I believe that if Tassadar was familiar with Japanese pros' opinion he would'nt have made such arbitrary statements.
Etienne, when the hell have you placed in the Top 32 at the pro tour? what? Never? wow, what a shocker there. If you think hiearch is bad you need to play a little thing we call standard and you will see it is one of the best creatures around. Only relying on kokusho and yoseii (which if you didn't know cost 6) totally hoses you versus zoo (which by the way is one of the best decks in the format) Since I doubt you play little type 2 (due to dumb comments about loxodon) you wouldnt know loxodon is one of the best things to combat aggro there is. I also repeat myself about favoring pro tour player's opinions over you.
Well, Shu's opinion is fine and dandy, but just because he is a japanese "pro" I really don't see why his opinion is automatically better than the rest of ours. In fact, when I started playing magic, my 2 best friends were the states and regional champions of Florida during the mirroden/Onslaught t2 age. They were both exelent magic players who truely new the game and had been plying for 5 years, and I learned everything I know now from them. Just because one japanese pro thinks heirarch is an autoinclude, don't back him up BECAUSE he is a japanese pro. Play test the crap out of heirarch in gifts, and then, maybe then you can say something. But judging by your above posts, you never have playtested with and without him.
I am familiar with the opinions of pros, and do not value them less than my own or less than others. This is because EVERYONE makes mistakes, everyone has a different opinion on what is optimal, and everyone plays their decks with a certain sense of personality. Everyone who plays magic plays the game differently.
I've t8ed a few major events, and beat the regionals champ and states champ in just about every FNM I went to with them. Does this mean my opinion is more valid than theirs? No, and it doesn't mean my opinion is better than yours, but it still means you shouldnt belittle other people's opinions, and that our opinions deserve your respect as a fellow MTG PLAYER.
I disagree kashmyr, this is the thread for the Greater Good Combo deck that sacrifices Yosei to GG to draw into reanimation and repeat the process for the win. That deck is a beatdown deck that uses GG as a draw engine with guys that are gonna die, or if they're out of gas.
On to the discussion!
There are two distinct builds of this deck: One is more controlling with white, and one goes for the fast kill with the lock for control.
P.S. For reference, I play the deck on the top (slightly different build) with some really sweet tech in the board, but the walls have ears (or eyes as it may be)
Heirarch is pretty nice, I only run 2 (as opposed to none) and I am finding it ok. Nothing great, nothing bad. Doesn't do anything in either direction. I went 3-0 in the last little local tourney I went to. the deck ran smoothly and I encountered no real issues (at this time I was running a japanese pro's list) and found the deck to be really solid. I have nothing against the card, or particularly for the card.
It's slow as hell! A lot of you guys are running the lists with white for the hierarchs and wraths, but they are so slowwwwwwwwww.
"but AJ, the pros do it!" that's really wonderful, good for them, but in this format you have to combo out before
A. Gruul kills you/puts you within 4 with burn open
B. Heartbeat Combo goes off
C. Orzhov destroys your hand
The fastest version of the deck is the one that uses Kagemaro. I know a lot of people don't like him, but he's an instant speed wrath effect that can explode just as quickly as you can cast wrath and isn't as mana intensive.
Yosei is also basically a wrath effect, because by the time he hits with a GG in play, they're not taking another turn. The truly best version of the deck is the least mana intensive: The one without the white.
you want yoseis in mass numbers. You can just win the game with yosei sometimes. Wrath is always key on the third turn against aggro. You cannot say you win faster and more consistantly when you only have 1 yosei. Its like you either get yosei to keep on recurring him, or you randomly get kuro pitlord or angel of dispair for no reason.
Hey guys, just wondering....why dont the pros run house guards in their builds...In theory he should be really good because
1. Tranmutes for GG
2. Transmutes for Wrath
3. transumutes for gifts (or nightmare void or other random goodies)
4. Additional sac engine for the dragons.
Im unsure why such a versatile critter is being overlooked...Can some one just give me the obvious explanation that i'm lacking...
you want yoseis in mass numbers. You can just win the game with yosei sometimes. Wrath is always key on the third turn against aggro. You cannot say you win faster and more consistantly when you only have 1 yosei. Its like you either get yosei to keep on recurring him, or you randomly get kuro pitlord or angel of dispair for no reason.
I'm aware that yosei runs away with the games, but I just Gifts Ungiven into him. My usual Gifts package for this deck is
GG
Recollect
Reclaim
Yosei
Then if I already have a GG I get
Compulsive Research
Goryo's Vengance
Yosei
Reclaim
and if I have Yosei but no GG I get the first package with Compulsive Research instead of Yosei. And yes, I can say I win faster and more consistantly, because I have the faster deck with BoP and the full playset of Gifts Ungiven as oposed to the three I've seen some people running.
Wrath is nice and all, but how often do you really hit it on turn three? And when you do, how stretched is your mana beyond the point of rounding it off to combo out?
Yosei lock is JUST as devestating to agro as it is to control or combo, and Kagemaro is still a Wrath effect for 4BB, or 2BB with Footsteps of the Goryo, and him in the yard, usually a result of Compulsive Research and Gifts Ungiven.
I've actually dropped the Angel for a second Yosei, but I'm finding that I might want the Kokusho instead, because Kokusho is a Time Walk against agro, and can really push through the rest of the damage without the lock, which is key. He speeds up the deck so it can win without the lock, and gain a bunch of life while doing it.
Trust me, you may not like this strategy because it's not what the pros did, but this build crushes aggro. Playtest it for yourself, then come post your results and you'll see what I mean.
Quote from DvK »
How fast do you actually go off with only 1 yosei? When goldfishing, I find myself quite consistently going off turns 6-7.
I usually go off turn 5 with two Yosei (one in the slot of Angel of Despair), but turn 5-6 with only one. Here's the key:
1. BoP
2. Reach
3. Gifts
4. Recollect GG, Compulsive Research pitching yosei that they gave you with Gifts
5. Vengance, GG, LOCK
Another play that I'm a big fan of is in the last example of a game playing out is on turn 5 with I Compulsive Research pitching Yosei, to also Footsteps Yosei, then lock next turn when they're tapped out from the first one.
Hope this helped you guys see how my deck ticks. To be honest, Wrath is dead tech. The way to beat agro is to Kagemaro (if you have to), or just Yosei lock before they burn you out. Kokusho life gain also helps.
-AJ
Man do you own ***S? If you dont own them running Kagemaro over them is fine. But Any body who has playtested wrath against agro will never speak ill of it....Im quite certain of that...
Man do you own ***S? If you dont own them running Kagemaro over them is fine. But Any body who has playtested wrath against agro will never speak ill of it....Im quite certain of that...
Probably does. He is a ripper(I didn't trade with him on here, but I did on MTGNews.), so it shouldn't be to hard for him to get. Suprisingly though, hes traded succesfully 3 times on here.
I think you need to run Yoseis in mass numbers. Its just more reliable.
This is deck is doing pretty good at French Regionals, but a lot of them aren't play Gifts. What do you guys think about not running Gifts?
I like the inclusion of Congregation of Dawn in the 2nd GG list, the first list is a more beatdown combatant list, but it was the higher ranking of the two. I can see why some went without Gifts, it drastically improves the manabase allowing Kodama to be more useful, and taking less pain from your lands.
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Man do you own ***S? If you dont own them running Kagemaro over them is fine. But Any body who has playtested wrath against agro will never speak ill of it....Im quite certain of that...
Yes, of course I have my playset, but they're just slow and unecesary. 1 Kagemaro is easy to gifts up and cast/reanimate while wrath forces you to overextend your mana base to accomadate (sp) it. Yosei locking quickly is better than stalling out and wrathing and stalling some more, then finally hardcasting that damn thing to get into the lock, which is what most of those decks are doing. I was actually thinking of cutting Kagemaro for another Compulsive Research, cause that card is nuts.
Wrath of God also takes up 4 slots that can be used on better things, like more reanimation, since most of you aren't running a whole lot. It also makes Birds of Paradise bad, which is reasonable because you don't want to wrath away all your mana sources, but BoP maximizes goldfishing the lock soo much more than playing defense against agro.
Proxy the deck. Just grab a pile of jank commons and a sharpie, and jot the deck down. Just card names, it's not going to be used for anything but for you to goldfish it.
Shuffle up really well, and draw seven. THEN tell me that it's not better then the *** versions.
-AJ
@ Evan - I thought I finished all my deals on MtGNews. What trade did we do, and what did I owe you? PM me the details, I'm more than willing to work it out. I did with everyone else who didn't get the cards I sent at the same time I sent yours.
@ DvK - While I am reliant on Gifts a lot more than other builds, it's not necesary to locking turn 6, just helpful to lock turn 4-5 and more consistantly on turn 6. I just Compulsive Research and reanimate Kokusho and sac to Greater Good and draw into the peices. Usually after one Koke-GG sac I either have the lock, or lethal damage, and the Compulsive Researches make it easier to get into a position to win.
Well, I've been running a list similar to shu's list, and I like it more with the gifts ungiven. Those Frenchmen seem to have done ok without it though. I like the build with gifts because It gives you possibilities that you can get on a more consistent basis. Running no gifts and no draw (because you then stop running blue) seems suicidal.
Well, I've been running a list similar to shu's list, and I like it more with the gifts ungiven. Those Frenchmen seem to have done ok without it though. I like the build with gifts because It gives you possibilities that you can get on a more consistent basis. Running no gifts and no draw (because you then stop running blue) seems suicidal.
Well, the thing about no Gifts and no draw is that they all run 4 copies of Top. They have basically accomidated ridiculous ammounts of shuffling into the deck which causes Top to practically be an Ancestral Recall every time you shuffle up (except less with the card advantage and more with the card selection). You don't get all the cards but in my experience with the deck you get the cards that you need. When you don't get Top, however, the game gets A LOT harder. One of the decks ran 3 tops but made up for it with Congregation, setting up an absolute lock with GG in play.
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I posted this on 1/9/06, but it received little attention, mainly because the Gifts version was simply better for the previous meta, but I think that now is the time to switch it up a little bit, as the French decks seem to be headed in a similar direction.
I have been running a successful Yosei/Gleancrawler/sac outlet lock now for the past couple of months, mainly because I don't see a tremendous amount of MUC in my area, but also because a lock that refuses to allow your opponent to win is, of course, good.
This deck can be aggro, accel into dragons and win.
This deck can be control, Wrath, D-Light, and Fetters the board until you drop dragons and win.
This deck can be combo, and establish an unbeatable lock. That's my definition of a fun deck, and I have worked to try to make the deck more consistent. I have also attempted to run more sideboard vs. matchup problems, and tried to speed the deck up more.
It's basically a remake of the South Carolina States winning deck, but more added black for Goryo's Vengeance in the main.
I have decided not to run Gifts in the md or a Gifts sideboard since I never played Gifts in block, and I realize it is probably more skill intensive than I want to play with. Gifts Ungiven does not fit my playstyle, so I avoid it.
I have thought about a transformational sideboard, and I am interested to hear your perspective on the deck as a whole.
Thank you for your input. I think the deck speaks for itself.
Enchantment Hate in the board for GhaziGlare
Fetters for Aggro
Disruption vs. Control
This deck struggles with mid-range aggro decks that also sport enchantment hate and counters (think Critical Mass and B/G Aggro with Hyppie). The deck thrives against combo, aggro, and most long-range control decks aside from ED.
I think that the GWb builds that were more prominent around States should come back into focus a little bit more, since this deck was designed to wreck aggro. Castigate would probably be the largest addition to the sideboard, in place of Nightmare Void; Putrefy/Mortify should replace Devouring Light to combat Owl/Phyrexian Arena. The shuffle effects make Top a better choice than Arena, and the possible inclusion of Congregation at Dawn fits better here than any other deck.
If your meta is mainly aggro or combo, rather than control, wouldn't dropping Gifts Ungiven become a more viable option?
He's my best friend and ride to the cardshop, so it was pretty bad when we had to play in the first round. Game one I'm about to go off turn 6 when he remands my GG, but he just transmutes for Weird Harvest and Kodama's Reaches and passes turn. I play GG, Sac BoP discarding 2 Yosei and a Kokusho and show him my hand of Footsteps, Reach, and 2 Vengeance. We go to game two.
Once again I go off the turn before he does. Needless to say, he wasn't happy showing me a hand of Heartbeat, Heartbeat, Weird Harvest, Early Harvest with 7 or 8 lands on the table.
Round Two - 1-0 - No Glare variant
Game one is a long, drawn out game. I'm going to lock turn 6 when he plays a Yosei. This slows me down for a turn as my Footsteps of the Goryo becomes spot removal. We trade, draw go, draw land go. He untaps and plays another Yosei. Great. After some fancy top spinning and reanimation, I finally lock. It takes me an extra turn because of Loxodon Hierarch, but finding and discarding my second Kokusho took care of that.
Game two we go to time. He extracts Gifts Ungiven on turn 4, and I hard cast Kokusho. He Mortifies it and I drain, then I Vengeance him and play Greater Good. He complains that I lucked out by playing the Vengeance first, but I inform him there was zero luck involved. Before damage he mortifies GG, and I sacrifice him. Draining for 5 more, finding another Kokusho (there were 3 in my deck after boarding another in) and a Vengeance, I vengeance and attack for 5, then Footsteps the other. He Mortifies (THIRD ONE!!) the one in play in response to Footsteps, but I have another Footsteps and just enough mana for it barely enough to kill him (somewhere in there a Greater Good got Fettared)
Round 3 - 2-0 - Zoo
Game one I keep a not-so-great hand where my first play is a Kodama's Reach. Then a Tribe Elder and another reach on the next turn, then a Gifts for Kagemaro and some Reanimation. I blow up the world while at 2 life, but he has Flames of Bloodhand.
Game two I have a slow hand, but learned from the first game and mulliganed it away drawing into a much better hand. Turn 3 Gifts, Turn 4 Greater Good, turn 5 Compulsive Research pitching Yosei, Vengeance him and LOCK.
Game three I made terrible playmistakes with a top, and don't find Gifts either, which definitly didn't help.
Round 3 - 2-1 - Oscar with Emminant Domain
My friend Jake, who also played a similar build to mine (except with Angel), had lost to him round 1, so hopes weren't up, but I developed my mana too far for him to steal enough lands to impact me locking on turn 6 thanks to a turn 4 Gifts, which I topped into. Things just went well for me, and he didn't disrupt me nearly fast enough.
Game two I board in 3 Naturalize and 1 Life from the Loam. I play turn one BoP. I then catch him miss a third land drop, so I Naturalize his Signet instead of K. Reaching. He clasms away my Birds, and I Reach the next turn. He plays a signet. I have a naturalize, but decide not to use it. He then chains mana into 2 more signets. I untap and have 6 mana. I ALMOST hardcasted a Kokusho, but I made the better play and Naturalized his signet to keep him off of six mana if he topdecks the land to prevent a Wildfire. He Dream Leashes a land and I Gifts at end of turn. Locking was a peice of cake soon after.
After the game, he complains about the luck of such a bad play of Naturalizing Signets instead of the land stealing enchantments, and I explained that I saw him miss his land drop so I tried to keep him from Annex mana and the sort, and the second time to keep him off of Wildfire mana. He then told me he did have Wildfire and said I still lucked out. Poor losers are so sad.
-AJ
P.S. Don't say I lost to Zoo because my lack of ***. The first game was a bad hand against him (although a good hand against a slow deck), and third game I lost due to some bad top spinning and lack of a Gifts Ungiven. The Zoo match-up is actually a good one for me as I can randomly wrath with no White sources, so they dont think to hold back, and even if they do, after I do it once, every reanimation spell and recursion spell in my deck becomes a Wrath.
Creatures (18)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Yosei the Morning Star
4 Kokusho the Evening Star
2 Nikko-Onna
Spells (17)
4 Kodama's Reach
4 Wrath of God
3 Mortify
3 Goryo's Vengeance
3 Footsteps of Goryo
Enchantements (3)
3 Greater Good
Land (22)
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Shizo, Deaths Storehouse
1 Okina, Temple of the Grandfathers
1 Svogthos, the Restless Tomb
2 Godless Shrine
3 Swamp
3 Plains
4 Forest
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Temple Garden
Sideboard (15)
4 Castigate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Putrefy
2 Debtors’ Knell
2 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
1 Mortify
Ive been testing variants of this deck for months now and this is the latest build ive come up with.
Nikko-Onna has some nice synergy in the deck with the other arcane spells and dragons letting me recur it. There are some pretty powerful enchantments out there right now (faiths fetters, phyrexian arena, moldervine cloak etc)
I really prefer castigate over cranial extraction right now because you can often knock BW's disruption out of its hand before its played on you. If you start vs control you can easily sneak castigate under their counterspells. castigate is also great mid-game for forcing though a spell on your turn by forcing them to counter it.
Debtor's Knell is quite underated right now and its a nice backup win condition games 2-3 if needed.
vs control decks i bring in 4x castigate + 2x Ink-Eyes.
Did you find Defense Grid was anti-synergenic with Gifts Ungiven? Or did it simply not come up? I'd expect that in the matches where you bring it in from the board you'd want it out asap...meaning before you gifts...meaning optimal gifting time is a 7 mana event (end of their turn). I'm not being critical just curious as to how it worked out for you.
It's true, but you are only running 3 Vengeance? I'd turn that Putrefy into a Vengeance and the Mortify into the Farseek. Vengeance is what makes the deck tick. If I had to Cranial Extract against this deck, that's what I'd name (or Greater Good).
-AJ
@AJ - only 5 Dragons means 4 Venegance is gonna leave me with a dead one most of the time. I Generally only need one to win, and with Top & Gifts i can easily find a second should i require it.
You would not believe how useful it is being able to Gifts for removal, and hence i will not cut the Putrefy or Mortify, gifts > ***, Reclaim, Recollect & Other just isnt enough sometimes.
I'd have to agree. I'm running 3 Vengence in my deck with 6 dragons and I've had no problems getting them when needed. You definately need at least 1 more removal than ***. I run 2 Mortify and 1 Putrify and never wish I didn't draw one.
The problem is that you guys are playing too much like a control deck. This is a combo deck, and should be comboing out turn 5-6, not *** turn 5, spot removal turn 7, hardcast an dragon turn 8, GG turn 9 then lock.
The extra reanimation helps lock faster, and if you want to play ***, then that's fine (even though I think it overextends the mana base), but *** on top of spot removal is just wishing that you play agro all day, and that your mana base follows the colors of your cards each game
-AJ
Creatures (17)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Yosei the Morning Star
4 Kokusho the Evening Star
1 Nikko-Onna
Spells (18)
4 Kodama's Reach
4 Wrath of God
3 Mortify
3 Goryo's Vengeance
3 Footsteps of Goryo
1 Diabolic Tutor
Enchantements (3)
3 Greater Good
Land (22)
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Shizo, Deaths Storehouse
1 Okina, Temple of the Grandfathers
1 Svogthos, the Restless Tomb
2 Godless Shrine
3 Swamp
3 Plains
4 Forest
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Temple Garden
Sideboard (15)
4 Castigate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Putrefy
2 Debtors’ Knell
2 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
1 Mortify
ive updated my sb, it now looks like this...
Sideboard (15)
4 Castigate
3 Cranial Extraction
3 Putrefy
3 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
im still not sure about the ink-eyes, they are great vs blue-based control decks but im just not seeing many of that style deck in my metagame right now... its mostly BW agro/ghostdad, zoo/gruul with a little RW/RWU Control.
the last top8 (64 players) in my area was)...
Heartbeat
BW Aggro
Gruul
Ghost Dad
BW Aggro
RWg Control (wierd combo deck with reverse the sands)
Zoo
Ghost Dad
I think the ink-eyes should be something else, possibly mindslicers, persecutes, pithing needles or 4th copies of cranial + mortify.
1. Please don't exaggerate - its perfectly easy to cast a turn 4 wrath - it only costs 4 mana after all :P.
WIth that overextended mana-base, you'd be lucky to cast it turn 4 consistantly, and even if you do, you're not going to be able to get your mana back up to the point where you can combo out.
2. If you don't play wrath, you LOSE to Gruul and Zoo, all the time. I've tested both and even with decent hands (some with double hierarch) i've been simply out guy'd by the aggro decks, Gruul can win on turn 4, and consistantly on turn 5. Tell me how you're supposed to combo out before then.
If Wrath is not an essential part of the deck, then why did EVERY DECK i've seen from Honolulu play it as a 3-4 of? Surely these pro's with years of experience know how to build a deck?
No, you don't. The first match is about 55/45 in their favor. What you do is Turn 3 Gifts for Kagemaro/Yosei and dump them in the yard, then turn 4 Vengeance Kagemaro and Sac'em. You'll usually be at around 8 after this on turn 4/5, and then you combo out before they can draw into enough burn to finish you off. Another good defense is to go off turn 4-5, but that obviously can't happen every time. If you have the mana to blow up Kagemaro after a hardcast on turn 4 (1:Bop, 2:Ste, 3:Gifts, 4: Hardcast and pop. Basically you need 2 Accelerants), then you can Gifts for Kagemaro, Footsteps, Vengeance, Compulsive Research. That way they give you a Combo piece and still enable a 'Wrath'.
Post board, you (I) bring in 4 Hierarchs and basically go along the same plan as pre-board, but with some help. This guy is like a Time Walk (Life total-wise) and usually bites some burn on his way down too. I didn't used to like the Hierarchs, but after Wrathing away a board of two BTS and an Ape, taking a shock to the head in the process, and being flashed 2 Flames of Blood hand and a Char, I decided I could probably make that match-up a little more favorable. Also, the one plains main makes Yosei hardcastable (needs BoP too) in a tight situation (Needle on GG game one I guess?)
3. Greater Good IS a control deck, with a comboesque win condition.
The idea is not to combo out as fast as possible, but to simply gifts into a win, where your opponent is helpless to do anything about it.
I guess this is where we differ. If you want to scoop to Izzetron, Wildfire variants with LD, Owl, and Heartbeat then I guess you're right, but MAN do you crush agro. Way to go. But if you want to be able to stand up the the gambit, you NEED to be able to tap them down turn 6, or you WILL lose to other combo decks, which is what the metagame is all about right now (Zoo and Gruul are only good because they hammer Heartbeat and other combo decks). So I guess we're just preparing for different metas and will have to agree to disagree.
-AJ
Really, I hope you're joking, or otherwise I'm having to conclude you have never played this deck, because it DOES play *** turn 4 consistantly. To be honest, it's even more common to play it on turn 3. (if you have it in your hand ofcourse, but that's what we're talking about) The mana base isn't that Weak, ok, it is if you play Magnivore, but I don't see either how you are going to beat that deck with your deck. If something is good about this deck, it's the fact that it is so consistant, and has a good matchup against agro. Maybe it looks bad on paper, but it is really ok. Btw, T2 isn't dominated by combo, if it is, could you give me some tournament results where combo dominated the tourney? And you haven't even stated the two other agro decks, Ghost Dad and WB Agro.
That first sentence definitly deserves a flame warning or something, because I obviously play this deck to be posting in this thread about the deck. And about Wrath, congrats, you play it on turn 3/4. Way to go, and now you have to sit there and rebuild your mana base and hand in order to combo out. Meanwhile, I wrath on turn 4/5 via Kagemaro, and go off turn 6/7 if I even bother at that point (I usually just go the Kokusho route and outrace them)
The mana base is weak, and even if they aren't terrible, they're still worse than my build. You say it's shaky against Vore? I roll Wildfire. I roll Izzetron. I roll Heartbeat. I roll BW Agro, and I roll Ghostdad. I also go coinflip against Gruul/Zoo, and then beat them both games post board. This happened yesterday at FNM twice.
And yes, Standard is dominated by combo. That's why Heartbeat is the deck to beat while Agro is just there to trash Izzetron and other slow control decks.
Also, I did mention BW agro, and Ghost Dad isn't an agro deck. A/C at best.
So in closing, you go 2-0 against Agro and scoop to Vore/Heartbeat/Izzetron and so on while I go 2-1 against Agro, and crush the rest of the decks. Right now BW Agro with heavy discard, and Knell Control are the only match-ups that I'm having a real problem with.
-AJ
Well, Shu's opinion is fine and dandy, but just because he is a japanese "pro" I really don't see why his opinion is automatically better than the rest of ours. In fact, when I started playing magic, my 2 best friends were the states and regional champions of Florida during the mirroden/Onslaught t2 age. They were both exelent magic players who truely new the game and had been plying for 5 years, and I learned everything I know now from them. Just because one japanese pro thinks heirarch is an autoinclude, don't back him up BECAUSE he is a japanese pro. Play test the crap out of heirarch in gifts, and then, maybe then you can say something. But judging by your above posts, you never have playtested with and without him.
I am familiar with the opinions of pros, and do not value them less than my own or less than others. This is because EVERYONE makes mistakes, everyone has a different opinion on what is optimal, and everyone plays their decks with a certain sense of personality. Everyone who plays magic plays the game differently.
I've t8ed a few major events, and beat the regionals champ and states champ in just about every FNM I went to with them. Does this mean my opinion is more valid than theirs? No, and it doesn't mean my opinion is better than yours, but it still means you shouldnt belittle other people's opinions, and that our opinions deserve your respect as a fellow MTG PLAYER.
RU Magnivore
RUG Sea Stompy
BWGUGreater Gifts
On to the discussion!
There are two distinct builds of this deck: One is more controlling with white, and one goes for the fast kill with the lock for control.
Greater Gifts Combo
4 Kokusho
1 Kuro
4 STE
1 Kagemaro
4 Gifts
4 Vengaence
1 Reclaim
3 GG
4 Reach
3 Compulsive Research
1 Recollect
2 Footsteps
1 Vigor Mortis
1 Zombify
1 Okina
1 Miren
4 Overgrown Tomb
8 Forest
4 Swamp
3 Island
Greater Gifts w\White
2 Kokusho
4 STE
3 Gifts
4 Vengence
1 Reclaim
3 Top
3 GG
2 Footsteps
1 Recollect
1 Vigor Mortis
2 Farseek
4 Reach
1 Shizo
1 Okina
1 Miren
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
2 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
7 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Island
2 Plains
What do you guys think?
-AJ
P.S. For reference, I play the deck on the top (slightly different build) with some really sweet tech in the board, but the walls have ears (or eyes as it may be)
RU Magnivore
RUG Sea Stompy
BWGUGreater Gifts
"but AJ, the pros do it!" that's really wonderful, good for them, but in this format you have to combo out before
A. Gruul kills you/puts you within 4 with burn open
B. Heartbeat Combo goes off
C. Orzhov destroys your hand
The fastest version of the deck is the one that uses Kagemaro. I know a lot of people don't like him, but he's an instant speed wrath effect that can explode just as quickly as you can cast wrath and isn't as mana intensive.
Yosei is also basically a wrath effect, because by the time he hits with a GG in play, they're not taking another turn. The truly best version of the deck is the least mana intensive: The one without the white.
4 STE
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Reach
4 Gifts
2 Footsteps
4 Vengaence
3 Top
3 Compulsive Research
1 Kagemaro
1 Kuro/Angel of Despair (my friend playtested this tech and likes it a lot, personally I'm not a fan)
3 GG
1 Reclaim
1 Recollect
1 Vigor Mortis
1 Okina
2 Miren
4 Overgrown Tomb
7 Forest
4 Swamp
3 Island
What do you guys think?
1. Tranmutes for GG
2. Transmutes for Wrath
3. transumutes for gifts (or nightmare void or other random goodies)
4. Additional sac engine for the dragons.
Im unsure why such a versatile critter is being overlooked...Can some one just give me the obvious explanation that i'm lacking...
RU Magnivore
RUG Sea Stompy
BWGUGreater Gifts
I'm aware that yosei runs away with the games, but I just Gifts Ungiven into him. My usual Gifts package for this deck is
GG
Recollect
Reclaim
Yosei
Then if I already have a GG I get
Compulsive Research
Goryo's Vengance
Yosei
Reclaim
and if I have Yosei but no GG I get the first package with Compulsive Research instead of Yosei. And yes, I can say I win faster and more consistantly, because I have the faster deck with BoP and the full playset of Gifts Ungiven as oposed to the three I've seen some people running.
Wrath is nice and all, but how often do you really hit it on turn three? And when you do, how stretched is your mana beyond the point of rounding it off to combo out?
Yosei lock is JUST as devestating to agro as it is to control or combo, and Kagemaro is still a Wrath effect for 4BB, or 2BB with Footsteps of the Goryo, and him in the yard, usually a result of Compulsive Research and Gifts Ungiven.
I've actually dropped the Angel for a second Yosei, but I'm finding that I might want the Kokusho instead, because Kokusho is a Time Walk against agro, and can really push through the rest of the damage without the lock, which is key. He speeds up the deck so it can win without the lock, and gain a bunch of life while doing it.
Trust me, you may not like this strategy because it's not what the pros did, but this build crushes aggro. Playtest it for yourself, then come post your results and you'll see what I mean.
I usually go off turn 5 with two Yosei (one in the slot of Angel of Despair), but turn 5-6 with only one. Here's the key:
1. BoP
2. Reach
3. Gifts
4. Recollect GG, Compulsive Research pitching yosei that they gave you with Gifts
5. Vengance, GG, LOCK
Even without the Bop
2. STE
3. Gifts
4. Recollect GG
5. Compulsive Research
6. Vengeance, GG, LOCK
Another play that I'm a big fan of is in the last example of a game playing out is on turn 5 with I Compulsive Research pitching Yosei, to also Footsteps Yosei, then lock next turn when they're tapped out from the first one.
Hope this helped you guys see how my deck ticks. To be honest, Wrath is dead tech. The way to beat agro is to Kagemaro (if you have to), or just Yosei lock before they burn you out. Kokusho life gain also helps.
-AJ
Man do you own ***S? If you dont own them running Kagemaro over them is fine. But Any body who has playtested wrath against agro will never speak ill of it....Im quite certain of that...
Probably does. He is a ripper(I didn't trade with him on here, but I did on MTGNews.), so it shouldn't be to hard for him to get. Suprisingly though, hes traded succesfully 3 times on here.
I think you need to run Yoseis in mass numbers. Its just more reliable.
This is deck is doing pretty good at French Regionals, but a lot of them aren't play Gifts. What do you guys think about not running Gifts?
1 [SOK] Miren, the Moaning Well
6 [RAV] Forest (2)
5 [RAV] Plains (2)
5 [RAV] Swamp (2)
4 [RAV] Temple Garden
2 [RAV] Overgrown Tomb
// Creatures
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
4 [CHK] Yosei, the Morning Star
3 [CHK] Kokusho, the Evening Star
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [GP] Mortify
4 [CHK] Kodama's Reach
2 [RAV] Farseek
3 [BOK] Goryo's Vengeance
4 [9E] Wrath of God
3 [9E] Greater Good
and ...
1 Okina temple of the grandfathers
3 Plains
2 Overgrown tomb
1 Godless shrine
4 Temple garden
1 Miren the moaning well
1 Shizo death's storehouse
2 Tendo ice bridge
2 Brushland
2 Swamp
4 Sakura tribe elder
2 Kokusho the evenng star
4 Loxodon hierarch
4 Yosei the morning star
3 Sensei's divining top
4 Kodama's reach
3 Goryo's vengeance
4 Wrath of god
3 Putrefy
2 Congregation at dawn
1 Seed spark
3 Greater good
I like the inclusion of Congregation of Dawn in the 2nd GG list, the first list is a more beatdown combatant list, but it was the higher ranking of the two. I can see why some went without Gifts, it drastically improves the manabase allowing Kodama to be more useful, and taking less pain from your lands.
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Yes, of course I have my playset, but they're just slow and unecesary. 1 Kagemaro is easy to gifts up and cast/reanimate while wrath forces you to overextend your mana base to accomadate (sp) it. Yosei locking quickly is better than stalling out and wrathing and stalling some more, then finally hardcasting that damn thing to get into the lock, which is what most of those decks are doing. I was actually thinking of cutting Kagemaro for another Compulsive Research, cause that card is nuts.
Wrath of God also takes up 4 slots that can be used on better things, like more reanimation, since most of you aren't running a whole lot. It also makes Birds of Paradise bad, which is reasonable because you don't want to wrath away all your mana sources, but BoP maximizes goldfishing the lock soo much more than playing defense against agro.
Proxy the deck. Just grab a pile of jank commons and a sharpie, and jot the deck down. Just card names, it's not going to be used for anything but for you to goldfish it.
Shuffle up really well, and draw seven. THEN tell me that it's not better then the *** versions.
-AJ
@ Evan - I thought I finished all my deals on MtGNews. What trade did we do, and what did I owe you? PM me the details, I'm more than willing to work it out. I did with everyone else who didn't get the cards I sent at the same time I sent yours.
@ DvK - While I am reliant on Gifts a lot more than other builds, it's not necesary to locking turn 6, just helpful to lock turn 4-5 and more consistantly on turn 6. I just Compulsive Research and reanimate Kokusho and sac to Greater Good and draw into the peices. Usually after one Koke-GG sac I either have the lock, or lethal damage, and the Compulsive Researches make it easier to get into a position to win.
RU Magnivore
RUG Sea Stompy
BWGUGreater Gifts
Well, the thing about no Gifts and no draw is that they all run 4 copies of Top. They have basically accomidated ridiculous ammounts of shuffling into the deck which causes Top to practically be an Ancestral Recall every time you shuffle up (except less with the card advantage and more with the card selection). You don't get all the cards but in my experience with the deck you get the cards that you need. When you don't get Top, however, the game gets A LOT harder. One of the decks ran 3 tops but made up for it with Congregation, setting up an absolute lock with GG in play.
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We love you too Mitch, we love you too.
"Girls are like Voltron: the more you stick together, the better it gets." SE
I think that the GWb builds that were more prominent around States should come back into focus a little bit more, since this deck was designed to wreck aggro. Castigate would probably be the largest addition to the sideboard, in place of Nightmare Void; Putrefy/Mortify should replace Devouring Light to combat Owl/Phyrexian Arena. The shuffle effects make Top a better choice than Arena, and the possible inclusion of Congregation at Dawn fits better here than any other deck.
If your meta is mainly aggro or combo, rather than control, wouldn't dropping Gifts Ungiven become a more viable option?
Round 1 - 0-0 -Chris with Heartbeat Combo
He's my best friend and ride to the cardshop, so it was pretty bad when we had to play in the first round. Game one I'm about to go off turn 6 when he remands my GG, but he just transmutes for Weird Harvest and Kodama's Reaches and passes turn. I play GG, Sac BoP discarding 2 Yosei and a Kokusho and show him my hand of Footsteps, Reach, and 2 Vengeance. We go to game two.
Once again I go off the turn before he does. Needless to say, he wasn't happy showing me a hand of Heartbeat, Heartbeat, Weird Harvest, Early Harvest with 7 or 8 lands on the table.
Round Two - 1-0 - No Glare variant
Game one is a long, drawn out game. I'm going to lock turn 6 when he plays a Yosei. This slows me down for a turn as my Footsteps of the Goryo becomes spot removal. We trade, draw go, draw land go. He untaps and plays another Yosei. Great. After some fancy top spinning and reanimation, I finally lock. It takes me an extra turn because of Loxodon Hierarch, but finding and discarding my second Kokusho took care of that.
Game two we go to time. He extracts Gifts Ungiven on turn 4, and I hard cast Kokusho. He Mortifies it and I drain, then I Vengeance him and play Greater Good. He complains that I lucked out by playing the Vengeance first, but I inform him there was zero luck involved. Before damage he mortifies GG, and I sacrifice him. Draining for 5 more, finding another Kokusho (there were 3 in my deck after boarding another in) and a Vengeance, I vengeance and attack for 5, then Footsteps the other. He Mortifies (THIRD ONE!!) the one in play in response to Footsteps, but I have another Footsteps and just enough mana for it barely enough to kill him (somewhere in there a Greater Good got Fettared)
Round 3 - 2-0 - Zoo
Game one I keep a not-so-great hand where my first play is a Kodama's Reach. Then a Tribe Elder and another reach on the next turn, then a Gifts for Kagemaro and some Reanimation. I blow up the world while at 2 life, but he has Flames of Bloodhand.
Game two I have a slow hand, but learned from the first game and mulliganed it away drawing into a much better hand. Turn 3 Gifts, Turn 4 Greater Good, turn 5 Compulsive Research pitching Yosei, Vengeance him and LOCK.
Game three I made terrible playmistakes with a top, and don't find Gifts either, which definitly didn't help.
Round 3 - 2-1 - Oscar with Emminant Domain
My friend Jake, who also played a similar build to mine (except with Angel), had lost to him round 1, so hopes weren't up, but I developed my mana too far for him to steal enough lands to impact me locking on turn 6 thanks to a turn 4 Gifts, which I topped into. Things just went well for me, and he didn't disrupt me nearly fast enough.
Game two I board in 3 Naturalize and 1 Life from the Loam. I play turn one BoP. I then catch him miss a third land drop, so I Naturalize his Signet instead of K. Reaching. He clasms away my Birds, and I Reach the next turn. He plays a signet. I have a naturalize, but decide not to use it. He then chains mana into 2 more signets. I untap and have 6 mana. I ALMOST hardcasted a Kokusho, but I made the better play and Naturalized his signet to keep him off of six mana if he topdecks the land to prevent a Wildfire. He Dream Leashes a land and I Gifts at end of turn. Locking was a peice of cake soon after.
After the game, he complains about the luck of such a bad play of Naturalizing Signets instead of the land stealing enchantments, and I explained that I saw him miss his land drop so I tried to keep him from Annex mana and the sort, and the second time to keep him off of Wildfire mana. He then told me he did have Wildfire and said I still lucked out. Poor losers are so sad.
-AJ
P.S. Don't say I lost to Zoo because my lack of ***. The first game was a bad hand against him (although a good hand against a slow deck), and third game I lost due to some bad top spinning and lack of a Gifts Ungiven. The Zoo match-up is actually a good one for me as I can randomly wrath with no White sources, so they dont think to hold back, and even if they do, after I do it once, every reanimation spell and recursion spell in my deck becomes a Wrath.
Creatures (18)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Yosei the Morning Star
4 Kokusho the Evening Star
2 Nikko-Onna
Spells (17)
4 Kodama's Reach
4 Wrath of God
3 Mortify
3 Goryo's Vengeance
3 Footsteps of Goryo
Enchantements (3)
3 Greater Good
Land (22)
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Shizo, Deaths Storehouse
1 Okina, Temple of the Grandfathers
1 Svogthos, the Restless Tomb
2 Godless Shrine
3 Swamp
3 Plains
4 Forest
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Temple Garden
Sideboard (15)
4 Castigate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Putrefy
2 Debtors’ Knell
2 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
1 Mortify
Ive been testing variants of this deck for months now and this is the latest build ive come up with.
Nikko-Onna has some nice synergy in the deck with the other arcane spells and dragons letting me recur it. There are some pretty powerful enchantments out there right now (faiths fetters, phyrexian arena, moldervine cloak etc)
I really prefer castigate over cranial extraction right now because you can often knock BW's disruption out of its hand before its played on you. If you start vs control you can easily sneak castigate under their counterspells. castigate is also great mid-game for forcing though a spell on your turn by forcing them to counter it.
Debtor's Knell is quite underated right now and its a nice backup win condition games 2-3 if needed.
vs control decks i bring in 4x castigate + 2x Ink-Eyes.
-John Lennon
Current Decks
GUBRHeartbeat Combo
BGRizzo Fo Shizzo
BWVariants
RGGruul Beats
RGWZoo
-AJ
-John Lennon
Current Decks
GUBRHeartbeat Combo
BGRizzo Fo Shizzo
BWVariants
RGGruul Beats
RGWZoo
The extra reanimation helps lock faster, and if you want to play ***, then that's fine (even though I think it overextends the mana base), but *** on top of spot removal is just wishing that you play agro all day, and that your mana base follows the colors of your cards each game
-AJ
ive updated my sb, it now looks like this...
Sideboard (15)
4 Castigate
3 Cranial Extraction
3 Putrefy
3 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
im still not sure about the ink-eyes, they are great vs blue-based control decks but im just not seeing many of that style deck in my metagame right now... its mostly BW agro/ghostdad, zoo/gruul with a little RW/RWU Control.
the last top8 (64 players) in my area was)...
Heartbeat
BW Aggro
Gruul
Ghost Dad
BW Aggro
RWg Control (wierd combo deck with reverse the sands)
Zoo
Ghost Dad
I think the ink-eyes should be something else, possibly mindslicers, persecutes, pithing needles or 4th copies of cranial + mortify.
any suggestions?
WIth that overextended mana-base, you'd be lucky to cast it turn 4 consistantly, and even if you do, you're not going to be able to get your mana back up to the point where you can combo out.
No, you don't. The first match is about 55/45 in their favor. What you do is Turn 3 Gifts for Kagemaro/Yosei and dump them in the yard, then turn 4 Vengeance Kagemaro and Sac'em. You'll usually be at around 8 after this on turn 4/5, and then you combo out before they can draw into enough burn to finish you off. Another good defense is to go off turn 4-5, but that obviously can't happen every time. If you have the mana to blow up Kagemaro after a hardcast on turn 4 (1:Bop, 2:Ste, 3:Gifts, 4: Hardcast and pop. Basically you need 2 Accelerants), then you can Gifts for Kagemaro, Footsteps, Vengeance, Compulsive Research. That way they give you a Combo piece and still enable a 'Wrath'.
Post board, you (I) bring in 4 Hierarchs and basically go along the same plan as pre-board, but with some help. This guy is like a Time Walk (Life total-wise) and usually bites some burn on his way down too. I didn't used to like the Hierarchs, but after Wrathing away a board of two BTS and an Ape, taking a shock to the head in the process, and being flashed 2 Flames of Blood hand and a Char, I decided I could probably make that match-up a little more favorable. Also, the one plains main makes Yosei hardcastable (needs BoP too) in a tight situation (Needle on GG game one I guess?)
I guess this is where we differ. If you want to scoop to Izzetron, Wildfire variants with LD, Owl, and Heartbeat then I guess you're right, but MAN do you crush agro.
-AJ
That first sentence definitly deserves a flame warning or something, because I obviously play this deck to be posting in this thread about the deck. And about Wrath, congrats, you play it on turn 3/4. Way to go, and now you have to sit there and rebuild your mana base and hand in order to combo out. Meanwhile, I wrath on turn 4/5 via Kagemaro, and go off turn 6/7 if I even bother at that point (I usually just go the Kokusho route and outrace them)
The mana base is weak, and even if they aren't terrible, they're still worse than my build. You say it's shaky against Vore? I roll Wildfire. I roll Izzetron. I roll Heartbeat. I roll BW Agro, and I roll Ghostdad. I also go coinflip against Gruul/Zoo, and then beat them both games post board. This happened yesterday at FNM twice.
And yes, Standard is dominated by combo. That's why Heartbeat is the deck to beat while Agro is just there to trash Izzetron and other slow control decks.
Also, I did mention BW agro, and Ghost Dad isn't an agro deck. A/C at best.
So in closing, you go 2-0 against Agro and scoop to Vore/Heartbeat/Izzetron and so on while I go 2-1 against Agro, and crush the rest of the decks. Right now BW Agro with heavy discard, and Knell Control are the only match-ups that I'm having a real problem with.
-AJ