Quebec Secession?

[Prizm]

Now, I don't live in Canada, know anyone outside the forums who lives in Canada, and live in the polar opposite of Canada, aka Los Angeles. But I saw this in the news and thought some of you Canucks might enlighten me.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061128/...anada_quebec_1

How does this affect your country? I mean, clearly its not the same thing as say, the American South, 1861. But what is its significance?

[Einsteinmonkey]

What would happen is that the rest of Canada would be relieved of a whining money drain.

[Dr. Tom]

Doesn't Quebec try to secede from Canada every so often? I seem to remember them having a vote for independence several years ago, with a very close vote as a result.

[Hammer]

Yes, this is true, Quebec has voted on seperation before in something called the 'referendum of 1995'. Quebec is a somewhat divided province where some folks (mostly the young) yearn for Quebec to be an independant state from Canada, mostly to ensure that the Quebec culture and language is protected from the constant English influence from the rest of the country. I myself am a nationalist in that I never want to see Quebec leave; the province is very beautiful and offers a lot of wonderful things to our country. I do understand the Quebecers' worries about losing their culture though since English TV, Movies, music, media, etc. is everywhere and is a constant presence in almost every country in the world. There would be many problems for both nations if Quebec did indeed seperate, and some have hinted that it would cause the breakup of the entire country; some provinces joining the US, some breaking off into more separate nations, but this is mostly speculation in my books.

[Stax]

Yes, as I recall there's an entire group of Quebec Bloc MPs and such? Quebec just really doesn't like the way the rest of the country runs itself, I guess.

[americanskater]

Originally Posted by Stax

Yes, as I recall there's an entire group of Quebec Bloc MPs and such? Quebec just really doesn't like the way the rest of the country runs itself, I guess.

They don't have to worry about it now, they're on their own accord and can run as they would.

"Free at last, Free at Last, Thank God we are free at last..."

[Hammer]

Quebec hasn't seperated yet in case people are confused. They have just been officially 'recognized' as a seperate nation within Canada. Kind of like the First Nations (native peoples), Metis Nation (native/french peoples), Inuit, etc.

[Striking Dragon]

Nation can be a term for common cultural ties (race, language, traditions etc.), but can also refer to a civic or political nation. The first often gets confused with nation-state and other ideas about sovereignty. In theory I think this is a good and moderate motion, but I'm not sure how much the Bloc will be able to use this to their advantage. One of the handful of things I actually commend the Harper team for putting forward, even if it was pre-emptive.

There is the issue of the cabinet position being resigned; which is not overly surprising, given the ideology of some of the party members and advisors.

Part of me wants Quebec to secede, just to see how it would play out.

[americanskater]

Originally Posted by Hammer

Quebec hasn't seperated yet in case people are confused. They have just been officially 'recognized' as a seperate nation within Canada. Kind of like the First Nations (native peoples), Metis Nation (native/french peoples), Inuit, etc.

Oh... Ok, thanks but this means more as a cultural group than a sovereign state? (I.E. Cherokee Nation as opposed to the Vatican?)

[Shadowhunter]

Originally Posted by Einsteinmonkey

What would happen is that the rest of Canada would be relieved of a whining money drain.

Einsteinmonkey, do you know the slightest bit of what you're speaking about? Unless you're from Alberta, Quebec gives more money to Canada than your province. Due to such things as "déséquilibre fiscal" (i don't know the english term, it means that some provinces gives, in relation to their population and amount of resources more money, or receive less than another province), it has been proven by Economists from McGill University and "Université du Québec à Montréal" that if Quebec would separate tomorrow (well the tomorrow was something like 9 months ago), within 5 years it would have 17 G$CDN more than they would 5 years from now if they stayed, because that's the amount that would be given to Canada, an amount that they redistribute among the other provinces.

Why do you think that most federal politicians in Canada wants Quebec to stay in the country? If it was only a "Whining money drain" as you say it, we would already have been kicked out of Canada when they saw that about 50% (the 1995 referendum was won by the No (don't secede) with a .8% majority, 50.4 % vs 49.6%) of the Quebecois didn't want to stay within Canada.

I'm out

[Wisetsm]

Originally Posted by Einsteinmonkey

What would happen is that the rest of Canada would be relieved of a whining money drain.

Agreed. Quebec demands that everything in Canada must be presented in french as well as english. If you want to ship a product to be sold in Canada from the states then you need french on the label. Wonder why it takes so long for the flight safety demo at the start of every flight in Canada? Thats Quebec's fault. Many government jobs require that you know french for no real reason. This costs Canada millions of dollars every year. But they are not the slightest bit grateful. They think they can make it on their own without the rest of Canada. They want separate from Canada while still using our postal system and currency. As far as politics go, Quebec has a large amount of power because they control so many seats in the house. We do not have an elected senate like you americans, so even though most of the country's tax dollars come from Alberta, the power still sits in the east. This is forcing our tax dollars to pay for their french programs, all the while them complaining. This move is largely symbolic, a move to suck up to Quebec with no real cost to Canada. So it really means nothing.

[Volcanon]

Originally Posted by Shadowhunter

Einsteinmonkey, do you know the slightest bit of what you're speaking about? Unless you're from Alberta, Quebec gives more money to Canada than your province. Due to such things as "déséquilibre fiscal" (i don't know the english term, it means that some provinces gives, in relation to their population and amount of

You should corroborate such claims. We in the west see endless tax dollars going to help programs in Quebec and the maritimes.

[.Moneen.]

All it takes for Quebec to get out of our counrty is for the right person to be in favour and brainwash them into thinking us non-french people are bad people for not recognizing them.

Personally I strongly dislike french people as they swamp my home and the streets of my town asking for directions and speaking in french I try to tell them that I do not speak much french and do not understand a word that their saying but they keep babbaling on.
Let them go it's not that big of a deal we would still be in much contact even though they're blocking my home PEI from being closer the rest of Canada. They've lost twice now and they'll go for a third and if they loose again it won't matter they'll go for another again eventully they'll will so I personally believe it's only a matter of time.


- .moneen.

[Sibtiger]

Hi everyone. Political Science major here, may be able to clear up some confusion.

First of all, there has NEVER been a referendum in Quebec over the prospect of actually becoming a seperate, autonomous state. The two referenda that have taken place on the issue have been very vague and wishy-washy in an attempt to get as many people as possible to vote "yes", since the PQ always knew that most Quebecois don't actually want to separate from Canada.

The first one asked for a mandate on attempting to begin negotiations with the rest of Canada on something they called "sovereignty-association"- basically, it was a higher degree of political autonomy from Ottawa, but everything else would be the same- Quebeckers would still use the Canadian dollar, Canadian passports, etc. This failed by a 60-40 margin.

The second, 1995 referendum, also had a rather unclear question and implications of a "yes" vote- again, it stated a close tie with Canada would remain. It was defeated by a vote of 50.6% to 49.4%, so it was quite close. Afterwards, the Supreme Court was asked if Quebec had a legal right to seperate from Canada. The answer, known as the Quebec Secession Reference Case, said that there was no way in either the constitution nor in international law that Quebec could legally seperate. However it also said that if a clear majority of Quebeckers expressed a desire to do so, there was an obligation to the rest of Canada to negotiate them. Cretien then introduced the Clarity Act, which stated that if Quebec wants to secede, they have to ask a clear question (IE Do you want Quebec to seperate from Canada?) and it had to have a clear majority- most likely indicating that 50%+1 was not enough.

As to this current development, it's mostly a symbolic gesture, and seems to have been the only course of action Harper had to counter the Bloc. It's not as big a deal as people are making it out to be- in fact, Cretien passed a similar movement (recognizing Quebec as a distinct society) that had virtually no legal consequences.

As for Quebec's viability as a sovereign nation, it's mostly an anachronistic question. It's not going to happen.

Due to such things as "déséquilibre fiscal" (i don't know the english term, it means that some provinces gives, in relation to their population and amount of resources more money, or receive less than another province), it has been proven by Economists from McGill University and "Université du Québec à Montréal" that if Quebec would separate tomorrow (well the tomorrow was something like 9 months ago), within 5 years it would have 17 G$CDN more than they would 5 years from now if they stayed, because that's the amount that would be given to Canada, an amount that they redistribute among the other provinces.

I believe the term is "fiscal imbalance" and I question your source- people can get very dicey with stuff like this. I have a counter right in front of me from two Calgary economists who concluded that between 1961 and 1992 Quebec got $168 billion more from Federal spending than it contributed to Ottawa. Without question, Quebec overall gets the most equalization money of all the provinces by a significant amount- it gets almost as much as the next 4 provinces combined. Of course this is largely because it has a much higher population, but the fact remains it RECIEVES equalization, not the other way around. Even now it usually gets about $4 billion a year in equalization.

Not to mention $17,000 is pretty much squat over 5 years, and who knows what the economic backlash of seperation would be.

And now to just pick at everyone's points because I'm done school and am bored.

Agreed. Quebec demands that everything in Canada must be presented in french as well as english. If you want to ship a product to be sold in Canada from the states then you need french on the label. Wonder why it takes so long for the flight safety demo at the start of every flight in Canada? Thats Quebec's fault. Many government jobs require that you know french for no real reason. This costs Canada millions of dollars every year.

Well, actually it's Pierre Trudeau's fault. He's the one who instituted official bilingualism. Sure it was done as a response to Quebec, but they didn't ask for it. Technically if they separated we would still be officially bilingual.

And really. Poor you. You have to wait an extra 2 minutes when your plane takes off, and sometimes you buy something and have to TURN IT AROUND to read the label. So hard done by you are by the French. And you think people who work in the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT have to be able to speak french for "no real reason"? Over 10% of the country's population speaks french. Don't you think its a good idea that when they talk to the government, people understand them?

I swear, most people with thoughts like this are just bitter about having to learn french in high school.

But they are not the slightest bit grateful. They think they can make it on their own without the rest of Canada. They want separate from Canada while still using our postal system and currency.

An epic mischaracterization. A vocal minority of Quebeckers want this, but nothing more. Most just want to be recognized as unique, which, when you get down to it, they are.

As far as politics go, Quebec has a large amount of power because they control so many seats in the house. We do not have an elected senate like you americans, so even though most of the country's tax dollars come from Alberta, the power still sits in the east.

I have no idea how the senate being unelected is related to the power of the east. The senate has very little to do with lawmaking.

And yes, Quebec and Ontario do have a lot more seats than the provinces in the west. But representation in the house is by POPULATION, not economic performance. Suprise surprise, Ontario and Quebec have the highest populations. In fact, Ontario has fewer seats than it should when you factor in how much higher its population is.

And saying that "most" of the country's tax dollars come from Alberta is a statement so overflowing with chutzpa I could plotz.

[Striking Dragon]

@ Einsteinmonkey - Do you have a link to the McGill study? I think when most people advance the "whining money drain" argument they're thinking about the equalization payments Quebec recieves, though they are not thought of as a have-not province.

@ Wisetsm - It also costs money to print government documents in English, I suppose you are against that as well? There have been some pretty outlandish proposals for a sovereign Quebec with a 'unique' relationship with Canada. I do not think it is useful to talk in "they" want to use "our" terms, Quebec is not one uniform mass

@ Moneen - I'm sure the feeling is mutual. Also, a sovereign Quebec would probably make it harder (if anything) for you to reach the rest of 'English' Canada.

@ Sibtiger - Also a Poli Sci student . I'm guessing "$17G" is not an english term, and means billions. Even millions would be an insignificant amount, and thousands is just off of the map.



Anyways, what does everyone think the difference between a multicultural state and a multinational state is?