I'll give the little guy a shot as a 1 of. At least he lowers the curve a little, and at a mana cost that can squeeze him in post-Ringleader often enough.
I don't mean to be harsh. I just think Punishing Fire will end up being a bigger deal in my deck.
But I have to agree, what other creature in our deck might be good with Royal Loyalist?
Maybe adding few lords would do the trick?
That's the point. With our current "default" build, he will only be REALLY relevant when pairing with a piledriver. Sure, there are some other little bonuses with the first strike and token evasion, but seems a bit over situacional.
Lords would surely make him way more interesting, but where is the space for them?
IMO goblins don't profit much from first strike or trample, unless they're piledrivers. I'm not saying it would be bad to have those abilities avaible, it's just that a goyf will react the same way against a 2/2, with or without those abilities.
It seems very situacional. Then again, that's exactly what I thought about Krenko back when he came out, and he still has a slot in my deck (and I've won games matroning for him).
Triggering Battalion in a meta as removal-heavy as this one will not be easy, not even with 4 War Marshal backing him.
Speaking of removal, my understanding of Battalion is that once you've attacked with Loyalist (+2 others) Battalion triggers and goes on the stack. Any removal cast in response to declaring attackers will not prevent Battalion from resolving, since Battalion doesn't "check" to see how many attackers there are when it resolves, (unlike Piledriver's attack trigger). Battalion only cares how many creatures are declared attackers.
So, if you attack into your Miracle opponent's 5 Angel tokens with a Loyalist and enough goblins to kill him, he can't block even if he Swords the Loyalist in response to the Battalion trigger. Or if you're attacking with Loyalist +2 dudes and 1, 2, or all 3 get burned out in response to the Battalion trigger, Battalion still resolves successfully.
Speaking of removal, my understanding of Battalion is that once you've attacked with Loyalist (+2 others) Battalion triggers and goes on the stack. Any removal cast in response to declaring attackers will not prevent Battalion from resolving, since Battalion doesn't "check" to see how many attackers there are when it resolves, (unlike Piledriver's attack trigger). Battalion only cares how many creatures are declared attackers.
So, if you attack into your Miracle opponent's 5 Angel tokens with a Loyalist and enough goblins to kill him, he can't block even if he Swords the Loyalist in response to the Battalion trigger. Or if you're attacking with Loyalist +2 dudes and 1, 2, or all 3 get burned out in response to the Battalion trigger, Battalion still resolves successfully.
I am interpretting this correctly, yes?
Once the trigger goes on the stack nothing should be able to stop it from resolving, yes. (Aside from Stifle-esque effects obviously)
But if your opponent's not an idiot, he does have a couple opportunities to get rid of the Loyalist before it's effect can go off. At the end of Main Phase 1 both players get priority, so they could Swords the Loyalist then, before combat even starts, and when you enter combat, before attackers are even declared (to trigger things like Battalion) he could get rid of the Loyalist too and it's effect would never happen.
Now sure, if he waits until you've already swung in with the Loaylist and at least 2 other dudes, then yeah, that ****'s happening regardless. But you have to really bank on your opponent not knowing a lot.
Army Loyalist for our deck, I think he'll be 1 of at most, but still be very effective. The power of our deck to simply be able to tutor him up seems good effort to at least try out and see.
1 CMC, compared to the last good goblin we got, Krenko, Mob Boss; 4 CMC. Now we can tutor for a swing card, and play it, use it, and ask our opponent; Do you have the answer for this right now, or are we going to the next game?
Maybe I'm hoping for too much, but I want to teach my old dog new tricks.
I think I'll go with 2 loyalist in my flex spots, just because I see him doing the best either next to a piledriver (as stated) or when I flip him off a ringleader, unless I'm just landing the ringleader first chance I get (and often times I land him turn 4 after a warchief with a mana to spare) I'll drop hit right after. that will trigger battalion and with all the x/1 or x/2's I see (lots of Bobs and delver decks this way) first strike and trample both will be relevant ven on a 2/2 since it will let me keep my army and even push through a few points. I agree I don't see him being a new build around card for us, but I think he'll have a slot or two.
Hi everyone, I'm just getting back into Legacy after a 5 year hiatus, and I've decided to start with Goblins, since I have most of the cards for it, and the AggroLoam deck I used to play seems less good these days.
Obviously, this is basically just Goblins circa 2008 + Caverns and Thalia, but I feel it's a good starting point for me to wet my feet back into Legacy. I definitely feel like this is a very weak list to BUG. My thoughts on progressing:
1) The Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows plan seems to be the most promising to me, because I'm not a big fan of Tarfire.
2) Perhaps Goblin Sharpshooter needs to find his way back into the main with Elves on the rise?
3) I really dislike Tuktuk Scrapper, but I'm not sure Tin Street Hooligan would be any more reliable.
4) I see a lot of people here and on the Source have advocated for a more explosive list, and that's what I'm feeling too from goldfishing this list. Perhaps I move Thalia (and Karakas?) to the board for some Chieftains?
Goblins already dominates fair creature based matchups outside of Zoo, and coming in at two damage Punishing Fire doesn't really touch Zoo.
It forces anti-synergy by loading up your deck with more non-goblins, and you are forced to play a bad land ala Grove of the Burnwillows that makes you even more open to random Wasteland losses, and gains your opponent life which will cost a non-zero amount of losses if things come down to a race and you are forced to use Grove for colored mana.
When you are adding cards to a deck you should be asking yourself, "What bad matchups does adding these cards improve, and is it at the sacrifice of making other matchups weaker?" Punishing Fire is just going to make already positive matchups even more lopsided, and it does literally nothing to help the bad matchups. Zoo and Combo laugh at Punishing Fire. On top of that, do you really want to make your best card vs Control weaker by reducing the Goblin count for Ringleader?
No, yeah, you're definitely right. I did a few quick goldfishes and was pretty disgusted by the lackluster hands. I'm going to go back and tinker with a Rw list.
I like Rest In Peace over Relic of Progenitus, that's just personal preference. I like this Boartusk for Plague tech, and Thalia remains in board because I think the ability to steal random G1 isn't worth the dilution.
No, yeah, you're definitely right. I did a few quick goldfishes and was pretty disgusted by the lackluster hands. I'm going to go back and tinker with a Rw list.
I like Rest In Peace over Relic of Progenitus, that's just personal preference. I like this Boartusk for Plague tech, and Thalia remains in board because I think the ability to steal random G1 isn't worth the dilution.
id like to personally thank you for being the first person ive seen who sideboarded the thalia where they are supposed to be rather than disrupting the deck against everyone besides combo
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"Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
1. if your running agaisnt multiple zoo decks in a smaller tourny then yah pfire is gonna be great and it will probably be good vs bug...not sure yet if we need the extra edge as i havent played the matchup all that much ......but we really dont need the rug match up to be any better as its pretty good as is. vs rug we probably have the best match up of any fair deck.
2. i can assure you 3x fire 3x thalia is terrible together never ever ever do that. the reason maverick stopped using pfire wasnt because it stopped beign great it was because thalia was better and she ruined the usage of pfire.
3. dont ever....EVER consider cutting ringleader....i could understand a person cutting down down to 3 in pfire or thalia main build but that is the bare minimum. If your build is causing ringleader to not be great then your build is causing your deck to be a very bad goblins deck and you should stop doing what your doing or try doing that thing in a different deck shell.
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"Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
dont get me wrong kid im actually all for the punishing fire plan at least from a theory and play testing standpoint and if it seems to work well for you in your meta then by all means run it. I was just saying that RUG isnt necessarily where we need the help so its a plus that its good agaisnt RUG but not necessarily a reason to play fire ... now if yoru meta has stuff like zoo or deathrite decks or death and taxes or elves i can definately see pfire being a help and those decks are very good reasons to play it but if the only deck in your meta that pfire would help agaisnt is RUG then id prolly just hold off.
Also to be noted pfire also kills stoneforge in esperblade after they have fetched batterskull.
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"Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
BUG is becoming an increasingly big part of Legacy, and everyone says Punishing Fire is great against it, but how much so? Is it really all it's cracked up to be in that match up?
BUG is becoming an increasingly big part of Legacy, and everyone says Punishing Fire is great against it, but how much so? Is it really all it's cracked up to be in that match up?
im not yet convinced it is but theoretically it could be...it kills deathrite snappy shardless and planeswalkers...so is it good vs goyf + stalker builds prolly not too much but vs the controlly builds its seems pretty good theoretically
until i hear someone has done some hard testing i wont be convinced either way though for the same reason im keeping an open mind about it
the problem i see is that with the exception of pernicious deed the control variants dont really scare me much so unless pfire turns out to be good vs the midrange and tempo builds i wont be switching to it
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"Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
so this is what i have been testing with and i kinda like it, i feel like the mana base could be better. hesitation, standstill, and thalia work to stifle the opponent for turns 2-5 pretty well, and between aether vial, lackey, and instigator i can put **** into play without casting, gempalm helps to refill my hand a bit but usually doesnt have a target, am thinking of upping gempalm to 4 and bringing ringleader down to 3...any suggestions would be great.
so this is what i have been testing with and i kinda like it, i feel like the mana base could be better. hesitation, standstill, and thalia work to stifle the opponent for turns 2-5 pretty well, and between aether vial, lackey, and instigator i can put **** into play without casting, gempalm helps to refill my hand a bit but usually doesnt have a target, am thinking of upping gempalm to 4 and bringing ringleader down to 3...any suggestions would be great.
while i can understand your devotion to playing some goblins i cant help but feel like the deck your trying to make is better off heading in a different direction. I cant help but feel like your deck should be in a gw shell or a zoo shell rather than goblins which really wants a critical mass of goblins to work. For goblins its ok to dilute it with 4 extra non goblins but you have a list with 12 extra non goblins. I jsut feel like if you went in the direction of loam lion + steppe lynx + goyf +kotr + geist youd actually have a better aggressive creature base than this diluted goblin shell or even trying standstill hesitation in a blouses shell.
just my 2 cents.
But if you really want to stick with this shell id add a goblin king and 4 mutavault
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"Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
im not yet convinced it is but theoretically it could be...it kills deathrite snappy shardless and planeswalkers...so is it good vs goyf + stalker builds prolly not too much but vs the controlly builds its seems pretty good theoretically
until i hear someone has done some hard testing i wont be convinced either way though for the same reason im keeping an open mind about it
the problem i see is that with the exception of pernicious deed the control variants dont really scare me much so unless pfire turns out to be good vs the midrange and tempo builds i wont be switching to it
This is exactly what I've been thinking - it seems nice in theory, and many people talk about testing it, but I haven't actually seen anyone's reports on its success/failures. I definitely like the idea of it, as I'm not in love with the white splash or Thalia.
I don't mean to be harsh. I just think Punishing Fire will end up being a bigger deal in my deck.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
That's the point. With our current "default" build, he will only be REALLY relevant when pairing with a piledriver. Sure, there are some other little bonuses with the first strike and token evasion, but seems a bit over situacional.
Lords would surely make him way more interesting, but where is the space for them?
IMO goblins don't profit much from first strike or trample, unless they're piledrivers. I'm not saying it would be bad to have those abilities avaible, it's just that a goyf will react the same way against a 2/2, with or without those abilities.
It seems very situacional. Then again, that's exactly what I thought about Krenko back when he came out, and he still has a slot in my deck (and I've won games matroning for him).
::MODERN:: BG BGx midrange
::COMMANDER:: WBG Karador Witness
Speaking of removal, my understanding of Battalion is that once you've attacked with Loyalist (+2 others) Battalion triggers and goes on the stack. Any removal cast in response to declaring attackers will not prevent Battalion from resolving, since Battalion doesn't "check" to see how many attackers there are when it resolves, (unlike Piledriver's attack trigger). Battalion only cares how many creatures are declared attackers.
So, if you attack into your Miracle opponent's 5 Angel tokens with a Loyalist and enough goblins to kill him, he can't block even if he Swords the Loyalist in response to the Battalion trigger. Or if you're attacking with Loyalist +2 dudes and 1, 2, or all 3 get burned out in response to the Battalion trigger, Battalion still resolves successfully.
I am interpretting this correctly, yes?
Once the trigger goes on the stack nothing should be able to stop it from resolving, yes. (Aside from Stifle-esque effects obviously)
But if your opponent's not an idiot, he does have a couple opportunities to get rid of the Loyalist before it's effect can go off. At the end of Main Phase 1 both players get priority, so they could Swords the Loyalist then, before combat even starts, and when you enter combat, before attackers are even declared (to trigger things like Battalion) he could get rid of the Loyalist too and it's effect would never happen.
Now sure, if he waits until you've already swung in with the Loaylist and at least 2 other dudes, then yeah, that ****'s happening regardless. But you have to really bank on your opponent not knowing a lot.
Ephara
Dralnu
Rakdos
Angry Bobby
[card=Selvala, Explorer Returned]Selvala[card]
Karlov
Mazirek
Meren
Ezuri
Kaseto Snakes
Jhoira Eldrazi
Anya
Depala Vehicles
Rubinia Enchantments
Sek' Kuar Wurm Tribal
card=Xira Arien]Xira Mass Discard[/card]
Gahiji Beasts
Hazezon Tokens
Karador Spirits
Sidisi Zombies
Yasova
Ruhan Voltron
Shu Yun P/T Switching
Zurgo
K & T
Yore-Tiller Sphinx Tribal
1 CMC, compared to the last good goblin we got, Krenko, Mob Boss; 4 CMC. Now we can tutor for a swing card, and play it, use it, and ask our opponent; Do you have the answer for this right now, or are we going to the next game?
Maybe I'm hoping for too much, but I want to teach my old dog new tricks.
Legacy - RG Goblins, BWG Stoneblade, BUWRG Dredge
EDH - WUG Phelddagrif, W Radiant, Archangel, WUG Jenara, Asura of War
Legacy:
RGWBUDredgeUBWGR
:symrg:Belcher:symrg:
WD&TW
Affinity
WGriffinsW (pauper)
U/thopter comboU/ (peasant)
:symbg:Moosebite:symbg: (peasant)
RGobo tokensR (peasant)
R slide R (peasant)
:symur:pingers:symur:
So, this is the initial build I've put together:
5 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
1 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Creatures
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Stingscourger
2 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial
4 Earwig Squad
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
Obviously, this is basically just Goblins circa 2008 + Caverns and Thalia, but I feel it's a good starting point for me to wet my feet back into Legacy. I definitely feel like this is a very weak list to BUG. My thoughts on progressing:
1) The Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows plan seems to be the most promising to me, because I'm not a big fan of Tarfire.
2) Perhaps Goblin Sharpshooter needs to find his way back into the main with Elves on the rise?
3) I really dislike Tuktuk Scrapper, but I'm not sure Tin Street Hooligan would be any more reliable.
4) I see a lot of people here and on the Source have advocated for a more explosive list, and that's what I'm feeling too from goldfishing this list. Perhaps I move Thalia (and Karakas?) to the board for some Chieftains?
Potential new list:
4 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Stingscourger
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Punishing Fire
Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Karakas
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Relic of Progenitus
Worth testing, or already too out of left field?
Modern: URStormUR|BRGW Jund BRGW|GWUB Gifts GWUB
Commander:XKarnX
Cubes: Level 1: Pauper
It forces anti-synergy by loading up your deck with more non-goblins, and you are forced to play a bad land ala Grove of the Burnwillows that makes you even more open to random Wasteland losses, and gains your opponent life which will cost a non-zero amount of losses if things come down to a race and you are forced to use Grove for colored mana.
When you are adding cards to a deck you should be asking yourself, "What bad matchups does adding these cards improve, and is it at the sacrifice of making other matchups weaker?" Punishing Fire is just going to make already positive matchups even more lopsided, and it does literally nothing to help the bad matchups. Zoo and Combo laugh at Punishing Fire. On top of that, do you really want to make your best card vs Control weaker by reducing the Goblin count for Ringleader?
5 Mountain
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
1 Plateau
1 Karakas
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
2 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Tarfire
Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Boartusk Liege
4 Rest In Peace
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Pyrokinesis
I like Rest In Peace over Relic of Progenitus, that's just personal preference. I like this Boartusk for Plague tech, and Thalia remains in board because I think the ability to steal random G1 isn't worth the dilution.
Modern: URStormUR|BRGW Jund BRGW|GWUB Gifts GWUB
Commander:XKarnX
Cubes: Level 1: Pauper
id like to personally thank you for being the first person ive seen who sideboarded the thalia where they are supposed to be rather than disrupting the deck against everyone besides combo
"Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
Legacy:
Goblins (21-8-4)
Death&Taxes
--refusing to casting Force of Will since 2010--
2. i can assure you 3x fire 3x thalia is terrible together never ever ever do that. the reason maverick stopped using pfire wasnt because it stopped beign great it was because thalia was better and she ruined the usage of pfire.
3. dont ever....EVER consider cutting ringleader....i could understand a person cutting down down to 3 in pfire or thalia main build but that is the bare minimum. If your build is causing ringleader to not be great then your build is causing your deck to be a very bad goblins deck and you should stop doing what your doing or try doing that thing in a different deck shell.
"Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
Legacy:
Goblins (21-8-4)
Death&Taxes
--refusing to casting Force of Will since 2010--
Death and Taxes
Elves
BUG, BW Blade, Junk, Jund (DRS decks with Dark Confidant)
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Also to be noted pfire also kills stoneforge in esperblade after they have fetched batterskull.
"Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
Legacy:
Goblins (21-8-4)
Death&Taxes
--refusing to casting Force of Will since 2010--
Modern: URStormUR|BRGW Jund BRGW|GWUB Gifts GWUB
Commander:XKarnX
Cubes: Level 1: Pauper
im not yet convinced it is but theoretically it could be...it kills deathrite snappy shardless and planeswalkers...so is it good vs goyf + stalker builds prolly not too much but vs the controlly builds its seems pretty good theoretically
until i hear someone has done some hard testing i wont be convinced either way though for the same reason im keeping an open mind about it
the problem i see is that with the exception of pernicious deed the control variants dont really scare me much so unless pfire turns out to be good vs the midrange and tempo builds i wont be switching to it
"Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
Legacy:
Goblins (21-8-4)
Death&Taxes
--refusing to casting Force of Will since 2010--
4 Arid Mesa
4 Plateau
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Steam Vents
4 Volcanic Island
4 Hesitation
4 Standstill
Artifact:
4 Aether Vial
Creatures:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Warren Instigator
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander
so this is what i have been testing with and i kinda like it, i feel like the mana base could be better. hesitation, standstill, and thalia work to stifle the opponent for turns 2-5 pretty well, and between aether vial, lackey, and instigator i can put **** into play without casting, gempalm helps to refill my hand a bit but usually doesnt have a target, am thinking of upping gempalm to 4 and bringing ringleader down to 3...any suggestions would be great.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/PlaneswalkerPoints/5102379133
while i can understand your devotion to playing some goblins i cant help but feel like the deck your trying to make is better off heading in a different direction. I cant help but feel like your deck should be in a gw shell or a zoo shell rather than goblins which really wants a critical mass of goblins to work. For goblins its ok to dilute it with 4 extra non goblins but you have a list with 12 extra non goblins. I jsut feel like if you went in the direction of loam lion + steppe lynx + goyf +kotr + geist youd actually have a better aggressive creature base than this diluted goblin shell or even trying standstill hesitation in a blouses shell.
just my 2 cents.
But if you really want to stick with this shell id add a goblin king and 4 mutavault
"Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
Legacy:
Goblins (21-8-4)
Death&Taxes
--refusing to casting Force of Will since 2010--
This is exactly what I've been thinking - it seems nice in theory, and many people talk about testing it, but I haven't actually seen anyone's reports on its success/failures. I definitely like the idea of it, as I'm not in love with the white splash or Thalia.
Modern: URStormUR|BRGW Jund BRGW|GWUB Gifts GWUB
Commander:XKarnX
Cubes: Level 1: Pauper
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730