If you'd like to know the whole story, please give me a few minutes of your time to "hear me out."
Dear members of the MTG Salvation Forum and of the Legacy community,
Almost three years ago I made a deck with Defense of the Heart, Forbidden Orchard, Brand, Varchild's War-Riders, Gilded Drake, Isochron Scepter, and 2 Tel-Jilad Stylus.
A few months later, after the release of Ravnica's hunted creatures, many recognized that only a few of them were printed cheap enough to be powerful. I realized that the Stylus card I had been slowly phasing out of the old Brand deck was suddenly a cool combo with the black Hunted creature because it could be played turn 1, with Hunted Horror following it on turn 2. I built a black/red deck with Brand and Tel-Jilad Stylus, which I posted on MtG News to much criticism. (Naturally, as it was a horrible deck.) I was picked on by BlueMage and MD himself (ironically, MD later aided me); they had an agenda that this “noob with his Horror deck” be snuffed out, forced to understand that he couldn’t possibly beat Goblins. “MY IDEAZ R GUD”
Fast forward two years, and after DarkPriestCyric suggested I play a blue/black version, I realized that Gilded Drake was the most important Rule-216.1 card in the game. And so continued the production of “Vile Horror.”
I created more threads, looking for suggestions. I figured that the more people putting their heads together, the more ideas could be discussed... but I had no idea how far it would go; in fact, I didn't even know that the concept could become good through modifications and development. (I would like to thank those who were there with me along the way, with suggestions and continuous support.)
Once I realized that nearly any deck-concept’s strength could be improved by hard work and patience, I continued working on it more diligently than ever: thousands of variations and versions, hundreds of decklists, the thread becoming almost a press release. Hypnotized by attention and post count, I wanted to be like Stephen Menendian, Jack Elgin, Eldariel, and Gearheart. I saw that, in their cases, hard work did pay off, and was excited to think that this card game would be an area of life in which this idea was finally true. In fact, I did receive quite a few compliments and friendly interchanges which motivated me to continue, yet, at the same time, becoming a pseudo-celebrity was the most foolish thing I could attempted, and I wish I had never somewhat-desired it.
I had no idea what I was getting myself into. Recently, someone actually approached me at a tournament and knew me by name and face. He asked me where I lived and I casually answered, making conversation. In between rounds he cheered me on, over-complemented me and watched my matches closely, telling me he wished he had played my deck, being a long time lurker of my "Vee Aych" thread. Later in the tournament, he actually approached a kid my age and asked him what he was doing later and if he wanted to "hang out.” Needless to say, the poor teenager was quite put-off and quickly stepped away. I drove home alone and looked in my back seat before I started my car. I have gotten to a point to where I cannot bear to hear the abbreviation "Vee Aych" in place of a cute name I had thought up for what was originally my take on the concept of Rule 216.1 Hunted Horror.
Unlike team EPIC, I didn't realize that the concept of tech (although it's stupid to use this word seriously) involves not “spoiling it.” Rather, I could not achieve a balance between a group large enough to gather many ideas and a group small enough to keep it a secret, its rogue element a surprise, and to not spoil the deck. (Interestingly, also unlike team EPIC, I don't simply chose cards from a CUBE of "good cards" but rather cards that can work well together even if I haven't seen them before, so the concept was a bit slower to catch on.)
At first, I did ask for people to play it. I was ignorant of what that would, in the end, entail. I never meant for my deck to go the route that Finn's do. I do not want 450 people playing my own "Death and Taxes," only knowing it by name, but not knowing how, by whom, how long, nor why the deck was developed. You know you've hit success in life when you write articles every Friday like Mike Flores (or update a thread every day like me) about a children’s trading card game. How did I imagine I would receive credit for making a deck if I wasn't even present at the location in which it was played?
The way things unfolded certainly applies in many other situations within Magic (e.g. Flores and Karsten putting their names on some things they didn’t even create, Standard players netdecking without remorse because it is the common and accepted thing to do, and people flocking to Finn’s decks not bothering to use the brains of their own) but especially in life as well. As I discussed earlier, I believe that it is simply human nature to repeat this process.
I believe that, if it were not for amount of recognition that Evan Erwin gets, he would be definitely wasting his life, rather than most likely wasting his life on interviews and discussions that rotation obsoletes. Additionally, moderators of forums get no recognition for their efforts, so what is their motivation?
A month ago, my best friend (who had spent 2 years letting me annoy him constantly for playtesting with the Hunted Horror deck that was becoming bland from how often we played) called me on his cell phone from the University of Michigan. He had finally found someone to play Legacy with after two weeks of searching for anyone who played Magic: the Gathering over there. They sat down for a game and it turns out this person was not only playing my deck, but was also a member of the forum who had popped up only a week beforehand. Brent Traut (btraut) declined to talk to me on the phone, even though I was excited to talk to him. Why would he want to talk to a stranger? Well, considering he knew me from the forums, I figured it would be nice to at least talk on that subject. Instead, once speaking on the phone, he wouldn’t give me the time of day and quickly got back to their game… with my deck.
I explored Brent Traut's website "www.btraut.com" and realized that someone who could so easily and guiltlessly call my work his own (by changing a few cards) also shared my college major, my skill set (“www.stephenjudd.com”), and my geographical location. I was flung into a depression upon realizing that it is nearly impossible to make even the smallest difference in this world or especially to attempt to be unique – and that even if it could be possible, that your work may simply not be recognized.
Van Gogh is an excellent example of this. Similarly, everyone doubted me (“this deck sucks, prove why it is good, have you even won”) up until the moment that they didn’t – which is the exact point at which I no longer received credit for the idea. Also at this point, what I thought was “my goal” was finally accomplished, and in any case, has since then begun to deteriorate. There is almost no new discussion other than “how do I play/netdeck this for my own benefit, as I am too lazy to read 58+ pages of your work” in the thread, and after tournaments, I am casually mentioned as just another opponent. I finally can no longer kindly say that, in my experience, white is not needed, Trinket Mage is unnecessary, that Oblation is not worth it, that Sage of Epityr is strong in this deck, that Brand isn’t my play style, etc. etc. etc. I am not trying to hamper innovation, but simply, if you can’t learn from the experiences of others, you will be repeating “history’s” mistakes.
Therefore, I will not be posting further discussion on any Magic: the Gathering forum, though I will continue to develop it in real life in the way I originally had, for the last two years: diligently by myself and with my close friends.
It is better to do this now than to see it not long from now brought up in a Magicthegathering.com Wizard's article, casually mentioning the deck for 2 seconds ("it looks interesting, but we would replace the Sage with Force of Will", etc.), with Levy/Osyp/Szliefer/etc.'s name on it. It's not that far of a stretch, as it's happened before. By doing this now, I will also attempt to prevent the further spread of how the deck works, in order to preserve the ideas for the surprise factor in future tournaments. At that point, you may indeed finally hear that VH1. In the meantime, we all will have a bit more free time not spent on this thread’s maintenance and continuance.
And if the end result of the unfolding of these events in general or of composing this (now) essay did nothing but to show that it is possible in life to reverse a troubled situation, or that it is worth attempting to be a freethinking individual, or even simply to identify a problem when one exists, then it was all worth it.
So, whether or not you agree with me or this decision, I am respectfully asking that you would please refrain from working with this concept, especially without crediting the original source (the information I have gathered while building/playing/theorizing with this concept).
Thank you for everything over the years, MTG Salvation.
-Stephen Judd
Isamaru regrets releasing the deck to the public because he realizes he doesn't care about having his name tossed around all the time like menedian, flores, etc. He wants the deck to have more of a surprise factor, because he thinks that would make it stronger. He is also annoyed at people re-suggesting the exact same ideas over and over again, in the same thread. If you disagree with a card that is left out that you think should be in so be it, but don't bring it up for the same reasons that the last 3 people did, when they all got shot down. Especially when you can't back it up with a reason other than black = duress, or blue = brainstorm and force. The thread was really going nowhere so why would he continue discussion of it when a lot of the important discussion happens off the thread? The thread is still open and people can now take it in whatever direction they feel is best, Isamaru just won't be involved in it anymore. This might even lead to the deck on the forum evolving so far away from his version that he will get back an element of surprise. Also all of this discussion about net-decking is ********. Everyone has gone over it a million times and the people that don't like it just don't like it. It doesn't matter since your not changing anyones viewpoint and it just derails the thread like crazy.
So in summary, repeatedly telling people the same thing gets old and no development is happening in the thread so there is no reason for him to leave it open. AND he is hoping that random child molesters at tourneys won't recognize him or his deck anymore Also please if you feel like whining about/defending net-deckers go open a thread in the right place.
While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
I cannot say I know the feeling of having a deck simply stolen, or anything like that, but I can imagine how it would feel. It's sad to see someone go because of it.
I don't mean to be rude and I don't mean to make any judgments (and maybe I'm just not long for these boards), but WHAT?!?!?
I'm not taking anything away from a deck's creator - don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for guys willing to test their own ideas into the ground to find what works. I have even more respect for the fact that a lot of people spend good money, not just on cards, but on travel and entry fees to play their own creations. I find it more admirable in a format like Legacy simply because the tournaments are few and far between.
But, really, it is a game. A game, folks. And beyond that, you (not pointing a finger at anyone) are never going to be bigger than that simply because without the game - innovation (and innovators) does not exist. Even with the multitudes of cards available to us in Legacy - there is a finite combination of possibilities. Being first to resolve one of those combinations of 60 cards into a good deck, while being an accomplishment, is not anything novel. It has been happening since the game's inception. We aren't going to credit new creators for Threshold because somebody quickly posts a list with Ponder, or a Deadguy list with Thoughtseize. I play a ton of games with 'novel' decks on MWS and get comments like 'I have a deck like that' or 'my buddy tried to make that work'.
And these forums are littered with comments just like that. But when you post here, you have made a decision - that you want help to make your deck better, that you do want more people to learn and test your creation, and that you are willing to listen to criticism and suggestion. The consequence of this action is that everyone reading now has the opportunity to use your information and hard work to their own ends - and that's, unfortunately maybe, NOT a bad thing. I'm by no means suggesting that people should take credit for something that isn't theirs, but really - if you are the first to play a deck in your playgroup, they will usually attribute the deck to you no matter where you found it - it becomes Larry's deck, Chris' deck, Mike's deck, whatever.
But that's explicitly HOW you improve deck design - you get people to take ownership of the idea; you get people to invest themselves into the deck; you get people to try all the cool and interesting ideas that you don't have time to test on your own. I mean, isn't that why you posted in the first place?
I understand that this might just be one man's opinion - but you don't get to just take your ball and go home. We're adults - period. If you choose to quit posting, playing, whatever, that doesn't (or shouldn't) affect these boards one bit. You gave this community a deck and a lot of people have taken ownership of your idea and molded it into their own version (or they've accepted your version as 'the best'). It's just selfish to think you can take that away from the community.
I would add that I used to play Despotic Scepter with Necropotence in Ice Age (hey, I was beginning back then :mad:), which is similar to the strategy of Vial-Horror : circumvent huge drawbacks like skipping your draw step or giving your opponent creatures with a cheap artifact.
Does that mean anyone using that strategy should credit me ? If Necropotence was legal, it would be in that deck after all.
In a more general manner, and although it's unlikely to be the case here, there is also the point that people discover similar decks without necessarily having heard about them before : I have jumped onto the Mongoose from day 1 and been building Threshold-type decks before they surfaced in Legacy. That doesn't mean everyone should bow to me because I was clearly not the only one to do that.
Finally, people on the internet tend to "steal" ideas all the time. I mean, Truffle Shuffle can be seen as a Rock evolution, Zilla's RG beats as an evolution of revised Kird Ape decks, let alone how HanniFish would be supposed not to come from Fish decks.
My point here is not to blame people who do so, because they put effort in developing the decks and because I don't really care who claims dibs on what. My point is that claiming ownership of a deck is just pointless and, the way I see it, lying to yourself : because someone has an idea and posts about it first on the internet doesn't mean nobody else did before, without mentioning it.
In short, and with all due respects, I think that reaction (as well as btraut's) is puerile.
In Isamru's defense, I can see where he is coming from. While I myself do not agree with all the points, I can sympathize a bit.
Essentially, unless I misread his post, he is unhappy with the fact that people are taking credit for his creation. While this is just a game of magical cards, the same kind of feelings are applicable in real life. Plagiarism, copyrights, academic honesty codes, the engineering code of honor, and so on.
That being said, Isamaru seems to be closing off one possible avenue of ideas and tech being out right taken. There is nothing wrong with that, but it does seem to be a bit childish, and possibly an overreaction.
I definitely agree that this is not solely my idea. The internet has provided a double-edged sword in that there are friends and foes, but so too in real life. *shrug*
Thank you for all the help so far, and in the years to come. I am reopening the thread (thanks YaunTi) because I did overreact a bit in that I closed it, but I feel that this issue did need to be addressed. It is better to have discussion continue there (although I may drop in less often, that should accomplish the same homework-time increase goal I had in mind) than to have new threads crop up, if possible to prevent.
While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
I definitely agree that this is not solely my idea. The internet has provided a double-edged sword in that there are friends and foes, but so too in real life. *shrug*
Thank you for all the help so far, and in the years to come. I am reopening the thread (thanks YaunTi) because I did overreact a bit in that I closed it, but I feel that this issue did need to be addressed. It is better to have discussion continue there (although I may drop in less often, that should accomplish the same homework-time increase goal I had in mind) than to have new threads crop up, if possible to prevent.
While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
Isamaru: I too know what you mean in the ways of my own Funkbrew. I've no less worked on it for 3 years and its developments have been also "Why don't you just play Truffle Shuffle?" and whatnot. Whenever I heard Vile Horror I always gave the credit to Isamaru or Stephen Judd. I mean you are the guy. You did it with help of others but most importantly you did it. It is too bad to have all the naysayers get you down. Byut I'll say this. It was good to have you around
Although I comprehend your conceptual reality on the situation of what the direction vector of how VH is going. I feel obliged to say the following two items.
First I remember one year ago taking up a deck that I thought had some potential and start playing it. I was the first deck that I ever played on MWS and I played it for about 2 months. Then I got board added the white splash and called it “The Puget Sound.” So, my first piece of business is some acknowledgment for composing “Vile Horror.”
Second is a word of chagrin for leaving. That is all I have for this… This has truly flabbergasted me. So this paragraph is short.
So SJ….. This is my only attempt for you not to leave. Remember all the bad times that the thread had. And I end the response with this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=LwZrylyu9ZI
stephen, i am sorry to hear you are going through what you were going through and i can empathize, but here me out for a few moments.
there was a game called "The Legend of the Five Rings", and i designed the deck that took the game to another level.
a friend of mine named Vu Nguyen piloted the deck at the world gen-con legend of the five ring tourney to a second place finish. he should have gotten 1st; however, it was later revealed that everyone stacked their decks so they had a CHANCE to simply beat my creation... oh yaw and vu NEVER cut anyone's deck, but he went undefeated for 2 days straight (until the last game) beating in 1 tourney all of the best players of past years.
the designers of the game were so impressed about the deck design that they went ahead and created not 1 but 2 cards after Vu AND they went ahead and created an entire alternate storyline set called "thousand years of darkness" because if my deck would have won (which it should have) it would have changed the storyline completely.
every where we went to trade for magic cards, vu was treated like a celebrity for the deck, because of the strong community for l5r. he would go out and autograph the cards they named after him such as: http://www.l5rsearch.com/images/cards/card994.jpg
people would sent him tons of chase rares for the game, and he even got a few pairs of samaurai swords just for winning with the deck. the deck wasn't JUST a great deck, in L5R it is referred to as "THE DECK".
did i feel jealous of my friend's success? sure i did. it really doesn't matter to me that i don't have my name attached to the deck nor does it matter to me that vu failed to mention my name when they interviewed him about the deck.
we both know that it was my creation, and i originally built the deck to beat everyone in my play group. you have to remember that even he opposed to playing my deck because he had his own monk deck that he loved to play; however, he knew my deck was superior.
all i have to say that's how life works. just enjoy the time you had with the deck and remember in life that there are so many things that we take for granted. all of the software that you are using just for this communication was designed by uncredited software engineers. i am sure you have no idea who invented the bricks or wood processing chemicals used to make your house. or who designed the car you drive. i could go on about it, but you get the (my) point.
VERY good point. That especially extends to Open Source programmers and... well, thousands and thousands of people throughout history. The masons of the Sistene Chapel.... and so on.
Thank you for offering me a different side of the story, Top Deck, and I am impressed and surprised to hear about L5R.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
I learned long ago that credit is something that you'll almost never get unless you take the deck to a 1st place finish or at least a top 8 of a major tourney yourself. I'm talking Grand Prix & Pro Tour level, and even then people will change 1 or 2 cards and call it their own.
I've created decks such as Prosperity Bloom, Flash, & Combo Affinity (As well as others), yet you do not see my name attached to those. Some will remember my posting about the Flash combo recently but most will remember the fact that it was just some rediculous combo that should have been banned. Flash took down Grand Prix Columbus, and my name is not linked to it, but I as well as my friends know what I released upon the legacy community. Prosperity Bloom is considered the first combo deck, as the entire deck was designed to perform the combo and win, when in reality it actually was not.
I know what I've created and there is no reason really to argue with those that doubt me. What is there to gain? The only reason to fight for recognition is to prove that you are as vain as the others. You yourself know what you created, as do a few others. What you need to do is just take appriciation in the fact that people are playing your deck, and what you have done is provide the format with a deck that can compete, even though people don't know you created it. Prosperity Bloom will never be forgotten as long as MTG is around, and I really like the thought of that, even though my name is not attached.
The whole "I want to be as famous as Stephen Menendian, Jack Elgin, Eldariel, and Gearheart" is completely overrated. I am not saying they are bad people, but the hype that surrounds them doesn't make them better. It makes them just more known. Heck, I don't even know who Eldariel is off the top of my head, so what good does it do him, or the others that I do know.
Deck ideas are not something that people should argue over. I've designed a Welder Survival deck, and that was without knowing other designs. Am I the creator of Welder Survival? Answer is Yes and No. Yes I've reached that idea on my own, but no other people have reached the same idea, but they would have the same answer to that question as well. People need to seperate their egos from their decks. Deck ideas aren't yours, someone else will reach the same point at which they come up with that idea for a deck sooner or later too.
Stephan you know you can be above all that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In Vintage (Type 1) > Budget Deck Discussion forum:
Complete_Jank, as Stephen's friend, I feel that I need to make his intentions clear.
Stephen did not do this because he wishes people would give him credit and recognition. He did this because he wishes people never had known about the deck, looking back. I think things simply got out of hand.
Also, he wrote that he thought he wanted to be like Menendian, but realized how unimportant it was. Did you read the whole paragraph?
Shock_to_your_Dome, I actually believe that the deck would in fact be better without having become so widespread. And Stephen admitted in the 'letter' that he knew that he could not actually ask people to give him credit. As expected, a lot of people really aren't understanding that he doesn't simply want recognition and credit at all times.
Complete_Jank, that is great that you created ProsBloom and HulkFlash, and I can sympathize with that, but I think you are missing his point: It's not a sense of vanity to want recognition, but that it is wrong for those who cannot possibly understand the hours of labor that went into building the deck to profit from it. Also, what recognition is there to truly be gained from such a pool of people anyway? Some of the absolute lowest people play this game, surely this does not describe all or even most of the population of players, but it is certainly no honor to have one's name tossed around by cretins who leech off of one's ideas and hard work. As Stephen wrote, he really did not want to become a celebrity. He and I realized that we need a break. In the end, keeping up with this thread is time that could have been spent doing homework and, well, being a kid. I think he just wants a break from the stress of updating the thread.
It is, however, good to see that some of you (smoky squirrel, The Descent) really do get what he was trying to say.
Stephen did not do this because he wishes people would give him credit and recognition. He did this because he wishes people never had known about the deck, looking back. I think things simply got out of hand.
People would still be talking about similar decks. UrDraco did do well with a similar design at Gencon, but with Brand. Once something is shared, it is shared. Team BHWW (Old Team BHWC) is very cautious in what we release as far as information. We have quite a lot of decks that we have tested and found to performed well, but we keep many of them off the forums because of the strength that not being known provides.
It's not a sense of vanity to want recognition, but that it is wrong for those who cannot possibly understand the hours of labor that went into building the deck to profit from it.
People who take "Tech" and use it to win or those that "Net" deck don't care who provides the knowledge to them or what it took to get that knowledge, and never will. To want recognition is to be vain, but to want it is but to be human.
Think of it like this: There is a soda machine, and soda's cost $0.25 at first. You buy them every day, but there are others that steal them from the machine. A warning that the price will be raised to $0.50 is put on the machine if people don't stop stealing. The price ultimately gets raised, and the people who steal don't care and will continue. Sooner or later you are paying $5 for a can of soda, and the thieves are still getting them for free, and signs are still being put up that the price will be raised.
In short, there are lots of creeps out there, and they don't care what it costs you as long as they get what they want. Taking away something will only mean that they will go else where for what they want, and doesn't help the people that actually pay the costs.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In Vintage (Type 1) > Budget Deck Discussion forum:
First, I'll say that there was alot I would liked to have said about the orginal post, but I'm not as good at writing my thoughts as Complete Jank(I mostly agree with him). So I'll just ask this question thats been bugging me.
What is so wrong about borrowing someone else's idea? Seriously, why do some of you think of it as almost a sin? The whole point of the deck forums is to enhance an idea by using more than just yourself and allowing people the benifit of seeing and using that idea.
Would you dismiss me as a netdecker because I play Solidarity? I also play Iggy and Ichorid.. Sometimes I play SI, or Death and Taxes, and occasionaly Red splash Thresh or Goblins. But I also play RB Madness, BWR Prison, UWG Orb lockdown, RW Geddonstorm, GR Nature's Assault, these are all decks that Iv'e built with no outside sources, most of them date back to Tempest, before I quit the first time right before Urza's block.
They might not all be good, true. But am I any less of a player because I like to play someone else's deck? Solidarity is pure genious, and I wish I had created it, but the fact that my name isn't Gearheart isn't gonna make me not play it. I respect Gearhearts work on Solidarity as much as I respect your's on Vial Horror. And yes, I've played Vial Horror on occasion as well.
I quit Yugioh because of all the immature players throwing around the terms, "Netdecker" and "Lucksack" like they were insults. I thought most magic players were above looking down on people because they enjoy playing decks that someone else made.
Sorry for this mini-rant in your thread Isamaru, but I feel that I should point out that not everyone see's things from one perspective. I don't believe in either "Unique at any cost" or "play what wins or don't bother playing at all" mottos.
After having talked with Stephen about his intentions about this quitting note, I feel that i have some stuff to say to some people here too:
Shion: There is a huge difference between netdecking from someone and claiming to be the sole inventor of the idea. The problem faced here is that Stephen, imo, really felt attacked when people started stating that Vile Horror was their creation, well knowing that it was not. In fact, he was most of the time exhuberant when somebody would pilot his deck somewhere, eventhough they didn't totally credit him. And concerning Solidarity: yes, you can play the deck without being named Gearheart, but you cannot claim ownership of the idea. You admit that someone OTHER than you was genius enough to think up the deck.
Complete_Jank: Not much to say to you in this matter, you seem to understand the motivations. On other notes:
Maybe you didn't know, but Prosbloom did have a name attached to it. I cannot remember it and so I do not know if that name was yours, but it pops up from time to time.
And Comboaffiinity? I would like to see a decklist of that or at least some linkage. I am intrigued.
(e.g. Flores and Karsten putting their names on some things they didn’t even create, Standard players netdecking without remorse because it is the common and accepted thing to do, and people flocking to Finn’s decks not bothering to use the brains of their own)
These are the type of comments I'm referring too, and they have not just appeared in this thread but strong anti "netdecking" sentiment comes up from time to time, allways justified by being "unique."
People who play decks they didn't make shouldn't be considered dumb or lazy. Thats a horrible generalization, and thats exactly the bias im talking about.
Besides, I think it's rather arrogent to assume that your deck is one of a kind in the first place. Like many have said in this thread, lots of people have similiar idea's, especially in a card game with a limited card pool.
Even if someone had seen Stephen's list and it inspired them to make a deck of their own, and due to a process of elimination come to the same conclusions on what is good in the deck and what is not. Have they then netdecked Stephen Judd's Vial Horror? Or have they made their own deck? What if the list is only a few cards different? Is it wrong for them to claim that they made the deck, because they came to the same logical conclusion's as Stephen?
Who can really say for sure if they copied? Should it even be an issue?
How much time and effort did it take those pompous guys at GP Colombus to netdeck and top 8? ABout 15 minutes to look at a decklist put the cards in the sleeves, read about how to play it and that was it. It is very generalizing to say that netdeckers are lazy and in my opinion there are, but when my teammate built Red Goblins we tested no less than 300 other goblins from different sets and whatnot and found some neat ones that nobody else uses. It's all about how much work you want to put into it.
With all due respect, Columbus is a bad example of a healthy metagame. Flash was a no brainer in that situation. Although to be fair, I doubt they would have put more effort into their deck selection if Flash hadn't been around.
But many of them still top 8ed. Playing an unfamiliar deck into the top 8 says alot about their playskill regardless of how you feel about them netdecking.
Also do realize that not everyone puts the same value on deck construction as part of the game. Many people simply don't enjoy it, so they don't do it. Being able to pick up a new deck and just play it is alot of fun for some people.
I personally Enjoy both Deck Construction, and Deck Deconstruction (picking up a deck and Disassembling it, to find its base function and method of play.) So I can see both sides of the coin. If I go to a tournament and I play Solidarity or Red Splash Thresh over one of my own decks, then it is not out of laziness, but out of an interest to see how that deck does vs. the field and how well I can play it.
Winners aren't determined by who brings the most original deck after all.
In closing, judging people with sufficient lack of any real information about them, based only on what deck they choose to play, is in a word, ignorant.
Ok, Isamaru regrets releasing the deck to the public because he realizes he doesn't care about having his name tossed around all the time like menedian, flores, etc. He wants the deck to have more of a surprise factor, because he thinks that would make it stronger. He is also annoyed at people re-suggesting the exact same ideas over and over again, in the same thread. If you disagree with a card that is left out that you think should be in so be it, but don't bring it up for the same reasons that the last 3 people did, when they all got shot down. Especially when you can't back it up with a reason other than black = duress, or blue = brainstorm and force. The thread was really going nowhere so why would he continue discussion of it when a lot of the important discussion happens off the thread? The thread is still open and people can now take it in whatever direction they feel is best, Isamaru just won't be involved in it anymore. This might even lead to the deck on the forum evolving so far away from his version that he will get back an element of surprise. Also all of this discussion about net-decking is ********. Everyone has gone over it a million times and the people that don't like it just don't like it. It doesn't matter since your not changing anyones viewpoint and it just derails the thread like crazy.
So in summary, repeatedly telling people the same thing gets old and no development is happening in the thread so there is no reason for him to leave it open. AND he is hoping that random child molesters at tourneys won't recognize him or his deck anymore Also please if you feel like whining about/defending net-deckers go open a thread in the right place.
I thought up a lot of witty and relevent things to say, but in the end I realized it wasn't worth it.
Even though I think this was blown out of proportion I will end with this. Good luck in finding what your looking for Stephen, and good luck with the deck. I hope you can eventually get things to a point where your happy with them.
SJ and I are of similar mind often so ima give my opinion.
Forget VH. Let it go where it will (you can't control this anyway). You have done plenty for it. That deck does not define you. There WILL be other ideas worth your time. VH is probably not going to be the best thing you have built when all is said and done. You are bigger than that deck.
Complete_Jank: Not much to say to you in this matter, you seem to understand the motivations. On other notes:
Maybe you didn't know, but Prosbloom did have a name attached to it. I cannot remember it and so I do not know if that name was yours, but it pops up from time to time.
And Comboaffiinity? I would like to see a decklist of that or at least some linkage. I am intrigued.
I am aware that another name was attached to the deck, that name is not mine.
I played this deck myself, but when Prosperity was printed my friend who was more interested in type 2 and not so much type 1 asked if I could make a version that he could play at his weekly tourneys. I started with 4 of each Prosperity, Cadaverous Bloom, Squandered Resources, Drain Life, & Vampiric Tutor. I then looked for another way to get more mana accel than just Squandered Resources, as I knew it wasn't enough. I found Natural Balance to work perfectly with the Resources, and filled the last few spots and gave the deck to my friend and told him not to share, but to crush the local tourney. He won the first two weeks, and then many other people started playing the deck. Did he share it? Possibly, but he said he did not, and I would believe him because building the deck from watching it going off wouldn't be that difficult, so anyone could have stolen the idea.
It isn't that the idea was unlikely for someone else to come up with, but that I was already using the engine before Prosperity, Vampiric Tutor, Squandered Resources, and Natural Balance were printed.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In Vintage (Type 1) > Budget Deck Discussion forum:
Dear members of the MTG Salvation Forum and of the Legacy community,
Almost three years ago I made a deck with Defense of the Heart, Forbidden Orchard, Brand, Varchild's War-Riders, Gilded Drake, Isochron Scepter, and 2 Tel-Jilad Stylus.
A few months later, after the release of Ravnica's hunted creatures, many recognized that only a few of them were printed cheap enough to be powerful. I realized that the Stylus card I had been slowly phasing out of the old Brand deck was suddenly a cool combo with the black Hunted creature because it could be played turn 1, with Hunted Horror following it on turn 2. I built a black/red deck with Brand and Tel-Jilad Stylus, which I posted on MtG News to much criticism. (Naturally, as it was a horrible deck.) I was picked on by BlueMage and MD himself (ironically, MD later aided me); they had an agenda that this “noob with his Horror deck” be snuffed out, forced to understand that he couldn’t possibly beat Goblins. “MY IDEAZ R GUD”
Fast forward two years, and after DarkPriestCyric suggested I play a blue/black version, I realized that Gilded Drake was the most important Rule-216.1 card in the game. And so continued the production of “Vile Horror.”
I created more threads, looking for suggestions. I figured that the more people putting their heads together, the more ideas could be discussed... but I had no idea how far it would go; in fact, I didn't even know that the concept could become good through modifications and development. (I would like to thank those who were there with me along the way, with suggestions and continuous support.)
Once I realized that nearly any deck-concept’s strength could be improved by hard work and patience, I continued working on it more diligently than ever: thousands of variations and versions, hundreds of decklists, the thread becoming almost a press release. Hypnotized by attention and post count, I wanted to be like Stephen Menendian, Jack Elgin, Eldariel, and Gearheart. I saw that, in their cases, hard work did pay off, and was excited to think that this card game would be an area of life in which this idea was finally true. In fact, I did receive quite a few compliments and friendly interchanges which motivated me to continue, yet, at the same time, becoming a pseudo-celebrity was the most foolish thing I could attempted, and I wish I had never somewhat-desired it.
I had no idea what I was getting myself into. Recently, someone actually approached me at a tournament and knew me by name and face. He asked me where I lived and I casually answered, making conversation. In between rounds he cheered me on, over-complemented me and watched my matches closely, telling me he wished he had played my deck, being a long time lurker of my "Vee Aych" thread. Later in the tournament, he actually approached a kid my age and asked him what he was doing later and if he wanted to "hang out.” Needless to say, the poor teenager was quite put-off and quickly stepped away. I drove home alone and looked in my back seat before I started my car. I have gotten to a point to where I cannot bear to hear the abbreviation "Vee Aych" in place of a cute name I had thought up for what was originally my take on the concept of Rule 216.1 Hunted Horror.
Unlike team EPIC, I didn't realize that the concept of tech (although it's stupid to use this word seriously) involves not “spoiling it.” Rather, I could not achieve a balance between a group large enough to gather many ideas and a group small enough to keep it a secret, its rogue element a surprise, and to not spoil the deck. (Interestingly, also unlike team EPIC, I don't simply chose cards from a CUBE of "good cards" but rather cards that can work well together even if I haven't seen them before, so the concept was a bit slower to catch on.)
At first, I did ask for people to play it. I was ignorant of what that would, in the end, entail. I never meant for my deck to go the route that Finn's do. I do not want 450 people playing my own "Death and Taxes," only knowing it by name, but not knowing how, by whom, how long, nor why the deck was developed. You know you've hit success in life when you write articles every Friday like Mike Flores (or update a thread every day like me) about a children’s trading card game. How did I imagine I would receive credit for making a deck if I wasn't even present at the location in which it was played?
The way things unfolded certainly applies in many other situations within Magic (e.g. Flores and Karsten putting their names on some things they didn’t even create, Standard players netdecking without remorse because it is the common and accepted thing to do, and people flocking to Finn’s decks not bothering to use the brains of their own) but especially in life as well. As I discussed earlier, I believe that it is simply human nature to repeat this process.
I believe that, if it were not for amount of recognition that Evan Erwin gets, he would be definitely wasting his life, rather than most likely wasting his life on interviews and discussions that rotation obsoletes. Additionally, moderators of forums get no recognition for their efforts, so what is their motivation?
A month ago, my best friend (who had spent 2 years letting me annoy him constantly for playtesting with the Hunted Horror deck that was becoming bland from how often we played) called me on his cell phone from the University of Michigan. He had finally found someone to play Legacy with after two weeks of searching for anyone who played Magic: the Gathering over there. They sat down for a game and it turns out this person was not only playing my deck, but was also a member of the forum who had popped up only a week beforehand. Brent Traut (btraut) declined to talk to me on the phone, even though I was excited to talk to him. Why would he want to talk to a stranger? Well, considering he knew me from the forums, I figured it would be nice to at least talk on that subject. Instead, once speaking on the phone, he wouldn’t give me the time of day and quickly got back to their game… with my deck.
I explored Brent Traut's website "www.btraut.com" and realized that someone who could so easily and guiltlessly call my work his own (by changing a few cards) also shared my college major, my skill set (“www.stephenjudd.com”), and my geographical location. I was flung into a depression upon realizing that it is nearly impossible to make even the smallest difference in this world or especially to attempt to be unique – and that even if it could be possible, that your work may simply not be recognized.
Van Gogh is an excellent example of this. Similarly, everyone doubted me (“this deck sucks, prove why it is good, have you even won”) up until the moment that they didn’t – which is the exact point at which I no longer received credit for the idea. Also at this point, what I thought was “my goal” was finally accomplished, and in any case, has since then begun to deteriorate. There is almost no new discussion other than “how do I play/netdeck this for my own benefit, as I am too lazy to read 58+ pages of your work” in the thread, and after tournaments, I am casually mentioned as just another opponent. I finally can no longer kindly say that, in my experience, white is not needed, Trinket Mage is unnecessary, that Oblation is not worth it, that Sage of Epityr is strong in this deck, that Brand isn’t my play style, etc. etc. etc. I am not trying to hamper innovation, but simply, if you can’t learn from the experiences of others, you will be repeating “history’s” mistakes.
Therefore, I will not be posting further discussion on any Magic: the Gathering forum, though I will continue to develop it in real life in the way I originally had, for the last two years: diligently by myself and with my close friends.
It is better to do this now than to see it not long from now brought up in a Magicthegathering.com Wizard's article, casually mentioning the deck for 2 seconds ("it looks interesting, but we would replace the Sage with Force of Will", etc.), with Levy/Osyp/Szliefer/etc.'s name on it. It's not that far of a stretch, as it's happened before. By doing this now, I will also attempt to prevent the further spread of how the deck works, in order to preserve the ideas for the surprise factor in future tournaments. At that point, you may indeed finally hear that VH1. In the meantime, we all will have a bit more free time not spent on this thread’s maintenance and continuance.
And if the end result of the unfolding of these events in general or of composing this (now) essay did nothing but to show that it is possible in life to reverse a troubled situation, or that it is worth attempting to be a freethinking individual, or even simply to identify a problem when one exists, then it was all worth it.
So, whether or not you agree with me or this decision, I am respectfully asking that you would please refrain from working with this concept, especially without crediting the original source (the information I have gathered while building/playing/theorizing with this concept).
Thank you for everything over the years, MTG Salvation.
-Stephen Judd
Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
I cannot say I know the feeling of having a deck simply stolen, or anything like that, but I can imagine how it would feel. It's sad to see someone go because of it.
Good luck in your endeavors!
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
I'm not taking anything away from a deck's creator - don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for guys willing to test their own ideas into the ground to find what works. I have even more respect for the fact that a lot of people spend good money, not just on cards, but on travel and entry fees to play their own creations. I find it more admirable in a format like Legacy simply because the tournaments are few and far between.
But, really, it is a game. A game, folks. And beyond that, you (not pointing a finger at anyone) are never going to be bigger than that simply because without the game - innovation (and innovators) does not exist. Even with the multitudes of cards available to us in Legacy - there is a finite combination of possibilities. Being first to resolve one of those combinations of 60 cards into a good deck, while being an accomplishment, is not anything novel. It has been happening since the game's inception. We aren't going to credit new creators for Threshold because somebody quickly posts a list with Ponder, or a Deadguy list with Thoughtseize. I play a ton of games with 'novel' decks on MWS and get comments like 'I have a deck like that' or 'my buddy tried to make that work'.
And these forums are littered with comments just like that. But when you post here, you have made a decision - that you want help to make your deck better, that you do want more people to learn and test your creation, and that you are willing to listen to criticism and suggestion. The consequence of this action is that everyone reading now has the opportunity to use your information and hard work to their own ends - and that's, unfortunately maybe, NOT a bad thing. I'm by no means suggesting that people should take credit for something that isn't theirs, but really - if you are the first to play a deck in your playgroup, they will usually attribute the deck to you no matter where you found it - it becomes Larry's deck, Chris' deck, Mike's deck, whatever.
But that's explicitly HOW you improve deck design - you get people to take ownership of the idea; you get people to invest themselves into the deck; you get people to try all the cool and interesting ideas that you don't have time to test on your own. I mean, isn't that why you posted in the first place?
I understand that this might just be one man's opinion - but you don't get to just take your ball and go home. We're adults - period. If you choose to quit posting, playing, whatever, that doesn't (or shouldn't) affect these boards one bit. You gave this community a deck and a lot of people have taken ownership of your idea and molded it into their own version (or they've accepted your version as 'the best'). It's just selfish to think you can take that away from the community.
Fred Bear...
In Isamru's defense, I can see where he is coming from. While I myself do not agree with all the points, I can sympathize a bit.
Essentially, unless I misread his post, he is unhappy with the fact that people are taking credit for his creation. While this is just a game of magical cards, the same kind of feelings are applicable in real life. Plagiarism, copyrights, academic honesty codes, the engineering code of honor, and so on.
That being said, Isamaru seems to be closing off one possible avenue of ideas and tech being out right taken. There is nothing wrong with that, but it does seem to be a bit childish, and possibly an overreaction.
Just playing devil's advocate.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
I definitely agree that this is not solely my idea. The internet has provided a double-edged sword in that there are friends and foes, but so too in real life. *shrug*
Thank you for all the help so far, and in the years to come. I am reopening the thread (thanks YaunTi) because I did overreact a bit in that I closed it, but I feel that this issue did need to be addressed. It is better to have discussion continue there (although I may drop in less often, that should accomplish the same homework-time increase goal I had in mind) than to have new threads crop up, if possible to prevent.
Thanks again
Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
Don't let some mindless net deckers get you down!
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
I suppose I did act a bit childish / overreacted a bit, but I did feel that this needed to be voiced.
The thread will stay open, but it will be nice to maybe see new ways of cooperation.
Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
You'll still be around, right? For the MtGSal tournaments? It would really be a shame to lose you when they've just started up.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
Thanks, Cabal_chan, yes I'll still play in the forum tournaments (and am glad that they were started).
Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
Although I comprehend your conceptual reality on the situation of what the direction vector of how VH is going. I feel obliged to say the following two items.
First I remember one year ago taking up a deck that I thought had some potential and start playing it. I was the first deck that I ever played on MWS and I played it for about 2 months. Then I got board added the white splash and called it “The Puget Sound.” So, my first piece of business is some acknowledgment for composing “Vile Horror.”
Second is a word of chagrin for leaving. That is all I have for this… This has truly flabbergasted me. So this paragraph is short.
So SJ….. This is my only attempt for you not to leave. Remember all the bad times that the thread had. And I end the response with this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=LwZrylyu9ZI
-MoT
there was a game called "The Legend of the Five Rings", and i designed the deck that took the game to another level.
a friend of mine named Vu Nguyen piloted the deck at the world gen-con legend of the five ring tourney to a second place finish. he should have gotten 1st; however, it was later revealed that everyone stacked their decks so they had a CHANCE to simply beat my creation... oh yaw and vu NEVER cut anyone's deck, but he went undefeated for 2 days straight (until the last game) beating in 1 tourney all of the best players of past years.
the designers of the game were so impressed about the deck design that they went ahead and created not 1 but 2 cards after Vu AND they went ahead and created an entire alternate storyline set called "thousand years of darkness" because if my deck would have won (which it should have) it would have changed the storyline completely.
every where we went to trade for magic cards, vu was treated like a celebrity for the deck, because of the strong community for l5r. he would go out and autograph the cards they named after him such as:
http://www.l5rsearch.com/images/cards/card994.jpg
people would sent him tons of chase rares for the game, and he even got a few pairs of samaurai swords just for winning with the deck. the deck wasn't JUST a great deck, in L5R it is referred to as "THE DECK".
did i feel jealous of my friend's success? sure i did. it really doesn't matter to me that i don't have my name attached to the deck nor does it matter to me that vu failed to mention my name when they interviewed him about the deck.
we both know that it was my creation, and i originally built the deck to beat everyone in my play group. you have to remember that even he opposed to playing my deck because he had his own monk deck that he loved to play; however, he knew my deck was superior.
all i have to say that's how life works. just enjoy the time you had with the deck and remember in life that there are so many things that we take for granted. all of the software that you are using just for this communication was designed by uncredited software engineers. i am sure you have no idea who invented the bricks or wood processing chemicals used to make your house. or who designed the car you drive. i could go on about it, but you get the (my) point.
Thank you for offering me a different side of the story, Top Deck, and I am impressed and surprised to hear about L5R.
Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
I learned long ago that credit is something that you'll almost never get unless you take the deck to a 1st place finish or at least a top 8 of a major tourney yourself. I'm talking Grand Prix & Pro Tour level, and even then people will change 1 or 2 cards and call it their own.
I've created decks such as Prosperity Bloom, Flash, & Combo Affinity (As well as others), yet you do not see my name attached to those. Some will remember my posting about the Flash combo recently but most will remember the fact that it was just some rediculous combo that should have been banned. Flash took down Grand Prix Columbus, and my name is not linked to it, but I as well as my friends know what I released upon the legacy community. Prosperity Bloom is considered the first combo deck, as the entire deck was designed to perform the combo and win, when in reality it actually was not.
I know what I've created and there is no reason really to argue with those that doubt me. What is there to gain? The only reason to fight for recognition is to prove that you are as vain as the others. You yourself know what you created, as do a few others. What you need to do is just take appriciation in the fact that people are playing your deck, and what you have done is provide the format with a deck that can compete, even though people don't know you created it. Prosperity Bloom will never be forgotten as long as MTG is around, and I really like the thought of that, even though my name is not attached.
The whole "I want to be as famous as Stephen Menendian, Jack Elgin, Eldariel, and Gearheart" is completely overrated. I am not saying they are bad people, but the hype that surrounds them doesn't make them better. It makes them just more known. Heck, I don't even know who Eldariel is off the top of my head, so what good does it do him, or the others that I do know.
Deck ideas are not something that people should argue over. I've designed a Welder Survival deck, and that was without knowing other designs. Am I the creator of Welder Survival? Answer is Yes and No. Yes I've reached that idea on my own, but no other people have reached the same idea, but they would have the same answer to that question as well. People need to seperate their egos from their decks. Deck ideas aren't yours, someone else will reach the same point at which they come up with that idea for a deck sooner or later too.
Stephan you know you can be above all that.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
Stephen did not do this because he wishes people would give him credit and recognition. He did this because he wishes people never had known about the deck, looking back. I think things simply got out of hand.
Also, he wrote that he thought he wanted to be like Menendian, but realized how unimportant it was. Did you read the whole paragraph?
Shock_to_your_Dome, I actually believe that the deck would in fact be better without having become so widespread. And Stephen admitted in the 'letter' that he knew that he could not actually ask people to give him credit. As expected, a lot of people really aren't understanding that he doesn't simply want recognition and credit at all times.
Complete_Jank, that is great that you created ProsBloom and HulkFlash, and I can sympathize with that, but I think you are missing his point: It's not a sense of vanity to want recognition, but that it is wrong for those who cannot possibly understand the hours of labor that went into building the deck to profit from it. Also, what recognition is there to truly be gained from such a pool of people anyway? Some of the absolute lowest people play this game, surely this does not describe all or even most of the population of players, but it is certainly no honor to have one's name tossed around by cretins who leech off of one's ideas and hard work. As Stephen wrote, he really did not want to become a celebrity. He and I realized that we need a break. In the end, keeping up with this thread is time that could have been spent doing homework and, well, being a kid. I think he just wants a break from the stress of updating the thread.
It is, however, good to see that some of you (smoky squirrel, The Descent) really do get what he was trying to say.
Thank you to R&Doom at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe for the banner!
Thank you Erasmus for the Avatar!
Clan A.R.D.
MtG Music Video - Simple Plan's Untitled
People would still be talking about similar decks. UrDraco did do well with a similar design at Gencon, but with Brand. Once something is shared, it is shared. Team BHWW (Old Team BHWC) is very cautious in what we release as far as information. We have quite a lot of decks that we have tested and found to performed well, but we keep many of them off the forums because of the strength that not being known provides.
People who take "Tech" and use it to win or those that "Net" deck don't care who provides the knowledge to them or what it took to get that knowledge, and never will. To want recognition is to be vain, but to want it is but to be human.
Think of it like this: There is a soda machine, and soda's cost $0.25 at first. You buy them every day, but there are others that steal them from the machine. A warning that the price will be raised to $0.50 is put on the machine if people don't stop stealing. The price ultimately gets raised, and the people who steal don't care and will continue. Sooner or later you are paying $5 for a can of soda, and the thieves are still getting them for free, and signs are still being put up that the price will be raised.
In short, there are lots of creeps out there, and they don't care what it costs you as long as they get what they want. Taking away something will only mean that they will go else where for what they want, and doesn't help the people that actually pay the costs.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
What is so wrong about borrowing someone else's idea? Seriously, why do some of you think of it as almost a sin? The whole point of the deck forums is to enhance an idea by using more than just yourself and allowing people the benifit of seeing and using that idea.
Would you dismiss me as a netdecker because I play Solidarity? I also play Iggy and Ichorid.. Sometimes I play SI, or Death and Taxes, and occasionaly Red splash Thresh or Goblins. But I also play RB Madness, BWR Prison, UWG Orb lockdown, RW Geddonstorm, GR Nature's Assault, these are all decks that Iv'e built with no outside sources, most of them date back to Tempest, before I quit the first time right before Urza's block.
They might not all be good, true. But am I any less of a player because I like to play someone else's deck? Solidarity is pure genious, and I wish I had created it, but the fact that my name isn't Gearheart isn't gonna make me not play it. I respect Gearhearts work on Solidarity as much as I respect your's on Vial Horror. And yes, I've played Vial Horror on occasion as well.
I quit Yugioh because of all the immature players throwing around the terms, "Netdecker" and "Lucksack" like they were insults. I thought most magic players were above looking down on people because they enjoy playing decks that someone else made.
Sorry for this mini-rant in your thread Isamaru, but I feel that I should point out that not everyone see's things from one perspective. I don't believe in either "Unique at any cost" or "play what wins or don't bother playing at all" mottos.
Shion: There is a huge difference between netdecking from someone and claiming to be the sole inventor of the idea. The problem faced here is that Stephen, imo, really felt attacked when people started stating that Vile Horror was their creation, well knowing that it was not. In fact, he was most of the time exhuberant when somebody would pilot his deck somewhere, eventhough they didn't totally credit him. And concerning Solidarity: yes, you can play the deck without being named Gearheart, but you cannot claim ownership of the idea. You admit that someone OTHER than you was genius enough to think up the deck.
Complete_Jank: Not much to say to you in this matter, you seem to understand the motivations. On other notes:
Maybe you didn't know, but Prosbloom did have a name attached to it. I cannot remember it and so I do not know if that name was yours, but it pops up from time to time.
And Comboaffiinity? I would like to see a decklist of that or at least some linkage. I am intrigued.
These are the type of comments I'm referring too, and they have not just appeared in this thread but strong anti "netdecking" sentiment comes up from time to time, allways justified by being "unique."
People who play decks they didn't make shouldn't be considered dumb or lazy. Thats a horrible generalization, and thats exactly the bias im talking about.
Besides, I think it's rather arrogent to assume that your deck is one of a kind in the first place. Like many have said in this thread, lots of people have similiar idea's, especially in a card game with a limited card pool.
Even if someone had seen Stephen's list and it inspired them to make a deck of their own, and due to a process of elimination come to the same conclusions on what is good in the deck and what is not. Have they then netdecked Stephen Judd's Vial Horror? Or have they made their own deck? What if the list is only a few cards different? Is it wrong for them to claim that they made the deck, because they came to the same logical conclusion's as Stephen?
Who can really say for sure if they copied? Should it even be an issue?
Thats the kind of thing I'm getting at here.
BTW, Prosbloom is attributed to Mike Long.
My 2 cents.
But many of them still top 8ed. Playing an unfamiliar deck into the top 8 says alot about their playskill regardless of how you feel about them netdecking.
Also do realize that not everyone puts the same value on deck construction as part of the game. Many people simply don't enjoy it, so they don't do it. Being able to pick up a new deck and just play it is alot of fun for some people.
I personally Enjoy both Deck Construction, and Deck Deconstruction (picking up a deck and Disassembling it, to find its base function and method of play.) So I can see both sides of the coin. If I go to a tournament and I play Solidarity or Red Splash Thresh over one of my own decks, then it is not out of laziness, but out of an interest to see how that deck does vs. the field and how well I can play it.
Winners aren't determined by who brings the most original deck after all.
In closing, judging people with sufficient lack of any real information about them, based only on what deck they choose to play, is in a word, ignorant.
So in summary, repeatedly telling people the same thing gets old and no development is happening in the thread so there is no reason for him to leave it open. AND he is hoping that random child molesters at tourneys won't recognize him or his deck anymore Also please if you feel like whining about/defending net-deckers go open a thread in the right place.
Even though I think this was blown out of proportion I will end with this. Good luck in finding what your looking for Stephen, and good luck with the deck. I hope you can eventually get things to a point where your happy with them.
Forget VH. Let it go where it will (you can't control this anyway). You have done plenty for it. That deck does not define you. There WILL be other ideas worth your time. VH is probably not going to be the best thing you have built when all is said and done. You are bigger than that deck.
I am aware that another name was attached to the deck, that name is not mine.
I believe that might have been the name, I think it was the same first name as myself. (That being Mike)
I had created Prosbloom without Prosperity. When Mirage was released that gave me Cadaverous Bloom and Mystical Tutor. I combined that with Braingeyser, Timetwister, Wheel of Fortune, Regrowth, Channel, Demonic Tutor, Brainstorm, and the rest of the power, as well as Force of Will to back it up. Visions gave me Prosperity, Squandered Resources, and Vampiric Tutor. Making the jump to Prosperity was only logical, but Squandered Resources was the real key to the combo, and allowed the addition of Fastbond.
I played this deck myself, but when Prosperity was printed my friend who was more interested in type 2 and not so much type 1 asked if I could make a version that he could play at his weekly tourneys. I started with 4 of each Prosperity, Cadaverous Bloom, Squandered Resources, Drain Life, & Vampiric Tutor. I then looked for another way to get more mana accel than just Squandered Resources, as I knew it wasn't enough. I found Natural Balance to work perfectly with the Resources, and filled the last few spots and gave the deck to my friend and told him not to share, but to crush the local tourney. He won the first two weeks, and then many other people started playing the deck. Did he share it? Possibly, but he said he did not, and I would believe him because building the deck from watching it going off wouldn't be that difficult, so anyone could have stolen the idea.
It isn't that the idea was unlikely for someone else to come up with, but that I was already using the engine before Prosperity, Vampiric Tutor, Squandered Resources, and Natural Balance were printed.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.