If your deck is only going to have one answer to Emrakul (besides killing quickly in general), it's probably better if that answer is an enchantment and not a creature.
I just wanted to say that I am very impressed with the progress you have made with this deck thus far. You have been consistently honest about the weaknesses of this deck and done everything you could to improve them. Not only is that rare in and of itself, but even rarer that honesty has actually created a stronger deck. I can say from first hand experience that Sisay is indeed much less vulnerable to removal, and a much more difficult deck to combat in general because of your work. Keep it up.
Thank you, sir! Your endorsement means a lot to me. =)
For those who aren't Evergreen (and who missed our sets last night), I actually took some games on his Iname deck! Evergreen is one of the deckbuilers who has substantially tweaked his deck to combat the aggro-control meta (an "extinction" build, I keep calling it), so traditionally my creature-based Sisay stood very little chance against him unless he was land-screwed or something. Winning any games against an Iname deck with so much creature hate and only one counter spell in our deck is no easy task, so I do believe my deck is heading in the right direction for a super hate-y meta.
I'm very slowly reaching some kind of equilibrium, whittling my creature pool down to only the best handful of utilty/ramp/game-ending creatures (currently down to 28, perhaps an all-time low). I think it was Hunter245 way back when who made certain accusations about my sanity for not playing all the utility lands that Sisay is known for, and I have to agree with him now; those lands of old are testing extremely well in my latest build. With those lands, I've also reintroduced better tutoring so that I can put the right ones into play for the job.
To tease some of those changes: World Queller and Llanowar Reborn are in my current build. I'm really trying to think outside of the box here, and both are doing what I need them to do in testing (deal with hexproof creatures and planeswalkers and one-of equipment or problematic enchantments and curve nicely between my 4 and 6 drops, and the other makes sure Sisay survives through Pyroclasm, Infest, and various other 2 damage effects).
On a related note, I managed to best Thrax in a set! This was a previously hopeless matchup, given that it's ENTIRELY built to hate on aggro. Personal triumph, there.
So yeah, as expected, the deck has lost some of its explosiveness with all the dorks and maybe possibly getting Norn out a bit sooner, but Norn isn't even super relevant in many matchups in the current meta (but still relevant in a majority). It's better that I lay the groundwork for taking control of the midgame without being vulnerable to sweeps. I may even take out Dryad Arbor, as this has always been very susceptible and seems worse than an Elf given that it ties up a land drop as well as not tapping the turn it comes into play. I've got better things to do with GSZ, anyhow.
Note to self: stop trying to play Elspeth when Teeg is in play, and stop trying to target my creatures with equipment who are shrouded. Must pay more attention for the tournament!! No more bonehead mistakes.
Definitely a good analogy for the defense of creatures that "die to removal." I think, ultimately though, that French EDH is different than other formats in that there are entire viable archetypes built around the idea that all you have to do is delay the game while your guaranteed win condition waits on the sidelines and, while everything else is singleton, you effectively have infinite general cards in the deck (it's something like Storm in Legacy, with building up to using the Sideboard). It's like every game begins with Leyline of Demonic Tutor, and for some decks this means that they can just play pure control and card advantage for a few turns, and these decks are growing fast in popularity. "Dies to removal" is a particularly strong defense right now against playing creature heavy decks on Cockatrice. I've actually given up playing good-stuff Edric on Cockatrice because there seems to be no way to tweak him to stand a chance against the best of the extinction builds (since he needs lots of creatures to be at all effective).
Anyway, Scavenging Ooze dies to removal, but he's good enough to run and arguably still better than, say, Morningtide. He's a much better Tarmogoyf. ;P
...
Maybe I should run Mornigtide, too. >_>
That is, all of our creatures arguably need immediate impact, which still makes creatures like Linvala a champion. I keep wanting to play those other versatile Legendary cards like Mangara again but.. argh slowness.
I think a lot of the difference in opinion between Riley and I comes from our different perspectives. I play a lot of regular tournament magic, and that is where I tend to focus my time (and my metagame knowledge). These days, this means Modern and Standard in particular. Playing in major constructed events has taught me that, if you don't know the format as well as you might like to (as is certainly the case for me in 1v1 EDH), you should play the best, most proactive deck you can. A lot of people take this to mean burn, but really it means you just need to play a deck with a plan. Going into a modern event knowing nothing about the metagame playing Faeries or Gifts Control is asking to get smashed. As a result, my EDH deck tends to be as proactive as I can make it. Obviously as an uber spike I try to keep it as tuned as I can, but when offered a choice between a more defensive and a more proactive card, I'll always pick the latter. My defensive cards I prefer to be cheap and high utility (Nature's Claim is my favorite example, a card that has been such a highlight of this deck since I started playing it despite being so seemingly innocuous) while my aggressive cards need to be dangerous and force responses from my opponents. At the very least, I think a build like that will force your opponent to "have it" multiple times in a match. With a more fine tuned understanding of the meta, it is likely possible to play a game of percentages and try to eke out small advantages with finely tuned card choices, but I'd argue that this requires an extremely good understanding of the deck you're facing and of how to play your own deck near flawlessly. It will be better in the end (generally) than the proactive approach, but usually only narrowly because you never risks in your gameplay if you can avoid it. There is also the potential (and I did this back when I played Next Level Bant - shudder) to over-metagame, and play a deck that is so good against the format that it's just bad.
So in the end, if you're going to play 1v1 EDH a lot and very competitively, listening to Riley is probably a good idea. If you're not, and want a competitive Sisay deck that you can probably just pick up and play pretty well in 1v1 against the vast majority of good, serious players that may not be flawless for winning a 1v1 tourney, I think my list is a good choice (though Riley's is probably also fine for this).
That being said, World Queller? I hope that's a joke.
Thraxiherpderp: (Notable player: Herpnormality)
Outlook: IMPOSSIBLE TO LOSE
How to: Berate your opponent's choice of general as those colors clash sooo horribly (like, ew, blue on red is sooo last season). Proceed to whip out your giant.. angels. WIN.
Thanks, Bennet! That's definitely been one of my goals with the thread, to provide piercing insight into the variant. Glad you're finding it all useful.
Clique is obnoxious for the majority of decks, but it's very tenuous for Clique players at the same time if they're playing against an equally tuned deck. By that I mean there is a lot of luck involved on the part of the Clique player in terms of what precise answers they need in order to start their gameplan of "counter everything." For instance, if you're packing any reasonable amount of mana dorks and you're on the play, you might just plain win if the Clique player doesn't have Mental Misstep. The Clique player isn't likely to power out Clique on turn 3 (as long as you keep providing counter fodder), so Thrun can really steal this matchup before he can Hinder it. The same goes for Great Sable Stag (if you're playing him, which is still a pretty great meta option imo), which singlehandedly wins the game if cast on turn 2. Again, the Clique player has outs (Maze of Ith and Shackles), but the odds aren't as much in their favor as they are for you, given your very cheap tutors and your consistent ramp.
But yeah, it's definitely not an easy matchup. We're a little more threat dense and a little more blue-hatey than most decks, so we've got an easier time than most, but if Clique can counter your first handful of spells, the balance of counters and searches for counters makes your life extremely difficult for the remainder of the game if nothing managed to stick early. Play aggressively! I hold nothing back in this matchup. I think, "He's gotta run out of counters eventually, right?" The more suited your build is for aggro, the better time you'll have (I think I'd do worse now with my current iteration, given the change to getting to the mid-game safely as opposed to explosively to improve most of my other matchups, but c'est la vie).
ALRIGHT GUYS!! Let's talk about new cards since the set is fully spoiled. There are a few I think we can put into the deck:
So far, the amount of dorks to "other ramp" options seems to be fairly balanced for me, but this card is a MUST. The restriction on Utopia Sprawl (forest only) is lame, so I think this replaces Sprawl for sure. Cantrips and can go on a basic Plains is kind of amazingly awesome. I wish there was a functional Llanowar Elves reprint that cantrips, oh man!
Hexproof is broken. Can't be sacrificed, either? Err, okay. Seems fair! My build presently has zero 5 drops, and this card just makes so much sense. It can be tutored and it can end games handily. What's not to like? I might take out Primeval Titan for this. My testing of that Titan has been good, but there's never anything for me to do with the extra mana (And pulling out my LD cards is a turn or two too slow to matter, usually). If I had the mana to cast Titan, then I had the mana to cast whatever else was in my hand, and there's no need to overextend (unless I've got a shrouded Teeg out). I think that'd be a good swap.
Hey, here's a nice little solution to Clique! Haha, this is an auto-include in a deck like ours. As speculators have noted in the French Mega Thread, this will no doubt be a huge boost to the viability of Sisay, Zur, and other traditional multiplayer generals who really really want their generals to resolve. Awesomely enough, we have tons of humans in the deck and can certainly name whatever else suits us at the time (Angel, anyone?). This card is amazingly broken. My land base is pretty tight at the moment, but I think I could swap this for a basic.
Three Two new cards that belong in the deck is really wonderful! You may be wondering "what about Banishing Stroke?" and I have to say that I consider that one to only be a "maybe" for the time being. I'll probably test it in place of Oust (only because Oust is such garbage), but I'm doubting that the restrictions on Stroke will make it much better. I'm so disappointed that it wasn't "Exile" and that the real cost is so freaking high and that it requires there to be a clear and present threat at the moment I draw it (as it's a really unplayably high cmc'd sort-of answer beyond that). So I dunno, the more I think on it, the more I don't even want to try it. Thoughts about this card? Am I dismissing it too soon? I almost like Terminus more but I'm not feeling great about either.
You might want to read Abundant Growth Riley. It does not mana ramp at all. It only color fixes. If Abundant Growth actually provided extra mana it would be way too powerful.
Utopia Sprawl has completely different wording that allows the enchanted forest to actually produce extra mana.
I've playtested a few times with Sigarda and had very good results with her. Then again, I've only playtested twice against Savra, Queen of the Golgari, thereby effectively shutting off an entire deck strategy via one card, so I'm not sure how representative that is. However, already owning one, I can't see any harm in inserting it. Now the perennial problem: what to take out for it?
bennet: Concerning your decklist, there are some cards I find questionable (Dauntless Escort, Steward of Valeron, Fierce Empath, Acidic Slime, Day of Judgment, Mirari's Wake, Elspeth, Garruk, Burden of Guilt), but overall it appears to be solid. It is, of course, meant to be tailored to your own personal metagame, so you must decide what works best for YOU rather than copypasta someone else's decklists.
Not having seen your games firsthand, I would be hesitant to provide any feedback given that it cannot be anything more than speculation, but I can relate some of my experiences concerning my own Sisay and hopefully you can glean some useful information from that.
In my experience, Sisay is first and foremost a relatively aggressive midrange/prison deck. The first thing in your post that sends up red flags in my eyes as a Sisay pilot is, in summation, the statement that you "don't have enough removal."
Secondly that you find Thraximundar a threat. O.o
One thing that I seem to notice that your deck somewhat lacks is the redundancy of creature protection that me/Riley run - Dense Foliage, Steely Resolve, Sylvan Safekeeper (I CANNOT overstress how much of an MVP this guy is), Yavimaya Hollow, Benevolent Bodyguard, Devoted Caretaker, etc). Having already piloted a weaker Sisay version in the distant past, I can say that without these multiple layers of protection, yes creature kill will prove a problem. It still does, but it has to be of the extinction variety which Riley is encountering. They provide real protection which the cards you have simply do not do (Mommy has summoning sickness, Greaves/Boots can be responded to, Saffi/Dauntless doesn't protect against non-destroy effects) or the types in which you desperately hope that they have no workaround (Teeg, Hokori). The alternatives I listed provide instant and active protection the moment they hit ground (well, not the caretaker, but you get the idea). Sisay is too vulnerable to instant-speed removal, barring some good turn-cycles and/or managing to fire off a "screw you, I'm tutoring anyway" via 1k Elixir, she will die. A lot. Especially if an opponents have even the vaguest sense of how the deck works, which most should. If Sisay goes down like a 2 penny whore, the deck... does not do well, as I'm sure you know.
The second and far more subtle thing I noticed appears to be your needing "more removal." This seems to me to be a telling sign of a mindset that is too focused on becoming the controlling deck in a match, and this is not what Sisay wants to be and which she will lose at because that's not how she's built. Now I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think this is how Riley and/or Merdock play. For me, my Sisay is a midrange/prison deck that wants to disrupt the opponents' gameplan as quickly as possible and as brutally as possible so it can combo out and/or rofflestomp the opponent as fast as possible.
I know this because I fell into that trap. Gaddock Teeg and/or Hokori and/or Linvala will NOT hold the fort forever, so you need to get a steamroll building RIGHT QUICK that either provides an effective lock and/or life total punch-to-the-face. In my experience, the cards in your decklist I question I've found that they do not further this goal. None of those cards disrupt (acidic slime notwithstanding) or annihilate the opponent. They merely build up to an ever increasing power level. They win more. I didn't need a Mirari's Wake to turn my 1/1s into 2/2s and all my lands into karoos, I needed an Iona, Shield of Emeria to flip a middle finger to mono-colored decks, or a Mindslaver + Mistveil Plains to say "Mindslaver lock gg?" or Living Plane/Kamahl + Elesh Norn to say "oh sorry, did you need those lands?"
Sisay isn't a controlling deck and cannot sustain such a position. There is too little effective removal in white/green, practically no card draw, and no counterspells to speak of. The deck isn't a blue/black counter/kill-all and cannot be. When I tried to play it this way, it lost, a lot, because it was like trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.
The whole point of the deck is to build up creatures and good board position and combo/annihilate the opponent like a bully stealing their lunch money, and whenever I played Wrath of God, or even Myojin of Cleansing Fire, it always, always, always hurt me more than my opponents. A deck that is over one-third creatures has no business trying to wipe the board of the very resource it's trying to make. This is like a ramp deck full of land-fetch (Rampant Growth and friends) running Armageddon or an enchantment-based deck running Purify; it just doesn't make any sense.
I mean, granted there are some games you'll just plain lose and there was nothing you could've done at any point to prevent. It's a card game, and luck still plays a big role no matter what. Land screw kills even the best of players. But it seems to me that there are some cards and comments which are evident of more of a playstyle problem. I'd say this because I was once that kind of player with this deck.
For me, if I have no board, am facing an active Thraximundar, and am in topdeck mode, I've already lost. Wrath of God merely delays the inevitable. My board position is my hand, and my creatures are my card draw. I must build to an overwhelming crescendo that cascades into victory by hitting my opponents where it hurts most when it hurts most before I go for the jugular, because there is no time to do anything less. Parry, counter, dodge, and weave before you land the killingstroke, for there will be no second chances.
Going back to removal, I'm running most of the staples and am finding it not enough. Am considering Sunlance and maybe even some of the defensive conditionals like Smite, Condemn, Reprisal or Reciprocate.
The alternative options listed here are sadly quite terrible, and fail the "Edric test" (and for that matter, the Geist and Animar tests, too). Often, the things that you NEED to remove aren't the things that are attacking or blocking--or can't even be targeted due to hexproof or protection from white--so the majority of white removal out there is very much lacking. Because Edric, Geist, and Animar are all high tier (arguably all tier 1 generals), these cards simply should not be played.
Lack of efficient removal is a real problem for our colors. There have been times where I've found Lignify to be such an all-star (especially against 2 of 3 general listed above) that at one point I even ran Treefolk Harbinger, and he's quite truthfully playable (puts Savannah on top if nothing else). It's a "removal tutor" and often for the sort of removal that can win you games. Lignify is almost the ONLY way you can stop Animar, who will just stomp our deck on turn 3 or 4 if not disrupted.
Another option that I've currently got back in the deck is Tariff, and it's been a lot better to me since cutting the overall number of creatures and focusing even more on dealing with Tier 1 decks. For two mana, it can kill all three of the above generals without targeting them (if your opponent taps out to play them, which they are likely to do), and with each of those decks, you're probably going to win by sheer virtue of hitting consistent land drops, ramp, and abusive nonsense quicker and more consistently than your opponents can hope to come back. That makes Tariff an extremely valuable cards in some of our most difficult matchups. Against often protected generals like Zur, too, it's of course highly relevant.
[EDIT 2: Hokori won me more games than anything else. I want to make a photo album of the winces I get when I play it.]
Meh. =P
Again, I have to frame this in terms of "best decks in the Cokcatrice meta" because nothing else should factor into the tweaking process, but Hokori is just so irrelevant against decks that are good. Having gone through a long period of time where I played both Hokori and his artifact cousin for the redundancy, I keep them in mind in most games and I don't miss either. Hokori, especially, as a four drop is awkward enough in competing with Sisay, and he wants way waaay too many things to go right for him for the symmetry to be broken. I can get into more details if you'd like, but the bottom line is that Hokori and Orb aren't helping us against Tier 1 decks and are just winning us more games against the decks we're beating anyway.
I've playtested a few times with Sigarda and had very good results with her. Then again, I've only playtested twice against Savra, Queen of the Golgari, thereby effectively shutting off an entire deck strategy via one card, so I'm not sure how representative that is. However, already owning one, I can't see any harm in inserting it. Now the perennial problem: what to take out for it?
I went with Primeval Titan for my Sigarda swap. I've had a similar experience as you in that Sigarda did wonders against Thrax (haha, oh poor sacrifice generals), so I've probably got a really biased view of her greatness right now. Still, I'm pretty certain she's better for us than Premival Titan (if you're running it).
bennet: Concerning your decklist, there are some cards I find questionable (Dauntless Escort, Steward of Valeron, Fierce Empath, Acidic Slime, Day of Judgment, Mirari's Wake, Elspeth, Garruk, Burden of Guilt), but overall it appears to be solid. It is, of course, meant to be tailored to your own personal metagame, so you must decide what works best for YOU rather than copypasta someone else's decklists.
I concur with all of this except for Dauntless Escort. He's a sort-of redundant Saffi and curves beautiful with the general, yet another card that demands to be spot removed--though sadly irrelevant vs. Infest and Mutilate (the latter of which I've only ever seen in Iname, but still). He's got a solid body, too, which I think makes him arguably slightly better than running Angelic Renewal, which.. can't attack.
Elspeth I'm on the fence about, but she certainly has game-winning potential, and is another "must-answer" card that can clear the way for Sisay. At 4 mana, though, she's becoming increasingly more dubious with the way the deck is evolving. She's really awesome for me, but not linchpin awesome. Still much more testing needed, but alternate win cons are never bad (see: Mirran Crusader in Geist or Army of the Damned in Iname).
Especially in the Cockatrice meta (and from recent French tournament top 8 evidence), Thrax eats aggro and aggro-control decks alive and is not too shabby vs. combo either; it's almost all instants and ALL MURDEROUS DEATH OMG. It plays a mean extinction game and makes crazy good use of both the -1/-1 enchantments. A creature-heavy version of Sisay is especially susceptible to getting wrecked by Thrax. As much as I love to tease Abnormality, the truth is that it's a rough matchup for us. At best, we might be able to claim 50/50, but I'm not quite that optimistic about the macthup yet.
Having already piloted a weaker Sisay version in the distant past, I can say that without these multiple layers of protection, yes creature kill will prove a problem.
A million times this. For most of the best deckbuilders, blue's primary role is for counterbackup for the general. All of our protection cards are our counterbackup, which also double as threats. It's weird as hell, but it works. It's what allows us to compete. So if any U/X deck is running 12-14 counters, then we're running the same amount in the form of creatures, enchantments, and equipment. Again, looks weird on the surface, but it's what Sisay is made of.
The second and far more subtle thing I noticed appears to be your needing "more removal." This seems to me to be a telling sign of a mindset that is too focused on becoming the controlling deck in a match, and this is not what Sisay wants to be and which she will lose at because that's not how she's built. Now I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think this is how Riley and/or Merdock play. For me, my Sisay is a midrange/prison deck that wants to disrupt the opponents' gameplan as quickly as possible and as brutally as possible so it can combo out and/or rofflestomp the opponent as fast as possible.
Well... that used to be true for me, that I was just concerned with being the fastest, but no longer. What changed? Faster decks, and decks with better control just had automatic wins vs. us. Indeed, to be a combo deck in this format, you have to have a fairly consistent turn 4 win (this means Animar and Iname at present, with the weird exception of the slower but much more resilient Karador as well), a feat Sisay isn't capable of without something insanely lucky like putting a Pattern of Rebirth on Academy Rector and saccing the Rector for Norn/Plane. Also, without access to black for hand disruption or blue for sweeper and spot removal backup, going all in on the Cockatrice meta in our colors means getting whooped (without, say, an all-in dedicated elfball theme that can deal lethal elf-ish damage in 4-5 turns).
Sure, we can outrace the decks that don't have a combo or tutor general at the helm just fine, or the weird generals that don't in some way produce card advantage, but of course.. those aren't the top tier generals. A combo Sisay build is not a tournament winning build, from what I've experienced. A Sisay deck that plays smart hosers and safer means of getting to the mid-game (and surviving past turn 4) definitely wants more removal. I still can't express how disappointed I am with the white miracle...
You're on the right track here: more hosers and more state-based disruption are fitting for Sisay, but I think they have to be lower on the curve and less depending on multi-card combos. Again, from experience and from getting whooped on the Cockatrice meta by faster, more disruptive decks.
The whole point of the deck is to build up creatures and good board position and combo/annihilate the opponent like a bully stealing their lunch money, and whenever I played Wrath of God, or even Myojin of Cleansing Fire, it always, always, always hurt me more than my opponents. A deck that is over one-third creatures has no business trying to wipe the board of the very resource it's trying to make. This is like a ramp deck full of land-fetch (Rampant Growth and friends) running Armageddon or an enchantment-based deck running Purify; it just doesn't make any sense.
Agreed, wrath effects not only hurt us more than our opponents, but the decks we really want to wrath are either piloted by smartypants who don't overextend, only win on the spot, or have so much built-in recursion that our wrath just delays our death a few turns.
Good insights, overall. We're mostly on the same page, but just have different meta experiences (how many times have I said THAT throughout the thread??).
Yeah I play-tested for close to 10 hours today and a couple of the ones you list are definitely gonna get the chop. Fierce Empath and Garruk are probably the weakest of the bunch. Escort I find to be pretty good because he is abusable via Sun Titan and to prevent wraths. Steward is, to my mind, the king of dorks. When I have him in opening hand but no one-drop dork, I am more happy than if I see Lotus Cobra or Bloom Tender. Reason being that he can beat with a Sword and then tap post-combat. He also pods into Ewit which is never a bad thing. Acidic Slime pods into the Titans and is versatile removal followed by a deathtouch blocker. Burden of Guilt I'm still playtesting but it does good things to decks that beat with their generals.
I used to run Fierce Empath, and I love 'em still, but there were just better things that wanted to go into his spot. He's just proven to be much better for elfball and Animar who will almost certainly be casting his target. Also, I dropped all the 2-mana non-"haste" ramp effects from the deck and I'm not looking back. In a strong meta where everyone knows your game, killing a 2 drop dork like Rofellos or Bloom Tender or Cobra is a perfectly legitimate way to timewalk you and pull ahead, and it's happened to me more times than I can count. Burden of Guilt is interesting, and I'd say definitely better than Gelid Shackles. Interesting idea.
I'm really thinking that those combos you mentioned (Mindslaver lock, Living Plane, etc) could be really brutal against so many decks. I may move away from a more army-based build towards getting those things out. Non-Sisay tutors is something I'm light on right now anyway.
I just need a brief recap on why Riley decided to move away from those strategies. I've read through this whole thread before but I can't really remember what it was. Perhaps the rise of the faster aggro-control decks?
In brief, they're all very vulnerable and way way too slow. When I eventually whittled the combos down to the best and least variable combo of Living Plane and Linvala/Norn, even that was irrelevant vs. the faster combo decks and aggro decks that could pull off turn 4-5 lethal wins. You would really have to dedicate your deck to Enchantress Control (with plenty of cards that delay attackers) and abandon all other themes to make this one combo work. All of the other old Sisay combos are, sadly, way too dependent on far too many factors--and several turns too slow. And as aforementioned, no counter backup and no hand disruption means we're just begging for disappointment.
While we're on the subject, I find Geist quite a mean matchup unless I go off really fast with dorks and get Norn down early. He can live within Hokori quite comfortably and is so tricky to get rid of, and race against. Any tips?
That's about all there is to it. This is about a 50/50 matchup, as Geist has to reserve his limited counters on your threats but has to eventually, y'know, PLAY stuff to win, so Geist has to take some big leaps of faith in trying to get there. As long as all of your cards are relevant and dangerous (and quite aggressive here), this matchup can go your way.
I've a lot of thinking and tweaking to do, but right now I'm finding that too many of my games stall when I have a huge presence on the board but am not attacking for fear of being tapped out and losing the race to an insane beater like Geist.
(Maybe I'm just not a very good player - who knows?)
In general, I've found that if I'm stalling, it's mutual for my opponent. Normally he's meeting my plays and vice versa, tit for tat, resulting in us both going into topdeck mode or hoping to dig for a tutor, and that just takes a ton of experience and so much deck tweaking that comes from meta consciousness. But yeah, in this particular instance, just keep playing threats. Tapping out against control decks is the right thing to do, because they probably won't have an answer for everything. Whatever sticks has the potential of being the nail in their coffin.
Alright, guys! I've got an updated list that is hot as hell. It includes the latest set's goodies, and I'm feeling really great about it and sad that I can't bring it into the tournament right now, haha. I've finally figured out the best amount of lands and the greatest lands to run and have never been more happy with the mana base, found an awesome balance of creatures-to-control, added some really versatile answers that don't disappoint across matchups, and found the best ramp options that don't leave us at all vulnerable to blowouts against control decks.
But for now, I'm going to bed. ;P
I'll update this thread tomorrow, including the OP with my latest decklist and some explanations for the latest cuts and additions.
Well, I can only speak from my own perspective, like you said.
Currently I swapped out Weathered Wayfarer for Sigarda. Maybe prime time would be the better idea. I guess I should test it out and see.
Honestly I think the elephant in the room is that Sisay just doesn't have access to blue or black and that white/green has, historically, been a really weak color combination. Can WotC print cards that will change this dynamic? Maybe, but I'm just not sure how much tweaking can be done since that stark fact will always sit there. Sure, Knight of the Reliquary and Fauna Shaman are great additions to the team, but do they stack up to Thoughtseize and Spell Snare? I don't know. I think just a simple, philosophical discussion the matter would be beneficial.
Honestly I think the elephant in the room is that Sisay just doesn't have access to blue or black and that white/green has, historically, been a really weak color combination. Can WotC print cards that will change this dynamic? Maybe, but I'm just not sure how much tweaking can be done since that stark fact will always sit there. Sure, Knight of the Reliquary and Fauna Shaman are great additions to the team, but do they stack up to Thoughtseize and Spell Snare? I don't know. I think just a simple, philosophical discussion the matter would be beneficial.
Have you seen the results of SCG Legacy Opens lately? G/W Maverick has been kicking some major ass and top 8-ing all over the place. =P
But the big difference between the two formats is the 10 point life difference, and those 10 points allow slow-rolling decks to build locks or a few more turns to win with a combo, and that makes a world of difference. Also: some of the Legacy banned cards that were at one time ruining Legacy are legal in this format, such as Oath of Druids and Skullclamp, and their presence forces us to have more maindeck hate and be ever vigilant of which decks are abusing these already easily abuseable cards the most. This means that there are decks capable of insane blow-outs in this format slightly more than in Legacy, and we don't have the luxury of boarding in a consistent number of hate cards.
I'm getting a little off topic with that, but I only mean to say that G/W is fine in this format (and my build plays just about every top 8 Legacy staple plus redundant alternatives), and the struggles we face are the same frustrations that other decks face, and even against blue and black decks, crazy/crazier things resolve and win games by a mile. This is why adding more control really really makes sense and we should only include the bare minimum number of cards required to win.
At one point or another, I've considered or played all of these cards (haha, with the admitted exception of Freyalise Supplicant), and most of them fail to address the major problematic matchups we have, or just aren't diverse enough. Last Breath only just makes the cut for me, despite being useless against Oath and Extinction builds (and, yeah, Geist and Animar), it's very vital in a good number of other matchups. I've only ever seen Drop/Nodes work in Oath decks, as it's a card that has to be built around. Definitely not right for Sisay.
Alright, without further ado, here's my latest build:
Tectonic Edge was sorely missed. It had to come back in to deal with Wolf Runs, making 3-5 color decks sad, killing opposing Gaea's Cradles, killing Rishdan Port, etc. I'd got as far as saying that this probably belongs in every French deck.
Dryad Arbor is back in to address the rise again in Clique. Also, it's still a valid GSZ target on turn 1 against certain decks (though still dangerous against extinction builds who have plenty of kill spells to spare, so play with caution). Can be pitched to Survival, if nothing else.
Kor Haven didn't make the cut (..again). I figured that it would help in those inevitable matches where my opponent either ramped to their really mana intensive general or cheated in something fat and amazing via Survival or Oath of Druids, and this would buy me time. It has not worked out that way. The nature of the "all-in" creatures in this format is that when they swing, they're swninging for the win because of their "swing" abilities. For example, this card effectively does nothing against Emrakul, Zur, Primeval Titan, Thrax, and others. And ultimately, having 7 lands contributed to one too many games where I had just colorless sources in my opener, so I knew I needed another basic.
City of Brass became Cavern of Souls, which has been fine thus far. I think I've finally figured out the perfect amount and types of lands for the deck. 38 seems to be the absolute magic number (plus the ramp, fixers, tutoring, and dork options) for this deck, but this is always a work in progress.
Basic land count has been upped to 8, which is both because Wild Growth is so amazing (and never wants to be equipped on a nonbasic), to give Land tax more oomph, and to limit the effects of Blood Moon on us. This seems to be the right amount.
Tariff shines when needed, which is more often than you'd think.
Sylvan Scrying and Expedition Map are both testing extremely well and I highly recommend them both. There's almost always some land you want for whatever situation is on the board.
Nevermore can win games. It seems like an oddball, but it can be one of our only hopes against the three Tier 1 combo decks in the format. It also randomly shuts off things you know can hose you, and is another must-answer card that has tested well in the past and is testing well again.
Exploration and Burgeoning are my latest additions, and they have been testing extremely well. Note that one of the biggest issues we face against the majority of our toughest matchups, particularly vs. combo, is that, from lots of experience, I'm always either one land drop or one mana short of blowing out my opponent with my own degenerate play. Because I almost always have extra mana in hand and it does nothing for me while in my hand (other than maybe soften the blow of Hymn?), these cards do work. Furthermore, dropping land backup for Sisay in the form of Hollow, Homeward Path, Rishadan Port, Castle, or playing Gaea's Cradle and extending your plays that turn is amazingly busted. I'll still be testing these lands with scrutiny, but they're doing everything I want them to do right now and are great regardless of matchup.
Trinisphere, too, is another card that address troublesome matchups (chiefly Animar, but also elf ball and other really dedicated aggro decks like Lyzolda and Isamaru) and functions as a pseudo-City of Solitude against control decks. It's not completely asymmetrical, however, and requires more testing. Seems good so far, though.
Dauntless Escort is a must-answer pre-Sisay drop with a solid 3/3 body. Wraths and pyroclasms are ever-present in the meta today (as well as plenty of spells that spot-remove Sisay in a "kill" or "damage" way), and Escort helps. He may not make future cuts, but so far he's testing well.
And finally, Sigarda, Host of Herons is our ultimate mid-range beater with evasion and hex-proof and a very relevant protection effect for your creatures. In some ways, she's a better Thrun and curves with the deck well. I'll still be looking at her critically over time, but so far she seems appropriate for the deck.
Nice list man. Question: Is burgeoning really that good? Is it like a 2nd copy of exploration? Are you drawing enough cards to warrant both? Exploration of course is amazing on its own but i'm skeptical on burgeoning. In your deck, without land tax, they just seem like "G: put a land or two from your hand into play". I dunno. Is it better than Explore? I'd be happy to hear it is legit though
Nice list man. Question: Is burgeoning really that good? Is it like a 2nd copy of exploration? Are you drawing enough cards to warrant both? Exploration of course is amazing on its own but i'm skeptical on burgeoning. In your deck, without land tax, they just seem like "G: put a land or two from your hand into play". I dunno. Is it better than Explore? I'd be happy to hear it is legit though
Hard to say just yet, but your assessment isn't inaccurate. That is, it will certainly almost always be just a tiny speed boost--but this isn't a bad thing at all for a deck that just wants to put it all out there and say "deal with it," shades and all.
But I admit, Burgeoning began as an afterthought in trying to get some sort of redundancy with Exploration for testing purposes. The more I see both cards, the better idea I'll get (quicker) about their viability.
Generally though, having a high number of really strong one-drops that set me up for a quick and/or protected Sisay has long been the goal with the deck's one-drops (and proven really important in this fast and brutal meta more than any other goal in the deck, I'd argue), from elves to Sylvan Safekeeper, and both Burgeoning and Exploration have the potential to do both of these things at once (in protection lands or dropping that crucial 5th mana for both playing Safekeeper/Bodyguard and Sisay on the same turn, a turn or two before I'm supposed to have done this). The more "sure" ramp also allows me to punish control and temp decks that much harder, especially decks like Geist and Edric who are only equipped to possibly disrupt one thing per turn (and must ration counters to protect their own advancement).
But more to the point: is Explore better than Burgeoning, as the latter is more dependent on my opponent and a worse topdeck? That's ostensibly the case, but the cost of 2 makes me skeptical for a one-time effect and is not as great on the curve. Effects that draw 1 card one-time or even 2 at a time (Skullclamp tested poorly, which is odd, right?) don't seem to help this deck, in my experience. It's the tutoring and the redundancy leading to explosive early turns that makes all the difference.
Bottom line is that more testing is (always) needed, but I've got a really strong hunch that these cards are the sort of thing I've been looking for.
Hard to say just yet, but your assessment isn't inaccurate. That is, it will certainly almost always be just a tiny speed boost--but this isn't a bad thing at all for a deck that just wants to put it all out there and say "deal with it," shades and all.
But I admit, Burgeoning began as an afterthought in trying to get some sort of redundancy with Exploration for testing purposes. The more I see both cards, the better idea I'll get (quicker) about their viability.
Generally though, having a high number of really strong one-drops that set me up for a quick and/or protected Sisay has long been the goal with the deck's one-drops (and proven really important in this fast and brutal meta more than any other goal in the deck, I'd argue), from elves to Sylvan Safekeeper, and both Burgeoning and Exploration have the potential to do both of these things at once (in protection lands or dropping that crucial 5th mana for both playing Safekeeper/Bodyguard and Sisay on the same turn, a turn or two before I'm supposed to have done this). The more "sure" ramp also allows me to punish control and temp decks that much harder, especially decks like Geist and Edric who are only equipped to possibly disrupt one thing per turn (and must ration counters to protect their own advancement).
But more to the point: is Explore better than Burgeoning, as the latter is more dependent on my opponent and a worse topdeck? That's ostensibly the case, but the cost of 2 makes me skeptical for a one-time effect and is not as great on the curve. Effects that draw 1 card one-time or even 2 at a time (Skullclamp tested poorly, which is odd, right?) don't seem to help this deck, in my experience. It's the tutoring and the redundancy leading to explosive early turns that makes all the difference.
Bottom line is that more testing is (always) needed, but I've got a really strong hunch that these cards are the sort of thing I've been looking for.
Thank you for the reply. And well said! 1 CC spells are just fantastic, especially 1 CC permanents that are always sort of "doing something." These two enchantments also increase the deck's focus on getting a fast and protected sisay out (if I understand correctly).
Another question: how long have you been running expedition map and sylvan scrying and would you ever consider cutting them? I suppose not ever now due to having Cavern of Souls (edited) huh? Makes control really think carefully about countering your "bad land search" cards huh?
You've got some really interesting stuff going on in this deck and especially with this most recent list. I bolded the part of your response that is most important to me - identifying your deck's greatest strengths and abusing them to the max. Good stuff.
I've also made a few changes that are reflected in my list (see the OP).
I can't say I agree with everything Riley has done, but I'm glad it seems to be working well. Thalia has been great for me, and I wouldn't cut it.
Trinisphere seems very, very out of place. I suspect that will end up being WAY too awkward and get cut, but we'll see.
My biggest issue with my list right now is the mana base. I'm currently running 39 lands (since missing a land drop with this deck is pretty devastating in the first 4-5 turns), but have found that i have a few too many colorless sources. I'm probably going to cut out a lot of the cards that are only useful in weird, fringe circumstances and play all the dual lands. Even cards like Windswept Heath haven't been testing particularly well.
I agree with Dauntless Escort. It's a card that fell in and out of my builds a while back, but I hadn't really reconsidered him until Riley mentioned him again. Definitely a good answer to some of Sisay's problems in the metagame.
As it is I still feel far more comfortable with my decklist's more creature-based approach (we now differ by 10+ on our creature count!), and it has worked well for me so far, but I'd love to her how your testing goes. I saw you were 2-0 in the tournament a while back. How did that end up going?
Thank you for the reply. And well said! 1 CC spells are just fantastic, especially 1 CC permanents that are always sort of "doing something." These two enchantments also increase the deck's focus on getting a fast and protected sisay out (if I understand correctly).
Another question: how long have you been running expedition map and sylvan scrying and would you ever consider cutting them? I suppose not ever now due to having Cavern of Souls (edited) huh? Makes control really think carefully about countering your "bad land search" cards huh?
You've got some really interesting stuff going on in this deck and especially with this most recent list. I bolded the part of your response that is most important to me - identifying your deck's greatest strengths and abusing them to the max. Good stuff.
Thank you, sir! You certainly know your enchantments, so your endorsement carries some weight. ;P
Sylvan Scrying and Crop Rotation have come in and out of the deck multiple times pre-Cavern, but I think Sylvan and the less risky Expedition Map are now mainstays. At their worst, they can grab me Wasteland which is rarely ever a bad target. The sheer amount of other utility lands (and, now, Exploration and Burgeoning) means that there's always something powerful that can be done with these two cards. In any event, I've not been sad to see them in my testing even in non-control matchups, and sometimes I treat Scrying as a sort of Three Visits in that it allows me to fetch Ancient Tomb at will, a pretty strong play.
She's been on my mind lately as a decent pre-Sisay drop (though would never be tutored up post-Sisay) to maaaybe make a counter spell or removal spell cost one more (at which point, my opponent should have three lands open, anyway), so she didn't make the cut. She also really hurt my own gameplan too much when I ran her, as my non-creature options really really want to be cast at their actual mana cost and having to wait an extra turn is as ruinous for me as it is for my opponents--and that's what I determined before my non-creature count jumped to 36. I think she's a much much better fit in Merdock's deck and, really, most W or G/W decks in the meta. Certainly playable in French, but just not quite right for Sisay.
I've also made a few changes that are reflected in my list (see the OP).
I can't say I agree with everything Riley has done, but I'm glad it seems to be working well. Thalia has been great for me, and I wouldn't cut it.
Trinisphere seems very, very out of place. I suspect that will end up being WAY too awkward and get cut, but we'll see.
My biggest issue with my list right now is the mana base. I'm currently running 39 lands (since missing a land drop with this deck is pretty devastating in the first 4-5 turns), but have found that i have a few too many colorless sources. I'm probably going to cut out a lot of the cards that are only useful in weird, fringe circumstances and play all the dual lands. Even cards like Windswept Heath haven't been testing particularly well.
I agree with Dauntless Escort. It's a card that fell in and out of my builds a while back, but I hadn't really reconsidered him until Riley mentioned him again. Definitely a good answer to some of Sisay's problems in the metagame.
As it is I still feel far more comfortable with my decklist's more creature-based approach (we now differ by 10+ on our creature count!), and it has worked well for me so far, but I'd love to her how your testing goes. I saw you were 2-0 in the tournament a while back. How did that end up going?
Trinisphere is definitely a flex spot that may get the boot in short order, but the spot is reserved for "something to help fight Animar" and hopefully be versatile in other matches (and not be easy to remove). Ethersworn Canonist, though more tutorable, is also both more targetable (easily bounceable vs Animar) and narrow vs the majority of other decks. Sphere has the potential to annoy more decks--including our own. I won't pretend like it's is the best card in the world for us or solves all of our problems, but it does have potential. Nevertheless, I admit that I'm already looking at Treefolk Harbinger again for the spot because, dammit, Lignify is THAT good. I did drop Oust in my latest creation, so I'll probably be hurting for another removal option before long.
(I have been made aware of a certain Tropical Storm card, but..)
To help solve the "too many colorless lands" problem, I would cut Deserted Temple and Kor Haven first for two more basics. I'm confused as to how fetchlands like Windswept Heath could ever be a bad thing unless you're facing off against a ton of Blood Moon effects and feel like you need more basics? Did you mean Windbrisk Heights?
I'm currently 2-1 in the tournament, having lost to a omgmakeme's Zur in some extremely close games that could have gone either way. I've been taking pretty heavy notes about the experience and I'll definitely be sharing every detail. Tomorrow I face off against Capitacom's Olivia in round 4 and, let's be honest, will soon be 2-2. -_-
I did indeed mean windbrisk heights :-). I mix those up more than I probably should.
Kor haven I definitely want to cut, since it has done next to nothing despite seeming quite good on paper. Deserted temple has actually been okay, since generating double mana with stuff like cradle is occasionally useful, but you're right that it's probably not worth the abnormal mana that the colorless tap costs me.
I did indeed mean windbrisk heights :-). I mix those up more than I probably should.
Kor haven I definitely want to cut, since it has done next to nothing despite seeming quite good on paper. Deserted temple has actually been okay, since generating double mana with stuff like cradle is occasionally useful, but you're right that it's probably not worth the abnormal mana that the colorless tap costs me.
Oust is awesome! Why did you cut that?!
Oust is better than nothing, but it's terrible at what it does. It doesn't actually deal with troublesome creatures (which are becoming less frequent as more decks go all in on their general with a ton of control, and it's even worse against all the ETB creatures that these decks are packing). It's also bad at dealing with generals, and the Sorcery speed preventing me from responding to equips has been an actual issue. Also, very often, my opponent will opt to tuck the general and just recast it at its normal cost. This hasn't been buying me enough time and I've been really let down by it.
That said, Trinisphere has indeed been irrelevant in too many matchups, so that's where I want more removal or a tutor for removal. That means either Banishing Stroke, Treefolk Harbinger, or Sterling Grove are the three best candidates, imo. For speed issues, Grove might not get me where I need to be fast enough, but it's certainly more versatile and can grab me Survival to steal a win as well as being able to nab Oblivion Ring/Journey and other decent targets. On the other hand, Treefolk Harbinger (who is himself more tutorable) can get my Lignify quickly, something that's becoming increasingly more relevant with decks that are 2/3-control-plus their-General rising in the meta (and was responsible for one of my wins in a tournament match in an otherwise hopeless matchup where traditional removal would have lost me the game handily). Banishing Stroke is diverse, but it also runs the risk of being useless until way late in the game, at which point the mana cost sucks. For now, I'll be giving Harbinger another chance in the spot, keeping Sterling Grove in mind, which was quite good to me in earlier builds.
At first i thought (and with out playing any counter decks), removing Scryb Ranger and Stag would weaken the Blue Matchup too much, but I guess two tutors for Cavern compensates for that (and probably makes that matchup way better).
I try to keep Stag in mind especially as he's just a fantastic one-card win condition vs some U/B decks, but finding the space is difficult. I'd definitely still recommend running him if your meta is more counter heavy. But yeah, currently the Cockatrice meta has a big mix of colors, and Cavern seems sufficient at hosing U control.
I think Sigarda is really what this deck missed for so long. Finally we can find a good and even self protected Beater through Sisay. She won me an really awkward game where my Opponent resolved Avacyn, Sheoldred, Reya and Blinding Angel, where everything else wouldve been to small, to easy to kill or without flying.
I've been having a great experience with her as well. She's such a fantastic tutor target for whenever, as flying and hexproof is enough to win games by themselves without the usual need for Norn. This has lead to some great scenarios where I can just keep Yavimaya Hollow up to protect Sisay and not have to worry about protecting Sisay's Legendary target, too.
To me it was a little problem, getting enough Removal to kill opposing threads, maybe Oust, Treefolk Harbinger, somethingelse need to come in again? But its hard to find something which can handle Animar, as soo many People are playing him online. Maybe Ulvenwald Tracker could be something to take a closer look at, too.
I've got my eye on Tracker, but I suspect he's better in a build that has at least 10 more creatures than we do, and will otherwise strictly be a card that wants to be played turn 2 to kill the probably turn 2 Animar. It's still a nevertheless awesome ability that I'm probably not seeing the big picture of yet. I ought to test it. I don't think I've seen anyone playing it yet, but Sisay might be the right deck for it.
I also still play Birthing Pod (instead of Elspeth) and it has never been bad for me, always finding something relevant.
There are so many Silverbullets we could find and then there is a cool "standard" chain:
Onedrop > Stoneforge Mystic > Eternal Witness > Ranger of Eos (after this my Paper version could get Karmic Guide, due to me not having a Loyal Retainers :-D). Was it really testing so poor for you?
Hmm, I feel like in the games where that awesome sort of chain happens, we've already got winning matchups (and, generally, we want as many creatures on the board as possible for the always relevant Cradle boost and Norn finishers). But against Tier 1 decks? They'll either just win before Birthing Pod becomes relevant or remove our targets at instant speed. The card itself is fantastic, I won't deny that, but I'm wary of its usefulness in a "top 8" setting. I think I need to see it for myself to believe it, but my inclination (and experience) left a smirky expression on my face.
I am still playing Weathered Wayfarer as another way to sneek a Cavern through against Counterdecks (or find utility lands /Cradle/Ancient Tomb). I guess he just gets killed against removal heavy decks before he can do anything but in that case hes another Benevolent Bodyguard (kinda).
I like it. The main reason I took him out is because he wasn't getting active enough and I wanted to cut down on those "if, then" cards, but here I am still running Land Tax to great effect. But yeah, Pyroclasm effects and sweepers and what not also made me smirky about him. YMMV, but he's probably good enough for inclusion if you find yourself wanting more ways to tutor up Cavern of Souls, Wasteland, etc.
Is Mutavault really worth it for the occasional (little?) Damage/Block?
I mean there are already so much colorless Lands in the deck.
Super Friends control decks are a nightmare once they get rolling. Mutavault has pulled me out of many binds, usually involved Liliana of the freaking Veil (ARHGHGHGGHG). It's also been a solid Jitte/Sword carrier post-wrath, and a finisher for Norn who is increasingly entering into the field alone due to prior removals/wraths. Colorless hurts, but the activation cost of 1 is just about perfect.
And why did you cut Stirring Wildwood? Because of the etbt? To me it has been really great so far, but dont play that much on Cockatrice (but i will again when my Girl is finished with her exams and I have more undisrupted Time again! Yaaay2).
...which is why Wildwood always hurt me so. Tying up 4 mana for a manland is not ideal, and I found myself almost never doing it, always having better options for the mana--even if that option was just "recast Sisay." It's amazing how good that play is. ;P Nevertheless, it's still a valid 2-mana land and may go back into the deck eventually. I was trying to limit the amount of etbt tapped lands, yeah, and trying to tweak the balance of Basics for Land Tax purposes and safe Wild Growth targets as well as improving our odds of winning against red decks that drop Blood Moon turn 3.
Woohoo, I just finished my semester last night! Let's flood Cockatrice with Sisay, k? ;P I'm really glad you're enjoying the deck. I spend entirely way too much time obsessing over it. -_-
I can't wait to share my tournament experience. Kwiznek and I even had a chance to play a "what if?" match not long ago, as we'd missed out on playing each other round 1, so I've got EVEN MORE long-winded narratives for you all, yaay!
Exactly one day after this very Primer thread went up, someone posted this Sisay list on Tapped Out, using the same title as the Primer here. Coincidence? Perhaps all Sisay players are huge perverts. From the description: "One day, Jasmine Boreal and Captain Sisay were having hot lesbian sex, when Captain Sisay decided to host a pool party for all her super sexy friends. Chainmail bikinis optional."
Ahahaha wtf.
In other news, I'm currently 3-2 in the Salvation tourney and will be battling it out in the play-offs between two others for the final top 8 spot. I'm so bored of this version of the deck though, haha. I want my Cavern of Souls and better overall land base! Not to mention Sigarda. It's funny... Sigarda may have actually won me a game in my last tourney match where Primeval Titan was, y'know, able to be spot-removed. Siiigh.
It was a rough day for me. Afterwards, I lost in Peggle to multiple strangers and then in Scramble with Friends to my girlfriend and then found out my frenemy has a higher Klout score than mine.
But then I had streusel-topped blueberry muffins and all was well in the world.
Exactly one day after this very Primer thread went up, someone posted this Sisay list on Tapped Out, using the same title as the Primer here. Coincidence? Perhaps all Sisay players are huge perverts. From the description: "One day, Jasmine Boreal and Captain Sisay were having hot lesbian sex, when Captain Sisay decided to host a pool party for all her super sexy friends. Chainmail bikinis optional."
Ahahaha wtf.
In other news, I'm currently 3-2 in the Salvation tourney and will be battling it out in the play-offs between two others for the final top 8 spot. I'm so bored of this version of the deck though, haha. I want my Cavern of Souls and better overall land base! Not to mention Sigarda. It's funny... Sigarda may have actually won me a game in my last tourney match where Primeval Titan was, y'know, able to be spot-removed. Siiigh.
To anyone who's ever urged me to run more enchantment and artifact removal: point well taken.
I've just added Krosan Grip to the deck for reasons that will become abundantly clear when I share the tournament report.
For now, I think I can do without Steelshaper's Gift. Yes, you'd be amazed at how often I need to tutor up my own Jitte in response to my opponent's before Sisay hits the board, or just how much of a random hoser Sword of Fire and Ice can be, but.. I don't know what else to take out? Everything else is playing quite well, I think. Testing, testing.
Heya, I play in more of a multiplayer enviorment (sometimes 1v1), I think this deck lacks some removal, I find it near impossible without tutoring (as sisay doesn't help for remvoal) to win a game against people who already got out huge threats.
Outside of the 3-4 we have its pretty minimal.
Perhaps a DOJ/Wrath/'X"
Do you perhaps have a list of green/white removal that would be useful, as I think DOJ would be counter-intuative sometimes.
Just my opinion.
Thank you, sir! Your endorsement means a lot to me. =)
For those who aren't Evergreen (and who missed our sets last night), I actually took some games on his Iname deck! Evergreen is one of the deckbuilers who has substantially tweaked his deck to combat the aggro-control meta (an "extinction" build, I keep calling it), so traditionally my creature-based Sisay stood very little chance against him unless he was land-screwed or something. Winning any games against an Iname deck with so much creature hate and only one counter spell in our deck is no easy task, so I do believe my deck is heading in the right direction for a super hate-y meta.
I'm very slowly reaching some kind of equilibrium, whittling my creature pool down to only the best handful of utilty/ramp/game-ending creatures (currently down to 28, perhaps an all-time low). I think it was Hunter245 way back when who made certain accusations about my sanity for not playing all the utility lands that Sisay is known for, and I have to agree with him now; those lands of old are testing extremely well in my latest build. With those lands, I've also reintroduced better tutoring so that I can put the right ones into play for the job.
To tease some of those changes: World Queller and Llanowar Reborn are in my current build. I'm really trying to think outside of the box here, and both are doing what I need them to do in testing (deal with hexproof creatures and planeswalkers and one-of equipment or problematic enchantments and curve nicely between my 4 and 6 drops, and the other makes sure Sisay survives through Pyroclasm, Infest, and various other 2 damage effects).
On a related note, I managed to best Thrax in a set! This was a previously hopeless matchup, given that it's ENTIRELY built to hate on aggro. Personal triumph, there.
So yeah, as expected, the deck has lost some of its explosiveness with all the dorks and maybe possibly getting Norn out a bit sooner, but Norn isn't even super relevant in many matchups in the current meta (but still relevant in a majority). It's better that I lay the groundwork for taking control of the midgame without being vulnerable to sweeps. I may even take out Dryad Arbor, as this has always been very susceptible and seems worse than an Elf given that it ties up a land drop as well as not tapping the turn it comes into play. I've got better things to do with GSZ, anyhow.
Note to self: stop trying to play Elspeth when Teeg is in play, and stop trying to target my creatures with equipment who are shrouded. Must pay more attention for the tournament!! No more bonehead mistakes.
Definitely a good analogy for the defense of creatures that "die to removal." I think, ultimately though, that French EDH is different than other formats in that there are entire viable archetypes built around the idea that all you have to do is delay the game while your guaranteed win condition waits on the sidelines and, while everything else is singleton, you effectively have infinite general cards in the deck (it's something like Storm in Legacy, with building up to using the Sideboard). It's like every game begins with Leyline of Demonic Tutor, and for some decks this means that they can just play pure control and card advantage for a few turns, and these decks are growing fast in popularity. "Dies to removal" is a particularly strong defense right now against playing creature heavy decks on Cockatrice. I've actually given up playing good-stuff Edric on Cockatrice because there seems to be no way to tweak him to stand a chance against the best of the extinction builds (since he needs lots of creatures to be at all effective).
Anyway, Scavenging Ooze dies to removal, but he's good enough to run and arguably still better than, say, Morningtide. He's a much better Tarmogoyf. ;P
...
Maybe I should run Mornigtide, too. >_>
That is, all of our creatures arguably need immediate impact, which still makes creatures like Linvala a champion. I keep wanting to play those other versatile Legendary cards like Mangara again but.. argh slowness.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
So in the end, if you're going to play 1v1 EDH a lot and very competitively, listening to Riley is probably a good idea. If you're not, and want a competitive Sisay deck that you can probably just pick up and play pretty well in 1v1 against the vast majority of good, serious players that may not be flawless for winning a 1v1 tourney, I think my list is a good choice (though Riley's is probably also fine for this).
That being said, World Queller? I hope that's a joke.
Well since this matchup is so unwinnable for Thrax, I should add in more hate cards such as Dread of Night, Dystopia, Nature's Ruin, Virtue's Ruin, and Perish.
I hope Evergreen sees this post and adds more G/W hate to Iname. <3
Clique is obnoxious for the majority of decks, but it's very tenuous for Clique players at the same time if they're playing against an equally tuned deck. By that I mean there is a lot of luck involved on the part of the Clique player in terms of what precise answers they need in order to start their gameplan of "counter everything." For instance, if you're packing any reasonable amount of mana dorks and you're on the play, you might just plain win if the Clique player doesn't have Mental Misstep. The Clique player isn't likely to power out Clique on turn 3 (as long as you keep providing counter fodder), so Thrun can really steal this matchup before he can Hinder it. The same goes for Great Sable Stag (if you're playing him, which is still a pretty great meta option imo), which singlehandedly wins the game if cast on turn 2. Again, the Clique player has outs (Maze of Ith and Shackles), but the odds aren't as much in their favor as they are for you, given your very cheap tutors and your consistent ramp.
But yeah, it's definitely not an easy matchup. We're a little more threat dense and a little more blue-hatey than most decks, so we've got an easier time than most, but if Clique can counter your first handful of spells, the balance of counters and searches for counters makes your life extremely difficult for the remainder of the game if nothing managed to stick early. Play aggressively! I hold nothing back in this matchup. I think, "He's gotta run out of counters eventually, right?" The more suited your build is for aggro, the better time you'll have (I think I'd do worse now with my current iteration, given the change to getting to the mid-game safely as opposed to explosively to improve most of my other matchups, but c'est la vie).
ALRIGHT GUYS!! Let's talk about new cards since the set is fully spoiled. There are a few I think we can put into the deck:
Abundant Growth:
So far, the amount of dorks to "other ramp" options seems to be fairly balanced for me, but this card is a MUST. The restriction on Utopia Sprawl (forest only) is lame, so I think this replaces Sprawl for sure. Cantrips and can go on a basic Plains is kind of amazingly awesome. I wish there was a functional Llanowar Elves reprint that cantrips, oh man!Lol reading comprehension what?
Sigarda, Host of Herons:
Hexproof is broken. Can't be sacrificed, either? Err, okay. Seems fair! My build presently has zero 5 drops, and this card just makes so much sense. It can be tutored and it can end games handily. What's not to like? I might take out Primeval Titan for this. My testing of that Titan has been good, but there's never anything for me to do with the extra mana (And pulling out my LD cards is a turn or two too slow to matter, usually). If I had the mana to cast Titan, then I had the mana to cast whatever else was in my hand, and there's no need to overextend (unless I've got a shrouded Teeg out). I think that'd be a good swap.
Cavern of Souls:
Hey, here's a nice little solution to Clique! Haha, this is an auto-include in a deck like ours. As speculators have noted in the French Mega Thread, this will no doubt be a huge boost to the viability of Sisay, Zur, and other traditional multiplayer generals who really really want their generals to resolve. Awesomely enough, we have tons of humans in the deck and can certainly name whatever else suits us at the time (Angel, anyone?). This card is amazingly broken. My land base is pretty tight at the moment, but I think I could swap this for a basic.
ThreeTwo new cards that belong in the deck is really wonderful! You may be wondering "what about Banishing Stroke?" and I have to say that I consider that one to only be a "maybe" for the time being. I'll probably test it in place of Oust (only because Oust is such garbage), but I'm doubting that the restrictions on Stroke will make it much better. I'm so disappointed that it wasn't "Exile" and that the real cost is so freaking high and that it requires there to be a clear and present threat at the moment I draw it (as it's a really unplayably high cmc'd sort-of answer beyond that). So I dunno, the more I think on it, the more I don't even want to try it. Thoughts about this card? Am I dismissing it too soon? I almost like Terminus more but I'm not feeling great about either.My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
Utopia Sprawl has completely different wording that allows the enchanted forest to actually produce extra mana.
Alright, never mind then. Screw that card. -_-
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
bennet: Concerning your decklist, there are some cards I find questionable (Dauntless Escort, Steward of Valeron, Fierce Empath, Acidic Slime, Day of Judgment, Mirari's Wake, Elspeth, Garruk, Burden of Guilt), but overall it appears to be solid. It is, of course, meant to be tailored to your own personal metagame, so you must decide what works best for YOU rather than copypasta someone else's decklists.
Not having seen your games firsthand, I would be hesitant to provide any feedback given that it cannot be anything more than speculation, but I can relate some of my experiences concerning my own Sisay and hopefully you can glean some useful information from that.
In my experience, Sisay is first and foremost a relatively aggressive midrange/prison deck. The first thing in your post that sends up red flags in my eyes as a Sisay pilot is, in summation, the statement that you "don't have enough removal."
Secondly that you find Thraximundar a threat. O.o
One thing that I seem to notice that your deck somewhat lacks is the redundancy of creature protection that me/Riley run - Dense Foliage, Steely Resolve, Sylvan Safekeeper (I CANNOT overstress how much of an MVP this guy is), Yavimaya Hollow, Benevolent Bodyguard, Devoted Caretaker, etc). Having already piloted a weaker Sisay version in the distant past, I can say that without these multiple layers of protection, yes creature kill will prove a problem. It still does, but it has to be of the extinction variety which Riley is encountering. They provide real protection which the cards you have simply do not do (Mommy has summoning sickness, Greaves/Boots can be responded to, Saffi/Dauntless doesn't protect against non-destroy effects) or the types in which you desperately hope that they have no workaround (Teeg, Hokori). The alternatives I listed provide instant and active protection the moment they hit ground (well, not the caretaker, but you get the idea). Sisay is too vulnerable to instant-speed removal, barring some good turn-cycles and/or managing to fire off a "screw you, I'm tutoring anyway" via 1k Elixir, she will die. A lot. Especially if an opponents have even the vaguest sense of how the deck works, which most should. If Sisay goes down like a 2 penny whore, the deck... does not do well, as I'm sure you know.
The second and far more subtle thing I noticed appears to be your needing "more removal." This seems to me to be a telling sign of a mindset that is too focused on becoming the controlling deck in a match, and this is not what Sisay wants to be and which she will lose at because that's not how she's built. Now I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think this is how Riley and/or Merdock play. For me, my Sisay is a midrange/prison deck that wants to disrupt the opponents' gameplan as quickly as possible and as brutally as possible so it can combo out and/or rofflestomp the opponent as fast as possible.
I know this because I fell into that trap. Gaddock Teeg and/or Hokori and/or Linvala will NOT hold the fort forever, so you need to get a steamroll building RIGHT QUICK that either provides an effective lock and/or life total punch-to-the-face. In my experience, the cards in your decklist I question I've found that they do not further this goal. None of those cards disrupt (acidic slime notwithstanding) or annihilate the opponent. They merely build up to an ever increasing power level. They win more. I didn't need a Mirari's Wake to turn my 1/1s into 2/2s and all my lands into karoos, I needed an Iona, Shield of Emeria to flip a middle finger to mono-colored decks, or a Mindslaver + Mistveil Plains to say "Mindslaver lock gg?" or Living Plane/Kamahl + Elesh Norn to say "oh sorry, did you need those lands?"
Sisay isn't a controlling deck and cannot sustain such a position. There is too little effective removal in white/green, practically no card draw, and no counterspells to speak of. The deck isn't a blue/black counter/kill-all and cannot be. When I tried to play it this way, it lost, a lot, because it was like trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.
The whole point of the deck is to build up creatures and good board position and combo/annihilate the opponent like a bully stealing their lunch money, and whenever I played Wrath of God, or even Myojin of Cleansing Fire, it always, always, always hurt me more than my opponents. A deck that is over one-third creatures has no business trying to wipe the board of the very resource it's trying to make. This is like a ramp deck full of land-fetch (Rampant Growth and friends) running Armageddon or an enchantment-based deck running Purify; it just doesn't make any sense.
I mean, granted there are some games you'll just plain lose and there was nothing you could've done at any point to prevent. It's a card game, and luck still plays a big role no matter what. Land screw kills even the best of players. But it seems to me that there are some cards and comments which are evident of more of a playstyle problem. I'd say this because I was once that kind of player with this deck.
For me, if I have no board, am facing an active Thraximundar, and am in topdeck mode, I've already lost. Wrath of God merely delays the inevitable. My board position is my hand, and my creatures are my card draw. I must build to an overwhelming crescendo that cascades into victory by hitting my opponents where it hurts most when it hurts most before I go for the jugular, because there is no time to do anything less. Parry, counter, dodge, and weave before you land the killing stroke, for there will be no second chances.
Oh, and Gaea's Cradle. That helps too.
Haha, either that or Yavimaya Hollow. Fun times.
The alternative options listed here are sadly quite terrible, and fail the "Edric test" (and for that matter, the Geist and Animar tests, too). Often, the things that you NEED to remove aren't the things that are attacking or blocking--or can't even be targeted due to hexproof or protection from white--so the majority of white removal out there is very much lacking. Because Edric, Geist, and Animar are all high tier (arguably all tier 1 generals), these cards simply should not be played.
Lack of efficient removal is a real problem for our colors. There have been times where I've found Lignify to be such an all-star (especially against 2 of 3 general listed above) that at one point I even ran Treefolk Harbinger, and he's quite truthfully playable (puts Savannah on top if nothing else). It's a "removal tutor" and often for the sort of removal that can win you games. Lignify is almost the ONLY way you can stop Animar, who will just stomp our deck on turn 3 or 4 if not disrupted.
Another option that I've currently got back in the deck is Tariff, and it's been a lot better to me since cutting the overall number of creatures and focusing even more on dealing with Tier 1 decks. For two mana, it can kill all three of the above generals without targeting them (if your opponent taps out to play them, which they are likely to do), and with each of those decks, you're probably going to win by sheer virtue of hitting consistent land drops, ramp, and abusive nonsense quicker and more consistently than your opponents can hope to come back. That makes Tariff an extremely valuable cards in some of our most difficult matchups. Against often protected generals like Zur, too, it's of course highly relevant.
Meh. =P
Again, I have to frame this in terms of "best decks in the Cokcatrice meta" because nothing else should factor into the tweaking process, but Hokori is just so irrelevant against decks that are good. Having gone through a long period of time where I played both Hokori and his artifact cousin for the redundancy, I keep them in mind in most games and I don't miss either. Hokori, especially, as a four drop is awkward enough in competing with Sisay, and he wants way waaay too many things to go right for him for the symmetry to be broken. I can get into more details if you'd like, but the bottom line is that Hokori and Orb aren't helping us against Tier 1 decks and are just winning us more games against the decks we're beating anyway.
I went with Primeval Titan for my Sigarda swap. I've had a similar experience as you in that Sigarda did wonders against Thrax (haha, oh poor sacrifice generals), so I've probably got a really biased view of her greatness right now. Still, I'm pretty certain she's better for us than Premival Titan (if you're running it).
I concur with all of this except for Dauntless Escort. He's a sort-of redundant Saffi and curves beautiful with the general, yet another card that demands to be spot removed--though sadly irrelevant vs. Infest and Mutilate (the latter of which I've only ever seen in Iname, but still). He's got a solid body, too, which I think makes him arguably slightly better than running Angelic Renewal, which.. can't attack.
Elspeth I'm on the fence about, but she certainly has game-winning potential, and is another "must-answer" card that can clear the way for Sisay. At 4 mana, though, she's becoming increasingly more dubious with the way the deck is evolving. She's really awesome for me, but not linchpin awesome. Still much more testing needed, but alternate win cons are never bad (see: Mirran Crusader in Geist or Army of the Damned in Iname).
Especially in the Cockatrice meta (and from recent French tournament top 8 evidence), Thrax eats aggro and aggro-control decks alive and is not too shabby vs. combo either; it's almost all instants and ALL MURDEROUS DEATH OMG. It plays a mean extinction game and makes crazy good use of both the -1/-1 enchantments. A creature-heavy version of Sisay is especially susceptible to getting wrecked by Thrax. As much as I love to tease Abnormality, the truth is that it's a rough matchup for us. At best, we might be able to claim 50/50, but I'm not quite that optimistic about the macthup yet.
A million times this. For most of the best deckbuilders, blue's primary role is for counterbackup for the general. All of our protection cards are our counterbackup, which also double as threats. It's weird as hell, but it works. It's what allows us to compete. So if any U/X deck is running 12-14 counters, then we're running the same amount in the form of creatures, enchantments, and equipment. Again, looks weird on the surface, but it's what Sisay is made of.
Well... that used to be true for me, that I was just concerned with being the fastest, but no longer. What changed? Faster decks, and decks with better control just had automatic wins vs. us. Indeed, to be a combo deck in this format, you have to have a fairly consistent turn 4 win (this means Animar and Iname at present, with the weird exception of the slower but much more resilient Karador as well), a feat Sisay isn't capable of without something insanely lucky like putting a Pattern of Rebirth on Academy Rector and saccing the Rector for Norn/Plane. Also, without access to black for hand disruption or blue for sweeper and spot removal backup, going all in on the Cockatrice meta in our colors means getting whooped (without, say, an all-in dedicated elfball theme that can deal lethal elf-ish damage in 4-5 turns).
Sure, we can outrace the decks that don't have a combo or tutor general at the helm just fine, or the weird generals that don't in some way produce card advantage, but of course.. those aren't the top tier generals. A combo Sisay build is not a tournament winning build, from what I've experienced. A Sisay deck that plays smart hosers and safer means of getting to the mid-game (and surviving past turn 4) definitely wants more removal. I still can't express how disappointed I am with the white miracle...
You're on the right track here: more hosers and more state-based disruption are fitting for Sisay, but I think they have to be lower on the curve and less depending on multi-card combos. Again, from experience and from getting whooped on the Cockatrice meta by faster, more disruptive decks.
Agreed, wrath effects not only hurt us more than our opponents, but the decks we really want to wrath are either piloted by smartypants who don't overextend, only win on the spot, or have so much built-in recursion that our wrath just delays our death a few turns.
Good insights, overall. We're mostly on the same page, but just have different meta experiences (how many times have I said THAT throughout the thread??).
I used to run Fierce Empath, and I love 'em still, but there were just better things that wanted to go into his spot. He's just proven to be much better for elfball and Animar who will almost certainly be casting his target. Also, I dropped all the 2-mana non-"haste" ramp effects from the deck and I'm not looking back. In a strong meta where everyone knows your game, killing a 2 drop dork like Rofellos or Bloom Tender or Cobra is a perfectly legitimate way to timewalk you and pull ahead, and it's happened to me more times than I can count. Burden of Guilt is interesting, and I'd say definitely better than Gelid Shackles. Interesting idea.
In brief, they're all very vulnerable and way way too slow. When I eventually whittled the combos down to the best and least variable combo of Living Plane and Linvala/Norn, even that was irrelevant vs. the faster combo decks and aggro decks that could pull off turn 4-5 lethal wins. You would really have to dedicate your deck to Enchantress Control (with plenty of cards that delay attackers) and abandon all other themes to make this one combo work. All of the other old Sisay combos are, sadly, way too dependent on far too many factors--and several turns too slow. And as aforementioned, no counter backup and no hand disruption means we're just begging for disappointment.
That's about all there is to it. This is about a 50/50 matchup, as Geist has to reserve his limited counters on your threats but has to eventually, y'know, PLAY stuff to win, so Geist has to take some big leaps of faith in trying to get there. As long as all of your cards are relevant and dangerous (and quite aggressive here), this matchup can go your way.
In general, I've found that if I'm stalling, it's mutual for my opponent. Normally he's meeting my plays and vice versa, tit for tat, resulting in us both going into topdeck mode or hoping to dig for a tutor, and that just takes a ton of experience and so much deck tweaking that comes from meta consciousness. But yeah, in this particular instance, just keep playing threats. Tapping out against control decks is the right thing to do, because they probably won't have an answer for everything. Whatever sticks has the potential of being the nail in their coffin.
Alright, guys! I've got an updated list that is hot as hell. It includes the latest set's goodies, and I'm feeling really great about it and sad that I can't bring it into the tournament right now, haha. I've finally figured out the best amount of lands and the greatest lands to run and have never been more happy with the mana base, found an awesome balance of creatures-to-control, added some really versatile answers that don't disappoint across matchups, and found the best ramp options that don't leave us at all vulnerable to blowouts against control decks.
But for now, I'm going to bed. ;P
I'll update this thread tomorrow, including the OP with my latest decklist and some explanations for the latest cuts and additions.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
Currently I swapped out Weathered Wayfarer for Sigarda. Maybe prime time would be the better idea. I guess I should test it out and see.
Honestly I think the elephant in the room is that Sisay just doesn't have access to blue or black and that white/green has, historically, been a really weak color combination. Can WotC print cards that will change this dynamic? Maybe, but I'm just not sure how much tweaking can be done since that stark fact will always sit there. Sure, Knight of the Reliquary and Fauna Shaman are great additions to the team, but do they stack up to Thoughtseize and Spell Snare? I don't know. I think just a simple, philosophical discussion the matter would be beneficial.
Random ideas that came to mind:
Drop of Honey/Porphyry Nodes (they get around protection/shroud/hexproof...)
Ghostly Prison and/or Windborn Muse
And random jank:
Icatian Javelineers
Freyalise Supplicant
Planar Collapse
Hornet Sting
Last Breath
Reprisal
Have you seen the results of SCG Legacy Opens lately? G/W Maverick has been kicking some major ass and top 8-ing all over the place. =P
But the big difference between the two formats is the 10 point life difference, and those 10 points allow slow-rolling decks to build locks or a few more turns to win with a combo, and that makes a world of difference. Also: some of the Legacy banned cards that were at one time ruining Legacy are legal in this format, such as Oath of Druids and Skullclamp, and their presence forces us to have more maindeck hate and be ever vigilant of which decks are abusing these already easily abuseable cards the most. This means that there are decks capable of insane blow-outs in this format slightly more than in Legacy, and we don't have the luxury of boarding in a consistent number of hate cards.
I'm getting a little off topic with that, but I only mean to say that G/W is fine in this format (and my build plays just about every top 8 Legacy staple plus redundant alternatives), and the struggles we face are the same frustrations that other decks face, and even against blue and black decks, crazy/crazier things resolve and win games by a mile. This is why adding more control really really makes sense and we should only include the bare minimum number of cards required to win.
At one point or another, I've considered or played all of these cards (haha, with the admitted exception of Freyalise Supplicant), and most of them fail to address the major problematic matchups we have, or just aren't diverse enough. Last Breath only just makes the cut for me, despite being useless against Oath and Extinction builds (and, yeah, Geist and Animar), it's very vital in a good number of other matchups. I've only ever seen Drop/Nodes work in Oath decks, as it's a card that has to be built around. Definitely not right for Sisay.
Alright, without further ado, here's my latest build:
1 Captain Sisay
Legends (7):
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Creatures (19):
1 Benevolent Bodyguard
1 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Avacyn’s Pilgrim
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Sun Titan
Artifacts (7):
1 Expedition Map
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Thousand-Year Elixir
1 Trinisphere
1 Exploration
1 Burgeoning
1 Land Tax
1 Wild Growth
1 Journey to Nowhere
1 Lignify
1 Steely Resolve
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Aura Shards
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Nevermore
Instants (10):
1 Tithe
1 Mana Tithe
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Nature's Claim
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Last Breath
1 Beast Within
Sorceries (6):
1 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Nature's Lore
1 Three Visits
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Tariff
Planeswalkers (1):
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Legendary Lands (5):
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Pendelhaven
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Yavimaya Hollow
4 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Command Tower
1 Savannah
1 Temple Garden
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Wooded Bastion
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Brushland
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Reflecting Pool
1 City of Brass
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Treetop Village
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
1 Rishadan Port
1 Mutavault
1 Homeward Path
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Wasteland
1 Tectonic Edge
A few notes:
Tectonic Edge was sorely missed. It had to come back in to deal with Wolf Runs, making 3-5 color decks sad, killing opposing Gaea's Cradles, killing Rishdan Port, etc. I'd got as far as saying that this probably belongs in every French deck.
Dryad Arbor is back in to address the rise again in Clique. Also, it's still a valid GSZ target on turn 1 against certain decks (though still dangerous against extinction builds who have plenty of kill spells to spare, so play with caution). Can be pitched to Survival, if nothing else.
Cavern of Souls is as amazing as you'd think. 'nough said.
Kor Haven didn't make the cut (..again). I figured that it would help in those inevitable matches where my opponent either ramped to their really mana intensive general or cheated in something fat and amazing via Survival or Oath of Druids, and this would buy me time. It has not worked out that way. The nature of the "all-in" creatures in this format is that when they swing, they're swninging for the win because of their "swing" abilities. For example, this card effectively does nothing against Emrakul, Zur, Primeval Titan, Thrax, and others. And ultimately, having 7 lands contributed to one too many games where I had just colorless sources in my opener, so I knew I needed another basic.
City of Brass became Cavern of Souls, which has been fine thus far. I think I've finally figured out the perfect amount and types of lands for the deck. 38 seems to be the absolute magic number (plus the ramp, fixers, tutoring, and dork options) for this deck, but this is always a work in progress.
Basic land count has been upped to 8, which is both because Wild Growth is so amazing (and never wants to be equipped on a nonbasic), to give Land tax more oomph, and to limit the effects of Blood Moon on us. This seems to be the right amount.
Tariff shines when needed, which is more often than you'd think.
Sylvan Scrying and Expedition Map are both testing extremely well and I highly recommend them both. There's almost always some land you want for whatever situation is on the board.
Nevermore can win games. It seems like an oddball, but it can be one of our only hopes against the three Tier 1 combo decks in the format. It also randomly shuts off things you know can hose you, and is another must-answer card that has tested well in the past and is testing well again.
Exploration and Burgeoning are my latest additions, and they have been testing extremely well. Note that one of the biggest issues we face against the majority of our toughest matchups, particularly vs. combo, is that, from lots of experience, I'm always either one land drop or one mana short of blowing out my opponent with my own degenerate play. Because I almost always have extra mana in hand and it does nothing for me while in my hand (other than maybe soften the blow of Hymn?), these cards do work. Furthermore, dropping land backup for Sisay in the form of Hollow, Homeward Path, Rishadan Port, Castle, or playing Gaea's Cradle and extending your plays that turn is amazingly busted. I'll still be testing these lands with scrutiny, but they're doing everything I want them to do right now and are great regardless of matchup.
Trinisphere, too, is another card that address troublesome matchups (chiefly Animar, but also elf ball and other really dedicated aggro decks like Lyzolda and Isamaru) and functions as a pseudo-City of Solitude against control decks. It's not completely asymmetrical, however, and requires more testing. Seems good so far, though.
Dauntless Escort is a must-answer pre-Sisay drop with a solid 3/3 body. Wraths and pyroclasms are ever-present in the meta today (as well as plenty of spells that spot-remove Sisay in a "kill" or "damage" way), and Escort helps. He may not make future cuts, but so far he's testing well.
And finally, Sigarda, Host of Herons is our ultimate mid-range beater with evasion and hex-proof and a very relevant protection effect for your creatures. In some ways, she's a better Thrun and curves with the deck well. I'll still be looking at her critically over time, but so far she seems appropriate for the deck.
Thoughts? Criticisms? Chuckles?
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
Hard to say just yet, but your assessment isn't inaccurate. That is, it will certainly almost always be just a tiny speed boost--but this isn't a bad thing at all for a deck that just wants to put it all out there and say "deal with it," shades and all.
But I admit, Burgeoning began as an afterthought in trying to get some sort of redundancy with Exploration for testing purposes. The more I see both cards, the better idea I'll get (quicker) about their viability.
Generally though, having a high number of really strong one-drops that set me up for a quick and/or protected Sisay has long been the goal with the deck's one-drops (and proven really important in this fast and brutal meta more than any other goal in the deck, I'd argue), from elves to Sylvan Safekeeper, and both Burgeoning and Exploration have the potential to do both of these things at once (in protection lands or dropping that crucial 5th mana for both playing Safekeeper/Bodyguard and Sisay on the same turn, a turn or two before I'm supposed to have done this). The more "sure" ramp also allows me to punish control and temp decks that much harder, especially decks like Geist and Edric who are only equipped to possibly disrupt one thing per turn (and must ration counters to protect their own advancement).
But more to the point: is Explore better than Burgeoning, as the latter is more dependent on my opponent and a worse topdeck? That's ostensibly the case, but the cost of 2 makes me skeptical for a one-time effect and is not as great on the curve. Effects that draw 1 card one-time or even 2 at a time (Skullclamp tested poorly, which is odd, right?) don't seem to help this deck, in my experience. It's the tutoring and the redundancy leading to explosive early turns that makes all the difference.
Bottom line is that more testing is (always) needed, but I've got a really strong hunch that these cards are the sort of thing I've been looking for.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
Thank you for the reply. And well said! 1 CC spells are just fantastic, especially 1 CC permanents that are always sort of "doing something." These two enchantments also increase the deck's focus on getting a fast and protected sisay out (if I understand correctly).
Another question: how long have you been running expedition map and sylvan scrying and would you ever consider cutting them? I suppose not ever now due to having Cavern of Souls (edited) huh? Makes control really think carefully about countering your "bad land search" cards huh?
You've got some really interesting stuff going on in this deck and especially with this most recent list. I bolded the part of your response that is most important to me - identifying your deck's greatest strengths and abusing them to the max. Good stuff.
I can't say I agree with everything Riley has done, but I'm glad it seems to be working well. Thalia has been great for me, and I wouldn't cut it.
Trinisphere seems very, very out of place. I suspect that will end up being WAY too awkward and get cut, but we'll see.
My biggest issue with my list right now is the mana base. I'm currently running 39 lands (since missing a land drop with this deck is pretty devastating in the first 4-5 turns), but have found that i have a few too many colorless sources. I'm probably going to cut out a lot of the cards that are only useful in weird, fringe circumstances and play all the dual lands. Even cards like Windswept Heath haven't been testing particularly well.
I agree with Dauntless Escort. It's a card that fell in and out of my builds a while back, but I hadn't really reconsidered him until Riley mentioned him again. Definitely a good answer to some of Sisay's problems in the metagame.
As it is I still feel far more comfortable with my decklist's more creature-based approach (we now differ by 10+ on our creature count!), and it has worked well for me so far, but I'd love to her how your testing goes. I saw you were 2-0 in the tournament a while back. How did that end up going?
Thank you, sir! You certainly know your enchantments, so your endorsement carries some weight. ;P
Sylvan Scrying and Crop Rotation have come in and out of the deck multiple times pre-Cavern, but I think Sylvan and the less risky Expedition Map are now mainstays. At their worst, they can grab me Wasteland which is rarely ever a bad target. The sheer amount of other utility lands (and, now, Exploration and Burgeoning) means that there's always something powerful that can be done with these two cards. In any event, I've not been sad to see them in my testing even in non-control matchups, and sometimes I treat Scrying as a sort of Three Visits in that it allows me to fetch Ancient Tomb at will, a pretty strong play.
She's been on my mind lately as a decent pre-Sisay drop (though would never be tutored up post-Sisay) to maaaybe make a counter spell or removal spell cost one more (at which point, my opponent should have three lands open, anyway), so she didn't make the cut. She also really hurt my own gameplan too much when I ran her, as my non-creature options really really want to be cast at their actual mana cost and having to wait an extra turn is as ruinous for me as it is for my opponents--and that's what I determined before my non-creature count jumped to 36. I think she's a much much better fit in Merdock's deck and, really, most W or G/W decks in the meta. Certainly playable in French, but just not quite right for Sisay.
Trinisphere is definitely a flex spot that may get the boot in short order, but the spot is reserved for "something to help fight Animar" and hopefully be versatile in other matches (and not be easy to remove). Ethersworn Canonist, though more tutorable, is also both more targetable (easily bounceable vs Animar) and narrow vs the majority of other decks. Sphere has the potential to annoy more decks--including our own. I won't pretend like it's is the best card in the world for us or solves all of our problems, but it does have potential. Nevertheless, I admit that I'm already looking at Treefolk Harbinger again for the spot because, dammit, Lignify is THAT good. I did drop Oust in my latest creation, so I'll probably be hurting for another removal option before long.
(I have been made aware of a certain Tropical Storm card, but..)
To help solve the "too many colorless lands" problem, I would cut Deserted Temple and Kor Haven first for two more basics. I'm confused as to how fetchlands like Windswept Heath could ever be a bad thing unless you're facing off against a ton of Blood Moon effects and feel like you need more basics? Did you mean Windbrisk Heights?
I'm currently 2-1 in the tournament, having lost to a omgmakeme's Zur in some extremely close games that could have gone either way. I've been taking pretty heavy notes about the experience and I'll definitely be sharing every detail. Tomorrow I face off against Capitacom's Olivia in round 4 and, let's be honest, will soon be 2-2. -_-
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Kor haven I definitely want to cut, since it has done next to nothing despite seeming quite good on paper. Deserted temple has actually been okay, since generating double mana with stuff like cradle is occasionally useful, but you're right that it's probably not worth the abnormal mana that the colorless tap costs me.
Oust is awesome! Why did you cut that?!
Oust is better than nothing, but it's terrible at what it does. It doesn't actually deal with troublesome creatures (which are becoming less frequent as more decks go all in on their general with a ton of control, and it's even worse against all the ETB creatures that these decks are packing). It's also bad at dealing with generals, and the Sorcery speed preventing me from responding to equips has been an actual issue. Also, very often, my opponent will opt to tuck the general and just recast it at its normal cost. This hasn't been buying me enough time and I've been really let down by it.
That said, Trinisphere has indeed been irrelevant in too many matchups, so that's where I want more removal or a tutor for removal. That means either Banishing Stroke, Treefolk Harbinger, or Sterling Grove are the three best candidates, imo. For speed issues, Grove might not get me where I need to be fast enough, but it's certainly more versatile and can grab me Survival to steal a win as well as being able to nab Oblivion Ring/Journey and other decent targets. On the other hand, Treefolk Harbinger (who is himself more tutorable) can get my Lignify quickly, something that's becoming increasingly more relevant with decks that are 2/3-control-plus their-General rising in the meta (and was responsible for one of my wins in a tournament match in an otherwise hopeless matchup where traditional removal would have lost me the game handily). Banishing Stroke is diverse, but it also runs the risk of being useless until way late in the game, at which point the mana cost sucks. For now, I'll be giving Harbinger another chance in the spot, keeping Sterling Grove in mind, which was quite good to me in earlier builds.
I try to keep Stag in mind especially as he's just a fantastic one-card win condition vs some U/B decks, but finding the space is difficult. I'd definitely still recommend running him if your meta is more counter heavy. But yeah, currently the Cockatrice meta has a big mix of colors, and Cavern seems sufficient at hosing U control.
I've been having a great experience with her as well. She's such a fantastic tutor target for whenever, as flying and hexproof is enough to win games by themselves without the usual need for Norn. This has lead to some great scenarios where I can just keep Yavimaya Hollow up to protect Sisay and not have to worry about protecting Sisay's Legendary target, too.
I've got my eye on Tracker, but I suspect he's better in a build that has at least 10 more creatures than we do, and will otherwise strictly be a card that wants to be played turn 2 to kill the probably turn 2 Animar. It's still a nevertheless awesome ability that I'm probably not seeing the big picture of yet. I ought to test it. I don't think I've seen anyone playing it yet, but Sisay might be the right deck for it.
Hmm, I feel like in the games where that awesome sort of chain happens, we've already got winning matchups (and, generally, we want as many creatures on the board as possible for the always relevant Cradle boost and Norn finishers). But against Tier 1 decks? They'll either just win before Birthing Pod becomes relevant or remove our targets at instant speed. The card itself is fantastic, I won't deny that, but I'm wary of its usefulness in a "top 8" setting. I think I need to see it for myself to believe it, but my inclination (and experience) left a smirky expression on my face.
I like it. The main reason I took him out is because he wasn't getting active enough and I wanted to cut down on those "if, then" cards, but here I am still running Land Tax to great effect. But yeah, Pyroclasm effects and sweepers and what not also made me smirky about him. YMMV, but he's probably good enough for inclusion if you find yourself wanting more ways to tutor up Cavern of Souls, Wasteland, etc.
Super Friends control decks are a nightmare once they get rolling. Mutavault has pulled me out of many binds, usually involved Liliana of the freaking Veil (ARHGHGHGGHG). It's also been a solid Jitte/Sword carrier post-wrath, and a finisher for Norn who is increasingly entering into the field alone due to prior removals/wraths. Colorless hurts, but the activation cost of 1 is just about perfect.
...which is why Wildwood always hurt me so. Tying up 4 mana for a manland is not ideal, and I found myself almost never doing it, always having better options for the mana--even if that option was just "recast Sisay." It's amazing how good that play is. ;P Nevertheless, it's still a valid 2-mana land and may go back into the deck eventually. I was trying to limit the amount of etbt tapped lands, yeah, and trying to tweak the balance of Basics for Land Tax purposes and safe Wild Growth targets as well as improving our odds of winning against red decks that drop Blood Moon turn 3.
Woohoo, I just finished my semester last night! Let's flood Cockatrice with Sisay, k? ;P I'm really glad you're enjoying the deck. I spend entirely way too much time obsessing over it. -_-
I can't wait to share my tournament experience. Kwiznek and I even had a chance to play a "what if?" match not long ago, as we'd missed out on playing each other round 1, so I've got EVEN MORE long-winded narratives for you all, yaay!
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Exactly one day after this very Primer thread went up, someone posted this Sisay list on Tapped Out, using the same title as the Primer here. Coincidence? Perhaps all Sisay players are huge perverts. From the description: "One day, Jasmine Boreal and Captain Sisay were having hot lesbian sex, when Captain Sisay decided to host a pool party for all her super sexy friends. Chainmail bikinis optional."
Ahahaha wtf.
In other news, I'm currently 3-2 in the Salvation tourney and will be battling it out in the play-offs between two others for the final top 8 spot. I'm so bored of this version of the deck though, haha. I want my Cavern of Souls and better overall land base! Not to mention Sigarda. It's funny... Sigarda may have actually won me a game in my last tourney match where Primeval Titan was, y'know, able to be spot-removed. Siiigh.
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EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
But then I had streusel-topped blueberry muffins and all was well in the world.
You may have your victory, but I have muffins!
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I always assumed it was you...
To anyone who's ever urged me to run more enchantment and artifact removal: point well taken.
I've just added Krosan Grip to the deck for reasons that will become abundantly clear when I share the tournament report.
For now, I think I can do without Steelshaper's Gift. Yes, you'd be amazed at how often I need to tutor up my own Jitte in response to my opponent's before Sisay hits the board, or just how much of a random hoser Sword of Fire and Ice can be, but.. I don't know what else to take out? Everything else is playing quite well, I think. Testing, testing.
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Outside of the 3-4 we have its pretty minimal.
Perhaps a DOJ/Wrath/'X"
Do you perhaps have a list of green/white removal that would be useful, as I think DOJ would be counter-intuative sometimes.
Just my opinion.
Also, is Wild Pair worth keeping?