Maybe you know a real cheap store but I think you would struggle to build it for less than $50. Petal, Rituals and Tendrils cost $40 and you still need fill out the rest of the deck.
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Manamorphose
4 Tendrils of Agony
4 Burning Wish now cost about $80 which is a real shame as they do add nice options to the deck.
I think a couple of things have gone up a couple of bucks recently. Right now I've got the whole of a non-Wish build in TCGPlayer for $62, it used to come in at $48 not too long ago.
EDIT: I will say that a lot of people already have some of these pieces laying around. A big one is Dark Rituals, many people have these laying around anyway or know someone who does. I starting playing back in Unlimited and have gone through tons of Rituals in my time and I could still probably wallpaper most of my house with left over Dark Rits, so paying $1/ea might be the easiest way to get them, but you can certainly find them in .10c bins or dozens of them in someone's old bulk collection at a yard sale for example.
I have tried 3 main deck Duress and if your meta is full of Blue decks it may be the way to go (or just run Silence main deck). The problem is they are difficult to cast effectively while going off. You can cast Duress T1-2 and then go off Turn 3.
Adding to what the Fluff said about going off later than turn 2; A dozen Goblins is quite a threat on Turn Two, however on Turn 4 or 5 many opponents have a well developed board and can kill several each turn so unless you really have swarmed, say 20+, they are just not good enough.
Yes, agreed that some Duress in the main is pretty much possible. I think it's just a matter what decks are present in large numbers in the meta. Duress is quite hepful against opponents with mainboard counterspells like Merfolk. But against most non-counterspell using aggro like Elves, and certain non-interactive combo opponent like a Belcher deck - it's better to be as fast as possible with Gitaxian Probe instead of Duress.
On another topic. It's a lot better that the opponent does not know that we are combo in game 1. So that those aggro decks who have anti combo creature card in the main won't mulligan for it, or mulligan for cards that will get it (e.g. Green Sun Zenith to find Gaddock Teeg).
Yes; I got a play set of Burning Wish for $30 only a year ago. It is getting a bit off topic but it is a shame that the Wish-version of this deck now costs about $150 which is more than Burn ($125) and almost as much as Belcher ($200).
It's nice that you got the wishes before the large price increase. For serious Legacy play.. I think it's better if someone spends money to build Established legacy decks like Burn or Belcher, since the cash cost would be similar. Tried to build this deck just for the fun of it, because I have most of the cards already.
And it could also be converted to a Pauper format deck by removing rares and uncommons, if Pauper becomes played in my area.
Definitely still the cheapest way to play Legacy Storm anyhow. Burn and Belcher are fine decks but if you really want to play Storm, and you want to do it while being somewhat competitive against 'real' Legacy decks, this is still a pretty big bargain, even with the Wishes. Looking at that 'Price of Legacy decks' thread, most clock in over $1,000.
I guess you're right. This is still one of the cheaper storm combo deck in legacy.
Not much more to say except hoping that we get something good in Gatecrash for this deck.
I doubt it but you never know; there might be some sort of mana-fixer or a good Red Looting card.
I'm hoping / dreaming for that.
Another Manamorphose, or an efficient card draw in red would help this deck a lot.
For Legacy the Meta was a bit trash this week but I played my Storm deck for some fun.
Round 1: vs Green Ramp
Game 1 - 14 Goblins, he casts a 2/2 Hydra. It has become an 8/8 by the time he dies.
Game 2 - ToA for 12 and 14 Goblins on Turn 2. He concedes.
Round 2: vs Standard Selesney.
Game 1 - Turn 2 Thalia and I can do nothing.
Game 2 - Turn 2 I probe and he does not have Thalia and I draw a Geothermal so decide to wait for T3. He top-decks Thalia and it is all over...
Round 3: vs Naya Lifegain.
Game 1: 18 Goblins Turn 3 and he scoops.
Game 2: I draw Gemstone Mine half way through going off turn 2 so I manage ToA for 20 rather than 18; he kept the wrong mana open so can not Lightning Helix to stay alive.
Even if the meta isn't very competitive. Playing with real people is still better for practice than goldfishing.
Mono Green ramp is no match for Sac Land Tendrils unless he sideboards aggressively.
Too bad with the Thalia using deck, I believe some Dread of Night in the sideboard would be helpful if there are several decks like that in your meta. Would suggest something like -3 Probe +3 DoN for game 2.
Against the Naya lifegain, I think his lifegain isn't a problem. Since your version can wish into Past in Flames for a large enough ToA or EtW. The real danger is that he might also have Thalia, because the soldier is in his colors. Good thing you were able to finish him off right away.
I know what you mean. I had ToA sitting in my card box for years. It was a card I really liked but had no deck to play it in. That was why I built my own storm deck and then rebuilt it into the more competitive Sac-Lands version.
Well, at least now your ToA can finally see some action. For me, it's Sulfur Vent and Geothermal. They've been in a bag doing nothing for years - now, they're among the important pieces of this storm deck.
Naya Player (that sounds funny) sideboarded in Thalia, but never got a second turn.
Maybe it's some strange Zoo deck that has a lot of lifegain cards?
Your meta seems to be filled with mostly homebrew aggro decks. Good place for using a budget combo deck like the one we have here.
-- Anti-Blue
2 Silence
2 Orim Chant
Pretty good anti-blue tech you have there.
Silence and Chant are "must be countered" spells for blue decks.
If your list can produce green often enough, then Autumn's Veil is an option too.
-- Anti-Hate Bear (Thalia, Teeg, et el) and you can wish for one.
4 Pyroclasm
Just an opinion on Pyroclasm as anti-hatebear card. I think it is indeed one of the better options, can be wished for and will kill Teeg + other 2 toughness creatures standing beside him. However, Thalia is a different bear that is hard to answer with Pyroclasm, because it takes plenty of mana to cast pyroclasm when she's already in play. Dread of Night is a more comfortable answer because it cost only one mana, and it can be cast even when there's no Thalia yet.
--Wishboard Enables
1 Past In Flames
1 Ad Nausiam
I've never tested it, but I have the feeling that Ad Nauseam will cause us to lose if used. Sac Land Tendrils is already semi-suicide with Probes, Whispers, and Signs. The added lifeloss from Ad Nauseam would be too much to handle.
I guess a Sac Land Tendrils with wishes is really more versatile in finding answers to problems than one without wishes. If there's ever a lot of Belcher players in your meta, Mind Funeral is a good wish target against them, because they only have one or two land in their entire deck.
I've been considering replacing my pyroclasm in the board with dismember. Very rarely do I have to combo off with multiple hate bears out, and dismember is so damn easy to cast once you've got it that it's an amazing wish target.
Of course, that's very meta-dependant, but it's another good option.
It was a bad week and we had some new (to tournament) players as well. There are about 4 players with decks you would see at SCG (apart from Shocks instead of duals) and two of use with 30+ duals but I was the only one of them there last night. Usually we have Stoneblade, Delver, Burn every week and we have a combo-elf player as well who was using his Naya deck this week. It was just a very random night...
Combo Elves can be surprisingly fast. Goodluck.
Forgot to say on my last post. Since you seem to use EtW often as a win condition, perhaps there can be room for one Goblin War Strike in your sideboard as a wish target?
I'm just not sure under you would combo out, have the mana to cast Empty the Warrens, then Burning Wish, then Goblin War Strike, and not just cast Tendrils of Agony for Lethal? Would you just War Strike for less than lethal to make the clock quicker with the attacking goblins?
Pyroclams is a strong target as is Virtue's Ruin, Massacre (better if playing swamps) and Abrupt Decay for blue counterbalance, chalice of the void, hatebears.
I think you are better running 3x Dread of Night to sideboard in and leave pyro in the board. Its cheaper, it answers the creatures that really matter and you can use the mana a turn before instead of the combo turn so you will have an additional mana source to use on the combo turn.
Discard can be more than effective against blue as well if you find making white mana too hard. Use Duress + Cabal therapy and you can stay on color. Duress/Probe can help you make more effective use of cabal therapy as well.
Abrubt decay > maelstrom pulse.
I haven't been testing recently. But i don't know how effective Reforge the soul or Diminishing Returns would be for you guys. These would only be testable in the wish versions. I know they are extremely effective in TES, but i don't know if the lack of chrome mox /LED would be too much. But reforge is on color and from reading your goldfishing, it seems that you have an abundant amount of mana usually and a new 7 with your high threat density could really ramp up the storm counts and start making ToA kills more common or more ETW tokens consistently.
I'm just not sure under you would combo out, have the mana to cast Empty the Warrens, then Burning Wish, then Goblin War Strike, and not just cast Tendrils of Agony for Lethal? Would you just War Strike for less than lethal to make the clock quicker with the attacking goblins?
Bascially it can turn your clock down by 1-2 turns.
20 tokens, you kill instantly
10 < #tokens < 20 you win next turn instead of 2 turns later
your beating face with tokens and they drop something like say Batterskull or equipped Rhox War Monk you cannot race it anymore yet, they are at some life < #tokens, but your hand is only burning wish, so you cannot storm for lethal, bw -> GWS and you close a game out you may have otherwise lost.
I don't know if those reasons are good enough to run it. But just some situations that can occur where it matters.
I'm just not sure under you would combo out, have the mana to cast Empty the Warrens, then Burning Wish, then Goblin War Strike, and not just cast Tendrils of Agony for Lethal? Would you just War Strike for less than lethal to make the clock quicker with the attacking goblins?
Bascially it can turn your clock down by 1-2 turns.
20 tokens, you kill instantly
10 < #tokens < 20 you win next turn instead of 2 turns later
your beating face with tokens and they drop something like say Batterskull or equipped Rhox War Monk you cannot race it anymore yet, they are at some life < #tokens, but your hand is only burning wish, so you cannot storm for lethal, bw -> GWS and you close a game out you may have otherwise lost.
I don't know if those reasons are good enough to run it. But just some situations that can occur where it matters.
I've tested running two copies of Goblin War Strike in my wishless version of this deck. Didn't turn out too well, because GWS would sometimes turn up when it's not needed - like for example, when I'm going for a ToA finish.
Burning Wish version like the one Lyracian has can wish for the War Strike at the right time. And GWS doesn't have to be cast on the same turn as EtW in my opinion. Sorry, can't link to it anymore (it's buried somewhere in the Belcher thread). I remember seeing a Belcher tournament report where a Belcher player EtW for some goblins, and then Wish for a GWS after one or two turns as additional damage source.
I think you are better running 3x Dread of Night to sideboard in and leave pyro in the board. Its cheaper, it answers the creatures that really matter and you can use the mana a turn before instead of the combo turn so you will have an additional mana source to use on the combo turn.
Have to agree on that. Dread of Night has been quite useful to me so far. Not just Thalia, Dread of Night if cast early has the potential to slow down a deck that rely on several 1 toughness white creatures.
I was just thinking about it today. It seems most of us here who use this deck have some Duress on the sideboard. I know it will cost a little bit more money, but could it be useful to have some Unmask added to the Duress? Like for example a 2:2 split (2 Duress, 2 Unmask) or a 2:1 (2 Duress, 1 Unmask) in the sideboard.
1. It's a free spell that can be used on turn 1, even if we only a have a sac land on the first turn.
2. Can be used to discard anti-combo bears before they are cast.
1. Easily Dazed or Spell Pierced if we are on the draw,
2. 2 for 1 card disadvantage. A ritual or a spare ToA would have to be pitched for it.
3. It's possible that there are not enough black cards in the deck to support casting it for free.
The last Night's Whisper arrived from SCG a few days ago.
So I decided to do a little goldfishing to test if the fizzle rate is tolerable. I've colored the results for easy identification.. green means a turn 3 combo, blue is turn 2 combo, and red means a fizzle.
Hi. i loved the deck and ill try to build it but i have a question.
Why pyretic over desperate ritual? maybe you will almost never use it but having the option to splice could be nice.
I just didn't have Desperate Rituals. Well, the Pyretics perform nicely enough. And my budget to order things online is limited, so instead of ordering Desperate Rituals, I chose to order the more needed playset of Night's Whisper and Dread of Night from SCG.
In addtion to the previous 20 goldfish hands, I did another set of goldfishing using the same decklist about a day later. Colored for easy identification, green is turn 3, blue is turn 2, magenta is turn 1 - it can sometimes happen. And red is a fizzle.
1. Rite, Preordain, Petal, Sulfur, Pyre, Petal, Dark = Fizzle T2. Should have mulliganed a hand with only one draw spell.
2. Geo, Sulfur, Dark, Faithless, Petal , Manamorphose, Rite = 30 ToA T2
3. 2 Gemstone, EtW, Geo, Cabal, Manamorphose (mull to 6) = Fizzle T2.
4. Pyre, 2 Petal, Faithless, 2 Manamorphose, ToA = Fizzle T2. On the draw.
5. Pyre, Rite, Sulfur, EtW, Probe, Night, Petal = 20 gob T2
6. Cabal, Petal, 2 Preordain, Manamorphose, Sulfur, ToA = 14 Gob T2. This could have been a fizzle if preordain did not find another mana source.
7. Dark, 2 Star, 2 Pyre, ToA, Sulfur = 20 ToA T3
8. Cabal, Probe, Star, Preordain, 2 Gemstone, Geo = 22 ToA T3
9. 2 EtW, Preordain, 2 Sulfur, ToA, Dark = 16 Gob + 18 ToA T3
10. 2 Rite, Petal, Cabal, EtW, ToA, Geo = 14 Gob + 16 ToA T2
11. 2 Sulfur, Manamorphose, 2 Geo, Preordain, Petal = Fizzle T3
12. Probe, Sulfur, Rite, Night, Faithless, Petal, Manamorphose = 22 ToA T3
13. 2 Rite, Gemstone, EtW, ToA, Pyre, Manamorphose = 12 Gob T1. This is a lucky hand.
14. Cabal, 2 Pyre, 2 Sulfur, 2 Probe = 20 ToA T3
15. Pyre, Probe, 2 EtW, Rite, 2 Gemstone = 8 Gob T2
16. Sulfur, 2 Rite, Faithless, Pyre, 2 Manamorphose = 22 Gob T2
17. Probe, Faithless, 2 Gemstone, Sulfur, Manamorphose, Night = 20 ToA T2
18. EtW, Petal, 2 Cabal, Star, Dark, Probe = 16 Gob T1. Another lucky hand.
19. Petal, Sulfur, Cabal, Cabal, Dark, Probe, EtW (mull to 6) = 20 Gob T2
20. Faithless, Petal, Rite, Preordain, Probe, Night, Geo = 20 ToA T2
21. ToA, Sulfur, 2 Geo, Star, 2 EtW = Fizzle T3
22. Rite, Preordain, Manamorphose, ToA, 2 Cabal, Petal = 20 Gob + 22 ToA T1. On the draw.
23. Geo, Pyre, 2 Rite, Manamorphose, Gemstone, ToA = 12 ToA + 14 ToA T3
24. 2 Gemstone, Sign, Star, Dark, Cabal, Rite = 24 ToA T2
25. 2 Geo, Faithless, Preordain, Night, Dark (mull to 6) = Fizzle T3. Should have sacced only one geo and took R from the other one. Drawn red rituals from Night Whisper that I can't cast.
26. Probe, Preordain, Dark, Manamorphoise, Gemstone, Night, Petal = 22 ToA T2
27. Manamorphose, 2 Probe, Gemstone, Petal, Geo (mull to 6) = 20 ToA T3
28. Probe, Pyretic, Rite, Manamorphose, EtW, Petal, Star = 12 Gob T1. Almost fizzled, lucky that Probe found a Gemstone Mine.
29. EtW, Pyre, 2 Manamorphose, Geo, Faithless, Cabal = 22 Gob T2
30. Pyre, 3 Cabal, Dark, Night, Gemstone = Fizzle T2. Reached 11 storm and BBBBBRU in mana pool, but found no EtW or ToA.
31. Dark, Probe, EtW, Geo, Petal (mull to 5) = 8 Gob T2
32. Preordain, 2 Cabal, Night, EtW, Faithless, Geo = 20 Gob T3.
Nice results. Now we just have to work on getting that Fizzle rate down!
Thanks. I'm working both goldfish test, and testing with real people when my friends come over. Unfortunately, I can't really think of a good way to lower the fizzle rate some more. One way is to wait until turn 4, but that isn't really an acceptable method against most decks in legacy. Have to be as fast as possible at least on game 1, if we want to be semi-competitive. A few of those whom I've playtested with thought this is an expensive storm combo deck, when they got hit by ToA on my second turn. I just tell them that the deck can't really do that all the time, can fizzle, and the more comfortable time to combo is turn 3.
Do you always sac all your lands at the start and then cast spells? I try and leave sac'ing the second land as late as possible in case I do not need to.
Not really, sometimes I sac only one, and then take the single mana from the other.
What you said about saccing only one first is the right thing to do. I was already a bit fatigued from previous goldfishing, and didn't notice that I need the red from the other Geothermal. Mana can be expanded even by saccing only one geo, because that hand also has a Dark Ritual.
Hand that fizzled:
2 Geo, Faithless, Preordain, Night, Dark (mull to 6) = Fizzle T3. Should have sacced only one geo and took R from the other one. Drawn red rituals from Night Whisper that I can't cast.
I found my fourth Empty the Warrens and a Goblin Warstrike in my other box of cards so will be shuffling cards around to fit them in.
Played my Pox deck this week to a dissapointing 2-2 finish thanks to having to face off against Loxodon Smiter...
Perhaps you can post your latest Sac Land Tendrils list?
Smiter seems hard for a Pox deck. Well, 2-2 isn't bad in my opinion.
In an attempt to find another one mana library manipulation card for this deck. I tried using Index as a one of. It's not really a bad card in testing. However, this deck wants something that also draws a card like Preordain, Ponder, and Faithless Looting. Index rearranging the top 5 cards of the library simply isn't good enough.
In an attempt to find another one mana library manipulation card for this deck. I tried using Index as a one of. It's not really a bad card in testing. However, this deck wants something that also draws a card like Preordain, Ponder, and Faithless Looting. Index rearranging the top 5 cards of the library simply isn't good enough.
Generally with a combo deck, card disadvantage is not in our favor. Nor is having to always wait a turn to draw something, as it then opens you up to Surgical Extraction and other such annoying cards. Otherwise if you need to dig for an answer, cards like spoils of the vault and/or Plunge into darkness will serve you far better.
Generally with a combo deck, card disadvantage is not in our favor. Nor is having to always wait a turn to draw something, as it then opens you up to Surgical Extraction and other such annoying cards.
Yeah, the reason that Index wasn't good enough is because it didn't put a card into my hand.
Was actually testing what could be a possible replacement for the one-of Sign In Blood in my current list.
The card draw spells that I currently use are 4 Night's Whisper, 3 Faithless, 3 Preordain, 4 Probe, and the 1 Sign in Blood. Guess I should just increase the Preordain or the Faithless by one more.
Spoils of the Vault is strong. Sadly unusable in my previous testings. The games lost from too much life paid already outnumbered the wins that the card was able to provide.
The new Whispering Madness looks like it will go straight in the Wishboard. Might even be worth putting one main deck for extra draw. What does everyone else think? Unlikely to ever make use of Cipher, but it could end up on a Goblin Token...
Not sure why you'd do that instead of just putting Windfall in there instead. I've always been wary of it because if both you and your opponent are low on cards, it doesn't do much and kind of clogs up your hand. Also spending 3 mana on this and then having it FoW'd is pretty rough.
mainly because windfall is very banned in legacy. however, as it is two colors and costs 4 mana and still tends to be unreliable when we already have reforge the soul in our primary ritual colors which costs 1 more, but is always draw 7.
The new Whispering Madness looks like it will go straight in the Wishboard. Might even be worth putting one main deck for extra draw. What does everyone else think? Unlikely to ever make use of Cipher, but it could end up on a Goblin Token...
Whispering Madness 2UB Sorcery
Each player discards their hand and draws cards equal to the greatest number discarded this way.
Cipher (Then you may exile this spell card encoded on a creature you control. Whenever that creature deals combat damage to a player, its controller may cast a copy of this card without paying its mana cost.)
__________________
A hand refiller that looks like it has potential.
Should be at least given a chance in testing.
Most likely we would be using our hand faster than the opponent, so Whispering Madness can discard at least 4 cards from the opponent's hand (they get to refill their hand though) and we draw 4 = that's the same as getting the draw power of Infernal Contract, but we didn't pay any life. The problem I'm seeing is that U in the casting cost should make it a little difficult to cast, and being four mana will make it vulnerable to Spell Pierce and even Daze.
I think a couple of things have gone up a couple of bucks recently. Right now I've got the whole of a non-Wish build in TCGPlayer for $62, it used to come in at $48 not too long ago.
EDIT: I will say that a lot of people already have some of these pieces laying around. A big one is Dark Rituals, many people have these laying around anyway or know someone who does. I starting playing back in Unlimited and have gone through tons of Rituals in my time and I could still probably wallpaper most of my house with left over Dark Rits, so paying $1/ea might be the easiest way to get them, but you can certainly find them in .10c bins or dozens of them in someone's old bulk collection at a yard sale for example.
Yes, agreed that some Duress in the main is pretty much possible. I think it's just a matter what decks are present in large numbers in the meta. Duress is quite hepful against opponents with mainboard counterspells like Merfolk. But against most non-counterspell using aggro like Elves, and certain non-interactive combo opponent like a Belcher deck - it's better to be as fast as possible with Gitaxian Probe instead of Duress.
On another topic. It's a lot better that the opponent does not know that we are combo in game 1. So that those aggro decks who have anti combo creature card in the main won't mulligan for it, or mulligan for cards that will get it (e.g. Green Sun Zenith to find Gaddock Teeg).
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It's nice that you got the wishes before the large price increase. For serious Legacy play.. I think it's better if someone spends money to build Established legacy decks like Burn or Belcher, since the cash cost would be similar. Tried to build this deck just for the fun of it, because I have most of the cards already.
And it could also be converted to a Pauper format deck by removing rares and uncommons, if Pauper becomes played in my area.
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Not much more to say except hoping that we get something good in Gatecrash for this deck.
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I'm hoping / dreaming for that.
Another Manamorphose, or an efficient card draw in red would help this deck a lot.
Even if the meta isn't very competitive. Playing with real people is still better for practice than goldfishing.
Mono Green ramp is no match for Sac Land Tendrils unless he sideboards aggressively.
Too bad with the Thalia using deck, I believe some Dread of Night in the sideboard would be helpful if there are several decks like that in your meta. Would suggest something like -3 Probe +3 DoN for game 2.
Against the Naya lifegain, I think his lifegain isn't a problem. Since your version can wish into Past in Flames for a large enough ToA or EtW. The real danger is that he might also have Thalia, because the soldier is in his colors. Good thing you were able to finish him off right away.
Well, at least now your ToA can finally see some action. For me, it's Sulfur Vent and Geothermal. They've been in a bag doing nothing for years - now, they're among the important pieces of this storm deck.
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Maybe it's some strange Zoo deck that has a lot of lifegain cards?
Your meta seems to be filled with mostly homebrew aggro decks. Good place for using a budget combo deck like the one we have here.
Pretty good anti-blue tech you have there.
Silence and Chant are "must be countered" spells for blue decks.
If your list can produce green often enough, then Autumn's Veil is an option too.
Just an opinion on Pyroclasm as anti-hatebear card. I think it is indeed one of the better options, can be wished for and will kill Teeg + other 2 toughness creatures standing beside him. However, Thalia is a different bear that is hard to answer with Pyroclasm, because it takes plenty of mana to cast pyroclasm when she's already in play. Dread of Night is a more comfortable answer because it cost only one mana, and it can be cast even when there's no Thalia yet.
I've never tested it, but I have the feeling that Ad Nauseam will cause us to lose if used. Sac Land Tendrils is already semi-suicide with Probes, Whispers, and Signs. The added lifeloss from Ad Nauseam would be too much to handle.
I guess a Sac Land Tendrils with wishes is really more versatile in finding answers to problems than one without wishes. If there's ever a lot of Belcher players in your meta, Mind Funeral is a good wish target against them, because they only have one or two land in their entire deck.
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Of course, that's very meta-dependant, but it's another good option.
Combo Elves can be surprisingly fast. Goodluck.
Forgot to say on my last post. Since you seem to use EtW often as a win condition, perhaps there can be room for one Goblin War Strike in your sideboard as a wish target?
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You cannot wish for Ad Nauseum it is an instant
Pyroclams is a strong target as is Virtue's Ruin, Massacre (better if playing swamps) and Abrupt Decay for blue counterbalance, chalice of the void, hatebears.
I think you are better running 3x Dread of Night to sideboard in and leave pyro in the board. Its cheaper, it answers the creatures that really matter and you can use the mana a turn before instead of the combo turn so you will have an additional mana source to use on the combo turn.
Discard can be more than effective against blue as well if you find making white mana too hard. Use Duress + Cabal therapy and you can stay on color. Duress/Probe can help you make more effective use of cabal therapy as well.
Abrubt decay > maelstrom pulse.
I haven't been testing recently. But i don't know how effective Reforge the soul or Diminishing Returns would be for you guys. These would only be testable in the wish versions. I know they are extremely effective in TES, but i don't know if the lack of chrome mox /LED would be too much. But reforge is on color and from reading your goldfishing, it seems that you have an abundant amount of mana usually and a new 7 with your high threat density could really ramp up the storm counts and start making ToA kills more common or more ETW tokens consistently.
Bascially it can turn your clock down by 1-2 turns.
20 tokens, you kill instantly
10 < #tokens < 20 you win next turn instead of 2 turns later
your beating face with tokens and they drop something like say Batterskull or equipped Rhox War Monk you cannot race it anymore yet, they are at some life < #tokens, but your hand is only burning wish, so you cannot storm for lethal, bw -> GWS and you close a game out you may have otherwise lost.
I don't know if those reasons are good enough to run it. But just some situations that can occur where it matters.
UBRWDDFTWBRU
UBRWGTESGWRBU
I've tested running two copies of Goblin War Strike in my wishless version of this deck. Didn't turn out too well, because GWS would sometimes turn up when it's not needed - like for example, when I'm going for a ToA finish.
Burning Wish version like the one Lyracian has can wish for the War Strike at the right time. And GWS doesn't have to be cast on the same turn as EtW in my opinion. Sorry, can't link to it anymore (it's buried somewhere in the Belcher thread). I remember seeing a Belcher tournament report where a Belcher player EtW for some goblins, and then Wish for a GWS after one or two turns as additional damage source.
Have to agree on that. Dread of Night has been quite useful to me so far. Not just Thalia, Dread of Night if cast early has the potential to slow down a deck that rely on several 1 toughness white creatures.
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1. It's a free spell that can be used on turn 1, even if we only a have a sac land on the first turn.
2. Can be used to discard anti-combo bears before they are cast.
1. Easily Dazed or Spell Pierced if we are on the draw,
2. 2 for 1 card disadvantage. A ritual or a spare ToA would have to be pitched for it.
3. It's possible that there are not enough black cards in the deck to support casting it for free.
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So I decided to do a little goldfishing to test if the fizzle rate is tolerable. I've colored the results for easy identification.. green means a turn 3 combo, blue is turn 2 combo, and red means a fizzle.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
2 Chromatic Star
3 Preordain
3 Faithless Looting
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Sign in Blood
4 Night's Whisper
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Geothermal Crevice
4 Sulfur Vent
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Duress
4 Tomb of Urami
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Dread of Night
2 Pyroclasm
20 goldfish hands:
1. Geo, EtW, ToA, Dark, Manamorphose, Faithless, Cabal = 14 Gob T2
2. Night, EtW, ToA, Manamorphose, Preordain, Geo, Gemstone = 12 Gob T2
3. Dark, star, EtW, Rite, ToA, Probe, Gem = 12 Gob T2
4. Sulfur, Geo, EtW, Pyretic, Probe, Sign, Preordain = 20 Gob T3
5. 2 Pyretic, Cabal, ToA, Geo, Star (mull to 6) = Fizzle T3, only able to do 16 damage from ToA
6. Sulfur, 2 Rite, Gemstone, Pyretic, Faithless, Manamorphose = 14 Gob T2
7. Petal, Faithless, Pyretic, Geo, Sulfur, Preordain, Cabal = 20 ToA T3
8. 2 Rite, Sulfur, Faithless, Gemstone, Manamorphose, Petal = 22 Gob T2
9. Dark, Gemstone, ToA, Rite, Sulfur, Star, Pyretic = 20 damage ToA T2
10. Manamorphose, Preordain, Geo, Rite, Night, Petal, Sulfur = 24 Gob T2
11. Manamorphose, Night, 2 Probe, Sulfur, Pyretic, Dark = 34 Gob T2
12. Geo, Star, Faithless, ToA, Manamorphose, Night, Pyre = 16 Gob T2
13. Cabal, Probe, Dark, 2 Sulfur, 2 Manamorphose = Fizzle T2
14. Dark, Rite, 2 Faithless, Cabal, Probe, Petal = 22 ToA T2, on the draw
15. Cabal, Preordain, 2 Dark, Sulfur, Faithless, ToA = 22 ToA T2, combo made possible by the Manamorphose drawn on the second turn
16. Sulfur, 2 Petal, Preordain, Faithless, Star, Dark = 20 ToA T2
17. Manamorphose, Night, 2 Rite, Petal, Geo, Probe = 20 Gob T2
18. 2 Geo, ToA, Manamorphose, Pyretic, Faithless, Night = 22 ToA T2
19. Pyre, 2 Gemstone, Sulfur, Faithless, Cabal, Preordain = Fizzle T2. Reached 11 storm with BBBBBR remaining in mana pool, but found no EtW or ToA
20. 2 Manamorphose, Sign, Dark, Petal, Cabal, Gemstone = Fizzle T2. Ran out of mana.
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Why pyretic over desperate ritual? maybe you will almost never use it but having the option to splice could be nice.
And it doesn't matter, there are no arcane spells in the deck or used in legacy in general. They do the same thing.
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I just didn't have Desperate Rituals. Well, the Pyretics perform nicely enough. And my budget to order things online is limited, so instead of ordering Desperate Rituals, I chose to order the more needed playset of Night's Whisper and Dread of Night from SCG.
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1. Rite, Preordain, Petal, Sulfur, Pyre, Petal, Dark = Fizzle T2. Should have mulliganed a hand with only one draw spell.
2. Geo, Sulfur, Dark, Faithless, Petal , Manamorphose, Rite = 30 ToA T2
3. 2 Gemstone, EtW, Geo, Cabal, Manamorphose (mull to 6) = Fizzle T2.
4. Pyre, 2 Petal, Faithless, 2 Manamorphose, ToA = Fizzle T2. On the draw.
5. Pyre, Rite, Sulfur, EtW, Probe, Night, Petal = 20 gob T2
6. Cabal, Petal, 2 Preordain, Manamorphose, Sulfur, ToA = 14 Gob T2. This could have been a fizzle if preordain did not find another mana source.
7. Dark, 2 Star, 2 Pyre, ToA, Sulfur = 20 ToA T3
8. Cabal, Probe, Star, Preordain, 2 Gemstone, Geo = 22 ToA T3
9. 2 EtW, Preordain, 2 Sulfur, ToA, Dark = 16 Gob + 18 ToA T3
10. 2 Rite, Petal, Cabal, EtW, ToA, Geo = 14 Gob + 16 ToA T2
11. 2 Sulfur, Manamorphose, 2 Geo, Preordain, Petal = Fizzle T3
12. Probe, Sulfur, Rite, Night, Faithless, Petal, Manamorphose = 22 ToA T3
13. 2 Rite, Gemstone, EtW, ToA, Pyre, Manamorphose = 12 Gob T1. This is a lucky hand.
14. Cabal, 2 Pyre, 2 Sulfur, 2 Probe = 20 ToA T3
15. Pyre, Probe, 2 EtW, Rite, 2 Gemstone = 8 Gob T2
16. Sulfur, 2 Rite, Faithless, Pyre, 2 Manamorphose = 22 Gob T2
17. Probe, Faithless, 2 Gemstone, Sulfur, Manamorphose, Night = 20 ToA T2
18. EtW, Petal, 2 Cabal, Star, Dark, Probe = 16 Gob T1. Another lucky hand.
19. Petal, Sulfur, Cabal, Cabal, Dark, Probe, EtW (mull to 6) = 20 Gob T2
20. Faithless, Petal, Rite, Preordain, Probe, Night, Geo = 20 ToA T2
21. ToA, Sulfur, 2 Geo, Star, 2 EtW = Fizzle T3
22. Rite, Preordain, Manamorphose, ToA, 2 Cabal, Petal = 20 Gob + 22 ToA T1. On the draw.
23. Geo, Pyre, 2 Rite, Manamorphose, Gemstone, ToA = 12 ToA + 14 ToA T3
24. 2 Gemstone, Sign, Star, Dark, Cabal, Rite = 24 ToA T2
25. 2 Geo, Faithless, Preordain, Night, Dark (mull to 6) = Fizzle T3. Should have sacced only one geo and took R from the other one. Drawn red rituals from Night Whisper that I can't cast.
26. Probe, Preordain, Dark, Manamorphoise, Gemstone, Night, Petal = 22 ToA T2
27. Manamorphose, 2 Probe, Gemstone, Petal, Geo (mull to 6) = 20 ToA T3
28. Probe, Pyretic, Rite, Manamorphose, EtW, Petal, Star = 12 Gob T1. Almost fizzled, lucky that Probe found a Gemstone Mine.
29. EtW, Pyre, 2 Manamorphose, Geo, Faithless, Cabal = 22 Gob T2
30. Pyre, 3 Cabal, Dark, Night, Gemstone = Fizzle T2. Reached 11 storm and BBBBBRU in mana pool, but found no EtW or ToA.
31. Dark, Probe, EtW, Geo, Petal (mull to 5) = 8 Gob T2
32. Preordain, 2 Cabal, Night, EtW, Faithless, Geo = 20 Gob T3.
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Thanks. I'm working both goldfish test, and testing with real people when my friends come over. Unfortunately, I can't really think of a good way to lower the fizzle rate some more. One way is to wait until turn 4, but that isn't really an acceptable method against most decks in legacy. Have to be as fast as possible at least on game 1, if we want to be semi-competitive. A few of those whom I've playtested with thought this is an expensive storm combo deck, when they got hit by ToA on my second turn. I just tell them that the deck can't really do that all the time, can fizzle, and the more comfortable time to combo is turn 3.
Not really, sometimes I sac only one, and then take the single mana from the other.
What you said about saccing only one first is the right thing to do. I was already a bit fatigued from previous goldfishing, and didn't notice that I need the red from the other Geothermal. Mana can be expanded even by saccing only one geo, because that hand also has a Dark Ritual.
Hand that fizzled:
Perhaps you can post your latest Sac Land Tendrils list?
Smiter seems hard for a Pox deck. Well, 2-2 isn't bad in my opinion.
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In an attempt to find another one mana library manipulation card for this deck. I tried using Index as a one of. It's not really a bad card in testing. However, this deck wants something that also draws a card like Preordain, Ponder, and Faithless Looting. Index rearranging the top 5 cards of the library simply isn't good enough.
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Generally with a combo deck, card disadvantage is not in our favor. Nor is having to always wait a turn to draw something, as it then opens you up to Surgical Extraction and other such annoying cards. Otherwise if you need to dig for an answer, cards like spoils of the vault and/or Plunge into darkness will serve you far better.
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Yeah, the reason that Index wasn't good enough is because it didn't put a card into my hand.
Was actually testing what could be a possible replacement for the one-of Sign In Blood in my current list.
The card draw spells that I currently use are 4 Night's Whisper, 3 Faithless, 3 Preordain, 4 Probe, and the 1 Sign in Blood. Guess I should just increase the Preordain or the Faithless by one more.
Spoils of the Vault is strong. Sadly unusable in my previous testings. The games lost from too much life paid already outnumbered the wins that the card was able to provide.
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Not sure why you'd do that instead of just putting Windfall in there instead. I've always been wary of it because if both you and your opponent are low on cards, it doesn't do much and kind of clogs up your hand. Also spending 3 mana on this and then having it FoW'd is pretty rough.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
A hand refiller that looks like it has potential.
Should be at least given a chance in testing.
Most likely we would be using our hand faster than the opponent, so Whispering Madness can discard at least 4 cards from the opponent's hand (they get to refill their hand though) and we draw 4 = that's the same as getting the draw power of Infernal Contract, but we didn't pay any life. The problem I'm seeing is that U in the casting cost should make it a little difficult to cast, and being four mana will make it vulnerable to Spell Pierce and even Daze.
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