Well, that is fine. My biggest issue is that the punishment exceeds what was described.
We were warned:
Not an insta-ban/auto-suspension offense, you know?
Every single person tagged for this thing posted multiple times after their initial posts and threads were deleted. That is a lot more than just 'posting about the Curse deal.' When a mod deletes what you wrote you don't go and post it again.
I'd just like to say that this is a privately owned site and the owners and caretakers there-of can take any action contained in the site for any reason at any time. Whether or not it violates set precedent or other site policies does not matter because this website is a service offered at no expense to the public as a privilege.
So, in summary, MTGS is a business, it only cares about the bottom line. It will take any action it deems fit against any users it sees fit because there is no recourse against said actions because the majority of MTGS have no idea about anything that is ever going on and they don't understand why they should care.
MTGS does not care about its forum users. Some of the staff might but overall, the leadership of this site could care less about people's feelings, moral objectivity or the continued existence of this community as we know it.
Apparently, the owners would like to wipe their hands of this site and collect their check, much as every business eventually does. If the site finds itself with a new name, new staff and new users - it's all the same to them - as long as that money keeps coming.
The only recourse people really have is to not use the site. In which case, it will simply be re-branded, it's resources allocated to other parts of business and the staff will move along.
Honestly, to really believe that in a world thriving almost purely off of endless greed that we, as forum users, actually matter to anyone is pure fallacy. We are nothing to the owner of this site except a number to be quoted, we are merely another variable in his calculation of wealth.
So enjoy fighting for your rights and perception of morality because I'm here to tell you - neither of those things exist and it is a fight which cannot be won.
And now, I am going to go do what most people do with this site. Browse through the spoiler, read a terribly written article, poke into the rumor mill to see some shameless fakes, read people calling each other idiots for their card evaluation skills and then call it a day. My only regret is that there isn't anyone left in the Gutter to post something very offensive so I can have a laugh.
See you all around, hope you find a meaningful conclusion to whatever fresh hell this is.
What? MTGS doesn't make any money as far as I'm aware. It probably will under Curse because they can probably draw more lucrative advertisments and traffic than a random private site, but MTGS has always existed for the community and the community has always been the top priority barring times in our history where individuals have acted out of line.
What? MTGS doesn't make any money as far as I'm aware. It probably will under Curse because they can probably draw more lucrative advertisments and traffic than a random private site, but MTGS has always existed for the community and the community has always been the top priority barring times in our history where individuals have acted out of line.
I can believe what you post about his original intentions, however, it is very naive to believe any man acts for reasons that are not to his gain. He has grown tired of his toy.
Otherwise, it wouldn't have been such a big deal if the deal fell through.
Anyway, talk among yourselves. I've sat here since I've been a member and seen nothing but pathetic drivel come out of CI. Lies and the illusion of a greater purpose are all I see in Admin/User relations just like everywhere else.
In all honesty, it was exciting at first, now it just seems like what people do on internet forums - gripe, gripe, whine, gripe and defend the owner.
Yup, that's pretty much everywhere.
I think I am done with forums, I am pretty disenchanted with this site over the last year I've been here. There is always drama and people handling issues with users unfairly or heavy handedly.
Also, btw, if you don't want news of a sale to get out why the hell would you tell a whole mess of people and then expect it to never get out.
That's like giving a toddler matches and then complaining about how he burnt down your house.
No, Belgareth & Talore are right. Like Belgareth (both of us are former admins), I've talked with Hannes many times and know that he has 100% the community in mind, and that MTGS is actually a net zero at best for him.
I know what you mean Sene and I've seen it all before. I used to play (and be a high level administrator) on a very popular Graphical-MUD way back in the day. The owner was one of the nicest people I've ever met, donating his time and energy to grow his game, the community and the large forum that was with the game. We all had no doubt in his sincerity and that the game made little to no money - just enough to keep itself going.
Where is that game? Oh, at the height of its popularity he found that money was more important. He ended up selling rare equipment he could produce and sell it for real cash - ruining the economy on the game. Then, once users had heard of what he was doing, he insisted it was good for the game by getting it extra flows of cash (into his pocket). Later, he shut the game down with no notice, emptied all of the accounts that kept the game going and took his ball and went home.
Even those with the best intentions eventually turn to the almighty dollar. I knew, absolutely knew, who this person was and their love of the game they had created. Yet, when it really came down to it, it was too much trouble to be worth it and it faded away overnight - along with all of the funding.
So, yeah, don't trust anyone you have never met in person.
Otherwise, it wouldn't have been such a big deal if the deal fell through.
It would be a big deal because this is a deal that would be beneficial to the community instead of harmful, and because it would remove what is (I'm sure) a major source of stress in his life that gives him no financial gain. This has come up again and again over the years, and I can tell you straight-up; the only thing he's getting out of this site is that the default for the card tags is magiccards.info.
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Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
The answer: because it is worth something. It is a brand, it may not make him money but it will make someone money and, thus, he cannot part with it out of simple good will.
Hell, the domain name itself with all of its recognition is likely worth tens of thousands of dollars to the right gaming aggregation site.
It really all does boil down to money.
Do you really believe that, after he receives his check, if MTGS is no more that he will shed a single tear?
A few reasons:
1. He wants to make sure that whoever he gives it to has the sites interest in mind. Forcing a potential taker to pay some amount of money keeps random joe bob from coming in and taking the site with no experience in running it. By making someone pay, you know that they have a vested interest in the site that goes beyond how much the paid for it.
2. He wants to get something out of it, and I personally have no issues with that, he created a community. He should get a reward.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
I'd rather trust Hannes and the community than live in a state of paranoia.
Seriously, though, this is quite the tangent from the actual topic of this thread, which is the discussion of the bannings.
Somebody earlier requested that I give my opinion, as I kind of said I would do so earlier.
Well, I'm sitting in a review session for some good ol' macroeconomic theory (in the context of asian economies—very interesting), but I'll give some thoughts when I get out.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Because he wants it to survive. Because it's worth something. I have no idea how much it's worth, but I know that he's turned down a lot of offers because those potential buyers were not seen to be "a good fit" for the cimmunity. Curse IS a good fit according to him and that's why he is selling to them.
I have a feeling nothing we can say will change your mind though... because internet.
Why? Profit isn't the motive here; he's gotten big offers in the past and turned them down. Some little bit of money to him is a nice plus for the large amounts of money he's invested in this site over the last seven years. But if the staff had thought this was a bad deal for the users, we could (and would!) have scuttled it.
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Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
It also boils down to being responsible with your assets. Giving away the site would be irresponsible, and so would doing anything to hurt the community (even if all that does is lower the site's value).
All I am saying is that - regardless of the assurances of any buyer, once they have the site in hand, they could easily turn it into a phishing site and there isn't a single thing anyone, anywhere can do about it.
I guarantee you that is how it will be and that is what will likely happen.
First thing I would do is fire all of the staff, appoint my own internal staff and rebuild this forum from the ground up.
Then, practically, MTGS is dead.
But yes, this is off topic and I will take my leave.
P.S.
"I have a feeling nothing we can say will change your mind though... because internet."
LoL, isn't that so sadly true?
All I am saying is that - regardless of the assurances of any buyer. Once they have the site in hand, they could easily turn it into a phishing site and there isn't a single thing anyone, anywhere can do about it.
I guarantee you that is how it will be and that is what will likely happen.
First thing I would do is fire all of the staff, appoint my own internal staff and rebuild this forum from the ground up.
Then, practically, MTGS is dead.
But yes, this is off topic and I will take my leave.
Yes, that is exactly what curse will do, like they have done with every other site they have acquired (and by that I mean the 8 or so gaming websites that they bought and currently own and operate).
There's a difference between fear and conspiracy. You're arguing from the assumption that the least likely occurrence will happen.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
I didn't mean THAT would happen.. though... now, reading what i wrote, it does seem like that's what I said.
I mean, once it is outside of his hands who knows what is going to happen. These Curse people could easily shut it down and absorb the domain and the server resources. However, looking at who they are now, it seems they might do some good for the site.
However, this outside company could really care less about any of us. Once this site shows a net of zero from this acquisition, well, start writing your goodbye posts.
Now, on topic before I go, I find the bannings to be silly because of the public availability of the unsubstantiated rumor at the time.
However, it really doesn't matter what anyone thinks, there will be no exodus as a result of these bannings - unfair or not.
No-one of particular interest would also care about the Gutter closing. Sure, some people would notice and some of them leave. They will be replaced in hours, regardless their position of community influence. That's just how it is.
What you all really need to concentrate on is applying your rules and policies evenly and stopping those knee jerk reactions. Otherwise, we are going to have to listen to whining in here about it for the rest of the sites existence.
Any who, you all are much more qualified to deal with this stuff that I am and, honestly, after my previous rant I have lost the will to care.
All I am saying is that - regardless of the assurances of any buyer, once they have the site in hand, they could easily turn it into a phishing site and there isn't a single thing anyone, anywhere can do about it.
Strictly speaking, that same logic could also be used to justify the argument that Hannes will just up and put malware into the site too. It's an appeal to ignorance along with an appeal to consequences, which are logical fallacies. That we don't know for absolute sure that Curse won't do that doesn't really matter. It's reasonable to believe, based upon past performance with similar sites, that their ownership of this site will be exemplary.
Then, practically, MTGS is dead.
It wouldn't make sense for someone to spend all the time, effort, and money to acquire this site, only to run it irresponsibly and wind up killing it.
Now, on topic before I go, I find the bannings to be silly because of the public availability of the unsubstantiated rumor at the time.
That this information was available to the public is less relevant than the fact that the staff couldn't afford for it to become widely available, especially on this site. Harmful rumours such as "the Gutter is being closed" or "the Rumour Mill will die off" can and have caused people to quit the site, which is very real damage to the community. Imagine if those rumours spread much more pervasively at a time when the staff had little to no information to go on. That would have been disastrous.
Every single person tagged for this thing posted multiple times after their initial posts and threads were deleted. That is a lot more than just 'posting about the Curse deal.' When a mod deletes what you wrote you don't go and post it again.
I'm specifically referring to NS. Everyone else knew what was going to happen after the precedent set by NS's banning.
But NS shouldn't have been banned in the first place. He should have been infracted. That was the punishment as it was spelled out to us.
I haven't been able to talk about it because I chose to follow the gag order.
Who "stole" anything? All this person did was give information to N_S
Like the original leak to N_S is still unknown, but everything we've known past that (IE that the site was in discussion for getting sold) was confirmed from Nai himself. You can't seriously be witch hunting some sort of leaker when the person you're looking for is Nai.
All I see is you guys chasing ghosts when th person who confirmed to leak to everyone in the gutter was Nai.
I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're trying to say with these posts.
Someone, soon after we learned about Curse, went and told N_S about Curse and give him a bunch of false information. That is the leaker that Arcadic refers to. This person has, over the course of several months, revealed a number of mod lounge topics to non-mods without giving all the information. This has actually caused multiple issues. This wasn't specific to the Curse information.
At the time that N_S leaked this information, it was needed to let the Gutter know that we needed to keep it under wraps while the deal was actually being discussed. The best way to do this was to level with the Gutter. So I let you guys know what was up, and then told you why spreading the limited information we had could have been bad for the website.
I'm specifically referring to NS. Everyone else knew what was going to happen after the precedent set by NS's banning.
But NS shouldn't have been banned in the first place. He should have been infracted. That was the punishment as it was spelled out to us.
I haven't been able to talk about it because I chose to follow the gag order.
The punishment was actually spelled out AFTER N_S was banned.
The ban wasn't specifically for the leak of the information, but that leak was involved.
Just prior to his leak of the information, N_S was complaining about how he had gotten two infractions and how we were supposedly going to retroactively find something else to hit him with. Just after commenting about how he was trolling to make a point, he started revealing this information, including the incorrect bit that this would bring 'big changes to the Rumor Mill' and that everyone could 'only guess if unauthorized spoilers would still be allowed'. N_S also fully expected to be banned.
After a discussion on this, we decided that he was actually outright attempting to get himself banned by spreading information he knew could be harmful.
It wasn't that he was spreading the information, but which information he was choosing to spread and how he was choosing to spread it.
how do you know it was the same person? :boggle:
What I'm trying to say is that anyone who didn't see N_S post didn't know, until you swagged your way into the gutter and confirmed that MTGS was getting Sold
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scumbag
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For what it's worth and not that I agree or disagree with this but I think it's common opinion that ( N_S )'s future on the site involved intervention on the part of the site staff. I didn't expect that he'd go out with such a salvo of posts and self-fulfilling prophecies. He can be back in a year, though; right?
So, what's become of The Gutter? Has that subforum since been closed? What's going on now?
Quote from Teia »
That this information was available to the public is less relevant than the fact that the staff couldn't afford for it to become widely available, especially on this site. Harmful rumours such as "the Gutter is being closed" or "the Rumour Mill will die off" can and have caused people to quit the site, which is very real damage to the community. Imagine if those rumours spread much more pervasively at a time when the staff had little to no information to go on. That would have been disastrous.
Yeah. End of rumour reasons has something to do with the decrease of activity but numerous regulars have ceased frequenting the site.
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Well, that is fine. My biggest issue is that the punishment exceeds what was described.
We were warned:
Not an insta-ban/auto-suspension offense, you know?
Every single person tagged for this thing posted multiple times after their initial posts and threads were deleted. That is a lot more than just 'posting about the Curse deal.' When a mod deletes what you wrote you don't go and post it again.
So, in summary, MTGS is a business, it only cares about the bottom line. It will take any action it deems fit against any users it sees fit because there is no recourse against said actions because the majority of MTGS have no idea about anything that is ever going on and they don't understand why they should care.
MTGS does not care about its forum users. Some of the staff might but overall, the leadership of this site could care less about people's feelings, moral objectivity or the continued existence of this community as we know it.
Apparently, the owners would like to wipe their hands of this site and collect their check, much as every business eventually does. If the site finds itself with a new name, new staff and new users - it's all the same to them - as long as that money keeps coming.
The only recourse people really have is to not use the site. In which case, it will simply be re-branded, it's resources allocated to other parts of business and the staff will move along.
Honestly, to really believe that in a world thriving almost purely off of endless greed that we, as forum users, actually matter to anyone is pure fallacy. We are nothing to the owner of this site except a number to be quoted, we are merely another variable in his calculation of wealth.
So enjoy fighting for your rights and perception of morality because I'm here to tell you - neither of those things exist and it is a fight which cannot be won.
And now, I am going to go do what most people do with this site. Browse through the spoiler, read a terribly written article, poke into the rumor mill to see some shameless fakes, read people calling each other idiots for their card evaluation skills and then call it a day. My only regret is that there isn't anyone left in the Gutter to post something very offensive so I can have a laugh.
See you all around, hope you find a meaningful conclusion to whatever fresh hell this is.
Keep believing that.
Otherwise, it wouldn't have been such a big deal if the deal fell through.
Anyway, talk among yourselves. I've sat here since I've been a member and seen nothing but pathetic drivel come out of CI. Lies and the illusion of a greater purpose are all I see in Admin/User relations just like everywhere else.
In all honesty, it was exciting at first, now it just seems like what people do on internet forums - gripe, gripe, whine, gripe and defend the owner.
Yup, that's pretty much everywhere.
I think I am done with forums, I am pretty disenchanted with this site over the last year I've been here. There is always drama and people handling issues with users unfairly or heavy handedly.
Also, btw, if you don't want news of a sale to get out why the hell would you tell a whole mess of people and then expect it to never get out.
That's like giving a toddler matches and then complaining about how he burnt down your house.
No, Belgareth & Talore are right. Like Belgareth (both of us are former admins), I've talked with Hannes many times and know that he has 100% the community in mind, and that MTGS is actually a net zero at best for him.
Where is that game? Oh, at the height of its popularity he found that money was more important. He ended up selling rare equipment he could produce and sell it for real cash - ruining the economy on the game. Then, once users had heard of what he was doing, he insisted it was good for the game by getting it extra flows of cash (into his pocket). Later, he shut the game down with no notice, emptied all of the accounts that kept the game going and took his ball and went home.
Even those with the best intentions eventually turn to the almighty dollar. I knew, absolutely knew, who this person was and their love of the game they had created. Yet, when it really came down to it, it was too much trouble to be worth it and it faded away overnight - along with all of the funding.
So, yeah, don't trust anyone you have never met in person.
In fact, don't trust them either.
It would be a big deal because this is a deal that would be beneficial to the community instead of harmful, and because it would remove what is (I'm sure) a major source of stress in his life that gives him no financial gain. This has come up again and again over the years, and I can tell you straight-up; the only thing he's getting out of this site is that the default for the card tags is magiccards.info.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
The answer: because it is worth something. It is a brand, it may not make him money but it will make someone money and, thus, he cannot part with it out of simple good will.
Hell, the domain name itself with all of its recognition is likely worth tens of thousands of dollars to the right gaming aggregation site.
It really all does boil down to money.
Do you really believe that, after he receives his check, if MTGS is no more that he will shed a single tear?
It's hard to be sad with champagne in your hand.
A few reasons:
1. He wants to make sure that whoever he gives it to has the sites interest in mind. Forcing a potential taker to pay some amount of money keeps random joe bob from coming in and taking the site with no experience in running it. By making someone pay, you know that they have a vested interest in the site that goes beyond how much the paid for it.
2. He wants to get something out of it, and I personally have no issues with that, he created a community. He should get a reward.
Seriously, though, this is quite the tangent from the actual topic of this thread, which is the discussion of the bannings.
Somebody earlier requested that I give my opinion, as I kind of said I would do so earlier.
Well, I'm sitting in a review session for some good ol' macroeconomic theory (in the context of asian economies—very interesting), but I'll give some thoughts when I get out.
Because he wants it to survive. Because it's worth something. I have no idea how much it's worth, but I know that he's turned down a lot of offers because those potential buyers were not seen to be "a good fit" for the cimmunity. Curse IS a good fit according to him and that's why he is selling to them.
I have a feeling nothing we can say will change your mind though... because internet.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Why? Profit isn't the motive here; he's gotten big offers in the past and turned them down. Some little bit of money to him is a nice plus for the large amounts of money he's invested in this site over the last seven years. But if the staff had thought this was a bad deal for the users, we could (and would!) have scuttled it.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
It also boils down to being responsible with your assets. Giving away the site would be irresponsible, and so would doing anything to hurt the community (even if all that does is lower the site's value).
I guarantee you that is how it will be and that is what will likely happen.
First thing I would do is fire all of the staff, appoint my own internal staff and rebuild this forum from the ground up.
Then, practically, MTGS is dead.
But yes, this is off topic and I will take my leave.
P.S.
"I have a feeling nothing we can say will change your mind though... because internet."
LoL, isn't that so sadly true?
Yes, that is exactly what curse will do, like they have done with every other site they have acquired (and by that I mean the 8 or so gaming websites that they bought and currently own and operate).
There's a difference between fear and conspiracy. You're arguing from the assumption that the least likely occurrence will happen.
I mean, once it is outside of his hands who knows what is going to happen. These Curse people could easily shut it down and absorb the domain and the server resources. However, looking at who they are now, it seems they might do some good for the site.
However, this outside company could really care less about any of us. Once this site shows a net of zero from this acquisition, well, start writing your goodbye posts.
However, it really doesn't matter what anyone thinks, there will be no exodus as a result of these bannings - unfair or not.
No-one of particular interest would also care about the Gutter closing. Sure, some people would notice and some of them leave. They will be replaced in hours, regardless their position of community influence. That's just how it is.
What you all really need to concentrate on is applying your rules and policies evenly and stopping those knee jerk reactions. Otherwise, we are going to have to listen to whining in here about it for the rest of the sites existence.
Any who, you all are much more qualified to deal with this stuff that I am and, honestly, after my previous rant I have lost the will to care.
Hope you all have a wonderful afternoon.
Strictly speaking, that same logic could also be used to justify the argument that Hannes will just up and put malware into the site too. It's an appeal to ignorance along with an appeal to consequences, which are logical fallacies. That we don't know for absolute sure that Curse won't do that doesn't really matter. It's reasonable to believe, based upon past performance with similar sites, that their ownership of this site will be exemplary.
It wouldn't make sense for someone to spend all the time, effort, and money to acquire this site, only to run it irresponsibly and wind up killing it.
That this information was available to the public is less relevant than the fact that the staff couldn't afford for it to become widely available, especially on this site. Harmful rumours such as "the Gutter is being closed" or "the Rumour Mill will die off" can and have caused people to quit the site, which is very real damage to the community. Imagine if those rumours spread much more pervasively at a time when the staff had little to no information to go on. That would have been disastrous.
I'm specifically referring to NS. Everyone else knew what was going to happen after the precedent set by NS's banning.
But NS shouldn't have been banned in the first place. He should have been infracted. That was the punishment as it was spelled out to us.
I haven't been able to talk about it because I chose to follow the gag order.
I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're trying to say with these posts.
Someone, soon after we learned about Curse, went and told N_S about Curse and give him a bunch of false information. That is the leaker that Arcadic refers to. This person has, over the course of several months, revealed a number of mod lounge topics to non-mods without giving all the information. This has actually caused multiple issues. This wasn't specific to the Curse information.
At the time that N_S leaked this information, it was needed to let the Gutter know that we needed to keep it under wraps while the deal was actually being discussed. The best way to do this was to level with the Gutter. So I let you guys know what was up, and then told you why spreading the limited information we had could have been bad for the website.
The punishment was actually spelled out AFTER N_S was banned.
The ban wasn't specifically for the leak of the information, but that leak was involved.
Just prior to his leak of the information, N_S was complaining about how he had gotten two infractions and how we were supposedly going to retroactively find something else to hit him with. Just after commenting about how he was trolling to make a point, he started revealing this information, including the incorrect bit that this would bring 'big changes to the Rumor Mill' and that everyone could 'only guess if unauthorized spoilers would still be allowed'. N_S also fully expected to be banned.
After a discussion on this, we decided that he was actually outright attempting to get himself banned by spreading information he knew could be harmful.
It wasn't that he was spreading the information, but which information he was choosing to spread and how he was choosing to spread it.
My helpdesk should you need me.
What I'm trying to say is that anyone who didn't see N_S post didn't know, until you swagged your way into the gutter and confirmed that MTGS was getting Sold
scumbag
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We felt it was more damaging to let the rumors fly than it was to confirm them to a small section of the site.
My helpdesk should you need me.
So, what's become of The Gutter? Has that subforum since been closed? What's going on now?
Yeah. End of rumour reasons has something to do with the decrease of activity but numerous regulars have ceased frequenting the site.