It should be noted the Quietmen were kidnapped and literally brainwashed magically enhanced people they plucked off the streets.
Their identity was completely demolished in the process it took to make them quietmen.
I always took the beginning of Ravnica to be ...
Szadek's forces killing people and using thier corpses to mimic quietmen. That way he could hide an army in plain sight.
It never made sense to me that he'd gain control of them while they are still under the Conclave's control.
Though i'll admit, the story was vague on the whole thing.
Perhaps the fact that there is no longer a Guildpact to maintain helped convince people to give them another chance. It wouldn't be that hard to spin things to make them seem like they're reformed and have more pure intentions now.
Or maybe just like in real life the masses of average people have a very short memory.
Szadek's forces killing people and using thier corpses to mimic quietmen. That way he could hide an army in plain sight.
It never made sense to me that he'd gain control of them while they are still under the Conclave's control.
Though i'll admit, the story was vague on the whole thing.
That's how I read it too.
The book is a bit vague. but it is heavily implied that the quietmen that were running amok were not created by the selesnyans, but by the dimir and golgari working together. The Selesnyans were presented as being sort of sucker punched by everything. You can't really judge the normal character of the guilds by what happened in the book, because everything was being heavily manipulated by the Dimir, to the point where the people who were actually supposed to be running things had no idea what was going on. The people who were being kidnapped and turned into quietmen were victims of the dimir. For all we know, legitimate, selesnyan quietmen may have been volunteers. Its not far fetched at all that members of a guild that values the greater good over the self would volunteer for such work.
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
The book is a bit vague. but it is heavily implied that the quietmen that were running amok were not created by the selesnyans, but by the dimir and golgari working together. The Selesnyans were presented as being sort of sucker punched by everything. You can't really judge the normal character of the guilds by what happened in the book, because everything was being heavily manipulated by the Dimir, to the point where the people who were actually supposed to be running things had no idea what was going on. The people who were being kidnapped and turned into quietmen were victims of the dimir. For all we know, legitimate, selesnyan quietmen may have been volunteers. Its not far fetched at all that members of a guild that values the greater good over the self would volunteer for such work.
So, I actually just finished reading the book, and it's quite clear that:
Savra has been corrupting the Selesnya Unity Tree and the Conclave for some time before the events of the Ravnica book. She started poisoning the tree, and then offered her help to stop the corruption, thus ingratiating herself with the guild who just wanted to see their Golgari brothers and sisters return to the fold. She explicity says this is why she can control at least some of the quietmen around the time of the Convocation during her monologue right before Szadek snaps her neck.
However it is also heavily implied that the Dimir shapeshifters were at least helping the creation of Quietmen by luring people away with 'ghosts' of their loved ones, then killing them. Since we don't know exactly what the quietmen were, it's hard to say either way.
How long after the first Ravnica block is Return to Ravnica set? I do not recall any official sources revealing that information. And how likely is it that Jarad and Fonn's son, Myc, may be an important character in the story, as he is the child of members of two different guilds, and thus has learned both of their philosophies? His mixed heritage could be a major plot point in this block, as he has connections to two guilds, which could theoretically lead to the divisions between the guilds (as each guild has traditionally been very distinct and separate from every other guild) becoming less distinct and unwavering. What does everyone else say about that?
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
How long after the first Ravnica block is Return to Ravnica set? I do not recall any official sources revealing that information. And how likely is it that Jarad and Fonn's son, Myc, may be an important character in the story, as he is the child of members of two different guilds, and thus has learned both of their philosophies? His mixed heritage could be a major plot point in this block, as he has connections to two guilds, which could theoretically lead to the divisions between the guilds (as each guild has traditionally been very distinct and separate from every other guild) becoming less distinct and unwavering. What does everyone else say about that?
We don't know. We never got a solid idea of when the first set was meant to be in comparison to the rest of the multiverse, other than it was pre-mending.
I think Myc being important is probably very unlikely. There's every chance he's dead.
I think Myc being important is probably very unlikely. There's every chance he's dead.
How is that possible? At the end of the Ravnica cycle, which I recently read to prepare for this block, he was alive and well, and left with Jarad to continue studying the ways of the Golgari, although he did not forget his mother and the Selesnya.
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
We're not 100% sure how long it's been since the Mending. Liliana gave some evidence that it was probably about a century ago. This is proved out a bit with Bolas and all his machinations on Alara. In this case, Myc, if not dead, is quite old since it would have been at least 100 years since the last block.
On the other hand, we have Scars of Mirrodin, which puts the Mending at only a few decades ago for a few reasons. Venser still being alive, the Vanishing happening less than a generation ago, etc. In this case Myc might still be alive. But since Scars of Mirrodin was quite a mess as far as continuity is concerned, most tend to ignore its place in the timeline.
All that to say, "It's possible. We'll see."
**There are a few other pieces of evidence for both sides, but those are the big ones.
I'm glad there's going to be clarification on each guild's "civic function" and "division of duties," as I was always unclear on that last time around. Off the top of my head, I could only come up with a few:
Boros: Police
Azorius: Courts
Orzhov: Religion/Organized Crime
Izzet: "Physicists"
Simic: "Biologists" (ironic terms when used with magic)
I'm unclear on the functions of the others, if anyone wants to clarify.
From this article, I'm to gather that Selesnya are the Civil Engineers, or as they put it, "guardian of natural and structural beauty," as well as being another religious option? I had actually always thought of them as the "social workers" of Ravnica, people whose main role is to reform and/or rehabilitate. Like, I would imagine an organization like AA or NA would be Selesnya in spirit--overall benign, if a little dogmatic.
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On MTGO as Protoman.
On 7/14/10, broke 1900 mark! <3 ROE.
I'm glad there's going to be clarification on each guild's "civic function" and "division of duties," as I was always unclear on that last time around. Off the top of my head, I could only come up with a few:
Boros: Police
Azorius: Courts
Orzhov: Religion/Organized Crime
Izzet: "Physicists"
Simic: "Biologists" (ironic terms when used with magic)
I'm unclear on the functions of the others, if anyone wants to clarify.
From this article, I'm to gather that Selesnya are the Civil Engineers, or as they put it, "guardian of natural and structural beauty," as well as being another religious option? I had actually always thought of them as the "social workers" of Ravnica, people whose main role is to reform and/or rehabilitate. Like, I would imagine an organization like AA or NA would be Selesnya in spirit--overall benign, if a little dogmatic.
We're not 100% sure how long it's been since the Mending. Liliana gave some evidence that it was probably about a century ago. This is proved out a bit with Bolas and all his machinations on Alara. In this case, Myc, if not dead, is quite old since it would have been at least 100 years since the last block.
On the other hand, we have Scars of Mirrodin, which puts the Mending at only a few decades ago for a few reasons. Venser still being alive, the Vanishing happening less than a generation ago, etc. In this case Myc might still be alive. But since Scars of Mirrodin was quite a mess as far as continuity is concerned, most tend to ignore its place in the timeline.
All that to say, "It's possible. We'll see."
**There are a few other pieces of evidence for both sides, but those are the big ones.
Brady confirmed in his thread that the Conflux took place directly after the mending. He admitted that there are story elements that don't work with this timeline, but that's the timeline they are using.
I'm glad there's going to be clarification on each guild's "civic function" and "division of duties," as I was always unclear on that last time around.
Each guild contributes something to Ravnica:
Azorius - Make the laws
Dimir - Destroy the gulidpact (this deals with Azor's thinking that every force needs to be countered, so order needs chaos, light needs dark, and the guildpact needs someone to try destroying it).
Rakdos - Mining.
Gruul - Protect the wild places (Note: Over time the wild places were developed. In modern Ravnica the gruul have no purpose)
Conclave - Power the guildpact. (The faith from those in the conclave is actually what powerered the guildpact.)
Orzhov - Lawyers and merchants.
Izzet - Building and engineering.
Golgari - Feed the masses.
Boros - Police force
Simic - Protect nature. (They've decided the best way to do this is to adapt nature to the city).
^ In addition, each guild has branched off, the Simic create alot of biological trade goods, and the Rakdos are heavy into assassins and slaves.
Brady confirmed in his thread that the Conflux took place directly after the mending. He admitted that there are story elements that don't work with this timeline, but that's the timeline they are using.
Where exactly was this? Does it meant that the Conflux may have been a result of the Mending?
It is possible that the mending caused the conflux, though no one has ever said so.
Didn't the Mending cause a bunch of different things across the Multiverse? So it's not a far stretch (and it would keep with the Mending being the BIG mtg event as it should be). Time issues aside, I'd be alright with this.
Brady confirmed in his thread that the Conflux took place directly after the mending. He admitted that there are story elements that don't work with this timeline, but that's the timeline they are using.
Yeah, but if anyone asks, I'm still pointing at all the story elements that existed rather than the handwave they are using for the mending to have happened super recently.
Of course, then again, I will also always explain that they screwed things up.
It should also be noted that they don't have a real timeline. They are just using a series of event markers to establish the general order in which things happened. No time in relation to how long those events happened to each other. (which is probably how all those story elements that contradict their model got put in in the first place.)
Alara was clearly designed with a timescale of decades in mind. About the only element that would draw it close to the mending is Elspeth being an oldwalker (which doesn't really make sense)
Scars happens immediately after.
It's possible the timeline is right after the mending because of Scars block, and that the next story like Alara that needs a different time intervalwill be king.
Didn't the Mending cause a bunch of different things across the Multiverse? So it's not a far stretch (and it would keep with the Mending being the BIG mtg event as it should be). Time issues aside, I'd be alright with this.
The Mending caused one event, the great Auarora on Lorwyn came earlier then expected. (This was heavily suggested to be the mending, though not 100% confirmed).
Brady has also said that the mending stripped the ghost quarter from Ravnica, and it now exists in kind of a pocket plane-kamigawa thing.
It is possible that the mending caused the Conflux, but using Alara timescale, the conflux happened decades after th emending, and was an inevitable event. With Magic now using the Scars Timescale, it seems unlikely that the conflux would happen directly after the mending.
It's good that they shouted out to the events in the original Ravnica block, but is there actually any explanation for how the guilds reasserted control? Seems a pretty big thing to squish into two sentences.
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EDH/Commander
:symu::symr: Niv-Mizzet's Gatling Gun :symr::symu:
:xmana::symu: Memnarch'd :symu::xmana:
:symw::symr: Gisela, Boros Archangel :symr::symw:
:symu::symb::symg: Maniacoplasm :symg::symb::symu::symg:
:symu::symb::symr: He Who Paints The Earth Red :symr::symb::symu:
:symw::symu::symr: Ha Ha, You Can't Attack Me :symr::symw::symu:
:symr::symg: It's a Conspiracy, Dude! :symg::symr:
i don't think they really want to give a long explanation of it, because that'd be too easy to pull apart. Saying that they returned to the norm because of 10 000 years of traditions makes enough sense that the rest can be handwaved imo.
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If you're having creature problems I feel bad for you son
You got 99 attackers but I'm blocking with 1.
The Winner is Judge | 7
This Winner is Also Judge | 6
Club Flamingo | Lots
I'm very happy with every guild as they've been presented here. I like all the little changes that have happened, and a lot of the guilds seem like they've been more fleshed out. The Rakdos page really struck me as giving the Cult a bit of nuance and "meat" that it didn't have before, and I'm surprised by how much I want to know more about them now, since I've never cared for them much in the past. In the case of the Simic it looks like there have been some bigger changes, too (and I've made it abundantly clear that I approve of changing the Simic from their Dissension state). Teysa still being around was a bit of a surprise, but a pleasant one. If we are told what her current age is (or at least a ballpark figure) that would help settle timeline questions. Or create new ones. Whatever.
And man, I want to give Jeremy Jarvis a high-five for art direction. Ravnica always had awesome art, but this new stuff just blows me away, especially the Orzhov, Simic, and Boros. It looks like Gatecrash is going to have plenty of eye-candy.
I'm very happy with every guild as they've been presented here. I like all the little changes that have happened, and a lot of the guilds seem like they've been more fleshed out. The Rakdos page really struck me as giving the Cult a bit of nuance and "meat" that it didn't have before, and I'm surprised by how much I want to know more about them now, since I've never cared for them much in the past. In the case of the Simic it looks like there have been some bigger changes, too (and I've made it abundantly clear that I approve of changing the Simic from their Dissension state). Teysa still being around was a bit of a surprise, but a pleasant one. If we are told what her current age is (or at least a ballpark figure) that would help settle timeline questions. Or create new ones. Whatever.
And man, I want to give Jeremy Jarvis a high-five for art direction. Ravnica always had awesome art, but this new stuff just blows me away, especially the Orzhov, Simic, and Boros. It looks like Gatecrash is going to have plenty of eye-candy.
The lack of Dimir art besides Lazav, "the guildmage (my assumption), and that land area was a little upsetting. I love how they made Lazav an active shapeshifter who gets stuff done. Hey, maybe they won't be hilariously cliche evil for the sake of being evil this time.
Borb is getting old. Interesting tidbit of information.
The lack of Dimir art besides Lazav, "the guildmage (my assumption), and that land area was a little upsetting. I love how they made Lazav an active shapeshifter who gets stuff done. Hey, maybe they won't be hilariously cliche evil for the sake of being evil this time.
Well, that was a pleasant surprise - the guild profiles are treat for Vorthosi.
I like the completely overhauled Simic - no cytoplasts, no Novijen (that was destroyed), and a merfolk mystery.
Slavic references FTW again! Zameck is zámek, i.e. "castle", and the three pillars of Azorius - Jelenn, Lyev and Sova are literally deer, lion and owl.
But...
Suniel the Woodwise, an elf woodshaper, was responsible for the restoration of Vitu-Ghazi after an assault by the mad Izzet magelord Zomaj Hauc.
Nice to see them trying to tie-in with old books, but this is a fail. Vitu-Ghazi =/= Vitar Yescu.
What would we do without our noble Czech? Well, we would still have an interesting backstory but without etymology. Do the names line up with the goals/uses of the three columns?
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[I was permabanned and all I got to show for it was .... well, nothing.]
What would we do without our noble Czech? Well, we would still have an interesting backstory but without etymology. Do the names line up with the goals/uses of the three columns?
Pretty much, yes.
Lion as law enforcement = OK.
Owl as judicial power = Yeah, I guess (see ancient Greece)
The only curious choice is deer as the symbol of law creation.
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100% Vorthos Spike and Storyline Expert
Former Fact Prospector of the Greek Alliance.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
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I always took the beginning of Ravnica to be ...
It never made sense to me that he'd gain control of them while they are still under the Conclave's control.
Though i'll admit, the story was vague on the whole thing.
Or maybe just like in real life the masses of average people have a very short memory.
That's how I read it too.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
So, I actually just finished reading the book, and it's quite clear that:
However it is also heavily implied that the Dimir shapeshifters were at least helping the creation of Quietmen by luring people away with 'ghosts' of their loved ones, then killing them. Since we don't know exactly what the quietmen were, it's hard to say either way.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
We don't know. We never got a solid idea of when the first set was meant to be in comparison to the rest of the multiverse, other than it was pre-mending.
I think Myc being important is probably very unlikely. There's every chance he's dead.
How is that possible? At the end of the Ravnica cycle, which I recently read to prepare for this block, he was alive and well, and left with Jarad to continue studying the ways of the Golgari, although he did not forget his mother and the Selesnya.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
On the other hand, we have Scars of Mirrodin, which puts the Mending at only a few decades ago for a few reasons. Venser still being alive, the Vanishing happening less than a generation ago, etc. In this case Myc might still be alive. But since Scars of Mirrodin was quite a mess as far as continuity is concerned, most tend to ignore its place in the timeline.
All that to say, "It's possible. We'll see."
**There are a few other pieces of evidence for both sides, but those are the big ones.
Boros: Police
Azorius: Courts
Orzhov: Religion/Organized Crime
Izzet: "Physicists"
Simic: "Biologists" (ironic terms when used with magic)
I'm unclear on the functions of the others, if anyone wants to clarify.
From this article, I'm to gather that Selesnya are the Civil Engineers, or as they put it, "guardian of natural and structural beauty," as well as being another religious option? I had actually always thought of them as the "social workers" of Ravnica, people whose main role is to reform and/or rehabilitate. Like, I would imagine an organization like AA or NA would be Selesnya in spirit--overall benign, if a little dogmatic.
On 7/14/10, broke 1900 mark! <3 ROE.
The wiki on Ravnica seems to have a good outline
Brady confirmed in his thread that the Conflux took place directly after the mending. He admitted that there are story elements that don't work with this timeline, but that's the timeline they are using.
Each guild contributes something to Ravnica:
Azorius - Make the laws
Dimir - Destroy the gulidpact (this deals with Azor's thinking that every force needs to be countered, so order needs chaos, light needs dark, and the guildpact needs someone to try destroying it).
Rakdos - Mining.
Gruul - Protect the wild places (Note: Over time the wild places were developed. In modern Ravnica the gruul have no purpose)
Conclave - Power the guildpact. (The faith from those in the conclave is actually what powerered the guildpact.)
Orzhov - Lawyers and merchants.
Izzet - Building and engineering.
Golgari - Feed the masses.
Boros - Police force
Simic - Protect nature. (They've decided the best way to do this is to adapt nature to the city).
^ In addition, each guild has branched off, the Simic create alot of biological trade goods, and the Rakdos are heavy into assassins and slaves.
Where exactly was this? Does it meant that the Conflux may have been a result of the Mending?
Brady has a thread over at the offfical forums.
It is possible that the mending caused the conflux, though no one has ever said so.
Didn't the Mending cause a bunch of different things across the Multiverse? So it's not a far stretch (and it would keep with the Mending being the BIG mtg event as it should be). Time issues aside, I'd be alright with this.
Yeah, but if anyone asks, I'm still pointing at all the story elements that existed rather than the handwave they are using for the mending to have happened super recently.
Of course, then again, I will also always explain that they screwed things up.
It should also be noted that they don't have a real timeline. They are just using a series of event markers to establish the general order in which things happened. No time in relation to how long those events happened to each other. (which is probably how all those story elements that contradict their model got put in in the first place.)
It seems possible, but I think unlikely. It seems it was already happening.
Scars happens immediately after.
It's possible the timeline is right after the mending because of Scars block, and that the next story like Alara that needs a different time intervalwill be king.
The Mending caused one event, the great Auarora on Lorwyn came earlier then expected. (This was heavily suggested to be the mending, though not 100% confirmed).
Brady has also said that the mending stripped the ghost quarter from Ravnica, and it now exists in kind of a pocket plane-kamigawa thing.
It is possible that the mending caused the Conflux, but using Alara timescale, the conflux happened decades after th emending, and was an inevitable event. With Magic now using the Scars Timescale, it seems unlikely that the conflux would happen directly after the mending.
EDH/Commander
:symu::symr: Niv-Mizzet's Gatling Gun :symr::symu:
:xmana::symu: Memnarch'd :symu::xmana:
:symw::symr: Gisela, Boros Archangel :symr::symw:
:symu::symb::symg: Maniacoplasm :symg::symb::symu::symg:
:symu::symb::symr: He Who Paints The Earth Red :symr::symb::symu:
:symw::symu::symr: Ha Ha, You Can't Attack Me :symr::symw::symu:
:symr::symg: It's a Conspiracy, Dude! :symg::symr:
You got 99 attackers but I'm blocking with 1.
The Winner is Judge | 7
This Winner is Also Judge | 6
Club Flamingo | Lots
I'm very happy with every guild as they've been presented here. I like all the little changes that have happened, and a lot of the guilds seem like they've been more fleshed out. The Rakdos page really struck me as giving the Cult a bit of nuance and "meat" that it didn't have before, and I'm surprised by how much I want to know more about them now, since I've never cared for them much in the past. In the case of the Simic it looks like there have been some bigger changes, too (and I've made it abundantly clear that I approve of changing the Simic from their Dissension state). Teysa still being around was a bit of a surprise, but a pleasant one. If we are told what her current age is (or at least a ballpark figure) that would help settle timeline questions. Or create new ones. Whatever.
And man, I want to give Jeremy Jarvis a high-five for art direction. Ravnica always had awesome art, but this new stuff just blows me away, especially the Orzhov, Simic, and Boros. It looks like Gatecrash is going to have plenty of eye-candy.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
The lack of Dimir art besides Lazav, "the guildmage (my assumption), and that land area was a little upsetting. I love how they made Lazav an active shapeshifter who gets stuff done. Hey, maybe they won't be hilariously cliche evil for the sake of being evil this time.
Borb is getting old. Interesting tidbit of information.
There is more artwork in the quiz.
I like the completely overhauled Simic - no cytoplasts, no Novijen (that was destroyed), and a merfolk mystery.
Slavic references FTW again! Zameck is zámek, i.e. "castle", and the three pillars of Azorius - Jelenn, Lyev and Sova are literally deer, lion and owl.
But...
Nice to see them trying to tie-in with old books, but this is a fail. Vitu-Ghazi =/= Vitar Yescu.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
It is a bit weird considering that the second book didn't even take place in the city.
But it is nice to know that Vitu-Gazi has been repaired, and is no longer dying. That was acually one of the questions i was going to ask Brady.
Pretty much, yes.
Lion as law enforcement = OK.
Owl as judicial power = Yeah, I guess (see ancient Greece)
The only curious choice is deer as the symbol of law creation.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)