You are seriously letting your deck fall short if you don't side in phantasmal Image. There are so many value creature's to copy. I have been thinking about mainboarding 2.
I have made a few change's and will be testing this throughout the week. haven't been playing this as much as of late, but hopefully I can get some testing done at FNM we will see.
Phantasmal Image is a 5-star card, don't get me wrong. I'm a huge fan of it and play UGR Pod just for the images....
But, in this deck it would be a sideboard card for me. I truly enjoy playing creatureless and creating dead cards in my opponet's deck. By running something like 1-4 creatures, you are just drawing a bulls-eye on Mage/Sphinx/Image or whatever you want to run maindeck.
So, if I'm siding it, the question becomes "What matchup should I bring it in against?"
I found during testing that it wasn't enough to beat Wolf Run. I'd Image a Thrunn, but lose to everything else, especially 6 toughness Titans. The Wolf Run match was sooo terrible I just punt it. So, I really don't want Image here.
It's good vs. stuff like Frites, but then again so is Surgical Extraction. I also use Surgical Extraction in the control mirror. So, really for me Image really became a casuality of "not enough sideboard room" and the "auto-lose" matchups.
I'm curious. With all of the new red draw around + Reforge the Souls + Past in Flames, is it possible to do a more combo-ish mono-red build that uses both Vengeance and Shrine of Burning Rage as win conditions?
Hey guys, I'm back! I kinda lost interest in the deck, and I've been playing/thinking about Magic a lot less lately, but I stumbled across this thread again accidentally after looking for some post-M13 stuff, and I decided to make a new list.
Yes, the list is counterless. Lingering Souls synergises with planeswalkers and wants Sphere of the Suns, all of which point towards a more tap-out oriented approach. I'm still undecided as to if I want to play a few Dissipates in the main, but some things would have to change.
I'm only playing one Snapcaster because there aren't enough good targets, and he functions best with counterspells. I'm well aware he can flashback a sweeper, but the deck doesn't need the extra flashback thanks to Lingering Souls and he's not been fantastic when I do draw him. I'm actually considering playing a Phantasmal Image in the slot, because the deck needs more outs to Geist of Saint Traft, particularly with a sword attached.
I'm on the fence about Karn vs Gideon. Karn kills Swords and Titans, which is a big plus in his favour, but he can be really slooooooow. Gideon is a more reliable win condition (even if he only hits once or twice, it's a fair chunk of damage), he's much better defensively, and can situationally kill Titans too.
The sideboard would include a few copies of Dissipate, Timely Reinforcements, Phantasmal Image, a split of Revoke/O-ring/Ancient Grudge, some sweepers, and extra removal.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Hey guys, I'm back! I kinda lost interest in the deck, and I've been playing/thinking about Magic a lot less lately, but I stumbled across this thread again accidentally after looking for some post-M13 stuff, and I decided to make a new list.
Yes, the list is counterless. Lingering Souls synergises with planeswalkers and wants Sphere of the Suns, all of which point towards a more tap-out oriented approach. I'm still undecided as to if I want to play a few Dissipates in the main, but some things would have to change.
I'm only playing one Snapcaster because there aren't enough good targets, and he functions best with counterspells. I'm well aware he can flashback a sweeper, but the deck doesn't need the extra flashback thanks to Lingering Souls and he's not been fantastic when I do draw him. I'm actually considering playing a Phantasmal Image in the slot, because the deck needs more outs to Geist of Saint Traft, particularly with a sword attached.
I'm on the fence about Karn vs Gideon. Karn kills Swords and Titans, which is a big plus in his favour, but he can be really slooooooow. Gideon is a more reliable win condition (even if he only hits once or twice, it's a fair chunk of damage), he's much better defensively, and can situationally kill Titans too.
The sideboard would include a few copies of Dissipate, Timely Reinforcements, Phantasmal Image, a split of Revoke/O-ring/Ancient Grudge, some sweepers, and extra removal.
Thoughts guys?
Your list seems solid, however i highly recommend you to use Gideon Jura, he can be a game winner against aggro and he's a great finisher.
If the game goes late I can't see wanting to restart from a Karn Ult. You will lose the entire point of using BV with all your draw/lingering souls spells exiled.
After some thought, I decided to drop Snapcaster. It's awesome when you have 6 counterspells and 4+ removal spells, but this deck only has 4 non-sweeper targets and it was simply a let-down every time I drew it. The 2/1 body doesn't do a whole lot more than chump-block in such an aggressive meta, and the flashback isn't needed like in a non-Lingering version.
I can't decide what to do with my bomb suite. My options are Tamiyo, Gideon, Entreat, Consecrated Sphinx, Wurmcoil, Devil's Play, and Elesh Norn.
Tamiyo seems good on paper, and she can tap down sworded creatures and Titans, but her ultimate isn't that fantastic and if they have two creatures they can just move the sword. Entreat, again, seems great on paper, as it just wins games out of nowhere and is great on both offence and defence, but on the other hand it cops splash hate from Ratchet Bomb, and is just bad against Vapor Snag unless X>3.
Consecrated Sphinx simply wins if you untap with it, is practically impossible for RG decks to kill, and is a nice beefy blocker when you need it — great against swords. I've always been a big fan of a single copy, and given the lack of Doom Blade-esque cards in the meta, I'm going to try out one in the main. Devil's Play is a staple that doubles as a removal spell in a pinch, is great going into the lategame, and is a fantastic backup win-con.
Elesh Norn and Wurmcoil just seem too slow right now, but I might be wrong. Elesh isn't anywhere near as good now that Blade Splicer and Restoration Angel live through it, and Wurmcoil has always sucked vs Snag. That said, either has the power to turn a game around, and Elesh is great with Lingering, so watch this space.
Seriously, Burning Vengance is so ridiculously underrated. I wish more people would play it. It's got a somewhat decent matchup against almost everything except Wolf Run and Zombies. (And we auto-lose to Thrunn). I got to the point where I don't even bother siding Phantasmal Images anymore. I think the deck is *very* difficult to play, so I think people play it badly and then think it's terrible and give up on it.
Anyways, mini-rant aside, LOL, I went 4-0 (1 ID) with this at FNM last night. Played a *great* Delver player twice in the tourney and won all 4 games against him. (once in swiss, once in top 4). Only game I lost all night was a mull to 5 vs. tokens.
I like to keep the deck UR as much as possible. Really, I would like to go back down to 3 Grottos, but I feel like I want Burning Oil with Delver running around. I've cut Dissipate down to 2 so I can not rely on UU that much, I've thought about cutting them or running a couple Negate main.
Grotto stings the mana a little, but I think it's better than going into a bunch of other innistrad or scars dual lands. Plus, I really only use it for the flashback of 3 cards. (Which ironically are 3 different colors). Alchemy you aren't happening till late game anyways. Grudge's flashback is kind of rare. Even burning Oil's usually doesn't happen that early, so the Grottos seems to work better than I thought they would. I just hate seeing the "double Grotto" opening hand with a mountain or something.
Forbidden Alchemy makes the deck go. And for you people playing blue/red, I don't understand why you play Faithless Looting. In my opinion, it is clearly inferior to Deserpate Ravings, Think Twice, and Forbidden Alchemy.
Another bright side of game 1, is without lingering souls, I am completely creaturesless. This means that you create card advantage because your opponet's removal spells are dead game 1, except for oblivion ring. Downside is you have to kill almost everything that attacks you, but if they are too agressive you can clear the board with Slagstorm. This deck is usually the control deck in most matchups, it will generally out draw the other control decks in card advantage.
I love in game 2 surprising people by bringing in the 2 Wurmcoil Engine. Most people will take out their creature removal against you. Acutally, in a funny story, against the Delver player round 1, I wrecked him with Wurmcoil Engine in game 2. He's a good player, so when we played in the top 4, I knew he would remember that. I expected him to bring in Phantasmal Image for my wurmcoils, so I left the Wurmcoils in the board and made his Images fairly weak in that match. I probably would have brought Wurmcoil back in game 3.
Why do you want to keep the deck UR? It gains so much from adding a splash colour. And it's definitely not better than adding duals — it adds 1 to all your off-colour spells, making them inherently worse. Your mana needs work, ironically given it's an essentially two-colour deck.
The whole point of Lingering Souls is that your opponents removal is ineffective against it... try Doom Blading one of my four Spirit tokens. Yeah, nice zero-for-one.
The reason your Wolf Run matchup is bad is because you're playing zero cards that deal with resolved threats. You need cards like Oblivion Ring, Go for the Throat and Day of Judgment if you want to beat Titans. And if you're going to play UR, at least take full advantage of it and play Ghost Quarters! And why aren't you boarding Flashfreezes if it's a problem matchup?
You should be having absolutely zero mana problems... even my FOUR colour version can support Dissipate mana. Considering UR has so few ways to deal with anything that hits the board, I'd definitely play the third main.
I also have a big problem with your flashback suite. 12 draw spells is too many, and especially playing just Grottos, running 4 Alchemy is a bad idea. I know you see it as the key to the deck, but it's actually not that good — it's just too expensive. You don't want to see more than one or two in a game, and so I really wouldn't run the set. I'd also strongly suggest trying out one or two USZ. It's amazing in the lategame and flat-out wins if you get an opening on their endstep.
Running four Geistflame and four Burning Oil is just bad. The cards on their own simply don't do enough. I understand you want to cram a ton of flashback in there for value, but you're better off playing cards that have more raw power on their own. Playing a number of copies of both is respectable, but not four of each. Your deck is far too reliant on Burning Vengeance itself, and without it the deck becomes a pile of subpar cards.
BTW, you don't have to use card tags within deck tags, it does it for you.
You are seriously letting your deck fall short if you don't side in phantasmal Image. There are so many value creature's to copy. I have been thinking about mainboarding 2.
I have made a few change's and will be testing this throughout the week. haven't been playing this as much as of late, but hopefully I can get some testing done at FNM we will see.
Why Bonfire? In a deck playing next to no creatures, half the point of the card — being a one-sided sweeper — is completely lost. I realise that it's a single red and hits the opponent, but it's heavily overcosted for its effect in a control deck, and its scaleability is hampered by its obscene hardcast cost. More BSZs or Slagstorm just seem like a much, much better options.
Whipflare over Slagstorm? I can see your colour concerns for the same reason as Bonfire and I realise it's more of a personal preference, but I'd still consider playing a split all the same, especially as Bonfire doesn't very effectively deal with x/3s unless you miracle it.
Why Cavern in the Board? Isn't it a waste of a sideboard slot? I'd rather play an extra Surgical or Negate, as they end up doing similar things, but Cavern is less reliably generating virtual CA as you need to land one of your creature when they would have otherwise successfully countered it (and have named the correct type, another strike against it IMO with a 2/1 split of bombs).
You only have one card in the entire 75 that reliably deals with a resolved Sword or Birthing Pod, and that seems like asking for trouble to me. Why not add a second Crush, or even splash for Ancient Grudge? I've always found that a resolved Pod or Sword presents a huge problem for the deck and while it's beatable, it certainly makes it difficult without a sweeper or two lying around.
I'm curious. With all of the new red draw around + Reforge the Souls + Past in Flames, is it possible to do a more combo-ish mono-red build that uses both Vengeance and Shrine of Burning Rage as win conditions?
It's been tried before, in a number of different shells, but it's not a BV deck — it's a Reforge/Past in Flames deck that happens to play BV. Besides, I believe Tokens + Rituals + Burn at the Stake/Chancellor of the Forge ended up being better, IIRC.
Besides, this thread is dedicated to the BV control deck; I think the title is a little misleading.
Any reason not to run Tibalt? It's a smaller Desperate Ravings but works as a constant threat on the board
It's not a constant threat, because it's not a threat at all. It's not like Desperate Ravings, because it's not card advantage and doesn't have flashback. It's a totally different card altogether.
The +1 is rather pointless. You get to draw a card at random, and then discard a card at random. All you're doing is giving yourself the chance to completely screw up your hand. Sure you could discard a Think Twice or Ravings, but do you really want to do that? You could have just paid the same mana as Tibalt cost in the first place and got it in the yard, and yielded essentially the same effect, minus the card disadvantage.
The -4 is hardly a threat against anything but UB control — even Solar Flare plays Lingering Souls to kill Tibalt before it's relevant. And even if you get it off for, say, 6 damage (if you're lucky) — then what? You've essentially played a card that reads "Suspend 4:RR. Flip a coin. If you win deal 6 damage to an opponent."
Likewise, the -6 isn't much of a threat, because if you're doing your job properly they shouldn't have anything worth grabbing. If the Tibalt is still miraculously alive (and your hand hasn't been completely butchered by 4+ turns of random discard), then it probably means they have nothing worth stealing.
If the game goes late I can't see wanting to restart from a Karn Ult. You will lose the entire point of using BV with all your draw/lingering souls spells exiled.
Good point. Forgot about losing Flashback spells permanently.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Sticking a Wurmcoil on the board can often mean game over for aggro decks. 6/6 on a life link that produces two extra cards when it dies is pretty fantastic. Maybe as a SB option?
Also, what about Inferno Titan? I've heard of some variants using him, and the idea of getting an arc lightning when he lands/swings seems pretty good.
Sticking a Wurmcoil on the board can often mean game over for aggro decks. 6/6 on a life link that produces two extra cards when it dies is pretty fantastic. Maybe as a SB option?
Also, what about Inferno Titan? I've heard of some variants using him, and the idea of getting an arc lightning when he lands/swings seems pretty good.
I really like Wurmcoil, but I just don't know whether he's worth it or not. I'll try him out again over the Consecrated Sphinx and see how he goes.
Inferno Titan is also an option, but much like Frost or Sun Titan, he's not quite as good as the others. He certainly can be powerful, however, so if you want to run him go ahead.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Maybe going down to 1 bonfire of the damned isn't a bad option, but keeping with it is something I am a huge fan of. It's never a bad thing to play it for x=1, deal's with a lot of threat's, especially Spirit's and mana dude's. Bonfire of the damned also become's a good play at instant speed at my oppo. eot.
It is a personal preference but I think whipflare will be a better option more time's then not. I don't like straining a mana base to require a double RR UU BB etc. Overall it's too greedy and you will not reliably hit that 100% of the time in any given 3 color deck on turn 3.
Cavern of souls is in there for the Consecrated Sphinx and Wurmcoil Engine. We are seeing a wave of counter's come back and on that turn six, I want to reliably hit that titan. I will be in a position where I need to recover some life or draw an answer. And it's very easy for a U player to hold Mana Leak mana open. 2 cavern of souls does not hurt the mana base as it only has 3 colorless sources (with cavern of souls included). I am even inclined to add in a desolate lighthouse or two for the card filtering. I would do this over faithless looting because it's instant speed, CA is not lost, and it's 1 card vs 2 on faithless.
I am really just waiting on smelt to be legal, then I will devote more slot's to artifact removal. It is never hard to in response burn the creature being equipped, especially a mana dork. I will make them pay whenever possible to try and equip, this will slow them down and really gives me a tempo advantage. Ancient grudge though is not hard to splash in. In fact I played the other day and every time i saw my singleton forest, it got the random discard via desperate ravings. I had to just lol about it as I found it hilarious.
EDIT: Nicol Bolas over Consecrated Sphinx maybe?
EDIT 2: And I forgot about Augur of Bolas! Although it encourages tapping out on turn 2, so Leak becomes less effective. It requires a bit of an overhaul, so I'll let this list stand as an Augur-less option.
Maybe going down to 1 bonfire of the damned isn't a bad option, but keeping with it is something I am a huge fan of. It's never a bad thing to play it for x=1, deal's with a lot of threat's, especially Spirit's and mana dude's. Bonfire of the damned also become's a good play at instant speed at my oppo. eot.
If Bonfire was an instant then I'd agree with its inclusion 100%. My problem is that it's inferior to Slagstorm or BSZ in almost every case, and it's not uncommon to miracle it on their turn without enough mana open, hampering its usefulness. My main point, I suppose, is that it costs a whopping seven mana to be a Slagstorm. You don't want your sweeper to only be useful for one or two damage. That's simply inefficient.
It is a personal preference but I think whipflare will be a better option more time's then not. I don't like straining a mana base to require a double RR UU BB etc. Overall it's too greedy and you will not reliably hit that 100% of the time in any given 3 color deck on turn 3.
Cavern of souls is in there for the Consecrated Sphinx and Wurmcoil Engine. We are seeing a wave of counter's come back and on that turn six, I want to reliably hit that titan. I will be in a position where I need to recover some life or draw an answer. And it's very easy for a U player to hold Mana Leak mana open. 2 cavern of souls does not hurt the mana base as it only has 3 colorless sources (with cavern of souls included). I am even inclined to add in a desolate lighthouse or two for the card filtering. I would do this over faithless looting because it's instant speed, CA is not lost, and it's 1 card vs 2 on faithless.
What I meant was that it's taking up a sideboard slot for seemingly little reason.
Also, when you play Cavern you have to name a creature type at the time you play it. If you don't have your titan in hand, you'll have to pick one, and it's going to be awkward if you draw the other.
I am really just waiting on smelt to be legal, then I will devote more slot's to artifact removal. It is never hard to in response burn the creature being equipped, especially a mana dork. I will make them pay whenever possible to try and equip, this will slow them down and really gives me a tempo advantage. Ancient grudge though is not hard to splash in. In fact I played the other day and every time i saw my singleton forest, it got the random discard via desperate ravings. I had to just lol about it as I found it hilarious.
Im also back to BV mainly for after rotation and my Grand Architect deck rotates but I like BV and Bolas is a boss, ill be starting testing soon but I haven't seen any lists that include him, any reason guys?
Hey, welcome back! It's back to the old crew, eh?
Good point about Bolas, I completely forgot about him. He's definitely a contender for my Souls list. He fills the Karn slot, but he's much much better.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
I'm not sure on if the post-rotation manabase will support splashes into white and black but hey, thats a long way off yet i'll build it now and alter it when need be...
but where to start... I like a draw-go style but M13 has gave literally nothing in that department lets hope they reduce the blue-nerfing in RTR, I will however give Rewind a bash before i dismiss it completely and go the counterless route...
Bolas is really well positioned atm with his -2 stealing a wurmcoil or titan would be sweet, anything out of slagstorm range really...
(Warning:Unnecessary gratuitous violence)
Lets get this archtype out of the dust and stomp some balls
EDIT: btw Jaden, your list appears to be 61 cards, is that intentional?
This is why I hate trying to build for post-rotation before the set is spoiled. For all we know they're reprinting shocklands or signets, or some other great fixing. Or, they might not. But aren't the Innistrad/M13 lands enough? None of my lists are running any Scars lands.
Rewind looks potentially awesome, but it depends on whether we need the counter turn 3 consistently, and how relevant the exile is. For the moment, we really want to counter cards like Swords, Restoration Angel and Birthing Pod, so I'd rather Dissipate (plus it's tons better against Lingering Souls), but that might change. If you wanted a third hard counter I'd definitely consider a 2/1 split.
And yes the 61 cards is intentional, until I work out what to cut. I have a bad habit of doing that.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
The pair of 2/1 splits is an experiment. I want to see how much of an impact instant-speed is on Pillar vs Galvanic, and the Doom Blade is a concession to Blade Splicer (though that may be incorrect with Zombies big in the meta).
I had other stuff like a Slagstorm, a Ghost Quarter, a Rewind, etc. in the board, but there doesn't seem to be much point, because the cards there already cover a broad base and I need more stuff to take out, not put in. Suggestions for those slots?
I'm a bit stumped as to how I should be sideboarding with this list though. The SB is very rough ATM, but mostly I don't know what to take out. How effective are counterspells against Pod? I presume you want Leaks but not Dissipates... do you cut Doom Blade/GffT? Do you want Images?
Basically, what would you cut against:
Zombies
Wolf Run
Pod
RG Aggro
your right on the manabase, its surprisingly forgiving, ive done some testing last night and this morning and its been fairly sturdy... I've got a list similar to your list in post #76 except i dropped the ratchet bomb, went -1 CS and +1 Bolas, -1 GftT and +1 Whipflare, I left the counterspells as they were for the moment
I'm a little bit skeptical about dropping Go for the Throat — it's amazing in the current metagame, and it's always been a favourite of mine (in the form of Doom Blade). Also, dropping Ratchet Bomb cuts your only out to noncreature permanents, although Whipflare is a much better sweeper. But other than that, those changes are fine.
Basically, Bolas is amazing, if i could fit a second one in (which i will find room for) i'd drop the ghost quarter (his +3=destroy troublesome land) and add an extra Island, Dissipate is cool vs Lingering you got that right but im not particulary scared by it and luckily BW tokens has dropped off the radar so we dont have to worry about the enchantments making them huge these days...
I was talking more about Solar Flare, but you're right: it's not huge ATM. But we'll have to see in a week or so, after we've had a few big standard tournaments and the metagame is clearer.
Pillar is awesome but with the reappearance of Blade Splicer everywhere i found myself vulnerable to the 3/3 golem, I may slide in 1 Tragic Slip or a Vapor Snag to deal with that pesky bugger
Slagstorm over the second Whipflare is probably a better bet IMO. That decklist is going to have difficulty getting the Tragic Slip turned on, and Vapor Snag sucks against anything but Blade Splicer. If you want a spot removal spell out of the board, Doom Blade is great, and Ancient Grudge works well too (especially as a deck with Splicer will have Pod and/or Swords).
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Bonfire of the damned is instant speed when Miracle'd. Which is what you're aiming to do with the amount of draw and manipulation in the deck. Even when it's played at sorcery speed late game for a 1 sided wipe is amazing. So much value to get a potential 3+ +dmg for 1. Even if it's a 1 for 1 +dmg is beneficial and serve's 2 purposes, position's you for board control while working to reduce your opponent's life to 0. It's $35 for good reason lol. Simply an all around amazing card (I run the G/R Aggro in our playtest group and it has single handedly brought me back to win the game). It's like lingering soul's, you have to see it played well and play well with it to understand how good it really is. Even non miracle'd at seven mana is a one sided slagstorm that go's both ways, to the face and their creature's.
Cavern of Souls, I can get on board with only using 1 mb. But having it is always going to be a good option. Facing delver and only having to worry about vapor snag is not nearly as bad as worrying about leak+snag. Assuming they keep the Snag in g2 even though they saw no threat's on board G1. Just depends on how many variation's of bomb's you run, at 2 it makes sense, but running 3+ it can be less than desirable.
I am on board with a counter package, but not as big as it used to be. Going down to a total counter package of 4-5 max is a better option for me personally. I have been thinking hard about going to white over black and a more tap out route as that is how I have been changing over all (switching to Esper Control, to Solar Flare, now to Esper Midrange). Having access to spot removal is a huge plus, but an unconditional wipe is more important, and weather we like it or not, 6 is just too much without acceleration.
Here is a list I am currently thinking about:
Edit: I was looking at this list and it made 0 sense to not include Sun Titan, 12 non land target's to bring back just scream's put me in the game!
-1 Mana Leak, -1 Bonfire | +2 Titan's
Sun Titan is such a house right now and being able to return things from the grave benefit's us even more (Oh hello Burning Vengeance, Snapcaster, etc....allowing even more Burning Vengeance Interactions)
Edit:
MB- 12 Non land Target's for Sun Titan
+SB up to 15 Non-land Target's for Sun Titan
MB- 12 Possible Burning Vengeance interaction's (without Sun Titan)
MB- With Sun Titan 21 possible Burning Vengeance Interaction's
+SB add another 10 possible interactions with Sun Titan.
Almost our entire deck becomes an engine for Burning Vengeance and Sun Titan. Pure advantage, using every non-land card in the deck two or more times seems good
Edit 2: -1 Blue Sun +1 Faithless. -1 Devil's Play +1 Oblivion Ring
Jaden, I had a list of Sideboarding options around here somewhere I will find it for you and post it up, although it will be based off an old list it will give you a start and direction.
that looks very 'Solar Flare'... strange list but you'll have to let us know how it fairs...
btw DoJ is poor in this format atm, Terminus is probably better... give it a go
ps. its been a looooong time since the discussions between alot of us a while back but faithless lootings was dismissed as it actually doesnt produce any card advantage and its sorcery speed... 4321, TT, DR, FA, USZ is old faithful even if you can use the flashback on Forbidden it does its job very well and at instant speed...
I was apart of the original discussion..... 4,3,2,1 fits in most cases, but it does not fit here. Reason being is yes Faithless is card disadvantage, which becomes advantage through Sun Titan and Snapcaster Mage if it doesn't have a flashback already. Faithless looting is used as card filtering, not a ca engine. I have always been an advocate of Desperate ravings over looting, even before the debate came up. It's used here as improving the quality of cards in our hand, much like Desolate light house. Deal's extremely well with mana flood, or short. I also dont believe in fitting black just for one or two forbidden alchemy's. I've been running them the past several month's (still today i use them) and they are clunky and slow, but necessary. However in a deck that does not rely on black i will not fit it in. At that point I might as well go with spot removal and lingering, but that stretches the mana base, which with the current selection of duals, isnt something i want to do (which is also why I dont have a splash green for ancient grudge, white can cover all of these aspects).
Terminus is good I will grant u that and it may go in as a one of in place of a doj, but doj is still something that needs to be used for aggro matches or this will fall over before it gets off the ground with no spot removal short of pillar's.
Edit:
Let's talk for a second on effieciency. Suppose you have gone through a very long game of magic and have drawn up all your draw spell's, here is what you have spent on drawing cards:
using the 4 Think Twice,3 Desperate Ravings,2 Forbidden Alchemy,1 Blue Sun's Zenith method:
You have seen 32 cards (BSZ was x=4, totaling 7 mana)
You have spent: 62 mana
Using 4 Think Twice, 4 Desperate Ravings, 1 Faithless Looting
You have seen 28 Cards
You have spent: 44 Mana
With that extra 18 I could be doing other things like casting burning vengeance, casting threats, removing threats, etc...doesn't seem worth it for the extra 4 card's, at least when I would rather advance my board state.
You undervalue the use of flashback cards, think twice isnt good because its 2 mana for one card and then 3 mana for one card, its good because its 2 cards for one card at instant speed, you can leave counter spell or bluff counterspells and EOT draw and burn, its not a game of mana preservation we intent to use every single mana every turn if possible... Also 'seeing' cards and what you actually have in hand are far from similar, faithless truely does help stop flood and screw but desperate ravings does that AND lets you keep a card you otherwise would have thrown away... The trick is to only play ravings when necessary, dont play it if youve got a hand full of goodies, use TT or USZ even for 1 or 2 is worth it, 3 or more is essentially enough card advantage to bury someone though
Hope I havent been too critical I hope it makes sense too, just a different way of looking at it
I don't undervalue any of them. I am fully aware of desperate raving's and also include 4 of :), I also know how Think Twice works lol. I do use that same rule when it comes to DR, but I also have the option to cast desperate without restriction and fear of losing a good card because I will simply use it at some point in the game as there are only 2-5 card's I can not get back (Titan's, Sphinx, and Jace). As I said the 4,3,2,1 is good in certain version's, this one however, is not the case. Alchemy and Blue Sun are both good cards, but also very slow. Not to mention their requirement's, B on Alchemy, which I do not want to strain the mana base going to 4 color and UUU can sometimes be hard to hit until it's too late. Being in white will not allow many turn's of unused mana. In most cases yes, you're correct, what you see and what you have in hand are two totally different things. when you bring Sun Titan and Snapcaster Mage both into consideration, however, there is not much of a difference. The Graveyard is an extension of my hand, and through these two I can access 93% of whatever go's there.
And no it's not too critical, I don't mind debating and other's opinions, everyone has them.
I am always open to seeing how certain card play, I have used every one of these form's of draw, I prefer one's that are more efficient and I don't have to spend key turn's durdling and playing around high casting costs.
I'm running Talrand to great success in my tainted vengeance build.
He gives me instant speed blockers and gives me a win condition by giving me free 2/2 flyers.
Anyone else trying him out? With him and with feeling of dread, I've been doing a pretty good job of shutting down agro decks.
All that said, I'm getting wrecked by Boros humans. I just don't know how to deal with a deck that WILL swing for lethal by turn 4, assuming no disruption.
Then again, the guy has one 2 strait FNMs and 4 of the last 5 with the deck, so this isn't just my problem...
Whats the plan for a 4 colour mana base, Im thinking ahead and I think that BV needs Lingering souls and access to Terminus post rotation... to do this im going to have to seriously overhaul the mana base and give me access to all, keeping black for late game and maybe 2 GftT and 2 Bolas + Forbidden flashback if needed, I'm considering the 1 of Shimmering Grotto again but im unsure...
I figure I need access to t2 U and/or R for TT and DR
t3 access to W for Lingering Souls
t4 access to B for flashback
I need alot of white sources so i can tap for TT eot and have W for Terminus miricle a decent percentage of the time
It looks nice on paper but proper testing will tell I guess... 4 mb Terminus may change but atm it looks nice, increased chance of top decking it EOT
Thoughts?
EDIT: Infact Black looks a little on the skimpy side in the manabase... I'll do some pre-lim testing and feedback soon
Geez, it's 3 months away! The mana is awful without Sphere of the Suns, so just wait until RtR is spoiled. I don't know why everyone always jumps so far ahead! We have no idea what cards we're going to get. For all we know, we're getting Shocklands and Signets! Then, what's the use in building a manabase now?
Also, Pillar is probably better than Incinerate/Geistflame, and I'd consider playing a single Snapcaster in the Geistflame slot if you want the flashback.
I'm running Talrand to great success in my tainted vengeance build.
He gives me instant speed blockers and gives me a win condition by giving me free 2/2 flyers.
Anyone else trying him out? With him and with feeling of dread, I've been doing a pretty good job of shutting down agro decks.
All that said, I'm getting wrecked by Boros humans. I just don't know how to deal with a deck that WILL swing for lethal by turn 4, assuming no disruption.
Then again, the guy has one 2 strait FNMs and 4 of the last 5 with the deck, so this isn't just my problem...
Can you post your list? My problem with the card is that it's a four mana 2/2 that doesn't impact the board immediately. In a deck that plays very few creatures (Lingering doesn't count because it produces four bodies from a single card), it's probably going to get killed almost immediately. That said, how long does it tend to live for you? If it lasts more than a turn or two, it could be very powerful.
Sweepers are your best bet against super-quick aggro. As Jt_pooface said, a few more Whipflare and Slagstorm will go a long way to helping the matchup. Postboard you can bring in Timely Reinforcements. But if you're playing 4 Lingering Souls, some Feeling of Dread, and 5+ sweepers MD, I'm a little surprised you have so much trouble against the deck...
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
And I have to argue this one, the instant speed seems very relevant atm with alot of decks utilizing EOT plays ala restoration Angel, incinerate kills blade splicer tokens pluscan be used for pw killing, an area I feel weak/vulnerable too...
Giestflame I could lose but incinerate is earning its keep for me, I may try 2 incinerate and 1 pillar and see how it fairs
Hmm, that's a good point. The reason I say Pillar is because you really want it for the exile effect, against Strangleroot and Zombies. But you're right, the instant speed is very relevant, and I always used to find myself wishing Pillar was an instant.
But between O-ring, counters, BV and Lingering Souls, don't you have your bases covered for walkers enough already?
I do feel like sphere or something such as pristine talisman could have a slot or 2 and replace wurmcoil with dragskol reaver for a test... It would offer a decent late game option that can bury someone in card advantage and gains life too so can stabilize in the same way... Worth thinking about?
Sphere NEEDS to be in the four-colour version. Absolute must. The mana isn't stable enough without it, and it replaces Mana Leak as a turn-two play. Pristine Talisman ramps, but it doesn't fix your mana, and it's a three-drop. The 1 life certainly adds up, but it's not hugely relevant except against aggro decks that burn out after turn 5 (like Boros/RDW or whatever).
I had a discussion with my friend a decent player who is playing solar flare atm who thinks that talrand will see play but I disagree, 4 mana for a 2/2 with no immediate effect just isnt good enough, he'll eat the handful of removal they have nothing else to hit... Unless you play him late game and follow up with instant, instant, instant then he seems poor... Imo
Agreed. I wish it triggered when it entered.
But then again, it'd be Huntmaster level if it did. Wishful thinking.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Just a thought, I didn't see anybody mention this (although I did skim and may have missed something). Has anyone considered Talrand in this deck? It seems like it would have good synergy and would add a bit of diversity to the deck which would make it more difficult to handle. I havent explored this idea thoroughly yet but I'm going to start trying to toss a few into a list w/ BV and see what happens. I'd love know if anyone has tried this or what you think!
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I am however testing other creatures in that 1 of spot, anything with value of ETB or ltb although wurmcoil obviously stabalises like a boss and is hard to rid the board totally of gim with only 1 card ie to a oid card disadvantaging themselves, I figured if I could sqeeze in some talismans then reaver would have value but im abandoning that idea, a bit clunky
No problem lol, I figured it was something haha.
Wurmcoil really is nice as most removal in the format will make your opponent 2 for 1 him. Keep counter mana up for images though
I've been wanting to take a break from Zombies, and due to wanting to play Nicol Bolas, decided BV was the way to go.
I'm unsure how I feel about the counterspells. In control match ups, I feel they are necessary, but Cavern being a thing makes them worth less.
I really like Pillar of Flame, it gets rid of Doomed Traveler and Strangleroot Geist and Gravecrawler and Messenger no problem, and can take out Mirran Crusader. I haven't come across a situation where I would prefer it to be instant, but I'm sure once I test more, I'll come to a better conclusion.
I decided on Dismember as my spot removal of choice, since people have been running Zombies more in my meta, as well as Blade Splicers. Titans are almost missing from my meta, so I feel as though Dismember is in a good spot. I am considering running Murder in the slot, but I am unsure how I feel about the mandatory BB cost.
I'm currently testing out how the fastlands work over the check lands, since I feel as though the first 3 turns are more crucial for me to have mana untapped for sweepers/removal/counters over having more late game craziness. I like the set up so far, but this upcoming FNM should provide me with better results.
I haven't really settled on a sideboard yet. I find myself wanting to fit another Nicol Bolas in, as well as Griselbrand. I do know I want more sweepers in the board for when I need to cut counterspells, and I want more threats for when sweepers aren't as good. I think I might cut the Ancient Grudges for Smelts, since I don't have any way of getting the G for flashing it back.
For those of you running W and Sun Titan, has anyone considered Hellion Crucible as a 1 of threat? A 4/4 haste can help end games quicker, and can the land can come back with Sun Titan. If I still had Clifftop Retreat, I would test it out, but I think it could be worth running.
Just a thought, I didn't see anybody mention this (although I did skim and may have missed something). Has anyone considered Talrand in this deck? It seems like it would have good synergy and would add a bit of diversity to the deck which would make it more difficult to handle. I havent explored this idea thoroughly yet but I'm going to start trying to toss a few into a list w/ BV and see what happens. I'd love know if anyone has tried this or what you think!
Mate, I talked about it literally in the post above you...
I play counterless atm, I feel with cavern of souls in the format id rather not focus on countering
Im tempted to drop creatures all together and play more Planeswalkers, maybe 2 bolas and a Karn as both can impact the board and win games, bolas is frickin ridiculous though maybe a third wouldnt be a bad idea, he is just amazing at stabilizing and winning plus deals with anything... Anything!!! Lol
The only thing is that they are both very slow. I can understand wanting to play more copies of him, but I don't think running more than two 7/8 drops is a great idea. If you want more walkers/creatures, try out Gideon and Tamiyo. Tamiyo's amazing if you run Lingering Souls/Feeling of Dread to protect her, and you get so much more value out of your sweepers.
I've been wanting to take a break from Zombies, and due to wanting to play Nicol Bolas, decided BV was the way to go.
I'm unsure how I feel about the counterspells. In control match ups, I feel they are necessary, but Cavern being a thing makes them worth less.
I like your maindeck, but 4 sweepers seems one too few to me. Perhaps swap a spot removal spell for a second Whipflare/BSZ? I personally like a miser's copy of Life's Finale — it can sweep stuff with pro-red (SoWaP mainly) or 4+ toughness, and pinching their most valuable creature is a nice perk.
I really like Pillar of Flame, it gets rid of Doomed Traveler and Strangleroot Geist and Gravecrawler and Messenger no problem, and can take out Mirran Crusader. I haven't come across a situation where I would prefer it to be instant, but I'm sure once I test more, I'll come to a better conclusion.
I decided on Dismember as my spot removal of choice, since people have been running Zombies more in my meta, as well as Blade Splicers. Titans are almost missing from my meta, so I feel as though Dismember is in a good spot. I am considering running Murder in the slot, but I am unsure how I feel about the mandatory BB cost.
I'm currently testing out how the fastlands work over the check lands, since I feel as though the first 3 turns are more crucial for me to have mana untapped for sweepers/removal/counters over having more late game craziness. I like the set up so far, but this upcoming FNM should provide me with better results.
Pillar of Flame is certainly very strong right now. Usually where you'd want it to be instant-speed is with Snapcaster Mage — if you mainphase it, Snapcaster can't surprise-block.
Dismember is fine if you don't expect to run into Titans, but Murder is just bad. There is (almost) zero reason to play it over Doom Blade or Go for the Throat until rotation.
Whoa, you've gone from one extreme to the other! 8 Scars lands is simply too many. I would never run more than 6, and I'd normally advise 4 or less. The M13 duals should be fine! In Grixis, you almost never have lands enter tapped.
I haven't really settled on a sideboard yet. I find myself wanting to fit another Nicol Bolas in, as well as Griselbrand. I do know I want more sweepers in the board for when I need to cut counterspells, and I want more threats for when sweepers aren't as good. I think I might cut the Ancient Grudges for Smelts, since I don't have any way of getting the G for flashing it back.
Why Griselbrand? The BBBB seems very hard to hit.
An option for Ancient Grudge is to run a split with Smelt, and/or play a Shimmering Grotto or two in the main plus two green duals (I tend to run Copperline Gorge and Hinterland Harbour, because the Gorge replaces a Mountain and you're more likely to have an Island than any other land).
If you want more threats, try Consecrated Sphinx or Wurmcoil Engine. Because it's postboard, they hopefully would have brought out spot removal, so Sphinx will be fairly safe (and if not, you still gain VCA because you'll only have 1-2 Sphinxes, and until you draw one their removal is a dead card).
For those of you running W and Sun Titan, has anyone considered Hellion Crucible as a 1 of threat? A 4/4 haste can help end games quicker, and can the land can come back with Sun Titan. If I still had Clifftop Retreat, I would test it out, but I think it could be worth running.
Unless you're playing straight UR, the deck doesn't have much room for colourless lands. It's definitely a consideration, but I think Ghost Quarter or Desolate Lighthouse are going to be better choices for your one or two colourless land slots. If you're running more than 3 colours, don't play any 'grey lands' at all — it's simply not worth the mana instability. But if you think your list can support it, by all means play it. It's certainly a nice lategame value land.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
I have made a few change's and will be testing this throughout the week. haven't been playing this as much as of late, but hopefully I can get some testing done at FNM we will see.
3 Snapcaster mage
1 Consecrated Sphinx
Enchantment's (4)
4 Burning Vengeance
Instant's (17)
4 Think Twice
4 Desperate Ravings
1 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Mana Leak
1 Dissipate
2 Go for the Throat
1 Doom Blade
1 Tribute to Hunger
Sorcery's (11
3 Pillar of Flame
2 Devil's Play
3 Whipflare
1 Black Sun's Zenith
Land's (24)
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Dragonskull Summit
4 Sulfur Fall's
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Evolving Wilds
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Swamp
2 Island
3 Mountain
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Phantasmal Image
1 Slagstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 negate
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Crush
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Despise
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But, in this deck it would be a sideboard card for me. I truly enjoy playing creatureless and creating dead cards in my opponet's deck. By running something like 1-4 creatures, you are just drawing a bulls-eye on Mage/Sphinx/Image or whatever you want to run maindeck.
So, if I'm siding it, the question becomes "What matchup should I bring it in against?"
I found during testing that it wasn't enough to beat Wolf Run. I'd Image a Thrunn, but lose to everything else, especially 6 toughness Titans. The Wolf Run match was sooo terrible I just punt it. So, I really don't want Image here.
It's good vs. stuff like Frites, but then again so is Surgical Extraction. I also use Surgical Extraction in the control mirror. So, really for me Image really became a casuality of "not enough sideboard room" and the "auto-lose" matchups.
Check out my expected lands table at:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Airj6A6lYAz_dG05T2JETnVTak1xQ0tqOHNSdEJLWVE&hl=en_US#gid=0
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lingering Souls
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Karn Liberated
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Think Twice
3 Desperate Ravings
2 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Day of Judgment
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Go for the Throat
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Sphere of the Suns
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Clifftop Retreat
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Isolated Chapel
3 Evolving Wilds
3 Island
3 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Swamp
A few quick points:
Yes, the list is counterless. Lingering Souls synergises with planeswalkers and wants Sphere of the Suns, all of which point towards a more tap-out oriented approach. I'm still undecided as to if I want to play a few Dissipates in the main, but some things would have to change.
I'm only playing one Snapcaster because there aren't enough good targets, and he functions best with counterspells. I'm well aware he can flashback a sweeper, but the deck doesn't need the extra flashback thanks to Lingering Souls and he's not been fantastic when I do draw him. I'm actually considering playing a Phantasmal Image in the slot, because the deck needs more outs to Geist of Saint Traft, particularly with a sword attached.
I'm on the fence about Karn vs Gideon. Karn kills Swords and Titans, which is a big plus in his favour, but he can be really slooooooow. Gideon is a more reliable win condition (even if he only hits once or twice, it's a fair chunk of damage), he's much better defensively, and can situationally kill Titans too.
The sideboard would include a few copies of Dissipate, Timely Reinforcements, Phantasmal Image, a split of Revoke/O-ring/Ancient Grudge, some sweepers, and extra removal.
Thoughts guys?
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Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
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Your list seems solid, however i highly recommend you to use Gideon Jura, he can be a game winner against aggro and he's a great finisher.
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1 Phantasmal Image
4 Lingering Souls
2 Gideon Jura
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Devil's Play
3 Desperate Ravings
4 Think Twice
2 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Slagstorm
2 Day of Judgment
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Go for the Throat
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Glacial Fortress
3 Clifftop Retreat
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Shimmering Grotto
3 Evolving Wilds
3 Island
3 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Timely Reinforcements
3 Dissipate
2 Phantasmal Image
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Pillar of Flame
1 Whipflare
1 Go for the Throat
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Revoke Existence
1 Oblivion Ring
After some thought, I decided to drop Snapcaster. It's awesome when you have 6 counterspells and 4+ removal spells, but this deck only has 4 non-sweeper targets and it was simply a let-down every time I drew it. The 2/1 body doesn't do a whole lot more than chump-block in such an aggressive meta, and the flashback isn't needed like in a non-Lingering version.
I can't decide what to do with my bomb suite. My options are Tamiyo, Gideon, Entreat, Consecrated Sphinx, Wurmcoil, Devil's Play, and Elesh Norn.
Tamiyo seems good on paper, and she can tap down sworded creatures and Titans, but her ultimate isn't that fantastic and if they have two creatures they can just move the sword. Entreat, again, seems great on paper, as it just wins games out of nowhere and is great on both offence and defence, but on the other hand it cops splash hate from Ratchet Bomb, and is just bad against Vapor Snag unless X>3.
Consecrated Sphinx simply wins if you untap with it, is practically impossible for RG decks to kill, and is a nice beefy blocker when you need it — great against swords. I've always been a big fan of a single copy, and given the lack of Doom Blade-esque cards in the meta, I'm going to try out one in the main. Devil's Play is a staple that doubles as a removal spell in a pinch, is great going into the lategame, and is a fantastic backup win-con.
Elesh Norn and Wurmcoil just seem too slow right now, but I might be wrong. Elesh isn't anywhere near as good now that Blade Splicer and Restoration Angel live through it, and Wurmcoil has always sucked vs Snag. That said, either has the power to turn a game around, and Elesh is great with Lingering, so watch this space.
The whole point of Lingering Souls is that your opponents removal is ineffective against it... try Doom Blading one of my four Spirit tokens. Yeah, nice zero-for-one.
The reason your Wolf Run matchup is bad is because you're playing zero cards that deal with resolved threats. You need cards like Oblivion Ring, Go for the Throat and Day of Judgment if you want to beat Titans. And if you're going to play UR, at least take full advantage of it and play Ghost Quarters! And why aren't you boarding Flashfreezes if it's a problem matchup?
You should be having absolutely zero mana problems... even my FOUR colour version can support Dissipate mana. Considering UR has so few ways to deal with anything that hits the board, I'd definitely play the third main.
I also have a big problem with your flashback suite. 12 draw spells is too many, and especially playing just Grottos, running 4 Alchemy is a bad idea. I know you see it as the key to the deck, but it's actually not that good — it's just too expensive. You don't want to see more than one or two in a game, and so I really wouldn't run the set. I'd also strongly suggest trying out one or two USZ. It's amazing in the lategame and flat-out wins if you get an opening on their endstep.
Running four Geistflame and four Burning Oil is just bad. The cards on their own simply don't do enough. I understand you want to cram a ton of flashback in there for value, but you're better off playing cards that have more raw power on their own. Playing a number of copies of both is respectable, but not four of each. Your deck is far too reliant on Burning Vengeance itself, and without it the deck becomes a pile of subpar cards.
BTW, you don't have to use card tags within deck tags, it does it for you.
Why Bonfire? In a deck playing next to no creatures, half the point of the card — being a one-sided sweeper — is completely lost. I realise that it's a single red and hits the opponent, but it's heavily overcosted for its effect in a control deck, and its scaleability is hampered by its obscene hardcast cost. More BSZs or Slagstorm just seem like a much, much better options.
Whipflare over Slagstorm? I can see your colour concerns for the same reason as Bonfire and I realise it's more of a personal preference, but I'd still consider playing a split all the same, especially as Bonfire doesn't very effectively deal with x/3s unless you miracle it.
Why Cavern in the Board? Isn't it a waste of a sideboard slot? I'd rather play an extra Surgical or Negate, as they end up doing similar things, but Cavern is less reliably generating virtual CA as you need to land one of your creature when they would have otherwise successfully countered it (and have named the correct type, another strike against it IMO with a 2/1 split of bombs).
You only have one card in the entire 75 that reliably deals with a resolved Sword or Birthing Pod, and that seems like asking for trouble to me. Why not add a second Crush, or even splash for Ancient Grudge? I've always found that a resolved Pod or Sword presents a huge problem for the deck and while it's beatable, it certainly makes it difficult without a sweeper or two lying around.
It's been tried before, in a number of different shells, but it's not a BV deck — it's a Reforge/Past in Flames deck that happens to play BV. Besides, I believe Tokens + Rituals + Burn at the Stake/Chancellor of the Forge ended up being better, IIRC.
Besides, this thread is dedicated to the BV control deck; I think the title is a little misleading.
It's not a constant threat, because it's not a threat at all. It's not like Desperate Ravings, because it's not card advantage and doesn't have flashback. It's a totally different card altogether.
The +1 is rather pointless. You get to draw a card at random, and then discard a card at random. All you're doing is giving yourself the chance to completely screw up your hand. Sure you could discard a Think Twice or Ravings, but do you really want to do that? You could have just paid the same mana as Tibalt cost in the first place and got it in the yard, and yielded essentially the same effect, minus the card disadvantage.
The -4 is hardly a threat against anything but UB control — even Solar Flare plays Lingering Souls to kill Tibalt before it's relevant. And even if you get it off for, say, 6 damage (if you're lucky) — then what? You've essentially played a card that reads "Suspend 4:RR. Flip a coin. If you win deal 6 damage to an opponent."
Likewise, the -6 isn't much of a threat, because if you're doing your job properly they shouldn't have anything worth grabbing. If the Tibalt is still miraculously alive (and your hand hasn't been completely butchered by 4+ turns of random discard), then it probably means they have nothing worth stealing.
Good point. Forgot about losing Flashback spells permanently.
Yeah, another friend on Facebook took the same viewpoint, so I'm making the switch.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
Also, what about Inferno Titan? I've heard of some variants using him, and the idea of getting an arc lightning when he lands/swings seems pretty good.
I really like Wurmcoil, but I just don't know whether he's worth it or not. I'll try him out again over the Consecrated Sphinx and see how he goes.
Inferno Titan is also an option, but much like Frost or Sun Titan, he's not quite as good as the others. He certainly can be powerful, however, so if you want to run him go ahead.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
It is a personal preference but I think whipflare will be a better option more time's then not. I don't like straining a mana base to require a double RR UU BB etc. Overall it's too greedy and you will not reliably hit that 100% of the time in any given 3 color deck on turn 3.
Cavern of souls is in there for the Consecrated Sphinx and Wurmcoil Engine. We are seeing a wave of counter's come back and on that turn six, I want to reliably hit that titan. I will be in a position where I need to recover some life or draw an answer. And it's very easy for a U player to hold Mana Leak mana open. 2 cavern of souls does not hurt the mana base as it only has 3 colorless sources (with cavern of souls included). I am even inclined to add in a desolate lighthouse or two for the card filtering. I would do this over faithless looting because it's instant speed, CA is not lost, and it's 1 card vs 2 on faithless.
I am really just waiting on smelt to be legal, then I will devote more slot's to artifact removal. It is never hard to in response burn the creature being equipped, especially a mana dork. I will make them pay whenever possible to try and equip, this will slow them down and really gives me a tempo advantage. Ancient grudge though is not hard to splash in. In fact I played the other day and every time i saw my singleton forest, it got the random discard via desperate ravings. I had to just lol about it as I found it hilarious.
I like the single Phantasmal Image MB, really helps deal with Geist of saint traft, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, thrun, the last troll, etc and copies an early flipped delver/strangleroot geist.
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**EDITED VERSION AS OF 17/7/12**
1 Devil's Play
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
4 Think Twice
3 Desperate Ravings
2 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Dissipate
1 Whipflare
3 Slagstorm
1 Life's Finale
3 Pillar of Flame
3 Go for the Throat
3 Dragonskull Summit
3 Drowned Catacomb
3 Evolving Wilds
1 Ghost Quarter
5 Island
4 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Devil's Play
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Think Twice
3 Desperate Ravings
2 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Dissipate
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Whipflare
2 Slagstorm
1 Life's Finale
3 Pillar of Flame
3 Go for the Throat
3 Dragonskull Summit
3 Drowned Catacomb
3 Evolving Wilds
1 Ghost Quarter
5 Island
4 Mountain
2 Swamp
EDIT: Nicol Bolas over Consecrated Sphinx maybe?
EDIT 2: And I forgot about Augur of Bolas! Although it encourages tapping out on turn 2, so Leak becomes less effective. It requires a bit of an overhaul, so I'll let this list stand as an Augur-less option.
It would be a great play if it were legal.
Bonfire of the Damned
If Bonfire was an instant then I'd agree with its inclusion 100%. My problem is that it's inferior to Slagstorm or BSZ in almost every case, and it's not uncommon to miracle it on their turn without enough mana open, hampering its usefulness. My main point, I suppose, is that it costs a whopping seven mana to be a Slagstorm. You don't want your sweeper to only be useful for one or two damage. That's simply inefficient.
Fair enough.
What I meant was that it's taking up a sideboard slot for seemingly little reason.
Also, when you play Cavern you have to name a creature type at the time you play it. If you don't have your titan in hand, you'll have to pick one, and it's going to be awkward if you draw the other.
Fair enough.
Sure! I can put up a sideboard guide for my list later, and we can go from there.
Hey, welcome back! It's back to the old crew, eh?
Good point about Bolas, I completely forgot about him. He's definitely a contender for my Souls list. He fills the Karn slot, but he's much much better.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
This is why I hate trying to build for post-rotation before the set is spoiled. For all we know they're reprinting shocklands or signets, or some other great fixing. Or, they might not. But aren't the Innistrad/M13 lands enough? None of my lists are running any Scars lands.
Rewind looks potentially awesome, but it depends on whether we need the counter turn 3 consistently, and how relevant the exile is. For the moment, we really want to counter cards like Swords, Restoration Angel and Birthing Pod, so I'd rather Dissipate (plus it's tons better against Lingering Souls), but that might change. If you wanted a third hard counter I'd definitely consider a 2/1 split.
And yes the 61 cards is intentional, until I work out what to cut. I have a bad habit of doing that.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Nicol Bolas
1 Devil's Play
4 Think Twice
3 Desperate Ravings
2 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
3 Mana Leak
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Dissipate
1 Whipflare
3 Slagstorm
1 Life's Finale
1 Galvanic Blast
2 Go for the Throat
1 Doom Blade
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Dragonskull Summit
3 Drowned Catacomb
3 Evolving Wilds
1 Shimmering Grotto
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Hinterland Harbor
4 Island
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Nicol Bolas
1 Mana Leak
1 Dissipate
1 Whipflare
The pair of 2/1 splits is an experiment. I want to see how much of an impact instant-speed is on Pillar vs Galvanic, and the Doom Blade is a concession to Blade Splicer (though that may be incorrect with Zombies big in the meta).
I had other stuff like a Slagstorm, a Ghost Quarter, a Rewind, etc. in the board, but there doesn't seem to be much point, because the cards there already cover a broad base and I need more stuff to take out, not put in. Suggestions for those slots?
I'm a bit stumped as to how I should be sideboarding with this list though. The SB is very rough ATM, but mostly I don't know what to take out. How effective are counterspells against Pod? I presume you want Leaks but not Dissipates... do you cut Doom Blade/GffT? Do you want Images?
Basically, what would you cut against:
Zombies
Wolf Run
Pod
RG Aggro
I'm fine with Delver and Solar Flare.
I'm a little bit skeptical about dropping Go for the Throat — it's amazing in the current metagame, and it's always been a favourite of mine (in the form of Doom Blade). Also, dropping Ratchet Bomb cuts your only out to noncreature permanents, although Whipflare is a much better sweeper. But other than that, those changes are fine.
I was talking more about Solar Flare, but you're right: it's not huge ATM. But we'll have to see in a week or so, after we've had a few big standard tournaments and the metagame is clearer.
Haha, yep. 4/3/2/1 — old faithful. Such beautiful numbers.
Slagstorm over the second Whipflare is probably a better bet IMO. That decklist is going to have difficulty getting the Tragic Slip turned on, and Vapor Snag sucks against anything but Blade Splicer. If you want a spot removal spell out of the board, Doom Blade is great, and Ancient Grudge works well too (especially as a deck with Splicer will have Pod and/or Swords).
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
Cavern of Souls, I can get on board with only using 1 mb. But having it is always going to be a good option. Facing delver and only having to worry about vapor snag is not nearly as bad as worrying about leak+snag. Assuming they keep the Snag in g2 even though they saw no threat's on board G1. Just depends on how many variation's of bomb's you run, at 2 it makes sense, but running 3+ it can be less than desirable.
I am on board with a counter package, but not as big as it used to be. Going down to a total counter package of 4-5 max is a better option for me personally. I have been thinking hard about going to white over black and a more tap out route as that is how I have been changing over all (switching to Esper Control, to Solar Flare, now to Esper Midrange). Having access to spot removal is a huge plus, but an unconditional wipe is more important, and weather we like it or not, 6 is just too much without acceleration.
Here is a list I am currently thinking about:
Edit: I was looking at this list and it made 0 sense to not include Sun Titan, 12 non land target's to bring back just scream's put me in the game!
-1 Mana Leak, -1 Bonfire | +2 Titan's
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Sun Titan
Artifact (1)
1 Ratchet Bomb
Enchantment's (6)
4 Burning Vengeance
2 Oblivion Ring
Instant's (11)
4 Think Twice
4 Desperate Ravings
2 Mana Leak
1 Dissipate
Sorcery's (10)
1 Faithless Looting
3 Day of Judgment
2 Whipflare
1 Devil's Play
3 Pillar of Flame
4 Seachrome Coast
2 Glacial Fortress
3 Clifftop Retreat
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Evolving Wilds
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Island
2 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Sun Titan
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Negate
1 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Slagstorm
1 Divine Offering
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Day of Judgment
2 Surgical Extraction
Sun Titan is such a house right now and being able to return things from the grave benefit's us even more (Oh hello Burning Vengeance, Snapcaster, etc....allowing even more Burning Vengeance Interactions)
Edit:
MB- 12 Non land Target's for Sun Titan
+SB up to 15 Non-land Target's for Sun Titan
MB- 12 Possible Burning Vengeance interaction's (without Sun Titan)
MB- With Sun Titan 21 possible Burning Vengeance Interaction's
+SB add another 10 possible interactions with Sun Titan.
Almost our entire deck becomes an engine for Burning Vengeance and Sun Titan. Pure advantage, using every non-land card in the deck two or more times seems good
Edit 2: -1 Blue Sun +1 Faithless. -1 Devil's Play +1 Oblivion Ring
Jaden, I had a list of Sideboarding options around here somewhere I will find it for you and post it up, although it will be based off an old list it will give you a start and direction.
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I was apart of the original discussion..... 4,3,2,1 fits in most cases, but it does not fit here. Reason being is yes Faithless is card disadvantage, which becomes advantage through Sun Titan and Snapcaster Mage if it doesn't have a flashback already. Faithless looting is used as card filtering, not a ca engine. I have always been an advocate of Desperate ravings over looting, even before the debate came up. It's used here as improving the quality of cards in our hand, much like Desolate light house. Deal's extremely well with mana flood, or short. I also dont believe in fitting black just for one or two forbidden alchemy's. I've been running them the past several month's (still today i use them) and they are clunky and slow, but necessary. However in a deck that does not rely on black i will not fit it in. At that point I might as well go with spot removal and lingering, but that stretches the mana base, which with the current selection of duals, isnt something i want to do (which is also why I dont have a splash green for ancient grudge, white can cover all of these aspects).
Terminus is good I will grant u that and it may go in as a one of in place of a doj, but doj is still something that needs to be used for aggro matches or this will fall over before it gets off the ground with no spot removal short of pillar's.
Edit:
Let's talk for a second on effieciency. Suppose you have gone through a very long game of magic and have drawn up all your draw spell's, here is what you have spent on drawing cards:
using the 4 Think Twice,3 Desperate Ravings,2 Forbidden Alchemy,1 Blue Sun's Zenith method:
You have seen 32 cards (BSZ was x=4, totaling 7 mana)
You have spent: 62 mana
Using 4 Think Twice, 4 Desperate Ravings, 1 Faithless Looting
You have seen 28 Cards
You have spent: 44 Mana
With that extra 18 I could be doing other things like casting burning vengeance, casting threats, removing threats, etc...doesn't seem worth it for the extra 4 card's, at least when I would rather advance my board state.
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I don't undervalue any of them. I am fully aware of desperate raving's and also include 4 of :), I also know how Think Twice works lol. I do use that same rule when it comes to DR, but I also have the option to cast desperate without restriction and fear of losing a good card because I will simply use it at some point in the game as there are only 2-5 card's I can not get back (Titan's, Sphinx, and Jace). As I said the 4,3,2,1 is good in certain version's, this one however, is not the case. Alchemy and Blue Sun are both good cards, but also very slow. Not to mention their requirement's, B on Alchemy, which I do not want to strain the mana base going to 4 color and UUU can sometimes be hard to hit until it's too late. Being in white will not allow many turn's of unused mana. In most cases yes, you're correct, what you see and what you have in hand are two totally different things. when you bring Sun Titan and Snapcaster Mage both into consideration, however, there is not much of a difference. The Graveyard is an extension of my hand, and through these two I can access 93% of whatever go's there.
And no it's not too critical, I don't mind debating and other's opinions, everyone has them.
I am always open to seeing how certain card play, I have used every one of these form's of draw, I prefer one's that are more efficient and I don't have to spend key turn's durdling and playing around high casting costs.
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He gives me instant speed blockers and gives me a win condition by giving me free 2/2 flyers.
Anyone else trying him out? With him and with feeling of dread, I've been doing a pretty good job of shutting down agro decks.
All that said, I'm getting wrecked by Boros humans. I just don't know how to deal with a deck that WILL swing for lethal by turn 4, assuming no disruption.
Then again, the guy has one 2 strait FNMs and 4 of the last 5 with the deck, so this isn't just my problem...
Geez, it's 3 months away! The mana is awful without Sphere of the Suns, so just wait until RtR is spoiled. I don't know why everyone always jumps so far ahead! We have no idea what cards we're going to get. For all we know, we're getting Shocklands and Signets! Then, what's the use in building a manabase now?
Also, Pillar is probably better than Incinerate/Geistflame, and I'd consider playing a single Snapcaster in the Geistflame slot if you want the flashback.
Can you post your list? My problem with the card is that it's a four mana 2/2 that doesn't impact the board immediately. In a deck that plays very few creatures (Lingering doesn't count because it produces four bodies from a single card), it's probably going to get killed almost immediately. That said, how long does it tend to live for you? If it lasts more than a turn or two, it could be very powerful.
Sweepers are your best bet against super-quick aggro. As Jt_pooface said, a few more Whipflare and Slagstorm will go a long way to helping the matchup. Postboard you can bring in Timely Reinforcements. But if you're playing 4 Lingering Souls, some Feeling of Dread, and 5+ sweepers MD, I'm a little surprised you have so much trouble against the deck...
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
Hmm, that's a good point. The reason I say Pillar is because you really want it for the exile effect, against Strangleroot and Zombies. But you're right, the instant speed is very relevant, and I always used to find myself wishing Pillar was an instant.
But between O-ring, counters, BV and Lingering Souls, don't you have your bases covered for walkers enough already?
Sphere NEEDS to be in the four-colour version. Absolute must. The mana isn't stable enough without it, and it replaces Mana Leak as a turn-two play. Pristine Talisman ramps, but it doesn't fix your mana, and it's a three-drop. The 1 life certainly adds up, but it's not hugely relevant except against aggro decks that burn out after turn 5 (like Boros/RDW or whatever).
Agreed. I wish it triggered when it entered.
But then again, it'd be Huntmaster level if it did. Wishful thinking.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane for this sig
Now Playing:
EDH:
Derevi, Enchantress
5C Planeswalkers (Child of Alara)
Sharuum
Narset, Enlightened Master
Ezuri Elves
The Mimeoplasm
What are you giving Drogskol Reaver Hexproof with?
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No problem lol, I figured it was something haha.
Wurmcoil really is nice as most removal in the format will make your opponent 2 for 1 him. Keep counter mana up for images though
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4x Darkslick Shores
2x Dragonskull Summit
2x Evolving Wilds
5x Island
2x Mountain
4x Sulfur Falls
2x Swamp
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Dissipate
3x Mana Leak
1x Devil's Play
1x Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
3x Desperate Ravings
2x Forbidden Alchemy
4x Think Twice
3x Dismember
3x Pillar of Flame
3x Slagstorm
1x Whipflare
3x Ancient Grudge
2x Dissipate
1x Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
2x Black Sun's Zenith
1x Slagstorm
2x Whipflare
2x Phantasmal Image
2x Griselbrand
I've been wanting to take a break from Zombies, and due to wanting to play Nicol Bolas, decided BV was the way to go.
I'm unsure how I feel about the counterspells. In control match ups, I feel they are necessary, but Cavern being a thing makes them worth less.
I really like Pillar of Flame, it gets rid of Doomed Traveler and Strangleroot Geist and Gravecrawler and Messenger no problem, and can take out Mirran Crusader. I haven't come across a situation where I would prefer it to be instant, but I'm sure once I test more, I'll come to a better conclusion.
I decided on Dismember as my spot removal of choice, since people have been running Zombies more in my meta, as well as Blade Splicers. Titans are almost missing from my meta, so I feel as though Dismember is in a good spot. I am considering running Murder in the slot, but I am unsure how I feel about the mandatory BB cost.
I'm currently testing out how the fastlands work over the check lands, since I feel as though the first 3 turns are more crucial for me to have mana untapped for sweepers/removal/counters over having more late game craziness. I like the set up so far, but this upcoming FNM should provide me with better results.
I haven't really settled on a sideboard yet. I find myself wanting to fit another Nicol Bolas in, as well as Griselbrand. I do know I want more sweepers in the board for when I need to cut counterspells, and I want more threats for when sweepers aren't as good. I think I might cut the Ancient Grudges for Smelts, since I don't have any way of getting the G for flashing it back.
For those of you running W and Sun Titan, has anyone considered Hellion Crucible as a 1 of threat? A 4/4 haste can help end games quicker, and can the land can come back with Sun Titan. If I still had Clifftop Retreat, I would test it out, but I think it could be worth running.
DDFT UBWR
Tinfins
Back to back turn 1 kills at SCG St. Louis:
http://blip.tv/scglive/scgstl-leg-rd-8-logan-creen-vs-joe-skirmont-6602155
Mate, I talked about it literally in the post above you...
In short, no: it dies to removal.
The only thing is that they are both very slow. I can understand wanting to play more copies of him, but I don't think running more than two 7/8 drops is a great idea. If you want more walkers/creatures, try out Gideon and Tamiyo. Tamiyo's amazing if you run Lingering Souls/Feeling of Dread to protect her, and you get so much more value out of your sweepers.
I like your maindeck, but 4 sweepers seems one too few to me. Perhaps swap a spot removal spell for a second Whipflare/BSZ? I personally like a miser's copy of Life's Finale — it can sweep stuff with pro-red (SoWaP mainly) or 4+ toughness, and pinching their most valuable creature is a nice perk.
Pillar of Flame is certainly very strong right now. Usually where you'd want it to be instant-speed is with Snapcaster Mage — if you mainphase it, Snapcaster can't surprise-block.
Dismember is fine if you don't expect to run into Titans, but Murder is just bad. There is (almost) zero reason to play it over Doom Blade or Go for the Throat until rotation.
Whoa, you've gone from one extreme to the other! 8 Scars lands is simply too many. I would never run more than 6, and I'd normally advise 4 or less. The M13 duals should be fine! In Grixis, you almost never have lands enter tapped.
Why Griselbrand? The BBBB seems very hard to hit.
An option for Ancient Grudge is to run a split with Smelt, and/or play a Shimmering Grotto or two in the main plus two green duals (I tend to run Copperline Gorge and Hinterland Harbour, because the Gorge replaces a Mountain and you're more likely to have an Island than any other land).
If you want more threats, try Consecrated Sphinx or Wurmcoil Engine. Because it's postboard, they hopefully would have brought out spot removal, so Sphinx will be fairly safe (and if not, you still gain VCA because you'll only have 1-2 Sphinxes, and until you draw one their removal is a dead card).
Unless you're playing straight UR, the deck doesn't have much room for colourless lands. It's definitely a consideration, but I think Ghost Quarter or Desolate Lighthouse are going to be better choices for your one or two colourless land slots. If you're running more than 3 colours, don't play any 'grey lands' at all — it's simply not worth the mana instability. But if you think your list can support it, by all means play it. It's certainly a nice lategame value land.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes: