JMDT, I haven't forgot about this deck, my auntie wort just needed (still needs) A LOT of work balancing control with having enough aggro. The first version I played 2 nights ago was way to aggro heavy and didn't have strong enough things to do with my mid/late turns, and it didn't have enough removal. It had me second guessing my ability to mtg yesterday morning and didn't want to give bunk advice. After thinking about it a bit more, I just needed a lot more destruction, and my confidence is restored! I hope that last message I sent you wasn't TOO rambling, ill make a more refined one here after your changes show up in the list.
In the mean time, I think the only infect worth this deck is inkmoth nexus. That guy has proven on multiple occasions he is willing to be the only infect and still take care of business. I have had bad experiences with skitherex splitting his damage. Inkmoth you don't feel bad when it doesn't work. He can be a great alt win con, you already have the support for it. It can also swing in the turn you wrath. The real reason though is inkmoth doesn't exactly need much in the way of deck slots.
Keep an eye on withering boon. I bought one for xhd and took it out after 3-4 games. That deck has a little more destruction this this one, and I was finding myself asking 'why keep mana out for a counter when I am just going to clear the board away anyways'. I am curious what you think of it after you get some games in with it.
I love that necrogen mists, I just pulled one out for wort. If you have a liliana of the veil, she might serve as another one. Liliana of the dark realms could be great here too. All of her abilities rock for a big mana black deck, shes an all-star in xhd, you might like her in chainer too.
One(two... I lied) last mana card(s) worth consideration. You have a general and half a dozen cards that get better the more swamps you have. Thawing Glaciers, and depending on draw, snagging another copy of terrain generator for this deck could be helpful.
Yeah I've learned over 2-3 iterations that the control is just as important as the aggro. Especially with multiple 40 life opponents. If we don't limit the opponent's resources somehow, we'll never get damage into the red zone. I look at the list and think the discard and destruction is too much, but it is needed for the aggro portion to work.
Yeah, Inkmoth's nexus would be the only viable infect. However, you have to also take into account that a land has to be fundamentally game changing in this deck to warrant inclusion over a swamp. I need to work in Ur-Cof eventually, but otherwise, I think I have a good balance of swamps.
I really liked Withering boon. I have less means of control, so keeping an ETB guy off the field is often better than killing him after the fact. Two mana is also quite nice.
Ideally I'd have thawing glaciers along with a full compliment of fetches and Crucible of Worlds and Rings of Brighthearth, but one day, lol. They seriously need to reprint those fetches and crucible so I can get/trade for them cheaper. I may have to borrow them from chainer one day just for kicks, lol.
Necrogen Mists is nice, especially once we get card draw online. Liliana of the viel...I'm less excited about. If anything, she's less 'permanent' as a discard engine. I actually traded mine for my Sword of Fire and Ice recently, so I doubt I'll try her at her current $$ price. Liliana of the Dark Realms wants to be in here for sure.
A few comments from my 3 games over the weekend. I really like the way the deck plays out with the lower curve. I paid attention to the cards I changed to see what a difference particular changes made. Nether Traitor was amazing, the 2 small mana rocks proved their worth, Life's Finale won me a game. The decks takes off quite fast and almost everything is an option.
I did see a few thing I need to work on:
I need more low CMC draw power. This deck sorely needs draw within the 1st 4 turns to really take off. Harvester of souls is a useless draw engine in this deck (wants to be Dark Confidant when I find a cheap one) and Promise of Power probably needs to be 1 CMC less to have a larger impact. I have so many 1/1 -ish guys, I really need skullclamp. I probably need to drop it in for one of the equipment (I seem to have 1 too many. Strata Scythe is my leading candidate, but Loxodon Warhammer is also a though) or Geth's Grimoire (I haven't got grimoire out yet to see what it can do, discarding happens, but not always reliably).
Stronghold Overseer can make my other guys weaker if shadow isn't around. He'll be a swap when XHD comes in. I'll have to think about what to put DHG in for.
I really want Mutilate as a second Wrath effect. I quite honestly question if Life's Finale is worth it over Damnation just to regenerate. I guess testing will tell for sure.
Your single targeted discard amount seems high. Are they ever dead cards - either due to low mana or redundancy? ( I actually really want to know how they are working). Another card I have been staring at lately due to some other forum goers is Uba Mask, I have looked over this card so many times in a deck box. I think spells that hit all opponents are very nice. How have the specters been. Maybe cut mind sludge or a 4 drop specter? If you are liking the amount you have, then keep with it though. Your single targeted creature kill is high too. But I guess that lets your general get through. Also, Increasing Ambition takes a lot of mana, do you need whatever he gets you more than doing other stuff?
Jeez, Lilliana is expensive! My brother and their friends need to finish their standard tournies so I can borrow his again. Seems like that price is inflated by standard, good trade imo.
I originally linked Life's Finale because it was in gatherer, and I didn't want to forget it. Glad it is working, I can see it not working too. And yes get mutilate in here. Let us know how these changes continue to work for you.
And back to some random discard thing~ Something I ended up only adding accidentally was Ill-gotten Gains with Leyline of the Void. Turns out to be pretty nasty discard/recursion. Probably bad in chainer, but its possible here. I am still sort of testing both of these and can't recommend them to highly yet; ill gains by itself seems counter synergy with your other discard.
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Your single targeted discard amount seems high. Are they ever dead cards - either due to low mana or redundancy? ( I actually really want to know how they are working). Another card I have been staring at lately due to some other forum goers is Uba Mask, I have looked over this card so many times in a deck box. I think spells that hit all opponents are very nice. How have the specters been. Maybe cut mind sludge or a 4 drop specter? If you are liking the amount you have, then keep with it though. Your single targeted creature kill is high too. But I guess that lets your general get through. Also, Increasing Ambition takes a lot of mana, do you need whatever he gets you more than doing other stuff?
Jeez, Lilliana is expensive! My brother and their friends need to finish their standard tournies so I can borrow his again. Seems like that price is inflated by standard, good trade imo.
I originally linked Life's Finale because it was in gatherer, and I didn't want to forget it. Glad it is working, I can see it not working too. And yes get mutilate in here. Let us know how these changes continue to work for you.
And back to some random discard thing~ Something I ended up only adding accidentally was Ill-gotten Gains with Leyline of the Void. Turns out to be pretty nasty discard/recursion. Probably bad in chainer, but its possible here. I am still sort of testing both of these and can't recommend them to highly yet; ill gains by itself seems counter synergy with your other discard.
The single targeted discard has its ups and downs. Effectively, some of the best removal we have is proactive discard removal. How much I need it really depends on the number of players I'm facing, what colors they are playing and also how much draw they have. If I have out Words of Waste or have been smacking around with specters they can be dead cards for a while. Mind Twist seems best played in the middle of the game, maybe the turn before you plan to start 'going off' to proactively nuke the hand of the most threatening player. I've learned that Mind twist for x=2 to empty the hand can make a big difference, especially if they pack counters, exile, or wraths. With the higher curve, mana to cast mind twist was occasionally a problem, but should become less so as I drop the curve down. I do probably have one too many discard spells. There have been those times that I had two in hand without a great use for either. I can agree that mind sludge is probably the weakest of the three, especially early, and also has a higher CMC.
Along the same lines as the single target discard, I may have one creature kill spell too many. With I up the draw with Bob and skullclamp, I'll draw into them more often and would need a bit less. I really need to swap one of them for a board wipe, probably ashes to ashes for Mutilate. requiring 2 creatures has bit me a time or two. Originally, I thought I'd not worry about wraths and just use spot removal to remove problem permanents. My thinking was, I'd be unblockable with equipment and what they did didn't matter. In practice, I need those wraths to stave off those stupid token decks and other aggro decks like Azusa. I didn't intend to play a more controlly deck, but this is black, its what we do. The other guys have bigger creatures (except Korlash) so we blow them up and smack them inbetween.
Yeah liliana...I may purchase another if/when she goes down, but she is getting crazy. She could swap in for Necrogen Mists and do a better job, but also die. Her ultimate does not have EDH in mind so I always have had issues singling out 1 player with it.
Leyline of the void is definitely something I should look into. I had it on my list twice and the shop was out of it. With that kind of discard, and no way to abuse it, I could get myself in a precarious situation versus some decks. Ill-gotten Gains could be nice as a way to get back a lash and effectively win the game. I've stared at it in the case several times and I keep thinking 'I don't want that do I? In practice, it seems like a 'fixed' Yawgmoth's Will/Mindslicer hybrid. Something to look at.
Have you looked into the combination of Contamination and Bitterblossom to give you time to set up your aggro plan?
Bitterblossom will make its way into the deck when I get the funds to pick up a copy. Getting Bob (which came in today!!!) ate up most of my funds for the month, lol. Blossom comes down early and makes a stream of tokens that are evasive sword carriers or nice chump blockers.
Contamination...we'll see how strong the deck is once I tune it a bit more. Its an exceptionally mean card that I'd rather not resort to unless I just find it impossible to be competitive against a table.
Speaking of the table...I realize aggro/voltron, especially in this color, isn't the strongest strategy, but are there any ways other than the lashes and swords to push damage through? Effectively I need to get the deck to pump out 120 damage with guys or 63 damage with Korlash and figure out the fastest and/or most effective way to do that. Due to the nature of Korlash and the lashes, killing everyone quick is just impractical. I need double digit swamps to really start dishing the pain with those guys and as I lower the curve to get the deck running faster I lose some of my bigger hitters (not that they were doing much regardless.) Sorin Markov helps a bunch, but I don't always have him and he rarely is able to hit a second player, much less a 3rd.
I'm complaining like the deck is terrible, but that isn't the case. Once it gets going, I beat face and I can effectively one shot someone with Korlash out of nowhere. Generally speaking, I also don't have to push all the damage out on the field either. Others will send damage across the table as well. I guess the tinkerer in me just wants to push the envelope and get more damage out of the deck while also lowering the average CMC of my creatures.
I guess my issue is, I feel the deck is starting to rely on Korlash too much. He is just plain nuts with equipment and when made unblockable. I have plan B of letting Nirkana Revenant or Nether Traitor hit the opponent, but unfortunately those guys are half as effective. They still can and do get the job done though. My general issue is the lack of a plan C. If for whatever reason my creatures are shut down I feel like I'm having a thumb twiddling moment. Maybe that's the danger of an aggro 1st deck and making the aggro more aggroey will solve my problem, but I'd think there is some additional way to kill the table without resorting to something like kokusho, the evening star or exsanguinate
Bitterblossom will make its way into the deck when I get the funds to pick up a copy. Getting Bob (which came in today!!!) ate up most of my funds for the month, lol. Blossom comes down early and makes a stream of tokens that are evasive sword carriers or nice chump blockers.
Contamination...we'll see how strong the deck is once I tune it a bit more. Its an exceptionally mean card that I'd rather not resort to unless I just find it impossible to be competitive against a table.
Speaking of the table...I realize aggro/voltron, especially in this color, isn't the strongest strategy, but are there any ways other than the lashes and swords to push damage through? Effectively I need to get the deck to pump out 120 damage with guys or 63 damage with Korlash and figure out the fastest and/or most effective way to do that. Due to the nature of Korlash and the lashes, killing everyone quick is just impractical. I need double digit swamps to really start dishing the pain with those guys and as I lower the curve to get the deck running faster I lose some of my bigger hitters (not that they were doing much regardless.) Sorin Markov helps a bunch, but I don't always have him and he rarely is able to hit a second player, much less a 3rd.
I'm complaining like the deck is terrible, but that isn't the case. Once it gets going, I beat face and I can effectively one shot someone with Korlash out of nowhere. Generally speaking, I also don't have to push all the damage out on the field either. Others will send damage across the table as well. I guess the tinkerer in me just wants to push the envelope and get more damage out of the deck while also lowering the average CMC of my creatures.
I guess my issue is, I feel the deck is starting to rely on Korlash too much. He is just plain nuts with equipment and when made unblockable. I have plan B of letting Nirkana Revenant or Nether Traitor hit the opponent, but unfortunately those guys are half as effective. They still can and do get the job done though. My general issue is the lack of a plan C. If for whatever reason my creatures are shut down I feel like I'm having a thumb twiddling moment. Maybe that's the danger of an aggro 1st deck and making the aggro more aggroey will solve my problem, but I'd think there is some additional way to kill the table without resorting to something like kokusho, the evening star or exsanguinate
Muwahahahaha, I believe I have introduced you to my good little friend Inkmoth Nexus?
I think Duathi Trapper might be a good cut. That tap to use on a general support creature I think is clunky. You might try nexus proxied in his place for a few games.
There are too many fun ways to take a mono black deck. In multiplayer with four people, the control elements look strongest to me. If your deck starts to get stale, you could slide into more into that, with the equip and your general more as speeding along the inevitable.
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Muwahahahaha, I believe I have introduced you to my good little friend Inkmoth Nexus?
I think Duathi Trapper might be a good cut. That tap to use on a general support creature I think is clunky. You might try nexus proxied in his place for a few games.
There are too many fun ways to take a mono black deck. In multiplayer with four people, the control elements look strongest to me. If your deck starts to get stale, you could slide into more into that, with the equip and your general more as speeding along the inevitable.
I'm well aware of Inkmoth Nexus My problem is, I'm quite leery running lands not named Swamp. Maybe when I pick up Urborg I'll be more free with non-swamps.
Duathi Trapper has proven valuable so far, so I'll keep it for now. I can see it's strength weakening as I modify the deck. I'll keep my eye on it. I may swap him for filth if/when I get Urborg in the deck.
Yeah mono black definitely gives us options. I guess my biggest issue is I don't want the deck to morph in to Chainer 2.0 and play out the same. Inevitably in black we must play to our strong suit and have control and graveyard elements, but I want to spend more time beating face than blowing up stuff. I'll find that right balance as I play test more.
Here are a few thoughts I have on the direction I'm thinking:
1st off, I have few ETB guys and plan on cutting 1 or two of them. This tells me that foil Torpor Orb I picked up wants to find a slot in the deck. Its really some of the best control I can run. Those Acidic Slimes and Sylvan Primordials won't be eating my Lashwrithe nearly as easily. If I put Torpor Orb in, I'm seriously considering adding Haunted Horror. Even with the tokens, a 7/7 trampler for 2 mana has a ton of upsides.
I need more small guys with value and reach. Basilica Screecher and Nantuko Shade seem like two of the most valuable candidates. Extort with crypt ghast has been game changing so I imagine extort on a 2 mana evasive sword carrier will give me a lot more things to do with my mana and gain me valuable life. Shade gives me one of the few shades thats both cheap and worth its casting cost.
To help deal more damage before chewing my own life up, a few lifelinkers with evasion may also be wise adds. I'm eyeing Vault Skirge since I can effectively cast him for 1 mana and potetially Vampire Nighthawk since he's just amazingly efficient and can double as a life-gaining kill spell.
I'm staring at Mirri, the cursed and liking the haste and evasion, but I'm not sure otherwise. First strike does make her more difficult to block, especially with her ability. Sangromancer just does so many things and could gain a ton of life while helping beat face with the equipment.
So I picked up some cards and made some changes. Definitely let me know what you guys think; some of the cuts were hard and and I'd like your thoughts.
I have never used sword of vengence but every time I go to pull one out of my brothers box, he tells me not to because it sucks. Then he tells me to use one of his loxodon's instead if I don't want to get a sword of x&y. No idea how it actually is, would be curious to hear your thoughts
When I saw that brother the other day we talked a bit about discard. Delirium Skeins is one he pointed out to me. Good for wort, dunno bout here.
Nantuko shade, I think you should keep a close eye on him, see if you have the mana open to support him.
Gravegorn muse and bloodgift demon are both probably way better in this deck than in my xhd. I wipe the board a lot there, I think your strat is slightly different? I am trying to find them both slots in wort still which seems kind of similar in terms of removal. I am excited to see how they interact with discard.
Basilica Screecher. That guy I really want to know how he works out. I just pulled him out of the roommates commons today and took a hard look. Someone gave me a vindicate for my birthday and I got bw(x?) lifegain abuse on the mind or at least backburner. I love blood artist so much right now.
Also dual decks have ancient craving! Might just buy one of those for sorin too, or get the singles I want ~ not sure yet.
I have never used sword of vengence but every time I go to pull one out of my brothers box, he tells me not to because it sucks. Then he tells me to use one of his loxodon's instead if I don't want to get a sword of x&y. No idea how it actually is, would be curious to hear your thoughts
When I saw that brother the other day we talked a bit about discard. Delirium Skeins is one he pointed out to me. Good for wort, dunno bout here.
Nantuko shade, I think you should keep a close eye on him, see if you have the mana open to support him.
Gravegorn muse and bloodgift demon are both probably way better in this deck than in my xhd. I wipe the board a lot there, I think your strat is slightly different? I am trying to find them both slots in wort still which seems kind of similar in terms of removal. I am excited to see how they interact with discard.
Basilica Screecher. That guy I really want to know how he works out. I just pulled him out of the roommates commons today and took a hard look. Someone gave me a vindicate for my birthday and I got bw(x?) lifegain abuse on the mind or at least backburner. I love blood artist so much right now.
Also dual decks have ancient craving! Might just buy one of those for sorin too, or get the singles I want ~ not sure yet.
I like Sword of Vengeance for the haste/trample combo. Haste and evasionish make Korlash or Nirkana Revenant turn into monsters. I thought about it and talked to several guys at the shop and we all came to the conclusion Vengeance was better than Loxodon Warhammer for this application.
Delirium Skeins is interesting. I like the effect of 3 to the table, but I'm not a fan of discarding 3. I can see how it works.
I didn't get a chance to get Nantuko Shade out yet. Mana to support him typically isn't an issue, although I tend to always want to play something else. I'll keep my eye on him, he definitely has bomb potential. Graveborn Muse and/or Graveborn Muse may make their way back into the deck yet. There are a few slots I'm still watching to see how strong the cards are in practice.
On that note, Basilica Screecher was a standout from my playtesting. Extort is a very powerful ability for black decks...ashame white got the 2 drop enchantment. My line of play is usually, play draw, play extorter, drain while playing other stuff. I was getting 5-6 triggers while he was on the field. He also holds a sword like a boss.
I don't want to buy the dual deck for 1 card. I will probably hit Ancient Craving on my next on-line order.
A few notes from play:
With the lowered curve, the deck is much faster and less resilient on Korlash. He's there when we need him, but we have a plethora of other plays as well. With so many lower CMC options, I went form 1-2 lines of play, to sometimes 5 or 6. The deck is definitely more interactive now. With a lower resilience on Korlash, I'm starting to doubt the inclusion of Imp's Mischief for protection.
Dark Confidant exceeded my expectations. When he dropped turn 2 in two games, I won. Setting up card draw that early is quite powerful. I also got good mileage off of Dark Tutelage. It's not as good as Bob, but its still another phyrexian arena and I was glad to see it in the early turns.
Liliana of the Dark Realms was better than I expected. I got her to ultimate to go off one game and it was just silly. I cracked her ultimate while I had drana out and managed to smack someone for about 30 with her that turn. I don't imagine I'll see her ultimate often, but its power in undeniable.
Is the lifegain of Sangromancer worth it over something more aggressive?
How do you find yourself with the lower amount of tutoring? Vampiric Tutor could work well on the lower curve you are looking for.
Sangromancer is OK. We do have some discard, we don't kill creatures quite like a control deck would. You'll gain life while she's out, usually not as much as fast as the extorters though. We do burn through life fast so it is valuable here. She's a solid card, but not a care card; I wouldn't be opposed to swapping her for something else.
I had a fun 3 player game with Damia, Sage of Stone and a friend borrowing my Tibor and Lumia. I got out Sword of War and Peace and thanks to a combination of several wheel effects and Damia drawing to 7, I was dishing 10 damage per turn with SoWaP equipped on a 1/1 faerie token and gaining a ton of life. Even getting close to 50 life with SoWaP, I was burned down to 13with hits from both other players. I effectively beat the two down with SoWaP on the token and Lashwrithe and Sword of Fire and Ice on Abyssal Specter. I had help whittling down the life totals a bit as the other two guys fired a few volleys at each other along the way, but the aggro plan ran full force and I effectively won with 1/1 and 2/2 guys without ever drawing or playing any of my larger threats.
As in several games before, Basilica Screecher proved an unsung hero, comming in when I was low on life and extorting for 6 life each along the way and netting me 12 life. If not for the extorting I'd not have had enough attack to take out the Damia player and would have lost when they went again since it had pro black and would have killed me with commander damage.
I don't really think I need Vampiric Tutor, and I'm really not a fan of top -of-library tutors when I can get them in hand. I want my card NOW!!!
I don't think Geralf's Messenger does enough for the deck. There really aren't enough zombies to justify running Gravecrawler, especially since he can't block.
I picked up a temporal extortion that I am going to try in the deck. It seems like a card that whichever mode happens, I'm better off for. I either get an extra turn, or a mini sorin effect.
Yeah, when I said I had a response, everyone looked at me with a crazy stair, lol. Black counters are so fun.
Thanks, I fixed it.
Yeah I've learned over 2-3 iterations that the control is just as important as the aggro. Especially with multiple 40 life opponents. If we don't limit the opponent's resources somehow, we'll never get damage into the red zone. I look at the list and think the discard and destruction is too much, but it is needed for the aggro portion to work.
Yeah, Inkmoth's nexus would be the only viable infect. However, you have to also take into account that a land has to be fundamentally game changing in this deck to warrant inclusion over a swamp. I need to work in Ur-Cof eventually, but otherwise, I think I have a good balance of swamps.
I really liked Withering boon. I have less means of control, so keeping an ETB guy off the field is often better than killing him after the fact. Two mana is also quite nice.
Ideally I'd have thawing glaciers along with a full compliment of fetches and Crucible of Worlds and Rings of Brighthearth, but one day, lol. They seriously need to reprint those fetches and crucible so I can get/trade for them cheaper. I may have to borrow them from chainer one day just for kicks, lol.
Necrogen Mists is nice, especially once we get card draw online. Liliana of the viel...I'm less excited about. If anything, she's less 'permanent' as a discard engine. I actually traded mine for my Sword of Fire and Ice recently, so I doubt I'll try her at her current $$ price. Liliana of the Dark Realms wants to be in here for sure.
A few comments from my 3 games over the weekend. I really like the way the deck plays out with the lower curve. I paid attention to the cards I changed to see what a difference particular changes made. Nether Traitor was amazing, the 2 small mana rocks proved their worth, Life's Finale won me a game. The decks takes off quite fast and almost everything is an option.
I did see a few thing I need to work on:
I need more low CMC draw power. This deck sorely needs draw within the 1st 4 turns to really take off. Harvester of souls is a useless draw engine in this deck (wants to be Dark Confidant when I find a cheap one) and Promise of Power probably needs to be 1 CMC less to have a larger impact. I have so many 1/1 -ish guys, I really need skullclamp. I probably need to drop it in for one of the equipment (I seem to have 1 too many. Strata Scythe is my leading candidate, but Loxodon Warhammer is also a though) or Geth's Grimoire (I haven't got grimoire out yet to see what it can do, discarding happens, but not always reliably).
Stronghold Overseer can make my other guys weaker if shadow isn't around. He'll be a swap when XHD comes in. I'll have to think about what to put DHG in for.
I really want Mutilate as a second Wrath effect. I quite honestly question if Life's Finale is worth it over Damnation just to regenerate. I guess testing will tell for sure.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
Jeez, Lilliana is expensive! My brother and their friends need to finish their standard tournies so I can borrow his again. Seems like that price is inflated by standard, good trade imo.
I originally linked Life's Finale because it was in gatherer, and I didn't want to forget it. Glad it is working, I can see it not working too. And yes get mutilate in here. Let us know how these changes continue to work for you.
And back to some random discard thing~ Something I ended up only adding accidentally was Ill-gotten Gains with Leyline of the Void. Turns out to be pretty nasty discard/recursion. Probably bad in chainer, but its possible here. I am still sort of testing both of these and can't recommend them to highly yet; ill gains by itself seems counter synergy with your other discard.
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The single targeted discard has its ups and downs. Effectively, some of the best removal we have is proactive discard removal. How much I need it really depends on the number of players I'm facing, what colors they are playing and also how much draw they have. If I have out Words of Waste or have been smacking around with specters they can be dead cards for a while. Mind Twist seems best played in the middle of the game, maybe the turn before you plan to start 'going off' to proactively nuke the hand of the most threatening player. I've learned that Mind twist for x=2 to empty the hand can make a big difference, especially if they pack counters, exile, or wraths. With the higher curve, mana to cast mind twist was occasionally a problem, but should become less so as I drop the curve down. I do probably have one too many discard spells. There have been those times that I had two in hand without a great use for either. I can agree that mind sludge is probably the weakest of the three, especially early, and also has a higher CMC.
Along the same lines as the single target discard, I may have one creature kill spell too many. With I up the draw with Bob and skullclamp, I'll draw into them more often and would need a bit less. I really need to swap one of them for a board wipe, probably ashes to ashes for Mutilate. requiring 2 creatures has bit me a time or two. Originally, I thought I'd not worry about wraths and just use spot removal to remove problem permanents. My thinking was, I'd be unblockable with equipment and what they did didn't matter. In practice, I need those wraths to stave off those stupid token decks and other aggro decks like Azusa. I didn't intend to play a more controlly deck, but this is black, its what we do. The other guys have bigger creatures (except Korlash) so we blow them up and smack them inbetween.
Increasing Ambition is a love hate relationship. I have won flashing it back before, but at the same time, costing 5 in the first place has set me back. At minimum it needs to be Diabolic tutor. What I will probably do is swap it and Promise of Power for Ancient Craving and Ambition's Cost and see how that works.
Yeah liliana...I may purchase another if/when she goes down, but she is getting crazy. She could swap in for Necrogen Mists and do a better job, but also die. Her ultimate does not have EDH in mind so I always have had issues singling out 1 player with it.
Leyline of the void is definitely something I should look into. I had it on my list twice and the shop was out of it. With that kind of discard, and no way to abuse it, I could get myself in a precarious situation versus some decks. Ill-gotten Gains could be nice as a way to get back a lash and effectively win the game. I've stared at it in the case several times and I keep thinking 'I don't want that do I? In practice, it seems like a 'fixed' Yawgmoth's Will/Mindslicer hybrid. Something to look at.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
RWU Nom Nom Numot: The Hungry Devastator
GUB Damia's BUG-ifact Parade: all artifacts, all the time
GWG Trostani, Selesnya's Voice of Madness
GUG Edric, weenie master of DOOM
BRB Olivia Voldaren, Your creatures = MINE!
Bitterblossom will make its way into the deck when I get the funds to pick up a copy. Getting Bob (which came in today!!!) ate up most of my funds for the month, lol. Blossom comes down early and makes a stream of tokens that are evasive sword carriers or nice chump blockers.
Contamination...we'll see how strong the deck is once I tune it a bit more. Its an exceptionally mean card that I'd rather not resort to unless I just find it impossible to be competitive against a table.
Speaking of the table...I realize aggro/voltron, especially in this color, isn't the strongest strategy, but are there any ways other than the lashes and swords to push damage through? Effectively I need to get the deck to pump out 120 damage with guys or 63 damage with Korlash and figure out the fastest and/or most effective way to do that. Due to the nature of Korlash and the lashes, killing everyone quick is just impractical. I need double digit swamps to really start dishing the pain with those guys and as I lower the curve to get the deck running faster I lose some of my bigger hitters (not that they were doing much regardless.) Sorin Markov helps a bunch, but I don't always have him and he rarely is able to hit a second player, much less a 3rd.
I'm complaining like the deck is terrible, but that isn't the case. Once it gets going, I beat face and I can effectively one shot someone with Korlash out of nowhere. Generally speaking, I also don't have to push all the damage out on the field either. Others will send damage across the table as well. I guess the tinkerer in me just wants to push the envelope and get more damage out of the deck while also lowering the average CMC of my creatures.
I guess my issue is, I feel the deck is starting to rely on Korlash too much. He is just plain nuts with equipment and when made unblockable. I have plan B of letting Nirkana Revenant or Nether Traitor hit the opponent, but unfortunately those guys are half as effective. They still can and do get the job done though. My general issue is the lack of a plan C. If for whatever reason my creatures are shut down I feel like I'm having a thumb twiddling moment. Maybe that's the danger of an aggro 1st deck and making the aggro more aggroey will solve my problem, but I'd think there is some additional way to kill the table without resorting to something like kokusho, the evening star or exsanguinate
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
Muwahahahaha, I believe I have introduced you to my good little friend Inkmoth Nexus?
I think Duathi Trapper might be a good cut. That tap to use on a general support creature I think is clunky. You might try nexus proxied in his place for a few games.
There are too many fun ways to take a mono black deck. In multiplayer with four people, the control elements look strongest to me. If your deck starts to get stale, you could slide into more into that, with the equip and your general more as speeding along the inevitable.
Gitrog Lands
Merieke Ri Berit Flicker
Ramos, Dragon Engine Storm
I'm well aware of Inkmoth Nexus My problem is, I'm quite leery running lands not named Swamp. Maybe when I pick up Urborg I'll be more free with non-swamps.
Duathi Trapper has proven valuable so far, so I'll keep it for now. I can see it's strength weakening as I modify the deck. I'll keep my eye on it. I may swap him for filth if/when I get Urborg in the deck.
Yeah mono black definitely gives us options. I guess my biggest issue is I don't want the deck to morph in to Chainer 2.0 and play out the same. Inevitably in black we must play to our strong suit and have control and graveyard elements, but I want to spend more time beating face than blowing up stuff. I'll find that right balance as I play test more.
Here are a few thoughts I have on the direction I'm thinking:
1st off, I have few ETB guys and plan on cutting 1 or two of them. This tells me that foil Torpor Orb I picked up wants to find a slot in the deck. Its really some of the best control I can run. Those Acidic Slimes and Sylvan Primordials won't be eating my Lashwrithe nearly as easily. If I put Torpor Orb in, I'm seriously considering adding Haunted Horror. Even with the tokens, a 7/7 trampler for 2 mana has a ton of upsides.
I'm thinking of running Dark Tutelage along with Dark confidant and a lower curve to just help power cards out. With these additions along with skullclamp, I may be able to remove Bloodgift Demon/graveborn muse and swap in some more aggressive creature.
I need more small guys with value and reach. Basilica Screecher and Nantuko Shade seem like two of the most valuable candidates. Extort with crypt ghast has been game changing so I imagine extort on a 2 mana evasive sword carrier will give me a lot more things to do with my mana and gain me valuable life. Shade gives me one of the few shades thats both cheap and worth its casting cost.
To help deal more damage before chewing my own life up, a few lifelinkers with evasion may also be wise adds. I'm eyeing Vault Skirge since I can effectively cast him for 1 mana and potetially Vampire Nighthawk since he's just amazingly efficient and can double as a life-gaining kill spell.
I'm staring at Mirri, the cursed and liking the haste and evasion, but I'm not sure otherwise. First strike does make her more difficult to block, especially with her ability. Sangromancer just does so many things and could gain a ton of life while helping beat face with the equipment.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
I have never used sword of vengence but every time I go to pull one out of my brothers box, he tells me not to because it sucks. Then he tells me to use one of his loxodon's instead if I don't want to get a sword of x&y. No idea how it actually is, would be curious to hear your thoughts
When I saw that brother the other day we talked a bit about discard. Delirium Skeins is one he pointed out to me. Good for wort, dunno bout here.
Nantuko shade, I think you should keep a close eye on him, see if you have the mana open to support him.
Gravegorn muse and bloodgift demon are both probably way better in this deck than in my xhd. I wipe the board a lot there, I think your strat is slightly different? I am trying to find them both slots in wort still which seems kind of similar in terms of removal. I am excited to see how they interact with discard.
Basilica Screecher. That guy I really want to know how he works out. I just pulled him out of the roommates commons today and took a hard look. Someone gave me a vindicate for my birthday and I got bw(x?) lifegain abuse on the mind or at least backburner. I love blood artist so much right now.
Also dual decks have ancient craving! Might just buy one of those for sorin too, or get the singles I want ~ not sure yet.
Gitrog Lands
Merieke Ri Berit Flicker
Ramos, Dragon Engine Storm
I like Sword of Vengeance for the haste/trample combo. Haste and evasionish make Korlash or Nirkana Revenant turn into monsters. I thought about it and talked to several guys at the shop and we all came to the conclusion Vengeance was better than Loxodon Warhammer for this application.
Delirium Skeins is interesting. I like the effect of 3 to the table, but I'm not a fan of discarding 3. I can see how it works.
I didn't get a chance to get Nantuko Shade out yet. Mana to support him typically isn't an issue, although I tend to always want to play something else. I'll keep my eye on him, he definitely has bomb potential. Graveborn Muse and/or Graveborn Muse may make their way back into the deck yet. There are a few slots I'm still watching to see how strong the cards are in practice.
On that note, Basilica Screecher was a standout from my playtesting. Extort is a very powerful ability for black decks...ashame white got the 2 drop enchantment. My line of play is usually, play draw, play extorter, drain while playing other stuff. I was getting 5-6 triggers while he was on the field. He also holds a sword like a boss.
I don't want to buy the dual deck for 1 card. I will probably hit Ancient Craving on my next on-line order.
A few notes from play:
With the lowered curve, the deck is much faster and less resilient on Korlash. He's there when we need him, but we have a plethora of other plays as well. With so many lower CMC options, I went form 1-2 lines of play, to sometimes 5 or 6. The deck is definitely more interactive now. With a lower resilience on Korlash, I'm starting to doubt the inclusion of Imp's Mischief for protection.
Dark Confidant exceeded my expectations. When he dropped turn 2 in two games, I won. Setting up card draw that early is quite powerful. I also got good mileage off of Dark Tutelage. It's not as good as Bob, but its still another phyrexian arena and I was glad to see it in the early turns.
Liliana of the Dark Realms was better than I expected. I got her to ultimate to go off one game and it was just silly. I cracked her ultimate while I had drana out and managed to smack someone for about 30 with her that turn. I don't imagine I'll see her ultimate often, but its power in undeniable.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
How do you find yourself with the lower amount of tutoring? Vampiric Tutor could work well on the lower curve you are looking for.
RWU Nom Nom Numot: The Hungry Devastator
GUB Damia's BUG-ifact Parade: all artifacts, all the time
GWG Trostani, Selesnya's Voice of Madness
GUG Edric, weenie master of DOOM
BRB Olivia Voldaren, Your creatures = MINE!
Sangromancer is OK. We do have some discard, we don't kill creatures quite like a control deck would. You'll gain life while she's out, usually not as much as fast as the extorters though. We do burn through life fast so it is valuable here. She's a solid card, but not a care card; I wouldn't be opposed to swapping her for something else.
I had a fun 3 player game with Damia, Sage of Stone and a friend borrowing my Tibor and Lumia. I got out Sword of War and Peace and thanks to a combination of several wheel effects and Damia drawing to 7, I was dishing 10 damage per turn with SoWaP equipped on a 1/1 faerie token and gaining a ton of life. Even getting close to 50 life with SoWaP, I was burned down to 13with hits from both other players. I effectively beat the two down with SoWaP on the token and Lashwrithe and Sword of Fire and Ice on Abyssal Specter. I had help whittling down the life totals a bit as the other two guys fired a few volleys at each other along the way, but the aggro plan ran full force and I effectively won with 1/1 and 2/2 guys without ever drawing or playing any of my larger threats.
As in several games before, Basilica Screecher proved an unsung hero, comming in when I was low on life and extorting for 6 life each along the way and netting me 12 life. If not for the extorting I'd not have had enough attack to take out the Damia player and would have lost when they went again since it had pro black and would have killed me with commander damage.
I don't really think I need Vampiric Tutor, and I'm really not a fan of top -of-library tutors when I can get them in hand. I want my card NOW!!!
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
RWU Nom Nom Numot: The Hungry Devastator
GUB Damia's BUG-ifact Parade: all artifacts, all the time
GWG Trostani, Selesnya's Voice of Madness
GUG Edric, weenie master of DOOM
BRB Olivia Voldaren, Your creatures = MINE!
I don't think Geralf's Messenger does enough for the deck. There really aren't enough zombies to justify running Gravecrawler, especially since he can't block.
I picked up a temporal extortion that I am going to try in the deck. It seems like a card that whichever mode happens, I'm better off for. I either get an extra turn, or a mini sorin effect.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh