The logic fail in this thread is making my head explode. If you don't like SCG, why do you want Ark42 to use SCG price data? Why don't you want Ark42 to get its price data from a source that you think is better?
Also, the people who think stores shouldn't change their card prices in response to changes in demand or events such as banning have got to be kidding. Magic cards are constantly changing in value with every shift in the metagame and every set printed and running a good Magic business is all about responding to those changes as fast as possible. There are 50 billion places to buy Magic cards both on the internet, b&m stores, and trading with friends.
If you want to complain about any organization setting the price of Magic cards, complain about ebay buyers and sellers - because ebay sales actually determine the baseline value more than scg does. I guarantee scg pays staff to watch ebay 24/7 and that the scg price changes are driven by ebay more than anything else.
Yea, and now normal, everyday players/traders lost a valueable tool that gave them the heads up.
SCG prices cards at what they want to price them and they sell them for that price.
Customers then have the choice of either buying from them or buying from somebody else.
Hmmm ... Free market society. Yeah, that sounds like a rip off to me.
Nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy from SCG. Personally, I've never bought anything from SCG and I spend about $700 on cards every 3 months. This last quarter I spent under $300 because I'm close to broke. But I got good deals on the cards I bought and didn't buy from SCG.
So will somebody please explain to me (and just a warning, I run my own business) how SCG is ripping people off when those same people have free will to buy from whoever they want?
I'll wait for anything resembling a logical explanation.
As I understand the argument against them, it's basically an antitrust argument. When a single business (or multiple ones acting together) gets a high enough market share, they become able to act in certain ways which distort a previously-free market. This is why antitrust law exists.
I have no idea whether they are actually doing this or have enough market share to make it possible.
I'm confused why these guys complied with SCG's request, from what I garnered through skimming database scraping on Wikipedia, it's similar to what they do for web indexing which is the duplication of facts (which was determined legal by the US Courts) and isn't trespassing digitally into SCG's web services in any way. If anything they're just letting themselves be pushed around unless they received a letter detailing their infrigement from a lawyer.
No, scraping is not illegal (it can be, but I don't think this case is even close), but I'm sure SCG's "request" for Ark42 to stop scraping their site was accompanied with an "if you don't we'll take legal action that you can't afford/just block your access to our site." They wouldn't have complied with SCG if they didn't feel like they had to.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern - RUG Delver RUG - Splinter Twin UR - Jund BRG
Legacy - RUG Delver RUG - Maverick GW - SI BG
Foreigning out SI, currently 33/75. The only thing better than a T1 kill is doing it with cards no one has ever heard of and/or can't read. If anyone has any of the usual pieces, PM me. I'm willing to buy/trade.
SCG is clearly not concerned with Ark42 scraping, since all their price data is still up on Ark42. The only thing that changed is the ability to see (at a glance) what prices have changed.
While I highly doubt this is true, if it is, then it means that SCG has an inside connection with Wizards who informed them. If that's so, blame Wizards, not SCG. SCG acting on privileged information is simply good business sense.
that's funny because when I did this on the stock market the police came to my door and said something about "insider trading" and threatened to take me to jail...
Just to be perfectly clear on this - what ark42 did is not technically difficult nor is it illegal. Any other card store that wants to replicate ark42's functionality can easily develop it in house or pay a consultant to handle it. And if enough people want this feature and are willing to pay for it, I'm sure some enterprising entrepreneur can make it happen.
- I'd say more of an opportunist, but when a buisness does it, it comes off as a shady, money making ploy. Whether thats their intention or not.
- I got 3, at msrp. I am dealing with it. But i can't help but fell bad for all people that shop at places that charge 400% more for a quick buck.
- I dislike apple to, whats your point. I am not the only one that has a dislike for SCG.
All in all, what SCG did was only piss off a handfull of people for no reason. Made it SLIGHTLY more inconvenient to undercut them. Good job SCG.
SCG's job is to make money, you are sounding like a anti-government hippy right now. you're saying that they should just sell cheaper so you can afford items better. all i am understanding is angst right now as your comments have not made any relevancy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
top 100 SCG Sacramento
1st place GPT Seattle
1st place GPT Anaheim
SCG's job is to make money, you are sounding like a anti-government hippy right now. you're saying that they should just sell cheaper so you can afford items better. all i am understanding is angst right now as your comments have not made any relevancy.
Umm.... yea. Thats what i'm saying...
(wtf)
It has nothing to do with their prices, i don't care since i don't buy from them. It came up in another argument, of why people dislike scg.
(in fact, ark42 USED thier prices, and i used it as a guide) Think before you speak.
I liked being up to date on prices with an easy to use guide, scg took that away. I don't like it. And others don't either.
They can ASK all they want, but as per current law, they can have protection over how the information is laid out, but not over the information itself since it is, in of itself, FACTUAL in nature. IF they did more than ask, which we do not know, so I will not speculate, that would be considered disgusting by ANY standard... and if they didn't, hope the people at ark42 are savy enough to look up the law, etc and bounce back.
EDIT: I mean, sure, if they don't cite sources that is another bag of worms, but that is easily resolved without any kind of takedown, copyright hooplah.
Some of the responses here are quite laughable. It doesn't matter if scraping is illegal or not. There is one quick solution for SCG--it's called a firewall or a router ACL. SCG's website data is their data and they can allow or disallow anyone they want to access it. It's a trivial matter to block whomever they don't want to access it.
As for the Land Tax "issue", it never ceases to amaze me how people bash SCG for raising prices on Land Tax yet every other large MTG vendor on the Internet did the SAME THING. Troll and Toad and Channel Fireball each were asking the same prices.
This is simply a case of people hating on the market leader. If you don't like SCG's prices or policies, then don't buy from them. Start your own online retailer and build a better business. This is how capitalism works.
that's funny because when I did this on the stock market the police came to my door and said something about "insider trading" and threatened to take me to jail...
False equivalency. The MTG secondary market and the stock market aren't the same thing. The stock market is governed by laws regarding insider trading in order to protect investors from getting hosed after making investments based on available market data. Basically, those laws make it an even playing field for all investors. There are no such laws governing investing in collector cards, because the secondary market doesn't affect a large scale national economy. And even with said laws, people make bad investments all the time based on where they perceive the market is going based on the trades of others, only to have them backfire.
Wizards getting rid of the Reserve List would have a greater impact on old card value than any single retailer ever could. The worst case scenario in the described scenario is that some online retailers had their Land Taxes purchased for below value, and even that would have required a leap of faith on the part of the people buying the cards. Any prospective buyer would have had to a) seen that SCG marked up their price prior to the banlist being updated, b) noticed that other online retailers were still selling for less, and c) made the assumption that SCG knew something that they didn't, which could have very easily blown up in their faces.
It's also quite worth noting that Ark42's own data refutes the claim that SCG increased the value of Land Tax prior to the ban list update. It very clearly shows an increase in value of Land Tax right on June 20th, the same day as the ban list update.
False equivalency. The MTG secondary market and the stock market aren't the same thing. The stock market is governed by laws regarding insider trading in order to protect investors from getting hosed after making investments based on available market data. Basically, those laws make it an even playing field for all investors. There are no such laws governing investing in collector cards, because the secondary market doesn't affect a large scale national economy. And even with said laws, people make bad investments all the time based on where they perceive the market is going based on the trades of others, only to have them backfire.
Wizards getting rid of the Reserve List would have a greater impact on old card value than any single retailer ever could. The worst case scenario in the described scenario is that some online retailers had their Land Taxes purchased for below value, and even that would have required a leap of faith on the part of the people buying the cards. Any prospective buyer would have had to a) seen that SCG marked up their price prior to the banlist being updated, b) noticed that other online retailers were still selling for less, and c) made the assumption that SCG knew something that they didn't, which could have very easily blown up in their faces.
It's also quite worth noting that Ark42's own data refutes the claim that SCG increased the value of Land Tax prior to the ban list update. It very clearly shows an increase in value of Land Tax right on June 20th, the same day as the ban list update.
Nobody was implying that, they pulled their cards BEFORE the update, and reposted the day after. Either becuase they got a heads up, or anticipated it getting unabnned so they could cash in. Looks bad either way, even if you understand "it's a buisness".
Nobody was implying that, they pulled their cards BEFORE the update, and reposted the day after. Either becuase they got a heads up, or anticipated it getting unabnned so they could cash in. Looks bad either way, even if you understand "it's a buisness".
If you're looking for another quick source of prices, I would recommend http://magic.tcgplayer.com/magic_price_guides.asp. I made a little bash scraper script to nab prices and sort them out. You could very easily set it up to run daily and calculate the differences, as long as you have a little Linux scripting skill and an internet connection. They use a broad ranger of sellers so you get better "real market" prices than just SCG.
You can see the scraper script in the Market Street Cafe here.
Some of the responses here are quite laughable. It doesn't matter if scraping is illegal or not.
This is kinda ironic - you say those responses are laughable as if they were irrelevant, but this is actually VERY MUCH a key point in this.
The use of their prices is what spurred the complaint, and the shutdown - as if they had exclusive right over the data... as others have pointed out, so far as factual data is concerned [as opposed to the presentation of the data] that is simply false.
This is simply a case of people hating on the market leader. If you don't like SCG's prices or policies, then don't buy from them. Start your own online retailer and build a better business. This is how capitalism works.
Hating the market leader? Maybe on the specific prices [Maybe being the key word], but even that is just making blanket statements without basis - and if you apply it to those talking about ark42, IN my opinion ONLY, you're just barking up the wrong tree. It is not hating the market leader in the sense of being envious or anything if the complaint is over the use of factual information.
In case anybody's not clear on a few things, even though I keep posting this on Facebook and Reddit, etc...
ark42.com is run by me, and just me, some random L2 judge from Grand Rapids, MI
SCG emailed me and asked nicely to remove a few specific features about showing price changes. I agreed, because they were polite about it, and didn't ask for the whole thing taken down. I didn't have to, but I felt it was the proper thing to do, because I don't want to create the impression that my site is specifically used to harm SCGs sales by helping SCGs competitors. My site is for MTG players benefit only.
There is nothing close to illegal about scraping facts from websites. There have been numerous precedents set regarding similar things. The best one I can think of is Black Friday ads -- you can get in trouble for scanning the whole ad and posting it online (copyright violation, the layout, art and graphics are protected). The stores can do nothing about people who just post the sale prices and items going on sale, even if the ad isn't supposed to be in people's mailboxes yet. Prices are facts, and not copyrightable.
There could very well be other people doing similar things as my site. It's not an easy thing to do now, because of the random CSS tags and having to OCR the images for the prices, but if I can do it, others can do. My site is not for sale, and nobody else will be using my exact code to scrape SCG though.
IP blocks are meaningless to me, because I have plenty of experience as a Linux and C++ programmer, and I'd just write a custom proxy network and/or P2P system to fetch bits and pieces of their webpage and feed it back to my site. The cat & mouse game is something that I'm pretty sure the person doing the scraping will always win, given proper dedication.
Any further questions, I'd be happy to answer here. I'd rather tell people what's going on straight up than let wild speculation run rampant.
In case anybody's not clear on a few things, even though I keep posting this on Facebook and Reddit, etc...
ark42.com is run by me, and just me, some random L2 judge from Grand Rapids, MI
SCG emailed me and asked nicely to remove a few specific features about showing price changes. I agreed, because they were polite about it, and didn't ask for the whole thing taken down. I didn't have to, but I felt it was the proper thing to do, because I don't want to create the impression that my site is specifically used to harm SCGs sales by helping SCGs competitors. My site is for MTG players benefit only.
There is nothing close to illegal about scraping facts from websites. There have been numerous precedents set regarding similar things. The best one I can think of is Black Friday ads -- you can get in trouble for scanning the whole ad and posting it online (copyright violation, the layout, art and graphics are protected). The stores can do nothing about people who just post the sale prices and items going on sale, even if the ad isn't supposed to be in people's mailboxes yet. Prices are facts, and not copyrightable.
There could very well be other people doing similar things as my site. It's not an easy thing to do now, because of the random CSS tags and having to OCR the images for the prices, but if I can do it, others can do. My site is not for sale, and nobody else will be using my exact code to scrape SCG though.
IP blocks are meaningless to me, because I have plenty of experience as a Linux and C++ programmer, and I'd just write a custom proxy network and/or P2P system to fetch bits and pieces of their webpage and feed it back to my site. The cat & mouse game is something that I'm pretty sure the person doing the scraping will always win, given proper dedication.
Any further questions, I'd be happy to answer here. I'd rather tell people what's going on straight up than let wild speculation run rampant.
Thumbs up for clearing that all up.
And thanks for doing what you do for the player base, Ark42.
They're not ripping people off. There are plenty of other places to buy singles if you think they charge too much. It's not like SCG has a monopoly on online Magic sales..
This is not completely right. SCG has a semi-monopoly on a lot of prices. The reason that Legacy is so expensive is SCG. SCG has the ability to get basically whatever they want in terms of the market. SCG sets a price for the market, and everyone else follows based off of that, as much as people may want to pretend otherwise. Wizards even goes to SCG for some number of business deals that they don't do with other stores, such as the Hidden Treasures of Zendikar's first printing.
Yea, and now normal, everyday players/traders lost a valueable tool that gave them the heads up.
Big thanks to Rivenor for the sig!!
As I understand the argument against them, it's basically an antitrust argument. When a single business (or multiple ones acting together) gets a high enough market share, they become able to act in certain ways which distort a previously-free market. This is why antitrust law exists.
I have no idea whether they are actually doing this or have enough market share to make it possible.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Legacy - RUG Delver RUG - Maverick GW - SI BG
Foreigning out SI, currently 33/75. The only thing better than a T1 kill is doing it with cards no one has ever heard of and/or can't read. If anyone has any of the usual pieces, PM me. I'm willing to buy/trade.
that's funny because when I did this on the stock market the police came to my door and said something about "insider trading" and threatened to take me to jail...
SCG's job is to make money, you are sounding like a anti-government hippy right now. you're saying that they should just sell cheaper so you can afford items better. all i am understanding is angst right now as your comments have not made any relevancy.
1st place GPT Seattle
1st place GPT Anaheim
Umm.... yea. Thats what i'm saying...
(wtf)
It has nothing to do with their prices, i don't care since i don't buy from them. It came up in another argument, of why people dislike scg.
(in fact, ark42 USED thier prices, and i used it as a guide) Think before you speak.
I liked being up to date on prices with an easy to use guide, scg took that away. I don't like it. And others don't either.
Big thanks to Rivenor for the sig!!
They can ASK all they want, but as per current law, they can have protection over how the information is laid out, but not over the information itself since it is, in of itself, FACTUAL in nature. IF they did more than ask, which we do not know, so I will not speculate, that would be considered disgusting by ANY standard... and if they didn't, hope the people at ark42 are savy enough to look up the law, etc and bounce back.
EDIT: I mean, sure, if they don't cite sources that is another bag of worms, but that is easily resolved without any kind of takedown, copyright hooplah.
As for the Land Tax "issue", it never ceases to amaze me how people bash SCG for raising prices on Land Tax yet every other large MTG vendor on the Internet did the SAME THING. Troll and Toad and Channel Fireball each were asking the same prices.
This is simply a case of people hating on the market leader. If you don't like SCG's prices or policies, then don't buy from them. Start your own online retailer and build a better business. This is how capitalism works.
False equivalency. The MTG secondary market and the stock market aren't the same thing. The stock market is governed by laws regarding insider trading in order to protect investors from getting hosed after making investments based on available market data. Basically, those laws make it an even playing field for all investors. There are no such laws governing investing in collector cards, because the secondary market doesn't affect a large scale national economy. And even with said laws, people make bad investments all the time based on where they perceive the market is going based on the trades of others, only to have them backfire.
Wizards getting rid of the Reserve List would have a greater impact on old card value than any single retailer ever could. The worst case scenario in the described scenario is that some online retailers had their Land Taxes purchased for below value, and even that would have required a leap of faith on the part of the people buying the cards. Any prospective buyer would have had to a) seen that SCG marked up their price prior to the banlist being updated, b) noticed that other online retailers were still selling for less, and c) made the assumption that SCG knew something that they didn't, which could have very easily blown up in their faces.
It's also quite worth noting that Ark42's own data refutes the claim that SCG increased the value of Land Tax prior to the ban list update. It very clearly shows an increase in value of Land Tax right on June 20th, the same day as the ban list update.
GGG [Primer] Omnath, Big Green Beatstick Machine GGG
Nobody was implying that, they pulled their cards BEFORE the update, and reposted the day after. Either becuase they got a heads up, or anticipated it getting unabnned so they could cash in. Looks bad either way, even if you understand "it's a buisness".
Big thanks to Rivenor for the sig!!
How does being smart look bad?
I guess you're all for $120.00 FTVs and $250.00 commanders arsenals to huh?
Big thanks to Rivenor for the sig!!
I am. Adam Smith and I are pretty good friends.
Well, you are part of a small majority. That speaks for itself.
Big thanks to Rivenor for the sig!!
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
You can see the scraper script in the Market Street Cafe here.
Check out Odds//Ends - My articles on Quirky Cards and Oddball Builds
Long-time PucaTrade member and sometime author. Send me cards!
Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
Starcity charges more, yes.
They're the most reliable store on the Internet, with the largest amount of cards.
They host major events that bring in hundreds of people and are the only dealers at their events.
But, would you rather not have the events? Or would you rather buying cards be a risk? Well.....
This is kinda ironic - you say those responses are laughable as if they were irrelevant, but this is actually VERY MUCH a key point in this.
The use of their prices is what spurred the complaint, and the shutdown - as if they had exclusive right over the data... as others have pointed out, so far as factual data is concerned [as opposed to the presentation of the data] that is simply false.
Hating the market leader? Maybe on the specific prices [Maybe being the key word], but even that is just making blanket statements without basis - and if you apply it to those talking about ark42, IN my opinion ONLY, you're just barking up the wrong tree. It is not hating the market leader in the sense of being envious or anything if the complaint is over the use of factual information.
ark42.com is run by me, and just me, some random L2 judge from Grand Rapids, MI
SCG emailed me and asked nicely to remove a few specific features about showing price changes. I agreed, because they were polite about it, and didn't ask for the whole thing taken down. I didn't have to, but I felt it was the proper thing to do, because I don't want to create the impression that my site is specifically used to harm SCGs sales by helping SCGs competitors. My site is for MTG players benefit only.
There is nothing close to illegal about scraping facts from websites. There have been numerous precedents set regarding similar things. The best one I can think of is Black Friday ads -- you can get in trouble for scanning the whole ad and posting it online (copyright violation, the layout, art and graphics are protected). The stores can do nothing about people who just post the sale prices and items going on sale, even if the ad isn't supposed to be in people's mailboxes yet. Prices are facts, and not copyrightable.
There could very well be other people doing similar things as my site. It's not an easy thing to do now, because of the random CSS tags and having to OCR the images for the prices, but if I can do it, others can do. My site is not for sale, and nobody else will be using my exact code to scrape SCG though.
IP blocks are meaningless to me, because I have plenty of experience as a Linux and C++ programmer, and I'd just write a custom proxy network and/or P2P system to fetch bits and pieces of their webpage and feed it back to my site. The cat & mouse game is something that I'm pretty sure the person doing the scraping will always win, given proper dedication.
Any further questions, I'd be happy to answer here. I'd rather tell people what's going on straight up than let wild speculation run rampant.
Thumbs up for clearing that all up.
And thanks for doing what you do for the player base, Ark42.
This is not completely right. SCG has a semi-monopoly on a lot of prices. The reason that Legacy is so expensive is SCG. SCG has the ability to get basically whatever they want in terms of the market. SCG sets a price for the market, and everyone else follows based off of that, as much as people may want to pretend otherwise. Wizards even goes to SCG for some number of business deals that they don't do with other stores, such as the Hidden Treasures of Zendikar's first printing.