In all likelihood, Azusa will be cast on turn 3 (no sooner) every game. I've not seen any other Azusa player but me attempt one drop mana dorks to try and cast her on turn 2 (indeed, these dorks make for terrible top decks so I can't say I blame anyone). For that matter, it seems that most Azusa players have a prejudice vs. running any 1 drops, which includes Sylvan Safekeeper (absolutely an auto-include) and Skullclamp (which Azusa desperately needs).
The point I'm trying to make is that Azusa is actually really really slow compared to Sisay. Because we run more dorks and have a more consistent plan to abuse Gaea's Cradle with said dorks (and plenty of utility creatures), we usually outramp Azusa, better, faster, and more assuredly.
Sisay ramps more efficiently for the early game, and that's what matters here: ramping into our general means that we can start tutoring up Silver Bullets asap. Teeg really dominates this matchup, as shutting off our opponent's Tooth and Nail, Green Sun's Zenith, All is Dust, and Planeswalkers means that our opponent loses almost all of his draw power, all of his tutor power, and all of his removal.
I don't recommend wasting removal on Azusa. The most likely scenario (having piloted her extensively myself) is that your opponent will cast Azusa on turn 3 and then dump out 2 lands--which are ALL the lands remaining in the hand. If the Azusa player is lucky, he'll have a few cards left in hand, hopefully one of which is a big bomb (which still can't yet be cast that turn, and possibly not for several turns after) or a tutor for a bomb (which still can't yet be cast that turn, and possibly not for several turns after). Because Azusa plays too few threats overall given the rather bleh availability of playable/impactful green/mono-colored bombs, you should be running plenty of removal to deal with the slow once-per-turn threat that enters the battlefield. Fiend Hunter on anything is probably GG for your opponent.
The most annoying thing that the Azusa player will likely do before the late-game (supposing they survive that long through all your disruption-turned-threats, which is like half your deck) is cast Avenger of Zendikar. It's almost always the best tutor target. Guess what? You can goldfish into Elesh Norn quicker than they can cast Avenger, and then all is well in the world. Speaking of the abundance of removal you have, Sisay is better at dealing with degenerate enchantments (eg, Survival) better than any other deck in the format, both because of redundancy of answers and sheer tutoring power, so you're well positioned to outright stop nearly all of the annoying things Azusa could possibly throw at you.
Also, of course, if you're still running Loyal Retainers (perfectly valid thing to do), you can win this matchup as early as turn 3. But as I've emphasized elsewhere, quick wins aren't everything. Sisay more often than not just sets up-hinders-answers-disrupts for several turns and then goes ka-sploosh and wins by a blowout. Given Azusa's terribly inconsistent gameplan and lack of available draw power, this matchup shouldn't be very difficult for an optimized Sisay deck at all.
Given Azusa's terribly inconsistent gameplan and lack of available draw power, this matchup shouldn't be very difficult for an optimized Sisay deck at all.
This plus the statement about Sisay being faster early game pretty much spells defeat for Azusa. Elesh Norn should lock up this matchup, especially when it comes down faster for Sisay than anything to scary on the other side of the board. I don't think Azusa is nearly the monster in French as it is in multiplayer. Sisay essentially draws 2 cards a turn. Azusa only gets 1 and its green.
Well good to know. I don't have much perspective on the matchup except for one game of best of 3 and I lost 1/2 (though one was due to color screw, so I don't consider that an indicator of anything).
You guys were generally right about the LD. I still don't think it's bad, but I do think that it's a little unnecessary and, as some people said, not good enough unless you get it at the right point. I'm going to try the following changes:
+1 Explore - I've been meaning to try this out for a while, and it seems like it does a lot of things I like a 2 drop to do. Drawing cards is nice, ramping is nice, and I absolutely loved this card in Standard, so I'd be surprised if I didn't like it here. I'm also playing 39 lands now (since missing land drops is one of the easiest ways to get smashed with Sisay), so it'll be better.
+1 Ghostly Prison - I've found myself wishing I had this in my deck a number of times now, and I think it's time to give it a go. I have a couple ways to tutor it out, and it's good enough in enough matchups that I'm okay with drawing it usually. The matchup against aggressive decks is definitely one of the sketchier things about Sisay, and resolving this card against something like Ismaru or Edric makes them either not pressure you as much or not cast as many spells, which can buy enough time to get your power cards online (mostly just Norn, of course)
+1 Windbrisk Heights - Yeah, I've absolutely raged against tap lands in the past, but I think it's time to give in and try one. I don't like the manlands still, since I dont think i'd almost ever activate them, but this card seems sweet. My deck is pretty threat dense, so I feel reasonably confident that I can hit something reasonable most of the time, and the chance of hitting a titan or Norn or something is always there, making this card very dangerous. It's also generally not that hard to swing with 3 creatures... Obviously this might change if I don't like how this card plays, but it seems interesting enough to try.
As always, thoughts are encouraged! You guys keep my stupid ideas in check ;-)
Pretty much just cards you see in legacy enchantress decks, and other decks with enchantments over the years. GW have some of the best. I listed some of the best, but you'd have to figure out what you're doing with so many enchantments/why you chose those over other cards. You'd also have to decide which ones you actually want to play and why they work well together. The biggest draw in my opinion is Serra's Sanctum, but that's probably not enough unless you can really make it worth it. Generally better to maximize your Gaea's Cradle instead in Sisay. An all-out enchantment build would be cool, but again, I'm not sure what it would do. I'm sure I'd try it if Cradle gets banned though.
Also, with the increased emphasis on fetching enchantments, you can abuse Survival of the Fittest more reliably than most decks. This means that you'd also want to be running Loyal Retainers and Iona, Shield of Emeria for easy wins against a good number of decks.
Give it a shot! Let us know how it works out for you. I think you could tailor the enchantment theme to your meta (especially with a lot of the other suggestions listed there) and be a strong contender. It's not particularly easy to pull off in EDH, but Sisay can put a lot of pressure on opponents otherwise and take advantage of some great ramp cards to blast herself into the end game.
EDIT: Oh hi there, Merdock! Lol, good suggestions. I've seen firsthand Luminarch Ascenscion work in the French meta, and I forgot about Squirrel Nest and Earthcraft, something that Teeg decks are still fond of doing to steal wins.
Since I'm on somewhat of a roll, I decided to sit down and really think about the manabase for Sisay. I'm going to list all the lands I'm quite sure should definitely be in the deck, followed by a list of possible other lands. I've realized that my Sisay manabase has never really been thought through as much as I may have liked.
First off, I think we need somewhere between 37-40 mana-producing lands. I'm not going to settle on a number yet, but we'll aim for somewhere in there. As far as must-play lands go, I think we have these. These are lands I've never questioned seriously, and whose potential drawbacks I think are far outweighed by their positive attributes.
The following are lands I think we could be playing. This doesn't include lands that run out of counters or that get sacrificed/can lose you mana for weird reasons (City of Traitors, Scorched Ruins) since I'm quite sure these aren't worth it. Anything else that's even slightly possible is on this list, though I'm not sure I got ALL of the colorless options (it's pretty hard to find a good way to search for those):
Out of these lands, I think these are good enough to consider. I've added some borderline playables in here, but these are cards that I think are at least worth discussing (including some new gems I think I may actually try/never knew about). I tried to avoid taplands that only do mana fixing, since I'm quite sure those are worse than basics. Also, I already play some of these cards, but think they have not been SO phenomenal that they're worth throwing back down here. Some, like Horizon Canopy, will almost certainly make it back in anyway.
Of these, I think the cards that I don't already play that should definitely be under consideration (colorless manlands not included, since those are pretty debatable/easy to remember) are:
Based on ALL of this, I'd have to say that the cards I am most considering are Nantuko Monastery, Petrified Field, City of Brass, and Deserted Temple. I'm also strongly considering Maze of Ith (as a spell), and returning Crop Rotation to the deck. I'm still not sold on most of the manlands, but would be interested in hearing thoughts an arguments on them, particularly the non-colorless ones. I'm not sure how often/when I'd really activate them, but they're definitely worth considering.
I don't know why not Loyal Retainers and Iona, Shield of Emeria in main deck?
I ran this combo for many many moons, but I found that it was better suited for both a deck that wanted to go all in on Survival (and thus spoke to an older version of the deck that had more enchantment tutoring and combos and thus significantly worse matchups vs top tier decks, most of which were multi-colored and with plenty o' counters) and for a meta that is comprised mostly of experimental, mono-colored, C-Tiered decks. Certainly, I still watch this combo steal many wins in various G/W decks, and it can at times resolve even against top tier decks with blue in them and make them pretty sad, but ultimately I found it to be not good enough for my build that curves so beautifully and can win exceedingly well without any over-the-top tricks. That we have to dedicate narrow cards to our decks like Insist or Gaea's Herald to ensure that combos resolve against most top tier decks is reason enough not to run these two cards, IMO. If I were to chance any combo at all for a competitive meta, it would probably be to re-include Living Plane.
As aforementioned, it's really only decks with Blue backup or Black targeted discard that can dream of being top tier decks with combo plans in the French competitive meta (or Karador with its option of recasting combo pieces infinitely). As Sisay has neither option, she's best suited as a threat-dense toolbox, each and every permanent making your opponent groan with despair.
Merdock: I hope you stick with Mana Tithe! That card has never let me down. Condemn failed the "does it deal with Edric?" test, so I swapped it out.
Great land breakdown. I've tried out just about every stinkin' one of them that looked remotely viable. The only lands I'm still not 110% certain on are the tap-sac lands, but they've yet to really let me down like I expect they will. Moar testing needed.
There are times I miss Kor Haven. Rare times, but it's certainly has its uses. I might be just about perfect with my color balance and I'm not having any issues with there being too many colorless lands preventing me from casting spells, so I'm afraid to mess with it. Shrugsville.
On a totally unrelated note, I tried to make an Emrakul deck. I hadn't made a decision that bad since I drank Tequila, Beer, and Wine in the same night. Colorless decks are terrible.
That's true, but artifacts also have a ton of synergies that occasionally can make the mana increase irrelevant. Definitely tough to build though - I long since abandoned my Karn EDH deck
benett, you hit the nail on the head. Having to wait an extra turn to play comparable cards is killer; in two games that I cast Emrakul (a rare occurrence that only happened after sac'ing all my artifacts to Krark-Clan Ironworks), I still lost to damage because I was too deep in the red.
Back on topic:
Check out the sheer dominance of G/W Maverick at the latest SCG Open:
Given the way our builds have evolved over time, I think it's 100% accurate to call Sisay the G/W Maverick deck for French EDH, with its sexy mix of removal and efficiently costed creatures that both disrupt and beat face. I should sneak that into the OP.
I've thought of Sisay like a traditional little kid deck. The Maverick comparison is probably a more up to date comparison. This format does play a lot like legacy afterall.
I know, I'm going back on my word from just a few days ago, but if Retainers is good enough for Legacy, it's definitely good enough for EDH considering how absolutely killer a fast Norn is. Also, of course, Retainers works with a lot of other cards in our deck, so he's not exactly a dead draw.
Increasingly more these days, my attempts to equip greaves are met with a dead creature in response. Also, greaves are quickly becoming the telltale sign of a casual deck. They're still awesome for this deck when they work, but I find myself not ever tutoring for them when given the chance given the obvious drawback. Giving Sisay haste and the potential to tap twice the turn she comes into play as a static ability should be great in the spot removal-heavy meta. I've got a good feeling.
Pendelhaven makes sense. We have 12 1/1 creatures that could use the boost and thus give us some strength vs weenie decks in the early game, give us the potential to boost a guy past pyroclasm effects, and screw over our opponent's Jitte-wipe plans. I've seen it played in a few really great decks recently and it's absolutely not bad. It does weaken our Rofellos and Arbor Elf ever so slightly, but it shouldn't be too noticeable.
What do y'all think?
Also reconsidering Aven Mindcensor, since he shows up in a ton of top Legacy Maverick decks as well. In the top tier meta, he's bound to screw over players fetching for lands, and of course tutors and Survival are really prevalent. I might free up a slot for him again soon. Only against casual and lower-tier mono-colored decks have I ever seen him be a swing and a miss.
I'm going to go ahead and say that cutting greaves cannot possibly be correct under any circumstances. I've actually been tutoring it up more than I used to, and I'd say that it's almost certainly fighting for the spot of "best equipment in the deck" with Jitte. It is certainly almost strictly better than thousand year elixir, aside from the case of playing Sisay and maintaining priority (which is cool, and may be good enough to include elixir, but isnt good enough to include elixir over greaves).
Pendelhaven is fine. If you're getting into a lot of small creature combat, it's obviously good, but I've found that doesnt happen all that much for me, and I'd never really use it.
Let me know how Retainers goes, I've never tested it.
I made a bunch of changes to my list recently, so feel free to check it out now.
I would consider city of brass, horizon canopy, and reflecting pool auto includes. There is no reason to not up the amount of sources of each color in your deck if life is the only draw back. Reflecting pool increases the consistency of your mana base as well. Greaves should also stay in the deck. Giving Sisay haste and shroud for free is really good. But if you are experiencing removal in response to the equip, you shouldn't look at it as a down side. You lose no mana to equip. They already had the removal, I doubt they were going to not use it. If you weren't equipping Greaves then your creature probably just dies EOT instead.
But if you are experiencing removal in response to the equip, you shouldn't look at it as a down side. You lose no mana to equip. They already had the removal, I doubt they were going to not use it. If you weren't equipping Greaves then your creature probably just dies EOT instead.
Strongly agree with this statement. Greaves is the nuts, though it's possible that Riley doesn't play the right cards to abuse it. I've had many opponents just quit when I play a Primeval with Greaves in play. It also lets you dump hands full of mana dorks when necessary, or haste up a dryad arbor so it taps for mana, or haste a Sun Titan, etc. etc. Too much value to cut it, honestly.
Well, at least nobody's disagreeing with Pendelhaven. ;P
I've only had one and a half sets to test so far, and both were against Olivia Control, a sort of nightmare matchup for this deck; it was jam-packed with all the best spot removal cards, multiple board sweepers, and the Edicts (as well as all the 1cmc discard effects, but that's beside the point albeit also annoying). Short of Steely Resolve, there's absolutely no way Sisay would have untapped to do her thing if I had used a tutor on Greaves, especially after Olivia resolves (ARGH). Every single thing we cast mana on and attempt to do can be stopped at instant speed against these nightmare decks that have Fire Covenant (aaaarrrrrghhhh!).
I'm in the business of making a primer that beats the best decks in the meta and especially the decks that hose us hard. R/B decks packing tons of spot removal are a terrible matchup for us, even with a turn 1 Sylvan Safekeeper (haha, but let's not make the mistake of thinking that this is a unique Sisay problem; Edric and Animar and most other tier 1 decks are hosed hard[er] by theses sorts of builds, too). If the meta is waiting for me equip my greaves and blowing me out because I wasted 4 mana on a G/W Bear with nice boobs, then I have to think of new ways to make my bear do its thing. Elixir ensures that Sisay will tutor up something valuable, something greaves can no longer promise.
To be sure, in the one game that Elixir came down, it was insanely good. No doubt, getting Cradle and Teeg in the same turn is insanely overpowered, or Jitte and Saffi, or a second White mana and Norn. Subsequent re-casts were equally exasperating for my opponent, who had answers in hand but couldn't stop my tutoring.
To Sensei's point:
"But if you are experiencing removal in response to the equip, you shouldn't look at it as a down side. You lose no mana to equip. They already had the removal, I doubt they were going to not use it. If you weren't equipping Greaves then your creature probably just dies EOT instead."
That's what I'm saying! =P
Of course they're going to use it. The point is that it's something I've come to take for granted when playing the best decks on Cockatrice, that Sisay will die unless shrouded by Mother, Safekeeper, or Resolve. When she doesn't die without protection or in response to equipping greaves? I feel profoundly blessed by the Magic gods. That's how rare of an occasion this is. I'm not exaggerating; in a meta teeming with Edrics and the occasional Zurs and Infect Rafiq and on and on--all good decks are packing the best instant speed removal options (this is what makes Animar and Geist such pervasive bastards).
This isn't to say I wouldn't run both, but space is a huge premium. I actually dropped Wayfarer in place of Elixir (and not Clamp as I said above, which had been out for a while but not reflected in the OP). That one pains me, but alas! Abusing the general is what this format is about, ultimately, and Elixir hastes all my dorks (including arbor). Increasingly more, I'm finding that stability trumps explosiveness in this meta the majority of the time. If I want to build a tournament winning deck, then I have to expect to face tournament-caliber opponents who are ready to kill Sisay the first time she's cast and, often, then some.
All that said, I'll still have to test out Elixir more and, as evidenced by half my posts in this thread, no decisions are final.
EDIT: I guess, in a nutshell what I'm saying is that greaves on a Titan is AWESOME, but Elixir on Sisay is necessary. We're not going for awesome but for whatever works.
On a related note, Saffi is testing superbly well. She's a better greaves. ;P
EDIT 2: Some really awful test games today. Played against a 5cc Oath deck and a mass destruction control Jhoira (that's two decks taking full advantage of the Emrakul unbanning), and these types of decks are of course stupidly good vs. one with no control magic. Sigh. I also played against a Karador deck that just had everything go right for it, including a turn 3 Iona. I managed to load up the board with Green Creatures, but my opponent Damnation'd into Karmic Guide to replay Iona. I could have played Teeg on turn 2. My bad?
I glossed over Sensei's point about a few auto-include lands earlier, but I think I have to agree: City of Brass and Reflecting Pool probably belong. It's too frequent that I don't get double-white mana (and wasting a tutor on Eiganjo Castle is devastating). And, if I'm being totally honest, Rofellos's green mana doesn't do a whole lot for this deck (casts Jitte and Thrun?). I'm going to replace Rofellos with Lightning Greaves (yes, that absolutely would have helped in some of my games, I admit), and replacing a few basic lands with City of Brass and Reflecting Pool. So few basics now, may as well make Land Tax into Skullclamp while I'm at it.
I'm not quite at giving up on Rofellos, but I see where you're coming from.
On Greaves and Elixir, I think they're both good and as I noted, it is true that priority issues make greaves better with Sisay on the turn you play her, but as I said earlier (and I think you kind of came to this conclusion) this isn't a reason to play Elixir over Greaves. It's a reason to play both. Space is at a premium, but Greaves is an incredible card, and if you think Elixir is as good or better, you should be running both. Also, I dont know what red based decks you play against, but they can't ALWAYS have removal for EVERYTHING. I feel like every game Riley plays against a burn deck consists of his opponent drawing a hand of 3 mountains, 4 bolts, and just ripping bolts all game.
Saffi is insane and always has been. Great insurance card, works with CIP abilities, just a sick legend, no question. Never even thought about cutting him.
Being white screwed is a serious problem, and we should definitely consider the new lands. Let me know how the cutting rofellos and adding more duals plan works - it sounds good, but it also feels sad to cut the fellow. He does have his moments.
I do feel like we're honing in on an optimal build, which is nice, though debates on cards like Hokori and Prime Time that have raged forever will probably never be resolved. I think it takes casting Primeval only 1 time to realize that he's super busted in this deck, even if you're not ramping. There are so many utility lands, LD spells, and now (for me) manlands that it's really hard not to feel like you're just cheating when you cast the card. One of those must-counter parity-breakers that I've never been unhappy with.
On Greaves and Elixir, I think they're both good and as I noted, it is true that priority issues make greaves better with Sisay on the turn you play her, but as I said earlier (and I think you kind of came to this conclusion) this isn't a reason to play Elixir over Greaves. It's a reason to play both. Space is at a premium, but Greaves is an incredible card, and if you think Elixir is as good or better, you should be running both.
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This is exactly what I would have said next.
I like the changes. I think Rofellos is a very powerful card however and should be kept on the short list of cards that might deserve a slot still. Land Tax is in the same boat. It only needs to trigger once to make it good so the basic lound count doesn't matter too much. Plus keeping a one land hand on the play with Land Tax and missing your second land drop puts you in a better position then being on the draw does.
As for Primeval Titan, it's a great card. Not in every deck, but I think it is here because you have things to get other than just more mana. The ability to search for Wasteland effects, man lands, or something like Cradle makes him a threat that can win the game on his own. I don't think he is is nearly as universally good in French as in multiplayer though.
When playing Azusa, I've won so many games off the back of Prime Time (though not nearly as many as from Avenger of Scoopdikar, but still) for precisely the reasons you mention; his resolution means that I can pull ahead like crazy and blow up my opponent's duel lands in the meantime. As long as I'm playing smart, I can work around conditional counters and not give control players a time-walk by tapping 6 lands/dudes for P. Titan. I get away with playing Sun Titan so very very much in this format even again control decks (given that they have to counter/kill everything I present prior, y'know?), so I can't pretend that Prime Time is unplayable. In my very few Radha games, he was my go-to target after running pretty much the same ramp cards as I do in Sisay, fetching me Valakut and Kessig Wolf Run in two separate games, absolutely sealing the deal.
Having cut Land Tax in the past and really regretting it, I agree that 6 lands is enough to make it work better than the "roll the dice" nature of Skullclamp (and it has that "response to equip problem" I was talking about). Or do I want Wayfarer in that spot? I think I'll go with Tax. This'll help make Prime Time all the more castable.
Yeah, what the hell? I'll give him another shot. =P
But man, I wish he fit in more easily. Everything else I'm playing is testing very well, and even some of the more ostensibly dubious cards like Beast Within and Tariff shore up some huge weaknesses. Even Thrun, as "meh" as he often feels, has some very important uses against some of our toughest matchups. I think I'll see what I can do without Beast Within for a little while (though versatile, it again fails the Edric test), and try Prime Time in that spot.
I wish we had better spot removal options. I'm really hoping we get some amazing spoilers soon from the next set that show off some powerful white-washed cards or whatever it is MaRo hinted at. More useful graveyard hate for our build would be nice, too.
On a random note, Thalia has been awkward at times, and has been the obvious "pitch" card if I have Survival/Shaman active. I think she'd be substantially better if she were a 4-of, but alas. What are your guy's thoughts on Thalia?
And yes, on the topic of red decks on Cockatrice: it's often the case that they have creature-based burn dudes (Sharpshooter, Cannonade), all the playable spot removal cards, and/or multiple Pyroclasm cards. They are actually built to destroy every creature that hits the board, and yet... I have noticed that my opponents apologize to me a lot for their topdecks, as though they too are incredulous at how perfectly they're able to rip things that blow me out. I may emote more than the next opponent, but I'm encountering a lot of players who feel guilty about their insanely good luck. =P
I know; it's part of the game. A part of the game I happen to hate! That's why I play Sisay.
EDIT: I suppose I ought to be looking at Mindcensor with more scrutiny, too. However, I lose SO MANY GAMES to Demonic Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Survival, and even transmute cards that tutor up board sweeps. And, of course, Iname is an awful matchup. Even if a tiny tiny bit, I'd love to improve all those matchups.
I have pretty strong opinions on a lot of the cards you mentioned, so I'll go through them all.
Primeval Titan - Already stated this one. He's the nuts, and I'm happy to see you're giving him a shot: he's never disappointed.
Land Tax - I played this for a while and never liked it. The card is busted, but it's very high variance, and generally I'm not in a good place when I'm lagging on lands against my opponent. Unlike a lot of decks in the French meta, our deck kind of needs to hit its first few land drops in order to be good, and thinning isn't terribly relevant for us. I'd honestly rather have a land in this slot, since I'm pretty much always happier seeing a land than a land tax in my opener. This could be wrong, but I've never really been unhappy about my decision to cut it.
Thrun - This card is terrible, but I keep playing it. It has some cool applications, and I think is one of those cards that is better than you think it is when you're the one casting it (in that it gives your opponent some mental fits). I keep this card mostly for its synergy with equipment (which I think I rely on more than Riley) and its few good matchups, though I'm not generally happy with him. If some other better legends were printed, this guy would be cuttable for sure.
Beast Within - I'm totally sure this card is bad. Our deck is full of little dudes that can't block the token, and it Moats our team and makes cards like Jitte way worse in our deck. Essentially you take away (presumably) a very powerful permanent on their side, and replace it with a creature that's better than 90% of our own creatures in combat. Not worth a card or 3 mana.
Thalia - This card has been very awkward for me too, but I think it's been quite good. This is another one of those cards that is constantly screwing your opponent without you noticing. I had an interesting game against edric where I (unfortunately) ran out a t2 thalia that didn't die, and it proceeded to make all of my next draw steps (all non-creatures) more expensive. I was lamenting playing the card for a while, but it stuck around, I was able to cast protection, then Sisay, and ultimately won. After the game my opponent explained how his hand was just totally shut off by Thalia because he couldn't cast enough spells to generate the tempo he needed to get ahead, and once he told me the cards in his hand it wasn't that hard to see he was right. Pretty much, you have to be careful when you play her, but the effect is surprisingly relevant (and the first strike has been weirdly useful too), so I'm quite sure I'll be playing her for a long time.
Tariff - Hate this card, still have no clue why you play it :-P.
Wayfarer - Don't like this card either, for a lot of the same reasons as land tax. Turn 1 I want to be playing an accelerant or a protection-related creature, not some random dude who may not do anything (and even when he does stuff, eats up my mana: gross).
Mindcensor - I can't say enough good things about this card. I've won a countless number of games with it and (as hard as this may be to believe) it's been in all my best hands of late. Pretty much I've found that Sisay's best hands are the ones that look like Legacy Maverick hands, since you're the same deck with better late game (in Sisay) and the same level of removal/disruption. Hands like (Birds, land, land, knight, scryb ranger, mindcensor, path) are actually insane and make the game hard to lose, and a lot of it has to do with Mindcensor shutting off a lot of combos/outs your opponent can have to your fast and powerful start. The card has actually been so good that i've been actively thinking about ways to build Modern and Legacy decks that play more of him (though I'm still on the UWR delver train in modern, since I'm lazy). This card is absolutely never getting cut from my deck, and is in the top 10-15 cards that I would recommend to anyone playing Sisay (or really any semi-midrangey deck with white). If you've ever played against Mindcensor with Sisay, I think you'll realize how brutal the card can be. My record thus far against it is something like 1-5..
Random note: it was interesting that Riley mentioned fetching up Eiganjo Castle as a white source with Sisay. I tend to fetch up Flagstones instead most of the time unless I'm playing against aggro because of the combo potential with Safekeeper (I rarely ever activate the castle/have enough white to justify using 2 of to keep a castle activation up): just another random little quirk in how we play the deck differently, I suppose.
On a somewhat unrelated note, it looks like I'm moving to NY for a job for the next 2 years starting some time in July, so who knows, I may just run into you Riley
You guys just gave me this traumatic flashback where I mulled to four and kept a one land hand with Land Tax on the draw. My opponent used Mental Misstep. I didn't draw a land for 3 turns. I'm shuddering just thinking about it!!
(The only other game I've ever kept a one land hand was against a Clique player, and I had dorks and Great Sable Stag. That was a fun game!)
I know I've been down this road before, but I want to give playing 38 lands another shot (as opposed to running Land Tax, which is almost always a bad top deck where playing another land to recast the general would have been better, for example). Too frequently am I having to mulligan for a third land or just not getting anywhere after chancing a 2 land hand. I kind of want to try Krosan Verge. Is that dumb? I think I'll go with Mutavault. I've always been impressed with that card, watching it played by others. One less "destroy target permanent" effect" means I'm more vulnerable to Planeswalkers again, so Mutavault ought to help. A deck that starts the game with a hand of 4 lands, 2 spot removal cards, and Liliana of the Veil really wrecks this deck. And most decks, frankly.
Haha, I only said Eiganjo castle to exaggerate the depressingness of tutoring for white mana. 99% of the time, my target is Flagstones precisely for that reason. =P More often than not, I use Green Sun's Zenith for 1 to nab Safekeeper, so I love to give him as much gas as possible. I <3 Flagstones.
Your Mindcensor musings make me feel more confident about re-including it. I've certainly hated playing against it myself!
I'm the community organizer for the NYC casual meetup that happens every Monday night, so it's probably impossible for us not to meet each other. =P Check out our snazzy Facebook page! https://www.facebook.com/groups/NYCMagic/
great, good to know there's a place i'll be able to play some EDH in NYC. Is there a big 1v1 competitive scene, or not really?
I'm actually on 39 lands right now. I sort of realized that the games you're most likely to lose are the ones where you miss your first couple land drops (and of the first 3-4 really), and playing more spell-lands gives the deck less of a chance to just loose the game while retaining a sufficiently high spell-density. Don't really like mutavault, since I'm not really sure that a 2/2 justifies the colorless cost. I actually think Nantuko Monestary is strictly better in our deck (how often would you activate mutavault pre-threshold?).
great, good to know there's a place i'll be able to play some EDH in NYC. Is there a big 1v1 competitive scene, or not really?
I'm actually on 39 lands right now. I sort of realized that the games you're most likely to lose are the ones where you miss your first couple land drops (and of the first 3-4 really), and playing more spell-lands gives the deck less of a chance to just loose the game while retaining a sufficiently high spell-density. Don't really like mutavault, since I'm not really sure that a 2/2 justifies the colorless cost. I actually think Nantuko Monestary is strictly better in our deck (how often would you activate mutavault pre-threshold?).
There is no scene, sadly. I've tried to get it to spread, but players are reluctant to think about EDH in a different way and don't want to have to build entirely new decks for the one overzealous French advocate. =(
I have never GSZed for Safekeeper :-P
Weirdo! =P
But on that note... Steely Resolve has been absolutely amazingly better for me than Safekeeper, though they both really annoy the hell out of my opponents and are both worthy of a slot, Resolve is just better in the meta.
That's because the meta on Cockatrice just really really REALLY hates green weenies right now. I don't see this changing much as long as Edric keeps winning tournaments, sadly for us. That said, I'm caving in (given my terrible games as of late against all the revved up removal heavy decks) and running some different options that will leave me less vulnerable and more stable in the long run. I'm always preaching "stability > explosiveness" so I'm going to take that advice, even if fewer creatures means that I slow my Gaea's Cradle abuse by a turn or two.
Here's what I'll be testing for a long time, probably, maybe:
I can't express enough how much I HATE Oath of Druids and Humility. Only recently have these two cards combined forces in decks that are so meta-wrecking that I have no choice but to play better hate. And, in general, most awesome equipment or enchantments are being replayed from the graveyard, and my 1/1 dude is irrelevant. If I absolutely need to tutor for hate, I still have Pridemage.
I am getting blown out by most R/x decks especially, but black-based control decks aren't making me rage any less either; my dorks are dying horrible violent deaths and I keep finding myself stuck on 2 or 3 mana, or taking too long to get a 4th drop and losing in the process. I've played all of these cards in the past and loved them, but decided to go for an uber-synergized build that could utilize dorks more. Well that plan is failing hard, so I'd rather ramp in a more dependable way. Thrun's thrown up here because I needed a spot, and when do I ever tutor for Thrun? Prime Time's my new green bomb. And on the topic of stability:
There were one too many games where these topdecks prevented me from playing something absolutely necessary that turn while I was behind. That's a dealbreaker for me, even though the sac lands have been superb at other times. I don't like that sort of volatility in my deck.
That leaves me with 33 creatures, which is 1/3 of the deck. Should be plenty? Mutavault is testing well, and did exactly what I needed it to do in one game, which is attack a Planeswalker. The one thing I'd still really love to have is another, decent white removal card, preferably one that exiles. Here's hoping.
I'll let y'all know how these changes go, as always.
The point I'm trying to make is that Azusa is actually really really slow compared to Sisay. Because we run more dorks and have a more consistent plan to abuse Gaea's Cradle with said dorks (and plenty of utility creatures), we usually outramp Azusa, better, faster, and more assuredly.
Sisay ramps more efficiently for the early game, and that's what matters here: ramping into our general means that we can start tutoring up Silver Bullets asap. Teeg really dominates this matchup, as shutting off our opponent's Tooth and Nail, Green Sun's Zenith, All is Dust, and Planeswalkers means that our opponent loses almost all of his draw power, all of his tutor power, and all of his removal.
I don't recommend wasting removal on Azusa. The most likely scenario (having piloted her extensively myself) is that your opponent will cast Azusa on turn 3 and then dump out 2 lands--which are ALL the lands remaining in the hand. If the Azusa player is lucky, he'll have a few cards left in hand, hopefully one of which is a big bomb (which still can't yet be cast that turn, and possibly not for several turns after) or a tutor for a bomb (which still can't yet be cast that turn, and possibly not for several turns after). Because Azusa plays too few threats overall given the rather bleh availability of playable/impactful green/mono-colored bombs, you should be running plenty of removal to deal with the slow once-per-turn threat that enters the battlefield. Fiend Hunter on anything is probably GG for your opponent.
The most annoying thing that the Azusa player will likely do before the late-game (supposing they survive that long through all your disruption-turned-threats, which is like half your deck) is cast Avenger of Zendikar. It's almost always the best tutor target. Guess what? You can goldfish into Elesh Norn quicker than they can cast Avenger, and then all is well in the world. Speaking of the abundance of removal you have, Sisay is better at dealing with degenerate enchantments (eg, Survival) better than any other deck in the format, both because of redundancy of answers and sheer tutoring power, so you're well positioned to outright stop nearly all of the annoying things Azusa could possibly throw at you.
Also, of course, if you're still running Loyal Retainers (perfectly valid thing to do), you can win this matchup as early as turn 3. But as I've emphasized elsewhere, quick wins aren't everything. Sisay more often than not just sets up-hinders-answers-disrupts for several turns and then goes ka-sploosh and wins by a blowout. Given Azusa's terribly inconsistent gameplan and lack of available draw power, this matchup shouldn't be very difficult for an optimized Sisay deck at all.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
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This plus the statement about Sisay being faster early game pretty much spells defeat for Azusa. Elesh Norn should lock up this matchup, especially when it comes down faster for Sisay than anything to scary on the other side of the board. I don't think Azusa is nearly the monster in French as it is in multiplayer. Sisay essentially draws 2 cards a turn. Azusa only gets 1 and its green.
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You guys were generally right about the LD. I still don't think it's bad, but I do think that it's a little unnecessary and, as some people said, not good enough unless you get it at the right point. I'm going to try the following changes:
-1 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
-1 Plow Under
-1 Dust Bowl
+1 Explore - I've been meaning to try this out for a while, and it seems like it does a lot of things I like a 2 drop to do. Drawing cards is nice, ramping is nice, and I absolutely loved this card in Standard, so I'd be surprised if I didn't like it here. I'm also playing 39 lands now (since missing land drops is one of the easiest ways to get smashed with Sisay), so it'll be better.
+1 Ghostly Prison - I've found myself wishing I had this in my deck a number of times now, and I think it's time to give it a go. I have a couple ways to tutor it out, and it's good enough in enough matchups that I'm okay with drawing it usually. The matchup against aggressive decks is definitely one of the sketchier things about Sisay, and resolving this card against something like Ismaru or Edric makes them either not pressure you as much or not cast as many spells, which can buy enough time to get your power cards online (mostly just Norn, of course)
+1 Windbrisk Heights - Yeah, I've absolutely raged against tap lands in the past, but I think it's time to give in and try one. I don't like the manlands still, since I dont think i'd almost ever activate them, but this card seems sweet. My deck is pretty threat dense, so I feel reasonably confident that I can hit something reasonable most of the time, and the chance of hitting a titan or Norn or something is always there, making this card very dangerous. It's also generally not that hard to swing with 3 creatures... Obviously this might change if I don't like how this card plays, but it seems interesting enough to try.
As always, thoughts are encouraged! You guys keep my stupid ideas in check ;-)
My List here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/sisay-edh-3/
I'm sure there are more, but this should get you started if you want to look into this.
I'd play just about anything that's proven competitive in the French meta, in addition to the enchantments we're already running:
1 Wild Growth
1 Exploration
1 Land Tax
1 Limited Resources
1 Sterling Grove
1 Journey to Nowhere
1 Lignify
1 Steely Resolve
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Aura Shards
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Enchantress's Presence
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Academy Rector
1 Serra's Sanctum
Wheel of Sun and Moon, Story Circle, Rule of Law, Seal of Cleansing, Aura of Silence, Nevermore, Elephant Grass, City of Solitude, Runed Halo, Rancor, Parallax Wave, Humility, and Mirri's Guile are also all worth consideration if you want to go full-on enchantress. Of course, you'd also probably want to add the other 3 Enchantress creatures, though I'm not a big fan considering how much easier they are to remove.
Also, with the increased emphasis on fetching enchantments, you can abuse Survival of the Fittest more reliably than most decks. This means that you'd also want to be running Loyal Retainers and Iona, Shield of Emeria for easy wins against a good number of decks.
Give it a shot! Let us know how it works out for you. I think you could tailor the enchantment theme to your meta (especially with a lot of the other suggestions listed there) and be a strong contender. It's not particularly easy to pull off in EDH, but Sisay can put a lot of pressure on opponents otherwise and take advantage of some great ramp cards to blast herself into the end game.
EDIT: Oh hi there, Merdock! Lol, good suggestions. I've seen firsthand Luminarch Ascenscion work in the French meta, and I forgot about Squirrel Nest and Earthcraft, something that Teeg decks are still fond of doing to steal wins.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
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First off, I think we need somewhere between 37-40 mana-producing lands. I'm not going to settle on a number yet, but we'll aim for somewhere in there. As far as must-play lands go, I think we have these. These are lands I've never questioned seriously, and whose potential drawbacks I think are far outweighed by their positive attributes.
The following are lands I think we could be playing. This doesn't include lands that run out of counters or that get sacrificed/can lose you mana for weird reasons (City of Traitors, Scorched Ruins) since I'm quite sure these aren't worth it. Anything else that's even slightly possible is on this list, though I'm not sure I got ALL of the colorless options (it's pretty hard to find a good way to search for those):
Out of these lands, I think these are good enough to consider. I've added some borderline playables in here, but these are cards that I think are at least worth discussing (including some new gems I think I may actually try/never knew about). I tried to avoid taplands that only do mana fixing, since I'm quite sure those are worse than basics. Also, I already play some of these cards, but think they have not been SO phenomenal that they're worth throwing back down here. Some, like Horizon Canopy, will almost certainly make it back in anyway.
Of these, I think the cards that I don't already play that should definitely be under consideration (colorless manlands not included, since those are pretty debatable/easy to remember) are:
There are also the options of cycling lands, other, worse manlands, etc. Thoughts?
My current manabase is as follows, since I probably messed something up/missed some of these somehow. It's 39 lands at the moment.
Of these, I could see myself realistically cutting any number of forests/plains (as necessary), Windbrisk Heights, Eiganjo Castle, Rishadan Port, Ancient Tomb, and Homeward Path, though it would take a lot for any of those to happen (except Port, which has been mediocre).
Based on ALL of this, I'd have to say that the cards I am most considering are Nantuko Monastery, Petrified Field, City of Brass, and Deserted Temple. I'm also strongly considering Maze of Ith (as a spell), and returning Crop Rotation to the deck. I'm still not sold on most of the manlands, but would be interested in hearing thoughts an arguments on them, particularly the non-colorless ones. I'm not sure how often/when I'd really activate them, but they're definitely worth considering.
Thoughts?
-1 Rishadan Port, +1 Deserted Temple
-1 Forest, +1 Treetop Village
-1 Plains, +1 Stirring Wildwood
-1 Yosei, the Morning Star, +1 Mana Tithe
-1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence, +1 Condemn
-1 Plains, +1 Kor Haven
-1 Reveillark, +1 Last Breath
I ran this combo for many many moons, but I found that it was better suited for both a deck that wanted to go all in on Survival (and thus spoke to an older version of the deck that had more enchantment tutoring and combos and thus significantly worse matchups vs top tier decks, most of which were multi-colored and with plenty o' counters) and for a meta that is comprised mostly of experimental, mono-colored, C-Tiered decks. Certainly, I still watch this combo steal many wins in various G/W decks, and it can at times resolve even against top tier decks with blue in them and make them pretty sad, but ultimately I found it to be not good enough for my build that curves so beautifully and can win exceedingly well without any over-the-top tricks. That we have to dedicate narrow cards to our decks like Insist or Gaea's Herald to ensure that combos resolve against most top tier decks is reason enough not to run these two cards, IMO. If I were to chance any combo at all for a competitive meta, it would probably be to re-include Living Plane.
As aforementioned, it's really only decks with Blue backup or Black targeted discard that can dream of being top tier decks with combo plans in the French competitive meta (or Karador with its option of recasting combo pieces infinitely). As Sisay has neither option, she's best suited as a threat-dense toolbox, each and every permanent making your opponent groan with despair.
Merdock: I hope you stick with Mana Tithe! That card has never let me down. Condemn failed the "does it deal with Edric?" test, so I swapped it out.
Great land breakdown. I've tried out just about every stinkin' one of them that looked remotely viable. The only lands I'm still not 110% certain on are the tap-sac lands, but they've yet to really let me down like I expect they will. Moar testing needed.
There are times I miss Kor Haven. Rare times, but it's certainly has its uses. I might be just about perfect with my color balance and I'm not having any issues with there being too many colorless lands preventing me from casting spells, so I'm afraid to mess with it. Shrugsville.
On a totally unrelated note, I tried to make an Emrakul deck. I hadn't made a decision that bad since I drank Tequila, Beer, and Wine in the same night. Colorless decks are terrible.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
Back on topic:
Check out the sheer dominance of G/W Maverick at the latest SCG Open:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2012-03-25&end_date=2012-03-25&event_ID=20&city=baltimore
Given the way our builds have evolved over time, I think it's 100% accurate to call Sisay the G/W Maverick deck for French EDH, with its sexy mix of removal and efficiently costed creatures that both disrupt and beat face. I should sneak that into the OP.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
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+ Loyal Retainers (- Skullclamp)
+ Thousand-Year Elixir (- Lightning Greaves)
+ Pendelhaven (- Forest)
I know, I'm going back on my word from just a few days ago, but if Retainers is good enough for Legacy, it's definitely good enough for EDH considering how absolutely killer a fast Norn is. Also, of course, Retainers works with a lot of other cards in our deck, so he's not exactly a dead draw.
Increasingly more these days, my attempts to equip greaves are met with a dead creature in response. Also, greaves are quickly becoming the telltale sign of a casual deck. They're still awesome for this deck when they work, but I find myself not ever tutoring for them when given the chance given the obvious drawback. Giving Sisay haste and the potential to tap twice the turn she comes into play as a static ability should be great in the spot removal-heavy meta. I've got a good feeling.
Pendelhaven makes sense. We have 12 1/1 creatures that could use the boost and thus give us some strength vs weenie decks in the early game, give us the potential to boost a guy past pyroclasm effects, and screw over our opponent's Jitte-wipe plans. I've seen it played in a few really great decks recently and it's absolutely not bad. It does weaken our Rofellos and Arbor Elf ever so slightly, but it shouldn't be too noticeable.
What do y'all think?
Also reconsidering Aven Mindcensor, since he shows up in a ton of top Legacy Maverick decks as well. In the top tier meta, he's bound to screw over players fetching for lands, and of course tutors and Survival are really prevalent. I might free up a slot for him again soon. Only against casual and lower-tier mono-colored decks have I ever seen him be a swing and a miss.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
Pendelhaven is fine. If you're getting into a lot of small creature combat, it's obviously good, but I've found that doesnt happen all that much for me, and I'd never really use it.
Let me know how Retainers goes, I've never tested it.
I made a bunch of changes to my list recently, so feel free to check it out now.
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Strongly agree with this statement. Greaves is the nuts, though it's possible that Riley doesn't play the right cards to abuse it. I've had many opponents just quit when I play a Primeval with Greaves in play. It also lets you dump hands full of mana dorks when necessary, or haste up a dryad arbor so it taps for mana, or haste a Sun Titan, etc. etc. Too much value to cut it, honestly.
I've only had one and a half sets to test so far, and both were against Olivia Control, a sort of nightmare matchup for this deck; it was jam-packed with all the best spot removal cards, multiple board sweepers, and the Edicts (as well as all the 1cmc discard effects, but that's beside the point albeit also annoying). Short of Steely Resolve, there's absolutely no way Sisay would have untapped to do her thing if I had used a tutor on Greaves, especially after Olivia resolves (ARGH). Every single thing we cast mana on and attempt to do can be stopped at instant speed against these nightmare decks that have Fire Covenant (aaaarrrrrghhhh!).
I'm in the business of making a primer that beats the best decks in the meta and especially the decks that hose us hard. R/B decks packing tons of spot removal are a terrible matchup for us, even with a turn 1 Sylvan Safekeeper (haha, but let's not make the mistake of thinking that this is a unique Sisay problem; Edric and Animar and most other tier 1 decks are hosed hard[er] by theses sorts of builds, too). If the meta is waiting for me equip my greaves and blowing me out because I wasted 4 mana on a G/W Bear with nice boobs, then I have to think of new ways to make my bear do its thing. Elixir ensures that Sisay will tutor up something valuable, something greaves can no longer promise.
To be sure, in the one game that Elixir came down, it was insanely good. No doubt, getting Cradle and Teeg in the same turn is insanely overpowered, or Jitte and Saffi, or a second White mana and Norn. Subsequent re-casts were equally exasperating for my opponent, who had answers in hand but couldn't stop my tutoring.
To Sensei's point:
That's what I'm saying! =P
Of course they're going to use it. The point is that it's something I've come to take for granted when playing the best decks on Cockatrice, that Sisay will die unless shrouded by Mother, Safekeeper, or Resolve. When she doesn't die without protection or in response to equipping greaves? I feel profoundly blessed by the Magic gods. That's how rare of an occasion this is. I'm not exaggerating; in a meta teeming with Edrics and the occasional Zurs and Infect Rafiq and on and on--all good decks are packing the best instant speed removal options (this is what makes Animar and Geist such pervasive bastards).
This isn't to say I wouldn't run both, but space is a huge premium. I actually dropped Wayfarer in place of Elixir (and not Clamp as I said above, which had been out for a while but not reflected in the OP). That one pains me, but alas! Abusing the general is what this format is about, ultimately, and Elixir hastes all my dorks (including arbor). Increasingly more, I'm finding that stability trumps explosiveness in this meta the majority of the time. If I want to build a tournament winning deck, then I have to expect to face tournament-caliber opponents who are ready to kill Sisay the first time she's cast and, often, then some.
All that said, I'll still have to test out Elixir more and, as evidenced by half my posts in this thread, no decisions are final.
EDIT: I guess, in a nutshell what I'm saying is that greaves on a Titan is AWESOME, but Elixir on Sisay is necessary. We're not going for awesome but for whatever works.
On a related note, Saffi is testing superbly well. She's a better greaves. ;P
EDIT 2: Some really awful test games today. Played against a 5cc Oath deck and a mass destruction control Jhoira (that's two decks taking full advantage of the Emrakul unbanning), and these types of decks are of course stupidly good vs. one with no control magic. Sigh. I also played against a Karador deck that just had everything go right for it, including a turn 3 Iona. I managed to load up the board with Green Creatures, but my opponent Damnation'd into Karmic Guide to replay Iona. I could have played Teeg on turn 2. My bad?
I glossed over Sensei's point about a few auto-include lands earlier, but I think I have to agree: City of Brass and Reflecting Pool probably belong. It's too frequent that I don't get double-white mana (and wasting a tutor on Eiganjo Castle is devastating). And, if I'm being totally honest, Rofellos's green mana doesn't do a whole lot for this deck (casts Jitte and Thrun?). I'm going to replace Rofellos with Lightning Greaves (yes, that absolutely would have helped in some of my games, I admit), and replacing a few basic lands with City of Brass and Reflecting Pool. So few basics now, may as well make Land Tax into Skullclamp while I'm at it.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
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On Greaves and Elixir, I think they're both good and as I noted, it is true that priority issues make greaves better with Sisay on the turn you play her, but as I said earlier (and I think you kind of came to this conclusion) this isn't a reason to play Elixir over Greaves. It's a reason to play both. Space is at a premium, but Greaves is an incredible card, and if you think Elixir is as good or better, you should be running both. Also, I dont know what red based decks you play against, but they can't ALWAYS have removal for EVERYTHING. I feel like every game Riley plays against a burn deck consists of his opponent drawing a hand of 3 mountains, 4 bolts, and just ripping bolts all game.
Saffi is insane and always has been. Great insurance card, works with CIP abilities, just a sick legend, no question. Never even thought about cutting him.
Being white screwed is a serious problem, and we should definitely consider the new lands. Let me know how the cutting rofellos and adding more duals plan works - it sounds good, but it also feels sad to cut the fellow. He does have his moments.
I do feel like we're honing in on an optimal build, which is nice, though debates on cards like Hokori and Prime Time that have raged forever will probably never be resolved. I think it takes casting Primeval only 1 time to realize that he's super busted in this deck, even if you're not ramping. There are so many utility lands, LD spells, and now (for me) manlands that it's really hard not to feel like you're just cheating when you cast the card. One of those must-counter parity-breakers that I've never been unhappy with.
This is exactly what I would have said next.
I like the changes. I think Rofellos is a very powerful card however and should be kept on the short list of cards that might deserve a slot still. Land Tax is in the same boat. It only needs to trigger once to make it good so the basic lound count doesn't matter too much. Plus keeping a one land hand on the play with Land Tax and missing your second land drop puts you in a better position then being on the draw does.
As for Primeval Titan, it's a great card. Not in every deck, but I think it is here because you have things to get other than just more mana. The ability to search for Wasteland effects, man lands, or something like Cradle makes him a threat that can win the game on his own. I don't think he is is nearly as universally good in French as in multiplayer though.
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Having cut Land Tax in the past and really regretting it, I agree that 6 lands is enough to make it work better than the "roll the dice" nature of Skullclamp (and it has that "response to equip problem" I was talking about). Or do I want Wayfarer in that spot? I think I'll go with Tax. This'll help make Prime Time all the more castable.
Yeah, what the hell? I'll give him another shot. =P
But man, I wish he fit in more easily. Everything else I'm playing is testing very well, and even some of the more ostensibly dubious cards like Beast Within and Tariff shore up some huge weaknesses. Even Thrun, as "meh" as he often feels, has some very important uses against some of our toughest matchups. I think I'll see what I can do without Beast Within for a little while (though versatile, it again fails the Edric test), and try Prime Time in that spot.
I wish we had better spot removal options. I'm really hoping we get some amazing spoilers soon from the next set that show off some powerful white-washed cards or whatever it is MaRo hinted at. More useful graveyard hate for our build would be nice, too.
On a random note, Thalia has been awkward at times, and has been the obvious "pitch" card if I have Survival/Shaman active. I think she'd be substantially better if she were a 4-of, but alas. What are your guy's thoughts on Thalia?
And yes, on the topic of red decks on Cockatrice: it's often the case that they have creature-based burn dudes (Sharpshooter, Cannonade), all the playable spot removal cards, and/or multiple Pyroclasm cards. They are actually built to destroy every creature that hits the board, and yet... I have noticed that my opponents apologize to me a lot for their topdecks, as though they too are incredulous at how perfectly they're able to rip things that blow me out. I may emote more than the next opponent, but I'm encountering a lot of players who feel guilty about their insanely good luck. =P
I know; it's part of the game. A part of the game I happen to hate! That's why I play Sisay.
EDIT: I suppose I ought to be looking at Mindcensor with more scrutiny, too. However, I lose SO MANY GAMES to Demonic Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Survival, and even transmute cards that tutor up board sweeps. And, of course, Iname is an awful matchup. Even if a tiny tiny bit, I'd love to improve all those matchups.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
Primeval Titan - Already stated this one. He's the nuts, and I'm happy to see you're giving him a shot: he's never disappointed.
Land Tax - I played this for a while and never liked it. The card is busted, but it's very high variance, and generally I'm not in a good place when I'm lagging on lands against my opponent. Unlike a lot of decks in the French meta, our deck kind of needs to hit its first few land drops in order to be good, and thinning isn't terribly relevant for us. I'd honestly rather have a land in this slot, since I'm pretty much always happier seeing a land than a land tax in my opener. This could be wrong, but I've never really been unhappy about my decision to cut it.
Thrun - This card is terrible, but I keep playing it. It has some cool applications, and I think is one of those cards that is better than you think it is when you're the one casting it (in that it gives your opponent some mental fits). I keep this card mostly for its synergy with equipment (which I think I rely on more than Riley) and its few good matchups, though I'm not generally happy with him. If some other better legends were printed, this guy would be cuttable for sure.
Beast Within - I'm totally sure this card is bad. Our deck is full of little dudes that can't block the token, and it Moats our team and makes cards like Jitte way worse in our deck. Essentially you take away (presumably) a very powerful permanent on their side, and replace it with a creature that's better than 90% of our own creatures in combat. Not worth a card or 3 mana.
Thalia - This card has been very awkward for me too, but I think it's been quite good. This is another one of those cards that is constantly screwing your opponent without you noticing. I had an interesting game against edric where I (unfortunately) ran out a t2 thalia that didn't die, and it proceeded to make all of my next draw steps (all non-creatures) more expensive. I was lamenting playing the card for a while, but it stuck around, I was able to cast protection, then Sisay, and ultimately won. After the game my opponent explained how his hand was just totally shut off by Thalia because he couldn't cast enough spells to generate the tempo he needed to get ahead, and once he told me the cards in his hand it wasn't that hard to see he was right. Pretty much, you have to be careful when you play her, but the effect is surprisingly relevant (and the first strike has been weirdly useful too), so I'm quite sure I'll be playing her for a long time.
Tariff - Hate this card, still have no clue why you play it :-P.
Wayfarer - Don't like this card either, for a lot of the same reasons as land tax. Turn 1 I want to be playing an accelerant or a protection-related creature, not some random dude who may not do anything (and even when he does stuff, eats up my mana: gross).
Mindcensor - I can't say enough good things about this card. I've won a countless number of games with it and (as hard as this may be to believe) it's been in all my best hands of late. Pretty much I've found that Sisay's best hands are the ones that look like Legacy Maverick hands, since you're the same deck with better late game (in Sisay) and the same level of removal/disruption. Hands like (Birds, land, land, knight, scryb ranger, mindcensor, path) are actually insane and make the game hard to lose, and a lot of it has to do with Mindcensor shutting off a lot of combos/outs your opponent can have to your fast and powerful start. The card has actually been so good that i've been actively thinking about ways to build Modern and Legacy decks that play more of him (though I'm still on the UWR delver train in modern, since I'm lazy). This card is absolutely never getting cut from my deck, and is in the top 10-15 cards that I would recommend to anyone playing Sisay (or really any semi-midrangey deck with white). If you've ever played against Mindcensor with Sisay, I think you'll realize how brutal the card can be. My record thus far against it is something like 1-5..
Random note: it was interesting that Riley mentioned fetching up Eiganjo Castle as a white source with Sisay. I tend to fetch up Flagstones instead most of the time unless I'm playing against aggro because of the combo potential with Safekeeper (I rarely ever activate the castle/have enough white to justify using 2 of to keep a castle activation up): just another random little quirk in how we play the deck differently, I suppose.
On a somewhat unrelated note, it looks like I'm moving to NY for a job for the next 2 years starting some time in July, so who knows, I may just run into you Riley
(The only other game I've ever kept a one land hand was against a Clique player, and I had dorks and Great Sable Stag. That was a fun game!)
I know I've been down this road before, but I want to give playing 38 lands another shot (as opposed to running Land Tax, which is almost always a bad top deck where playing another land to recast the general would have been better, for example). Too frequently am I having to mulligan for a third land or just not getting anywhere after chancing a 2 land hand. I kind of want to try Krosan Verge. Is that dumb? I think I'll go with Mutavault. I've always been impressed with that card, watching it played by others. One less "destroy target permanent" effect" means I'm more vulnerable to Planeswalkers again, so Mutavault ought to help. A deck that starts the game with a hand of 4 lands, 2 spot removal cards, and Liliana of the Veil really wrecks this deck. And most decks, frankly.
Haha, I only said Eiganjo castle to exaggerate the depressingness of tutoring for white mana. 99% of the time, my target is Flagstones precisely for that reason. =P More often than not, I use Green Sun's Zenith for 1 to nab Safekeeper, so I love to give him as much gas as possible. I <3 Flagstones.
Your Mindcensor musings make me feel more confident about re-including it. I've certainly hated playing against it myself!
I'm the community organizer for the NYC casual meetup that happens every Monday night, so it's probably impossible for us not to meet each other. =P Check out our snazzy Facebook page! https://www.facebook.com/groups/NYCMagic/
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
I'm actually on 39 lands right now. I sort of realized that the games you're most likely to lose are the ones where you miss your first couple land drops (and of the first 3-4 really), and playing more spell-lands gives the deck less of a chance to just loose the game while retaining a sufficiently high spell-density. Don't really like mutavault, since I'm not really sure that a 2/2 justifies the colorless cost. I actually think Nantuko Monestary is strictly better in our deck (how often would you activate mutavault pre-threshold?).
I have never GSZed for Safekeeper :-P
There is no scene, sadly. I've tried to get it to spread, but players are reluctant to think about EDH in a different way and don't want to have to build entirely new decks for the one overzealous French advocate. =(
Weirdo! =P
But on that note... Steely Resolve has been absolutely amazingly better for me than Safekeeper, though they both really annoy the hell out of my opponents and are both worthy of a slot, Resolve is just better in the meta.
That's because the meta on Cockatrice just really really REALLY hates green weenies right now. I don't see this changing much as long as Edric keeps winning tournaments, sadly for us. That said, I'm caving in (given my terrible games as of late against all the revved up removal heavy decks) and running some different options that will leave me less vulnerable and more stable in the long run. I'm always preaching "stability > explosiveness" so I'm going to take that advice, even if fewer creatures means that I slow my Gaea's Cradle abuse by a turn or two.
Here's what I'll be testing for a long time, probably, maybe:
+ Revoke Existence
- Harmonic Sliver
I can't express enough how much I HATE Oath of Druids and Humility. Only recently have these two cards combined forces in decks that are so meta-wrecking that I have no choice but to play better hate. And, in general, most awesome equipment or enchantments are being replayed from the graveyard, and my 1/1 dude is irrelevant. If I absolutely need to tutor for hate, I still have Pridemage.
And now for our next set of changes:
+ Nature's Lore
+ Three Visits
+ Explore
- Arbor Elf
- Bloom Tender
- Thrun, the Last Troll
I am getting blown out by most R/x decks especially, but black-based control decks aren't making me rage any less either; my dorks are dying horrible violent deaths and I keep finding myself stuck on 2 or 3 mana, or taking too long to get a 4th drop and losing in the process. I've played all of these cards in the past and loved them, but decided to go for an uber-synergized build that could utilize dorks more. Well that plan is failing hard, so I'd rather ramp in a more dependable way. Thrun's thrown up here because I needed a spot, and when do I ever tutor for Thrun? Prime Time's my new green bomb. And on the topic of stability:
+ Plains
+ Forest
- Ruins of Trokair
- Havenwood Battleground
There were one too many games where these topdecks prevented me from playing something absolutely necessary that turn while I was behind. That's a dealbreaker for me, even though the sac lands have been superb at other times. I don't like that sort of volatility in my deck.
That leaves me with 33 creatures, which is 1/3 of the deck. Should be plenty? Mutavault is testing well, and did exactly what I needed it to do in one game, which is attack a Planeswalker. The one thing I'd still really love to have is another, decent white removal card, preferably one that exiles. Here's hoping.
I'll let y'all know how these changes go, as always.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread