing multiple times. If you weren't doing this, every post wouldn't have to be so long.
Quote from ChickenFish »
This feels like a misinterpretation to me, but as opposed to my criticism of KCC, it doesn’t seem as deliberate, as this is easy to misinterpret if you’ve got your eye on me. The bit you’ve bolded is a logical qualifier. In response to observation that me not liking the conversation was a bad sign, I pointed out that as a towny it also wasn’t in my interest. I was debunking the argument, not pleading my towny case.
So are you denying that the majority of your posts don't have some sort of qualifier? Because they do. Someone who is town does not need to expressly find a way to slip it in to every post.
Quote from ChickenFish »
Could you please clarify what exactly bugs you about it? I’m not trying to subliminally hint I’m town, I’m saying things as a towny. If that bugs you, it’s because other things have gotten to you (obviously) and so you’re reading pro-town things I say as non-genuine. That has almost nothing to do with the specific bolded sentence.
See above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EronTheRelentless
So to summarize MadersHex, I'm on the fence. She clearly goes hard with some people and not with others at this point in the game. The other thing to call out is she specifically says that she scumhunts whether she is Scum or Town. That means that all of this work is almost a null tell for me. I'm leaning town at this point though because she has some extremely valid points.
The majority of your comments about Manders appear to be that she’s inconsistent with the way she scrutinises, but then you put her as ‘leaning town’ for valid points? With lots of her ‘big’ posts being vague observations rather than specific concern, what are these extremely valid points that have made you decide she’s leaning town rather than the null you almost settle on, or even slightly scummy for the vast inconsistency you’ve observed? And why does the extreme inconsistency not outweigh these valid points, when with me you
Quote:
Originally Posted by EronTheRelentless
can see where Chicken is coming from. I think that the discussion (or lack there of) between them was rather jarring.
for what has been the crux of most of my posts, but my manner is a bit shady? (Not accusing you of foul play – genuinely interested)
Because Manders has been scum hunting and all you have done is defended your self. I agree with some of your defense (not all, clearly) but I agree with some of Manders scum hunting. When looking at the two in a vaccuum, I feel the scumhunter leans town and the person on defense constantly (and not always a valid defense) leans scum.
Quote from ChickenFish »
Once again, your summary appears to be largely criticizing, but you go with leaning town. Your justification is that ‘he’s stepped up his game’, but this combined with the fact that you think a handful of posts need clarification is surely a null tell at best. Somebody who was told to step up their game because they looked scummy did step up their game, and it’s a town read? Total null.
Largely critical is an over statement. Sure there were negative points, some very negative, but for the most part, I feel at this point Arnnaria's explanations have been good enough. I also agreed with him on a few points. That has to count for something.
Quote from ChickenFish »
You seem easily appeased on this front. All I’m seeing Zenjo do in the bits you’ve posted is reiterate things other they’ve said as though they’re his (did we determine Zenjo’s sex?).
It's more than some have done.
Quote from ChickenFish »
How do you (and others, if they’ve made it this far) feel about my interpretation of KCC’s ‘reasoning’?
I hope I accurately represented your post, Eron. Bolding withing quotes withing quotes is doing my head in.
I think you got the gist of it.
I will say that I think KCC's reasoning was weak, but valid. I really need to go back and reread all the interactions though, because you have had significantly more posts regarding the situation than she.
We have had 2 people by my count offer a list so far. Both were certainly lacking in detail. We are not far enough in to have sound judgement IMHO.
Newer players (myself included) could be swayed by a scum list with a somewhat vague reasoning.
Let's not start any riots here.
I'm inclined to disagree, as long as reasoning is given with the list. It helps create more discussion. If there isn't any reasoning, though, it's not helpful and I generally agree. I personally like people to know where I stand on everyone.
If Arnarria he uses this quote as an excuse later on to sit back later not contribute much to the group or as an excuse to ride the bandwagon/hammer people. It would be a good indication that he was scum. If he does not I don’t really read it as a scum tell.
I hoped my comment would also cause Arnarria to not fence sit the rest of the game.
I don’t think I made any correlation to that.
I really don't like that at all, it smells strongly of coaching. I've got you as scum.
(1) KCC for not having one helpful post the whole game. I know we talked about this earlier but I thought she would have at least given us some clues or something…
(2) Arnnaria
My that glass house looks indefensible against the stones you're throwing.
Grrrrr, I was almost done with the post for page 6 and IE decides to crap out. I HATE IE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Starting again.
I think you should use IE for its one true purpose: To download Firefox or Chrome.
---
So then, my current T/S list:
Town
MandersHex: Plenty of scumhunting, and reads similar to mine.
Zenjo: Town-tells everywhere, along with good scum-hunting.
Foxlet: Town-telling like crazy.
Leaning Town
Gamora: Has said some stuff I don't like, and Arnnaria tried to tie himself to him, but he's seemed townier lately.
Gigas1: I agree with a lot said in his post, but I'd love to see more.
EronTheRelentless: Tons of effort. However, I've seen a few things I don't like here and there, so not completely cleared to me.
KittyCupCake: TBH I'm terrible at reading you, but you don't seem too scummy and Manders vouched for you.
Neutral
Miracule: Needs more posts.
Scum
Arnnaria: So much I don't like. So much.
Chickenfish: Keeps posting very oddly, and I don't like it. I don't really like lynching him today, though, because he at least has been posting quite a bit.
Battlemaster: Posts very little, and what he does I disagree with almost completely.
Vote: Battlemaster
I think Battlemaster is the scummiest of the three, but I'll happily vote Arnnaria, and somewhat less happily vote Chickenfish.
This is my first game, but if I don't follow the logic of the 'vague reasoning' then I would refuse to be 'swayed'. I do however find it interesting that you include yourself explicitly in that sentence, giving yourself an excuse to 'be swayed'.
I must agree that it is too early for lists. It would create discussion, but would also leave out some people.
As Eron mentioned, in reference to the first quote. I would find it MORE worrisome if he left himself out of that sentence. I know several of us are new to the game and still finding our way.
That being said, I thought the general idea of Mafia was to sway each other Scum obviously want you to vote for townies, and town want to hunt down scum. It doesn't give anyone the right to be bullied, it also doesn't give anyone the right to not do their own reads.
Ugh, I sound like a school teacher! If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding!
People can be swayed, but if you are intelligent, you should do your own homework based on what people are saying.
Chickenfish seems way too defensive and what really bugs me is how he kept on demanding a reason for KCC's vote on him. So, I wouldn't say additional opinions. More like re-evaluated opinions. I did order the people in my list and he is at the bottom of the leaning scum section.
It just seems to me that half of his posts are about KCC not having helpful posts.
Yes, but Wheat Grinder is the only one besides me that mentions that it was a joke vote you were being overly defensive about. Also, I didn't catch that he said that until you made me go back and search for people who also said that.
I don't know if you will believe me, but I said what I found by myself......
All I'm doing is saying why I'm suspicious of you. I really don't care who said what first, what matters to me is whether or not I think the reasoning behind it is valid.
Overall I like your reads, they seem thoughtful and put together (doing your homework, you could say). I bolded the parts that stuck out about some of your posts.
It was basically what I was referring to above in the post Eron made about being swayed. Anyone of us can make all sorts of shenanigans posts, but hopefully it should really just make you go back and make you draw your own your OWN conclusions instead of blindly following someone else. This is where I'm at with my scum lists and whatnot. It's why I wanted to get some new opinions out for everyone to hash out
It really doesn't help me improve my game when I'm showing up on scum lists with no reasons behind them. "Don't like what he's doing." doesn't really give me much to work with.
Battlemaster has requested replacement due to feeling unable to deal with multiple-week-long Day phases. I will inform you of when I find a replacement.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Battlemaster has requested replacement due to feeling unable to deal with multiple-week-long Day phases. I will inform you of when I find a replacement.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It really doesn't help me improve my game when I'm showing up on scum lists with no reasons behind them. "Don't like what he's doing." doesn't really give me much to work with.
You want a case? You've got one, spoilered for convenience, even:
Yeah I know what you mean on the "lost" part. Sometimes when I'm playing this game I feel like I'm throwing darts with a blindfold on. Maybe a mentor could help.
Chickenfish posted awhile back on how he thinks KCC isn't scum, but just town trying to do her job. That pretty much convinced me to change her from leaning scum to neutral.
This is the big one. You are taking hints from another scummy player. What are we supposed to see except that you two are scumbuddies?
I know you're against this, but I want to see a list from Eron.
And to apply the pressure. Vote ErontheRelentless
Flopping your vote out there and blatantly saying it's pressure so that it's worthless (though to be fair I've seen you do it as town and I've also done it myself as town).
If you strung up two or three people, and only two or three people, I would've been suspicious. That's why I asked you to provide "2-3" reads. I wanted to see if you'd take the bait and just scum hang a couple townies. But now that you've responded to everyone in spades, I think you've shifted to neutral in my eyes.
Bolded: Sounds reminiscent of a certain scumlist you made.
Battlemaster has requested replacement due to feeling unable to deal with multiple-week-long Day phases. I will inform you of when I find a replacement.
Oh well. Unvote, Vote: Arnnaria
I figure I'll let his replacement have a little time to get situated.
I think the only valid suggestion was that it was a joke vote (which was refuted by KCC), so its a moot point, as long as no one jumps to her defense.
I jumped to her defense. What do you think of that?
Also, I never said overexplaining was why I thought you were scummy. It struck me as weird that you reacted so strongly to her vote, but still think she is town.
It's the mafia's job to worry about appearances -they need to blend in, make sure their excuses sound believable, and that their actions look reasonable. As town, you don't need to worry about any of that. You can just naturally go about your business, creating discussion, looking for info, and hunting scum. -And while you shouldn't ever go out of your way to draw negative attention, it's not really a big deal if you do come under some suspicion, because you can respond honestly, confident in the knowledge that your actions have legitimate explanations.
Truer words were never spoken. Although, sometimes, people just never believe otherwise, and town gets lynched (or modkilled for quoting Seppel, but eh ;)). Luckily, sometimes the death of a townie is exactly what is needed in order to locate the actual scum.
The bolded here is the main reason for my vote. First, there's a defense of Arn, saying it read naturally. But then he turns around and FOS's Arn, which he said was barely different from a vote at that stage.
Now that I've shown how he's, twice now, FoS'd Arnnaria, but never voted him, what do you think?
Leaning Scum: Arnnaria - Post #168 - Also, I don't like his reasoning for having Chickenfish and Gamora on his town list. Gamora - Post #168 - Almost a FoS for Gamora since his being on my leaning scum list are based on his interactions with Arnnaria. Also how people had different ideas of the term bandwagon. Chickenfish - Post #119 - Way too defensive.
FoS: Eron - Has both good and bad posts. Not sure what my read on him is quite yet. Battlemaster - Most of his posts are in response to other posts and don't seem to have much strong opinion or reasons, seems too hung up on KCC and only has one reason for targeting her.
Neutural: Wheat_Grinder - Gone til Tuesday, not enough posts. Miracule - Neutral by way of not enough posts. I like how he jumps right in and posts a list of his own for his first 'real' post. Gigas1 - Don't see anything scummy in his post, like his reasoning, but neutral because of a lack of posting. KCC - Besides her last post (#205) and when she voted Chickenfish, the only thing she has done is explain why she was going to wait before giving her reasons.
Leaning Town: Foxlet - Good posts, but few. Like the reasons behind her suspicion list. Manders - Actively participating in discussions, can't find anything scummy.
Offered a vote with little to no reasoning at the time. Followed by:
Not many people had at this point but you only requested this of Arnnaria. Why not ask everyone/folks that hadn't offered much in the way of opinon at the time?
He was the one that made the post beforehand (which I have shown what post that was now) that pinged my scumdar.
Foxlet also posted no reasons on her list. You coach her, but for Arnnaria it was a lead to follow. Why not have the same opinion for both?
Because I do not believe Foxlet to be scum.
I can see where Chicken is coming from. I think that the discussion (or lack there of) between them was rather jarring.
That's irrelevant in this case. He's saying that there's an expressed dichotomy of one of them has to be town and the other scum. I've seen no one but him state that.
As in he is missing something from his post or missing something in the game?
From the game.
I can get behind this. Initially not knowing what your prompting of Arnnaria for a list was was unsettling. I love that both you justify your reasoning and that it makes sense. You also stated that you would explain later and you did.
I keep my promises. It may take me longer than I intended, but I do.
I only recall something along these lines once. Did I miss something? I think a casual statement about gameplay is ok.
I agree, but yes, he's made more than one. I'll highlight them when/if I decided to PBPA him.
You've gone very in depth with all of your other feedback, however, you have nothing but a cryptic comment for Battlemaster. This is a red flag for me.
I'm not focused on him.
I do, the whole list thing got blown out of proportion, IMO. I hope I have cleared it up at this point, but if not, I'll consider the damage done and move on.
Forgiven, but not forgotten.
I don't think I have, and I'll be getting to him soon.
You were very vocal as to your dislike of me asking him for a list, so far as to state it's not enough to call the :mob:. (Sorry, I HAD to use that new smilie. :D) You were definitely defending him. How can you say you don't think you have?
So to summarize MadersHex, I'm on the fence. She clearly goes hard with some people and not with others at this point in the game. The other thing to call out is she specifically says that she scumhunts whether she is Scum or Town. That means that all of this work is almost a null tell for me. I'm leaning town at this point though because she has some extremely valid points.
For the record, even my best friends cannot read me. (For instance, in Seppel's recent game that he hosted, I was town, came under pressure D1, and the whole time I fought for my life, he was reading me as ScumManders...knowing damn good and well I was town. :D)
I'd be more worried if you did have a concrete read on me atm.
Just so we are on the same page - You want other people to provide "concrete opinions" with "less wiggle room" and when confronted and asked for a list of your own, you refuse? Sounds town to me.
After thinking on this awhile the unwillingness to provide reads when asked point blank is really bugging me. Vote: Gamora
This post was at 11:38. What happened to change your level of "bugging".
[QUOTE=Chickenfish;/comments/10816896]This is at best a WIFOM. The fact that you as her friend "know" it's her town play, she'd do it as scum. This makes me suspicious of you, because you seem like a better player than to gloss over this logic. Either that or you're blinded by friendship, but after that being my initial criticism, I'd hope you'd put that aside in making this post.
You misunderstand. My friendship with her has absolutely nothing to do with my read of her. I have played in many, many games with her. Her playstyle is quite different depending on whether she's town or scum. Everything I'm seeing here points towards town. That doesn't mean I'm not still watching her to see if I've interpreted incorrectly, mind you. Just that, at the moment, I'm content she is town.
Hi everybody, sorry I haven't posted for the last day or two; I found out yesterday I got a full scholarship to college, and have still been enjoying that. I'll make a decent post tomorrow, but for now I will be getting to bed.
As for a response to the issue you have - I wasn't defending Arnnaria, I was reasoning out loud. I was saying I didn't necessarily think the specific issue Gamora had with it was a scum tell, but then go on to say I don't think the conversation that was taking place was doing much for anyone, then give the FoS. I think that's fairly evident from the post.
This = defending. Why are you trying to pass off that it doesn't?
I understand that they're followup statements, but at the same time you did ask for an explanation three times. If you were questioning the reasoning behind it, you could have just as easily only said "this is silly and pointless until you give reasoning" instead of "this is silly and pointless, please give reasoning". There is a subtle difference, but it's there. I think it's only more scummy of you to pass this off as not asking for reasoning at all or not meaning it, which is worse.
My vote is leaning strongly towards you right now, ChickenFish.
I agree. I'm letting other people's opinions force my thinking. I'll work to correct that. It just seems, everyone is so much more eloquent than I am when expressing their views.
Could you be more self-conscious of how you appear?
Oh, I'm completely open to the possibility and if I decide that I think she's scum, I'll ride her all the way to the noose.
But I do not think she is scum, and it is not because we are friends. It's because I've seen her town play and her scum play, and this is her town play.
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You explained why it wouldn't be okay, yes, and I agree with you. If everyone in the thread suddenly started stating reasons why KCC would vote for you, then it's possible that she could steal one, but I think the only valid suggestion was that it was a joke vote (which was refuted by KCC), so its a moot point, as long as no one jumps to her defense.
I have no experience with KCC in any mafia game before this, so I have no idea if that's how she plays consistently.
Also, I never said overexplaining was why I thought you were scummy. It struck me as weird that you reacted so strongly to her vote, but still think she is town.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It's the mafia's job to worry about appearances -they need to blend in, make sure their excuses sound believable, and that their actions look reasonable. As town, you don't need to worry about any of that. You can just naturally go about your business, creating discussion, looking for info, and hunting scum. -And while you shouldn't ever go out of your way to draw negative attention, it's not really a big deal if you do come under some suspicion, because you can respond honestly, confident in the knowledge that your actions have legitimate explanations.
Also, people expressing suspicion of me isn't even clouding discussion. In fact, there is useful analysis to be made there. Who are the townies expressing real suspicions, and who are the scum faking it?
-And if you view that as a null tell, I agree. However, he specifically said he thought it would be a scum tell in this case, and therefore he shouldn't be giving out warnings before the tell can be made.
I'm fine with people going elsewhere. I just wanted to kick start discussion and get some more out of you, not have you be the center of attention all game. -You're not even my top suspect at this point. -But I'll explain my initial vote on you now, so you can respond.
Huge over-thinking/over-explanation of a random vote. Could be personality, could be nervousness, could be both. Nervousness could point to scum, or just being new. Point #1 here makes me believe he isn't familiar with how the RVS works, so this doesn't point heavily towards alignment.
I don't like the bolded. He could just be misusing the phrase, and not know how to word that idea better yet, but it could be a slip. Also not liking the "this was a plan, and it worked!" bit. -However, if he did overthink the random vote, this is a possible motivation for that, and his heart would be in the right place.
The bolded here is the main reason for my vote. First, there's a defense of Arn, saying it read naturally. But then he turns around and FOS's Arn, which he said was barely different from a vote at that stage.
Arnnaria (1): MandersHex
Gamora (2): Chickenfish, Zenjo
Miracule (1): Battlemaster
Chickenfish (1): KittyCupCake
EronTheRelentless (3): Gamora, Gigas1, Arnnaria
With 12 alive, it is 7 to lynch.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
So... Unvote Eron
Leaning Scum:
Arnnaria - Post #168 - Also, I don't like his reasoning for having Chickenfish and Gamora on his town list.
Gamora - Post #168 - Almost a FoS for Gamora since his being on my leaning scum list are based on his interactions with Arnnaria. Also how people had different ideas of the term bandwagon.
Chickenfish - Post #119 - Way too defensive.
FoS:
Eron - Has both good and bad posts. Not sure what my read on him is quite yet.
Battlemaster - Most of his posts are in response to other posts and don't seem to have much strong opinion or reasons, seems too hung up on KCC and only has one reason for targeting her.
Neutural:
Wheat_Grinder - Gone til Tuesday, not enough posts.
Miracule - Neutral by way of not enough posts. I like how he jumps right in and posts a list of his own for his first 'real' post.
Gigas1 - Don't see anything scummy in his post, like his reasoning, but neutral because of a lack of posting.
KCC - Besides her last post (#205) and when she voted Chickenfish, the only thing she has done is explain why she was going to wait before giving her reasons.
Leaning Town:
Foxlet - Good posts, but few. Like the reasons behind her suspicion list.
Manders - Actively participating in discussions, can't find anything scummy.
UNVOTE VOTE:Arnnaria
Offered a vote with little to no reasoning at the time. Followed by:
Not many people had at this point but you only requested this of Arnnaria. Why not ask everyone/folks that hadn't offered much in the way of opinon at the time?
I can see where Chicken is coming from. I think that the discussion (or lack there of) between them was rather jarring.
As in he is missing something from his post or missing something in the game?
I can get behind this. Initially not knowing what your prompting of Arnnaria for a list was was unsettling. I love that both you justify your reasoning and that it makes sense. You also stated that you would explain later and you did.
I'm going to come back to this.
I only recall something along these lines once. Did I miss something? I think a casual statement about gameplay is ok.
I agree with this statement and when it was accompanied by V/LA as pointed out earlier it seems a little convenient. I'll get to Arnnaria specifically later though.
You've gone very in depth with all of your other feedback, however, you have nothing but a cryptic comment for Battlemaster. This is a red flag for me.
Yes.
I do, the whole list thing got blown out of proportion, IMO. I hope I have cleared it up at this point, but if not, I'll consider the damage done and move on.
I don't think I have, and I'll be getting to him soon.
Again nothing for Foxlet. No comments, no opinons, just a thanks.
So to summarize MadersHex, I'm on the fence. She clearly goes hard with some people and not with others at this point in the game. The other thing to call out is she specifically says that she scumhunts whether she is Scum or Town. That means that all of this work is almost a null tell for me. I'm leaning town at this point though because she has some extremely valid points.
I agree with this statement personally, but other players seem to believe that this is an acceptable playstyle, so I would like to see how this plays out.
Oops. Everyone else has touched on this so I don't feel the need. I do agree with having all the facts. (Hence the list debacle)
I agree, and at this point this is a lurking situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battlemaster
We will have to see. If arnarria just banwagons/lurks then then this quote, will be a big scum tell. If not then I agree null tell.
What is your justification in this? Are you coaching Arnnaria to post?
Regarding the bold - When do you anticipate having enough time? This is exactly the same thing that you find to be a scum tell on Arnnaria.
Your reasoning for Arnnaria is the same thing that you said you were doing in your last post. This doesn't jive with me.
To summarize on Battlemaster - after reviewing your posts individually I find them suprisingly lacking in content. There appears to be either active coaching to Arnnaria or you are claiming that the behavior that he has is a scum tell but it isn't a problem when you don't post... Leaning scum.
No read, V/LA
Followed by...
No real pushback - in fact this is the only comment regarding what you said.
So one person making a statement is enough for you to drop your case? You took a stance when it seemed pretty convenient - "It was the first scummy thing" - and you dropped it like it was hot.
So you have now justified this because of previous playstyle? You thought it was scummy to begin with. So does that mean behavior is only scummy if people actual end up being scum? How does your opinon change if Arnnaria does end up being scum?
The second part of this quote seems off to me. Your only stated justification for Arnnaria being scum was that he was fence sitting. If you no longer believe this to be a tell, why would it not eliminate him at that time? You never provided any other reasons why he would be. By my count if you eliminate one of one things you're even.
I agree with this statement and I don't believe that we have received enough reasoning behind the original quote.
Honestly, I don't consider what I said "fear-mongering". It's colorful language, and maybe it isn't tailored to your taste but "fear-mongering"? C'mon. It's the same as using "fear-mongering".
Besides myself, how many people have you tried to pin down with stances and opinons? You're standing up free discussion, but you haven't really been doing more than replying to people that question you directly.
You sure did defend them like they were the best thing since sliced bread at that point in the game. You're all about progress. Until..
The second backpeddle (unprompted) of the game begins.
Conclusion - at this point I see Gamora leaning scum. He takes stands and claims mistakes with little to no pushback when it appears no one is behind him. You have done a lot of talking without giving any firm opinions that you stand behind. Granted you haven't unvoted me, but you have however backed down from 2 positions. And if we don't count this second one as backing down, you certainly have dropped it. I guess because no one put any heat on you.
While I don't agree with this method of play, I don't read this as scum. Arnnaria has actually been more consistent then this post would let on. I know that there aare concerns about his V/LA after making this statement, but real life happens. As long as he is posting when available and I haven't seen "fence sitting" as of yet.
So, if you think it's a scummy thing to do, why announce to everyone that you do it? Now that I'm going back and looking at this I'm not as comfortable with it. I missed this during my first few read throughs.
Like Manders said, this tells me nothing. WIFOM (first time I've used that :D)
This. This is why I was anti-list. There was no benefit to this at this point in the game. Apparently some players were viewing this as a scum tell. I can't say for sure that if I was asked at that point I could have come up with anything more than this. That is why I was "defending" Arnnaria. To me this felt like a reason to slam a vote on him. I think though at this point if someone were to produce the same thing it would concern me a lot more.
Word. "Forced me to play my hand" = colorful language.
This, I believe is the dichotomy that Manders was talking about. But Manders clarified why she was upset about your list.
This to me has been clarified. Do you agree?
This feels extremely defensive to me. I think this is a town tell. Not knowing what else to say but feeling like you have to say something.
As far as your next list in #167, Manders gave quite a bit of detail on this. Details that i agree with. I would like to ask since you said "been actively trying to find cracks in the dam, but without scumhunting himself." - what exactly do you define as scum hunting? Does this post suffice? Better yet, what scum hunting have you done up to this point? You have not directly confronted/questioned anyone that I've seen to this point.
Boom. Here it is.
Edited out a few entries. Can you further elaborate on Zenjo? I'm not catching your meaning. Are you two teaming up?
Don't get me wrong - I appreciate you unvoting me, but what explanation to my playstyle would help you get to 100%?
In summary for Arnnaria - I'm town on this one. Some confusing entries that I would love clarification on, but he has stepped up his game lately (even though it was against me) and he been asking good questions. I reserve the right to change my mind if his answers are not sufficient.
First post with content is a doozy. Definitely has some good reasoning on the scum list. But nothing only one vote with content for town? That seems off to me. Also, what about Gigas and Zenjo? I understand leaving of W_G.
Immediate scum hunting after a read through. Cool.
I already discussed this post. But here is more questioning and prodding. Zenjo sure didn't waste anytime.
I don't have a lot to say here. Reasoning seems valid, although I disagree with some of it. For example you say that BM is too hung up on KCC. Can you provide examples.
OVerall, I appreciate what Zenjo has done here. He jumped right in and started scumhunting. The logic seems reasonable for his posts and nothing has jumped out as overly scummy. Town.
Unfortunately, this is going to address Gamora. I missed this the first time around. Gamora - if you are so anti-fence sitting, why no comment on Foxlet?
These are all your scum reads. Do you have town reads or are the rest neutral? Also, all I wanted to do was promote discussion. I don't mean to be pushy or aggressive, but I've been told that I'm that way IRL sometime.
Current read on Foxlet: Town. I would love to see discussion on the rest of the folks not on her list to get some additional color.
I've addressed his posts in the thread as of now. Came at me hard, which is cool, but hasn't addressed anyone else. I don't have a read yet because mine is probably a little skewed. Would love to see some comments on other folks.
When questioned about this Vote KCC provide reasoning that made sense early in the game. I think the fact that she was willing to provide some reasons for this one and not for the other one means that she does have a plan in mind and I am comfortable sitting back and letting this play out. But wait, here is another post:
Originally Posted by EronTheRelentless
A close second to that is deflecting conversation.
Yes, in the direction of "Who else sees what I see?" -BTW, I'm not joking with the vote this time.
And here it is. The reasoning is valid but now I'd love to hear more about your other suspects.
KCC is still neutral for me. I like her reasoning but I need to see more.
In an effort to avoid going through the whole KCC-CF ordeal, I'm going to discuss some highlights from the conversation.
KCC has now provided her opinion. It was different then any random guesses that were thrown out and it was quite logical. Do you feel differently at this point? (I'm sure I'll see an answer as I get to today's posts...)
Second Bold - This seems strange to me. You argue that Manders was coming at you early and then agree that you defended yourself too much. Which is it?
Why do you post that out every post? We get it. You're trying to convince us that you are town.
What's your read now?
I do believe that this happened. I was split between the two of you and based on the conversation that occured I could've gone either way, but I wouldn't have put you both on the same team either scum or town. I can say that this is changing.
I feel this is a valid concern. We want fence sitters to talk, otherwise we can't draw conclusions, however, the way it occured felt like active coaching.
Seriously, EVERY POST you have a statement like this. That is shady. Like you are trying to hint subliminally that you're town.
ChickenFish is leaning scum.
There you have it.
And here is a nice, simple list for any TL/DR's we have here:
Scum (in no particular order)
ChickenFish
Gamora
BattleMaster
Neutral:
MandersHex
Gigas 1
KCC
Town:
Arnnaria
Zenjo
Foxlet
Need more info:
Wheat_Grinder
Miracule
Because I wanted it out in the open. For most people fence-sitting is a scum tell. Because they don't want to commit to a person to go after and get caught in the maelstrom to follow.
Fence-sitting is just my playstyle. It's my lifestyle. I'm very bad at spotting what somebody did "wrong" and I see what people are doing "right". I would be 99.99% better at this game if all I had to figure out were town tells.
But I don't, I have to figure out who the scum are. And literally, this is the inexperience talking, because I have NEVER played scum in an online game. I don't know what are scum tells because I've never had to "avoid detection."
If you look at the Star Trek mafia, I claimed Survivor because I was getting some pressure from a few of the people. I did this because I thought it was my only way out. Eventually, a vig decided to shoot me and my cover was blown.
But Serial Killer seems like such a different role than Scum. I don't know if the Scum have daytalk, but I imagine they do and are plotting every devious ways to get a mislynch day one. I've never been in that boat, plotting with OTHER people against the town. So I'm very bad at reading that.
I started using the phrase "duly noted" when I was a Water Cooler Talk mod. To me it means I agree with your outcome, even though I don't agree with all the steps it took you to get there. Would you prefer if I say "I concure", the two are basically synonymous with me.
Yes this post more than suffices. And no, I haven't done much scum hunting up until this point. I avoid confrontations until I need information. Which is why I placed the vote on you (even though I didn't realize at the time that you had two other votes on you). It wasn't until I got this clarification that you only needed 4 more that I rescinded my vote. However, I'm glad I did because this wall of text is the best post that has been given on various alignments of people thus far.
The "Zenjo:" part was that I was directly talking to Zenjo. Nothing more, nothing less.
If you strung up two or three people, and only two or three people, I would've been suspicious. That's why I asked you to provide "2-3" reads. I wanted to see if you'd take the bait and just scum hang a couple townies. But now that you've responded to everyone in spades, I think you've shifted to neutral in my eyes.
@Manders. the bolded section was where it was mentioned about Anarria`s previous play.
@Eron, you might have have missed this post when you say I backtracked on that line of thought. Which is weird since it came just 3 posts after the other one you quoted.
Sidenote: the last couple days have been unexpectedly busy. I`m working on getting caught up and being more active in this game again.
Just so we are on the same page - You want other people to provide "concrete opinions" with "less wiggle room" and when confronted and asked for a list of your own, you refuse? Sounds town to me.
Read it twice as a matter of fact!
Now...gonna work on catching up, responding...all that good shtuff.
Chickenfish seems way too defensive and what really bugs me is how he kept on demanding a reason for KCC's vote on him. So, I wouldn't say additional opinions. More like re-evaluated opinions. I did order the people in my list and he is at the bottom of the leaning scum section.
Battlemasters only given reason for targeting KCC was...
It just seems to me that half of his posts are about KCC not having helpful posts.
I'll post a reply below the cut, to help with clutter
Reading back, I have to admit, disruption wasn't the best word to describe this. As with Eron, I just found the finger pointing early in the game (with no actual scum hunting, IMO) rather pointless and distasteful. It gave me a rather poor opinion of you.
I understand the time crunch (I have way too much on my plate at the moment) It's why I've mostly stuck with a FoS list and have not voted on anyone at this time.
This *could* have just been in because we were nearing the end of RVS shenanigans, but it didn't feel that way to me.
Best way to learn, is do it (participate in a game) and read. I gotten a few tips from friends, but some from reading the excellent info on the forum and wiki. I also have read finished Mafia games looking for how people play....when I had more spare time.
My point here is, you were jumping on KCC, but Eron was doing the same thing.
However you like to present it, whether it is in cute little lists with bullet points, smilies or quote pyramids, I think EVERYONE will be pressured to fork over some sort of read.
Arnarria has been posting often but a lot of it is chatter. It has however moved the discussion and brought up some new points as well. Your posts have been fewer and have done less to "contribute to the group" overall (compared to Arnarria's).
Having said all that! I would in no way vote for you at this state in the game. I realize that my suspicions are weak, and based on too few posts of yours at the moment. I just wanted to explain myself a bit better.
After thinking on this awhile the unwillingness to provide reads when asked point blank is really bugging me. Vote: Gamora
I was asked by Arnnaria today and felt obliged. He did the same when asked by Manders. Foxlet, Manders and KCC all provided additional reasoning as they stated they would.
I'll post tomorrow night, guys.
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I like your reads and comments (even if I don't always agree with them), but you do bring up several good points for people to think and discuss. I'm REALLY tired at the moment, so wanted to at least comment on my portion.
I promise I will get more out tomorrow. Everyone has been putting out some excellent posts I'd like to comment on!
<shrugs> I do sometimes lurk on the thread for a little while just to see if anything comes up that I want to jump on quickly...Not to mention that just thinking, editing, and typing a post can frequently take longer than it should.
I'm a frequently a slow thinker, when I have the time of course I'd rather make 10 posts that are (mostly) thoughtful and decent (yeah I have my fluff ones) instead of 20+ that are...sub par
It was my original FoS only list just because everyone else I couldn't really a read on at the time....Not that I'm saying I can get a great read on everyone now, but it's still better than before due to the increased posting
I'm working on another one as people have been posting more, that includes neutrals and towns as well.
Those first quotes are taken out of context. They're followup statements demonstrating why I thought the voting style wasn't helpful, not direct requests for explanation.
The next bit - totally irrelevant that nobody made a valid suggestion. It doesn't mean KCC wasn't attempting to get one.
The last bit - I've already explained that the reaction was to the method, not the vote. I realise that you had a lot of catching up to do, but this really looks like you're intentionally misinterpreting things and taking them out of context (giving you the benefit of the doubt that you wouldn't have posted accusation without having done solid reasoning of the whole situation)
While it is the mafia’s job to worry about appearances, it’s also a scum-suspected towny’s job to remove suspicion so that conversation doesn’t take a wrong turn. As such, ‘naturally going about your business’ should involve that honest defense you mention, not blatantly ignoring a challenge in logic like you did for quite some time.
I disagree entirely. Seeing it as a scum tell is only the beginning. Has anybody ever lynched because of a vague scum tell that could also be suboptimal play by a newer player? If I’ve got a scum tell on somebody, I want them to talk as much as possible so that I can pick holes in their logic and behavior.
Quote + response 1: I appreciate it was early game, but surely it’s evident that it’s a personality thing by now? I’ll admit I wasn’t sure how to approach getting back into my first game for about a year so I just went full throttle, but I don’t think it was nervousness as such…
Quote + response 2: This really is a bit of a stretch. Obviously I was using the phrase to mean ‘done something to make you suspect I’m scum’ rather than ‘oh whoops you know I’m scum now’. Even if you don’t respect my playstyle, surely you don’t genuinely believe I’d be that dumb? Clutching at straws…
Quote + response 3: This is a read? Did you read the sentence before my FoS? “As such, my initial joke-vote actually has a reason to stay on its recipient, so I'll leave it where it is.” Me saying an FoS isn’t that different to a vote early is clearly a statement that early votes aren’t severe so both are valid ways of expressing suspicion. With a vote already on a player I had some suspicions about, rather than unvote them and vote my new suspicion, I just FoSed my new suspicion. You’ve pointed out a consistency and tried to spin it as an inconsistency.
If this is the supposed tell you were hiding, I now genuinely believe that you were hoping somebody else would come up with a better argument for you.
Unvote, Vote KittyCupCake
I missed the bit where KCC’s response swere ‘quite logical’. I think for a while they were ‘as expected’, but see above as to my change of heart.
Why is it that “this might be your style” hasn’t turned into “this is your style” by now??? Also I realise the bolded sentence is very awkwardly worded, but it was a combination of tiredness + phone using. I hope it’s obvious that the specific sentence was awkward phrasing due to lack of rereading, not because I wanted to drive a lame argument home.
You’re going to have to explain your bit after ‘second bold’. There’s no second bold in the post, and your comment doesn’t make sense as a suspicion to me. Manders was coming at me and I defended myself? Isn’t that the natural order?
This feels like a misinterpretation to me, but as opposed to my criticism of KCC, it doesn’t seem as deliberate, as this is easy to misinterpret if you’ve got your eye on me. The bit you’ve bolded is a logical qualifier. In response to observation that me not liking the conversation was a bad sign, I pointed out that as a towny it also wasn’t in my interest. I was debunking the argument, not pleading my towny case.
…
A few of my posts you agree with or ask the KCC question, as answered above
…
Could you please clarify what exactly bugs you about it? I’m not trying to subliminally hint I’m town, I’m saying things as a towny. If that bugs you, it’s because other things have gotten to you (obviously) and so you’re reading pro-town things I say as non-genuine. That has almost nothing to do with the specific bolded sentence.
Now onto your stuff about other people:
The majority of your comments about Manders appear to be that she’s inconsistent with the way she scrutinises, but then you put her as ‘leaning town’ for valid points? With lots of her ‘big’ posts being vague observations rather than specific concern, what are these extremely valid points that have made you decide she’s leaning town rather than the null you almost settle on, or even slightly scummy for the vast inconsistency you’ve observed? And why does the extreme inconsistency not outweigh these valid points, when with me you for what has been the crux of most of my posts, but my manner is a bit shady? (Not accusing you of foul play – genuinely interested)
Once again, your summary appears to be largely criticizing, but you go with leaning town. Your justification is that ‘he’s stepped up his game’, but this combined with the fact that you think a handful of posts need clarification is surely a null tell at best. Somebody who was told to step up their game because they looked scummy did step up their game, and it’s a town read? Total null.
You seem easily appeased on this front. All I’m seeing Zenjo do in the bits you’ve posted is reiterate things other they’ve said as though they’re his (did we determine Zenjo’s sex?). Prime example:
“Ok, I think I found something”? Must’ve been hard. /sarcasm.
EVERYBODY had ‘found’ this, and it had been discussed at length.
As for the second bit, It had also been discussed at length with me justifying my position before Zenjo’s post. How is it even remotely valid scumhunting FoSing me for a bunch of questions to which I’d already responded? If you didn’t like my response, that’s a different story. While it’s an immediate attempt at scum hunting, it’s a very poor one. I was going to get to this later, but it appears I already have.
FoS: Zenjo
How do you (and others, if they’ve made it this far) feel about my interpretation of KCC’s ‘reasoning’?
I hope I accurately represented your post, Eron. Bolding withing quotes withing quotes is doing my head in.
At the moment I have no particularly strong town reads, but my list looks like this:
Eron – leaning town. While I’d like clarification/opinions on my comments on the big post, intentions of the big post seem good.
BattleMaster, Zenjo – leaning scum, but this is largely due to infrequency of posts. They haven’t said heaps, but what they have is giving me the feeling that they’re simply trying to appear to contribute. Zenjo a bit more suss than BM for this reason.
Manders – leaning scum for what I discussed above. Ruthless (the seemingly good way) in your hunting, but inconsistent in your treatment of people. This big positive and big negative make it really hard for me to place you, but the glossing over of the obvious logic regarding KCC's style puts you on the scum side of things for now.
KCC, Gamora – Top of my list, for reasons already explained.
Arnnaria – neutral as also explained above. Initial quietness but then attempting to be more involved after prompting can be scum doing what he’s told is less scummy, or newish town doing what he’s told is less scummy.
Everyone else – neutral because posts a brief and few. Tend to have good points, but also tend to be points that have already begun to be covered. Excited to hear from Foxlet, as these brief posts seem to have the best insight of the neutrals.
I'm male.
Also, "I think I found something", was a continuation of this post. And, btw, my first read on a mafia game ever. Not to mention I felt pressured to post something by Eron in post 109/110.
Wheat Grinder is the only person I see who expressed the same concern as me before my post. EVERYBODY found this?
My main point with this second part is that you kept asking for an explanation of her vote.
In these posts you do question KCC's methods which I like. But you also flat out ask for her reasons for voting you. I can see asking once, but three times?
As for KCC's reasoning for voting you, I think it's valid, but rather weak.
While the rest of this analysis was just there to explain the reasons for my initial vote, this was the only part that I really wanted you to address to at this point. -And you haven't.
I had no problem with you leaving your vote and FOSing a new suspect. My issue here is that you defended Arn's post, saying that it read naturally to you as part of the conversation, and then you placed suspicion on him anyway.
I never said it was some huge tell. We were in the early game, and it was something for me to look into. -In fact, the only reason I even approached it the way I did is because The FOS wasn't a strong tell, and because of that it likely wouldn't have resulted in much discussion. And that wasn't helpful to me because I wanted you to be under the spotlight for a bit...
I agree. I don't think it was nervousness, and therefore I don't think it's a scum tell. But, the best way for me to figure that out was to quickly put a lot of attention on you and see if you crack. And you didn't. And while I'd still like more of a response to point 3, I'm otherwise happy to move on now. Especially since someone should be back soon.
It was only on page six, and the game was in a weird transitioning-out-of-RVS. I'm not too bothered by the vote without explanation. The first thing I thought when she did that was "oh, shes going to try to stir things up a bit". And it worked, it sparked a lengthy conversation between the two of you. It also made people take sides to some extent. All of these things, while maybe not helpful now, (since the reasoning she gave was admittedly weak), later on everything that was said about this interaction can be used as evidence. Would you have preferred more time durdling about in RVS?
So basically, you're right, her reasons for the vote were not very strong at all. Her reasoning for not telling the reasons were perfectly justified.
Anyone want to give a quick rundown for me?
You didn't miss much. There has been a bunch of finger pointing, a bunch of lists, arguing over whether said lists are effective in this game. But no one has gotten over 4 votes. People are finally starting to discuss seriously how they feel about one another, but this hasn't led to any sort of wagon on definitive proof that Person X is scum.
It's been rather civil for a mafia game so far.
Things that strike me:
I really don't like that.
Now that I know you're TFF, I accept it a little bit more for the first, and I'm satisfied with your replies for the second.
Not sure if coaching or not. If at any point Arnnaria flips scum, it'll look bad on you.
I'm not liking your play so far but I'm not sure you're scum.
As of post 120, I like Chickenfish for scum, Arnnaria and Gamora leaning so. Leaning town on KCC and Foxlet.
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I know I promised everyone some more content today but, it's been a crappy day. I'll work on it in the morning and break it up through the day.
I specifically wanted to get more information out on Gamora, Arnnarnia, and Chicken.
I did have a small read on Zen and Miracule that I wanted to add as well.
P.S. @ Miracule...I'm a girl
Congratulations.
I'm gonna be doing a re-read and posting some new content tonight, hopefully.
I've already addressed this in my previous response to Miracule:
I appreciate that you may be new and feeling pressured, but you can agree and elaborate on what people have already said rather than 'finding it' as your own.
KCC: I appreciate what seems like a big change of heart from you - lots of cool logic that's easy to agree with. However, my vote stays where it is due to what I think is the perfectly justified paranoia that comes with an observed change of heart.
As for a response to the issue you have - I wasn't defending Arnnaria, I was reasoning out loud. I was saying I didn't necessarily think the specific issue Gamora had with it was a scum tell, but then go on to say I don't think the conversation that was taking place was doing much for anyone, then give the FoS. I think that's fairly evident from the post.
Yes, but Wheat Grinder is the only one besides me that mentions that it was a joke vote you were being overly defensive about. Also, I didn't catch that he said that until you made me go back and search for people who also said that. Also because he used the term RVS. Speaking of which, what does RVS stand for? I understand that its the first stage where there are joke votes. Random Votes and Silliness?
I don't know if you will believe me, but I said what I found by myself.
Ok, think about it this way. I'm taking notes on notepad as I'm reading through all the posts. Which comes first, your post or the other people's post saying your post is way too defensive.
All I'm doing is saying why I'm suspicious of you. I really don't care who said what first, what matters to me is whether or not I think the reasoning behind it is valid.
I understand that they're followup statements, but at the same time you did ask for an explanation three times. If you were questioning the reasoning behind it, you could have just as easily only said "this is silly and pointless until you give reasoning" instead of "this is silly and pointless, please give reasoning". There is a subtle difference, but it's there. I think it's only more scummy of you to pass this off as not asking for reasoning at all or not meaning it, which is worse.
My vote is leaning strongly towards you right now, ChickenFish.
Right, and she said she would provide it later. This is a valid response to a request for elaboration.
Then your mind is flawed. Seriously, this is how Mafia works. You would have hated playing with Chamber, from what I've heard. That guy never provided reasons, prefering for people to make their own decisions. Annoying, yes, but a valid strategy, and Chamber was one of the best.
IF someone had provided the reasoning that she provided to where all she could say was, "Yep, that was it," I wouldn't have cared. Why? It's one read! There will be plenty more in the spanse of the game to analyze.
No, it's not a refusal. Refusal is (and only is) stating, "No, I'm not going to do that, not now or ever." She has never once stated this, and your insistance to continuously state that she pretty much has is just terrible.
The tactic = a vote, dude. This is just ridiculous.
You are extremely concerned with your image. It has oozed out of every goddamn post you've made. This is a classic scumtell.
You are the only one who's said, "If Arnnaria is town, then KCC is scum". Ergo, you're the one that created the dichotomy in the first place.
Yeah, he ignored me. I'm not happy.
No, his reaction was acceptable. Eron is acting kinda like Chicken Little up in here, and I can understand where Gamora came from.
You jumping at the opportunity to vote him, however...
Even dead townies can be good for the town.
No, it totally doesn't.
LOL interest denied.
Oh, so you're not a noob? Awesome.
As I said, this is due to us being friends IRL. You said, "Yeah, but that shouldn't affect the game."
Why?
1) Why would I be against you actually doing something?
2) Why do you care if I am for against something, anyway? Like, so much so as to be so vocal about it?
She's a girl. There's 3 of us ITT.
Who is splitting them as town/scum?
Good observations that other people have already said time and time again.
What does this mean to you?
Again, what does this mean to you?
I look forward to finding out.
Let me tell you something about me. I love my friends. Very much. And I show it. I don't care if they're on my team or not, I'm going to be friendly to them. This is why interactions between me and my friends (most notably so Iso and Seppel) cannot be analyzed. However, this will not stop me from going head to head with any of them if I decipher that they are scum, which has happened.
So, you're admitting to being scum, then?
Cause you said that if one of you is town, the other is scum.
Thanks for doing that. Unvote Vote: Chickenfish
How many times are you going to FoS him before you give in and vote?
You're the only one that's said "Overexplaining is how Chickenfish plays". Self-meta is nowhere near as worthy as others providing the meta.
Meaning, because others have said this about KCC and not she herself, it means more than you saying you overexplain in game.
Also, for me, it's not that you overexplain. Plenty of people. You have shown clear signs of being extremely concerned with your image.
You should have responded to everything else I said instead.
If he was a noob, I'd say you have a point. But he's not. So, no, that earns no town points from me.
Good, cause he can explain it better than I can.
@ Fazzur!!
I see absolutely no reason Chickenfish's opinion should matter this much to you.
I'll have to review their posts again, but I'm pretty damn sure both of them have provided reads.
Arnnaria and Chickenfish are scum.
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I was referring to Eron. Eron said he was against lists. That "you" is directed toward Eron, not you Manders.
I agree. I'm letting other people's opinions force my thinking. I'll work to correct that. It just seems, everyone is so much more eloquent than I am when expressing their views.
Starting again.
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Again it is because you are talking in circles. You address the same thing multiple times. If you weren't doing this, every post wouldn't have to be so long.
So are you denying that the majority of your posts don't have some sort of qualifier? Because they do. Someone who is town does not need to expressly find a way to slip it in to every post.
See above.
Because Manders has been scum hunting and all you have done is defended your self. I agree with some of your defense (not all, clearly) but I agree with some of Manders scum hunting. When looking at the two in a vaccuum, I feel the scumhunter leans town and the person on defense constantly (and not always a valid defense) leans scum.
Largely critical is an over statement. Sure there were negative points, some very negative, but for the most part, I feel at this point Arnnaria's explanations have been good enough. I also agreed with him on a few points. That has to count for something.
It's more than some have done.
I think you got the gist of it.
I will say that I think KCC's reasoning was weak, but valid. I really need to go back and reread all the interactions though, because you have had significantly more posts regarding the situation than she.
I'm inclined to disagree, as long as reasoning is given with the list. It helps create more discussion. If there isn't any reasoning, though, it's not helpful and I generally agree. I personally like people to know where I stand on everyone.
I really don't like that at all, it smells strongly of coaching. I've got you as scum.
I did, and you are solidly town in my books now. Your reads mirror mine pretty strongly.
My that glass house looks indefensible against the stones you're throwing.
Bluh that's terrible.
I think you should use IE for its one true purpose: To download Firefox or Chrome.
---
So then, my current T/S list:
Town
MandersHex: Plenty of scumhunting, and reads similar to mine.
Zenjo: Town-tells everywhere, along with good scum-hunting.
Foxlet: Town-telling like crazy.
Leaning Town
Gamora: Has said some stuff I don't like, and Arnnaria tried to tie himself to him, but he's seemed townier lately.
Gigas1: I agree with a lot said in his post, but I'd love to see more.
EronTheRelentless: Tons of effort. However, I've seen a few things I don't like here and there, so not completely cleared to me.
KittyCupCake: TBH I'm terrible at reading you, but you don't seem too scummy and Manders vouched for you.
Neutral
Miracule: Needs more posts.
Scum
Arnnaria: So much I don't like. So much.
Chickenfish: Keeps posting very oddly, and I don't like it. I don't really like lynching him today, though, because he at least has been posting quite a bit.
Battlemaster: Posts very little, and what he does I disagree with almost completely.
Vote: Battlemaster
I think Battlemaster is the scummiest of the three, but I'll happily vote Arnnaria, and somewhat less happily vote Chickenfish.
As Eron mentioned, in reference to the first quote. I would find it MORE worrisome if he left himself out of that sentence. I know several of us are new to the game and still finding our way.
That being said, I thought the general idea of Mafia was to sway each other Scum obviously want you to vote for townies, and town want to hunt down scum. It doesn't give anyone the right to be bullied, it also doesn't give anyone the right to not do their own reads.
Ugh, I sound like a school teacher! If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding!
People can be swayed, but if you are intelligent, you should do your own homework based on what people are saying.
Overall I like your reads, they seem thoughtful and put together (doing your homework, you could say). I bolded the parts that stuck out about some of your posts.
It was basically what I was referring to above in the post Eron made about being swayed. Anyone of us can make all sorts of shenanigans posts, but hopefully it should really just make you go back and make you draw your own your OWN conclusions instead of blindly following someone else. This is where I'm at with my scum lists and whatnot. It's why I wanted to get some new opinions out for everyone to hash out
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Well, that is interesting.
Can we get a vote count also, Iso?
Arnnaria (1): Zenjo
Gamora (1): EronTheRelentless
Miracule (1): Battlemaster
Chickenfish (2): KittyCupCake, MandersHex
EronTheRelentless (2): Gamora, Gigas1
KittyCupCake (1): Chickenfish
Battlemaster (1): Wheat_Grinder
With 12 alive, it is 7 to lynch.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You want a case? You've got one, spoilered for convenience, even:
Why? Do scum always OMGUS? It's only scummy to OMGUS, not townie to not OMGUS.
No explanation?
Quite a disagreeable list; throwing yourself in with Chicken isn't helping you at all.
Also what scummy things has KCC done besides say he (she? I've forgotten, sorry) will withhold his reads until a later time?
Noob card.
Now KCC is neutral. You criticize Eron and Battlemaster for not scumhunting, and yet you aren't scumhunting very hard either.
This is the big one. You are taking hints from another scummy player. What are we supposed to see except that you two are scumbuddies?
Flopping your vote out there and blatantly saying it's pressure so that it's worthless (though to be fair I've seen you do it as town and I've also done it myself as town).
Why are you afraid when he was only on L-4?
Bolded: Sounds reminiscent of a certain scumlist you made.
As a whole: That's not really a trap.
Oh well. Unvote, Vote: Arnnaria
I figure I'll let his replacement have a little time to get situated.
I jumped to her defense. What do you think of that?
Good observation.
No one's doing that, Mr. Tiny. Go find me some blood. I'm thirsty.
Truer words were never spoken. Although, sometimes, people just never believe otherwise, and town gets lynched (or modkilled for quoting Seppel, but eh ;)). Luckily, sometimes the death of a townie is exactly what is needed in order to locate the actual scum.
Now that I've shown how he's, twice now, FoS'd Arnnaria, but never voted him, what do you think?
Why do you care if there's 3 votes on someone you believe to be scum?
Seppel V.2: you need to work on your lists.
He was the one that made the post beforehand (which I have shown what post that was now) that pinged my scumdar.
Because I do not believe Foxlet to be scum.
That's irrelevant in this case. He's saying that there's an expressed dichotomy of one of them has to be town and the other scum. I've seen no one but him state that.
From the game.
I keep my promises. It may take me longer than I intended, but I do.
I agree, but yes, he's made more than one. I'll highlight them when/if I decided to PBPA him.
I'm not focused on him.
Forgiven, but not forgotten.
You were very vocal as to your dislike of me asking him for a list, so far as to state it's not enough to call the :mob:. (Sorry, I HAD to use that new smilie. :D) You were definitely defending him. How can you say you don't think you have?
For the record, even my best friends cannot read me. (For instance, in Seppel's recent game that he hosted, I was town, came under pressure D1, and the whole time I fought for my life, he was reading me as ScumManders...knowing damn good and well I was town. :D)
I'd be more worried if you did have a concrete read on me atm.
Your post was #95 and that post was #85. You're clear of that. Thank you.
This post was made at 9:58.
...demanding? I wouldn't go that far. Why did you?
What does that mean to you?
You misunderstand. My friendship with her has absolutely nothing to do with my read of her. I have played in many, many games with her. Her playstyle is quite different depending on whether she's town or scum. Everything I'm seeing here points towards town. That doesn't mean I'm not still watching her to see if I've interpreted incorrectly, mind you. Just that, at the moment, I'm content she is town.
It's still early.
LAL
Why don't you like that?
The first part was directed @ Arnnaria:
Is he scum or not?
Looking forward to it.
I'd prefer you address what I said to you. All of it.
This = defending. Why are you trying to pass off that it doesn't?
Random Voting Stage
So, why didn't you vote for him?
Ok, great. Still answer it.
Could you be more self-conscious of how you appear?
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