Hello fellow cube enthusiasts. I have been building and tuning this cube for about eight months now and though it is much younger than other cubes, I feel it has a lot of play. It is my goal to keep the cube at its current 360 card size. It supports a full pod of 8 drafters, though that has yet to happen due to numerous last-minute cancellations by my drafting circle. It is most commonly drafted in a grid format by two players or by groups of 4 or 6. I strive to give each color its own identity in draft rather than simply putting all the best cards from each color into a pile. I feel this creates the most interesting and fun draft format. I have put my focus recently on supporting archetypes that may be more in depth that "two color deck with cards that are that color". If cards seems underpowered (Pawn of Ulamog) it is likely due to the fact that they support a specific archetype. Any and all help is appreciated, with one caveat. If you have a suggested addition to the cube, please suggest a corresponding cut. I know there are many great Magic cards that have failed to make the cut thus far, but I plan to keep the cube at 360, so if you want something in, something else has to go. Thanks for all your help.
-kcon
Basic Information Cube Size: 360 cards Breakdown: 48 WUBRG (240) , 4 Multicolor per guild (40), 38 Artifact/Colorless, 42 Lands Standard or Theme: Standard Snow Lands: No Average Number of Players: 2-6 How Often Drafted: About once a week
Card Selection Proxies: Yes Powered: No Portal: Yes "Un" Cards: No Banned Cards for Power-Level:Sol Ring Banned Cards for Time Constraints: No Banned Cards for "fun" factor: No
Cube Design Standard or Multiplayer: Standard Sideboards?: Yes Color Balance: Yes (with some liberties taken) Gold Balance: Yes (with some liberties taken) Hybrid/Split/Kicker as Gold: Some/Yes/No Color Triggers as Gold: No Perfectly Balanced CMC: No
Any short list of cards you're looking to acquire in the near future? I noticed Elspeth, Knight-Errant is missing, for example, and I assume it's just because you don'ty currently have a copy to toss in?
Welcome to the cube forum, and happy cubing!
Quad Cloudpost in a 40-card deck seems pretty savage. Any intention of throwing Glimmerpost in with the same stipulations?
Any short list of cards you're looking to acquire in the near future? I noticed Elspeth, Knight-Errant is missing, for example, and I assume it's just because you don'ty currently have a copy to toss in?
Welcome to the cube forum, and happy cubing!
Quad Cloudpost in a 40-card deck seems pretty savage. Any intention of throwing Glimmerpost in with the same stipulations?
Hey. Thanks for the feedback.
Both Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Jace, the Mind Sculptor aren't currently in the list because they felt like "auto-picks" that made drafting less interesting. I haven't decided how I feel about the cut since the cards are so iconic, but that's why you won't find them in the list.
I haven't gotten to see Cloudpost in a deck yet, but I feel like playing four colorless sources could be worth the mana trade off, especially if you draft Primeval Titan. Glimmerpost could do similar amounts of work, but I think I'll wait to see the original locus in action before expanding on the idea.
Hey. Thanks for all the feedback. I'm not sure how exactly to respond to so much information, but I will start by addressing "suggested additions". I see where this type of analysis could be useful for making sure you are not missing any "cube staples" that would add to the format, but I worry this type of numerical analysis can slant all cubes towards being the same instead of address archetypes a given cube supports.
Recommended cards:
Balance Reasonable. Not frequently drafted by my group. Not highly supported, but have not tried it since adding more manafacts
Elspeth, Knight-Errant Skews a players draft. Opening this for your third pack causes you to reconsider your entire draft strategy. Feels bad for the format. May reconsider
Land Tax Often felt underwhelming. Doesn't promote any particular strategy.
Cloudgoat Ranger Decent high end for aggo. Slightly awkward in control. Doesn't really have a home where it is not outclassed
Enlightened Tutor Equipment is already powerful in such a small cube. It is not necessary to make it better
Ajani, Caller of the Pride This point will likely arise again, but I am looking to avoid planeswalker creep, and despite this card's power, Elspeth Knight-Errant would return first
Flickerwisp Would need to investigate adding more synergies with this card before considering
Kor Sanctifiers Could replace Disenchant, but doesn't really have a great home falling at 4 on the curve
Spectral Procession Proved too mana intensive for players to regularly draft
Kor Skyfisher Missed the cut by one. Would consider adding given a reasonble cut
Soltari Monk Double white cards were seldom drafted. I prefer to promote more splashable 2-drops to promote 2-color aggressive decks
Ajani Goldmane See Ajani, Caller of the Pride
Soltari Priest See Soltari Monk
Soltari Trooper This could be better than Daring Skyjek, but feels worse that Kor Skyfisher
Brainstorm This card doesn't really do anything unless you drafted every blue fetch (not an easy task)
Jace, the Mind Sculptor See Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Forbid This could replace Force Spike. Blue is tempo based and doesn't really want a 3 mana counter with upside
Force of Will Pitching blue cards is a much steeper price in this limited environment. Other counters get the nod first
Meloku the Clouded Mirror Underwhelming. Blue doesn't need a bevy of finishers, and Meloku was never as good as I hoped
Treachery Should probably be in the cube. Suggested cut?
Tinker Not really supported. Sundering Titan was cut for being underwhelming so there are only 2-3 "real" targets
Mystical Tutor Without something like Tinker or Storm, this card is usually just getting you something you would have drawn anyway
Ponder Better than Brainstorm, but still requires fetches to shine. Doesn't add to blue's identity
Impulse I don't remember cutting this. Would happily bring it back if provided with a suggested cut
Bribery This card gives blue an additonal edge over decks it already beats, but is still worth considering
Mana Drain This is practically power, and can warp games in unfun ways. If that has not been people's experience, I will try it
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage Avoiding planeswalker creep. JTMS gets the nod before the moonfolk
Dungeon Geists A reasonable addition especially when supporting tempo. What's the suggested cut?
Arcane Denial About 3rd or 4th on the list of counters to add. I like it, but there's only so much room.
Demonic Tutor A black staple, but in a small cube it's hard to justify a card that doesn't do anything on its own.
Hypnotic Specter Another classic. I would add it back in given a suggested cut.
Reanimate The epitome of reanimator, but as that is now a secondary strategy, cutting a few happens
Diregraf Ghoul Black aggro (not confused with attrition) is just not a great strategy. No one drafts it.
Carnophage See Diregraf Ghoul
Vampiric Tutor See Demonic Tutor
Dark Ritual This card doesn't do enough with combo not an option.
Necromancy No need for more reanimation spells.
Oona's Prowler Forgot that I cut this. Would happily add it back given a suggested cut
Vampire Hexmage Underwhelming and hard to cast. A lot of 2-drops just seem better
Nekrataal Had to cut this to support the attrition archetype. Need a suggested cut to put it back
Mind Twist Similar to Mana Drain. Makes for unfun games due to excess power level
Nezumi Graverobber Like Hexmage, this card is underwhelming where other 2-drops are better
Sarcomancy See Diregraf Ghoul
Snuff Out If this is as good as people seem to think, I will cut a different removal spell for it. Which one?
Consuming Vapors This can replace a removal spell too, but again, which one?
Vampire Lacerator See Diregraf Ghoul
Chainer's Edict This is worse than the removal spells I am playing. There's just not enough room
Plated Geopede A fine two drop worth consideration. What's the suggested cut?
Lightning Mauler See Plated Geopede
Avalanche Riders Doesn't do enough for four mana in my opinion. I'd rather have hasty game-enders
Manic Vandal Fine utility. Is this better than Hooligan or Torch Fiend?
Arc Trail A fine spell, but what do I cut?
Squee, Goblin Nabob I want to add this. I will find room.
Siege-Gang Commander Red doesn’t really want 5-drops. Kiki-Jiki made the cut because it seems like more fun
Greater Gargadon Supports Balance and Wildfire. I'll consider this if someone thinks those are fun enough
Spikeshot Elder I think this is just worse than the one-drops I have now. Am I wrong?
Hellrider Barely missed the cut in favor of "kill you now" hasters like
Blistering Firecat
Hero of Oxid Ridge See Hellrider
Chandra Nalaar Had this for a while, but struggled to find a deck that actually wanted it.
Wheel of Fortune A cool combo enabler for a cube that supports that archetype.
Firebolt What burn spell that is currently end gets cut for this?
Wildfire Would consider adding this and Burning of Xinye if people think that deck is fun
Arc Lightning See Arc Trail
Keldon Vandals See Manic Vandal
Mogg Fanatic See Spikeshot Elder
Regrowth Combo enabler. Otherwise it seems underwhelming
Strangleroot Geist Not a green aggro cube. Is that archetype good?
Yavimaya Elder I like this guy. He could take the place of a two mana ramp guy
Rancor A classic, but out of place in a ramp-centric green section
Sylvan Library Another classic that actually does very little without a lot of shufflers
Vengevine A lot of work for not much
Troll Ascetic See Strangleroot Geist
Cultivate What gets cut for this? It's fine but there's not much room
Wild Mongrel See Strangleroot Geist
Life from the Loam Maybe I'd add this back if I did a Utility Land Draft. Otherwise it doesn't do much.
Viridian Shaman This is fine, but green already has quite a few Naturalizers
Kodama's Reach See Cultivate
Genesis I could see cutting Wolfir Silverheart for this guy. Thoughts?
Thragtusk Pretty unfun to play against, but another card that could replace Silverheart.
Vorapede See Strangleroot Geist
Uktabi Orangutan See Viridian Shaman
Detention Sphere White/Blue is more tempo based than control in this cube.
Shadowmage Infiltrator This card might be better than Mind Grind. Probably.
Dreadbore Which RB card does this replace. It was the 5th option
Kird Ape No green aggro means Kird Ape just isn't good.
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad What does he replace. Still trying to keep planeswalker count low-ish
Izzet Charm Just got cut for Turn//Burn. Is it better than my options?
Lotleth Troll Similar to ape. No green aggro makes this guy underwhelming
Wild Nacatl Green aggro that requires two splashes? No dice.
Sword of War and Peace White aggro was struggling to win already. This made it worse
Sword of Light and Shadow See Sword of War and Peace
Crucible of Worlds A cool addition if a Utility Land Draft gets added. Otherwise pretty weak.
Mox Diamond A find manafact. What's the suggested cut?
Sundering Titan Never felt that great, but possibly undervalued. What is it better than?
Smokestack Another possible draft-around card. What are people's experience with this?
Icy Manipulator A fun classic card that seems a little low on power level. Am I undervaluing it?
Scroll Rack Another card that is really weak without a lot of shufflers.
Grim Monolith Considering adding this with Wildfire support. Awesome with Ral Zarek.
Sensei's Divining Top See Scroll Rack
Pithing Needle I have Phyrexian Revoker and no one ever drafts it. I don't think this is good enough.
Mana Vault This card fits with Mana Drain and Mind Twist in that the person who drafts it has a huge advantage. Worse still is that it's colorless.
Mishra's Factory Could take the Cloudpost spot
Wasteland Should likely replace Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse
Maze of Ith Could take the Cloudpost spot
Treetop Village No green aggo
City of Brass Could take the Cloudpost spot
Mutavault Could take the Cloudpost spot
Rishadan Port Should likely replace Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse
Volrath's Stronghold Could take the Cloudpost spot
Ancient Tomb Could take the Cloudpost spot
I really appreciate the feedback. If you have suggested cuts for any of these addition, I am always open to making changes as I am (somewhat) new to the world of cube.
First, welcome to the cube forum. The more, the merrier.
I don't know how to say this without sounding like a dick, so I'm just going to say it: I disagree with almost every reason you have for not running the cards in the post above. Some of them--Balance, Land Tax, Meloku, Tinker, Demonic Tutor, Wheel of Fortune, Arc Trail, Regrowth, Sylvan Library--are among the most powerful and most important cards in their colors. Most of them are staples in 360 cubes. I get that you want to support certain archetypes but many of these cards do that or fit easily into any archetype.
Another suggestion: Run lands that require a color (Treetop Village, Volrath's Stronghold) in that color section. Make them compete against those color cards because no one outside that color will draft them. They don't really function the way the rest of the lands do. I don't worry about some colors having more lands than others. It works out fine. Right now, I've got three lands in blue and none in red and it's not an issue.
Again, I don't mean to harsh on you or your cube. I'm just presenting my point of view. I'd cube almost every card in the post above even in a 360.
First, welcome to the cube forum. The more, the merrier.
I don't know how to say this without sounding like a dick, so I'm just going to say it: I disagree with almost every reason you have for not running the cards in the post above. Some of them--Balance, Land Tax, Meloku, Tinker, Demonic Tutor, Wheel of Fortune, Arc Trail, Regrowth, Sylvan Library--are among the most powerful and most important cards in their colors. Most of them are staples in 360 cubes. I get that you want to support certain archetypes but many of these cards do that or fit easily into any archetype.
Another suggestion: Run lands that require a color (Treetop Village, Volrath's Stronghold) in that color section. Make them compete against those color cards because no one outside that color will draft them. They don't really function the way the rest of the lands do. I don't worry about some colors having more lands than others. It works out fine. Right now, I've got three lands in blue and none in red and it's not an issue.
Again, I don't mean to harsh on you or your cube. I'm just presenting my point of view. I'd cube almost every card in the post above even in a 360.
Cheers,
rant
Thanks for the feedback. I understand why some of the cards listed are considered cube staples, even/especially in small 360 lists. I guess I am just trying to figure out where they fit. I think Balance is a great card for cube in that you can build around it and it is a unique and powerful effect. This is true of many of the cards you listed. That said, cards like Wheel of Fortune just seem out of place. I may just not have experience playing it, and maybe it's simply a "Draw 7" for red decks to get the gas they need to end the game. Again, I understand why so many feel these effects belong in cube, and in all likelihood they do, but I am looking for cards that can be cut without damaging the supported archetypes too greatly.
What suggested cuts would you make for cards that don't pull their weight or deserve to be replaced by these iconic staples?
I don't know how to say this without sounding like a dick, so I'm just going to say it: I disagree with almost every reason you have for not running the cards in the post above.
I'm glad you said this. I was reading through those comments just kinda stunned one after another.
Almost every single card on that list of recommendations I wouldn't dare cube without. And pretty much every card on the list of unusual cards is easily cuttable in a cube this size. With the exception of banning cards for being too good, there's no reason not to run 95% of the cards on that list of recommended cards. Especially not at this size.
I'd run Balance in almost any white deck I draft. It's not at it's best in hard aggro but even there it can sometimes be clutch. You can build around it, but it's excellent no matter what. You just need to be able to take advantage of the post-Balance board state.
I use Wheel mostly in aggressive decks to disrupt control and refill on gas. It's also excellent in UR counterburn.
I'd start by moving Boros Reckoner to WR (with that specific casting cost, it's unlikely to ever be run in a deck besides WR) and Lingering Souls to WB (it's not worth it without the flashback). Then, I'd cut Gideon's Lawkeeper, Daring Skyjek, Angel of Serenity, and Glorious Anthem. This allows you to add Balance, Land Tax, Elspeth (not that easy of a 1st pick), Soltari Trooper, Ajani Goldmane, and Flickerwisp. I would also find room for Sanctifiers (but not by cutting Disenchant) and Enlightened Tutor.
In red, I'd cut Goblin Cadets, Tin-Street Hooligan, Magus of the Scroll, Kargan Dragonlord, Ball Lightning, Zo-Zu, Keldon Champion, Zealous Conscripts, Through the Breach, Shrine of Burning Rage, and Devil's Play. My adds would be Wheel of Fortune, Arc Trail, Plated Geopede, Avalanche Riders, Hero of Oxid Ridge, Greater Gargadon, Manic Vandals, Keldon Vandals, Wildfire, Burning of Xinye, and Firebolt. I'd also cut Kiki-Jiki for Siege-Gang but you seem to really like Kiki. I'd squeeze Chandra in there too somehow.
Almost every single card on that list of recommendations I wouldn't dare cube without. And pretty much every card on the list of unusual cards is easily cuttable in a cube this size. With the exception of banning cards for being too good, there's no reason not to run 95% of the cards on that list of recommended cards. Especially not at this size.
I'd run Balance in almost any white deck I draft. It's not at it's best in hard aggro but even there it can sometimes be clutch. You can build around it, but it's excellent no matter what. You just need to be able to take advantage of the post-Balance board state.
I use Wheel mostly in aggressive decks to disrupt control and refill on gas. It's also excellent in UR counterburn.
I'd start by moving Boros Reckoner to WR (with that specific casting cost, it's unlikely to ever be run in a deck besides WR) and Lingering Souls to WB (it's not worth it without the flashback). Then, I'd cut Gideon's Lawkeeper, Daring Skyjek, Angel of Serenity, and Glorious Anthem. This allows you to add Balance, Land Tax, Elspeth (not that easy of a 1st pick), Soltari Trooper, Ajani Goldmane, and Flickerwisp. I would also find room for Sanctifiers (but not by cutting Disenchant) and Enlightened Tutor.
In red, I'd cut Goblin Cadets, Tin-Street Hooligan, Magus of the Scroll, Kargan Dragonlord, Ball Lightning, Zo-Zu, Keldon Champion, Zealous Conscripts, Through the Breach, Shrine of Burning Rage, and Devil's Play. My adds would be Wheel of Fortune, Arc Trail, Plated Geopede, Avalanche Riders, Hero of Oxid Ridge, Greater Gargadon, Manic Vandals, Keldon Vandals, Wildfire, Burning of Xinye, and Firebolt. I'd also cut Kiki-Jiki for Siege-Gang but you seem to really like Kiki. I'd squeeze Chandra in there too somehow.
Cheers,
rant
Alright. Again, lots of good feedback. I appreciate you taking the time to look through specific sections for cuts/additions. I think some of your suggestions are likely right-on, but I have a concern with the comments I am getting in general.
It seems that the cuts being made are the "unique" card choices that distinguish the cube from being different from others. I realize some cards simply deserve to be in all lists due to their power level, iconic nature, etc, but I feel cutting unique choices makes the cube less interesting. That is not to say unique card choices are simply there to make the cube interesting, but rather that I feel they are a better fit with archetypes the cube supports.
Individual card thoughts:
Cutting Gideon's Lawkeeper and Daring Skyjek for Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Balance is acceptable since those cards were fringe to begin with. I think Angel of Serenity provides the game ending advantage that white control decks need, so I am hesitant to cut it despite it being untraditional. I will look to make room for Land Tax and other, though Ajani Goldmane probably missed the cut once Elspeth is back in to try to keep walkers around 1-2 per color.
I am all for trying Wildfire strategies in my cube, but I don't really agree with adding more four-drops since red only really wants 1-2 in my experience. Five-drops can be changed pretty freely. Cutting Shrine of Burning Rage seems ridiculous to me as it is a high pick for any red player. Cutting splashable enablers like Though the Breach is reasonable for more artifact removal or versatile/efficient burn.
Again, thanks for the feedback, and I hope it is clear that I am willing to discuss cards. I realize that certain staples are sacred to many cubers, and I'm not trying to step on any toes. I just don't want to start changing half of a given section simply because "everyone" plays this or that card.
Alright. Again, lots of good feedback. I appreciate you taking the time to look through specific sections for cuts/additions. I think some of your suggestions are likely right-on, but I have a concern with the comments I am getting in general.
I get your concern. I hope you aren't feeling steamrolled. My intention is just to impart my experience to make your cube better. In the end, you are more than entitled to do what you want and what makes your group happy. There's not a lot in cube that is definitely right or wrong.
It seems that the cuts being made are the "unique" card choices that distinguish the cube from being different from others. I realize some cards simply deserve to be in all lists due to their power level, iconic nature, etc, but I feel cutting unique choices makes the cube less interesting. That is not to say unique card choices are simply there to make the cube interesting, but rather that I feel they are a better fit with archetypes the cube supports.
I'm all for trying unique cards and adding cards that make your group happy. However, some cards are just better than others. I think a number of the unique cards you run aren't as good as the cards you are leaving out. And, I think a lot of the cards you are leaving out support archetypes just as well if not better.
Cutting Gideon's Lawkeeper and Daring Skyjek for Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Balance is acceptable since those cards were fringe to begin with. I think Angel of Serenity provides the game ending advantage that white control decks need, so I am hesitant to cut it despite it being untraditional. I will look to make room for Land Tax and other, though Ajani Goldmane probably missed the cut once Elspeth is back in to try to keep walkers around 1-2 per color.
If you aren't willing to cut Angel of Serenity, cut Elesh Norn. You have too many fatties for this size cube. I prefer Norn; others prefer Angel. I think one has to go. I don't like to limit the number of walkers, but it's a totally valid design choice. In that case, for white Elspeth and Gideon Jura clearly come out on top. I really think your aggro decks could use the soltaris, so I'd look for room for them. Even with the double-white cost they are among the best aggro beaters.
I am all for trying Wildfire strategies in my cube, but I don't really agree with adding more four-drops since red only really wants 1-2 in my experience. Five-drops can be changed pretty freely. Cutting Shrine of Burning Rage seems ridiculous to me as it is a high pick for any red player. Cutting splashable enablers like Though the Breach is reasonable for more artifact removal or versatile/efficient burn.
Each red deck needs 1-2 four drops assuming they are all aggro decks. Grixis control and Team America midrange are things and they will use those cards. Also, Hero of Oxid Ridge is pretty amazing for aggro and token decks, and Avalanche Riders is loved by aggro decks, blink decks, and Recurring Nightmare decks. I've gotten more out those two cards than I ever did from Ball Lightning (so hard to cast on curve outside of monored) and Keldon Champion (I still like Champion but it's been outclassed by the recent crop of good red 4-drops). I don't run Shrine at all. I think it has too much chance of not doing anything and I don't like to not apply pressure every turn when I play aggro.
Again, thanks for the feedback, and I hope it is clear that I am willing to discuss cards. I realize that certain staples are sacred to many cubers, and I'm not trying to step on any toes. I just don't want to start changing half of a given section simply because "everyone" plays this or that card.
This absolutely has been a good, respectful discussion. However, I don't think I really have sacred cards. I'd replace anything if something better comes along. It's just in many cases, nothing better has.
I won't suggest adding in cards because "everybody runs them" but I will suggest replacing worse cards with better ones. The number of cubes that play a given card is simply an indicator that many have found card x to be among the best cards for the respective color. That's a good thing. Trust me, cubes are plenty unique even if a good percentage of the cards are the same. Drafting styles, playgroup preferences and deckbuilding decisions will lead to a unique environment for your crew regardless of the cards in the list. If you're looking to provide those players with the best tools available, other cube lists that share similar goals to yours is a great place to look.
Those recommended cards are not the most common cards that you are not running, but the top results of a recommender system like the ones you know from diverse other sites and stores.
With so many uncommon cards, there is going to be a high correlation with the most popular cards, but at least they are prioritized differently.
This is great to know thank you. I apologize if I came across as unappreciative of your work, I was merely expressing a concern. You are right though. With such a high number of unorthodox choices, there is a lot of room for suggestions that many players find powerful. I am going back through my cube to add cards to an "On the Block" section for this thread that lists cards that seem underpowered or are underperforming so that replacements can be suggested.
The suggested replacements for the cards you find cuttable are in eidolon's post above. You can find the most "like-for-like" swaps from his list of suggested cards and it will most likely be a good change for your list. But take your time with it! The cube is all about the experience of drafting cards and slowly bettering the list as you upgrade it. Making small changes and seeing improvements over the drafts - developing the cube - is what it's all about.
Hello all. I've made a good number (36+) changes to the cube since last discussion. I've shifted the focus more to supporting archetypes in a more focused way to increase interest in drafting. Please check it out and let me know what you think. I tried fitting in some staples like Jace, Elspeth, and Balance as well. These cards really are just too sweet not to play.
Hello fellow cube enthusiasts. I have been building and tuning this cube for about eight months now and though it is much younger than other cubes, I feel it has a lot of play. It is my goal to keep the cube at its current 360 card size. It supports a full pod of 8 drafters, though that has yet to happen due to numerous last-minute cancellations by my drafting circle. It is most commonly drafted in a grid format by two players or by groups of 4 or 6. I strive to give each color its own identity in draft rather than simply putting all the best cards from each color into a pile. I feel this creates the most interesting and fun draft format. I have put my focus recently on supporting archetypes that may be more in depth that "two color deck with cards that are that color". If cards seems underpowered (Pawn of Ulamog) it is likely due to the fact that they support a specific archetype. Any and all help is appreciated, with one caveat. If you have a suggested addition to the cube, please suggest a corresponding cut. I know there are many great Magic cards that have failed to make the cut thus far, but I plan to keep the cube at 360, so if you want something in, something else has to go. Thanks for all your help.
-kcon
Cube Size: 360 cards
Breakdown: 48 WUBRG (240) , 4 Multicolor per guild (40), 38 Artifact/Colorless, 42 Lands
Standard or Theme: Standard
Snow Lands: No
Average Number of Players: 2-6
How Often Drafted: About once a week
Card Selection
Proxies: Yes
Powered: No
Portal: Yes
"Un" Cards: No
Banned Cards for Power-Level: Sol Ring
Banned Cards for Time Constraints: No
Banned Cards for "fun" factor: No
Cube Design
Standard or Multiplayer: Standard
Sideboards?: Yes
Color Balance: Yes (with some liberties taken)
Gold Balance: Yes (with some liberties taken)
Hybrid/Split/Kicker as Gold: Some/Yes/No
Color Triggers as Gold: No
Perfectly Balanced CMC: No
Draft My Cube Here
Creatures (CMC = 2)
Creatures (CMC = 3)
Creatures (CMC = 4)
Creatures (CMC = 5+)
Enchantments
Instants
Planeswalkers
Sorceries
Creatures (CMC = 2)
Creatures (CMC = 3)
Creatures (CMC = 4)
Creatures (CMC = 5+)
Enchantments
Instants
Planeswalkers
Sorceries
Other
Creatures (CMC = 2)
Creatures (CMC = 3)
Creatures (CMC = 4)
Creatures (CMC = 5+)
Enchantments
Instants
Planeswalkers
Liliana of the Veil
Sorceries
Creatures (CMC = 2)
Creatures (CMC = 3)
Creatures (CMC = 4)
Creatures (CMC = 5+)
Enchantments
Instants
Planeswalkers
Koth of the Hammer
Sorceries
Other
Shrine of Burning Rage
Creatures (CMC = 2)
Creatures (CMC = 3)
Creatures (CMC = 4)
Creatures (CMC = 5+)
Enchantments
Surivival of the Fittest
Instants
Sprout Swarm
Planeswalkers
Sorceries
U/B
B/R
R/G
G/W
W/B
U/R
B/G
R/W
G/U
Mana Rocks
Equipment
Other
Fetches
Duals
Shocklands
Manlands
Other
[360][Unpowered] kcon's Cube
Draft my cube here!
http://www.cubetutor.com/draft/2094
Note: Decided to switch back to singletons only until I am sure that the black needs redundancy
7/26: Large update (including M14 additions). Too much to post. Will follow more closely in the future.
8/8: In: Ajani CotP, Sublime Archangel, Fiendslayer Paladin, Daring Skyjek, Geralf's Messenger, Butcher Ghoul, Oona's Prowler, Ultimate Price, Wildfire, Burning of Xinye, Thragtusk, Genesis, Dreadbore, Kessig Wolf Run, Grim Monolith, Everflowing Chalice, Epochrasite, Mutavault, Mishra's Factory, Maze of Ith.
Out: Ethersworn Canonist, Flickerwisp, Karmic Guide, Black Sun's Zenith, Duress, Unburial Rites, Dread Return, Zealous Conscripts, Rolling Earthquake, Werebear, Mwonvuli Acid-Moss, Falkenrath Aristocrat, Maelstrom Wanderer, five Innistrad Buddy Lands, Signal Pest.
[360][Unpowered] kcon's Cube
Draft my cube here!
http://www.cubetutor.com/draft/2094
Any short list of cards you're looking to acquire in the near future? I noticed Elspeth, Knight-Errant is missing, for example, and I assume it's just because you don'ty currently have a copy to toss in?
Welcome to the cube forum, and happy cubing!
Quad Cloudpost in a 40-card deck seems pretty savage. Any intention of throwing Glimmerpost in with the same stipulations?
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Hey. Thanks for the feedback.
Both Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Jace, the Mind Sculptor aren't currently in the list because they felt like "auto-picks" that made drafting less interesting. I haven't decided how I feel about the cut since the cards are so iconic, but that's why you won't find them in the list.
I haven't gotten to see Cloudpost in a deck yet, but I feel like playing four colorless sources could be worth the mana trade off, especially if you draft Primeval Titan. Glimmerpost could do similar amounts of work, but I think I'll wait to see the original locus in action before expanding on the idea.
[360][Unpowered] kcon's Cube
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Recommended cards:
Balance Reasonable. Not frequently drafted by my group. Not highly supported, but have not tried it since adding more manafacts
Elspeth, Knight-Errant Skews a players draft. Opening this for your third pack causes you to reconsider your entire draft strategy. Feels bad for the format. May reconsider
Land Tax Often felt underwhelming. Doesn't promote any particular strategy.
Cloudgoat Ranger Decent high end for aggo. Slightly awkward in control. Doesn't really have a home where it is not outclassed
Enlightened Tutor Equipment is already powerful in such a small cube. It is not necessary to make it better
Ajani, Caller of the Pride This point will likely arise again, but I am looking to avoid planeswalker creep, and despite this card's power, Elspeth Knight-Errant would return first
Flickerwisp Would need to investigate adding more synergies with this card before considering
Kor Sanctifiers Could replace Disenchant, but doesn't really have a great home falling at 4 on the curve
Spectral Procession Proved too mana intensive for players to regularly draft
Kor Skyfisher Missed the cut by one. Would consider adding given a reasonble cut
Soltari Monk Double white cards were seldom drafted. I prefer to promote more splashable 2-drops to promote 2-color aggressive decks
Ajani Goldmane See Ajani, Caller of the Pride
Soltari Priest See Soltari Monk
Soltari Trooper This could be better than Daring Skyjek, but feels worse that Kor Skyfisher
Brainstorm This card doesn't really do anything unless you drafted every blue fetch (not an easy task)
Jace, the Mind Sculptor See Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Forbid This could replace Force Spike. Blue is tempo based and doesn't really want a 3 mana counter with upside
Force of Will Pitching blue cards is a much steeper price in this limited environment. Other counters get the nod first
Meloku the Clouded Mirror Underwhelming. Blue doesn't need a bevy of finishers, and Meloku was never as good as I hoped
Treachery Should probably be in the cube. Suggested cut?
Tinker Not really supported. Sundering Titan was cut for being underwhelming so there are only 2-3 "real" targets
Mystical Tutor Without something like Tinker or Storm, this card is usually just getting you something you would have drawn anyway
Ponder Better than Brainstorm, but still requires fetches to shine. Doesn't add to blue's identity
Impulse I don't remember cutting this. Would happily bring it back if provided with a suggested cut
Bribery This card gives blue an additonal edge over decks it already beats, but is still worth considering
Mana Drain This is practically power, and can warp games in unfun ways. If that has not been people's experience, I will try it
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage Avoiding planeswalker creep. JTMS gets the nod before the moonfolk
Dungeon Geists A reasonable addition especially when supporting tempo. What's the suggested cut?
Arcane Denial About 3rd or 4th on the list of counters to add. I like it, but there's only so much room.
Demonic Tutor A black staple, but in a small cube it's hard to justify a card that doesn't do anything on its own.
Hypnotic Specter Another classic. I would add it back in given a suggested cut.
Reanimate The epitome of reanimator, but as that is now a secondary strategy, cutting a few happens
Diregraf Ghoul Black aggro (not confused with attrition) is just not a great strategy. No one drafts it.
Carnophage See Diregraf Ghoul
Vampiric Tutor See Demonic Tutor
Dark Ritual This card doesn't do enough with combo not an option.
Necromancy No need for more reanimation spells.
Oona's Prowler Forgot that I cut this. Would happily add it back given a suggested cut
Vampire Hexmage Underwhelming and hard to cast. A lot of 2-drops just seem better
Nekrataal Had to cut this to support the attrition archetype. Need a suggested cut to put it back
Mind Twist Similar to Mana Drain. Makes for unfun games due to excess power level
Nezumi Graverobber Like Hexmage, this card is underwhelming where other 2-drops are better
Sarcomancy See Diregraf Ghoul
Snuff Out If this is as good as people seem to think, I will cut a different removal spell for it. Which one?
Consuming Vapors This can replace a removal spell too, but again, which one?
Vampire Lacerator See Diregraf Ghoul
Chainer's Edict This is worse than the removal spells I am playing. There's just not enough room
Plated Geopede A fine two drop worth consideration. What's the suggested cut?
Lightning Mauler See Plated Geopede
Avalanche Riders Doesn't do enough for four mana in my opinion. I'd rather have hasty game-enders
Manic Vandal Fine utility. Is this better than Hooligan or Torch Fiend?
Arc Trail A fine spell, but what do I cut?
Squee, Goblin Nabob I want to add this. I will find room.
Siege-Gang Commander Red doesn’t really want 5-drops. Kiki-Jiki made the cut because it seems like more fun
Greater Gargadon Supports Balance and Wildfire. I'll consider this if someone thinks those are fun enough
Spikeshot Elder I think this is just worse than the one-drops I have now. Am I wrong?
Hellrider Barely missed the cut in favor of "kill you now" hasters like
Blistering Firecat
Hero of Oxid Ridge See Hellrider
Chandra Nalaar Had this for a while, but struggled to find a deck that actually wanted it.
Wheel of Fortune A cool combo enabler for a cube that supports that archetype.
Firebolt What burn spell that is currently end gets cut for this?
Wildfire Would consider adding this and Burning of Xinye if people think that deck is fun
Arc Lightning See Arc Trail
Keldon Vandals See Manic Vandal
Mogg Fanatic See Spikeshot Elder
Regrowth Combo enabler. Otherwise it seems underwhelming
Strangleroot Geist Not a green aggro cube. Is that archetype good?
Yavimaya Elder I like this guy. He could take the place of a two mana ramp guy
Rancor A classic, but out of place in a ramp-centric green section
Sylvan Library Another classic that actually does very little without a lot of shufflers
Vengevine A lot of work for not much
Troll Ascetic See Strangleroot Geist
Cultivate What gets cut for this? It's fine but there's not much room
Wild Mongrel See Strangleroot Geist
Life from the Loam Maybe I'd add this back if I did a Utility Land Draft. Otherwise it doesn't do much.
Viridian Shaman This is fine, but green already has quite a few Naturalizers
Kodama's Reach See Cultivate
Genesis I could see cutting Wolfir Silverheart for this guy. Thoughts?
Thragtusk Pretty unfun to play against, but another card that could replace Silverheart.
Vorapede See Strangleroot Geist
Uktabi Orangutan See Viridian Shaman
Detention Sphere White/Blue is more tempo based than control in this cube.
Shadowmage Infiltrator This card might be better than Mind Grind. Probably.
Dreadbore Which RB card does this replace. It was the 5th option
Kird Ape No green aggro means Kird Ape just isn't good.
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad What does he replace. Still trying to keep planeswalker count low-ish
Izzet Charm Just got cut for Turn//Burn. Is it better than my options?
Lotleth Troll Similar to ape. No green aggro makes this guy underwhelming
Wild Nacatl Green aggro that requires two splashes? No dice.
Sword of War and Peace White aggro was struggling to win already. This made it worse
Sword of Light and Shadow See Sword of War and Peace
Crucible of Worlds A cool addition if a Utility Land Draft gets added. Otherwise pretty weak.
Mox Diamond A find manafact. What's the suggested cut?
Sundering Titan Never felt that great, but possibly undervalued. What is it better than?
Smokestack Another possible draft-around card. What are people's experience with this?
Icy Manipulator A fun classic card that seems a little low on power level. Am I undervaluing it?
Scroll Rack Another card that is really weak without a lot of shufflers.
Grim Monolith Considering adding this with Wildfire support. Awesome with Ral Zarek.
Sensei's Divining Top See Scroll Rack
Pithing Needle I have Phyrexian Revoker and no one ever drafts it. I don't think this is good enough.
Mana Vault This card fits with Mana Drain and Mind Twist in that the person who drafts it has a huge advantage. Worse still is that it's colorless.
Mishra's Factory Could take the Cloudpost spot
Wasteland Should likely replace Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse
Maze of Ith Could take the Cloudpost spot
Treetop Village No green aggo
City of Brass Could take the Cloudpost spot
Mutavault Could take the Cloudpost spot
Rishadan Port Should likely replace Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse
Volrath's Stronghold Could take the Cloudpost spot
Ancient Tomb Could take the Cloudpost spot
[360][Unpowered] kcon's Cube
Draft my cube here!
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First, welcome to the cube forum. The more, the merrier.
I don't know how to say this without sounding like a dick, so I'm just going to say it: I disagree with almost every reason you have for not running the cards in the post above. Some of them--Balance, Land Tax, Meloku, Tinker, Demonic Tutor, Wheel of Fortune, Arc Trail, Regrowth, Sylvan Library--are among the most powerful and most important cards in their colors. Most of them are staples in 360 cubes. I get that you want to support certain archetypes but many of these cards do that or fit easily into any archetype.
Another suggestion: Run lands that require a color (Treetop Village, Volrath's Stronghold) in that color section. Make them compete against those color cards because no one outside that color will draft them. They don't really function the way the rest of the lands do. I don't worry about some colors having more lands than others. It works out fine. Right now, I've got three lands in blue and none in red and it's not an issue.
Again, I don't mean to harsh on you or your cube. I'm just presenting my point of view. I'd cube almost every card in the post above even in a 360.
Cheers,
rant
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Thanks for the feedback. I understand why some of the cards listed are considered cube staples, even/especially in small 360 lists. I guess I am just trying to figure out where they fit. I think Balance is a great card for cube in that you can build around it and it is a unique and powerful effect. This is true of many of the cards you listed. That said, cards like Wheel of Fortune just seem out of place. I may just not have experience playing it, and maybe it's simply a "Draw 7" for red decks to get the gas they need to end the game. Again, I understand why so many feel these effects belong in cube, and in all likelihood they do, but I am looking for cards that can be cut without damaging the supported archetypes too greatly.
What suggested cuts would you make for cards that don't pull their weight or deserve to be replaced by these iconic staples?
[360][Unpowered] kcon's Cube
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I'm glad you said this. I was reading through those comments just kinda stunned one after another.
Almost every single card on that list of recommendations I wouldn't dare cube without. And pretty much every card on the list of unusual cards is easily cuttable in a cube this size. With the exception of banning cards for being too good, there's no reason not to run 95% of the cards on that list of recommended cards. Especially not at this size.
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I use Wheel mostly in aggressive decks to disrupt control and refill on gas. It's also excellent in UR counterburn.
I'd start by moving Boros Reckoner to WR (with that specific casting cost, it's unlikely to ever be run in a deck besides WR) and Lingering Souls to WB (it's not worth it without the flashback). Then, I'd cut Gideon's Lawkeeper, Daring Skyjek, Angel of Serenity, and Glorious Anthem. This allows you to add Balance, Land Tax, Elspeth (not that easy of a 1st pick), Soltari Trooper, Ajani Goldmane, and Flickerwisp. I would also find room for Sanctifiers (but not by cutting Disenchant) and Enlightened Tutor.
In red, I'd cut Goblin Cadets, Tin-Street Hooligan, Magus of the Scroll, Kargan Dragonlord, Ball Lightning, Zo-Zu, Keldon Champion, Zealous Conscripts, Through the Breach, Shrine of Burning Rage, and Devil's Play. My adds would be Wheel of Fortune, Arc Trail, Plated Geopede, Avalanche Riders, Hero of Oxid Ridge, Greater Gargadon, Manic Vandals, Keldon Vandals, Wildfire, Burning of Xinye, and Firebolt. I'd also cut Kiki-Jiki for Siege-Gang but you seem to really like Kiki. I'd squeeze Chandra in there too somehow.
Cheers,
rant
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Alright. Again, lots of good feedback. I appreciate you taking the time to look through specific sections for cuts/additions. I think some of your suggestions are likely right-on, but I have a concern with the comments I am getting in general.
It seems that the cuts being made are the "unique" card choices that distinguish the cube from being different from others. I realize some cards simply deserve to be in all lists due to their power level, iconic nature, etc, but I feel cutting unique choices makes the cube less interesting. That is not to say unique card choices are simply there to make the cube interesting, but rather that I feel they are a better fit with archetypes the cube supports.
Individual card thoughts:
Cutting Gideon's Lawkeeper and Daring Skyjek for Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Balance is acceptable since those cards were fringe to begin with. I think Angel of Serenity provides the game ending advantage that white control decks need, so I am hesitant to cut it despite it being untraditional. I will look to make room for Land Tax and other, though Ajani Goldmane probably missed the cut once Elspeth is back in to try to keep walkers around 1-2 per color.
I am all for trying Wildfire strategies in my cube, but I don't really agree with adding more four-drops since red only really wants 1-2 in my experience. Five-drops can be changed pretty freely. Cutting Shrine of Burning Rage seems ridiculous to me as it is a high pick for any red player. Cutting splashable enablers like Though the Breach is reasonable for more artifact removal or versatile/efficient burn.
Again, thanks for the feedback, and I hope it is clear that I am willing to discuss cards. I realize that certain staples are sacred to many cubers, and I'm not trying to step on any toes. I just don't want to start changing half of a given section simply because "everyone" plays this or that card.
Regards,
kcon
[360][Unpowered] kcon's Cube
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I get your concern. I hope you aren't feeling steamrolled. My intention is just to impart my experience to make your cube better. In the end, you are more than entitled to do what you want and what makes your group happy. There's not a lot in cube that is definitely right or wrong.
I'm all for trying unique cards and adding cards that make your group happy. However, some cards are just better than others. I think a number of the unique cards you run aren't as good as the cards you are leaving out. And, I think a lot of the cards you are leaving out support archetypes just as well if not better.
If you aren't willing to cut Angel of Serenity, cut Elesh Norn. You have too many fatties for this size cube. I prefer Norn; others prefer Angel. I think one has to go. I don't like to limit the number of walkers, but it's a totally valid design choice. In that case, for white Elspeth and Gideon Jura clearly come out on top. I really think your aggro decks could use the soltaris, so I'd look for room for them. Even with the double-white cost they are among the best aggro beaters.
Each red deck needs 1-2 four drops assuming they are all aggro decks. Grixis control and Team America midrange are things and they will use those cards. Also, Hero of Oxid Ridge is pretty amazing for aggro and token decks, and Avalanche Riders is loved by aggro decks, blink decks, and Recurring Nightmare decks. I've gotten more out those two cards than I ever did from Ball Lightning (so hard to cast on curve outside of monored) and Keldon Champion (I still like Champion but it's been outclassed by the recent crop of good red 4-drops). I don't run Shrine at all. I think it has too much chance of not doing anything and I don't like to not apply pressure every turn when I play aggro.
This absolutely has been a good, respectful discussion. However, I don't think I really have sacred cards. I'd replace anything if something better comes along. It's just in many cases, nothing better has.
Cheers,
rant
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This is great to know thank you. I apologize if I came across as unappreciative of your work, I was merely expressing a concern. You are right though. With such a high number of unorthodox choices, there is a lot of room for suggestions that many players find powerful. I am going back through my cube to add cards to an "On the Block" section for this thread that lists cards that seem underpowered or are underperforming so that replacements can be suggested.
[360][Unpowered] kcon's Cube
Draft my cube here!
http://www.cubetutor.com/draft/2094
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
[360][Unpowered] kcon's Cube
Draft my cube here!
http://www.cubetutor.com/draft/2094
In: Ajani CotP, Sublime Archangel, Fiendslayer Paladin, Daring Skyjek, Geralf's Messenger, Butcher Ghoul, Oona's Prowler, Ultimate Price, Wildfire, Burning of Xinye, Thragtusk, Genesis, Dreadbore, Kessig Wolf Run, Grim Monolith, Everflowing Chalice, Epochrasite, Mutavault, Mishra's Factory, Maze of Ith, Knight of the Reliquary, Azorius Charm
Out: Ethersworn Canonist, Flickerwisp, Karmic Guide, Black Sun's Zenith, Duress, Unburial Rites, Dread Return, Zealous Conscripts, Rolling Earthquake, Werebear, Mwonvuli Acid-Moss, Falkenrath Aristocrat, Maelstrom Wanderer, five Innistrad Buddy Lands, Signal Pest, Mirari's Wake, Sphinx's Revelation
[360][Unpowered] kcon's Cube
Draft my cube here!
http://www.cubetutor.com/draft/2094