Epic Struggle is one of the hardest cards to build a good deck around, because if you've played 20 creatures, you usually don't need Epic Struggle to win. A lot of times these decks are simply win-more, making Epic Struggle completely unnecessary. I believe I've successfully made a deck that is not only explosive, but also allows for Epic Struggle to shine. I present to you, my idea of an Epic Comeback.
So the main combo is Back from the Brink + Epic Struggle, fueled by 0-mana cost creatures and Artificer's Intuition to fill the graveyard. The amazing part of this deck is that you can just combo out the turn you play Back from the Brink, provided you have enough creatures in play/graveyard. The limited time your opponent has to respond to this combo is absolutely key.
Card Explanations:
The Creatures: 25 creatures in total including Khalni Garden. May be a little on the short side but I think it can work.
The 0-mana creatures are important not only for their mana cost, but also because they don't make Epic Struggle irrelevant. Their 0-power means you're not going to win by attacking, making Epic Struggle the only option.
Trinket Mage - Fetch utility artifacts or late game get a 2nd creature to add to the Epic Struggle count.
Meekstone - Hold back dangerous creatures...none of the deck's creatures get affected by this.
Dead-Iron Sledge - An odd inclusion, but I think it can work as a defensive card. Better than Basilisk Collar because a lot of the creatures have 0-power.
Tolarian Academy - Obviously broken, but I think a deck like this warrants an inclusion as a 1-of.
Tolaria West - Fetches the aforementioned lands and a 0-CMC creature to add to the Epic Struggle count.
Mox Opal - Free mana is always good. Springleaf Drum - Artificer's Intuition[/card] is quite mana-intensive, so accelerants like these are needed.
Overall I think it's a really cool deck that has the potential to win games in Casual. The main concern is not having enough removal and protection for the combo. I would love to fit in a Remand or something in there. Beast Within doesn't sound too bad either as a removal spell or an additional contributor to Epic Struggle. But I don't know what to cut!
Sideboard is just some more ideas I had for this deck but didn't include in the end. I'd love to hear your comments and suggestions for the deck.
i like the flash in epic struggle, the deck i have to epic struggle its a classic saprofita deck, maybe with populate from RtR
but with cmc 0 creatures is the first time i see, cool
Have you tried actually playing this deck yet? I just played two games on Cockatrice with it, and it ran very poorly for me (though they may have been just poor draws, too). I'm thinking that some of the numbers here need tweaked to be a bit more effective.
The room was, "Super Casual Deck Test" on Cockatrice, if the guy I played against frequents this site. If you are, know that I didn't mean for super casual to be Modern Zoo with Wild Nacatls, lol. Good games though, chap.
Game 1, I couldn't draw into Epic Struggle, Back from the Brink or anything else that would actually help me win. I got 3 Artificer's Intuitions, though, lmao. The game took a while because I always had blockers, but could not effectively deal enough damage to win or win without the combo, of which I only had a 22% chance of drawing both of them anyway (without draw spells, of which I cast 2 Thoughtcast and still got nowhere, so probably 26-28% after those are taken into account). When I hit 5 life I was nailed by a Lightning Bolt and a Lightning Helix, lol.
Game 2, I mulliganed to five to get a decent opener and drew into Back from the Brink, but didn't get Epic Struggle. It wouldn't have mattered anyway, as I simply could not get more than 10 creatures in play regularly (I think at one time I had 12, even using the Brink's ability just to prolong the game so I wouldn't die which was necessary twice before finally getting killed by Rhox War Monks and Bolts, so I was on a short clock anyway ;_;
So, I'll list off a couple problems I had off the bat, and if you feel that I missed the point then feel free to ignore them:
1) Not enough ways to interact with an opponent. When facing down a field of a 3/3, a 3/4 with lifelink, a 2/3, a 5/4, etc., I desperately wanted to do something to kill some of those creatures or speed up the combination so that they ultimately wouldn't matter. As it stands now, that wasn't an option, and even through blocking to keep out of Lightning Bolt range (I typically didn't block until turn 4-5, when the combat damage would have been lethal or put me below 7 because I feared a Bolt followed by a Helix) it ultimately didn't matter and I was just going to eventually succumb to inevitability. I'm thinking something like Wash Out might be beneficial, as Evacuation's higher mana cost is a bit prohibitive even if it is an instant (I might just be saying this because I played this against someone's casual Zoo monstrosity, but the difference between turn 4 and turn 5 is huge). Propaganda might also be a nice way to stave off death.
2) Not enough draw. With only 2 copies each of the necessary spells with which to combo, the chance of having either in your opening hand is only 22%, significantly less to get both. By turn 7, the chance of drawing into both is still in the 20% range unless you cast 3+ draw spells, which means 2-3 out of every 4 games you're going to go without the combo, but the combo is the only means the deck has to win. That's a bother, so my suggestion is easily Skullclamp. Tutorable through the Intuition, and it should give you enough draw capability to assemble the combo more often, hopefully.
3) There doesn't seem to be enough creatures to make the combo work, which seems like a bad idea considering the combo is the only way to win. It's required to get 80% of the creatures in the deck in order to combo out and that's including Khalni Garden. That's a pretty big problem, as a combo needing more than half of anything needs significant aid in bringing that out. Even with Artificer's Intuition, exchanging 1 artifact creature for another still required several turns and when blocking needs to come into play because you can't do much each turn, 21+4 just isn't enough. Again, Skullclamp might help (though the only good targets for it as it stands are the Servitor and Memnite, though that could easily be changed), but it might also be beneficial to look into cards that produce tokens as even when the creatures are drawn it doesn't change the fact that you'll need to block at some point even with Meekstone (which didn't seem to do much since this guy had reach lol. I probably could have been fine if not for his Lightning Bolts and Lightning Helixes), and other decks run removal to kill creatures, enchantments and artifacts so getting your combo stopped that easily makes me a sad panda (Qasali Pridemage, for example) because opposing decks can reach lethal range pretty quickly even just swinging once and going off the topdeck.
Thopter Foundry, for example, would give you the option to make flying blockers and gain life, then Back from the Brink would let you recreate your sacrificed artifact creature (toss Skullclamp into this scenario and it sounds like the possibility of survival is likely). Sword of the Meek and Thopter Foundry is a tried and true combo (if you don't know of it, just ask), but you may wish to abstain from a combination that would basically win without needing your other combo at all, though Thopter Foundry by itself could still be extremely helpful. There's Pentavus/Tetravus, and while they're expensive, they can also grind you to 20 and provide blockers (though, they get better with Doubling Season or something). Nuisance Engine, even, may help. Sharding Sphinx would require combat damage but could produce a lot of tokens, though I'm guessing you wish to avoid the combat phase. If you don't like any of the above token cards, consider Genesis chamber (though it produces tokens for your opponents too).
If you're willing to go for another color or use colored spells, there are powerful token producing cards outside of straight artifacts, like Darien, King of Kjeldor, Sprout Swarm, etc..
4) There's not enough lands/mana sources. At all. 18 is not enough to cast cards that require 66% of the mana available in the deck. Affinity runs more mana sources (15-16 lands plus 3-4 Opal and 3-4 Springleaf Drum) yet doesn't run 6 mana spells that they *need* to cast in order to win. Another significant problem I was running into was being stuck at 2-3 lands forever that were in my opener and not being able to get enough mana to cast things like Thirst for Knowledge early when I needed to, but I did finally get the Brink out off a Tolarian Academy in the second game. Overall I think 22+ would be a better fit since you need to flat-out cast a 4 and 6 mana spell, and Tolaria West isn't always going to be something you draw (or have the mana to activate when you DO draw it). There's a 44% chance of getting a Tolaria West by turn 7 (not counting the draw spells, it's in the low 50s if you cast a couple)
Anyway, I probably misplayed the deck severely or something, but I did not have a great time with it, and those are my suggestions.
Have you tried actually playing this deck yet? I just played two games on Cockatrice with it, and it ran very poorly for me (though they may have been just poor draws, too). I'm thinking that some of the numbers here need tweaked to be a bit more effective.
Everything I post on this forum is on a pure theoretical basis. I imagine the interactions in my head while deckbuilding. This of course means there are times where my thinking is off the mark. I built this in about 45 minutes of brainstorming and then immediately posted it here so I haven't had a chance to play with the deck with others. I do try it out in solitaire mode just to see how it would play out from my side, and it seemed to work at least on a fundamental level.
The room was, "Super Casual Deck Test" on Cockatrice, if the guy I played against frequents this site. If you are, know that I didn't mean for super casual to be Modern Zoo with Wild Nacatls, lol. Good games though, chap.
Meta is always a prevalent issue - from the 60+ decks I have it ranges from the jankiest decks to a mid-level deck. I think all of my decks are viable of winning at least 25%~50% of the time, but certainly not against Modern Zoo. This deck would never win against a deck like that. I design with my casual playgroup in mind which has a relatively low power level, so decks like these can succeed.
Game 1, I couldn't draw into Epic Struggle, Back from the Brink or anything else that would actually help me win. I got 3 Artificer's Intuitions, though, lmao. The game took a while because I always had blockers, but could not effectively deal enough damage to win or win without the combo, of which I only had a 22% chance of drawing both of them anyway (without draw spells, of which I cast 2 Thoughtcast and still got nowhere, so probably 26-28% after those are taken into account). When I hit 5 life I was nailed by a Lightning Bolt and a Lightning Helix, lol.
You mention the draw %, and while I won't look into them myself, I want to know if these percentages have taken all the deck thinning into account? The deck significantly thins out the deck via Artificer's Intuition - at least 3~4 times per turn if not more. But I think running 3 copies of Back from the Brink & Epic Struggle is really redundant and would make this deck worse. I thought 7 good draw spells + deck thinning would have sufficed, but perhaps not. I will have to look into this a little more.
Game 2, I mulliganed to five to get a decent opener and drew into Back from the Brink, but didn't get Epic Struggle. It wouldn't have mattered anyway, as I simply could not get more than 10 creatures in play regularly (I think at one time I had 12, even using the Brink's ability just to prolong the game so I wouldn't die which was necessary twice before finally getting killed by Rhox War Monks and Bolts, so I was on a short clock anyway ;_;
The mulligan thing is not really an issue in my playgroup as we do allow 1~2 free mulligans depending on the deck's power level. The creature issue was definitely something I was mulling over after posting the deck. It's an obvious issue, but one that's rather difficult to solve properly. More on it below -
So, I'll list off a couple problems I had off the bat, and if you feel that I missed the point then feel free to ignore them:
1) Not enough ways to interact with an opponent. When facing down a field of a 3/3, a 3/4 with lifelink, a 2/3, a 5/4, etc., I desperately wanted to do something to kill some of those creatures or speed up the combination so that they ultimately wouldn't matter. As it stands now, that wasn't an option, and even through blocking to keep out of Lightning Bolt range (I typically didn't block until turn 4-5, when the combat damage would have been lethal or put me below 7 because I feared a Bolt followed by a Helix) it ultimately didn't matter and I was just going to eventually succumb to inevitability. I'm thinking something like Wash Out might be beneficial, as Evacuation's higher mana cost is a bit prohibitive even if it is an instant (I might just be saying this because I played this against someone's casual Zoo monstrosity, but the difference between turn 4 and turn 5 is huge). Propaganda might also be a nice way to stave off death.
I did include Dead-Iron Sledge as a method of killing creatures, although it's not particularly effective I'm sure. It's true that this deck really does not pressure the opponent actively so that is definitely a concern. I think Wash Out is a good idea, although it does clash with Meekstone and untapping your opponent's creatures.
2) Not enough draw. With only 2 copies each of the necessary spells with which to combo, the chance of having either in your opening hand is only 22%, significantly less to get both. By turn 7, the chance of drawing into both is still in the 20% range unless you cast 3+ draw spells, which means 2-3 out of every 4 games you're going to go without the combo, but the combo is the only means the deck has to win. That's a bother, so my suggestion is easily Skullclamp. Tutorable through the Intuition, and it should give you enough draw capability to assemble the combo more often, hopefully.
Skullclamp was a card I considered during design but I wrote it off as it seemed way too broken. Myr Servitor + Skullclamp is of course really great, and it would also deter the opponents from attacking. As a 1-of it may be passable, so it is now something to be considered to make the deck viable. The draw stats I mentioned before as well, but I don't think you're taking the deck thinning into account.
3) There doesn't seem to be enough creatures to make the combo work, which seems like a bad idea considering the combo is the only way to win. It's required to get 80% of the creatures in the deck in order to combo out and that's including Khalni Garden. That's a pretty big problem, as a combo needing more than half of anything needs significant aid in bringing that out. Even with Artificer's Intuition, exchanging 1 artifact creature for another still required several turns and when blocking needs to come into play because you can't do much each turn, 21+4 just isn't enough. Again, Skullclamp might help (though the only good targets for it as it stands are the Servitor and Memnite, though that could easily be changed), but it might also be beneficial to look into cards that produce tokens as even when the creatures are drawn it doesn't change the fact that you'll need to block at some point even with Meekstone (which didn't seem to do much since this guy had reach lol. I probably could have been fine if not for his Lightning Bolts and Lightning Helixes), and other decks run removal to kill creatures, enchantments and artifacts so getting your combo stopped that easily makes me a sad panda (Qasali Pridemage, for example) because opposing decks can reach lethal range pretty quickly even just swinging once and going off the topdeck.
As I said before this is a big issue. I think Saproling Symbiosis can help a great deal - especially because it can be played at Instant Speed. Parallel Evolution can also work, but it's only useful after Back from the Brink comes down. I originally stayed away from mass-token producers like Spider Spawning as I think you can just win via tokens attacking that way, but Saproling Symbiosis as a 1 or 2-of does not detract from the main combo too much.
Thopter Foundry, for example, would give you the option to make flying blockers and gain life, then Back from the Brink would let you recreate your sacrificed artifact creature (toss Skullclamp into this scenario and it sounds like the possibility of survival is likely). Sword of the Meek and Thopter Foundry is a tried and true combo (if you don't know of it, just ask), but you may wish to abstain from a combination that would basically win without needing your other combo at all, though Thopter Foundry by itself could still be extremely helpful. There's Pentavus/Tetravus, and while they're expensive, they can also grind you to 20 and provide blockers (though, they get better with Doubling Season or something). Nuisance Engine, even, may help. Sharding Sphinx would require combat damage but could produce a lot of tokens, though I'm guessing you wish to avoid the combat phase. If you don't like any of the above token cards, consider Genesis chamber (though it produces tokens for your opponents too).
I'm aware of the combo and that Thopter Foundry is a good card, but I really dislike running well-known (and banned) combos like Foundry + Sword of the Meek. Splashing White can be possible (via Glimmervoid) for example, though I don't know if it's worth it. But definitely something to keep in mind. Pentavus and Tetravus I think are a little too expensive considering the mana-woes I already have. Although they are good in conjunction with Back from the Brink. Nuisance Engine is a little too slow for my tastes, and I did consider Genesis Chamber, but I question the idea of holding back all of my creatures until I draw the Chamber to get the most mileage out of it. I looked at Sharding Sphinx too, but none of my creatures can effectively deal damage so this is not a good plan.
If you're willing to go for another color or use colored spells, there are powerful token producing cards outside of straight artifacts, like Darien, King of Kjeldor, Sprout Swarm, etc..
Ultimately I think Saproling Symbiosis is the best card for additional token producing. I can also animate lands as another source of creatures via Living Plane/Nature's Revolt, but I think Symbiosis is a better plan at the moment.
4) There's not enough lands/mana sources. At all. 18 is not enough to cast cards that require 66% of the mana available in the deck. Affinity runs more mana sources (15-16 lands plus 3-4 Opal and 3-4 Springleaf Drum) yet doesn't run 6 mana spells that they *need* to cast in order to win. Another significant problem I was running into was being stuck at 2-3 lands forever that were in my opener and not being able to get enough mana to cast things like Thirst for Knowledge early when I needed to, but I did finally get the Brink out off a Tolarian Academy in the second game. Overall I think 22+ would be a better fit since you need to flat-out cast a 4 and 6 mana spell, and Tolaria West isn't always going to be something you draw (or have the mana to activate when you DO draw it). There's a 44% chance of getting a Tolaria West by turn 7 (not counting the draw spells, it's in the low 50s if you cast a couple)
The mana argument is a little confusing. I'm basically running the same setup as affinity - 16 lands + (4~6 of Mox Opal and Springleaf Drum). The 6-mana should not really be an issue especially because you can fetch mana with Artificer's Intuition.
However, I did at one point consider a Lotus Bloom strategy for more mana with Reshape to fetch the Bloom. Also, can you imagine fetching 4 copies of Lotus Bloom off Artificer's Intuition? Reshape also opens up Silver-bullet strategies and also can get the aforementioned Ensnaring Bridge, Silent Arbiter, etc (though it is mana intensive). Also something to keep in mind as I continue updating the deck.
I think fixing the draw spells will also fix the mana issue. Skullclamp as a 1-of is definitely now something to consider. I also did consider Ancestral Visions which is cheap to cast.
Anyway, I probably misplayed the deck severely or something, but I did not have a great time with it, and those are my suggestions.
I don't think you misplayed the deck, but rather you played it against some overpowered decks. The deck does have issues, but I think if you played against a less-powerful deck you may have had more fun with it.
I really wish I had more money to add to this deck to expand the manabase and whanot. Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives would have been nice continuous disruption, especially if I could get copies of Glimmervoid. With that and Springleaf Drum Sunburst would never really be an issue.
I appreciate the comments so thank you - I'll be updating the decklist in the days to come. Lots of stuff to reconsider!
Meta is always a prevalent issue - from the 60+ decks I have it ranges from the jankiest decks to a mid-level deck. I think all of my decks are viable of winning at least 25%~50% of the time, but certainly not against Modern Zoo. This deck would never win against a deck like that. I design with my casual playgroup in mind which has a relatively low power level, so decks like these can succeed.
Well, saying that it was basically Modern Zoo was probably talking too highly of it, but the deck had the creature base, but not the mana base lol. Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Qasali Pridemage, Woolly Thoctar, etc. made it up. There wasn't anything I saw that was higher than 3 mana, so I don't feel I stood much of a chance from the get-go.
You mention the draw %, and while I won't look into them myself, I want to know if these percentages have taken all the deck thinning into account? The deck significantly thins out the deck via Artificer's Intuition - at least 3~4 times per turn if not more. But I think running 3 copies of Back from the Brink & Epic Struggle is really redundant and would make this deck worse. I thought 7 good draw spells + deck thinning would have sufficed, but perhaps not. I will have to look into this a little more.
I'd have to do some figuring, but it'd take activating the Intuition about 16 times before there'd be a noticeable increase in card quality. However, activating the Intuition 3-4 times a turn is far too hopeful considering the low number of mana sources and the fact that Intuition doesn't affect the field at all, so you're going to be fetching creatures to block with against aggressive decks, and not just lands once a turn (so it's kind of like you're always a land behind because you're having to fetch one to play). It'd be more realistic to think of it as once or twice per turn, especially in turns leading up to five since you might actually need to pay mana to do something else, as the first things nonlands I fetched were Meekstone and Dead-Iron Sledge.
I did include Dead-Iron Sledge as a method of killing creatures, although it's not particularly effective I'm sure. It's true that this deck really does not pressure the opponent actively so that is definitely a concern. I think Wash Out is a good idea, although it does clash with Meekstone and untapping your opponent's creatures.
Well, it was just an idea as an immediate way to go, "Please don't kill me!" For something that works with Meekstone, there's always Turnabout, Deluge, Cryptic Command, etc.. I didn't even think about that, lol.
Ensnaring Bridge might actually be a really solid idea. You can't tutor for it, but a couple copies of it could have changed the games I played drastically.
Skullclamp was a card I considered during design but I wrote it off as it seemed way too broken. Myr Servitor + Skullclamp is of course really great, and it would also deter the opponents from attacking. As a 1-of it may be passable, so it is now something to be considered to make the deck viable. The draw stats I mentioned before as well, but I don't think you're taking the deck thinning into account.
Just to be clear, I took out a hypergeometric calculator just to see if my passing up of thinning would actually be anything relevant. Even if you get an extra 10 cards out of your deck with Artificer's Intuition by the third turn (impossible, but I put sample size at 20 lol) your chances of drawing one of the two cards in question is still only 45% (which, that's for only one of the two cards). The percentages don't really get decent until 20-30 cards are thinned out of the deck, which in a 1v1 game might be really hard to do since that's an ass ton of mana spent over at least six-eight turns. I'm thinking about trying this out in multiplayer instead of 1v1, which will probably lead to their being much less pressure on actually getting the combination out and drawing every creature in the deck.
Saproling Symbiosis is a fantastic idea. I'd mention Rhys the Redeemed, but he has the same problem as any other token copy generator and only being useful once Brink is out.
I'm aware of the combo and that Thopter Foundry is a good card, but I really dislike running well-known (and banned) combos like Foundry + Sword of the Meek.
To be fair, Sword of the Meek is only banned in one format, and I stated that you probably would only want to run Thopter Foundry since it has great synergy with the rest of your deck and would enable Skullclamp on your thicker blockers. Plus gain life. Plus make more blockers. I wouldn't ignore it just because Sword of the Meek exists!
I added 2 copies of Thopter Foundry in, and seriously, you should try it. I actually held my own against a soldier deck like a champ (... I was also using 1 Skullclamp. Sue me, lol). I only gained around 10 life with it, but equipping a nearly-dead Shield Sphere with Skullclamp and then sacrificing it after it's blocking an attacker, drawing 2 cards, gaining 1 life and then having a flying blocker too is a nice feeling though it does take some setup, lol, but it only cost a couple of mana. The whole thing was assembled relatively quickly, and my hand was almost always full for once
The mana argument is a little confusing. I'm basically running the same setup as affinity - 16 lands + (4~6 of Mox Opal and Springleaf Drum). The 6-mana should not really be an issue especially because you can fetch mana with Artificer's Intuition.
... Artificer's Intuition gets destroyed. Your mana production should not be limited to another card in the deck that everything else hinges on, is what I was saying. I put the thing about Qasali Pridemage in the wrong spot (I should have put it in my paragraph with the mana woes but my thoughts were out of sequence, my bad), but after seeing the deck play out once the simplest thing to do is destroy the Intuition. As stated, I still got a Back from the Brink out in the second game, but it wasn't easy. The deck plays like Defensive Affinity with no defense, and I really didn't like that in order to get anywhere I HAD to have an Intuition, and even my mana was limited by it.
However, I did at one point consider a Lotus Bloom strategy for more mana with Reshape to fetch the Bloom. Also, can you imagine fetching 4 copies of Lotus Bloom off Artificer's Intuition? Reshape also opens up Silver-bullet strategies and also can get the aforementioned Ensnaring Bridge, Silent Arbiter, etc (though it is mana intensive). Also something to keep in mind as I continue updating the deck.
I wouldn't bother with Reshape to fetch Lotus Bloom (this isn't an explosive combo deck like that Second Sunrise combo, it kind of grinds its way into a win), but fetching Ensnaring Bridge would be better.
I think fixing the draw spells will also fix the mana issue. Skullclamp as a 1-of is definitely now something to consider. I also did consider Ancestral Visions which is cheap to cast.
I mostly kept to <$5 to recommend since I try to be mindful of budget (people seem to get annoyed by recommending $20/set cards), but if you have Ancestral Vision it'd probably be fantastic here since it'd give you another thing to do turn 1. Spending 3 on Thirst for Knowledge mid-game was a pain, even if I knew I needed to draw right then.
I don't think you misplayed the deck, but rather you played it against some overpowered decks. The deck does have issues, but I think if you played against a less-powerful deck you may have had more fun with it.
That's definitely a possibility too. I'm just hoping that the experience could aid you a little bit and see what might come from it.
Sorry if this is a necro but it's only the 2nd page anyway.
Looking at this again, perhaps Creeping Renaissance is the better choice over Back from the Brink. It basically does everything Back from the Brink does - getting back all of my graveyard creatures to recast them (at the same cost), it's also cheaper by 1-mana, and has Flashback for multiple usage. Also allows me to get back whatever permanent has been destroyed, or fuel more Artificer's Intuition activations.
Additionally it actually works with Alchemist's Refuge unlike Brink so I can play out my entire combo at the end of my opponent's turn...
So I've slightly changed the deck. It no longer focuses on Back from the Brink (which is a shame because it was the main combo). But I've replaced it with something that essentially does the same thing a little better - Creeping Renaissance.
I've also put in 2 Garruk Wildspeaker as a mana accelerant, token producer, and alternate win-condition by swarming if I don't have enough creatures. Saproling Symbiosis was also added.
Lastly, I also put in a copy of Gaea's Cradle - this card is ridiculously expensive in paper, so I probably will just proxy it.
But for now I'm going to try this decklist. If draw continues to be a problem or the deck is still too weak, looks like I'll have to defer to Skullclamp.
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Tree of Tales
4 Khalni Garden
2 Tolaria West
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Alchemist's Refuge
Creatures 21
1 Trinket Mage
4 Myr Servitor
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Shield Sphere
4 Phyrexian Walker
2 Mox Opal
4 Springleaf Drum
1 Meekstone
1 Dead-Iron Sledge
Enchantments 8
4 Artificer's Intuition
2 Back from the Brink
2 Epic Struggle
Spells 7
4 Thoughtcast
3 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Reshape
2 Lotus Bloom
2 Ground Seal
1 Sol Ring
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Pithing Needle
1 Expedition Map
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Riddlesmith
1 Jace's Archivist
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Parallel Evolution
So the main combo is Back from the Brink + Epic Struggle, fueled by 0-mana cost creatures and Artificer's Intuition to fill the graveyard. The amazing part of this deck is that you can just combo out the turn you play Back from the Brink, provided you have enough creatures in play/graveyard. The limited time your opponent has to respond to this combo is absolutely key.
Card Explanations:
Myr Servitor - No brainer combination with Artificer's Intuition. Chump block all day long.
The 0-mana creatures are important not only for their mana cost, but also because they don't make Epic Struggle irrelevant. Their 0-power means you're not going to win by attacking, making Epic Struggle the only option.
Trinket Mage - Fetch utility artifacts or late game get a 2nd creature to add to the Epic Struggle count.
Artificer's Intuition - Gets every artifact in this deck into the graveyard (at instant speed!). Amazing constant discard outlet for Back from the Brink.
Back from the Brink - This could be something like Open the Vaults or Twilight's Call, but then you can run high-CMC cards which means you won't be winning with Epic Struggle. Back from the Brink forces you to play with low-CMC cards, making it a perfect pairing with Epic Struggle.
Thoughtcast & Thirst for Knowledge - Good card draw to fuel Artificer's Intuition.
Meekstone - Hold back dangerous creatures...none of the deck's creatures get affected by this.
Dead-Iron Sledge - An odd inclusion, but I think it can work as a defensive card. Better than Basilisk Collar because a lot of the creatures have 0-power.
Tolarian Academy - Obviously broken, but I think a deck like this warrants an inclusion as a 1-of.
Alchemist's Refuge - Flash in Epic Struggle at the end of the opponent's turn for a surprise win!
Tolaria West - Fetches the aforementioned lands and a 0-CMC creature to add to the Epic Struggle count.
Mox Opal - Free mana is always good.
Springleaf Drum - Artificer's Intuition[/card] is quite mana-intensive, so accelerants like these are needed.
Sideboard is just some more ideas I had for this deck but didn't include in the end. I'd love to hear your comments and suggestions for the deck.
R: Copypasta Sauce {Browbeat}
UR: Mana Cache , One Spell to Bind them All {Magnetic Theft}
UG: Epic Struggle , All-In-Poison {Metamorphosis}
UW: Planar Overlay , Decree of the Bailiff {Saprazzan Bailiff}
BG: Thought Gorger , Dark Chroma {Umbra Stalker}
UBR: Dwarven Shrine
WUBRG: Dissipation Field , Maelstrom Nexus
but with cmc 0 creatures is the first time i see, cool
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The room was, "Super Casual Deck Test" on Cockatrice, if the guy I played against frequents this site. If you are, know that I didn't mean for super casual to be Modern Zoo with Wild Nacatls, lol. Good games though, chap.
Game 1, I couldn't draw into Epic Struggle, Back from the Brink or anything else that would actually help me win. I got 3 Artificer's Intuitions, though, lmao. The game took a while because I always had blockers, but could not effectively deal enough damage to win or win without the combo, of which I only had a 22% chance of drawing both of them anyway (without draw spells, of which I cast 2 Thoughtcast and still got nowhere, so probably 26-28% after those are taken into account). When I hit 5 life I was nailed by a Lightning Bolt and a Lightning Helix, lol.
Game 2, I mulliganed to five to get a decent opener and drew into Back from the Brink, but didn't get Epic Struggle. It wouldn't have mattered anyway, as I simply could not get more than 10 creatures in play regularly (I think at one time I had 12, even using the Brink's ability just to prolong the game so I wouldn't die which was necessary twice before finally getting killed by Rhox War Monks and Bolts, so I was on a short clock anyway ;_;
So, I'll list off a couple problems I had off the bat, and if you feel that I missed the point then feel free to ignore them:
1) Not enough ways to interact with an opponent. When facing down a field of a 3/3, a 3/4 with lifelink, a 2/3, a 5/4, etc., I desperately wanted to do something to kill some of those creatures or speed up the combination so that they ultimately wouldn't matter. As it stands now, that wasn't an option, and even through blocking to keep out of Lightning Bolt range (I typically didn't block until turn 4-5, when the combat damage would have been lethal or put me below 7 because I feared a Bolt followed by a Helix) it ultimately didn't matter and I was just going to eventually succumb to inevitability. I'm thinking something like Wash Out might be beneficial, as Evacuation's higher mana cost is a bit prohibitive even if it is an instant (I might just be saying this because I played this against someone's casual Zoo monstrosity, but the difference between turn 4 and turn 5 is huge). Propaganda might also be a nice way to stave off death.
2) Not enough draw. With only 2 copies each of the necessary spells with which to combo, the chance of having either in your opening hand is only 22%, significantly less to get both. By turn 7, the chance of drawing into both is still in the 20% range unless you cast 3+ draw spells, which means 2-3 out of every 4 games you're going to go without the combo, but the combo is the only means the deck has to win. That's a bother, so my suggestion is easily Skullclamp. Tutorable through the Intuition, and it should give you enough draw capability to assemble the combo more often, hopefully.
3) There doesn't seem to be enough creatures to make the combo work, which seems like a bad idea considering the combo is the only way to win. It's required to get 80% of the creatures in the deck in order to combo out and that's including Khalni Garden. That's a pretty big problem, as a combo needing more than half of anything needs significant aid in bringing that out. Even with Artificer's Intuition, exchanging 1 artifact creature for another still required several turns and when blocking needs to come into play because you can't do much each turn, 21+4 just isn't enough. Again, Skullclamp might help (though the only good targets for it as it stands are the Servitor and Memnite, though that could easily be changed), but it might also be beneficial to look into cards that produce tokens as even when the creatures are drawn it doesn't change the fact that you'll need to block at some point even with Meekstone (which didn't seem to do much since this guy had reach lol. I probably could have been fine if not for his Lightning Bolts and Lightning Helixes), and other decks run removal to kill creatures, enchantments and artifacts so getting your combo stopped that easily makes me a sad panda (Qasali Pridemage, for example) because opposing decks can reach lethal range pretty quickly even just swinging once and going off the topdeck.
Thopter Foundry, for example, would give you the option to make flying blockers and gain life, then Back from the Brink would let you recreate your sacrificed artifact creature (toss Skullclamp into this scenario and it sounds like the possibility of survival is likely). Sword of the Meek and Thopter Foundry is a tried and true combo (if you don't know of it, just ask), but you may wish to abstain from a combination that would basically win without needing your other combo at all, though Thopter Foundry by itself could still be extremely helpful. There's Pentavus/Tetravus, and while they're expensive, they can also grind you to 20 and provide blockers (though, they get better with Doubling Season or something). Nuisance Engine, even, may help. Sharding Sphinx would require combat damage but could produce a lot of tokens, though I'm guessing you wish to avoid the combat phase. If you don't like any of the above token cards, consider Genesis chamber (though it produces tokens for your opponents too).
If you're willing to go for another color or use colored spells, there are powerful token producing cards outside of straight artifacts, like Darien, King of Kjeldor, Sprout Swarm, etc..
4) There's not enough lands/mana sources. At all. 18 is not enough to cast cards that require 66% of the mana available in the deck. Affinity runs more mana sources (15-16 lands plus 3-4 Opal and 3-4 Springleaf Drum) yet doesn't run 6 mana spells that they *need* to cast in order to win. Another significant problem I was running into was being stuck at 2-3 lands forever that were in my opener and not being able to get enough mana to cast things like Thirst for Knowledge early when I needed to, but I did finally get the Brink out off a Tolarian Academy in the second game. Overall I think 22+ would be a better fit since you need to flat-out cast a 4 and 6 mana spell, and Tolaria West isn't always going to be something you draw (or have the mana to activate when you DO draw it). There's a 44% chance of getting a Tolaria West by turn 7 (not counting the draw spells, it's in the low 50s if you cast a couple)
Anyway, I probably misplayed the deck severely or something, but I did not have a great time with it, and those are my suggestions.
Sig and Avatar drawn by me.
Everything I post on this forum is on a pure theoretical basis. I imagine the interactions in my head while deckbuilding. This of course means there are times where my thinking is off the mark. I built this in about 45 minutes of brainstorming and then immediately posted it here so I haven't had a chance to play with the deck with others. I do try it out in solitaire mode just to see how it would play out from my side, and it seemed to work at least on a fundamental level.
Meta is always a prevalent issue - from the 60+ decks I have it ranges from the jankiest decks to a mid-level deck. I think all of my decks are viable of winning at least 25%~50% of the time, but certainly not against Modern Zoo. This deck would never win against a deck like that. I design with my casual playgroup in mind which has a relatively low power level, so decks like these can succeed.
You mention the draw %, and while I won't look into them myself, I want to know if these percentages have taken all the deck thinning into account? The deck significantly thins out the deck via Artificer's Intuition - at least 3~4 times per turn if not more. But I think running 3 copies of Back from the Brink & Epic Struggle is really redundant and would make this deck worse. I thought 7 good draw spells + deck thinning would have sufficed, but perhaps not. I will have to look into this a little more.
The mulligan thing is not really an issue in my playgroup as we do allow 1~2 free mulligans depending on the deck's power level. The creature issue was definitely something I was mulling over after posting the deck. It's an obvious issue, but one that's rather difficult to solve properly. More on it below -
I did include Dead-Iron Sledge as a method of killing creatures, although it's not particularly effective I'm sure. It's true that this deck really does not pressure the opponent actively so that is definitely a concern. I think Wash Out is a good idea, although it does clash with Meekstone and untapping your opponent's creatures.
I'd like to keep the defensive cards as artifacts so Ensnaring Bridge, Silent Arbiter and Crawlspace seem like good considerations. Cryptic Command also seems good in conjunction with Meekstone, and it can double as combo protection/draw.
Skullclamp was a card I considered during design but I wrote it off as it seemed way too broken. Myr Servitor + Skullclamp is of course really great, and it would also deter the opponents from attacking. As a 1-of it may be passable, so it is now something to be considered to make the deck viable. The draw stats I mentioned before as well, but I don't think you're taking the deck thinning into account.
As I said before this is a big issue. I think Saproling Symbiosis can help a great deal - especially because it can be played at Instant Speed. Parallel Evolution can also work, but it's only useful after Back from the Brink comes down. I originally stayed away from mass-token producers like Spider Spawning as I think you can just win via tokens attacking that way, but Saproling Symbiosis as a 1 or 2-of does not detract from the main combo too much.
I'm aware of the combo and that Thopter Foundry is a good card, but I really dislike running well-known (and banned) combos like Foundry + Sword of the Meek. Splashing White can be possible (via Glimmervoid) for example, though I don't know if it's worth it. But definitely something to keep in mind. Pentavus and Tetravus I think are a little too expensive considering the mana-woes I already have. Although they are good in conjunction with Back from the Brink. Nuisance Engine is a little too slow for my tastes, and I did consider Genesis Chamber, but I question the idea of holding back all of my creatures until I draw the Chamber to get the most mileage out of it. I looked at Sharding Sphinx too, but none of my creatures can effectively deal damage so this is not a good plan.
Ultimately I think Saproling Symbiosis is the best card for additional token producing. I can also animate lands as another source of creatures via Living Plane/Nature's Revolt, but I think Symbiosis is a better plan at the moment.
The mana argument is a little confusing. I'm basically running the same setup as affinity - 16 lands + (4~6 of Mox Opal and Springleaf Drum). The 6-mana should not really be an issue especially because you can fetch mana with Artificer's Intuition.
However, I did at one point consider a Lotus Bloom strategy for more mana with Reshape to fetch the Bloom. Also, can you imagine fetching 4 copies of Lotus Bloom off Artificer's Intuition? Reshape also opens up Silver-bullet strategies and also can get the aforementioned Ensnaring Bridge, Silent Arbiter, etc (though it is mana intensive). Also something to keep in mind as I continue updating the deck.
I think fixing the draw spells will also fix the mana issue. Skullclamp as a 1-of is definitely now something to consider. I also did consider Ancestral Visions which is cheap to cast.
I don't think you misplayed the deck, but rather you played it against some overpowered decks. The deck does have issues, but I think if you played against a less-powerful deck you may have had more fun with it.
I really wish I had more money to add to this deck to expand the manabase and whanot. Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives would have been nice continuous disruption, especially if I could get copies of Glimmervoid. With that and Springleaf Drum Sunburst would never really be an issue.
I appreciate the comments so thank you - I'll be updating the decklist in the days to come. Lots of stuff to reconsider!
R: Copypasta Sauce {Browbeat}
UR: Mana Cache , One Spell to Bind them All {Magnetic Theft}
UG: Epic Struggle , All-In-Poison {Metamorphosis}
UW: Planar Overlay , Decree of the Bailiff {Saprazzan Bailiff}
BG: Thought Gorger , Dark Chroma {Umbra Stalker}
UBR: Dwarven Shrine
WUBRG: Dissipation Field , Maelstrom Nexus
Well, saying that it was basically Modern Zoo was probably talking too highly of it, but the deck had the creature base, but not the mana base lol. Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Qasali Pridemage, Woolly Thoctar, etc. made it up. There wasn't anything I saw that was higher than 3 mana, so I don't feel I stood much of a chance from the get-go.
I'd have to do some figuring, but it'd take activating the Intuition about 16 times before there'd be a noticeable increase in card quality. However, activating the Intuition 3-4 times a turn is far too hopeful considering the low number of mana sources and the fact that Intuition doesn't affect the field at all, so you're going to be fetching creatures to block with against aggressive decks, and not just lands once a turn (so it's kind of like you're always a land behind because you're having to fetch one to play). It'd be more realistic to think of it as once or twice per turn, especially in turns leading up to five since you might actually need to pay mana to do something else, as the first things nonlands I fetched were Meekstone and Dead-Iron Sledge.
Well, it was just an idea as an immediate way to go, "Please don't kill me!" For something that works with Meekstone, there's always Turnabout, Deluge, Cryptic Command, etc.. I didn't even think about that, lol.
Ensnaring Bridge might actually be a really solid idea. You can't tutor for it, but a couple copies of it could have changed the games I played drastically.
Just to be clear, I took out a hypergeometric calculator just to see if my passing up of thinning would actually be anything relevant. Even if you get an extra 10 cards out of your deck with Artificer's Intuition by the third turn (impossible, but I put sample size at 20 lol) your chances of drawing one of the two cards in question is still only 45% (which, that's for only one of the two cards). The percentages don't really get decent until 20-30 cards are thinned out of the deck, which in a 1v1 game might be really hard to do since that's an ass ton of mana spent over at least six-eight turns. I'm thinking about trying this out in multiplayer instead of 1v1, which will probably lead to their being much less pressure on actually getting the combination out and drawing every creature in the deck.
Saproling Symbiosis is a fantastic idea. I'd mention Rhys the Redeemed, but he has the same problem as any other token copy generator and only being useful once Brink is out.
To be fair, Sword of the Meek is only banned in one format, and I stated that you probably would only want to run Thopter Foundry since it has great synergy with the rest of your deck and would enable Skullclamp on your thicker blockers. Plus gain life. Plus make more blockers. I wouldn't ignore it just because Sword of the Meek exists!
I added 2 copies of Thopter Foundry in, and seriously, you should try it. I actually held my own against a soldier deck like a champ (... I was also using 1 Skullclamp. Sue me, lol). I only gained around 10 life with it, but equipping a nearly-dead Shield Sphere with Skullclamp and then sacrificing it after it's blocking an attacker, drawing 2 cards, gaining 1 life and then having a flying blocker too is a nice feeling though it does take some setup, lol, but it only cost a couple of mana. The whole thing was assembled relatively quickly, and my hand was almost always full for once
... Artificer's Intuition gets destroyed. Your mana production should not be limited to another card in the deck that everything else hinges on, is what I was saying. I put the thing about Qasali Pridemage in the wrong spot (I should have put it in my paragraph with the mana woes but my thoughts were out of sequence, my bad), but after seeing the deck play out once the simplest thing to do is destroy the Intuition. As stated, I still got a Back from the Brink out in the second game, but it wasn't easy. The deck plays like Defensive Affinity with no defense, and I really didn't like that in order to get anywhere I HAD to have an Intuition, and even my mana was limited by it.
I wouldn't bother with Reshape to fetch Lotus Bloom (this isn't an explosive combo deck like that Second Sunrise combo, it kind of grinds its way into a win), but fetching Ensnaring Bridge would be better.
I mostly kept to <$5 to recommend since I try to be mindful of budget (people seem to get annoyed by recommending $20/set cards), but if you have Ancestral Vision it'd probably be fantastic here since it'd give you another thing to do turn 1. Spending 3 on Thirst for Knowledge mid-game was a pain, even if I knew I needed to draw right then.
That's definitely a possibility too. I'm just hoping that the experience could aid you a little bit and see what might come from it.
Sig and Avatar drawn by me.
Looking at this again, perhaps Creeping Renaissance is the better choice over Back from the Brink. It basically does everything Back from the Brink does - getting back all of my graveyard creatures to recast them (at the same cost), it's also cheaper by 1-mana, and has Flashback for multiple usage. Also allows me to get back whatever permanent has been destroyed, or fuel more Artificer's Intuition activations.
Additionally it actually works with Alchemist's Refuge unlike Brink so I can play out my entire combo at the end of my opponent's turn...
Is there something I'm overlooking/underlooking?
Edit: Updated Decklist
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Tree of Tales
4 Khalni Garden
2 Tolaria West
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Alchemist's Refuge
Creatures 21
1 Trinket Mage
4 Myr Servitor
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Shield Sphere
4 Phyrexian Walker
2 Mox Opal
4 Springleaf Drum
1 Meekstone
1 Dead-Iron Sledge
Enchantments 6
4 Artificer's Intuition
2 Epic Struggle
Spells 7
4 Thoughtcast
2 Creeping Renaissance
1 Saproling Symbiosis
Planeswalkers 2
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Back from the Brink
1 Skullclamp
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Reshape
1 Lotus Bloom
1 Ground Seal
1 Sol Ring
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Pithing Needle
1 Expedition Map
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Riddlesmith
1 Jace's Archivist
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Parallel Evolution
So I've slightly changed the deck. It no longer focuses on Back from the Brink (which is a shame because it was the main combo). But I've replaced it with something that essentially does the same thing a little better - Creeping Renaissance.
I've also put in 2 Garruk Wildspeaker as a mana accelerant, token producer, and alternate win-condition by swarming if I don't have enough creatures. Saproling Symbiosis was also added.
Lastly, I also put in a copy of Gaea's Cradle - this card is ridiculously expensive in paper, so I probably will just proxy it.
Looking at the deck one more time I realized that this deck can be an Epic Struggle deck based around Survival of the Fittest instead of Artificer's Intuition. On top of that this could fit into the Vengevine + Basking Rootwalla Survival deck that got banned in Legacy. It would certainly make the deck more viable and scary.
But for now I'm going to try this decklist. If draw continues to be a problem or the deck is still too weak, looks like I'll have to defer to Skullclamp.
R: Copypasta Sauce {Browbeat}
UR: Mana Cache , One Spell to Bind them All {Magnetic Theft}
UG: Epic Struggle , All-In-Poison {Metamorphosis}
UW: Planar Overlay , Decree of the Bailiff {Saprazzan Bailiff}
BG: Thought Gorger , Dark Chroma {Umbra Stalker}
UBR: Dwarven Shrine
WUBRG: Dissipation Field , Maelstrom Nexus