I don't understand what you're getting at.
Sygg lets you play both colors, and artificially restricting yourself to one color is a choice not an obligation.
But it's a choice you don't get with traditional multicolor.
I can see hybrid gods who are INSANE but require a very impressive boardstate to become creatures. Because you can have 2 colors "feed" this god, the devotion # would start at 2 digits imo.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
You don't need to tell me twice. Augury Adept is an abomination.
Now you're hitting on the true issue:
There are several rather bad hybrid designs in MtG.
Something like Slippery Bogle is perfect, as it could be printed in either color.
Something like Overbeing of Myth is a poor hybrid design, as that would never be printed in Mono-G,
which hasn't cared about hand size in a looooooong time, and the draw one ability is not very green.
(Side note- Overbeing of Myth promo art would make good Theros God art, IMO).
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I'd do some pretty unspeakable things if it got me a Warped Devotion style legend.
Oh wow- I actually never knew of this card.
I can't *believe* this and Recoil were in Standard at the same time-
no wonder (U/B) can no longer have good things.
That actually seems like a reasonable ability for an indestructible enchantment,
and a very fun ability to build a deck around.
What are the chances the activated ability *isn't* some sort of mill?
Like 5%?
Also, as interested as I am in Phenax, (W/B) is still the color pair with the most limited Generals, IMO.
I would sell my soul to an Athreos that supports either lifedrain or reanimation:
Static: Exquisite Blood
Activated: Each player loses X life
or
Static: No Mercy
Activated: Reanimate
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Oh wow- I actually never knew of this card.
I can't *believe* this and Recoil were in Standard at the same time-
no wonder (U/B) can no longer have good things.
I can't believe they haven't printed a non-land targeting recoil yet (or a mass creature recoil as a U/B wrath WHICH DOESN'T EXIST FOR SOME STUPID REASON AND WOTC HATES MY COLOR COMBINATION BECAUSE THEY'RE MEAN!) but I digress....
U/B will prolly mill. I pray he's more interesting that that trash Vosk.
The more we discuss, I cannot foresee how the minor Gods would be anything other than hybrid, but I could use a surprise. Wizards haven't done that much recently. They do love crashing MTGO though. lol
Regarding Phenax, let's hope it's something more generic. =)
Whenever you draw a card, each opponent discards a card. UB: Return target permanent to its owner's hand.
That player discards a card.
Now you're hitting on the true issue:
There are several rather bad hybrid designs in MtG.
Something like Slippery Bogle is perfect, as it could be printed in either color.
Something like Overbeing of Myth is a poor hybrid design, as that would never be printed in Mono-G,
which hasn't cared about hand size in a looooooong time, and the draw one ability is not very green.
(Side note- Overbeing of Myth promo art would make good Theros God art, IMO).
I was mainly just pointing out how devotion could work for 2color Gods, however I like your activated ability better. As Jivan has pointed out many a time. We're probably getting stuck with mill.
@Jivan what if they reprinted Aura Graft this block? It's not Recoil by any means, but it would take a load off of Madcap Skills shenanegans.
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You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
I was mainly just pointing out how devotion could work for 2color Gods, however I like your activated ability better. As Jivan has pointed out many a time. We're probably getting stuck with mill.
@Jivan what if they reprinted Aura Graft this block? It's not Recoil by any means, but it would take a load off of Madcap Skills shenanegans.
I don't exactly care about any issues in limited/standard/anywhere. I just want more depth to U/B then LOOK AT ALL THIS MILL
I don't exactly care about any issues in limited/standard/anywhere. I just want more depth to U/B then LOOK AT ALL THIS MILL
It's a flavor issue really.
Vorthos, I remember. I'm just saying step in the right direction. Part of the reason I gave my version of Phenax Fateseal 1 every turn.
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You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Vorthos, I remember. I'm just saying step in the right direction. Part of the reason I gave my version of Phenax Fateseal 1 every turn.
Fateseal won't happen. What I'd be happy with would be "look at the top x cards of target players library and put them back in any order". It has the feeling of fateseal without being as 'violating' to use MaRo's terminology. Of course x would probably be 2 or something, but that's cool. u/b needs to feel somewhat 'unfair' and intrusive. Fateseal got that feeling perfect but sadly, it's a dead mechanic.
Fateseal won't happen. What I'd be happy with would be "look at the top x cards of target players library and put them back in any order". It has the feeling of fateseal without being as 'violating' to use MaRo's terminology. Of course x would probably be 2 or something, but that's cool. u/b needs to feel somewhat 'unfair' and intrusive. Fateseal got that feeling perfect but sadly, it's a dead mechanic.
The more I look back at that mechanic, the more I agree with. If it's dead, we just need to pull it from the graveyard and put it back on the battlefield.
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You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
The more I look back at that mechanic, the more I agree with. If it's dead, we just need to pull it from the graveyard and put it back on the battlefield.
Hence why I suggest a retuning of the mechanic. Like Chroma -> Devotion or Fading -> Vanishing. The color combination actually needs a less 1 dimensional mechanical identity and granted it REALLY needs a creature based one but I don't think we'll be finding one of those any time soon (you know, until they keyword milltouch :mad:).
It's pretty bad, but green gets to make copies of its own things (see Populate or something like Doubling Season), so this could have been salvaged by "creature you control".
Alas.
Something like Overbeing of Myth is a poor hybrid design, as that would never be printed in Mono-G,
which hasn't cared about hand size in a looooooong time,
Shenanigans. MaRo started in green and Mark Rosewater has said on a number of occasions still is in it's section of the pie even if it hasn't been printed in a while.
no, it says if your devotion to either color is ever less than 3, it is not a creature. So you have to have both 2 mana of the first color and 2 mana of the second for it to be a creature, making these multicolored gods fully multicolored.
Hmm a bit astray but could it be considered if the Devotion was not directly linked to mana-cost this time around and rather to quantity of color-(permanents/creatures)?
EG: Unless you control two other black permanents and two other blue permanents, Phenax is not a creature.
As long as your total devotion to blue and black is less than 5, Phenax isn't a creature.
At the beginning of your upkeep, look at the top card of target opponent's library. You may put that card on the bottom of it's owner's library.
:symu::symb:: Target player puts the top two cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
4/5
Already said but as Fateseal has been buried we might just get Moonring Island's active (now as a static) and then we have to use mana through the milling to remove them from his grasp.
Perhaps it might even be each upkeep, look at top card of opponent's lib. Also the mill should perhaps be 3 for UB perhaps even with an additional clause like, "If Phenax is a creature, mill 2 more".
Come to think of it, what is the flavor of UB?
Within their colors they have:
- Counter magic
- Creature removal (Destroy, -x/-x, a few Exiles, Sacrifice)
- Milling
- Discard
- Knowledge (thinking players' hands, library, tutors)
- Bounce
- Fear/Intimidate
- (Hexproof) on Blue in low quantities
- Card Draw (can't believe I was this long to figure they had card draw xD)
- Flying
- Reanimation
- Cloning (Body Double, Clone)
- Mind controlling (Sorin Markov, Control Magic)
So what do we figure is UB flavor or could we come up with another type of flavor which is not present here but WotC could possibly explore so UB feels more in depth than just milling (which originated as a Blue mechanic but apparently is the only thing associated with UB-classic).
Fateseal won't happen. What I'd be happy with would be "look at the top x cards of target players library and put them back in any order". It has the feeling of fateseal without being as 'violating' to use MaRo's terminology. Of course x would probably be 2 or something, but that's cool. u/b needs to feel somewhat 'unfair' and intrusive. Fateseal got that feeling perfect but sadly, it's a dead mechanic.
Hmm a bit astray but could it be considered if the Devotion was not directly linked to mana-cost this time around and rather to quantity of color-(permanents/creatures)?
EG: Unless you control two other black permanents and two other blue permanents, Phenax is not a creature.
Already said but as Fateseal has been buried we might just get Moonring Island's active (now as a static) and then we have to use mana through the milling to remove them from his grasp.
Perhaps it might even be each upkeep, look at top card of opponent's lib. Also the mill should perhaps be 3 for UB perhaps even with an additional clause like, "If Phenax is a creature, mill 2 more".
Come to think of it, what is the flavor of UB?
Within their colors they have:
- Counter magic
- Creature removal (Destroy, -x/-x, a few Exiles, Sacrifice)
- Milling
- Discard
- Knowledge (thinking players' hands, library, tutors)
- Bounce
- Fear/Intimidate
- (Hexproof) on Blue in low quantities
- Card Draw (can't believe I was this long to figure they had card draw xD)
- Flying
- Reanimation
- Cloning (Body Double, Clone)
- Mind controlling (Sorin Markov, Control Magic)
So what do we figure is UB flavor or could we come up with another type of flavor which is not present here but WotC could possibly explore so UB feels more in depth than just milling (which originated as a Blue mechanic but apparently is the only thing associated with UB-classic).
You can't change a mechanic mid-block. Besides, that would make tokens prog devotion..
Mill 3 for :symu::symb:? Then add 2? Uuuuuummm... did you notice the gods don't tap to activate making them repeatable? Nephalia Drownyard tapped and did 3 for 3, and that was a viable wincon. Manadump mill would be ridiculous, and defeat the purpose of looking at their library. "Who cares, I have 4 lands and Phenax is a creature, so I'm just gonna mill that card and the next 9 cards anyway!"
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Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Drownyard was also a land which is a lot tougher to deal with than a creature and/or enchantment.
The idea was not to suggest a balanced ability but something interesting. Also mill 3 on repeat is the equivalent to 1 damage (which is what Niv Mizzet can do on similar terms AND provide cards - he's not resilient in the same way but still). Of course we have that you "drain" your library-HP with starting hand and progression of the game and additional card drawing.
I came up with the additional clause as I wrote it so it may be better split at 2 as normal and 1-2 bonus as creature (figure the creature-aspect is likely not that easy to satisfy if you run board wipe control). Also if we consider Nylea's +2 power = 6 cards in terms of relativity, Purphoros deals 6 card-damage on creature-entrance and 3 times X times Y where X is unblocked attackers and Y is per 3 mana charged.
Drownyard may have been a viable wincon in Innistrad Standard, but that doesn't mean it would definitely be viable if Phenax had a version like mine (2 + 2 creature).
Also consider during Innistrad that we had other mill-adds like Thought Scour. I didn't follow Innistrad standard much so I don't even know if people on the higher competitive levels ran with Trepanation Blade, Mindshrieker or other styles like it.
However I know Looting was a used mechanic, which obviously makes it easier to make mill-3 a viable win-con.
As far as I recall the idea of the deck was to stall the game into a lock where your opponent couldn't do much and then eventually win through milling.
However atm we have Aetherling to compete for the clock, so why should the stalling deck ever look to Mill 2-8 if they can gain 4-8 damage through each turn from turn 8?
It's getting late but I would really have liked to make an example to see the effects of a damage centered deck against a mill-centered with only Phenax - assuming the 2 + 2 model.
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But it's a choice you don't get with traditional multicolor.
Not really.
There's nothing stopping you from playing only black spells in a Dralnu deck.
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I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
You can't cast dralnu with no blue sources. I can cast Sygg with only basic swamps.
Level 1 Judge
I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
That wasn't the point of the discussion and you know it. We were talking about in a vacuum Hybrid =/= Traditional Multicolor.
You don't need to tell me twice.
Augury Adept is an abomination.
Level 1 Judge
I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
Spitting Image is worse.
I like it.:thumbsup:
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I'm pretty sure Phenax is going to be:
Whenever you draw a card, each opponent discards a card.
UB: Return target permanent to its owner's hand.
That player discards a card.
Now you're hitting on the true issue:
There are several rather bad hybrid designs in MtG.
Something like Slippery Bogle is perfect, as it could be printed in either color.
Something like Overbeing of Myth is a poor hybrid design, as that would never be printed in Mono-G,
which hasn't cared about hand size in a looooooong time, and the draw one ability is not very green.
(Side note- Overbeing of Myth promo art would make good Theros God art, IMO).
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I'd do some pretty unspeakable things if it got me a Warped Devotion style legend.
Oh wow- I actually never knew of this card.
I can't *believe* this and Recoil were in Standard at the same time-
no wonder (U/B) can no longer have good things.
That actually seems like a reasonable ability for an indestructible enchantment,
and a very fun ability to build a deck around.
What are the chances the activated ability *isn't* some sort of mill?
Like 5%?
Also, as interested as I am in Phenax, (W/B) is still the color pair with the most limited Generals, IMO.
I would sell my soul to an Athreos that supports either lifedrain or reanimation:
Static: Exquisite Blood
Activated: Each player loses X life
or
Static: No Mercy
Activated: Reanimate
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I can't believe they haven't printed a non-land targeting recoil yet (or a mass creature recoil as a U/B wrath WHICH DOESN'T EXIST FOR SOME STUPID REASON AND WOTC HATES MY COLOR COMBINATION BECAUSE THEY'RE MEAN!) but I digress....
U/B will prolly mill. I pray he's more interesting that that trash Vosk.
The more we discuss, I cannot foresee how the minor Gods would be anything other than hybrid, but I could use a surprise. Wizards haven't done that much recently. They do love crashing MTGO though. lol
Regarding Phenax, let's hope it's something more generic. =)
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
I was mainly just pointing out how devotion could work for 2color Gods, however I like your activated ability better. As Jivan has pointed out many a time. We're probably getting stuck with mill.
@Jivan what if they reprinted Aura Graft this block? It's not Recoil by any means, but it would take a load off of Madcap Skills shenanegans.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
I don't exactly care about any issues in limited/standard/anywhere. I just want more depth to U/B then LOOK AT ALL THIS MILL
It's a flavor issue really.
Vorthos, I remember. I'm just saying step in the right direction. Part of the reason I gave my version of Phenax Fateseal 1 every turn.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Fateseal won't happen. What I'd be happy with would be "look at the top x cards of target players library and put them back in any order". It has the feeling of fateseal without being as 'violating' to use MaRo's terminology. Of course x would probably be 2 or something, but that's cool. u/b needs to feel somewhat 'unfair' and intrusive. Fateseal got that feeling perfect but sadly, it's a dead mechanic.
The more I look back at that mechanic, the more I agree with. If it's dead, we just need to pull it from the graveyard and put it back on the battlefield.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Hence why I suggest a retuning of the mechanic. Like Chroma -> Devotion or Fading -> Vanishing. The color combination actually needs a less 1 dimensional mechanical identity and granted it REALLY needs a creature based one but I don't think we'll be finding one of those any time soon (you know, until they keyword milltouch :mad:).
It's pretty bad, but green gets to make copies of its own things (see Populate or something like Doubling Season), so this could have been salvaged by "creature you control".
Alas.
Shenanigans.
MaRo started in green and Mark Rosewater has said on a number of occasions still is in it's section of the pie even if it hasn't been printed in a while.
Further shenanigans.
Green has more cantripping creatures than other colors (Elvish Visionary, Sylvan Caryatid, Climbing Kavu, etc), gets Magpie variants (Ohran Viper, Seshiro the Anointed) and just generally a lot of card draw related to its creatures.
It's a very green creature.
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I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
EG: Unless you control two other black permanents and two other blue permanents, Phenax is not a creature.
Already said but as Fateseal has been buried we might just get Moonring Island's active (now as a static) and then we have to use mana through the milling to remove them from his grasp.
Perhaps it might even be each upkeep, look at top card of opponent's lib. Also the mill should perhaps be 3 for UB perhaps even with an additional clause like, "If Phenax is a creature, mill 2 more".
Come to think of it, what is the flavor of UB?
Within their colors they have:
- Counter magic
- Creature removal (Destroy, -x/-x, a few Exiles, Sacrifice)
- Milling
- Discard
- Knowledge (thinking players' hands, library, tutors)
- Bounce
- Fear/Intimidate
- (Hexproof) on Blue in low quantities
- Card Draw (can't believe I was this long to figure they had card draw xD)
- Flying
- Reanimation
- Cloning (Body Double, Clone)
- Mind controlling (Sorin Markov, Control Magic)
So what do we figure is UB flavor or could we come up with another type of flavor which is not present here but WotC could possibly explore so UB feels more in depth than just milling (which originated as a Blue mechanic but apparently is the only thing associated with UB-classic).
It can be something Dimir Charmey (third mode)
It would mill, give knowledge and mess with his topdeck. It just has to be costed accordingly (guess 2UB).
You can't change a mechanic mid-block. Besides, that would make tokens prog devotion..
Mill 3 for :symu::symb:? Then add 2? Uuuuuummm... did you notice the gods don't tap to activate making them repeatable? Nephalia Drownyard tapped and did 3 for 3, and that was a viable wincon. Manadump mill would be ridiculous, and defeat the purpose of looking at their library. "Who cares, I have 4 lands and Phenax is a creature, so I'm just gonna mill that card and the next 9 cards anyway!"
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
The idea was not to suggest a balanced ability but something interesting. Also mill 3 on repeat is the equivalent to 1 damage (which is what Niv Mizzet can do on similar terms AND provide cards - he's not resilient in the same way but still). Of course we have that you "drain" your library-HP with starting hand and progression of the game and additional card drawing.
I came up with the additional clause as I wrote it so it may be better split at 2 as normal and 1-2 bonus as creature (figure the creature-aspect is likely not that easy to satisfy if you run board wipe control). Also if we consider Nylea's +2 power = 6 cards in terms of relativity, Purphoros deals 6 card-damage on creature-entrance and 3 times X times Y where X is unblocked attackers and Y is per 3 mana charged.
Drownyard may have been a viable wincon in Innistrad Standard, but that doesn't mean it would definitely be viable if Phenax had a version like mine (2 + 2 creature).
Also consider during Innistrad that we had other mill-adds like Thought Scour. I didn't follow Innistrad standard much so I don't even know if people on the higher competitive levels ran with Trepanation Blade, Mindshrieker or other styles like it.
However I know Looting was a used mechanic, which obviously makes it easier to make mill-3 a viable win-con.
As far as I recall the idea of the deck was to stall the game into a lock where your opponent couldn't do much and then eventually win through milling.
However atm we have Aetherling to compete for the clock, so why should the stalling deck ever look to Mill 2-8 if they can gain 4-8 damage through each turn from turn 8?
It's getting late but I would really have liked to make an example to see the effects of a damage centered deck against a mill-centered with only Phenax - assuming the 2 + 2 model.