well yes, but what good is that versatility if overall the deck isn't stronger? stronger in terms of win%
The only way that versatility doesn't make a deck stronger is if the added versatility makes the deck more inconsistent. I don't believe that splashing black makes the deck inconsistent. I'd highly suggest that you take a look at trying black. Sorin is insane. Lingering Souls is insane.
If you don't want to run GWb - that's fine. But, the raw advantage you get from those two cards seriously can't be argued, logically at least. Preference wise or playstyle wise, GW can be argued. Wayfaring and Precinct turn the deck into a different deck than the lists in here.
Oh, I also forgot Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage won me about two games by herself . One because it was against American Control, and it was a long game where we both had ton of mana. Vitu basically turned herself into an army without a token generator. One two drop required a sweeper. One game she was answered by a sweeper which gave me enough time to draw cards to have another army right after. Another she wasn't answered and she won.
The other was a game that I had to mulligan down to 4 with no good cards in hand against GB zombies. I ended up being able to stall with a 3/3 Centaur because he was stuck on two lands and couldn't use Dreg Mangler or Geralf. I stabilized at 4 life. I played Vitu turned 3 and started populating turn 4. I only drew one other token generator that game, it was a Sorin. After a few turns Vitu won the game with a simple -2 Emblem. Fantastic card...
Play tested my Junk tokens list against U/R Delver and Jund ramp.
Crushed delver 3-0 (he drew bad), and split 3-3 vs jund.
Jund had sideboarded against my deck, but I didnt sideboard against his.
Huntmaster of the fells with instant speed shenagins was a huge huge beating.
And (unspurpringly) so is golgari charm.
We definitly will be losing the sideboard battle against golgari based decks. My opponent had 3x golgari charms in his sideboard, and it was really rough.
Overall think we have a losing matchup against Jund ramp.
Bonfire, golgari charm , abrubt decay (gg intangible virtue), overloaded mizzium morders. Dreadbore against Trostani/Planeswalkers. Holding onto some rootborn defenses or dont want to overcommit? Ugh rakdos returns to screw up your plan.
1. When people sideboard against Junk Tokens, They will probably be hating on swarms of 1/1 creatures and enchantments. This should shape your sideboarding strategy. You should have the option to sideboard into a fatter, more resilient deck.
I currently run 3x Geist Honored monks in the main deck, but am going to be sideboarding her out a lot.
I think she is the most synergistic 5 drop in our deck, but against decks that can "hate" on our anthems AND swarms, she is quite poor. This gets magnified when they hit the sideboard.
In those circumstances she loses a LOT of of her power.
Midnight haunting becomes a lot worse.
I would sideboard out arbor elf against some decks too
Note: Im not saying sideboard your core cards (despite them being worse).
2. Between main deck and sideboard Trostani MUST be a 3+ of.
3. Between main deck and sideboard Rootborn MUST be a 4 of.
4. Between your main deck and your sideboard Thragtusk LIKELY is a 3 of.
5. Your sideboard should contain at least 2 Sundering growths for U/W/x Control , decks that use gilded lotus and the mirror match. Gimme back my planeswalker plz!
Trostani:
Unreal against some decks. Dead against others.
Dreadbore , wraths and excessive bounce is her main enemy.
Against agro she is our best card. Against decks without many ways to deal 5 damage to target creature or "kill target creature", she is INSANE.
Main decking her is meta dependent.
Rootborn defenses:
I had it as a 2 of maindeck, but in most metas I think its likely a 3 of. If you only run 3, the 4th is also a sideboard mandatory card. In the matches where it's at its worst, it's only slightly below curve. In matches where it's at it's best, it's NECESSARY.
Giving you less creatures to populate and hurting some opening hands, means im hesitant to run 4 main, but it may be correct.
2x Overloaded Mizzium mortars and a hardcasted bonfire for 2 from Jund ramp list changed half my playtesting games from a very dominating board position to a GG FML u win.
1. When people sideboard against Junk Tokens, They will probably be hating on swarms of 1/1 creatures and enchantments. This should shape your sideboarding strategy. You should have the option to sideboard into a fatter, more resilient deck.
I currently run 3x Geist Honored monks in the main deck, but am going to be sideboarding her out a lot.
I think she is the most synergistic 5 drop in our deck, but against decks that can "hate" on our anthems AND swarms, she is quite poor. This gets magnified when they hit the sideboard.
In those circumstances she loses a LOT of of her power.
Midnight haunting becomes a lot worse.
I would sideboard out arbor elf against some decks too
Note: Im not saying sideboard your core cards (despite them being worse).
2. Between main deck and sideboard Trostani MUST be a 3+ of.
3. Between main deck and sideboard Rootborn MUST be a 4 of.
4. Between your main deck and your sideboard Thragtusk LIKELY is a 3 of.
5. Your sideboard should contain at least 2 Sundering growths for U/W/x Control , decks that use gilded lotus and the mirror match. Gimme back my planeswalker plz!
2x Overloaded Mizzium mortars and a hardcasted bonfire for 2 from Jund ramp list changed half my playtesting games from a very dominating board position to a GG FML u win.
I'm interested to see your current list if you don't mind.
I do agree on your analysis that people will first try to hate out enchantments and 1/1 creatures, because of this they will be dropping their spot removal. We need to take advantage of this - as it essentially works in our favour. Thragtusk is the perfect card to fill this role. We may also want to consider Odric (to help our tokens get through as they won't be as powerful), Wild Beastmaster, Elder of Laurals or Entreat the Angels. I'm trying to contemplate other high-powered single cards that work with token strategies. I'll think about this today. However, I've found that running both Sorin and Garruk Primal Hunter that I am much more resilient to Jund's or UWx sweepers. What I mean to say is this, if I have Rootbond in hand my swarm is fine - if I don't then it takes a few turns to get my board back. Of course I've been play testing against Jund Control/Ramp and not a Jund Aggro deck (that isn't Zombies).
2. Between main deck and sideboard Trostani MUST be a 3+ of.
Trostani:
Unreal against some decks. Dead against others.
Dreadbore , wraths and excessive bounce is her main enemy.
Against agro she is our best card. Against decks without many ways to deal 5 damage to target creature or "kill target creature", she is INSANE.
Main decking her is meta dependent.
Has she really been that good for you? Every time I've tested her against Aggro 9 times out of 10 she's too slow. Simply, they ignore her 2/5 body and run through me while losing one blocker. GW running Champion of Lambholt doesn't care, Loxodon Smiter doesn't care, Silverblade Paladin doesn't care, Aristocrat doesn't care, Dreg Mangeler + Rancor doesn't care... What type of deck were you siding her in?
Thragtusk - yeah, he probably is a necessary evil in the sideboard. I wouldn't want him in any game I'm trying to grind out against a control deck though - which makes me not want him mainboard. I'm currently running 2 SB, have thought about upping that to 3.
Rootborn Defenses - I agree. I was testing only three main to give room for some more slots in the SB... but I want it back.
I really don't like how slow this deck is becoming. Our cards aren't strong enough to out-power a control deck. We can make lots of guys really fast, and very often. That is the strength of the deck, and exactly the way I want to play the deck.
I do believe that you can make this deck quite fast. I've taken for more of the grindy approach myself - which I should probably assess. I think with the grindy aspect we can both have a good match against aggressive and a somewhat good match against hyperaggressive match ups while still having somewhat of a good match against control. It seems the best of all worlds. However, if you want to speed the deck up I'd go no higher than 5 CMC. Maybe with Predatory Rampage or Revenge of the Hunted at the top of your list. The problem I have with this is that decks are essentially going to be more midrange - and if we don't have a way of playing the midrange game we're simply going to lose to things that get bigger than us. Hence why I fell in love with Collective Blessing.
I still feel, however, that you can tune this deck to be fast, hard and efficient. Rancors, Doomed Travelers, LS, Haunting, maybe even Runechanter's Pike (since we use a lot of instants), followed with a few Revenge of the Hunteds and your army has just become threatening.
Been waiting for my suspension to run out so i could start posting in this thread. I personally feel that this archetype is a serious contender come rotation. I have playtested 4-5 decks and this seems to be one of the more powerful and versitile. Post-sideboard we can change our win % against a lot of decks where our match-up might be sub-optimal.
This is the list I have been testing the last 2 weeks ago:
In case you guys are curious about a few of my card choices.
Mainboard:
2x Tragic slip: I originally has this as a 3-of but I ended up adding rootborn defenses MB so I put one in the SB. This card really helps to remove threats and cards that can stop our deck dead. Cards i've hit with tragic slip: Restoration Angel, Sublime Archangel, Wolfrir Silverheart, Thundermaw Hellkite, any 1 toughness dudes with rancors. Still debating whether 3 MB is better, more testing will help, it's been so good i had a hard time justifying cutting down to 2.
2x Rootborn Defenses: I originally had 3 MB but then realized a lot of match-ups when I would draw it that it was essentially a dead-card. Either never had the mana open when my opponent would sweep (Since were always trying to keep pressure) or it would just sit in my hand and do nothing because no sweepers were drawn. I'm debating putting all 3 in the SB to add more removal MB. Either 2x Decay or 2x Tragic Slip, still not sure what would be best, currently leaning more towards slip.
2x Vraska, the Unseen: This woman is a house and has won games for me more then a few times. Everyone says she is sb material but I vehemently disagree. Either you have tokens out so you can keep +ing her all day, your behind and your opponent dropped his win-con and she comes in and blows it up, you + her twice and your opponent is so far behind because you can either have 3 auto-win tokens or 2 Vindicates on a stick. I almost always play her as a Vindicate on a stick. Cannot tell you how many time's i've had Sorin + Her out and no matter how many boardwipes Sorin would just keep pumping tokens, I'd gain life, and Vraska would just tick up until anything my opponent would play i would just blow up.
There are a few match-ups where she's not the best card to drop but she is hardly ever bad. She still serves a purpose game 1 in these types of match-ups and then g2+3 I remove her for the 2x Thragtusk in the sb.
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons: The one tutor target for Garruk in the deck. I'm hardly ever sad to draw her. Her p/t lets you block profitably with a lot of creatures and you dont have to worry about her taking damage and then getting slipped or burnt out because hexproof. She's not PHENOMINAL, but she does help stabilize and if you managed to put on early pressure she can close out games quickly, especially if you have a few spirit tokens. As 1-of she serves her purpose well.
Sideboard:
3 Knight of Glory: Eats zombies for breakfast
2 Thragtusk: Replaces Vraska in sub-optimal matchups
2 Rest in Peace: Comes in for delver/zombies
2 Duress: Rips cards like Supreme Verdict and Mizzium Mortars out of our opponents hands
1 Abrupt Decay: More removal to hit annyoing things like Electromancers, Delvers, Loxodon Smiter, any zombie, and a lot of Rakdos creatures
1 Sundering Growth: Only piece of artifact removal sb, comes in for Runechanter's Pike decks and mirror match for enchantment removal.
1 Trostani: Zombies hate this card
1 Tragic Slip: More versitile removal which is relevant in a lot of match-ups
1 Tribute to Hunger: hits Geist of St. Traft if he's alone or even Desecrator Demon against control decks.
1 Sever the Bloodline : I love this card, exiles MULTIPLE gravecrawlers or MULTIPLE geralfs which sets Zombie players back so far its almost impossible to recover.
Things i refuse to give up: Mana dorks. This deck I feel simply is not as aggressive without them. T2 Souls/haunting/charm+rancor into t3 Sorin/Garruk is insanely aggressive and I notice a lot of decks have a hard time keeping up, especially if were on the play. Half the reason I'm playing Junk over Esper is due to mana dorks and the amount of speed they give our deck. This along with rancor makes our deck insane and really puts the opponent under the gun. Did I mention how awesome Rancor is on Sorin's tokens?
Overall, I feel like my MB is almost as tight as it can get. Once I make the tragic slip/rootborn decision it will be pretty much finalized. The sb will obviously change as i test more and see which decks are obviously more popular then others, and then tune the sb accordingly. Right now though the sb is pretty decent and I have a solid amount of cards to side-in for most match-ups. B/W tokens was my favorite deck this last season, Junk tokens feels like an OP version of the original, and I like it. I'll be playing this deck at states and the tcgplayer 5k in Hartford the week after rotation, that's how sure I am that this deck is the real deal.
I'm extremely surprised with your lack of Call of the Conclave. Can you give me your reasoning? I'll respond to your overall deck in a few. I think it's interesting and have a few questions as to your reasonings. None though as much as the lack of Call.
I'm extremely surprised with your lack of Call of the Conclave. Can you give me your reasoning? I'll respond to your overall deck in a few. I think it's interesting and have a few questions as to your reasonings. None though as much as the lack of Call.
I don't play call because there is simply no room. I had it in the deck during my first iteration of the deck I tested and it just didn't feel as good as it should have. First of all it's sorcery speed, I'd rather play charm for this very reason, plus the multiple uses it can have. Second, the token has no evasion and usually just plays the role as chumper or gets removed via unsummon. Third, 9/10 times I have 3 mana t2, which at that point I am more inclined to drop my evasive fliers. Call kindof just doesnt fit the curve of my deck, if I were to drop to 0 dorks, I would 100% play Call. But simply with the dorks i have no room to fit the card in and the 2-drop spot on the curve gets skipped more often then not. I just can't look at my decklist and justify taking anything out for Call, it's already too tight of a list.
I don't play call because there is simply no room. I had it in the deck during my first iteration of the deck I tested and it just didn't feel as good as it should have. First of all it's sorcery speed, I'd rather play charm for this very reason, plus the multiple uses it can have. Second, the token has no evasion and usually just plays the role as chumper or gets removed via unsummon. Third, 9/10 times I have 3 mana t2, which at that point I am more inclined to drop my evasive fliers. Call kindof just doesnt fit the curve of my deck, if I were to drop to 0 dorks, I would 100% play Call. But simply with the dorks i have no room to fit the card in and the 2-drop spot on the curve gets skipped more often then not. I just can't look at my decklist and justify taking anything out for Call, it's already too tight of a list.
That's a fair answer, as much as I disagree that replacing Call is the rigt approach. I understand your dedication to the mana dorks as they give you some consistency to ramp into turn 3 and also allows you to use your higher curve to your advantage. However, after play testing against Jund/GB zombies or simply any deck that has access black or red I've been noticing that my dorks still aren't living as consistently as I'd like them too. Last Standard was obviously worse with Gut Shot, however with Rakdos colours being strong in this set turn 1 removal is still extemely prevelant. Essentially I wanted to ask, how badly are you hampered by losing your dork, and do you feel the risk is worth it? One of my major considerations to dropping my Dorks to 4 and adding Call/Vitu is that I'm not as hampered if I do lose a dork, or if I don't have one in hand for turn 1. Maybe it's my susceptibility to ramp but I've never enjoyed having to mulligan because I didn't have a dork in my hand followed by a turn 3 play.
I like your walker count, a lot. Sorin is a total boss and Relentless, while not optimal, has to be respected. Vraska is still an interesting debate. May I ask what decks you feel she underperformed and which she is an all-star. The reason I ask, is hat from my limited testing with her (only one copy in the SB) she is useful against control. She obviously had weak matchups, but what do you find that you are vindicating more often?
The slips and the Rancors are good suggestions, especially if you can keep your field safe from sweeps. The reason I cut mine was that I felt I'd either too many support spells with no beef or no support spells. I decided to go for beef, with the only necessary card being Defenses and Charm. All-in-all whats your confidence or trust level in these or do question these cards at times?
No Gavony? Why? Especially with losing bigger token cards, do you miss this sometimes?
I really like that youve chosen Sever in the SB. I feel this card is insane in black and will be a house for our deck. Your sideboard seems like a mess, but that's to be expected without a meta to analyze.
Sorry if it seemed I ask a lot of questions, I'm just really interested in the analytical reasoning behind people's choices. I like your deck - I feel it achieves what it wants to do. However, I'm worried about its safety against sweepers without the bigger token generators and the large support buff from collective blessing.
Have you considered Sublime Archangel over sigarda?
PS: Sorry about the formatting or lack of tags. On phone.
That's a fair answer, as much as I disagree that replacing Call is the rigt approach. I understand your dedication to the mana dorks as they give you some consistency to ramp into turn 3 and also allows you to use your higher curve to your advantage. However, after play testing against Jund/GB zombies or simply any deck that has access black or red I've been noticing that my dorks still aren't living as consistently as I'd like them too. Last Standard was obviously worse with Gut Shot, however with Rakdos colours being strong in this set turn 1 removal is still extemely prevelant. Essentially I wanted to ask, how badly are you hampered by losing your dork, and do you feel the risk is worth it? One of my major considerations to dropping my Dorks to 4 and adding Call/Vitu is that I'm not as hampered if I do lose a dork, or if I don't have one in hand for turn 1. Maybe it's my susceptibility to ramp but I've never enjoyed having to mulligan because I didn't have a dork in my hand followed by a turn 3 play.
I like your walker count, a lot. Sorin is a total boss and Relentless, while not optimal, has to be respected. Vraska is still an interesting debate. May I ask what decks you feel she underperformed and which she is an all-star. The reason I ask, is hat from my limited testing with her (only one copy in the SB) she is useful against control. She obviously had weak matchups, but what do you find that you are vindicating more often?
The slips and the Rancors are good suggestions, especially if you can keep your field safe from sweeps. The reason I cut mine was that I felt I'd either too many support spells with no beef or no support spells. I decided to go for beef, with the only necessary card being Defenses and Charm. All-in-all whats your confidence or trust level in these or do question these cards at times?
No Gavony? Why? Especially with losing bigger token cards, do you miss this sometimes?
I really like that youve chosen Sever in the SB. I feel this card is insane in black and will be a house for our deck. Your sideboard seems like a mess, but that's to be expected without a meta to analyze.
Sorry if it seemed I ask a lot of questions, I'm just really interested in the analytical reasoning behind people's choices. I like your deck - I feel it achieves what it wants to do. However, I'm worried about its safety against sweepers without the bigger token generators and the large support buff from collective blessing.
Have you considered Sublime Archangel over sigarda?
PS: Sorry about the formatting or lack of tags. On phone.
While getting my dork removed does suck, it's really not the WORST thing to happen. Usually i have a Virtue or Charm I can play so while it makes the deck lose a bit of tempo it's not game-ending. The amount of speed the dorks provide when they aren't removed more then compensates for the few times they get removed, because the deck still runs 8 2-drops which makes sure you still have plays.
Vraska is sub-optimal against zombies and tempo decks (This is when thragtusk comes in g2+3). Again, not BAD, as she still comes down and hits anything, it's simply suboptimal because Zombies has recurring threats and tempo just has cheap costing creatures which makes her -3 feel bad, but her abilities are better used (and amazing) in the mid-range/control match-ups. Mid-range she hits all the fat beaters/fliers that would give us problems while we swing in the sky, and against control she hits Planeswalkers/Nighthawk/Desecrator Demon etc. I'm surprised you think shes bad in the control match up, because with the limited win-cons they have I find her to be devastating. It's not hard to keep building her to pop her -3 atleast 3 times in the midrange match-up with all our tokens we have to buy time (and while swinging if virtue is out).
I wouldn't cut the Rancors and Slips for anything else. Our deck has no answers to cards that simply outclass ours, and tragic slip gives us the ability to take care of this problem by simply chump blocking. Resto angel gives me a LOT of problems without slip, that's why I mention in my post I want 3 MB, it's just that good so we can keep removing threats while we keep adding pressure on the board. Rancor, again, I would not cut this for anything. In games where we might not have the optimal hand it really helps us keep pressure by being able to keep up with the beats so when we stabilize we can win quickly. The synergy between Rancor and Sorin's tokens is insane against aggro decks. It just set's them so far behind when you keep churning tokens and every chump your gaining 3, and then you just keep re-enchanting. With virtue they're 4/2's, I love this boardstate. Also, Rancor on opponents creature in order to Charm it is more then a cute play, it's a really effective. I have done this play on Geralfs that already have the +1/+1 counter, Resto angels, etc. It just adds another synergy/angle at which you can play the deck.
IMO Vault > Gavony. Aggro decks simply fold once Vault is online. You're either swinging and gaining life or blocking, destroying their dudes, AND gaining life. I almost never lose a game once vaults online, it allows me to pretty much run away with the game. I've been down 16 to 8, gotten vault online, swung for 8 to COMPLETELY flip the life totals, and then win the turn after. Vault changes the tide of the game drastically and leads to blowouts. Gavony while good, is more gradual and grindy, while vault is aggressive and makes you opponent think twice before blocking or swinging.
I dont play Blessing because I feel like Sorin + Virtue do a well enough job of buffing our creatures and I'd rather have Vraska to gelp control the board in the mid/late game. With the Rancor's as well it's not hard to close up the game before Blessing would even be relevant.
I like Sigarda more then Sublime because of hexproof. Since we play very few ACTUAL creatures, it's very likely by the time you drop these creatures your opponent is sitting on spot removal. If you drop Sublime, the opponent will remove it every time. Sigarda makes the spot removal dead in his hand and he'll end up wasting it on a token which is what I want my opponent to do. I invite you to play a few games on cockatrice with the deck, you'll find the it has a TON of good match-ups, and the bad/okay ones (of which there are few) become good ones after sideboard.
While getting my dork removed does suck, it's really not the WORST thing to happen. Usually i have a Virtue or Charm I can play so while it makes the deck lose a bit of tempo it's not game-ending. The amount of speed the dorks provide when they aren't removed more then compensates for the few times they get removed, because the deck still runs 8 2-drops which makes sure you still have plays.
Vraska is sub-optimal against zombies and tempo decks (This is when thragtusk comes in g2+3). Again, not BAD, as she still comes down and hits anything, but her abilities are better used in the mid-range/control match-ups. Mid-range she hits all the fat beaters/fliers that would give us problems while we swing in the sky, and against control she hits Planeswalkers/Nighthawk/Desecrator Demon etc. I'm surprised you think shes bad in the control match up, because with the limited win-cons they have I find her to be devastating.
I wouldn't cut the Rancors and Slips for anything else. Our deck has no answers to cards that simply outclass ours, and tragic slip gives us the ability to take care of this problem by simply chump blocking. Resto angel gives me a LOT of problems without slip, that's why I mention in my post I want 3 MB, it's just that good so we can keep removing threats while we keep adding pressure on the board. Rancor, again, I would not cut this for anything. In games where we might not have the optimal hand it really helps us keep pressure by being able to keep up with the beats so when we stabilize we can win quickly. The synergy between Rancor and Sorin's tokens is insane against aggro decks. It just set's them so far behind when you keep churning tokens and every chump your gaining 3, and then you just keep re-enchanting. With virtue they're 4/2's, I love this boardstate. Also, Rancor on opponents creature in order to Charm it is more then a cute play, it's a really effective. I have done this play on Geralfs that already have the +1/+1 counter, Resto angels, etc. It just adds another synergy/angle at which you can play the deck.
IMO Vault > Gavony. Aggro decks simply fold once Vault is online. You're either swinging and gaining life or blocking, destroying their dudes, AND gaining life. I almost never lose a game once vaults online, it allows me to pretty much run away with the game. I've been down 16 to 8, gotten vault online, swung for 8 to COMPLETELY flip the life totals, and then win the turn after. Vault changes the tide of the game drastically and leads to blowouts. Gavony while good, is more gradual and grindy, while vault is aggressive and makes you opponent think twice before blocking or swinging.
I dont play Blessing because I feel like Sorin + Virtue do a well enough job of buffing our creatures and I'd rather have Vraska to gelp control the board in the mid/late game. With the Rancor's as well it's not hard to close up the game before Blessing would even be relevant.
I like Sigarda more then Sublime because of hexproof. Since we play very few ACTUAL creatures, it's very likely by the time you drop these creatures your opponent is sitting on spot removal. If you drop Sublime, the opponent will remove it every time. Sigarda makes the spot removal dead in his hand and he'll end up wasting it on a token which is what I want my opponent to do. I invite you to play a few games on cockatrice with the deck, you'll find the it has a TON of good match-ups, and the bad/okay ones become good ones after sideboard.
I may try out your list for a few matches to see how yours plays. I feel that your deck is for more aggressive players, such as Yami. I do really enjoy it, and I'd be very much interested in playing it. As mine is a lot more grindy, however, I could see Vraska being a problem if we were to face. I mistyped myself regarding Vraska - I thought she was only good in the control matchup. After re-reading I apologize for the confusion. I've played with Sorin + Rancor before... It is actually fantastic and it means as long as you can trade profitably against an aggro deck and keep Sorin alive. You'll win. Rancor + 3/1 (or 4/2 lifelink) is actually silly. It's better than Thragtusk. I guess I'm not sold on Sigarda. I feel she doesn't... fit? our deck. That's not the right word, but I'm happy that she works for you. I feel she's a fantastic card against Jund, and maybe deserves a SB card - but maybe not main. Have you considered dropping Relentless or Sigarda for your third slip?
I 100% agree that your deck is strong, and very aggressive. I like it a lot. May I use it in my primer, credited of course as a basis for an aggressive version of the deck?
Honestly, I think armada wurm should be our singleton creature. While he may be higher on the curve his level is very reminicient of broodmate dragon.That said, I like believes list, with rootborn and rancor being my only exceptions.
Honestly, I think armada wurm should be our singleton creature. While he may be higher on the curve his level is very reminicient of broodmate dragon.That said, I like believes list, with rootborn and rancor being my only exceptions.
I really like his list as well. Personally, as someone who isn't a fan of Relentless I find his tutoring ability rather lackluster. I'd much prefer putting an Entreat the Angels in Sigarda's or Armada Wurm's place. However, I do understand the relevance of it. Yet, with only a few relentless and the amount of turns it takes to flip him and tutor... it may not be worth it. I mean, at most - he'd be able to fight something that's a 1 power creature. Tutor the next turn without losing him, and then play it. That's okay. Chances are - he won't have a good fight target or it'll be at least 2 power, which means you'll be losing your walker, a creature for a card. That doesn't sound like good value to me :/ Even if the creature is Armada Wurm. Or, if we were going the aggressive route - Geist-Honoured Monk. She fits our curve better non-tutored. Sigarda just seems clunky, slow and useful against only specific matchups UWx Detain/Control (go away feeling of dread and charm) and Jund Control.
Has she really been that good for you? Every time I've tested her against Aggro 9 times out of 10 she's too slow. Simply, they ignore her 2/5 body and run through me while losing one blocker. GW running Champion of Lambholt doesn't care, Loxodon Smiter doesn't care, Silverblade Paladin doesn't care, Aristocrat doesn't care, Dreg Mangeler + Rancor doesn't care... What type of deck were you siding her in?
Thragtusk - yeah, he probably is a necessary evil in the sideboard. I wouldn't want him in any game I'm trying to grind out against a control deck though - which makes me not want him mainboard. I'm currently running 2 SB, have thought about upping that to 3.
Rootborn Defenses - I agree. I was testing only three main to give room for some more slots in the SB... but I want it back.
So, I run a lot less planeswalkers than you and run 3x GHM and 1x Thragtusk. (this might change soon), with these creatures trostani's lifegain is a lot more effective in my deck than yours.
Two games against Jund I was up over 40 life by turn 7.
A fun interaction is that anything that can beat through her body on the ground, selesnya charm can remove.
I havent tested her enough to be certain how good she is in practise against other decks. Will work on that.
And yeah... Rancor is a sick sick beating against tokens and there's nothing we can really do about it.
Ray of Revelation is also a pretty good card. Yes, it doesn't destroy rancor for good - but it'll def give you some turns as you can use it mid combat + FB the next turn.
I may try out your list for a few matches to see how yours plays. I feel that your deck is for more aggressive players, such as Yami. I do really enjoy it, and I'd be very much interested in playing it. As mine is a lot more grindy, however, I could see Vraska being a problem if we were to face. I mistyped myself regarding Vraska - I thought she was only good in the control matchup. After re-reading I apologize for the confusion. I've played with Sorin + Rancor before... It is actually fantastic and it means as long as you can trade profitably against an aggro deck and keep Sorin alive. You'll win. Rancor + 3/1 (or 4/2 lifelink) is actually silly. It's better than Thragtusk. I guess I'm not sold on Sigarda. I feel she doesn't... fit? our deck. That's not the right word, but I'm happy that she works for you. I feel she's a fantastic card against Jund, and maybe deserves a SB card - but maybe not main. Have you considered dropping Relentless or Sigarda for your third slip?
I 100% agree that your deck is strong, and very aggressive. I like it a lot. May I use it in my primer, credited of course as a basis for an aggressive version of the deck?
I would be happy to help out in the primer. I really do feel like this deck is really agressive, but it doesn't burn out and has a lot of resiliency. You can curve into crazyness and have sneaky instant speed spells to back it up. It has a really intuitive playstyle that I feel is powerful and fun.
I would hate to drop Sigarda because she's the perfect singleton. She can be tutored for, has evasion, and cannot be targeted. thats pretty good in our deck. I wouldn't want to run more but I'm always happy to see her. Garruk I wouldn't want to drop either because I like 6 walkers and 4x Sorin, LOI is too much. Garruk help pumps (worse) tokens which serves the same basic purpose at Sorins +1, while at the same time being able to sit back and wait to ping a creature. If you have a decent board presence he can usually survive to tutor Sigarda.
Going into an unknown meta, I would sb the 2 Rootborn Defenses that are now mb for 4 Tragic Slip. I feel slip is a lot more relevant in a lot of match-ups like Zombies, U/R Tempo, and all midrange decks, while Rootborn Defenses can end up a dead card more often then slip. I'd still sb them in for Bonfire/Mizzium decks and U/W/x and Grixis control decks, but mb Tragic slip I feel becomes a lot more helpful to have more control of the boardstate and make sure we dont get outclassed/can protect out walkers.
Mode some modifications after several matches on Cockatrice last night, tell me if you people think it needs any improvements. I'm focusing on speed and swift token production.
Take a look at the primer - let me know if that seems about right. I was missing a list I really liked that seemed aggressive. Yours dose and I believe it's a very strong approach to the deck. We'll have to see if the meta allows for the dorks to be played consistently. My only complaint about the deck is the lack of Call, but that's my own preference. I think those centaurs are too good to pass up - and prefer them to even Lingering Souls turn 2 followed by Intangible Virtue + FB Souls turn 3. The reasoning being is that I'm worried about the lively hood of the 1/1 spirits for a little bit. Plus, against certain decks that extra 1/1 PT from the centaur makes it an impassible barrier - with an IV a single centaur can be our 'creature that we ride to victory'. But, that's me.
Maybe I'm just bad at manabases, but how often do you think you can T1-T3 slip? Would you consider maybe a 2-3 slip/1-2 Sever the Bloodline split? Sever has better implications for the long game and against certain resilient decks whereas tragic is still good late game - just not as strong without exiling.
@ Bababouie
Your deck is similar to mine. Trading Rootbond for Druid's. I'm not sure I agree with this as Rootbond I believe has far more practical implications than a fog. It allows for combat indestructibly essentially acting as a sweep (or a fog against non-trampling blockers). However, it is one mana cheaper which makes it useful. You'll have to test it out to try. However, I wouldn't suggest running 23 lands with only 4 dorks and going for 2 6 drops and 1 5 drop and 2 essentially 6 drops (Vitu-Ghazi).
Agree that this is a solid deck, but my biggest concern about bringing it to states is it looks like a fairly bad matchup against zombies (the consensus deck to beat).
Tokens can be fairly fast, but it is not blistering fast. If you aren't playing defense against the blistering fast decks, you are hurting.
Call of the conclave is a total brick wall against zombies fast starts and if they dont have the right removal. It can easily stall them until turn 4-5.
Your 5 drops dont even seem that good against zombies either.
Strongly recommend testing this matchup a lot and see how it does. Potentially you hedging against it a bit more at states... And knight of glory is not a great answer imo. The 1 toughness hurts so much.
Agree that this is a solid deck, but my biggest concern about bringing it to states is it looks like a fairly bad matchup against zombies (the consensus deck to beat).
Tokens can be fairly fast, but it is not blistering fast. If you aren't playing defense against the blistering fast decks, you are hurting.
Call of the conclave is a total brick wall against zombies fast starts and if they dont have the right removal. It can easily stall them until turn 4-5.
Your 5 drops dont even seem that good against zombies either.
Strongly recommend testing this matchup a lot and see how it does. Potentially you hedging against it a bit more at states... And knight of glory is not a great answer imo. The 1 toughness hurts so much.
Knight of Glory used to be a fantastic answer. But, Golgari Charm solves Knight of Glory now. Which is fantastic in terms of card design, bad news for people planning to use Knight of Glory to beat zombies. Golgari Charm also is more effective against us if they plan on using that to kill KiG.
Agree that this is a solid deck, but my biggest concern about bringing it to states is it looks like a fairly bad matchup against zombies (the consensus deck to beat).
Tokens can be fairly fast, but it is not blistering fast. If you aren't playing defense against the blistering fast decks, you are hurting.
Call of the conclave is a total brick wall against zombies fast starts and if they dont have the right removal. It can easily stall them until turn 4-5.
Your 5 drops dont even seem that good against zombies either.
Strongly recommend testing this matchup a lot and see how it does. Potentially you hedging against it a bit more at states... And knight of glory is not a great answer imo. The 1 toughness hurts so much.
I respectfully disagree about the Zombies match-up, I like playing against zombies because I know every line they have and how to deal with everything. I'd say game 1 it's 60/40 us and then g2+g3 its atleast 65/35. Zombies has no way to deal with walkers (except dreadboard out of the side), and once we start popping vampires from Sorin or get Vault active, it's extremely difficult for them to recover. Charm and Rancor also help out a lot and allows us to trade profitably with a lot of their creatures. After sideboard, in mine there's around 10 cards to side in against them and seeing any of them gives them an EXTREMELY hard time. I'm also more then likely going to toss a Curse of Death's Hold in the sb once I finalize it. The deck has enough agressiveness to keep up with them while we subtly remove their threats until they run out of steam and were still putting on pressure. I haven't lost a lot of games against zombies. And yeah, Vraska comes out for Thragtusk for this match-up.
Take a look at the primer - let me know if that seems about right. I was missing a list I really liked that seemed aggressive. Yours dose and I believe it's a very strong approach to the deck. We'll have to see if the meta allows for the dorks to be played consistently. My only complaint about the deck is the lack of Call, but that's my own preference. I think those centaurs are too good to pass up - and prefer them to even Lingering Souls turn 2 followed by Intangible Virtue + FB Souls turn 3. The reasoning being is that I'm worried about the lively hood of the 1/1 spirits for a little bit. Plus, against certain decks that extra 1/1 PT from the centaur makes it an impassible barrier - with an IV a single centaur can be our 'creature that we ride to victory'. But, that's me.
Maybe I'm just bad at manabases, but how often do you think you can T1-T3 slip? Would you consider maybe a 2-3 slip/1-2 Sever the Bloodline split? Sever has better implications for the long game and against certain resilient decks whereas tragic is still good late game - just not as strong without exiling.
The list looks perfect, you just made a little typo with my username but thats it :). Another reason I'm not sure if i mentioned as to why I don't run Call is that it makes their spot removal better. Almost every token generator in the deck produces 2+ tokens which makes your opponents spot removal bad along with resilient creatures (Sigarda + Thragtusk) it's almost like they can't get ahead using spot removal.
I'd say pretty consistently hit t3 with swamp mana available. At worst T4, I almost am guaranteed to have a swamp by then without some out of the ordinary bad draws. The slips i dont usually use until that point anyways since I want to use them most effectively. I've never had a slip in my hand that I wanted to play but couldn't.
I haven't tested Sever MB yet, I can't see it being a terrible choice. I'd hate to go to 2 slips though so if you really wanted to use sever mb i'd run 1 main 1 side leaving in 3 slips. Slip is cheaper and instant speed which helps a lot more then you'd imagine, allows us to make better/multiple plays during one turn.
- Competitive Decks -
WU Venser Allies WU
WR Battlecry Metalcraft WR
GWB Junk Tokens GWB
"Let's roll him down the stairs!"
- Jacob
The only way that versatility doesn't make a deck stronger is if the added versatility makes the deck more inconsistent. I don't believe that splashing black makes the deck inconsistent. I'd highly suggest that you take a look at trying black. Sorin is insane. Lingering Souls is insane.
If you don't want to run GWb - that's fine. But, the raw advantage you get from those two cards seriously can't be argued, logically at least. Preference wise or playstyle wise, GW can be argued. Wayfaring and Precinct turn the deck into a different deck than the lists in here.
Edit: I also commented on your thread
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
The other was a game that I had to mulligan down to 4 with no good cards in hand against GB zombies. I ended up being able to stall with a 3/3 Centaur because he was stuck on two lands and couldn't use Dreg Mangler or Geralf. I stabilized at 4 life. I played Vitu turned 3 and started populating turn 4. I only drew one other token generator that game, it was a Sorin. After a few turns Vitu won the game with a simple -2 Emblem. Fantastic card...
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
Play tested my Junk tokens list against U/R Delver and Jund ramp.
Crushed delver 3-0 (he drew bad), and split 3-3 vs jund.
Jund had sideboarded against my deck, but I didnt sideboard against his.
Huntmaster of the fells with instant speed shenagins was a huge huge beating.
And (unspurpringly) so is golgari charm.
We definitly will be losing the sideboard battle against golgari based decks. My opponent had 3x golgari charms in his sideboard, and it was really rough.
Overall think we have a losing matchup against Jund ramp.
Bonfire, golgari charm , abrubt decay (gg intangible virtue), overloaded mizzium morders. Dreadbore against Trostani/Planeswalkers. Holding onto some rootborn defenses or dont want to overcommit? Ugh rakdos returns to screw up your plan.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
1. When people sideboard against Junk Tokens, They will probably be hating on swarms of 1/1 creatures and enchantments. This should shape your sideboarding strategy. You should have the option to sideboard into a fatter, more resilient deck.
I currently run 3x Geist Honored monks in the main deck, but am going to be sideboarding her out a lot.
I think she is the most synergistic 5 drop in our deck, but against decks that can "hate" on our anthems AND swarms, she is quite poor. This gets magnified when they hit the sideboard.
In those circumstances she loses a LOT of of her power.
Midnight haunting becomes a lot worse.
I would sideboard out arbor elf against some decks too
Note: Im not saying sideboard your core cards (despite them being worse).
2. Between main deck and sideboard Trostani MUST be a 3+ of.
3. Between main deck and sideboard Rootborn MUST be a 4 of.
4. Between your main deck and your sideboard Thragtusk LIKELY is a 3 of.
5. Your sideboard should contain at least 2 Sundering growths for U/W/x Control , decks that use gilded lotus and the mirror match. Gimme back my planeswalker plz!
Trostani:
Unreal against some decks. Dead against others.
Dreadbore , wraths and excessive bounce is her main enemy.
Against agro she is our best card. Against decks without many ways to deal 5 damage to target creature or "kill target creature", she is INSANE.
Main decking her is meta dependent.
Rootborn defenses:
I had it as a 2 of maindeck, but in most metas I think its likely a 3 of. If you only run 3, the 4th is also a sideboard mandatory card. In the matches where it's at its worst, it's only slightly below curve. In matches where it's at it's best, it's NECESSARY.
Giving you less creatures to populate and hurting some opening hands, means im hesitant to run 4 main, but it may be correct.
2x Overloaded Mizzium mortars and a hardcasted bonfire for 2 from Jund ramp list changed half my playtesting games from a very dominating board position to a GG FML u win.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
I'm interested to see your current list if you don't mind.
I do agree on your analysis that people will first try to hate out enchantments and 1/1 creatures, because of this they will be dropping their spot removal. We need to take advantage of this - as it essentially works in our favour. Thragtusk is the perfect card to fill this role. We may also want to consider Odric (to help our tokens get through as they won't be as powerful), Wild Beastmaster, Elder of Laurals or Entreat the Angels. I'm trying to contemplate other high-powered single cards that work with token strategies. I'll think about this today. However, I've found that running both Sorin and Garruk Primal Hunter that I am much more resilient to Jund's or UWx sweepers. What I mean to say is this, if I have Rootbond in hand my swarm is fine - if I don't then it takes a few turns to get my board back. Of course I've been play testing against Jund Control/Ramp and not a Jund Aggro deck (that isn't Zombies).
Has she really been that good for you? Every time I've tested her against Aggro 9 times out of 10 she's too slow. Simply, they ignore her 2/5 body and run through me while losing one blocker. GW running Champion of Lambholt doesn't care, Loxodon Smiter doesn't care, Silverblade Paladin doesn't care, Aristocrat doesn't care, Dreg Mangeler + Rancor doesn't care... What type of deck were you siding her in?
Thragtusk - yeah, he probably is a necessary evil in the sideboard. I wouldn't want him in any game I'm trying to grind out against a control deck though - which makes me not want him mainboard. I'm currently running 2 SB, have thought about upping that to 3.
Rootborn Defenses - I agree. I was testing only three main to give room for some more slots in the SB... but I want it back.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
I do believe that you can make this deck quite fast. I've taken for more of the grindy approach myself - which I should probably assess. I think with the grindy aspect we can both have a good match against aggressive and a somewhat good match against hyperaggressive match ups while still having somewhat of a good match against control. It seems the best of all worlds. However, if you want to speed the deck up I'd go no higher than 5 CMC. Maybe with Predatory Rampage or Revenge of the Hunted at the top of your list. The problem I have with this is that decks are essentially going to be more midrange - and if we don't have a way of playing the midrange game we're simply going to lose to things that get bigger than us. Hence why I fell in love with Collective Blessing.
I still feel, however, that you can tune this deck to be fast, hard and efficient. Rancors, Doomed Travelers, LS, Haunting, maybe even Runechanter's Pike (since we use a lot of instants), followed with a few Revenge of the Hunteds and your army has just become threatening.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
This is the list I have been testing the last 2 weeks ago:
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
3x Arbor Elf
1x Sigarda Host of Herons
Enchantments:
4x Intangible Virtue
3x Rancor
Instants:
4x Midnight Haunting
4x Selensya Charm
2x Tragic Slip
2x Rootborn Defenses
Sorceries:
4x Lingering Souls
Planeswalkers:
3x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1x Garruk Relentless
2x Vraska the Unseen
4x Temple Garden
4x Overgrown Tomb
3x Woodland Cemetary
3x Sunpetal Grove
2x Isoated Chapel
3x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Vault of the Archangel
3 Knight of Glory
2 Thragtusk
2 Rest in Peace
2 Duress
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Sundering Growth
1 Trostani
1 Tragic Slip
1 Tribute to Hunger
1 Sever the Bloodline
In case you guys are curious about a few of my card choices.
Mainboard:
2x Tragic slip: I originally has this as a 3-of but I ended up adding rootborn defenses MB so I put one in the SB. This card really helps to remove threats and cards that can stop our deck dead. Cards i've hit with tragic slip: Restoration Angel, Sublime Archangel, Wolfrir Silverheart, Thundermaw Hellkite, any 1 toughness dudes with rancors. Still debating whether 3 MB is better, more testing will help, it's been so good i had a hard time justifying cutting down to 2.
2x Rootborn Defenses: I originally had 3 MB but then realized a lot of match-ups when I would draw it that it was essentially a dead-card. Either never had the mana open when my opponent would sweep (Since were always trying to keep pressure) or it would just sit in my hand and do nothing because no sweepers were drawn. I'm debating putting all 3 in the SB to add more removal MB. Either 2x Decay or 2x Tragic Slip, still not sure what would be best, currently leaning more towards slip.
2x Vraska, the Unseen: This woman is a house and has won games for me more then a few times. Everyone says she is sb material but I vehemently disagree. Either you have tokens out so you can keep +ing her all day, your behind and your opponent dropped his win-con and she comes in and blows it up, you + her twice and your opponent is so far behind because you can either have 3 auto-win tokens or 2 Vindicates on a stick. I almost always play her as a Vindicate on a stick. Cannot tell you how many time's i've had Sorin + Her out and no matter how many boardwipes Sorin would just keep pumping tokens, I'd gain life, and Vraska would just tick up until anything my opponent would play i would just blow up.
There are a few match-ups where she's not the best card to drop but she is hardly ever bad. She still serves a purpose game 1 in these types of match-ups and then g2+3 I remove her for the 2x Thragtusk in the sb.
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons: The one tutor target for Garruk in the deck. I'm hardly ever sad to draw her. Her p/t lets you block profitably with a lot of creatures and you dont have to worry about her taking damage and then getting slipped or burnt out because hexproof. She's not PHENOMINAL, but she does help stabilize and if you managed to put on early pressure she can close out games quickly, especially if you have a few spirit tokens. As 1-of she serves her purpose well.
Sideboard:
3 Knight of Glory: Eats zombies for breakfast
2 Thragtusk: Replaces Vraska in sub-optimal matchups
2 Rest in Peace: Comes in for delver/zombies
2 Duress: Rips cards like Supreme Verdict and Mizzium Mortars out of our opponents hands
1 Abrupt Decay: More removal to hit annyoing things like Electromancers, Delvers, Loxodon Smiter, any zombie, and a lot of Rakdos creatures
1 Sundering Growth: Only piece of artifact removal sb, comes in for Runechanter's Pike decks and mirror match for enchantment removal.
1 Trostani: Zombies hate this card
1 Tragic Slip: More versitile removal which is relevant in a lot of match-ups
1 Tribute to Hunger: hits Geist of St. Traft if he's alone or even Desecrator Demon against control decks.
1 Sever the Bloodline : I love this card, exiles MULTIPLE gravecrawlers or MULTIPLE geralfs which sets Zombie players back so far its almost impossible to recover.
Things i refuse to give up: Mana dorks. This deck I feel simply is not as aggressive without them. T2 Souls/haunting/charm+rancor into t3 Sorin/Garruk is insanely aggressive and I notice a lot of decks have a hard time keeping up, especially if were on the play. Half the reason I'm playing Junk over Esper is due to mana dorks and the amount of speed they give our deck. This along with rancor makes our deck insane and really puts the opponent under the gun. Did I mention how awesome Rancor is on Sorin's tokens?
Overall, I feel like my MB is almost as tight as it can get. Once I make the tragic slip/rootborn decision it will be pretty much finalized. The sb will obviously change as i test more and see which decks are obviously more popular then others, and then tune the sb accordingly. Right now though the sb is pretty decent and I have a solid amount of cards to side-in for most match-ups. B/W tokens was my favorite deck this last season, Junk tokens feels like an OP version of the original, and I like it. I'll be playing this deck at states and the tcgplayer 5k in Hartford the week after rotation, that's how sure I am that this deck is the real deal.
Standard:
GBWAggressive Junk TokensGBW
"Some convictions are so strong that the world must break to accommodate them."
I'm extremely surprised with your lack of Call of the Conclave. Can you give me your reasoning? I'll respond to your overall deck in a few. I think it's interesting and have a few questions as to your reasonings. None though as much as the lack of Call.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
I don't play call because there is simply no room. I had it in the deck during my first iteration of the deck I tested and it just didn't feel as good as it should have. First of all it's sorcery speed, I'd rather play charm for this very reason, plus the multiple uses it can have. Second, the token has no evasion and usually just plays the role as chumper or gets removed via unsummon. Third, 9/10 times I have 3 mana t2, which at that point I am more inclined to drop my evasive fliers. Call kindof just doesnt fit the curve of my deck, if I were to drop to 0 dorks, I would 100% play Call. But simply with the dorks i have no room to fit the card in and the 2-drop spot on the curve gets skipped more often then not. I just can't look at my decklist and justify taking anything out for Call, it's already too tight of a list.
Standard:
GBWAggressive Junk TokensGBW
"Some convictions are so strong that the world must break to accommodate them."
That's a fair answer, as much as I disagree that replacing Call is the rigt approach. I understand your dedication to the mana dorks as they give you some consistency to ramp into turn 3 and also allows you to use your higher curve to your advantage. However, after play testing against Jund/GB zombies or simply any deck that has access black or red I've been noticing that my dorks still aren't living as consistently as I'd like them too. Last Standard was obviously worse with Gut Shot, however with Rakdos colours being strong in this set turn 1 removal is still extemely prevelant. Essentially I wanted to ask, how badly are you hampered by losing your dork, and do you feel the risk is worth it? One of my major considerations to dropping my Dorks to 4 and adding Call/Vitu is that I'm not as hampered if I do lose a dork, or if I don't have one in hand for turn 1. Maybe it's my susceptibility to ramp but I've never enjoyed having to mulligan because I didn't have a dork in my hand followed by a turn 3 play.
I like your walker count, a lot. Sorin is a total boss and Relentless, while not optimal, has to be respected. Vraska is still an interesting debate. May I ask what decks you feel she underperformed and which she is an all-star. The reason I ask, is hat from my limited testing with her (only one copy in the SB) she is useful against control. She obviously had weak matchups, but what do you find that you are vindicating more often?
The slips and the Rancors are good suggestions, especially if you can keep your field safe from sweeps. The reason I cut mine was that I felt I'd either too many support spells with no beef or no support spells. I decided to go for beef, with the only necessary card being Defenses and Charm. All-in-all whats your confidence or trust level in these or do question these cards at times?
No Gavony? Why? Especially with losing bigger token cards, do you miss this sometimes?
I really like that youve chosen Sever in the SB. I feel this card is insane in black and will be a house for our deck. Your sideboard seems like a mess, but that's to be expected without a meta to analyze.
Sorry if it seemed I ask a lot of questions, I'm just really interested in the analytical reasoning behind people's choices. I like your deck - I feel it achieves what it wants to do. However, I'm worried about its safety against sweepers without the bigger token generators and the large support buff from collective blessing.
Have you considered Sublime Archangel over sigarda?
PS: Sorry about the formatting or lack of tags. On phone.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
While getting my dork removed does suck, it's really not the WORST thing to happen. Usually i have a Virtue or Charm I can play so while it makes the deck lose a bit of tempo it's not game-ending. The amount of speed the dorks provide when they aren't removed more then compensates for the few times they get removed, because the deck still runs 8 2-drops which makes sure you still have plays.
Vraska is sub-optimal against zombies and tempo decks (This is when thragtusk comes in g2+3). Again, not BAD, as she still comes down and hits anything, it's simply suboptimal because Zombies has recurring threats and tempo just has cheap costing creatures which makes her -3 feel bad, but her abilities are better used (and amazing) in the mid-range/control match-ups. Mid-range she hits all the fat beaters/fliers that would give us problems while we swing in the sky, and against control she hits Planeswalkers/Nighthawk/Desecrator Demon etc. I'm surprised you think shes bad in the control match up, because with the limited win-cons they have I find her to be devastating. It's not hard to keep building her to pop her -3 atleast 3 times in the midrange match-up with all our tokens we have to buy time (and while swinging if virtue is out).
I wouldn't cut the Rancors and Slips for anything else. Our deck has no answers to cards that simply outclass ours, and tragic slip gives us the ability to take care of this problem by simply chump blocking. Resto angel gives me a LOT of problems without slip, that's why I mention in my post I want 3 MB, it's just that good so we can keep removing threats while we keep adding pressure on the board. Rancor, again, I would not cut this for anything. In games where we might not have the optimal hand it really helps us keep pressure by being able to keep up with the beats so when we stabilize we can win quickly. The synergy between Rancor and Sorin's tokens is insane against aggro decks. It just set's them so far behind when you keep churning tokens and every chump your gaining 3, and then you just keep re-enchanting. With virtue they're 4/2's, I love this boardstate. Also, Rancor on opponents creature in order to Charm it is more then a cute play, it's a really effective. I have done this play on Geralfs that already have the +1/+1 counter, Resto angels, etc. It just adds another synergy/angle at which you can play the deck.
IMO Vault > Gavony. Aggro decks simply fold once Vault is online. You're either swinging and gaining life or blocking, destroying their dudes, AND gaining life. I almost never lose a game once vaults online, it allows me to pretty much run away with the game. I've been down 16 to 8, gotten vault online, swung for 8 to COMPLETELY flip the life totals, and then win the turn after. Vault changes the tide of the game drastically and leads to blowouts. Gavony while good, is more gradual and grindy, while vault is aggressive and makes you opponent think twice before blocking or swinging.
I dont play Blessing because I feel like Sorin + Virtue do a well enough job of buffing our creatures and I'd rather have Vraska to gelp control the board in the mid/late game. With the Rancor's as well it's not hard to close up the game before Blessing would even be relevant.
I like Sigarda more then Sublime because of hexproof. Since we play very few ACTUAL creatures, it's very likely by the time you drop these creatures your opponent is sitting on spot removal. If you drop Sublime, the opponent will remove it every time. Sigarda makes the spot removal dead in his hand and he'll end up wasting it on a token which is what I want my opponent to do. I invite you to play a few games on cockatrice with the deck, you'll find the it has a TON of good match-ups, and the bad/okay ones (of which there are few) become good ones after sideboard.
Standard:
GBWAggressive Junk TokensGBW
"Some convictions are so strong that the world must break to accommodate them."
I may try out your list for a few matches to see how yours plays. I feel that your deck is for more aggressive players, such as Yami. I do really enjoy it, and I'd be very much interested in playing it. As mine is a lot more grindy, however, I could see Vraska being a problem if we were to face. I mistyped myself regarding Vraska - I thought she was only good in the control matchup. After re-reading I apologize for the confusion. I've played with Sorin + Rancor before... It is actually fantastic and it means as long as you can trade profitably against an aggro deck and keep Sorin alive. You'll win. Rancor + 3/1 (or 4/2 lifelink) is actually silly. It's better than Thragtusk. I guess I'm not sold on Sigarda. I feel she doesn't... fit? our deck. That's not the right word, but I'm happy that she works for you. I feel she's a fantastic card against Jund, and maybe deserves a SB card - but maybe not main. Have you considered dropping Relentless or Sigarda for your third slip?
I 100% agree that your deck is strong, and very aggressive. I like it a lot. May I use it in my primer, credited of course as a basis for an aggressive version of the deck?
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
My H/W list
I really like his list as well. Personally, as someone who isn't a fan of Relentless I find his tutoring ability rather lackluster. I'd much prefer putting an Entreat the Angels in Sigarda's or Armada Wurm's place. However, I do understand the relevance of it. Yet, with only a few relentless and the amount of turns it takes to flip him and tutor... it may not be worth it. I mean, at most - he'd be able to fight something that's a 1 power creature. Tutor the next turn without losing him, and then play it. That's okay. Chances are - he won't have a good fight target or it'll be at least 2 power, which means you'll be losing your walker, a creature for a card. That doesn't sound like good value to me :/ Even if the creature is Armada Wurm. Or, if we were going the aggressive route - Geist-Honoured Monk. She fits our curve better non-tutored. Sigarda just seems clunky, slow and useful against only specific matchups UWx Detain/Control (go away feeling of dread and charm) and Jund Control.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
So, I run a lot less planeswalkers than you and run 3x GHM and 1x Thragtusk. (this might change soon), with these creatures trostani's lifegain is a lot more effective in my deck than yours.
Two games against Jund I was up over 40 life by turn 7.
A fun interaction is that anything that can beat through her body on the ground, selesnya charm can remove.
I havent tested her enough to be certain how good she is in practise against other decks. Will work on that.
And yeah... Rancor is a sick sick beating against tokens and there's nothing we can really do about it.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
I would be happy to help out in the primer. I really do feel like this deck is really agressive, but it doesn't burn out and has a lot of resiliency. You can curve into crazyness and have sneaky instant speed spells to back it up. It has a really intuitive playstyle that I feel is powerful and fun.
I would hate to drop Sigarda because she's the perfect singleton. She can be tutored for, has evasion, and cannot be targeted. thats pretty good in our deck. I wouldn't want to run more but I'm always happy to see her. Garruk I wouldn't want to drop either because I like 6 walkers and 4x Sorin, LOI is too much. Garruk help pumps (worse) tokens which serves the same basic purpose at Sorins +1, while at the same time being able to sit back and wait to ping a creature. If you have a decent board presence he can usually survive to tutor Sigarda.
Going into an unknown meta, I would sb the 2 Rootborn Defenses that are now mb for 4 Tragic Slip. I feel slip is a lot more relevant in a lot of match-ups like Zombies, U/R Tempo, and all midrange decks, while Rootborn Defenses can end up a dead card more often then slip. I'd still sb them in for Bonfire/Mizzium decks and U/W/x and Grixis control decks, but mb Tragic slip I feel becomes a lot more helpful to have more control of the boardstate and make sure we dont get outclassed/can protect out walkers.
If the 5k were tomorrow, this is what I'd bring:
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
3x Arbor Elf
1x Sigarda Host of Herons
Enchantments:
4x Intangible Virtue
3x Rancor
Instants:
4x Midnight Haunting
4x Selensya Charm
4x Tragic Slip
Sorceries:
4x Lingering Souls
Planeswalkers:
3x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1x Garruk Relentless
2x Vraska the Unseen
4x Temple Garden
4x Overgrown Tomb
3x Woodland Cemetary
3x Sunpetal Grove
2x Isoated Chapel
3x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Vault of the Archangel
3 Knight of Glory
3 Rootborn Defenses
2 Thragtusk
2 Rest in Peace
2 Duress
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Trostani
1 Sever the Bloodline
Standard:
GBWAggressive Junk TokensGBW
"Some convictions are so strong that the world must break to accommodate them."
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
2x Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
// INSTANT (12)
4x Druid's Deliverance
4x Selesnya Charm
4x Midnight Haunting
// SORCERY (8)
4x Call of the Conclave
4x Lingering Souls
// ENCHANTMENT (6)
4x Intangiable Virtue
2x Collective Blessing
// PLANESWALKERS (5)
2x Garruk Relentless
2x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
4x Sunpetal Grove
3x Isolated Chapel
4x Temple Garden
3x Overgrown Tomb
3x Plains
3x Forest
1x Swamp
2x Gavony Township
3x Tragic Slip
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Sundering Growth
1x Grove of the Guardian
2x Vault of the Archangel
1x Odric, Master Tactician
1x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
Mode some modifications after several matches on Cockatrice last night, tell me if you people think it needs any improvements. I'm focusing on speed and swift token production.
- Competitive Decks -
WU Venser Allies WU
WR Battlecry Metalcraft WR
GWB Junk Tokens GWB
"Let's roll him down the stairs!"
- Jacob
Take a look at the primer - let me know if that seems about right. I was missing a list I really liked that seemed aggressive. Yours dose and I believe it's a very strong approach to the deck. We'll have to see if the meta allows for the dorks to be played consistently. My only complaint about the deck is the lack of Call, but that's my own preference. I think those centaurs are too good to pass up - and prefer them to even Lingering Souls turn 2 followed by Intangible Virtue + FB Souls turn 3. The reasoning being is that I'm worried about the lively hood of the 1/1 spirits for a little bit. Plus, against certain decks that extra 1/1 PT from the centaur makes it an impassible barrier - with an IV a single centaur can be our 'creature that we ride to victory'. But, that's me.
Maybe I'm just bad at manabases, but how often do you think you can T1-T3 slip? Would you consider maybe a 2-3 slip/1-2 Sever the Bloodline split? Sever has better implications for the long game and against certain resilient decks whereas tragic is still good late game - just not as strong without exiling.
@ Bababouie
Your deck is similar to mine. Trading Rootbond for Druid's. I'm not sure I agree with this as Rootbond I believe has far more practical implications than a fog. It allows for combat indestructibly essentially acting as a sweep (or a fog against non-trampling blockers). However, it is one mana cheaper which makes it useful. You'll have to test it out to try. However, I wouldn't suggest running 23 lands with only 4 dorks and going for 2 6 drops and 1 5 drop and 2 essentially 6 drops (Vitu-Ghazi).
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
3 Avacyn’s Pilgrim
3 Arbor Elf
2 Armada Wurm
Instants: 6
2 Tragic Slip
2 Selesnya Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
Sorceries: 8
2 Call of the Conclave
4 Lingering Souls
2 Entreat the Angels
Enchantments: 9
3 Rancor
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Collective Blessing
2 Soring, Lord of Innistrad
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Vraska the Unseen
Lands: 24
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple Garden
3 Sunpetal Grove
2 Isolated Chapel
2 Gavony Township
2 Vault of the Archangel
2 Sundering Growth
2 Thragtusk
2 Terminus
2 Golgari Charm
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
2 Rootbound Defense
2 Sigarda, Host of the Herons
-Elite Inquisitor
Agree that this is a solid deck, but my biggest concern about bringing it to states is it looks like a fairly bad matchup against zombies (the consensus deck to beat).
Tokens can be fairly fast, but it is not blistering fast. If you aren't playing defense against the blistering fast decks, you are hurting.
Call of the conclave is a total brick wall against zombies fast starts and if they dont have the right removal. It can easily stall them until turn 4-5.
Your 5 drops dont even seem that good against zombies either.
Strongly recommend testing this matchup a lot and see how it does. Potentially you hedging against it a bit more at states... And knight of glory is not a great answer imo. The 1 toughness hurts so much.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Knight of Glory used to be a fantastic answer. But, Golgari Charm solves Knight of Glory now. Which is fantastic in terms of card design, bad news for people planning to use Knight of Glory to beat zombies. Golgari Charm also is more effective against us if they plan on using that to kill KiG.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
I respectfully disagree about the Zombies match-up, I like playing against zombies because I know every line they have and how to deal with everything. I'd say game 1 it's 60/40 us and then g2+g3 its atleast 65/35. Zombies has no way to deal with walkers (except dreadboard out of the side), and once we start popping vampires from Sorin or get Vault active, it's extremely difficult for them to recover. Charm and Rancor also help out a lot and allows us to trade profitably with a lot of their creatures. After sideboard, in mine there's around 10 cards to side in against them and seeing any of them gives them an EXTREMELY hard time. I'm also more then likely going to toss a Curse of Death's Hold in the sb once I finalize it. The deck has enough agressiveness to keep up with them while we subtly remove their threats until they run out of steam and were still putting on pressure. I haven't lost a lot of games against zombies. And yeah, Vraska comes out for Thragtusk for this match-up.
The list looks perfect, you just made a little typo with my username but thats it :). Another reason I'm not sure if i mentioned as to why I don't run Call is that it makes their spot removal better. Almost every token generator in the deck produces 2+ tokens which makes your opponents spot removal bad along with resilient creatures (Sigarda + Thragtusk) it's almost like they can't get ahead using spot removal.
I'd say pretty consistently hit t3 with swamp mana available. At worst T4, I almost am guaranteed to have a swamp by then without some out of the ordinary bad draws. The slips i dont usually use until that point anyways since I want to use them most effectively. I've never had a slip in my hand that I wanted to play but couldn't.
I haven't tested Sever MB yet, I can't see it being a terrible choice. I'd hate to go to 2 slips though so if you really wanted to use sever mb i'd run 1 main 1 side leaving in 3 slips. Slip is cheaper and instant speed which helps a lot more then you'd imagine, allows us to make better/multiple plays during one turn.
Standard:
GBWAggressive Junk TokensGBW
"Some convictions are so strong that the world must break to accommodate them."