MTG Salvation

Both Maniac and Tom have replacement triggers (abilities in the form "... Instead ..."). When any effect causes you to draw a card while your library has no cards in it, both replacement effects are invoked and you are free to stack them in the order of your choosing (obviously having Maniac's effect on top). If Maniac replaced the *loss* rather than the *draw* there would be an issue (work-aroundable but an issue still) but this is not the case.

Edit: Ninja'd! Thanks Bob ^^

Thanks Bob, appreciate the help with this one.

The small rocks are out; live and learn.

I am attempting to fit High Tide into the deck and so add the possibility of infinite mana as a Plan B. So far I am rather happy with the results, if not my own play. The list I'm going to be trying tonight is:




Likely subbing in Copy Artifact and Phyrexian Metamorph by my mood.

Highly update list in the OP, if anyone wants to take a look. I'll be re-writing the card-by-card description over the next couple days and some discussion would certainly help my thought process!

*CN*,
Really enjoying this thread/idea/deck. Very much interested in your revisions.

Thanks for sharing with us.

Thanks Kat!

I saw you were working on a Tom list for you mono-color deck collection. How's that going?

Major-although-mostly-superficial edits today. Mentions of other running the deck starting to circulate online, although I have yet to see it myself. Would love to hear your stories!

Hey *CN*,
I haven't had a chance to use the deck yet - the EDH scene by me is light. I'm hoping to have a chance to try it out next week. I'll definitely give you feedback then.

By the way, why not use Timetwister?

Quote from *CN*

Thanks Kat!

I saw you were working on a Tom list for you mono-color deck collection. How's that going?

Major-although-mostly-superficial edits today. Mentions of other running the deck starting to circulate online, although I have yet to see it myself. Would love to hear your stories!

Quote from trancekat

Hey *CN*,
I haven't had a chance to use the deck yet - the EDH scene by me is light. I'm hoping to have a chance to try it out next week. I'll definitely give you feedback then.

By the way, why not use Timetwister?

Likely the $200 price tag attached to it. Just a guess though but that is usually the reason.

Whoops.. I missed it. It's already there. I blame being sick

What about Braingeyser... seems like a better Jace's Enginuity.

It may indeed be worth testing but Braingeyser does nothing when cast through Dream Halls and is too expensive to play nice with finite-mana High Tide. One you go infinite, it's obviously mighty convenient but no better than Jace's Ingenuity as guaranteeing a win (ie both do an excellent job of it). My gut feeling is that it is a win-more-ish card with a big draw back in a common situation, so not worth running.

Timetwister is indeed in and can be read about in the now complete-once-more primer. Comments and criticism still heartily desired folks!

Lessons from December:

Knowledge Pool is by far the least live draw in the deck, and Tef isn't much better. The lock has never been the fastest route to victory, has never been a *necessary* route to victory, and just isn't worth the two slots.

Ultimately, though, I'm still not comfortable just dying (or taking a 30 minute turn) because a single piece of my win condition was exiled. I briefly considered returning to Laboratory Maniac, but it still strikes me as too much of a dead draw so I'm finally caving to the lure of infinite mana. My initial instinct was Prosperity but then I discovered Minds Aglow which seems much better pre-combo.

It also seems like High tide could benefit from at least one more untapper, and since I found one of the best signals that Tide is the way to go is a Snapcaster in the opening hand I'm initially trying Snap*. Turnabout is also looking for a spot; if Snap works out then it will most likely come in for Rhystic Study. The OP will be updated when I decide.

*(Tide, Snapcaster for Tide, Snap for Snapcaster, Snapcaster for Snap, Snap for Snapcaster, Snapcaster for X... seems good)

---

I continue to hear stories online of other Tom/Halls decks. Would really love to hear about your experiences!

Hey CN..
I've been thinking about this deck and you greater focus on infinite mana.

What are your thoughts on this:

Use shared fate with an X spell like geyser or stroke to exile all libraries?

Hey *CN*,
Are you still running this deck?

I took it for a spin yesterday against one of my own other decks (a friend piloted it). Against Azusa it felt like I was relying on my opponent's poor draw to win.

I definitely felt fragile. KP and Tef were in hand and I did not see them as a win con since my opponent had a Sundering Titan in play as well as Azusa. They don't need to cast anymore spell when all I have is Tom and Snappy.

If my opponent krosan grip'ed Halls, I would have been SOL. When I went "off" it worked, but that was because of Tef preventing my opponent from casting. Again, it felt fragile.

I don't have any suggestions on improvements yet. I'm sure it plays differently in a multiplayer game too. Would love to know if you've been keeping up with this deck.

I made a few changes -

Added Brain Freeze, Sensei's Divining Top, Future Sight Mill combo, as well as Quest for Ancient Secrets for fear of tormod's crypt. Also added an extra land (Cephalid Coliseum). Finally changed some of the draw for Tezzy's Gambit

Feedback is requested and welcomed.



3/18/2012 Change
-Trickbind
-Myojin of Seeing Winds
-Opportunity
-Shrine of Piercing Vision
-Knowledge Pool
-Candelabra of Tawnos

+Tezzeret's Gambit
+Sensei's Divining Top
+Cephalid Coliseum
+Brain Freeze
+Future Sight
+Quest for Ancient Secrets

3/20/2012
-Quest for Ancient Secrets
-Tezzeret's Gambit
-Rush of Knowledge

+Trickbind
+Myojin of Seeing Winds
+Shrine of Piercing Vision

I'm not playing much Cockatrice at all, atm, and haven't put the deck through its paces in awhile. I wish I were still working on the build, but my overarching discontent with the state of the competitive multiplayer community makes it tough.

First off, I'll point out that the deck has no hope in duels: it is neither consistent enough for the fair ban lists or broken enough for the unfair ones and in general just not built to take a traditional beatdown or control roll. I really wouldn't trust your playtest results there.

That being said, I don't understand why you felt having pool*/teff against a single creature (and possible support) was a bad position. You likely have *at least* two more turns to go off against Sundering Titan and board v. what you would have against an actively ramping Azusa. Honestly, if that's not enough, then you're doing something wrong.

*I have stopped playing Halls - see the 38th post of this thread - but that's because I felt Tef was almost always good enough on his own.

Taking out Trickbind for Quest to "answer Crypt" seems really odd to me. Trickbind answers Crypt. And beats worldgorger. And stalls Sharuum. And punishes Arcum.... and is utterly lolzy against Norin.

I can guarantee you that Shrine of Piercing Vision is better than Impulse. I personally wouldn't cut either, but if you do, Shrine is not first choice.

Similarly, Myojin is the best card in the category of "mid-combo draw"; I'd drop Meditate, Ideas Unbound, and especially Rush of Knowledge before Myo.

Will try to have a more in depth discussion when I get some real time to post >>

Quote from *CN*

I'm not playing much Cockatrice at all, atm, and haven't put the deck through its paces in awhile. I wish I were still working on the build, but my overarching discontent with the state of the competitive multiplayer community makes it tough.

I'm sorry you haven't had fun playing. If it's any consolation, I have given up on competitive in my area for many reasons (a lot of cheating being a big factor).

Quote from *CN*

First off, I'll point out that the deck has no hope in duels: it is neither consistent enough for the fair ban lists or broken enough for the unfair ones and in general just not built to take a traditional beatdown or control roll. I really wouldn't trust your playtest results there.

Agreed; I have been hoping to play this in multiplayer and fly under the radar until I go off in one turn. I've gotten lucky in the 2 one on one games I played (Azusa and Norin), but that's just it - luck.

Quote from *CN*

That being said, I don't understand why you felt having pool*/teff against a single creature (and possible support) was a bad position. You likely have *at least* two more turns to go off against Sundering Titan and board v. what you would have against an actively ramping Azusa. Honestly, if that's not enough, then you're doing something wrong.

If I locked out Azusa from playing spells, it would not have really helped me. There's nothing in the deck (either one) that could get rid of a Titan (and I had already taken 2 hits from it). I probably misplayed, but in the end, locking my opponent from casting would have done nothing to stop the titan from crashing into me.

Quote from *CN*

*I have stopped playing Halls - see the 38th post of this thread - but that's because I felt Tef was almost always good enough on his own.

Are you running a Tef list now?

Quote from *CN*

Taking out Trickbind for Quest to "answer Crypt" seems really odd to me. Trickbind answers Crypt. And beats worldgorger. And stalls Sharuum. And punishes Arcum.... and is utterly lolzy against Norin.

I can guarantee you that Shrine of Piercing Vision is better than Impulse. I personally wouldn't cut either, but if you do, Shrine is not first choice.

Similarly, Myojin is the best card in the category of "mid-combo draw"; I'd drop Meditate, Ideas Unbound, and especially Rush of Knowledge before Myo.

Will try to have a more in depth discussion when I get some real time to post >>

This is why I don't build decks.. I'm terrible at it. Thanks for the very useful feedback. I'll rearrange the deck to add in those cards. I hope to be able to use the brain freeze combo still as that gives the deck an alt wincon.

Thanks for your reply!

I love this deck concept, though it seems beyond my own level of skill/expertise to pilot effectively.

I do have a suggestion, though: Swap out Trinket Mage for Dizzy Spell. You have no way to abuse the fact that the Mage is a creature other than Teferi, and the only :0mana:-mana artifact you have to fetch is Mana Crypt. Those would seem to be very minor tradeoffs in exchange for the ability to fetch non-artifact one-mana spells, including the all-important High Tide. And you never know, maybe that -3/-0 will save your life someday.

Looks like Omniscience is a good potential addition to the deck! Now what to cut...

The current list.. Considering Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and Omniscience

Teferi's Puzzle Box is a house in my build, I have won a few games with Beacon of Tomorrows the box and the frog in play. Also, Possessed Portal is devastating.

Quote from AequitasKiller

Teferi's Puzzle Box is a house in my build, I have won a few games with Beacon of Tomorrows the box and the frog in play. Also, Possessed Portal is devastating.

Wow! I didnt know anyone else still ran this type of deck. Agreed on the puzzle box. Whats your deck list look like?

I'll try to sort it better later, but this is the list I'm running.