MTG Salvation

Quote from Megiddo

Why do you assume any of us are afraid to speak out?

Because only a few of you have is my best guess.

Quote from Frox

Because only a few of you have is my best guess.

Sure, and I'd say that that's because only a few feel strongly enough to voice their criticism, not that people are scared of doing so. I haven't seen anything to indicate otherwise.

So Promatim, the fact that I haven't played Magic: the Gathering (aside from on Cockatrice with Manders for a few games sometime last year) makes my concerns about the community irrelevant? If the site were only strictly intended for the people who use it for M:tG, then I imagine the other subforums would not have been created to begin with. Oh wait, what I think doesn't matter because I retired from Magic 4 years ago. But no, I'm glad that you think the only people whose voices matter are the ones who haven't done much to do with the issue at hand at all. Thank you for letting us know exactly where you stand on the matter. (No, that wasn't sarcastic.) It just goes to show the hierarchy that other users have been complaining about that I hadn't noticed until now.

P.S. Played on MafiaScum (and various other sites) for a couple of games. Hated it. I only do Mafia on MTGS and Colo now because of the metas and communities.

Edit:

Quote from Megiddo

Sure, and I'd say that that's because only a few feel strongly enough to voice their criticism, not that people are scared of doing so. I haven't seen anything to indicate otherwise.

And of course, we can't say anything to the contrary because we can't see the discussions that go on in the mod area. How convenient.

Quote from Frox

Because only a few of you have is my best guess.

My best guess is that most of us want to enjoy our day and don't feel it necessary to say anything.

Really, who in their right mind WANTS to participate in this? If they do, they are free to fire away. In the mod lounge there was a request to "not touch it" but there is nobody saying do not post. I didn't read it as a command so much as a recommendation.

Quote from Galspanic

My best guess is that most of us want to enjoy our day and don't feel it necessary to say anything.

Really, who in their right mind WANTS to participate in this? If they do, they are free to fire away. In the mod lounge there was a request to "not touch it" but there is nobody saying do not post. I didn't read it as a command so much as a recommendation.

mind if i asked who made that reccomendation?

also how does one post without touching it?

Quote from Gaea"s Regent

IRL, when my boss makes a "recommendation" I follow it "on my own accord", because I don't want to get in trouble with my boss. Just saying, Gals.

Poggy - no. Sorry, but I will tell you it was not one the people I have ever seen attributed to "Admin Corruption."

GR - I didn't take it to be a gag order, but it is more than fair that it was taken as such. I think I have fixed that. My only request of the staff is to back their claims up with evidence and not just spout off about what they feel. It drives me crazy seeing people taking pot shots at others without anything to actually back that up except "I feel...."

Quote from Belgareth

Oh it's lovely to know the senior staff take community issues so seriously.

Are you saying I don't take this seriously? Please tell me you are kidding.

Quote from ItsZach

If someone is inflammatory towards you, and you are human. It may not be "right", which is incredibly subjective, but I don't see it as a reason to indite someone on grounds of no confidence. Within the context of this discussion, without proper context, it would be wrong to take either side.

What you have given is an instance where is might be understandable, but not appropriate. And it again fails on the context of this being a superior aiming the term at one of there direct reports.

Even if you had the context would you feel the phrase was appropriate?? Especially considering that the current administration have taken the correct decision not to overturn the longstanding rule that certain phrases/words have no place anywhere on the main site when used in any context or used colloquially

I assumed, and it appears incorrectly, that 'owners' of a clan were able to moderate their own forums. This is the primary functionality I have been exposed to within forum communities. If this is not the case, then yes he abused his power. If this is the case, then my original stance of not caring what they do on their time would stand. That being said, this seems like a minor offense unless you're trying to use a slippery slope argument.

Its actions that help to paint a picture and fill in the gaps created when somethings are hidden due to confidentiality clauses.

Galspanic: Whilst I accept that the is not an explicit request not to come forward and touch this issue and can sympathize with Mods not wanting to touch it with the proverbial 10 foot sterilized barge pool, the very existence of a thread advising Mods to stay away is troublesome as if you guys do stay locked away this is just going to fester and get a whole lot worse.

Quote from Galspanic

It drives me crazy seeing people taking pot shots at others without anything to actually back that up except "I feel...."

I think you are too quickly dismissing and devaluing the opinions and feelings of people in this.

well if you could pass along that id like to see that person admit to having posted it, if they are ipartial that should be obvious, if they arent impartial that would likely be obvious as well. Either way keeping(reccomending)the staff from commenting on the issue is dubious and knowing more about this would be helpful

Quote from Belgareth

I agree.

No I'm not kidding I think your post (galspanic)actually casts the staff in a very negative light and only further contributes to the secrecy/conspirational/behind doors lack of transparency .
It is one thing to not post but another to imply people are insane for posting in this thread, very very unprofessional.

i was pretty surprised that he came out with the "reccomendation".
if he was really trying to be secretive i think he would have not mentioned it. i just think he is very awkwardly straddling the line.

my two cents

Galspanic. I've always liked you from my time hanging out in the altered art thread.

And I am shocked that you don't see the elephant in the room! Azrael, arguably the most honorable admin this site has known, has been marginalized. His great crime that 'burned that bridge?' Talking about his interest in purchasing this site.

That was his damnable act.

The fact that Azrael is dismissed for such a ludicrous reason is indicative of a serious problem in and of itself!

Quote from Belgareth

I agree.

No I'm not kidding I think your post (galspanic)actually casts the staff in a very negative light and only further contributes to the secrecy/conspirational/behind doors lack of transparency .

It is one thing to not post but another to imply people are insane for posting in this thread, very very unprofessional.

Perhaps he's just saying that people who don't really have a dog in this fight should stay away from it at the risk of being asked to choose a side and called out if you don't.

I do agree that Galspanic mentioning that thread was a poor choice.

Quote from Belgareth

I agree.

No I'm not kidding I think your post (galspanic)actually casts the staff in a very negative light and only further contributes to the secrecy/conspirational/behind doors lack of transparency .
It is one thing to not post but another to imply people are insane for posting in this thread, very very unprofessional.

I am sorry you read it that way. But can you imagine that any of the staff derive joy/happiness/positive emotional reactions to reading through this thread? No. So, yeah, it might make us look bad but I am only human and I assume the other people here are too. I was not saying that we won't do our duty, but I don't think any of us relish the opportunity to be scrutinized, critiqued, and lambasted by strangers in an online forum that we put so much of ourselves into. It's not easy. It is clearly thankless. And you know that.

Quote from Shazbot

Galspanic. I've always liked you from my time hanging out in the altered art thread.

And I am shocked that you don't see the elephant in the room! Azrael, arguably the most honorable admin this site has known, has been marginalized. His great crime that 'burned that bridge?' Talking about his interest in purchasing this site.

That was his damnable act.

The fact that Azrael is dismissed for such a ludicrous reason is indicative of a serious problem in and of itself!

First, I do see it. But I hardly feel qualified to address it. Can you think of anyway I can say anything without having a fist shoved by my throat by no less than 10 people? I can't. I am not that smart nor am I that committed to this issue. I have plenty of other more pressing things going on and the fact that I get jumped on further reinforces the idea that I have no business even participating in this. Talk to the politicians, not me.

The discussion of him purchasing the site cannot be discussed. Sorry.

Quote from the_cardfather

do agree that Galspanic mentioning that thread was a poor choice.

I would rather people know that some staff feel like they are not allowed to speak out and explain why. Poor choice or not, it's the truth and will hopefully dispel this idea that we aren't letting people talk.

Quote from MandersHex

He called one user "scum in real life" during a Mafia game because that guy's lost reliable internet connection work picked up and daughter needed surgery and lurked a lot because it was a Clan Contest and he couldnt find a clanmate to replace him.

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Too many posts to actually quote them all so I am just gunna shout out to who I am responding too.

@Belgareth - As an Admin elsewhere this whole concept has boggled me since I joined up. Unless you have something to hide, there is no reason that what happens in the Staff areas should be taboo to discuss elsewhere.

Side note - Were I currently admin we have three admins for a memberbase of ~1400. Three admins on a site this large is ludicrous.

@Harkious - Sene may have been the one handing out the infraction that got Kijin suspended, but that doesnt necessarily mean Rian was not involved. At least twice just involving myself Sene has executed Rian's wishes so that Rian was not the one getting his hands dirty.

@metamorph - I second the question of who's gimmick is ItsZach? And why are they hiding behind it instead of coming forward with who they really are. Last time that was pulled it was TomServo, an account made specifically to troll.

@ItsZach, IP masking, especially for someone who claims coding experience is a cake walk. Claiming that you are willing to have them cross reference it doesnt mean a thing.

@Pro - this site also works well for us magic players that dont step foot in the cesspool of armchair pros and squeeling kids that occupy the vast majority of the magic related areas. MTGS is a community of communities and we all should have a voice. Using your logic, every non-magic related section should go. Shall we start with Clans, after the staff are done trying to screw the Gutter?

@ Meg - Because some staff, at least in private to those they can trust, have admitted to being fearful of reprisal for opening speaking out against Rian

@ G-Span - telling the staff to back up what they say, while at the same time tieing their hands with a "what happens in the lounge stays in the lounge" rule makes the point of saying, "yeah go ahead" null and void

Belg - It's all good. I was more trying to get at the fact that this stuff is exhausting. Aside from 1 member of the staff the following picture illustrates nobody I know:

@Galspanic - Just so you know, man. It's not my intention to jump down your throat. I can imagine how it would feel like that though.

Quote from Tordeck

@ Meg - Because some staff, at least in private to those they can trust, have admitted to being fearful of reprisal for opening speaking out against Rian

Naturally I can only speak to what I know, but if this is true then I stand corrected.

I also want to clarify that I was speaking about general participation, and not referring to the thread galspanic was talking about.

Quote from Kahedron

What you have given is an instance where is might be understandable, but not appropriate. And it again fails on the context of this being a superior aiming the term at one of there direct reports.

Even if you had the context would you feel the phrase was appropriate?? Especially considering that the current administration have taken the correct decision not to overturn the longstanding rule that certain phrases/words have no place anywhere on the main site when used in any context or used colloquially.

For the sake of disclosure, that exchange did not happen upon the site, but through outside messaging.
I have no stand on that particular incident, but context must be upheld.

Actually Zach, since you dont know me. I would be suspicious of you regardless of your stance. Generally these topics only get visited by those with a vested interest in the site. Such a low post count doesnt make one seem to be the the kind of user to suddenly jump into this without an alt motive.

Oh and because I somehow failed to mention it before.

@Az - once again, well spoken and thank you for putting into words what I am not so good at doing.

Quote from The Waffle King

A fair point, and actually fairly consistent with what I've seen in the negotiations. Although it seemed like Nai and Sene were the senior staffers in favor of changing the gutter but preserving it, while Rianalnn and expiredrascals opposed it, there's been much less of the apporach initially used by Rianalnn and viperesque when this whole mess started.

Neither rianalnn nor myself were opposed to seeking compromise. Paraphrasing myself from the lounge: "I have doubts that a viable compromise is possible, but I will do everything in my power to ensure the negotiations have a chance of success"


At Azrael:
You too quickly ascribe all the actions of the staff to the figurehead. Rianalnn may be among the most passionate on staff, but he also is the one person always willing to suck it up and take one for the team by volunteering to do the job nobody else wants. The stuff with Kijin, CK, etc. are perfect examples of this. Additionally there are the resignations by misclick and GR, which were both in response to joint decisions by the senior staff but have since been ascribed to assumed unilateral motions by ria.

I don't deny that he's let his emotions can get the best of him. Rianalnn is transparent as they come: he wears his thoughts and emotions on his sleeve and always says what he thinks and minces no words getting to it. Whether this is good or bad will honestly depend on the situation, but whatever he says I can guarantee it is exactly what he's feeling. Has this caused problems? Sure, but nowhere near the magnitude of what you allege.

As to your repeated breaches of ML confidentiality, let me personally tell you that rianalnn was neither the first or most vocal to take issue with them, and you would be remiss to shoot him for being the messenger.

I am an idealist. When I have a problem with someone, or I believe there is a problem, the first thing I do is try to talk it out, because I believe things can be worked out by a meeting of the minds. CK, rianalnn, megiddo, and just about anyone else who has interacted with me can attest to this. In all my interactions with rianalnn, he has never struck me as someone other than one of the utmost integrity. He's vented at me before for something in mod lounge (I'm not redacting the subject, I'm honestly having trouble to remember what it was over), but rather than provide this unilateral laying of the law that you imply, he heard me out and promptly apologized once he heard where I was coming from. I have heard similar stories from others. He may not be perfect, but the first priority for him is to always make amends and move forward. Every time that I've told him I believed he acted unprofessionally, he's acknowledged it and resolved to make things right. I have had no problems with him as an admin or as a global, because I've always found him to be willing to listen to criticism and take it into consideration. If I even for a second found this in doubt, I'd be making the same call in the ML that you are here.

I am not pro- or anti-rianalnn. While I consider him my friend, my first and only concern here is the well-being of the site, and to date I've seen him commit more drive and effort to this site than any other admin, all while taking every piece of criticism to heart. For me, this is the mark of an admin that the site can only stand to benefit from. When this changes is when he should step down.

Regarding our new hires:
I'm honestly offended at this allegation levied against people that you by and large neither know nor have interacted with. First, rianalnn was not the one responsible for our recent hiring model. That was me. It was designed as a stopgap to ensure that we could achieve two sets of eyes or more on every sub in between public calls (this is largely due to the fiasco with the Avatar and Sig Shops forum where the lone mod went MIA without anyone noticing for nearly half a year), and I would say it's by and large been successful. It has allowed us to approach those valuable community members who were too modest to consider themselves, and it has ensured that we get each short-staffed forum extra eyes promptly.
To allege that we've only hired like-minded individuals is also blatantly fallacious. Talore, for example, was hired despite an understanding that he was not on good terms with ria, *I would note that rianalnn supported him despite this*. I would also note that rianalnn, myself, and others have gone out of our way to ensure that the locals know that they are free to voice their opinions. I am sure you saw the splash over of this in mod chat during this most recent gutter controversy, let alone how vocal the opposing members of the staff have been publicly regarding the gutter closure. No action has been taken or suggested against them for voicing their opinion.

Regarding the "Power Play":
Again you're shooting the messenger. All of this was discussed at the global lounge level. All weighed in and agreed that it would not be prudent to bring you on until after the gutter controversy had been resolved. As much as it hurt to defer you, it was not something that was issued as a mandate by any member, let alone rianalnn. And that your return was taken off the table after one of the greatest breaches of trust and confidentiality in the lounge's history is no surprise either. Mod chat is restricted to mods and ex senior staff because it is part of the mod lounge and we expect discretion and confidentiality. While you may not have been there since the CoC was instated, the confidentiality of all sections of the mod lounge was well ingrained even in your tenure.



Like anyone else, I appreciate the way you have with words and your ability to portray a situation, but I can't help but feel your claims are dreadfully off base here.

Quote from ItsZach

Is this a yes regarding the following question?

Yeah, that's generally what the vets who come up with gimmick accounts for these type of occasions do, actually.

Quote from ( N_S )

@ER: Can you provide information on the decision chain which led to my recent suspension for "posting on behalf of a suspended user", and who were the individuals involved?

Thank you in advance.

I cannot due to lounge confidentiality.

I can however say that it was not raised by ria and that there was upwards of ten pages in The Great "Is This Okay?" Thread regarding your suspension. I was just coming off my vacation at the time, so I was not really involved, but the opinions therein mostly looked to be "it's borderline, but not ok". I have reason to believe that had you appealed it would have been overturned due to the borderline nature of the post.