For me, it's irrelevant that it's on Gigas. I dislike lurker hunting, period, especially on the first day. If Day 2 or 3 comes along, goes for several weeks, and he's still lurking like a champ, then we can talk.
You've been rubbing me the wrong way for awhile now, iirc. But the fact that you were told not to go after lurkers over a week ago, yet you come back from lurking yourself, and go after a lurker? Ridiculous.
It's interesting that you would spin it that way since I posted TWICE that I would be V/LA. You would have seen it if you weren't trying to get a lynch on anyone that is convenient at the moment.
It's interesting that you would spin it that way since I posted TWICE that I would be V/LA. You would have seen it if you weren't trying to get a lynch on anyone that is convenient at the moment.
For me, it's irrelevant that it's on Gigas. I dislike lurker hunting, period, especially on the first day. If Day 2 or 3 comes along, goes for several weeks, and he's still lurking like a champ, then we can talk.
You've been rubbing me the wrong way for awhile now, iirc. But the fact that you were told not to go after lurkers over a week ago, yet you come back from lurking yourself, and go after a lurker? Ridiculous.
And the fact that I was "told not to"... Who on this forum is my parent? I see a connection, I think I can pursue it. The fact that you are opposed to the IDEA so strongly is a tell for me. What is the harm in discussing it? You are attempting to shut this conversation down as soon as you can by throwing a vote out there for me. Why defend it so hard if you are open to anyone being scum at any time?
Foxlet lives! And Gamora's replacement is hopefully happening, yeah...
This could be the new information we need.
Still interested to hear people's thoughts on my proposed voting system, but it seems it can wait.
I think we need to analyze the reactions of both Wheat and Manders to the simple observation that I made. This is way to strong a reaction to be nothing.
It's not a reaction to nothing, otherwise I wouldn't be reacting.
I know Chicken did it, and I think it happened another time earlier as well, but don't feel like looking for it. In any case, twice in a row feels kinda weird.
I know Chicken did it, and I think it happened another time earlier as well, but don't feel like looking for it. In any case, twice in a row feels kinda weird.
Do you think the scum are doing it on purpose to make you look scummy?
Man, why do people I suspect keep jumping on wagons right behind me?
It's hardly a wagon if they put the second vote on somebody when it's 7 to lynch, especially if they were expressing similar suspicions around the same time, if not before, you brought them up. This really seems to me like an attempt to discredit the person putting the second vote on, despite the fact that in the times I can remember, both Manders and I gave reasons that were consistent.
Concerned about Manders' change in approach, as it seems like it could just as easily be either of realising she was getting a bit emotional so toning it back, or scum taking advice on how to blend in. Wish I'd played more games with you Manders, you're doing my head in...
Despite my recent scum ranking, I think WG's recent mess of activity has me suspicious, and puts you in a likely top 3.
I feel like we almost need a lynch and a night to happen so that we can take everything said by everybody and see what's still worth considering.
Here's what I propose: We each make a list assigning 3, 2 and 1 points to different people, with the most points going to the person we'd most like to lynch. Then, whoever has the most points, we lynch unanimously (unless there are some really big objections, like Arnn being top of 3 people's list and not on anybody else's).
While this seems like scum may get away with just doing what the crowd is doing, we'll get to see everybody's points systems and reflect on them.
The flaw in this is that scum can just wait til later to manipulate it a bit more, but I think we could also force the order based on same vague impressions of who everybody is suspicious of (seeing as the last three or four to vote are really the only ones who have a chance of any great manipulation to some greater purpose).
Do you think the scum are doing it on purpose to make you look scummy?
Arn, why are you feeding him arguments? If you agree with his concerns, say why and then add that as a theory. If you don't agree with his concerns, why help him express them?
Arn, why are you feeding him arguments? If you agree with his concerns, say why and then add that as a theory. If you don't agree with his concerns, why help him express them?
Sorry, didn't realize I was doing that. I think it's all in WG's head, but I was trying to get his mindset on it because his original post on the issue sounded kinda paranoid. I was just trying to delve into the paranoia.
And the fact that I was "told not to"... Who on this forum is my parent? I see a connection, I think I can pursue it. The fact that you are opposed to the IDEA so strongly is a tell for me. What is the harm in discussing it? You are attempting to shut this conversation down as soon as you can by throwing a vote out there for me. Why defend it so hard if you are open to anyone being scum at any time?
I'm trying to keep the game from getting distracted by something that, much more often than not, is not a scumtell. I have never and will never go after lurkers D1 and I've never been one to sit back and let someone else do it.
Why shouldn't we make you look it up? Is finding evidence to support your arguments not part of basic debating anymore?
Because I would be very annoyed if he lied and made me go look it up, because I was pretty damn sure it was him.
Really? Okay.
Going back to something I said at when I replaced in, this is one of those things I know nothing about. Is lurking scummy? It is in IRC Mafia. Maybe it isn't in forum Mafia. Could others chip in on this, please? Manders, you've already said your piece, there's no need to respond to this. In fact, please don't. I don't want people to be swayed by others opinions on this specific point, yours included. Later, on other points, maybe. Whatever.
No, more times than not, lurking is only a sign of playstyle. I mean there are some players who lurk more when they're scum, but most avoid doing that.
I apologise. Sorry.
Don't apologize. Explain it.
This feels odd to me. He's "been rubbing you the wrong way for awhile now". Okay, that's fine. Then we get this: "iirc". Where did that come from? How would you not remember that someone felt scummy to you? That strikes me as being really wierd, and I don't like it. It's not a full-fledged scum-tell to me, but it's definitely something that says "keep an eye on Manders".
I can't remember. I'm going to have to re-read him.
The flaw in this is that scum can just wait til later to manipulate it a bit more, but I think we could also force the order based on same vague impressions of who everybody is suspicious of (seeing as the last three or four to vote are really the only ones who have a chance of any great manipulation to some greater purpose).
It's been discussed in many a game before. Generally, I'd be up for it only when backed against a deadline.
I'm inclined to disagree, as long as reasoning is given with the list. It helps create more discussion. If there isn't any reasoning, though, it's not helpful and I generally agree. I personally like people to know where I stand on everyone.
I really don't like that at all, it smells strongly of coaching. I've got you as scum.
I did, and you are solidly town in my books now. Your reads mirror mine pretty strongly.
My that glass house looks indefensible against the stones you're throwing.
Bluh that's terrible.
I think you should use IE for its one true purpose: To download Firefox or Chrome.
---
So then, my current T/S list:
Town
MandersHex: Plenty of scumhunting, and reads similar to mine.
Zenjo: Town-tells everywhere, along with good scum-hunting.
Foxlet: Town-telling like crazy.
Leaning Town
Gamora: Has said some stuff I don't like, and Arnnaria tried to tie himself to him, but he's seemed townier lately.
Gigas1: I agree with a lot said in his post, but I'd love to see more.
EronTheRelentless: Tons of effort. However, I've seen a few things I don't like here and there, so not completely cleared to me.
KittyCupCake: TBH I'm terrible at reading you, but you don't seem too scummy and Manders vouched for you.
Neutral
Miracule: Needs more posts.
Scum
Arnnaria: So much I don't like. So much.
Chickenfish: Keeps posting very oddly, and I don't like it. I don't really like lynching him today, though, because he at least has been posting quite a bit.
Battlemaster: Posts very little, and what he does I disagree with almost completely.
Vote: Battlemaster
I think Battlemaster is the scummiest of the three, but I'll happily vote Arnnaria, and somewhat less happily vote Chickenfish.
If I agree with what she says I have no problems barning it. If I agree with what someone else says I have no problems barning it. I like most of what Manders is saying this game, so I barn it. If she says stuff I don't like, I won't barn it.
Clear now?
Good catch.
I'd still like to hear from Manders herself on why she said Blah.
1. In the past, I have had trouble reading KCC. I don't know why, but I do.
2. This game is no different.
3. I think Manders is town.
4. I trust Manders judgement on KCC if I think she is town.
5. KCC has only done one scummy thing (not releasing reads) which she will do later. So I don't see any reason to have her as scum.
6. Thus, I have her as leaning town until I see something to make me think otherwise.
I've commented on it before. If you're scum you're retaliating on Manders and that just solidifies both reads. If you're town you're frustrated that she's on your wagon and vocal about it and so you're retaliating anyway because in your mind she's trying to mislynch you. I suspect you're scum, but I'm letting you know for future games in case it's the second. Either way, I don't agree with your case much, and it doesn't influence my read on KCC.
I'll say one last thing on KCC, though. Even though my read is influenced by Manders, I have pretty strong scum reads on three different people. So far I have had little reason to suspect KCC, and a ton of reason to suspect the other three. I see no reason, today at least, to revisit that read. Tomorrow or day 3, I certainly will.
I have returned from my vacation and just starting to re-read everything in-depth so I can start that content posting I promised for later today.
I don't think I said Hi to Art yet <waves> How much did Iso have to bribe you to play his game
Chickens point system for voting, while sounding simple enough on the surface is unfortunately too easy to manipulate.
That being said, I wonder what everyone's opinions are on a deadline at this point?. Last time Iso offered was on the 15th. We didn't want to at that point for good reason, however, right now it seems like we are chasing our own tails. I thought perhaps a deadline (with time enough for Art to catch up) might help.
That being said, I wonder what everyone's opinions are on a deadline at this point?. Last time Iso offered was on the 15th. We didn't want to at that point for good reason, however, right now it seems like we are chasing our own tails. I thought perhaps a deadline (with time enough for Art to catch up) might help.
I can't support a deadline until we get Artifices opinions on the game so far. He hasn't posted a single post yet.
I have returned from my vacation and just starting to re-read everything in-depth so I can start that content posting I promised for later today.
I don't think I said Hi to Art yet <waves> How much did Iso have to bribe you to play his game
Chickens point system for voting, while sounding simple enough on the surface is unfortunately too easy to manipulate.
That being said, I wonder what everyone's opinions are on a deadline at this point?. Last time Iso offered was on the 15th. We didn't want to at that point for good reason, however, right now it seems like we are chasing our own tails. I thought perhaps a deadline (with time enough for Art to catch up) might help.
Welcome back! Also, hi Arn!
Definitely agree that without Art's input we can't do deadline, and also would like to hear from you Foxlet - you're one of the few on my 'confirmed towny' list.
I agree my voting system can be manipulated, that's why we'd have to do everyone who's been under suspicion vote first (me, Manders, Arn, Marr, Wheat)... then it's less open to abuse. Either way though, worst case scenario it's abused and then anyone alive tomorrow can look back on it to see how it's abused.
As for the quietness - the last page or 2 have kind of just been fairly weak squabbling, so not much to go on. Foxlet and Art will hopefully change this... and hopefully we can hear from Gigas sometime ever...
As I mentioned before, I still don't like how the entire claim came about, nor the aftermath. IMO, Arn just appears to schmooze everyone since the claim. Since he claimed a power role, and everyone else seems in favor of waiting until tomorrow I can see what happens. I still don't like it.
That feeling was only made worse with his updated Scum list it just struck me as very, very odd to include oneself in your own list. It also might just be that he was trying to be more "neutral and formal" in his list, but his language seems very unlike the rest of his posts.
BUT, on to more productive things since that wagon is not going anywhere today (BTW...Grats Arn on the 3yrs :thumbsup:)
I know Art just placed in and hasn't posted content yet, it's why I said
a deadline (with time enough for Art to catch up)
I was thinking something like a week or whatever Iso thinks is best. Give Art time to catch up, but not let us just keep running around like chickens with our heads cut off.
Anyway, just a thought. Time to put Mar through the microscope next!
That feeling was only made worse with his updated Scum list it just struck me as very, very odd to include oneself in your own list. It also might just be that he was trying to be more "neutral and formal" in his list, but his language seems very unlike the rest of his posts.
I was trying to be more "logical." I'm a Sociology major, so I was channeling my sociological rhetoric to try to make the scum list as unbiased as I could.
As I mentioned before, I still don't like how the entire claim came about, nor the aftermath. IMO, Arn just appears to schmooze everyone since the claim. Since he claimed a power role, and everyone else seems in favor of waiting until tomorrow I can see what happens. I still don't like it.
That feeling was only made worse with his updated Scum list it just struck me as very, very odd to include oneself in your own list. It also might just be that he was trying to be more "neutral and formal" in his list, but his language seems very unlike the rest of his posts.
BUT, on to more productive things since that wagon is not going anywhere today (BTW...Grats Arn on the 3yrs :thumbsup:)
I know Art just placed in and hasn't posted content yet, it's why I said I was thinking something like a week or whatever Iso thinks is best. Give Art time to catch up, but not let us just keep running around like chickens with our heads cut off.
Anyway, just a thought. Time to put Mar through the microscope next!
I agree with pretty much all of this. Arn's attitude has changed greatly since the claim, but it could just be a natural reaction to the release in pressure (much like me), so it's hard to draw heaps from. Still wouldn't be surprised if the claim turned out to be false.
Also agree that as of late we've just been coming up with more and more theories without anything to solidly justify any of them on, and depending on what you and Art can bring to the table, a deadline of sorts would probably do us good.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2) I hope you know what you're in for, asking me for a detailed post...
Seeing as this will probably take a few hours, I have a point to make in the meantime.
Right, so use those opinions for your list, like you say you're giong to.
Why will it take a few hours to make a list from things you've posted? There's a search function at the top of the thread, you can search for posts you've made in this thread. Or are you using the intervening time to make this reasoning up?
I believe the general idea is, in my opinion anyway, that when you want get a possibly important idea out quickly AND not have it get lost in a huge post, you put it out separately.
For me, when I'm doing PBPA or any content where I feel the need to go back and provide quotes, links or other information to prove my point, it CAN take me a minimum of an hour....sometimes longer if the forums eat my post (like it did a little while ago) :mad1: That is just because I like to make sure I'm making sense...I ramble among other things
Could I ask for your current leaning on me? If you don't think I'm scum for sure, could you tell us who your probables are?
Why would you ask Chicken for that? Up to that point you had a lot of back and forth discussions and finger pointing (I suppose is a good way of putting it?) with Chicken. This just oozes scum to me. Why should Marr care if he's leaning scum, unless he wants to try and change his appearance?
Marr does make a few good points here. Specifically about early claiming, etc. While it has the feeling of "general good advice towards new-ish player", I'm just bringing it up as could be coaching, buddying, and scumteam shenanigans.
Arn. You're arguing using emotion, rather than logic. People are going to be less likely to be swayed, because you aren't putting coherent arguments together. Manders is pulling your arguments to bits because they aren't solid. If you put solid arguments together, then they're not going to fall down in a stiff breeze.
Because she's actively pursuing other tracks, not just pushing your wagon. Make content, Arn, don't just spam with the aim of discrediting a single person. Pushing for the lynch of only one person seems be a scumtell to quite a lot of people here.
I believe I've touched on this before....but it touches me for various reasons similar to the post above. This one is a bit more obvious. Again...seems to be Marr being helpful, which for now I'll chalk it up to, but I still don't have a good feeling about it.
Miracule has been trying to lynch someone I think is scum, and only trying to lynch someone I think is scum, for a couple of days now. That makes her town, in my eyes.
I can think of 2 reasons why that could be poor logic:
1) Miracule is scum, trying to get town lynched.
2) Miracule is town, mistakenly trying to get town lynched (through tunneling, etc.)
Either of those allows for your being scum, and protecting Mirac due to him being scum or due to him making a fool of himself by pushing for a mislynch.
Again, true, however it's like you are coaching again.
The mafia generally know each other (correct?) so even if Arn knows who his other buds are, then he would already know that Mira is laying a false trail. Therefore it's also easy to make up logical arguments for/against things based on that knowledge.
OK...finally done. I know there isn't much on Marr. He's leaning scum for me right now, but I don't feel comfortable putting him in the "firmly" scum category at this point.
I'm going to hold off on voting until Art gets his input.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I believe the general idea is, in my opinion anyway, that when you want get a possibly important idea out quickly AND not have it get lost in a huge post, you put it out separately.
For me, when I'm doing PBPA or any content where I feel the need to go back and provide quotes, links or other information to prove my point, it CAN take me a minimum of an hour....sometimes longer if the forums eat my post (like it did a little while ago) :mad1: That is just because I like to make sure I'm making sense...I ramble among other things
Further to this point, why does it matter how long it took? I could've not posted anything, instead of saying "hey guys a few quick things, but much bigger stuff in a few hours", but I chose to say the quick stuff.
As I said at the time, it was very much like Marr was trying to shut down my analysis as bogus before I even posted it...
As for the rest of your stuff about coaching/bussing, it's possible, but I don't really see it as being laid on especially thick. If they're scum buddies then it's what was happening for sure, but at the moment I find it hard to acknowledge it as a tell.
I think as I said before, on day 1 it's safer to go "ok so the way they're acting doesn't disprove my theory", rather than "oooh there's some buddying/bussing happening here!"
Further to this point, why does it matter how long it took? I could've not posted anything, instead of saying "hey guys a few quick things, but much bigger stuff in a few hours", but I chose to say the quick stuff.
As I said at the time, it was very much like Marr was trying to shut down my analysis as bogus before I even posted it...
As for the rest of your stuff about coaching/bussing, it's possible, but I don't really see it as being laid on especially thick. If they're scum buddies then it's what was happening for sure, but at the moment I find it hard to acknowledge it as a tell.
I think as I said before, on day 1 it's safer to go "ok so the way they're acting doesn't disprove my theory", rather than "oooh there's some buddying/bussing happening here!"
Chicken, do you still think it's the best outcome that we lynch you tonight? Or have you changed your mind and moved on to other targets?
Chicken, do you still think it's the best outcome that we lynch you tonight? Or have you changed your mind and moved on to other targets?
already said a coupla times I don't think I'm the best lynch. I'm definitely an acceptable one. Purely selfishly it'll be disappointing because this is a fantastically involved game, but I think town would get a lot of info from it and have a good chance of winning, so on that front I won't be overly upset if it happens
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
As I said at the time, it was very much like Marr was trying to shut down my analysis as bogus before I even posted it...
As for the rest of your stuff about coaching/bussing, it's possible, but I don't really see it as being laid on especially thick. If they're scum buddies then it's what was happening for sure, but at the moment I find it hard to acknowledge it as a tell.
Just kept the 2 parts that really caught my eye out of that quote. About the bussing/coaching. Yes, it *COULD* be a scum tell, but to me it's not enough to have me pulling out the pitchfork for Marr at this time. Especially only on Day 1. This was one reason I went back to pretty much ALL his posts and the mild coaching/bussing on Arn (who I find pretty scummy) was the worst thing I could really find.
already said a coupla times I don't think I'm the best lynch. I'm definitely an acceptable one. Purely selfishly it'll be disappointing because this is a fantastically involved game, but I think town would get a lot of info from it and have a good chance of winning, so on that front I won't be overly upset if it happens
I have kept up with Chickens thoughts on self lynch. While it *could* be a scum tell as I believe WG mentioned somewhere, I'm leaning more VT for Chicken. A town would (hopefully) never think they were the BEST lynch. There is a world of difference between acceptable and best.
I need coffee and food before I can do anymore thinking! Mostly coffee...all the coffee!
I have kept up with Chickens thoughts on self lynch. While it *could* be a scum tell as I believe WG mentioned somewhere, I'm leaning more VT for Chicken. A town would (hopefully) never think they were the BEST lynch. There is a world of difference between acceptable and best.
He did think that for a while...
I honestly can't believe Chicken is going to get away with a post like that. The reason we shouldn't lynch him anymore is because we have a better chance of lynching scum if we don't? What?
My vote is on Chickenfish and is not changing unless something really crazily drastic happens.
I have kept up with Chickens thoughts on self lynch. While it *could* be a scum tell as I believe WG mentioned somewhere, I'm leaning more VT for Chicken. A town would (hopefully) never think they were the BEST lynch. There is a world of difference between acceptable and best.
I need coffee and food before I can do anymore thinking! Mostly coffee...all the coffee!
If he would've made that claim (lynching me is best for the town) and then backed off after the pressure was lifted, I'd think it's a scum tell. But as far as I can tell he still thinks it's a good idea.
Just kept the 2 parts that really caught my eye out of that quote. About the bussing/coaching. Yes, it *COULD* be a scum tell, but to me it's not enough to have me pulling out the pitchfork for Marr at this time. Especially only on Day 1. This was one reason I went back to pretty much ALL his posts and the mild coaching/bussing on Arn (who I find pretty scummy) was the worst thing I could really find.
I have kept up with Chickens thoughts on self lynch. While it *could* be a scum tell as I believe WG mentioned somewhere, I'm leaning more VT for Chicken. A town would (hopefully) never think they were the BEST lynch. There is a world of difference between acceptable and best.
I need coffee and food before I can do anymore thinking! Mostly coffee...all the coffee!
I agree with both of these thoughts. I think Marr has been pretty even keeled this game. The only thing that has jumpled out at me is he has apologized for several statements. Is this due to pressure when confronted on them or is there another reason?
I agree that Chicken feels VT. His posts have been very logical for the last week or so and he has been doing a good job presenting a consistent arguement. I'm also glad that he has stopped pushing for a lynch of himself.
If he would've made that claim (lynching me is best for the town) and then backed off after the pressure was lifted, I'd think it's a scum tell. But as far as I can tell he still thinks it's a good idea.
So we either have suicide scum or noble townie.
Then you need to pay attention. He no longer supports that plan.
already said a coupla times I don't think I'm the best lynch. I'm definitely an acceptable one. Purely selfishly it'll be disappointing because this is a fantastically involved game, but I think town would get a lot of info from it and have a good chance of winning, so on that front I won't be overly upset if it happens
Sounds like he still somewhat supports it to me, Manders.
Then he keeps flip-flopping because he said somewhere he didn't.
Once again Manders, it's probably best you watch your tone a bit. This whole discussion has been about the fact that I now don't think I'm the best lynch, but totally accept me as a valid lynch. So if your only comment is right near the end and 'pay attention', it just shows that you haven't been. Even if you had been, and Arn hadn't been, it's not a nice way to address somebody. It's just salt in the wound that it's you who hasn't been paying attention.
Quote from Foxlet »
I have kept up with Chickens thoughts on self lynch. While it *could* be a scum tell as I believe WG mentioned somewhere, I'm leaning more VT for Chicken. A town would (hopefully) never think they were the BEST lynch. There is a world of difference between acceptable and best.
I'm not going to pretend I didn't think I was the best lynch at the time. Discussion had stagnated about whether me being overdefensive was acceptable or not, and any other points other people made seemed lost. Because of all that, it would have cleared the air a lot and people's true intentions revealed more if I'd been lynched.
However, there's been a significant evolution in the conversation since, so while I still support a similar logic behind lynching me, I don't think it's necessary like it once seemed.
Quote from Miracule »
He did think that for a while...
I honestly can't believe Chicken is going to get away with a post like that. The reason we shouldn't lynch him anymore is because we have a better chance of lynching scum if we don't? What?
My vote is on Chickenfish and is not changing unless something really crazily drastic happens.
There's no actual analysis in here Miracule, and you're glossing over my arguments yet again with "GUYS LET'S LYNCH HIM OK? REMEMBER HOW YOU FIRST THOUGHT HE WAS SCUM?"
If you have actual arguments, please present them, and everyone can discuss. A post like this one, however, is just active lurking.
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It's interesting that you would spin it that way since I posted TWICE that I would be V/LA. You would have seen it if you weren't trying to get a lynch on anyone that is convenient at the moment.
How?
Yeah, I forgot. So sue me.
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And the fact that I was "told not to"... Who on this forum is my parent? I see a connection, I think I can pursue it. The fact that you are opposed to the IDEA so strongly is a tell for me. What is the harm in discussing it? You are attempting to shut this conversation down as soon as you can by throwing a vote out there for me. Why defend it so hard if you are open to anyone being scum at any time?
His past post history has been very logical and even tempered. He has never hopped on a wagon or cried for war against a player.
Do you not remember Eron's first list, which included DETAILED pbpa of nearly every player in the game?
What's your voting system?
Because you sure made it seem like that was your conclusion.
I'm pointing out that it's scummy, not trying to shut it down.
Man, why do people I suspect keep jumping on wagons right behind me?
I'm not defending Gigas, I'm attacking your poor reasoning.
It's not a reaction to nothing, otherwise I wouldn't be reacting.
How many times has this happened this game?
I know Chicken did it, and I think it happened another time earlier as well, but don't feel like looking for it. In any case, twice in a row feels kinda weird.
Do you think the scum are doing it on purpose to make you look scummy?
Not really, because one of the two is probably town.
Concerned about Manders' change in approach, as it seems like it could just as easily be either of realising she was getting a bit emotional so toning it back, or scum taking advice on how to blend in. Wish I'd played more games with you Manders, you're doing my head in...
Despite my recent scum ranking, I think WG's recent mess of activity has me suspicious, and puts you in a likely top 3.
The flaw in this is that scum can just wait til later to manipulate it a bit more, but I think we could also force the order based on same vague impressions of who everybody is suspicious of (seeing as the last three or four to vote are really the only ones who have a chance of any great manipulation to some greater purpose).
Arn, why are you feeding him arguments? If you agree with his concerns, say why and then add that as a theory. If you don't agree with his concerns, why help him express them?
Sorry, didn't realize I was doing that. I think it's all in WG's head, but I was trying to get his mindset on it because his original post on the issue sounded kinda paranoid. I was just trying to delve into the paranoia.
I'm trying to keep the game from getting distracted by something that, much more often than not, is not a scumtell. I have never and will never go after lurkers D1 and I've never been one to sit back and let someone else do it.
Because I would be very annoyed if he lied and made me go look it up, because I was pretty damn sure it was him.
No, more times than not, lurking is only a sign of playstyle. I mean there are some players who lurk more when they're scum, but most avoid doing that.
Don't apologize. Explain it.
I can't remember. I'm going to have to re-read him.
No, I don't remember it, but so? You should see some of the posts I've made when I'm scum. Posting style is not indicative of alignment.
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I looked but cannot find it right now. Maybe Eron knows which one it was.
Re-read it before you consider a vote on Eron though.
It's been discussed in many a game before. Generally, I'd be up for it only when backed against a deadline.
I'd be up for it if backed against a deadline too. But, I'm pretty confident we still have a lot more to discuss. Artifice hasn't even chimed in yet.
This is the post I was talking about: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8081500&postcount=210
*I'm not saying they're a scum team. But one of them is definitely trying to be extra friendly to the other.
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Why'd it get so quiet today?
I have returned from my vacation and just starting to re-read everything in-depth so I can start that content posting I promised for later today.
I don't think I said Hi to Art yet <waves> How much did Iso have to bribe you to play his game
Chickens point system for voting, while sounding simple enough on the surface is unfortunately too easy to manipulate.
That being said, I wonder what everyone's opinions are on a deadline at this point?. Last time Iso offered was on the 15th. We didn't want to at that point for good reason, however, right now it seems like we are chasing our own tails. I thought perhaps a deadline (with time enough for Art to catch up) might help.
I can't support a deadline until we get Artifices opinions on the game so far. He hasn't posted a single post yet.
Iso lost internet connection in a storm last night, but he should be able to be online tonight.
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Definitely agree that without Art's input we can't do deadline, and also would like to hear from you Foxlet - you're one of the few on my 'confirmed towny' list.
I agree my voting system can be manipulated, that's why we'd have to do everyone who's been under suspicion vote first (me, Manders, Arn, Marr, Wheat)... then it's less open to abuse. Either way though, worst case scenario it's abused and then anyone alive tomorrow can look back on it to see how it's abused.
As for the quietness - the last page or 2 have kind of just been fairly weak squabbling, so not much to go on. Foxlet and Art will hopefully change this... and hopefully we can hear from Gigas sometime ever...
Hi...?
I'm going to be V/LA on Sunday. I'm turning three (years clean and sober)!
UNVOTE Arnnaria
As I mentioned before, I still don't like how the entire claim came about, nor the aftermath. IMO, Arn just appears to schmooze everyone since the claim. Since he claimed a power role, and everyone else seems in favor of waiting until tomorrow I can see what happens. I still don't like it.
That feeling was only made worse with his updated Scum list it just struck me as very, very odd to include oneself in your own list. It also might just be that he was trying to be more "neutral and formal" in his list, but his language seems very unlike the rest of his posts.
BUT, on to more productive things since that wagon is not going anywhere today (BTW...Grats Arn on the 3yrs :thumbsup:)
I know Art just placed in and hasn't posted content yet, it's why I said I was thinking something like a week or whatever Iso thinks is best. Give Art time to catch up, but not let us just keep running around like chickens with our heads cut off.
Anyway, just a thought. Time to put Mar through the microscope next!
I was trying to be more "logical." I'm a Sociology major, so I was channeling my sociological rhetoric to try to make the scum list as unbiased as I could.
Oops, let's try again. Hi Art!
Massive congrats!
I agree with pretty much all of this. Arn's attitude has changed greatly since the claim, but it could just be a natural reaction to the release in pressure (much like me), so it's hard to draw heaps from. Still wouldn't be surprised if the claim turned out to be false.
Also agree that as of late we've just been coming up with more and more theories without anything to solidly justify any of them on, and depending on what you and Art can bring to the table, a deadline of sorts would probably do us good.
Also, Foxlet, please do not use bold+red text. That is reserved for forum Moderators as well as game hosts. Thank you.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Can we get a votecount, Mr. Tiny?
Not true, players can use it during list-making to specify scum.
But, no, you don't want to vote using it, Foxy
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Chickenfish (2): Zenjo, Miracule
EronTheRelentless (3): Artifice 101, Gigas1, MandersHex
KittyCupCake (1): Marr965
Marr965 (2): Wheat_Grinder, Chickenfish
MandersHex (1): Arnnaria
With 12 alive, it is 7 to lynch.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Several of us have been guilty of this, including myself, Arn and Manders. Why point the finger at Chicken.
I believe the general idea is, in my opinion anyway, that when you want get a possibly important idea out quickly AND not have it get lost in a huge post, you put it out separately.
For me, when I'm doing PBPA or any content where I feel the need to go back and provide quotes, links or other information to prove my point, it CAN take me a minimum of an hour....sometimes longer if the forums eat my post (like it did a little while ago) :mad1: That is just because I like to make sure I'm making sense...I ramble among other things
Why would you ask Chicken for that? Up to that point you had a lot of back and forth discussions and finger pointing (I suppose is a good way of putting it?) with Chicken. This just oozes scum to me. Why should Marr care if he's leaning scum, unless he wants to try and change his appearance?
In Reply to this entire post
Marr does make a few good points here. Specifically about early claiming, etc. While it has the feeling of "general good advice towards new-ish player", I'm just bringing it up as could be coaching, buddying, and scumteam shenanigans.
I believe I've touched on this before....but it touches me for various reasons similar to the post above. This one is a bit more obvious. Again...seems to be Marr being helpful, which for now I'll chalk it up to, but I still don't have a good feeling about it.
Bussing perhaps? I just think that WG got the "eww" factor I got from this. Could be nothing but its worth a closer inspection.
Again, true, however it's like you are coaching again.
The mafia generally know each other (correct?) so even if Arn knows who his other buds are, then he would already know that Mira is laying a false trail. Therefore it's also easy to make up logical arguments for/against things based on that knowledge.
OK...finally done. I know there isn't much on Marr. He's leaning scum for me right now, but I don't feel comfortable putting him in the "firmly" scum category at this point.
I'm going to hold off on voting until Art gets his input.
Also...:crying: I can't use red?
Can I use...dark red?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
As I said at the time, it was very much like Marr was trying to shut down my analysis as bogus before I even posted it...
As for the rest of your stuff about coaching/bussing, it's possible, but I don't really see it as being laid on especially thick. If they're scum buddies then it's what was happening for sure, but at the moment I find it hard to acknowledge it as a tell.
I think as I said before, on day 1 it's safer to go "ok so the way they're acting doesn't disprove my theory", rather than "oooh there's some buddying/bussing happening here!"
Chicken, do you still think it's the best outcome that we lynch you tonight? Or have you changed your mind and moved on to other targets?
It's not, I just quoted it so you'd realize I was addressing you. Bad habit; I'll try to break it.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Just kept the 2 parts that really caught my eye out of that quote. About the bussing/coaching. Yes, it *COULD* be a scum tell, but to me it's not enough to have me pulling out the pitchfork for Marr at this time. Especially only on Day 1. This was one reason I went back to pretty much ALL his posts and the mild coaching/bussing on Arn (who I find pretty scummy) was the worst thing I could really find.
I have kept up with Chickens thoughts on self lynch. While it *could* be a scum tell as I believe WG mentioned somewhere, I'm leaning more VT for Chicken. A town would (hopefully) never think they were the BEST lynch. There is a world of difference between acceptable and best.
I need coffee and food before I can do anymore thinking! Mostly coffee...all the coffee!
He did think that for a while...
I honestly can't believe Chicken is going to get away with a post like that. The reason we shouldn't lynch him anymore is because we have a better chance of lynching scum if we don't? What?
My vote is on Chickenfish and is not changing unless something really crazily drastic happens.
I can't see scum saying so either.
If he would've made that claim (lynching me is best for the town) and then backed off after the pressure was lifted, I'd think it's a scum tell. But as far as I can tell he still thinks it's a good idea.
So we either have suicide scum or noble townie.
I agree with both of these thoughts. I think Marr has been pretty even keeled this game. The only thing that has jumpled out at me is he has apologized for several statements. Is this due to pressure when confronted on them or is there another reason?
I agree that Chicken feels VT. His posts have been very logical for the last week or so and he has been doing a good job presenting a consistent arguement. I'm also glad that he has stopped pushing for a lynch of himself.
Then you need to pay attention. He no longer supports that plan.
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Sounds like he still somewhat supports it to me, Manders.
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Once again Manders, it's probably best you watch your tone a bit. This whole discussion has been about the fact that I now don't think I'm the best lynch, but totally accept me as a valid lynch. So if your only comment is right near the end and 'pay attention', it just shows that you haven't been. Even if you had been, and Arn hadn't been, it's not a nice way to address somebody. It's just salt in the wound that it's you who hasn't been paying attention.
I'm not going to pretend I didn't think I was the best lynch at the time. Discussion had stagnated about whether me being overdefensive was acceptable or not, and any other points other people made seemed lost. Because of all that, it would have cleared the air a lot and people's true intentions revealed more if I'd been lynched.
However, there's been a significant evolution in the conversation since, so while I still support a similar logic behind lynching me, I don't think it's necessary like it once seemed.
There's no actual analysis in here Miracule, and you're glossing over my arguments yet again with "GUYS LET'S LYNCH HIM OK? REMEMBER HOW YOU FIRST THOUGHT HE WAS SCUM?"
If you have actual arguments, please present them, and everyone can discuss. A post like this one, however, is just active lurking.