You should really consider Possibility Storm as Ennemy #1 too. I've played against different builds of GAA4 with my Norin's deck and this enchantment completely destroys control. You want to play that counterspell? Play Fact or Fiction instead. You want to Path to Exile my creature? Flip into a counterspell that does nothing. Meanwhile, I will pay 1 for Warp World or my Eldrazis, and for some other good stuff AKA Warstorm Surge.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
You should really consider Possibility Storm as Ennemy #1 too. I've played against different builds of GAA4 with my Norin's deck and this enchantment completely destroys control. You want to play that counterspell? Play Fact or Fiction instead. You want to Path to Exile my creature? Flip into a counterspell that does nothing. Meanwhile, I will pay 1 for Warp World or my Eldrazis, and for some other good stuff AKA Warstorm Surge.
Thank you!
I can definitely see Possibility Storm as being a serious problem. It can be circumvented by Senator's Divining Top, though only to a certain extent. And, if GAA4 wanted to play Counterspell, I don't think he'd be hurting too much if another instant popped up instead. What Possibility Storm makes difficult is playing specific spells from the hand... but if you just accept that and play around it, GAA4 can at least remove it.
You're right, though, that GAA4 probably shouldn't let it hit the board in the first place.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
It depends on the build of the deck that Grip of Chaos is in, but it's not guaranteed to mess with control decks. Countermagic is still rather effective, since you're responding to one spell at a time (unless Cascade is involved). Targeted removal is trickier, but that's why there are global (sweep/wrath) effects. I see Possibly Storm as more difficult to deal with than Grip of Chaos, but that's just me.
Red chaos effects, in general, can be difficult to handle unless the deck is built specifically to cope with such effects. Thus, Warp World and Scrambleverse are issues, too. No one in my playgroup uses effects like these, even though they are probably some of the most interesting effects in the format. (Disclaimer: my Playgroup tends to play either very competitive generals, like Zur and Azami, or other generals but with cpetitively built decks, Radha and Skullbriar. Very few chaos effects are used.)
Specifically against this GAA4 deck, I can really see Possibility Storm and Grip of Chaos as being a little slow. PS costs 5 and GoC is 6. If GAA4 is on-time, i.e., he comes out T4, the Red enchantments would cost 6 and 7, respectively. If any of the other taxers are out (and many of them can be on the field by the time GAA4 hits), it just gets worse. This limits spell-power (how many spells you can play a turn or round), and at that point, I'd imagine you'd have other things you'd rather play... like Chaos Warp.
In any case, chaos effects like these can be troublesome for this deck if they stick. You'd either have to play around them or directly exploit them to overcome theit effects. Doing so would require a good deal of creativity and a good attitude, but it can be done.
I've been trying to think of ways to improve the thread or new sections to add that people might have questions about. But, being only one person with one point-of-view, I would like the input of anyone and everyone about what other sections to add. (For example, I was thinking of a Match-up section...)
Hey so looking at your deck and mine. (I have a GAA4 EDH deck as well)
There are a few cards Id like to suggest incase you had never seen them (doubt that though) Mana Web (You can see how this might be useful, as mana tapped at certain phases will empty out and they may not be left with much for either summoning or attacking! Also combos beautifully with both magus of the tabernacle and Pendrell Mists. Steal enchantment and Copy enchantment both have done some amazing things for me!!
P.S, this is my GAA4 deck , ive had for about a year or so, constantly tweaking, there are a few obvious cards I need as well I should take out however Im pretty poor and thus cant put them in. (yet)
Anyways, if I could get some input from you that would be great haha,
the way youve written this out is great!
There are more cards you may like in my deck so have a good look haha.
Good job with this by the way http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/grand-arbiter-28-10-12-1/
As a side note from something I noticed, a good way to deal with a card such as Possibility storm is Aura of Silence
Its extremely helpful in getting rid of those pesky cards, and also does what Arbiter does best. Taxes nicely !
I just built a Grand Arbiter deck and I find that Sakashima the Impostor is absolutely amazing so far in my early testing.
You can use him to copy legendary creatures without triggering the legendary rule so you can copy the Arbiter. Arbiter + Sakashima + Sphere of Resistance = Your opponents spells cost 3 more while your spells still cost 1 less(or even less for multicolor).
Also late game you can bounce him to copy something like an Iona so that you can further lock down opponents by naming two colors. Of course you don't run Iona but you might have some other fun late game options to copy.
Hey so looking at your deck and mine. (I have a GAA4 EDH deck as well)
There are a few cards Id like to suggest incase you had never seen them (doubt that though) Mana Web (You can see how this might be useful, as mana tapped at certain phases will empty out and they may not be left with much for either summoning or attacking! Also combos beautifully with both magus of the tabernacle and Pendrell Mists. Steal enchantment and Copy enchantment both have done some amazing things for me!!
P.S, this is my GAA4 deck , ive had for about a year or so, constantly tweaking, there are a few obvious cards I need as well I should take out however Im pretty poor and thus cant put them in. (yet)
Anyways, if I could get some input from you that would be great haha,
the way youve written this out is great!
There are more cards you may like in my deck so have a good look haha.
Good job with this by the way http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/grand-arbiter-28-10-12-1/
As a side note from something I noticed, a good way to deal with a card such as Possibility storm is Aura of Silence
Its extremely helpful in getting rid of those pesky cards, and also does what Arbiter does best. Taxes nicely !
Good call on the Aura of Silence to get rid of Possiblity Storm. I usually just use it to tax, so I forget that it kills annoying stuff.
As far as Mana Web is concerned, I've seen it and decided that it doesn't work in my meta, which means it won't work against any competitive or highly tuned deck. Granted, my play-group uses a lot of Blue and Green, and the players tend to be very, er, capable of getting around things like Mana Web. I just figured it wasn't worth it, since there tends to be easier ways of making it hard for opponents to cast spells.
I've used Steal Enchantment and Copy Enchantment before to varying effects. Steal was a bit underwhelming, even in groups that run a bunch of enchantments. The funnest thing I ever did with Copy was combo it with Enchanted Evening to kill someone's general (back before the new Legendary Rule). But I had mostly used it to create an all-shrouded board (Enchanted Evening + Greater Auramancy + Copy Enchantment), which was too cumbersome, so I took it out in favour of more s/taxxy locks.
I'll take a look at your deck and give you some input, though I'm not sure how much it will help, since I can be a bit persnickety about how GAA4 should be run. But, I figure if you like the deck, then you should just do it how you want.
I just built a Grand Arbiter deck and I find that Sakashima the Impostor is absolutely amazing so far in my early testing.
You can use him to copy legendary creatures without triggering the legendary rule so you can copy the Arbiter. Arbiter + Sakashima + Sphere of Resistance = Your opponents spells cost 3 more while your spells still cost 1 less(or even less for multicolor).
Also late game you can bounce him to copy something like an Iona so that you can further lock down opponents by naming two colors. Of course you don't run Iona but you might have some other fun late game options to copy.
I think Sakashima, the Impostor is great if you are running a lot of major creatures, like Iona. This deck keeps creatures to a minimum, which I like. It's a little more old-school control, which you kinda have to do if you're looking to make an entire table your *****.
On the other hand, if you wanted to do copy-shenanigans, there are lots of options. It's just not what this GAA4 deck does, and if I tried to change the strategy too much, the deck's power could really be diluted. I've found that the strongest decks do one thing particularly well and can do a range of other things to stabilize their strength.
Congrats on the primer status! What cards from Theros peak interest for you?
Thank you!
I was actually going to do a Theros Review shortly, but I guess now's as good a time as any. Please bear with me, this will get long. (Bold ones are one's I'm interested in.)
White
Battlewise Valor: not enough attacking happens in the deck to make this worthwhile.
Cavalry Pegasus: I'm guessing this is for Limited? Not right for the deck.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion: Man, when I heard Elspeth was coming back in Theros, I was so happy. But this card is so underwhelming for me in general; just very uninspired. Not bad for token decks, but I wish R&D would get a little more creative with the established 'walkers, rather than keep making slightly different but mostly similar versions of them.
Ephara's Warden: Costs too much for a creature; the ability requires haste (which it won't get in this deck) and it's a rather restricted ability. Probably meant for Limited.
Evangel of Heliod: Good for token decks.
(I'm sensing a theme, WotC...)
Fabled Hero: I could see running 3- or 4-of in a blue-white-weenie Standard with Gods Willing. Not a terrible card, but not right for this.
Gift of Immortality: Too highly dependent on creatures. Plus, there aren't a lot of creatures in this deck that I feel really need to stay on the 'field.
Glare of Heresy: I wish it weren't so restricted. But then, they'd actually be giving White a good card, and we can't have that, now can we? XP
Gods Willing: Scry is nice, but I'd rather just counter a spell or something than try to protect a creature for a turn.
Heliod, God of the Sun: I can see a pretty sweet mono-White token deck coming out of this guy. He's just not right for GAA4.
Hopeful Eidolon: I want enchantments that lock down opponents more than one's that buff my creatures, which are susceptible to bouncing... which causes problems if this guy is Bestowed. (Yeah, he'll pop off and become a creature, but he's a meh creature in EDH.)
Hundred-Handed One: Ghostly Prison and Propaganda really do just solve all the attacking problems...
Lagonna-Band Elder: Good for Limited, I'd imagine. Or an interesting pauper, ETB Esper build...
Last Breath: White and Blue each have better removal options.
Leonin Snarecaster: Underwhelming in EDH; not particularly useful in this deck.
Spear of Heliod: Again, quite exciting for my Obzedat deck. Not right for this one. The +1/+1 is nice, but creatures, again, aren't a big thing of this deck.
Dissolve: Perhaps one of the better spells in the set. I prefer Dissipate, though, since GY tricks are very much a thing. Scry on a counterspell is solid, though.
Master of Waves: I'm sure it's a fine card, but I don't see how it would contribute to prison-building.
Meletis Charlatan: I'd consider it for a Melek deck, not even Niv-Mizzet 1.0. It could be fun in the Melek deck, though, because copying spells is pretty damn hilarious.
Mnemonic Wall: No thanks, I have better walls in my prison
Prognostic Sphinx: Card advantage is too precious in this deck to toss cards all willy-nilly. Talrand would like this Sphinx with how much CA it's running, though.
Sea God's Revenge: Cyclonic Rift is just soooooo much better! And it costs the same with GAA4 out.
Shipbreaker Kraken: Now that I think about it, Lorthos-tribal would have a lot of fun with this set.
Stymied Hopes: I like my counterspells to be harder and meaner.
Swan Song: Too conditional for EDH. Great for the set, though.
Thassa, God of the Sea: I really like the Scry 1 at each upkeep. Like, a lot... Plus, it's an enchantment. That costs 3 (2 with GAA4 out). That turns into an indestructible beater (and if Greater Auramancy is out, it'll have Shroud, too). This is a very exciting card, but I'm hesitant, since it lacks oomph that a good prison likes.
Thassa's Bounty: Blue has better draw, and I don't care much for mill in EDH. It can be dangerous.
Daxos of Meletis: Doesn't work in EDH. "Spend[ing] mana as though it were mana of any colour" still comes out colourless, so you wouldn't be able to produce the right colours of mana to cast the spell anyways.
Medomai the Ageless: Very interesting. It would cast 4 with GAA4 out, so it could feasibly come out very early. Problem is haste. Right now, Lightning Greaves is the only haste enabler, and if that's too busy giving my general shroud, I don't think I'm going to equip it to Medomai. (My meta will kill GAA4 as soon as he's unshrouded, and after casting Medomai for 4, I'd need another 1-2 [Blue] mana open to protect my next play. In other words, casting Medomai with counter-backup would still require about 6 mana....) Getting extra turns out of him would actually be pretty tricky. Anyways, he seems like a huge target that would just eat up removal.. Not bad in itself if it draws removal/counters away from other things, but at the same time, Temporal Mastery is roughly the same cost (6 cast from hand with general out; 1 Miracle'd with general out) for an extra turn and is harder to interact with. Granted, if enough of the prison is set up, it would be hard for opponents to cast any removal on Medomai... I'm very much on the fence about this guy. I want to (ab)use him, but he's just so hard to abuse. What do you all think?
Mmmm, I love GAA4 (said by only me in my meta), but even so....
Your build feels incredibly land light to be relying on an inevitable endgame. Stumbling on land drops seems like the easiest way to lose against.....just about anything, really, when everyone is trying to do broken stuff and you're hoping to prison them out before they do so. I should add that my group does not enforce the partial paris rule, opting instead to just use the MTG tournament rules for mulligans.
Secondly, your build appears (to me) to be built to survive in a very aggro-heavy meta; how would you go about altering it for a meta which is almost 100% good stuff decks (i.e., mine)? No one (besides me) plays instant win combo or non-voltron aggro, favoring instead such gems as non-combo Maelstrom Wanderer, or Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
I'm curious as to what you mean by "inevitable endgame"... Just that it expects to win, or at least strives for that? Or simply that the deck expects to lock everyone out as the endgame (which, I admit, doesn't always happen)?
In any case, in the year and a half I've been playing the tuned version of this deck, "stumbling into land drops" has never been a thing. There's enough card advantage, including Sensei's Divining Top and Land Tax, for example, that I've never really had a problem getting land if I needed it.
Also, though I see why you'd mention mulligan rules, I've played the deck numerous times with partial paris and tournament rules. It is quite capable of getting land and winning in both mulligan rule sets.
"Prison[ing] [opponents] out" is simply one of the strategies, I guess. The deck can become very dependent on opponents, and thus more reactive, if you've got a hand full of counters/removal. The prison is ideal in the early game, but if the circumstances warrant it, waiting to build the prison might be the best option. However, as the Judge (aka, GAA4), it's the job of this deck to police the board and make sure it can set itself up for eventual victory, including -- but not limited to -- removing permanents, countering spells, wiping the board, and drawing cards.
The deck can handle all archetypes. My main meta has 1 dedicated aggro player (Radha/Skullbriar), 1 aggro-control player (Doran), and 2 dedicated combo players (Azami and Riku, though the Riku player also uses Zur and Zedruu, so it can handle dedicated control, as well). Granted, there is a lot of permanent removal thanks to White, there's also plenty of spell removal due to Blue. Because of the high ratio of Instants in the deck (21, I believe), most of this removal is happening at instant-speed, so the White permanent-removal can actually act as combo-disruption. For example, if someone is trying to Kiki-combo, a PtE/StP/Cyclonic is enough to stop that nonsense before the combo goes off.
The inclusion of such deterrent cards as Ghostly Prison and Propaganda (among others) is mostly political; if they cannot attack you, they're attacking other players. And in my experience, which is likely differs from yours, goodstuff.dec tends to play big creatures and swing with them.
And on to goodstuff.dec. I've played tournaments that ran the gamut in terms of deck builds. Some were clearly net-decks (the player didn't know what he was doing with cards that were clearly too powerful for his skill-level), some were theme decks (which lost... all the time). The majority were goodstuff decks. More than anything, goodstuff decks are just frustrating because the players don't seem to put a lot of time and effort into building their decks. (They might, of course; it just doesn't look that way.) This is especially apparent since GAA4 very much requires a lot of thought to play correctly. In any case, I haven't ever felt the need to change the deck to handle goodstuff.decs. It's been just fine as it is against such decks, in my dealings with them.
The key to handling goodstuff is removing/countering the right stuff, by which I mean the stuff that will pose the greatest threat to the survival of GAA4 (aka, you). Vorinclex and Eldrazi titans usually top the goodstuff list in terms of "I should get rid of that... now!" Extensions of these cards, such as searches (Natural Order, Green Sun's Zenith, Birthing Pod) are other things to consider countering.
Without further info on the decks you're facing, I don't think I can be of much help... However, with cascade running around, you might consider Mindbreak Trap and Time Stop. They both exile cards on the stack, which is incredibly handy.
And with Maelstrom Wanderer, don't forget to make them pay for the cascaded spells. Yeah, they don't have to pay for those spells' mana costs, but they still have to pay their taxes. They always have to pay their taxes...
EDIT: Also given that goodstuff.decs tend to just throw up a bunch of, well, goodstuff, you might want to consider Humility to just stop it all. This is a real double-edged sword, though, since all the creatures in this GAA4 deck have abilities that are meant to advance the game plan in some way. Shutting those abilities off makes all the creatures useless, which you have to be really careful of... especially if your opponents simply have more creatures.
By inevitable endgame, I just mean that you have inevitability via stealing or destroying everyone else's permanents, with your survival enabled by your suite of counters, removal, and prison cards. Which is why it seems important to me to hit your land drops every turn - if you don't (i.e, if you stumble), you might not be able to cast all of the spells you need to stay alive.
On Ghostly Prison/Propaganda.....I don't think they're going to stop my meta from attacking me unless they literally can't pay it, because I know the people I play with will happily spend their turn paying the toll if it means I die faster. Probably because my other decks include Azami, Arcum, and combo Saffi. Politicking, as I think you're imagining it, doesn't usually happen until after I'm dead.
Maelstrom Wanderer shouldn't be too hard to deal with as long as he doesn't get too many free cascades, and doesn't find a way to cast his general every turn - usually Erratic Portal or Crystal Shard. (Food Chain is usually game over).
Hopefully I get some games and some actual data soon.
Question about this deck. Its mainly used for multiplayer correct? How does it stack up to tuned 1v1 GAA4 decks? Thanks in advance
My decks are always built with both multiplayer and 1v1 in mind because my playgroup does both, and I don't like switching cards in and out.
Indeed, the fewer players involved, the more potent this deck gets. Reason being, it's easier to focus the removal and counters. Rather than saving them up in your hand as the round passes from one player to the next, you only need to worry about one person.
I haven't looked too closely as 1v1 GAA4 lists, but I will say that in the many, many 1v1 games I've played over the years, I can only recall losing once, and that was to my friend's brutal Zur.
Hey man, I really like this deck, even though control is not my style this one looks powerful without being overly obnoxious. I'm thinking of giving in and recently picked up a GA4 for myself. A couple of random questions for you:
5. I really like your build, but I have a control (non-prison) Lady Sun deck that wins with powerful creatures protected by counterspells and card advantage already. I'm considering trying to build this as a near creatureless build with a ton of wraths as something different. The only creatures would be Aura thief, academy rectors, sun titan, snapcaster mage and both gods. There would be 10-15 wrath effects (yes u/w really has that many!) along with more shutdown enchantments like sphere of safety, humility, etc. I'd also have to play GA4 very carefully to prevent him dying all the time and I fully expect I'd have to play this deck in archenemy mode a lot of the time Do you think this is doable?
My apologies! I usually try to respond quicker to inquiries about my beloved GAA4 deck in a timely manner, but school and then my only vacation for a while sort of ate up all my time.
Hey man, I really like this deck, even though control is not my style this one looks powerful without being overly obnoxious. I'm thinking of giving in and recently picked up a GA4 for myself. A couple of random questions for you:
I don't dislike it, exactly, but I don't really like it either. It's fine if lifedrain is a problem in your Meta, but otherwise it's too specifically late-game. One of the virtues of this GAA4 deck is the versatility of it's cards, especially it's spells. Having a card that performs two functions, one of which might not be necessary (gain life) and the other which other cards in the deck already do except cheaper (draw cards) just isn't too appealing to me.
2. Any chance you'd consider replacing the solemn with burnished hart? You can get the hart back with sun titan.
There's a chance, but I don't like that you have to pay to activate it... Solemn just does his thing so well on his own... and I find it rare that I don't use that 3 mana for something else during someone's turn (i.e., I usually counter/remove stuff or draw cards). If I need repeated land access, I'll grab Land Tax. Plus, Tax is easier to get out of the GY in case someone feels the need to kill it (Sun Titan and Replenish).
3. How about thawing glaciers? Seems like for a deck with low land it could be a crummier land tax / land filterer.
I mean, it's abysmally slow. It and the lands it fetches CIPT, necessitating Amulet of Vigor. If you can find a slot for the Amulet, then this might not be a bad choice. It's just far from.optimal.
Trust, this deck doesn't have any problems handling aggro decks or token swarms. With all the controlly sort of enchantments and spells floating around, I'm not sure chump blockers are all that worth it.
5. I really like your build, but I have a control (non-prison) Lady Sun deck that wins with powerful creatures protected by counterspells and card advantage already. I'm considering trying to build this as a near creatureless build with a ton of wraths as something different. The only creatures would be Aura thief, academy rectors, sun titan, snapcaster mage and both gods. There would be 10-15 wrath effects (yes u/w really has that many!) along with more shutdown enchantments like sphere of safety, humility, etc. I'd also have to play GA4 very carefully to prevent him dying all the time and I fully expect I'd have to play this deck in archenemy mode a lot of the time Do you think this is doable?
DEFINITELY! I have rather few creatures in my build as well. That's because it focuses on classic (Legacy-esque) control, which depends heavily on spells rather than on creatures.
The as-many-wraths-as-possible route will definitely require a Blue Leyline, though, because wrathing on other people's turns (just before yours) always rocks.
From Comm '13, there wasn't a lot to offer to control. Unexpectedly Absent, however, is an intriguing card. I thought about putting it in when it was first spoiled but then I thought, "Well, what does it synergize with? Shuffle effects. Not bad against rampy decks or tutor-heavy builds (which are common for me to deal with). But my opponents usually have their generals protected by the time you can do anything to them. Well, I'll give it a try. Now what to take out...?" And that was the end of it. I couldn't for the life of me think of what Unexpectedly Absent could replace.
White removal in this deck is pretty clutch. I wouldn't take out any of it to add in UA. So instead, Blue removal would need to come out. But the deck is at such a good balance of counters, removal, tutors, and actual cards to play, that I'm a little lost as to how the deck can be improved by UA. What can come out and be made better by the replacement of UA? If you can think of something, please let me know!
As for Frozen Aether and Kismet, they're too redundant, since their effects can't stack. Unlike taxing, which has taxes that get bigger the more of them you heap on, Frozen Aether/ Kismet produce the same effect, no matter how many of them are on the board. So, if you already have one out, the other is a dead draw. Since Blind Obedience does almost the exact same thing (minus the land-tapping) for half the cost, Frozen Aether/ Kismet just aren't worth it.
Hello everybody, this is my first post in the forum. I have been checking out decklists and posts for a year but finally today I decided to make an account and start posting.
Welcome! I'm glad you've decided to participate in our community!
So... I have some questions concerning your deck:
1) Why Wasteland is not in the list? I cannot find a reason not to play it except from the colorless mana, but you already play Strip Mine.
I should start by saying that this deck is built in paper. I had to perfect it and optimize it over the course of about 2 years, since I'm just a student and saving up money from the odd jobs I do takes time. The biggest purchase I've made for the deck was Mana Drain, which I got for $125 at the time. I've been satisfied with that.
Basically, Wasteland didn't make it in because Strip Mine is a far cheaper version of it. I already run a lot of utility lands, which produce colourless (or no, in the case of Maze of Ith) mana. The colour balance is critical, and I'm very aware of that because of how few lands I run.
If budget isn't an issue, I guess Wasteland is great if you have it, but I wouldn't run both Wasteland and Strip Mine. With how much taxing and Orb effects (Winter Orb and Sphere of Resistance) there are, the deck already restricts opponents' access to mana. The Strip Mine is meant to kill lands that are giving opponents advantage that resists the control you're trying to enforce. Sun Titan retrieves the Strip Mine, too, so reusing it is very much a possibility.
2) Is Yosei, the Morning Star so good in the deck? I can see some occasions in which he may be useful, but isn't there any better creature to replace him?
Every time I've dropped him (and killed him... Thanks High Market!), he's either stopped someone from comboing, thus buying me time for an answer, or he's killed someone's turn, thus effectively buying me and extra turn.
I mean, as far as establishing or maintaining control of the board state, he's pretty up there on the list. He does cost 6, 5 with GAA4 out, which might make him difficult to cast if you're holding counters/removal, but he's fine fodder for discarding if you have to or eating other counters/removal.
I haven't been impressed with the other "control" creatures that have been coming out lately. Thessa, God of the Sea might be a good replacement if you're just not happy with Yosei. However, this deck rarely swings, and if it does, the board is pretty locked down anyways.. That would be my only recommendation, really.
3) Mana Crypt didn't make the cut because of the controlling nature of the deck and the occasional life loss or just because you don't own one?
I own one Mana Crypt, which I found among my elder brother's old cards. It's in my Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind combo deck, which craves early, fast mana.
I wouldn't necessarily put it in GAA4 because I can't get rid of it, except with Aura of Silence and other artifact/enchantment removal... which is a waste. GAA4 can withstand a lot of damage from opponents, but I've nearly killed myself numerous times just with Boseju, Who Shelters All. Possibly doing even more damage to myself each turn is pretty rough.
If you're looking for more mana in the form of rocks, I would copy something with Phyrexian Metamorph. That's what I usually end up doing with it anyways. Your own Sol Ring; an opponent's Gilded Lotus; whatever make you happy.
I really like your deck and I am planning to build it and test it. It's a pretty nice touch on the UW EDH control.
Thank you! Do let me know how it goes. I'd be very interested in any changes you make and how those go.
Testing is critical, especially since metas differ greatly from place to place. Find what works for you and take out what doesn't. Ultimately, make a deck you're happy with!
Yosei usually freaks people out enough that they feel he is a must counter making him excellent bait. You aren't running a recursion engine for him, but in builds where I have done that he combos out pretty well too. High Market + Yosei+ Adarkar Valkyrie (for example) is expensive, but once you assemble it your oppo never gets another untap phase.
Not sure it's needed in this deck, nor am I sure you could find room for it, but it's a powerful option for a prison deck. If GAA4 + Winter Orb is minimum security, this is super max.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
I was thinking of converting my Ertai, the Corrupted All-Enchantments-All-Durdle deck into something more competitive and this seems like a good place to start. I saw that you tried Rest in Peace before and you didn't like it, but did you ever try using it with Energy Field? Or any variation on a Solitary Confinement bubble as a means to protect yourself while working toward your combo?
Anyways, thanks for the primer. It was very useful.
I was thinking of converting my Ertai, the Corrupted All-Enchantments-All-Durdle deck into something more competitive and this seems like a good place to start. I saw that you tried Rest in Peace before and you didn't like it, but did you ever try using it with Energy Field? Or any variation on a Solitary Confinement bubble as a means to protect yourself while working toward your combo?
Anyways, thanks for the primer. It was very useful.
Glad you liked it! I'll address these concerns -- along with my response to PsilosX-- below.
I saw that you tried Rest in Peace before and you didn't like it, but did you ever try using it with Energy Field? Or any variation on a Solitary Confinement bubble as a means to protect yourself while working toward your combo?
The deck doesn't need the energy field/rest in piece combo (and even if it was needed this combo is so fragile that probably it's not worth it to try find the pieces to assemble it). It is so much better to just play a pure old school winter orb.:weird:
Also rest in piece messes with all the important pieces of the deck: replenish, sun titan, aura thief (the win condition combo), academy rector, yosei, cleansing meditation and snapcaster mage!
If you want to play an Azor's Elocutors deck you will probably have to build a totally different deck. It could be pretty nice and enjoying but it would have nothing in commong with this deck for sure. Maybe there is a better commander for that also.
I believe madhatter00o agrees with me on all these. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Concerning the Solitary Confinement it's just not sth spectacular and it is card disadvantage also. It should not be needed for any reason in the deck.
You're quite right, thank you.
I've thought about Energy Field in this deck quite a lot a few months back, but came to the conclusions that PsilosX mentioned. There are too many anti-synergies. The only card it already works with is Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, and that's only if she's gotten you an emblem, which isn't guaranteed.
Solitary Confinement is great in certain decks, namely Zur who can fetch it at will. The Energy-Confinement combo is great in that deck, since it takes almost nothing to get the pieces together. That's the power of a tutor-general. This GAA4 deck isn't THAT search heavy. Granted, there's a lot of tutors/tutor effects, but the general himself isn't a tutor. Instead, GAA4 reduces the spell-power of your opponents by limiting the number of spells they can play in a round (by taxing them). The best way to capitalize on that strategy is to continue to build tax-generators and to continue limiting opponents' resources.
Further, this GAA4 relies on efficient and powerful spells to protect/manage/police the board state as it works towards its goals. It doesn't pillowfort so much as aggressively controls what your opponents can do. Hence the importance of Winter Orb, Aven Mindcensor, etc.
Lastly, you have the monoliths, could you give up a space to run Power Artifact?
(I've been suggesting that a lot lately but maybe it's frowned upon? Is infinite colorless mana really that bad in terms of going infinite?)
I really like this deck list by the way!
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Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
You should really consider Possibility Storm as Ennemy #1 too. I've played against different builds of GAA4 with my Norin's deck and this enchantment completely destroys control. You want to play that counterspell? Play Fact or Fiction instead. You want to Path to Exile my creature? Flip into a counterspell that does nothing. Meanwhile, I will pay 1 for Warp World or my Eldrazis, and for some other good stuff AKA Warstorm Surge.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Thank you!
I can definitely see Possibility Storm as being a serious problem. It can be circumvented by Senator's Divining Top, though only to a certain extent. And, if GAA4 wanted to play Counterspell, I don't think he'd be hurting too much if another instant popped up instead. What Possibility Storm makes difficult is playing specific spells from the hand... but if you just accept that and play around it, GAA4 can at least remove it.
You're right, though, that GAA4 probably shouldn't let it hit the board in the first place.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I see someone is a Red player....
It depends on the build of the deck that Grip of Chaos is in, but it's not guaranteed to mess with control decks. Countermagic is still rather effective, since you're responding to one spell at a time (unless Cascade is involved). Targeted removal is trickier, but that's why there are global (sweep/wrath) effects. I see Possibly Storm as more difficult to deal with than Grip of Chaos, but that's just me.
Red chaos effects, in general, can be difficult to handle unless the deck is built specifically to cope with such effects. Thus, Warp World and Scrambleverse are issues, too. No one in my playgroup uses effects like these, even though they are probably some of the most interesting effects in the format. (Disclaimer: my Playgroup tends to play either very competitive generals, like Zur and Azami, or other generals but with cpetitively built decks, Radha and Skullbriar. Very few chaos effects are used.)
Specifically against this GAA4 deck, I can really see Possibility Storm and Grip of Chaos as being a little slow. PS costs 5 and GoC is 6. If GAA4 is on-time, i.e., he comes out T4, the Red enchantments would cost 6 and 7, respectively. If any of the other taxers are out (and many of them can be on the field by the time GAA4 hits), it just gets worse. This limits spell-power (how many spells you can play a turn or round), and at that point, I'd imagine you'd have other things you'd rather play... like Chaos Warp.
In any case, chaos effects like these can be troublesome for this deck if they stick. You'd either have to play around them or directly exploit them to overcome theit effects. Doing so would require a good deal of creativity and a good attitude, but it can be done.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
I've been trying to think of ways to improve the thread or new sections to add that people might have questions about. But, being only one person with one point-of-view, I would like the input of anyone and everyone about what other sections to add. (For example, I was thinking of a Match-up section...)
Please let me know if you have any suggestions!
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
There are a few cards Id like to suggest incase you had never seen them (doubt that though)
Mana Web (You can see how this might be useful, as mana tapped at certain phases will empty out and they may not be left with much for either summoning or attacking! Also combos beautifully with both magus of the tabernacle and Pendrell Mists.
Steal enchantment and Copy enchantment both have done some amazing things for me!!
P.S, this is my GAA4 deck , ive had for about a year or so, constantly tweaking, there are a few obvious cards I need as well I should take out however Im pretty poor and thus cant put them in. (yet)
Anyways, if I could get some input from you that would be great haha,
the way youve written this out is great!
There are more cards you may like in my deck so have a good look haha.
Good job with this by the way
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/grand-arbiter-28-10-12-1/
As a side note from something I noticed, a good way to deal with a card such as Possibility storm is Aura of Silence
Its extremely helpful in getting rid of those pesky cards, and also does what Arbiter does best. Taxes nicely !
You can use him to copy legendary creatures without triggering the legendary rule so you can copy the Arbiter. Arbiter + Sakashima + Sphere of Resistance = Your opponents spells cost 3 more while your spells still cost 1 less(or even less for multicolor).
Also late game you can bounce him to copy something like an Iona so that you can further lock down opponents by naming two colors. Of course you don't run Iona but you might have some other fun late game options to copy.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Good call on the Aura of Silence to get rid of Possiblity Storm. I usually just use it to tax, so I forget that it kills annoying stuff.
As far as Mana Web is concerned, I've seen it and decided that it doesn't work in my meta, which means it won't work against any competitive or highly tuned deck. Granted, my play-group uses a lot of Blue and Green, and the players tend to be very, er, capable of getting around things like Mana Web. I just figured it wasn't worth it, since there tends to be easier ways of making it hard for opponents to cast spells.
I've used Steal Enchantment and Copy Enchantment before to varying effects. Steal was a bit underwhelming, even in groups that run a bunch of enchantments. The funnest thing I ever did with Copy was combo it with Enchanted Evening to kill someone's general (back before the new Legendary Rule). But I had mostly used it to create an all-shrouded board (Enchanted Evening + Greater Auramancy + Copy Enchantment), which was too cumbersome, so I took it out in favour of more s/taxxy locks.
I'll take a look at your deck and give you some input, though I'm not sure how much it will help, since I can be a bit persnickety about how GAA4 should be run. But, I figure if you like the deck, then you should just do it how you want.
I think Sakashima, the Impostor is great if you are running a lot of major creatures, like Iona. This deck keeps creatures to a minimum, which I like. It's a little more old-school control, which you kinda have to do if you're looking to make an entire table your *****.
On the other hand, if you wanted to do copy-shenanigans, there are lots of options. It's just not what this GAA4 deck does, and if I tried to change the strategy too much, the deck's power could really be diluted. I've found that the strongest decks do one thing particularly well and can do a range of other things to stabilize their strength.
Thank you!
I was actually going to do a Theros Review shortly, but I guess now's as good a time as any. Please bear with me, this will get long. (Bold ones are one's I'm interested in.)
White
Battlewise Valor: not enough attacking happens in the deck to make this worthwhile.
Cavalry Pegasus: I'm guessing this is for Limited? Not right for the deck.
Celestial Archon: Bestow is meh, and it's a meh creature.
Chained to the Rocks: Unusable in WU.
Chosen by Heliod: Too creature-dependent, though the card replacement is nice.
Dauntless Onslaught: Why so much creature-BS? Oh... New World Order and all that jazz... frickin' WotC.
Decorated Griffin: I wish griffins were better in general.
Divine Verdict: White has better removal.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion: Man, when I heard Elspeth was coming back in Theros, I was so happy. But this card is so underwhelming for me in general; just very uninspired. Not bad for token decks, but I wish R&D would get a little more creative with the established 'walkers, rather than keep making slightly different but mostly similar versions of them.
Ephara's Warden: Costs too much for a creature; the ability requires haste (which it won't get in this deck) and it's a rather restricted ability. Probably meant for Limited.
Evangel of Heliod: Good for token decks.
(I'm sensing a theme, WotC...)
Fabled Hero: I could see running 3- or 4-of in a blue-white-weenie Standard with Gods Willing. Not a terrible card, but not right for this.
Favored Hoplite: See above.
Gift of Immortality: Too highly dependent on creatures. Plus, there aren't a lot of creatures in this deck that I feel really need to stay on the 'field.
Glare of Heresy: I wish it weren't so restricted. But then, they'd actually be giving White a good card, and we can't have that, now can we? XP
Gods Willing: Scry is nice, but I'd rather just counter a spell or something than try to protect a creature for a turn.
Heliod, God of the Sun: I can see a pretty sweet mono-White token deck coming out of this guy. He's just not right for GAA4.
Heliod's Emissary: Uhh... no.
Hopeful Eidolon: I want enchantments that lock down opponents more than one's that buff my creatures, which are susceptible to bouncing... which causes problems if this guy is Bestowed. (Yeah, he'll pop off and become a creature, but he's a meh creature in EDH.)
Hundred-Handed One: Ghostly Prison and Propaganda really do just solve all the attacking problems...
Lagonna-Band Elder: Good for Limited, I'd imagine. Or an interesting pauper, ETB Esper build...
Last Breath: White and Blue each have better removal options.
Leonin Snarecaster: Underwhelming in EDH; not particularly useful in this deck.
Observant Alseid: Siiiigh... no.
Ordeal of Heliod: Pretty good for my Obzedat deck, but not so great here.
Phalanx Leader: Would be good in multiples.
Ray of Dissolution: But... Disenchant is so much better...
Setessan Battle Priest: This deck isn't Heroic... I'm not gonna target my own creatures with the BS I'm packin'.
Silent Artisan: .... uh uh.
Soldier of the Pantheon: Oh boy! 1 life! Obviously better in a different format.
Spear of Heliod: Again, quite exciting for my Obzedat deck. Not right for this one. The +1/+1 is nice, but creatures, again, aren't a big thing of this deck.
Traveling Philosopher: Thanks, but no thanks.
Vanquish the Foul: Better removal can be had in White and Blue.
Wingsteed Rider: Heroic is just an wonky mechanic...
Yoked Ox: Wall of Denial is just such a house..
Blue
Annul: I see why thee card got reprinted. There's better counterspells in Magic, though.
Aqueous Form: There's better draw available to Blue.
Artisan of Forms: If you're doing copy shenanigans, maybe. But I'm not doing that here.
Benthic Giant: Erm...
Bident of Thassa: I want it for Talrand, but not for GAA4.
Breaching Hippocamp: Would be good for ETB shenanigans, I'd imagine.
Coastline Chimera: Yet another creature that's just not gonna cut it for EDH.
Curse of Swine: It's sorcery-speed, unfortunately.
Dissolve: Perhaps one of the better spells in the set. I prefer Dissipate, though, since GY tricks are very much a thing. Scry on a counterspell is solid, though.
Fate Foretold: Uhm.. okay?
Gainsay: Too conditional.
Griptide: Memory Lapse does this better. Otherwise a bounce will suffice. Or an exile spell >:3
Horizon Scholar: I'm guessing this might be an option in drafts?
Lost in a Labyrinth: Again, there are easier ways of manipulating attacks.
Master of Waves: I'm sure it's a fine card, but I don't see how it would contribute to prison-building.
Meletis Charlatan: I'd consider it for a Melek deck, not even Niv-Mizzet 1.0. It could be fun in the Melek deck, though, because copying spells is pretty damn hilarious.
Mnemonic Wall: No thanks, I have better walls in my prison
Nimbus Naiad: Bestow, again. No.
Omenspeaker: Probably good in multiples, especially in Limited and/or Standard.
Ordeal of Thassa: Blue has better draw that is less conditional/ dependent on creatures.
Prescient Chimera: Good for Talrand... very good for Talrand.
Prognostic Sphinx: Card advantage is too precious in this deck to toss cards all willy-nilly. Talrand would like this Sphinx with how much CA it's running, though.
Sea God's Revenge: Cyclonic Rift is just soooooo much better! And it costs the same with GAA4 out.
Sealock Monster: Is anybody else reminded of Islandhome?
Shipbreaker Kraken: Now that I think about it, Lorthos-tribal would have a lot of fun with this set.
Stymied Hopes: I like my counterspells to be harder and meaner.
Swan Song: Too conditional for EDH. Great for the set, though.
Thassa, God of the Sea: I really like the Scry 1 at each upkeep. Like, a lot... Plus, it's an enchantment. That costs 3 (2 with GAA4 out). That turns into an indestructible beater (and if Greater Auramancy is out, it'll have Shroud, too). This is a very exciting card, but I'm hesitant, since it lacks oomph that a good prison likes.
Thassa's Bounty: Blue has better draw, and I don't care much for mill in EDH. It can be dangerous.
Thassa's Emissary: No..
Triton Fortune Hunter: Next!
Triton Shorethief: Oh, merfolk...
Triton Tactics: This smells like it's supposed to work with those Heroic creatures...
Vaporkin: No.
Voyage's End: I don't even think I'm running Boomerang.. But this is a pretty good bounce spell. I still like Cyclonic Rift better.
Wavecrash Triton: Creatures, creatures everywhere... sigh.
Multi-Coloured
Battlewise Hoplite: Good in multiples, I dare say.
Daxos of Meletis: Doesn't work in EDH. "Spend[ing] mana as though it were mana of any colour" still comes out colourless, so you wouldn't be able to produce the right colours of mana to cast the spell anyways.
Medomai the Ageless: Very interesting. It would cast 4 with GAA4 out, so it could feasibly come out very early. Problem is haste. Right now, Lightning Greaves is the only haste enabler, and if that's too busy giving my general shroud, I don't think I'm going to equip it to Medomai. (My meta will kill GAA4 as soon as he's unshrouded, and after casting Medomai for 4, I'd need another 1-2 [Blue] mana open to protect my next play. In other words, casting Medomai with counter-backup would still require about 6 mana....) Getting extra turns out of him would actually be pretty tricky. Anyways, he seems like a huge target that would just eat up removal.. Not bad in itself if it draws removal/counters away from other things, but at the same time, Temporal Mastery is roughly the same cost (6 cast from hand with general out; 1 Miracle'd with general out) for an extra turn and is harder to interact with. Granted, if enough of the prison is set up, it would be hard for opponents to cast any removal on Medomai... I'm very much on the fence about this guy. I want to (ab)use him, but he's just so hard to abuse. What do you all think?
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Your build feels incredibly land light to be relying on an inevitable endgame. Stumbling on land drops seems like the easiest way to lose against.....just about anything, really, when everyone is trying to do broken stuff and you're hoping to prison them out before they do so. I should add that my group does not enforce the partial paris rule, opting instead to just use the MTG tournament rules for mulligans.
Secondly, your build appears (to me) to be built to survive in a very aggro-heavy meta; how would you go about altering it for a meta which is almost 100% good stuff decks (i.e., mine)? No one (besides me) plays instant win combo or non-voltron aggro, favoring instead such gems as non-combo Maelstrom Wanderer, or Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
In any case, in the year and a half I've been playing the tuned version of this deck, "stumbling into land drops" has never been a thing. There's enough card advantage, including Sensei's Divining Top and Land Tax, for example, that I've never really had a problem getting land if I needed it.
Also, though I see why you'd mention mulligan rules, I've played the deck numerous times with partial paris and tournament rules. It is quite capable of getting land and winning in both mulligan rule sets.
"Prison[ing] [opponents] out" is simply one of the strategies, I guess. The deck can become very dependent on opponents, and thus more reactive, if you've got a hand full of counters/removal. The prison is ideal in the early game, but if the circumstances warrant it, waiting to build the prison might be the best option. However, as the Judge (aka, GAA4), it's the job of this deck to police the board and make sure it can set itself up for eventual victory, including -- but not limited to -- removing permanents, countering spells, wiping the board, and drawing cards.
The deck can handle all archetypes. My main meta has 1 dedicated aggro player (Radha/Skullbriar), 1 aggro-control player (Doran), and 2 dedicated combo players (Azami and Riku, though the Riku player also uses Zur and Zedruu, so it can handle dedicated control, as well). Granted, there is a lot of permanent removal thanks to White, there's also plenty of spell removal due to Blue. Because of the high ratio of Instants in the deck (21, I believe), most of this removal is happening at instant-speed, so the White permanent-removal can actually act as combo-disruption. For example, if someone is trying to Kiki-combo, a PtE/StP/Cyclonic is enough to stop that nonsense before the combo goes off.
The inclusion of such deterrent cards as Ghostly Prison and Propaganda (among others) is mostly political; if they cannot attack you, they're attacking other players. And in my experience, which is likely differs from yours, goodstuff.dec tends to play big creatures and swing with them.
And on to goodstuff.dec. I've played tournaments that ran the gamut in terms of deck builds. Some were clearly net-decks (the player didn't know what he was doing with cards that were clearly too powerful for his skill-level), some were theme decks (which lost... all the time). The majority were goodstuff decks. More than anything, goodstuff decks are just frustrating because the players don't seem to put a lot of time and effort into building their decks. (They might, of course; it just doesn't look that way.) This is especially apparent since GAA4 very much requires a lot of thought to play correctly. In any case, I haven't ever felt the need to change the deck to handle goodstuff.decs. It's been just fine as it is against such decks, in my dealings with them.
The key to handling goodstuff is removing/countering the right stuff, by which I mean the stuff that will pose the greatest threat to the survival of GAA4 (aka, you). Vorinclex and Eldrazi titans usually top the goodstuff list in terms of "I should get rid of that... now!" Extensions of these cards, such as searches (Natural Order, Green Sun's Zenith, Birthing Pod) are other things to consider countering.
Without further info on the decks you're facing, I don't think I can be of much help... However, with cascade running around, you might consider Mindbreak Trap and Time Stop. They both exile cards on the stack, which is incredibly handy.
And with Maelstrom Wanderer, don't forget to make them pay for the cascaded spells. Yeah, they don't have to pay for those spells' mana costs, but they still have to pay their taxes. They always have to pay their taxes...
EDIT: Also given that goodstuff.decs tend to just throw up a bunch of, well, goodstuff, you might want to consider Humility to just stop it all. This is a real double-edged sword, though, since all the creatures in this GAA4 deck have abilities that are meant to advance the game plan in some way. Shutting those abilities off makes all the creatures useless, which you have to be really careful of... especially if your opponents simply have more creatures.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
On Ghostly Prison/Propaganda.....I don't think they're going to stop my meta from attacking me unless they literally can't pay it, because I know the people I play with will happily spend their turn paying the toll if it means I die faster. Probably because my other decks include Azami, Arcum, and combo Saffi. Politicking, as I think you're imagining it, doesn't usually happen until after I'm dead.
Maelstrom Wanderer shouldn't be too hard to deal with as long as he doesn't get too many free cascades, and doesn't find a way to cast his general every turn - usually Erratic Portal or Crystal Shard. (Food Chain is usually game over).
Hopefully I get some games and some actual data soon.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=499393 My Sales Thread
My decks are always built with both multiplayer and 1v1 in mind because my playgroup does both, and I don't like switching cards in and out.
Indeed, the fewer players involved, the more potent this deck gets. Reason being, it's easier to focus the removal and counters. Rather than saving them up in your hand as the round passes from one player to the next, you only need to worry about one person.
I haven't looked too closely as 1v1 GAA4 lists, but I will say that in the many, many 1v1 games I've played over the years, I can only recall losing once, and that was to my friend's brutal Zur.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
1. No mention of sphinx's relevation. What are you thoughts on the card?
2. Any chance you'd consider replacing the solemn with burnished hart? You can get the hart back with sun titan.
3. How about thawing glaciers? Seems like for a deck with low land it could be a crummier land tax / land filterer.
4. Any thoughts on Kjeldoran Outpost to create chump blockers?
5. I really like your build, but I have a control (non-prison) Lady Sun deck that wins with powerful creatures protected by counterspells and card advantage already. I'm considering trying to build this as a near creatureless build with a ton of wraths as something different. The only creatures would be Aura thief, academy rectors, sun titan, snapcaster mage and both gods. There would be 10-15 wrath effects (yes u/w really has that many!) along with more shutdown enchantments like sphere of safety, humility, etc. I'd also have to play GA4 very carefully to prevent him dying all the time and I fully expect I'd have to play this deck in archenemy mode a lot of the time Do you think this is doable?
EDH Decks
RGMarhault Elsdragon (A Touch of Rampage)RG
GWTrostani, Early Bird (Wurm Tribal)GW
RWAgrus Kos, Bumbat Drinkin' BadassRW
RDiaochan, Hateful BeautyR
I don't dislike it, exactly, but I don't really like it either. It's fine if lifedrain is a problem in your Meta, but otherwise it's too specifically late-game. One of the virtues of this GAA4 deck is the versatility of it's cards, especially it's spells. Having a card that performs two functions, one of which might not be necessary (gain life) and the other which other cards in the deck already do except cheaper (draw cards) just isn't too appealing to me.
There's a chance, but I don't like that you have to pay to activate it... Solemn just does his thing so well on his own... and I find it rare that I don't use that 3 mana for something else during someone's turn (i.e., I usually counter/remove stuff or draw cards). If I need repeated land access, I'll grab Land Tax. Plus, Tax is easier to get out of the GY in case someone feels the need to kill it (Sun Titan and Replenish).
I mean, it's abysmally slow. It and the lands it fetches CIPT, necessitating Amulet of Vigor. If you can find a slot for the Amulet, then this might not be a bad choice. It's just far from.optimal.
Trust, this deck doesn't have any problems handling aggro decks or token swarms. With all the controlly sort of enchantments and spells floating around, I'm not sure chump blockers are all that worth it.
DEFINITELY! I have rather few creatures in my build as well. That's because it focuses on classic (Legacy-esque) control, which depends heavily on spells rather than on creatures.
The as-many-wraths-as-possible route will definitely require a Blue Leyline, though, because wrathing on other people's turns (just before yours) always rocks.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
What about Kismet/Frozen AEther? Too redundant/win-more with Blind Obedience?
Mogis, God of Slaughter
Daxos of Meletis
From Comm '13, there wasn't a lot to offer to control. Unexpectedly Absent, however, is an intriguing card. I thought about putting it in when it was first spoiled but then I thought, "Well, what does it synergize with? Shuffle effects. Not bad against rampy decks or tutor-heavy builds (which are common for me to deal with). But my opponents usually have their generals protected by the time you can do anything to them. Well, I'll give it a try. Now what to take out...?" And that was the end of it. I couldn't for the life of me think of what Unexpectedly Absent could replace.
White removal in this deck is pretty clutch. I wouldn't take out any of it to add in UA. So instead, Blue removal would need to come out. But the deck is at such a good balance of counters, removal, tutors, and actual cards to play, that I'm a little lost as to how the deck can be improved by UA. What can come out and be made better by the replacement of UA? If you can think of something, please let me know!
As for Frozen Aether and Kismet, they're too redundant, since their effects can't stack. Unlike taxing, which has taxes that get bigger the more of them you heap on, Frozen Aether/ Kismet produce the same effect, no matter how many of them are on the board. So, if you already have one out, the other is a dead draw. Since Blind Obedience does almost the exact same thing (minus the land-tapping) for half the cost, Frozen Aether/ Kismet just aren't worth it.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Welcome! I'm glad you've decided to participate in our community!
I should start by saying that this deck is built in paper. I had to perfect it and optimize it over the course of about 2 years, since I'm just a student and saving up money from the odd jobs I do takes time. The biggest purchase I've made for the deck was Mana Drain, which I got for $125 at the time. I've been satisfied with that.
Basically, Wasteland didn't make it in because Strip Mine is a far cheaper version of it. I already run a lot of utility lands, which produce colourless (or no, in the case of Maze of Ith) mana. The colour balance is critical, and I'm very aware of that because of how few lands I run.
If budget isn't an issue, I guess Wasteland is great if you have it, but I wouldn't run both Wasteland and Strip Mine. With how much taxing and Orb effects (Winter Orb and Sphere of Resistance) there are, the deck already restricts opponents' access to mana. The Strip Mine is meant to kill lands that are giving opponents advantage that resists the control you're trying to enforce. Sun Titan retrieves the Strip Mine, too, so reusing it is very much a possibility.
Every time I've dropped him (and killed him... Thanks High Market!), he's either stopped someone from comboing, thus buying me time for an answer, or he's killed someone's turn, thus effectively buying me and extra turn.
He also synergizes with Tamiyo, the Moon Sage for cards and Gideon Jura for killing creatures.
I mean, as far as establishing or maintaining control of the board state, he's pretty up there on the list. He does cost 6, 5 with GAA4 out, which might make him difficult to cast if you're holding counters/removal, but he's fine fodder for discarding if you have to or eating other counters/removal.
I haven't been impressed with the other "control" creatures that have been coming out lately. Thessa, God of the Sea might be a good replacement if you're just not happy with Yosei. However, this deck rarely swings, and if it does, the board is pretty locked down anyways.. That would be my only recommendation, really.
I own one Mana Crypt, which I found among my elder brother's old cards. It's in my Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind combo deck, which craves early, fast mana.
I wouldn't necessarily put it in GAA4 because I can't get rid of it, except with Aura of Silence and other artifact/enchantment removal... which is a waste. GAA4 can withstand a lot of damage from opponents, but I've nearly killed myself numerous times just with Boseju, Who Shelters All. Possibly doing even more damage to myself each turn is pretty rough.
If you're looking for more mana in the form of rocks, I would copy something with Phyrexian Metamorph. That's what I usually end up doing with it anyways. Your own Sol Ring; an opponent's Gilded Lotus; whatever make you happy.
Thank you! Do let me know how it goes. I'd be very interested in any changes you make and how those go.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Testing is critical, especially since metas differ greatly from place to place. Find what works for you and take out what doesn't. Ultimately, make a deck you're happy with!
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Not sure it's needed in this deck, nor am I sure you could find room for it, but it's a powerful option for a prison deck. If GAA4 + Winter Orb is minimum security, this is super max.
I was thinking of converting my Ertai, the Corrupted All-Enchantments-All-Durdle deck into something more competitive and this seems like a good place to start. I saw that you tried Rest in Peace before and you didn't like it, but did you ever try using it with Energy Field? Or any variation on a Solitary Confinement bubble as a means to protect yourself while working toward your combo?
Anyways, thanks for the primer. It was very useful.
Glad you liked it! I'll address these concerns -- along with my response to PsilosX-- below.
You're quite right, thank you.
I've thought about Energy Field in this deck quite a lot a few months back, but came to the conclusions that PsilosX mentioned. There are too many anti-synergies. The only card it already works with is Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, and that's only if she's gotten you an emblem, which isn't guaranteed.
Solitary Confinement is great in certain decks, namely Zur who can fetch it at will. The Energy-Confinement combo is great in that deck, since it takes almost nothing to get the pieces together. That's the power of a tutor-general. This GAA4 deck isn't THAT search heavy. Granted, there's a lot of tutors/tutor effects, but the general himself isn't a tutor. Instead, GAA4 reduces the spell-power of your opponents by limiting the number of spells they can play in a round (by taxing them). The best way to capitalize on that strategy is to continue to build tax-generators and to continue limiting opponents' resources.
Further, this GAA4 relies on efficient and powerful spells to protect/manage/police the board state as it works towards its goals. It doesn't pillowfort so much as aggressively controls what your opponents can do. Hence the importance of Winter Orb, Aven Mindcensor, etc.
Thank you to Rivenor for this awesome banner!
Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Or is he just there to work towards the emblem for more stax mayhem?
Also, have you considered running Land Equilibrium?
Lastly, you have the monoliths, could you give up a space to run Power Artifact?
(I've been suggesting that a lot lately but maybe it's frowned upon? Is infinite colorless mana really that bad in terms of going infinite?)
I really like this deck list by the way!