While I would probably have done the same thing, I would have come cleaned quickly afterwards to clarify it was just a joke and then proceeded to move on. Cubus, on the other hand, is just repeating over and over that he did something good and helpful, but always fails to justify it, and when asked to do it, he gives an inappropriate or evasive answer, or even doesn't answer at all. Which is scummy, IMO.
I agree that Cubus' responses haven't been especially satisfactory, but I don't get the impression from them that he's trying to avoid the topic, or that he's trying to slough responsibility for his action. And while it's obvious that the town disagrees with his point of view, he has enough genuine points that I believe that he's honestly convinced of his side of the argument.
His original action is entirely justifiable from a pro-town perspective, based on the knowledge he had at the time. No, Cubus didn't handle the situation particularly well, but nothing that he did is inconsistent with what he's claimed, or is even inherently anti-town. His explanations since then have adequately explained his point of view. At this point, the only thing he's really guilty of is attracting the ire of the town for causing a distraction, but in the long run, that's a pretty minor tell, especially when you take the timeline into account, and consider how far in advance he would have had to plan his actions.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Because you blatantly mislead the town into believing you were dead.
He might of, but from his position, he did not realise that we would be dealing with things different in the lists and Xyre as a player. I believe that if these things had not have happened, what he did would of generated a lot of discussion.
B)Cubus has stated that he did this 'to generate discussion'. This is absolute rubbish. No discussion is generated by a person being dead. Beyond that, it should have been very evident to him that we never bothered to discuss this, at which point he should have come clean voluntarily. Instead, he continued with his deception until he was forced to post by the Mod.
Bolding by me. Cyan, do you not realise that almost all of the towns information comes from claims and dead people. When somebody dies, you can analise thier claim, see if what they were counters anybody else, and use that knowledge on other claims, that it might not counter. We can also see how people interacted with them, and see what people might be scum with them (If they are scum). For the rest of the quote, I guess he could of come out and said something, but I guess he might of thought some people might actually comment on it.
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Quote from hotshizzle »
<hotshizle> WINE IN FRONT OF MEAL
<hotshizle> i think
Sorry, let me clarify for you a statement that should have been ridiculously obvious to begin with. "No discussion is generated by someone randomly starting the game dead when the game starts at day and no flavor is provided to explain why they are dead".
6 days have passed since Hyram fired by my count so I doubt we'll be able to get a lynch before serge dies without it being massively rushed. Unvote Cubus
While I believe the case against Cubus has some merit, I find Wrath_of_Dog much more suspicious and I would like it if some more people gave their opinions on him. At this point we may as well just wait for serge to die before we make any decisions, but I'm going to return to Vote Wrath_of_Dog.
He's done several rather scummy things and nothing very townish:
He voted serge after serge was a dead man walking and has yet to explain that vote.
He said he was opposed to the Xyre bandwagon and 5 posts later jumps on it with only "sure, why not" as justification.
Aside from that his posts are almost contentless aside from a lurker hunt.
Read over his posts (via "Search This Thread") if you want to see for yourself.
Well if by some miracle I live I changed the target of my investigation to Cubus.
While I agree Wrath_of_Dog hasnt been particularly active, I dont feel he is worth lynching. I find it ironic that he has been going on a lurker hunt though.
A final note, while I dislike that I have been given a delayed death sentence, I actually enjoy that there seems to be a couple time related abilties to prevent standstills or long drawn out games in this set up.
It seems sort of silly to ridicule a company for marketing efforts. Of course they are going to hype upcoming products, every company on the face of the planet does it, and it works, thats why they do it. There isn't really any sense complaining about it. If you don't like the marketing, ignore it.
I never attacked SorryGuy, I only brought up suspicions and asked perfectly valid questions.
As for why I investigated Cyan, I mistakenly thought I got the results before nightfall.
Well I hope Hyram is/was lying or I have a guardian angel this game. I will be way too busy tomorrow to post. I expect a simultaneous busying of schedules most people tomorrow.
It seems sort of silly to ridicule a company for marketing efforts. Of course they are going to hype upcoming products, every company on the face of the planet does it, and it works, thats why they do it. There isn't really any sense complaining about it. If you don't like the marketing, ignore it.
I am in agreement with Carrion Pigeons. Cubus didn't handle the situation the best in hindsight, but with the role he had, it's a gambit I can see trying.
Waiting to see if the week-delayed vig kill is going to occur or not. I'll be back with more detail after that.
Hmmm, the proximity between Xyre's post here and DYH's last post in other threads, combined with the fact that he's the only person that hasn't posted yet, makes me believe that it is most likely correct that he is posting through Xyre.
It was my speculation that Cubus is a neutral precisely of that, yes, but I don't see how you would know it being a point when no value when you don't even know why Cubus was listed separately from us.
I don't think that the setup should be a consideration here. However, I think it's fair to stop and ask why Cubus would say 'I guess' in the manner in which he did in his 'death post'. If he is town, particularly town and only faking being dead, it seems to me that he would have just said 'Go Town'.
That's all you've done so far, Cubus, is respond with 'disbelief' at why people are suspicious of you. Why don't you explain it to us? Explain the following:
1)What manner of conversation would occur based off of your misleading the town into thinking that you had died? Taking into account the fact that the game started in Day.
2)Why you said 'Go town, I guess' in this fake death post instead of just 'Go town'.
3)Why you really STILL aren't participating in the game, long after the revelation that you are not actually dead. All you've done thus far is half-defend yourself. Why not give us some clear, concise thoughts on other pressing issues. There are PLENTY to choose from.
I don't exactly know, as I've said before. I was thinking of day/pregame kill, but any kind of conversation would've been good. Things like those are usually things that get a day going.
I find it hard to believe that you willfully misled the town into thinking that you were dead but 'don't exactly know' why you did so. It seems to me that you figured you could use that as a way to lurk for a couple of days, and assumed(erronously, obviously) that some blanket cliche like 'I was trying to stimulate conversation' would cover you. The question that we have to ask ourselves, as town, is WHY you would want an excuse to lurk in the first place. I can't come up with anything that is pro-town at all, because A)lurking is not pro-town and B)making an excuse to cover your own lurking signifies that you KNOW that lurking is not pro-town(thus the need to hide it) but that you did it anyway. I'm really having a hard time seeing you as promoting the town's agenda, here.
I'm not even going to answer this. You're awfully reaching here.
I'm not saying whether or not I think this was a relevant point, yet. I really didn't at first, but, your reactions thus far are starting to change my mind. I want to know why you felt the need to include the 'I guess' aspect of it at all. Surely there is SOME reasoning behind it, considering that you have to go out of your way to include that part. Also, refusing to answer doesn't help you, it only hurts you.
Whether or not it's a mountain that's been made out of a molehill(and I don't think it is) is fairly irrelevant. What is very relevant is how he has reacted to the pressure. He has not done so in a fashion that is remotely pro-town. All of his reactions cry scum. That is what matters most.
He has not done so in a fashion that is remotely pro-town. All of his reactions cry scum.
Explain, please.
I think his reactions have been pretty reasonable for a townie who is having a single one of his actions examined under an electron microscope ad nauseam. His reactions to me reflect incredible exasperation at the fact that this one action is being used as the basis for a wagon against him.
I honestly don't think the explanations for his behavior stemming from "He wanted to lurk!" hold any water. He wanted to lurk... for two days? What the hell would be the point in that? Why bother drawing attention to yourself in the first place by doing so?
I think he read his role PM and said "Cool! I start the game dead! I wonder what people will say to that?" He wasn't perpetrating a calculated deception on the town at large; if anything, it was closer to a practical joke. As it turned out, he wasn't really successful at generating useful reactions to his "death."
But I don't see how any of this adds up to him being scum, or even necessarily to him being scummy.
I dont have much time (im in class), but @Hyram....um Cubus faked a death post. That's all we can tell from that post.
The "I guess" part of it doesnt really tell us anything (i could see a townie saying that, i could see a scum saying that. It doesn't mean anything.)
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Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I fail to see why it is my responsibility to explain why he wanted to lurk. It is undeniable that he wanted to do so, and that he misled the town into thinking that he was dead in order to accomplish this. How long he lurked is absolutely, completely irrelevant. We have no idea how long he would have lurked had Xyre not ended the charade for him. You are taking the fact that he was only *able* to lurk for 2 days(because of Mod intervention) and using this to defend him. This is absurd. He created the facade that he was dead and used it to lurk as long as he could get away with it. There is no reason to believe that he was randomly going to come forward the day that Xyre exposed him, or any other day.
If what Cubus' stated is true, and he created this fake death post and lurked in order to 'generate reactions', then he was long past the point where he should have realized that this effort had failed egregiously, and come forward on his own. Everything would be different then. But that didn't happen. He came forward only because Xyre forced him to. As such, it is irrelevant that he lurked only for 2 days.
What matters is that he lurked AT ALL, considering that lurking accomplishes absolutely nothing for the town, AND that he deliberately went out of his way to deceive the town into thinking that he was dead, including the 'Go town, I guess' aspect of his post, which, IMO, no townie would ever have reason to state. Why would someone that is town not be sure which side they wanted to win?
Also, your theory that he read his role PM and acted accordingly is bunk. He did NOT start the game dead at all. Your argument is flawed. You are basing it off of a primary misconception that he 'only lurked for 2 days'. He only lurked for 2 days because the Mod wouldn't let him lurk anymore. For all we know, and based on the evidence that we have at hand, he would still be lurking had Xyre not pulled the plug on that. Before anyone even bothers to mention it, using the fact that it says in the rules that lurking won't be tolerated means absolutely nothing. Every set of rules says this, and rarely does it ever get enforced.
I freely admit that it makes no sense that he ever lurked in the first place. But it's not my place to explain why he did what he did. I simply cannot see any reason to do so that is even remotely pro-town. And no, playing a 'practical joke' on the town is not pro-town, it is easily anti-town. His play was both stupid and scummy, and it is my opinion that he performed this as scum because he received a role that he didn't know how to work with and figured the time that he could lurk would give him something to work with, and he would be able to all back on the ever-popular scum cliche 'I did it to generate discussion'.
@Cyan: I didn't ask you to explain why he lurked, I asked you to explain how "all of his reactions cry scum."
Also, Xyre stated very clearly that people had to post every couple of days or else suffer consequences. That means he couldn't have realistically planned to lurk for more than two days.
Quote from Cyan »
using the fact that it says in the rules that lurking won't be tolerated means absolutely nothing. Every set of rules says this, and rarely does it ever get enforced.
So your argument hinges on Xyre not enforcing his own rules?
Edit: I would also add that, even if you thought Xyre wasn't going to be strict about the two-day rule, there's no way he would have let Cubus lurk for weeks on end. So your point that Cubus could still be lurking now really doesn't make sense.
Xyre wouldn't let people lurk for weeks on end? Really? swinkee has posted all of 6 times since this game started, which was weeks ago, out of essentially 600 posts. I would say that people absolutely are lurking for weeks on end.
But honestly, that is kind of nitpicky, and isn't that important. My point is that you are saying that it's not scummy because he only lurked for 2 days. The reality is that he was only ALLOWED to lurk for 2 days, and every indication that we have is that he would have lurked for as long as possible, regardless of how long that may be. That is scummy, period.
And yes, his reactions have been scummy. Statements like 'I refuse to answer that' and 'you have to be f'in kidding me' are scummy. If people can simply refuse to answer the queries of the town, or can attempt to disregard them with 'statements of disbelief', no one would ever be accountable for their actions. This leads to no conversation ever taking place, and scum being able to do whatever they want and just elect to not answer. It is incumbent upon Cubus to explain WHY he did what he did, because people want him to. If he was really town, he wouldn't have a problem with this. It doesn't matter that he doesn't agree with having to explain it. You know these things, Arimnaes. I wonder why you're making me explain them.
His mis-use of the 'trying to gauge reactions' concept is also scummy. Lately, I've seen a rash of scum trying to fall back on these to defend their actions. What people seem to fail to realize is that, when someone is legitimately probing for reactions, OTHER people will realize this on their own, because of the method that things are presented with in the first place. When you are defending yourself with 'I was trying to gauge reactions', this is not acceptable. Especially in this case, when A)it would be obvious to anyone that stopped to think about it that a random person being dead on a Day-start game was not going to generate any conversation and B)even if you didn't realize that last bit, it was obvious well before Xyre forced Cubus to start posting that we weren't talking about it. If what Cubus' had said thus far was true, as soon as people blew it off(which was immediately), he should have come forward. But he didn't. If what he is saying is true, then he should be able to explain WHY he chose to continue the facade. Thus far, he has not only not explained this, he has completely ignored repeated requests by multiple people that he do so.
I honestly fail to see where you can find ANY pro-town behavior in how Cubus has acted thus far. I have already explained my take on what I think happened. He took a risk and got caught. Is it possible that he's town? Sure. But his action(s) thus far make absolutely no sense from a town perspective. However, they make plenty of sense from a scum perspective, especially someone that is inexperienced with being scum.
Lastly, as much as I hate to add this hotly debatable bit to the fray, people need to remember that today is Day 1, and we started at Day. I'm convinced that Cubus is scum. He deliberately misled the town, has repeatedly ignored requests that he explain why, still isn't participating in any other aspect of the game(no, asking Hyram when he submitted his action against Serge doesn't count), and has generally acted in an anti-town fashion. I find it unlikely that we will come up with a better day 1 lynch.
It seems sort of silly to ridicule a company for marketing efforts. Of course they are going to hype upcoming products, every company on the face of the planet does it, and it works, thats why they do it. There isn't really any sense complaining about it. If you don't like the marketing, ignore it.
It is deniable. This has been said many times already, but it seems you're too stubborn to listen. It was impossible for me to lurk. I knew the rules were going to be enforced, and I knew I couldn't possibly lurk for more than a few days even if I wanted to. What you don't seem to understand is that when I posted a fake death post (wether that's a scummy thing or not), it doesn't really work if you post immediately after it. I waited two days (I didn't want to refrain from posting any longer, and it's unlikely reactions will come after more than two days) and then, when I checked the thread again, it turned out Xyre has posted that people with one post should step up. I don't see how that has anything to so with wanting to lurk.
It obviously wasn't impossible for you to lurk, because you lurked for 2 days straight. 2 days in which almost 200 posts were made. Furthermore, if you expect us to believe that you happened to decide to start posting again right after Xyre called people out for only having 1 post. After which, your next post said:
Quote from Cubus »
Quote:
Quote from Xyre »
EDIT: Okay, all players have posted. I expect the players who only have one post, though, to pick it up.
Hmm.. No more playing dead, I guess..
To me, that makes it pretty clear and obvious that you lurked for as long as you could get away with it.
Quote from Cubus »
So you mean that every second someone not posts while he's able to, makes that person more scummy? Hell, it happens almost daily that I check a thread but do not post, because I don't have anything to add at that moment, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Time is absolutely relevant. Would you react the same if I came out with 'Actually, I'm not dead' today? I'm sure you won't, and I'm sure nobody would.
No, obviously, I am not saying that people should respond to the thread every single time they read it or else they're scummy. Stop trying to misrepresent my arguments.
And also, regardless of how long you lurked, if you had come forward and admitted deceit all on your own, yes, I would see things differently. But you didn't. You posted because Xyre specifically stated that people with 1 post(one of which was you obviously) needed to pick up the pace.
Quote from Cubus »
The rules were clear before the game started. It would've been impossible for me to lurk any longer. Comments like 'Yeah but what if Xyre..' don't make any sense, because it was already certain that Xyre was going to enforce posting, and it's obvious that even if I was trying to lurk, I wasn't expecting to get away with it for, say, a week or more.
That rule doesn't mean anything more in this game than it does every other game, just like I already said. Is Swinkee being persecuted at all? No, he's not, even though he hasn't posted in 8 days now, and his last post was only to indicate surprise that more people haven't mentioned him not posting. My guess is that you thought you could get away with it longer than you did.
Quote from Cubus »
How do you mean I only posted again because Xyre told me so? I don't agree that I was long past the point where it was obvious there wouldn't be reactions. I think two days is a reasonable amount of time to wait for reactions.
Once again, I refer you to this statement:
Quote from Cubus »
Quote:
Quote from Xyre »
EDIT: Okay, all players have posted. I expect the players who only have one post, though, to pick it up.
Hmm.. No more playing dead, I guess..
Considering your own words there, it seems fairly obvious to me that you only resumed posting because the Mod called you out. The implication therein being that you would have continued to lurk had it been possible. Also, you keep bringing up the fact that it was 2 days, presumably because 2 days is a short time period. But this is mafia. It doesn't matter that it was 2 days. It matters that there had been 120 posts in between your fake death post and your 'come clean' post. 120 posts is alot, especially early in the game. It was obvious well before you came forward that no one was reacting to your being dead, because there was nothing to react to.
Quote from Cubus »
So here you're implying I was lurking without a reason? Then how can you state that I was doing it to mislead the town in the same paragraph? I don't think, even though I wasn't telling the truth, there were no possible scenario's where the town could've suffered from the fact I posted a fake death post. Also, there's nothing to see at all in my death post. Do you really think, that if I were nontown, I would claim so? The 'I guess' has absolutely no meaning.
Please illustrate where I state that you did so 'without a reason'. I think you had a reason. I just don't think that reason was in the best interest of the town, and I don't think the reason that you're providing is with is remotely logical or valid. As for your 'defense'(if you can call it that) of your 'I guess' inclusion here, that is so much WIFOM that it's just silly. You didn't go out of your way to include that for no reason. So, instead of poorly trying to WIFOM your way out of it, why not just tell us why you included that? I'm fascinated to hear what you come up with.
Quote from Cubus »
Now you're saying I didn't start the game dead at all? Then how the hell did I end up in the 'Not Living' list without actually being killed? Ofcourse I started the game dead. Also, if you believe that I became dead by something else, you're contradicting your earlier argument saying that there was no possible speculation about someone being dead at the start of the game. Also, you keep repeating that I would still be lurking right now if Xyre didn't say that I, and others, should step up. Ofcourse these rules get enforced, nearly every game has several replacements due to people being inactive. If you really believe Xyre would allow someone to lurk this long with only one post, and if you would really believe I'd think he would, you should stop playing mafia immediately. That absolutely makes the least of sense.
First of all, you're not in a 'Not Living' list, you're in an 'Undead' list. The rest of us are in an 'unliving' list. There's a big difference. A difference that isn't actually important. However, I feel that what you're saying in this paragraph is directly in contradiction to what you've said thus far. Here, you seem to be saying that you actually were dead, but somehow came back to life later. If this were the case, then why have you said, up to this, that you posted a faked death message to 'gauge reactions'? I do believe you just got caught up in your own lie, here.
As far as lurking and replacements. You keep sitting on the lurking itself, which I assume is an attempt to strawman this argument. While it is important to note that you did lurk, considering that lurking is not pro-town, it is the least relevant factor. What matters is that, in order to lurk to begin with, you first duped the town into thinking that you were dead(in the conventional mafia sense) and would not be able to post. What also matters is WHY you would do that, when there is no pro-town reason to do so. As far as replacements for inactivity, if you look at recent history, the majority of those replacements were self-requested. But again, please stop trying to distract/derail the conversation that is occurring by bringing up things that are of no importance whatsoever.
Quote from Cubus »
So you're saying that I couldn't have had a reason, and at the same time you're saying I did give a reason. Wether you think that's a scummy cliche or not, it's the reason that I did it, and you can't say that I refrained from posting with absolutely no reason. Also, the argument I did it to gain myself a little time makes no sense at all. At the time I posted my death post, people were still semi-random posting. You yourself always say you skip the random voting phase because you think it's nonsense. Does that mean you get a scum role every game, don't know what to do with it, and thus decide to lurk a few days? I could've easily posted a semi-random post, and played along with the game.
To put it as plainly as possible, I do not believe that was the reason, because that reason makes no sense. What is scummy is you trying to fall back on that reasoning in the first place. As for the random posting stage. If you feel we were still in that stage, it should have become obvious to you that much more quickly that no one was responding to your ruse, and thus you should have come forward. Also, please don't try to use my own words against me, especially not to defend your scummy actions. When I've stated in the past that I 'skip' the random voting stage, that doesn't mean that I don't post for days on end, I simply choose not to cast random votes. You're right, you could have easily posted a semi-random vote and played along, but you didn't. You chose to first lie to the town about not being alive and then to lurk instead. The reasoning that you have provided us for why this is doesn't make sense, and the way that you presented it, combined with the fact that you lied to begin with, makes me believe that your true motives were not town-friendly.
Quote from Cubus »
Every indication that I would've lurked as long as possible?
I'd like you to state these indications, because I think there aren't any.
A)You misled the town by creating a fake death message(a message that, in and of itself, is also questionable from a town perspective)
B)Upon doing so, you lurked until the Mod specifically stated that you must keep posting.
It's pretty cut and dry, seriously.
Quote from Cubus »
You have any idea why I would refuse to answer that? Maybe because the question was absolutely ridiculous and absurd? Do you really think a scum would give him/herself away by saying 'I guess' in a death post. It's been stated many times: There is absolutely nothing to see there!
Also, you stated you found my reactions scummy already before the two posts you referred to. I'd like you to give some more reasons why you find my reactions scummy, so I can address them.
If WIFOM is the best argument that you have in your own defense, then I'd say that we're done here. Look at it from a logical perspective. There is no reason that someone that was actually town would say anything other than 'Go Town' in a death post. Are you not sure that you want the town to win? If so, why is that? If you are sure, then why would you include that to begin with. I think that either A)you were just trying to buy time, as I said, or B)you genuinely thought you were dead, and thus it didn't matter if you revealed an anti-town agenda with an 'I guess' statement. Later, via whatever means(most likely PMs with the Mod), you came to realize that this was in error, and tried to play off the death message as a facade that you used to 'generate reactions'. That is certainly better than the alternative of 'I thought I was really dead', because then the 'I Guess' aspect of that post becomes even MORE of a relevant factor.
Quote from Cubus »
So you're saying that an action that is essentially townish is scummy because scum tend to use it? That is crap logic. Scum always try to look townish by trying to act like a townie would. That means they are doing things a townie would do. That means that trying to get reactions, in essence, is a townish thing to do. You can't say that it's scummy because scum tend to use it. If you can convince me that trying to get reactions is scummy, rather than something people use to look townish, I'll concede this point, but I think your reasoning is completely wrong here.
I'm not saying that it's scummy to do things to try to generate discussion. Obviously townies do this all of the time. The difference is that it's typically not difficult to tell that they're doing it. What is scummy is taking an action that was scummy to begin with(misleading the town and then lurking) and then using this reason to try to cover it up. Like you said yourself, scum always try to look townish by trying to act like a townie would.
Quote from Cubus »
This has never been requested before. Also, you can't say that, within those two days, I could've already seen that there weren't any reactions for a long time. First of all, two days, in real-life terms, isn't a long period in a mafia game. Also, you can't expect me to check the thread every ten minutes. I consider myself quite an active player, but I can't check the thread 24-7. I think, when you make a fake death post, it's no more than reasonable to wait for two days, so you give several people the time to respond.
What has never been requested before? And yes, within those 120 posts(again, the fact that it was two days absolutely does not matter) it was abundantly obvious that no one was talking about your being dead. The logical course of action, then, would be for you to tell us that it was a ruse that didn't work. Waiting for the Mod to specifically call you out is scummy for obvious reasons.
Quote from Cubus »
I admit that I took a risk. However, do you think someone that's inexperienced with being scum would take a risk like this? I'm not saying it's necessarily contradicting, but it's just unlikely. And even though that might somehow be wifom, I don't think that taking a risk makes someone scum. I also don't see why it wouldn't make sense from a town perspective. I started the game listed as dead. That's the reason for my action, and a player of any alignment could do it, I think.
'Might somehow be WIFOM'? This argument, like the ones before them, is completely WIFOM. Furthermore, inexperienced scum are significantly more likely to take risks/gambits such as this because they don't know any better. I didn't say that taking a risk makes a person scum. I said that, in this case, I think it makes YOU scum. Instead of just saying 'I dont see why it wouldn't make sense from a town perspective', why not explain to us how it DOES make sense from a town perspective? What was the thought in your head at the time?
Quote from Cubus »
How does the fact that this is Day 1, and the fact the game started in Day make me look any more scummy? As I said before, I'm trying to give reactions to other things, but I'm spending all my posts answering the ridiculous points you bring up three times a day. I've given my opinion on the case on Xyre, the case on Hyram, the case on serge, the thing with Chimpz and Wuffles. You can't say that I haven't contributed anything. I believe I have contributed more than a lot of people in this game. Even if you find those reactions scummy, you can't deny that I made them.
Nowhere did I say that the fact that it's Day 1 and the game started in Day makes you look more scummy. Again you pitifully try to twist my words. I said that these factors affect what is an ideal lynch candidate because we have less to go off of. Don't get me wrong, I think that your actions are thoroughly scummy and you'd be a good lynch any day. But in these circumstances, a lynch that normally might not be the best lynch can still be a good lynch.
Furthermore, this is the first time that you've addressed the points that I(or anyone) brought up at a level that is even remotely acceptable.
As for as your 'interaction' regarding other issues. I'll agree that you weighed in on the 'lynch Xyre' bit, and to some extent on the Hyram wagon. But your extent of involvement in the Serge wagon was to try and discredit his claim, and your involvement in the Chimp/Wuffles fiasco has been nothing more, from what I can tell, than saying in one post that we should lynch one of them, then later saying 'I think Wuffles is scum based on gut instinct. He should claim'. How very helpful of you. Nevermind the various defeatist aspects of your posts, with statements like 'if you guys want to rush the day then so be it'. Defeatism is not pro-town. Stating we should randomly lynch one of two people without providing any reasoning why(and trying to pull a claim from one of them at the same time) is also not pro-town. Essentially, NOTHING that you have done thus far is pro-town, which is why I am convinced that you should be lynched today.
It's really not. Just because something doesn't directly harm the town doesn't mean that it's not harmful. If a discussion ensues that ends up in a townie getting lynched because of his stance in that discussion, that is still harmful to the town.
That aside, can we please stay on topic here? I'm pretty sure that we're about at the point where people will realize that I've been right about Cubus all along, and I don't really want that to fall to the wayside because of a metagame/theory discussion.
Speaking of which, Unvote Hyram, Vote Cubus. Obviously.
In fairness, I'm pretty much past the point of being willing to believe that he had good intentions, since I think he would have been able to express such by now. My only wish is that a couple more people would add their votes so that Cubus would be forced to claim, and we can at least make some progress here.
I'm pretty sure that we're about at the point where people will realize that I've been right about Cubus all along,
Quote from Cyan »
My only wish is that a couple more people would add their votes so that Cubus would be forced to claim, and we can at least make some progress here.
Exactly when did you appoint yourself town dictator and decide that your way forward is the only way forward?
If you have the votes on Cubus, then I can't stop you from pursuing this ridiculous "lead". But until those votes are on the table, will you please shake yourself out of these delusions of grandeur and realize that you are one player, with one opinion, and one vote.
Actually, I do believe that 7 people are voting for him, not just me. 7 is fairly significant, considering that half of the people in this game barely/don't qualify as actively participating. Still, you'll notice that I haven't pressed for a claim yet, because I don't think he has enough votes to warrant that. But I'm confident that this will come, especially if he keeps contradicting himself, among everything else.
If anything, the person that is in the minority here is you. Of the people that have actually weighed in on this issue, only you and Ged really seem to think that Cubus is actually innocent. We'll see what you have to say for yourself when he turns up scum.
I realize I may be in the minority. But until the majority shows up and declares that they want a claim from Cubus, I'd appreciate if you'd stop trying to manhandle everyone.
Quote from Cyan »
We'll see what you have to say for yourself when he turns up scum.
Pffft. I'm not a fan of bullying, or scare tactics for that matter.
Has the possibility you could be wrong ever crossed your mind? I'll wager it hasn't.
Edit: Also, something to consider. Regardless of whether you're right or wrong, you shouldn't be trying to drive the wagon singlehandedly. It gives scum cover from having to strongly voice their own opinions.
At first I was open to that possibility. Even early today. But at this point? No, I'm fairly confident(as much so as one can be without having actual confirmation) that I'm right, and that Cubus is scum.
And I'm not trying to bully you. What would that accomplish? I have a very good idea as to what you're doing here, but, we'll wait and see what happens.
Also, I"m not manhandling anyone. I am of my opinion. I can't force anyone else to agree with me, though I'm confident that they will. If they don't, I guess we'll move on for now.
Well, someone has to keep things going. I don't know whether or not you've checked, but, half of the players in this game are hugely inactive(less than 15 posts out of 600). If it takes me being forceful and assertive to get people to participate in SOME fashion, then, I'm fine with that.
You're all debating what exactly you're looking for from the situation, but each of you in turn takes the opportunities to swing your eyes onto serge. Each of you are secretly thinking, "Okay, he's gonna die. The question is when."
And you wait, and you keep watching him, and the men on the edges keep watching your actions, nervous with anticipation.
Serge stands up and stares at all of you in turn, just as you've done for him. "Look, it's plain to see I'm going to die, so we just need to lynch-" And, right on melodramatic cue, he grabs his chest and falls to the ground. You all dash over to him, each of you ready to see him cough his last cough--
--and he opens his eyes. "Just kidding, you bastards." You all groan and head back to your tables. But when you turn back to look at him...
...he hasn't gotten up. And you're suddenly worried again. "Stop screwing with us, ass." Cyan shouts.
And the ass doesn't stop screwing with you. Because he can't. Because he's dead. Quite the ass indeed, dying like that.
Serge, Lieutenant Marjorie O'Deuce, the Police Chief's Daughter - Town Cop/Vigilante, has died.
Mod Note: I will be out of town until late Tuesday. If a lynch is reached, feel free to continue posting, but I will not accept actions sent after the lynching vote is posted.
The "Putting That Smack Down" Vote Count
(12 to lynch) Wuffles_II
Chimpanzee
Fayul - 1 (Swinkee)
Cyan - 2 (Fayul, creampuffeater) Hyram - 2 (Cubus, Ged)
arimnaes - 1 (loran16) Cubus - 6 (Hyram, Cyan, StormBlind, Dagger, ZeDorkSlipeur, Jobie)
serge - 2 (Wuffles_II, carrion_pigeons)
Jobie - 1 (Wrath of Dog)
bertrand - 1 (Squiggler)
Wrath of Dog - 1 (Chimpanzee)
MOD NOTE: I have been going on a policy of, as long as players have posted enough to satisfy me, that's okay. And so far, not many players have been falling behind on that. But swinkee could use a prod, I think.
Serge dying doesn't change Cubus' scumminess. If anything, it makes Cubus seem more scummy since he tried to discredit Serge's claim, which we now know to be entirely truthful.
Maybe people can actually start playing again now?
MOD NOTE: I have been going on a policy of, as long as players have posted enough to satisfy me, that's okay. And so far, not many players have been falling behind on that. But swinkee could use a prod, I think.
I guess I earned it. And I meant to do the reread I promised last week, but a couple things happened: I got sick and exams hit. I figured I could deal with exams and still get along, but I could barely convince myself to do anything last weekend. I meant to say something, but that's just how lethargic I felt. So, on Friday, when I have a chance to actually do a good, long, full reread, with note-taking, I will, and make a decent, substantial, game-relevant post.
Your souls shall burn in the pits of Hell and so on. (I had two exams in the course of two hours today, and I've got an essay to finish; technically, I probably shouldn't be posting right now.)
Also, I'll Unvote because random votes are useless at this point.
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Ambivalent owner of nan's soul. Proud worshipper of TFE.
Serge dying doesn't change Cubus' scumminess. If anything, it makes Cubus seem more scummy since he tried to discredit Serge's claim, which we now know to be entirely truthful.
Because a townie could not do that?
Cyan is reaching, and reaching far. He has also changed his vote multiple times. I have seen Cyan as scum though and he seems different. He also seems off from his normal town play. When I can I am going to look further into his posts and see what I can reveal.
Sorry I was wrong on serge but I maintain he put in a very poor performance. Sorry buddy, may you rest in peace.
As much as I appreciate my point on 'Go town, I guess' being used by Cyan against Cubus, it still alarmed me somewhat that it was being used out of nowhere by someone other than me.
I still stand by my belief that Cubus should claim at the very least.
Also, now that serge has been proven to be a townie, does this automatically clear Hyram, at the very least on his claim?
@SG: Cubus tried to discredit Serge after Hyram had already stated that he submitted a kill against Serge and Serge had claimed. There is no reason for a townie to do this. There is plenty of reason, however, for a scum to do this. If they feign disbelief at the claim and someone else chimes in w/ their agreement, this could be easily be a role-tell by that person. So yes, it's possible that Cubus acted as such as town. A townie can do anything anyone else can. But his actions don't make sense as town, while they consistently make sense as scum. Nevermind the defeatism in his posts, the frequent uses of nothing but WIFOM to defend himself, the lack of explanation/defense on what reactions he thought that his theoretical fake death would bring, the lack of explanation on why he felt inclined to say 'Go town, I guess' instead of just 'Go town' in his fake death post. Etcetera. Honestly people, you don't get much scummier than Cubus has been thus far today. At the very least, he should be forced to claim so that we have something to evaluate.
I'm disappointed that apparently no one has noticed that Cubus' initially claimed to not really have been dead and was just playing for reactions, but now claims that he actually was dead at the beginning of the game. These are both statements that he made directly, but clearly, one of them cannot be true.
@Dagger: I'm not sure how cleared Hyram is, but, I don't think he's a good lead for now, or for anytime unless we have absolutely no one else to look at. He claimed a 1-Shot delayed Vig, and proved at least the delayed vig aspect of it. If some extra kills show up later, we'll have someone to look at.
I'm disappointed that apparently no one has noticed that Cubus' initially claimed to not really have been dead and was just playing for reactions, but now claims that he actually was dead at the beginning of the game. These are both statements that he made directly, but clearly, one of them cannot be true.
I noticed that part actually but I was rather distracted by my lecturer when I was typing that I forgot to put that in my previous post. In fact, that particular part stood out among his defenses as something directly contradictory to his previous posts that he was not dead. I am not sure whether it was a slip of tongue or not.
I agree that Cubus' responses haven't been especially satisfactory, but I don't get the impression from them that he's trying to avoid the topic, or that he's trying to slough responsibility for his action. And while it's obvious that the town disagrees with his point of view, he has enough genuine points that I believe that he's honestly convinced of his side of the argument.
His original action is entirely justifiable from a pro-town perspective, based on the knowledge he had at the time. No, Cubus didn't handle the situation particularly well, but nothing that he did is inconsistent with what he's claimed, or is even inherently anti-town. His explanations since then have adequately explained his point of view. At this point, the only thing he's really guilty of is attracting the ire of the town for causing a distraction, but in the long run, that's a pretty minor tell, especially when you take the timeline into account, and consider how far in advance he would have had to plan his actions.
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Bolding by me. Cyan, do you not realise that almost all of the towns information comes from claims and dead people. When somebody dies, you can analise thier claim, see if what they were counters anybody else, and use that knowledge on other claims, that it might not counter. We can also see how people interacted with them, and see what people might be scum with them (If they are scum). For the rest of the quote, I guess he could of come out and said something, but I guess he might of thought some people might actually comment on it.
Sorry, let me clarify for you a statement that should have been ridiculously obvious to begin with. "No discussion is generated by someone randomly starting the game dead when the game starts at day and no flavor is provided to explain why they are dead".
Unvote Cubus
While I believe the case against Cubus has some merit, I find Wrath_of_Dog much more suspicious and I would like it if some more people gave their opinions on him. At this point we may as well just wait for serge to die before we make any decisions, but I'm going to return to Vote Wrath_of_Dog.
3CB and 4CB5CB!-[thread=14456]The [Untitled] Avatar and Sig shop![/thread] Avatar from:[thread=25376] [Epic Graphics][/thread]
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Elegant Mafia: The Joker, Mafia MVP
He voted serge after serge was a dead man walking and has yet to explain that vote.
He said he was opposed to the Xyre bandwagon and 5 posts later jumps on it with only "sure, why not" as justification.
Aside from that his posts are almost contentless aside from a lurker hunt.
Read over his posts (via "Search This Thread") if you want to see for yourself.
3CB and 4CB5CB!While I agree Wrath_of_Dog hasnt been particularly active, I dont feel he is worth lynching. I find it ironic that he has been going on a lurker hunt though.
A final note, while I dislike that I have been given a delayed death sentence, I actually enjoy that there seems to be a couple time related abilties to prevent standstills or long drawn out games in this set up.
As for why I investigated Cyan, I mistakenly thought I got the results before nightfall.
Well I hope Hyram is/was lying or I have a guardian angel this game. I will be way too busy tomorrow to post. I expect a simultaneous busying of schedules most people tomorrow.
Waiting to see if the week-delayed vig kill is going to occur or not. I'll be back with more detail after that.
In case I'm voting, Unvote for now.
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Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Your comment on the purity of the crap is appreciated but I still stand by my thoughts even if no one else pretty much agree with me on that point.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
How can you tell my point has no value? Surely you don't know the game's settings more than I do?
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
/sarcasm
That's all you've done so far, Cubus, is respond with 'disbelief' at why people are suspicious of you. Why don't you explain it to us? Explain the following:
1)What manner of conversation would occur based off of your misleading the town into thinking that you had died? Taking into account the fact that the game started in Day.
2)Why you said 'Go town, I guess' in this fake death post instead of just 'Go town'.
3)Why you really STILL aren't participating in the game, long after the revelation that you are not actually dead. All you've done thus far is half-defend yourself. Why not give us some clear, concise thoughts on other pressing issues. There are PLENTY to choose from.
I find it hard to believe that you willfully misled the town into thinking that you were dead but 'don't exactly know' why you did so. It seems to me that you figured you could use that as a way to lurk for a couple of days, and assumed(erronously, obviously) that some blanket cliche like 'I was trying to stimulate conversation' would cover you. The question that we have to ask ourselves, as town, is WHY you would want an excuse to lurk in the first place. I can't come up with anything that is pro-town at all, because A)lurking is not pro-town and B)making an excuse to cover your own lurking signifies that you KNOW that lurking is not pro-town(thus the need to hide it) but that you did it anyway. I'm really having a hard time seeing you as promoting the town's agenda, here.
I'm not saying whether or not I think this was a relevant point, yet. I really didn't at first, but, your reactions thus far are starting to change my mind. I want to know why you felt the need to include the 'I guess' aspect of it at all. Surely there is SOME reasoning behind it, considering that you have to go out of your way to include that part. Also, refusing to answer doesn't help you, it only hurts you.
This is a legitimate question. That I think deserves an answer.
I sent my PM early in the morning, I think. I forgot to carbon copy it, but I've sent Xyre a PM asking for the time/date information etc.
I'm waiting for serge to die, so we can draw some info from his alignment.
I think his reactions have been pretty reasonable for a townie who is having a single one of his actions examined under an electron microscope ad nauseam. His reactions to me reflect incredible exasperation at the fact that this one action is being used as the basis for a wagon against him.
I honestly don't think the explanations for his behavior stemming from "He wanted to lurk!" hold any water. He wanted to lurk... for two days? What the hell would be the point in that? Why bother drawing attention to yourself in the first place by doing so?
I think he read his role PM and said "Cool! I start the game dead! I wonder what people will say to that?" He wasn't perpetrating a calculated deception on the town at large; if anything, it was closer to a practical joke. As it turned out, he wasn't really successful at generating useful reactions to his "death."
But I don't see how any of this adds up to him being scum, or even necessarily to him being scummy.
The "I guess" part of it doesnt really tell us anything (i could see a townie saying that, i could see a scum saying that. It doesn't mean anything.)
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
If what Cubus' stated is true, and he created this fake death post and lurked in order to 'generate reactions', then he was long past the point where he should have realized that this effort had failed egregiously, and come forward on his own. Everything would be different then. But that didn't happen. He came forward only because Xyre forced him to. As such, it is irrelevant that he lurked only for 2 days.
What matters is that he lurked AT ALL, considering that lurking accomplishes absolutely nothing for the town, AND that he deliberately went out of his way to deceive the town into thinking that he was dead, including the 'Go town, I guess' aspect of his post, which, IMO, no townie would ever have reason to state. Why would someone that is town not be sure which side they wanted to win?
Also, your theory that he read his role PM and acted accordingly is bunk. He did NOT start the game dead at all. Your argument is flawed. You are basing it off of a primary misconception that he 'only lurked for 2 days'. He only lurked for 2 days because the Mod wouldn't let him lurk anymore. For all we know, and based on the evidence that we have at hand, he would still be lurking had Xyre not pulled the plug on that. Before anyone even bothers to mention it, using the fact that it says in the rules that lurking won't be tolerated means absolutely nothing. Every set of rules says this, and rarely does it ever get enforced.
I freely admit that it makes no sense that he ever lurked in the first place. But it's not my place to explain why he did what he did. I simply cannot see any reason to do so that is even remotely pro-town. And no, playing a 'practical joke' on the town is not pro-town, it is easily anti-town. His play was both stupid and scummy, and it is my opinion that he performed this as scum because he received a role that he didn't know how to work with and figured the time that he could lurk would give him something to work with, and he would be able to all back on the ever-popular scum cliche 'I did it to generate discussion'.
Also, Xyre stated very clearly that people had to post every couple of days or else suffer consequences. That means he couldn't have realistically planned to lurk for more than two days.
So your argument hinges on Xyre not enforcing his own rules?
But honestly, that is kind of nitpicky, and isn't that important. My point is that you are saying that it's not scummy because he only lurked for 2 days. The reality is that he was only ALLOWED to lurk for 2 days, and every indication that we have is that he would have lurked for as long as possible, regardless of how long that may be. That is scummy, period.
And yes, his reactions have been scummy. Statements like 'I refuse to answer that' and 'you have to be f'in kidding me' are scummy. If people can simply refuse to answer the queries of the town, or can attempt to disregard them with 'statements of disbelief', no one would ever be accountable for their actions. This leads to no conversation ever taking place, and scum being able to do whatever they want and just elect to not answer. It is incumbent upon Cubus to explain WHY he did what he did, because people want him to. If he was really town, he wouldn't have a problem with this. It doesn't matter that he doesn't agree with having to explain it. You know these things, Arimnaes. I wonder why you're making me explain them.
His mis-use of the 'trying to gauge reactions' concept is also scummy. Lately, I've seen a rash of scum trying to fall back on these to defend their actions. What people seem to fail to realize is that, when someone is legitimately probing for reactions, OTHER people will realize this on their own, because of the method that things are presented with in the first place. When you are defending yourself with 'I was trying to gauge reactions', this is not acceptable. Especially in this case, when A)it would be obvious to anyone that stopped to think about it that a random person being dead on a Day-start game was not going to generate any conversation and B)even if you didn't realize that last bit, it was obvious well before Xyre forced Cubus to start posting that we weren't talking about it. If what Cubus' had said thus far was true, as soon as people blew it off(which was immediately), he should have come forward. But he didn't. If what he is saying is true, then he should be able to explain WHY he chose to continue the facade. Thus far, he has not only not explained this, he has completely ignored repeated requests by multiple people that he do so.
I honestly fail to see where you can find ANY pro-town behavior in how Cubus has acted thus far. I have already explained my take on what I think happened. He took a risk and got caught. Is it possible that he's town? Sure. But his action(s) thus far make absolutely no sense from a town perspective. However, they make plenty of sense from a scum perspective, especially someone that is inexperienced with being scum.
Lastly, as much as I hate to add this hotly debatable bit to the fray, people need to remember that today is Day 1, and we started at Day. I'm convinced that Cubus is scum. He deliberately misled the town, has repeatedly ignored requests that he explain why, still isn't participating in any other aspect of the game(no, asking Hyram when he submitted his action against Serge doesn't count), and has generally acted in an anti-town fashion. I find it unlikely that we will come up with a better day 1 lynch.
Go town.
It obviously wasn't impossible for you to lurk, because you lurked for 2 days straight. 2 days in which almost 200 posts were made. Furthermore, if you expect us to believe that you happened to decide to start posting again right after Xyre called people out for only having 1 post. After which, your next post said:
To me, that makes it pretty clear and obvious that you lurked for as long as you could get away with it.
No, obviously, I am not saying that people should respond to the thread every single time they read it or else they're scummy. Stop trying to misrepresent my arguments.
And also, regardless of how long you lurked, if you had come forward and admitted deceit all on your own, yes, I would see things differently. But you didn't. You posted because Xyre specifically stated that people with 1 post(one of which was you obviously) needed to pick up the pace.
That rule doesn't mean anything more in this game than it does every other game, just like I already said. Is Swinkee being persecuted at all? No, he's not, even though he hasn't posted in 8 days now, and his last post was only to indicate surprise that more people haven't mentioned him not posting. My guess is that you thought you could get away with it longer than you did.
Once again, I refer you to this statement:
Considering your own words there, it seems fairly obvious to me that you only resumed posting because the Mod called you out. The implication therein being that you would have continued to lurk had it been possible. Also, you keep bringing up the fact that it was 2 days, presumably because 2 days is a short time period. But this is mafia. It doesn't matter that it was 2 days. It matters that there had been 120 posts in between your fake death post and your 'come clean' post. 120 posts is alot, especially early in the game. It was obvious well before you came forward that no one was reacting to your being dead, because there was nothing to react to.
Please illustrate where I state that you did so 'without a reason'. I think you had a reason. I just don't think that reason was in the best interest of the town, and I don't think the reason that you're providing is with is remotely logical or valid. As for your 'defense'(if you can call it that) of your 'I guess' inclusion here, that is so much WIFOM that it's just silly. You didn't go out of your way to include that for no reason. So, instead of poorly trying to WIFOM your way out of it, why not just tell us why you included that? I'm fascinated to hear what you come up with.
First of all, you're not in a 'Not Living' list, you're in an 'Undead' list. The rest of us are in an 'unliving' list. There's a big difference. A difference that isn't actually important. However, I feel that what you're saying in this paragraph is directly in contradiction to what you've said thus far. Here, you seem to be saying that you actually were dead, but somehow came back to life later. If this were the case, then why have you said, up to this, that you posted a faked death message to 'gauge reactions'? I do believe you just got caught up in your own lie, here.
As far as lurking and replacements. You keep sitting on the lurking itself, which I assume is an attempt to strawman this argument. While it is important to note that you did lurk, considering that lurking is not pro-town, it is the least relevant factor. What matters is that, in order to lurk to begin with, you first duped the town into thinking that you were dead(in the conventional mafia sense) and would not be able to post. What also matters is WHY you would do that, when there is no pro-town reason to do so. As far as replacements for inactivity, if you look at recent history, the majority of those replacements were self-requested. But again, please stop trying to distract/derail the conversation that is occurring by bringing up things that are of no importance whatsoever.
To put it as plainly as possible, I do not believe that was the reason, because that reason makes no sense. What is scummy is you trying to fall back on that reasoning in the first place. As for the random posting stage. If you feel we were still in that stage, it should have become obvious to you that much more quickly that no one was responding to your ruse, and thus you should have come forward. Also, please don't try to use my own words against me, especially not to defend your scummy actions. When I've stated in the past that I 'skip' the random voting stage, that doesn't mean that I don't post for days on end, I simply choose not to cast random votes. You're right, you could have easily posted a semi-random vote and played along, but you didn't. You chose to first lie to the town about not being alive and then to lurk instead. The reasoning that you have provided us for why this is doesn't make sense, and the way that you presented it, combined with the fact that you lied to begin with, makes me believe that your true motives were not town-friendly.
A)You misled the town by creating a fake death message(a message that, in and of itself, is also questionable from a town perspective)
B)Upon doing so, you lurked until the Mod specifically stated that you must keep posting.
It's pretty cut and dry, seriously.
If WIFOM is the best argument that you have in your own defense, then I'd say that we're done here. Look at it from a logical perspective. There is no reason that someone that was actually town would say anything other than 'Go Town' in a death post. Are you not sure that you want the town to win? If so, why is that? If you are sure, then why would you include that to begin with. I think that either A)you were just trying to buy time, as I said, or B)you genuinely thought you were dead, and thus it didn't matter if you revealed an anti-town agenda with an 'I guess' statement. Later, via whatever means(most likely PMs with the Mod), you came to realize that this was in error, and tried to play off the death message as a facade that you used to 'generate reactions'. That is certainly better than the alternative of 'I thought I was really dead', because then the 'I Guess' aspect of that post becomes even MORE of a relevant factor.
I'm not saying that it's scummy to do things to try to generate discussion. Obviously townies do this all of the time. The difference is that it's typically not difficult to tell that they're doing it. What is scummy is taking an action that was scummy to begin with(misleading the town and then lurking) and then using this reason to try to cover it up. Like you said yourself, scum always try to look townish by trying to act like a townie would.
What has never been requested before? And yes, within those 120 posts(again, the fact that it was two days absolutely does not matter) it was abundantly obvious that no one was talking about your being dead. The logical course of action, then, would be for you to tell us that it was a ruse that didn't work. Waiting for the Mod to specifically call you out is scummy for obvious reasons.
'Might somehow be WIFOM'? This argument, like the ones before them, is completely WIFOM. Furthermore, inexperienced scum are significantly more likely to take risks/gambits such as this because they don't know any better. I didn't say that taking a risk makes a person scum. I said that, in this case, I think it makes YOU scum. Instead of just saying 'I dont see why it wouldn't make sense from a town perspective', why not explain to us how it DOES make sense from a town perspective? What was the thought in your head at the time?
Nowhere did I say that the fact that it's Day 1 and the game started in Day makes you look more scummy. Again you pitifully try to twist my words. I said that these factors affect what is an ideal lynch candidate because we have less to go off of. Don't get me wrong, I think that your actions are thoroughly scummy and you'd be a good lynch any day. But in these circumstances, a lynch that normally might not be the best lynch can still be a good lynch.
Furthermore, this is the first time that you've addressed the points that I(or anyone) brought up at a level that is even remotely acceptable.
As for as your 'interaction' regarding other issues. I'll agree that you weighed in on the 'lynch Xyre' bit, and to some extent on the Hyram wagon. But your extent of involvement in the Serge wagon was to try and discredit his claim, and your involvement in the Chimp/Wuffles fiasco has been nothing more, from what I can tell, than saying in one post that we should lynch one of them, then later saying 'I think Wuffles is scum based on gut instinct. He should claim'. How very helpful of you. Nevermind the various defeatist aspects of your posts, with statements like 'if you guys want to rush the day then so be it'. Defeatism is not pro-town. Stating we should randomly lynch one of two people without providing any reasoning why(and trying to pull a claim from one of them at the same time) is also not pro-town. Essentially, NOTHING that you have done thus far is pro-town, which is why I am convinced that you should be lynched today.
That's blatantly false, by the way.
That aside, can we please stay on topic here? I'm pretty sure that we're about at the point where people will realize that I've been right about Cubus all along, and I don't really want that to fall to the wayside because of a metagame/theory discussion.
Speaking of which, Unvote Hyram, Vote Cubus. Obviously.
If you have the votes on Cubus, then I can't stop you from pursuing this ridiculous "lead". But until those votes are on the table, will you please shake yourself out of these delusions of grandeur and realize that you are one player, with one opinion, and one vote.
If anything, the person that is in the minority here is you. Of the people that have actually weighed in on this issue, only you and Ged really seem to think that Cubus is actually innocent. We'll see what you have to say for yourself when he turns up scum.
Pffft. I'm not a fan of bullying, or scare tactics for that matter.
Has the possibility you could be wrong ever crossed your mind? I'll wager it hasn't.
And I'm not trying to bully you. What would that accomplish? I have a very good idea as to what you're doing here, but, we'll wait and see what happens.
Also, I"m not manhandling anyone. I am of my opinion. I can't force anyone else to agree with me, though I'm confident that they will. If they don't, I guess we'll move on for now.
Well, someone has to keep things going. I don't know whether or not you've checked, but, half of the players in this game are hugely inactive(less than 15 posts out of 600). If it takes me being forceful and assertive to get people to participate in SOME fashion, then, I'm fine with that.
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
And you wait, and you keep watching him, and the men on the edges keep watching your actions, nervous with anticipation.
Serge stands up and stares at all of you in turn, just as you've done for him. "Look, it's plain to see I'm going to die, so we just need to lynch-" And, right on melodramatic cue, he grabs his chest and falls to the ground. You all dash over to him, each of you ready to see him cough his last cough--
--and he opens his eyes. "Just kidding, you bastards." You all groan and head back to your tables. But when you turn back to look at him...
...he hasn't gotten up. And you're suddenly worried again. "Stop screwing with us, ass." Cyan shouts.
And the ass doesn't stop screwing with you. Because he can't. Because he's dead. Quite the ass indeed, dying like that.
Serge, Lieutenant Marjorie O'Deuce, the Police Chief's Daughter - Town Cop/Vigilante, has died.
Continue.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
(12 to lynch)
Wuffles_II
Chimpanzee
Fayul - 1 (Swinkee)
Cyan - 2 (Fayul, creampuffeater)
Hyram - 2 (Cubus, Ged)
arimnaes - 1 (loran16)
Cubus - 6 (Hyram, Cyan, StormBlind, Dagger, ZeDorkSlipeur, Jobie)
serge - 2 (Wuffles_II, carrion_pigeons)
Jobie - 1 (Wrath of Dog)
bertrand - 1 (Squiggler)
Wrath of Dog - 1 (Chimpanzee)
MOD NOTE: I have been going on a policy of, as long as players have posted enough to satisfy me, that's okay. And so far, not many players have been falling behind on that. But swinkee could use a prod, I think.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Now what?
_______________________________
[L1 Judge|Add me to your ignore list]
|Molten Sentry count - 1002 (34*)|
Maybe people can actually start playing again now?
I guess I earned it. And I meant to do the reread I promised last week, but a couple things happened: I got sick and exams hit. I figured I could deal with exams and still get along, but I could barely convince myself to do anything last weekend. I meant to say something, but that's just how lethargic I felt. So, on Friday, when I have a chance to actually do a good, long, full reread, with note-taking, I will, and make a decent, substantial, game-relevant post.
Your souls shall burn in the pits of Hell and so on. (I had two exams in the course of two hours today, and I've got an essay to finish; technically, I probably shouldn't be posting right now.)
Also, I'll Unvote because random votes are useless at this point.
Proud worshipper of TFE.
Because a townie could not do that?
Cyan is reaching, and reaching far. He has also changed his vote multiple times. I have seen Cyan as scum though and he seems different. He also seems off from his normal town play. When I can I am going to look further into his posts and see what I can reveal.
Sorry I was wrong on serge but I maintain he put in a very poor performance. Sorry buddy, may you rest in peace.
I still stand by my belief that Cubus should claim at the very least.
Also, now that serge has been proven to be a townie, does this automatically clear Hyram, at the very least on his claim?
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
I'm disappointed that apparently no one has noticed that Cubus' initially claimed to not really have been dead and was just playing for reactions, but now claims that he actually was dead at the beginning of the game. These are both statements that he made directly, but clearly, one of them cannot be true.
@Dagger: I'm not sure how cleared Hyram is, but, I don't think he's a good lead for now, or for anytime unless we have absolutely no one else to look at. He claimed a 1-Shot delayed Vig, and proved at least the delayed vig aspect of it. If some extra kills show up later, we'll have someone to look at.
I noticed that part actually but I was rather distracted by my lecturer when I was typing that I forgot to put that in my previous post. In fact, that particular part stood out among his defenses as something directly contradictory to his previous posts that he was not dead. I am not sure whether it was a slip of tongue or not.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15