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#1 |
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Don't Blink or You'll Miss it.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,371
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Set Size 317 cards
96 Commons 96 Uncommons 96 Rares 18 Basic Lands 11 Tokens Mission Statement This set is a redesign of Magic using modern Magic design conventions and innovations, but significantly altering core concepts of the game. The Color Pie has been restructured. Subtypes have been added to all cards, and creature types have been consolidated. Power levels have been reestablished for different card types. Rules language and keywords have been rewritten. New keywords have been introduced. Existing card names and art have been used for this reimagining of the game, mostly from ABU, but a few others from other sets when the flavor dictated. I tried very hard to stick to early sets whenever able. Link to the visual spoiler I recommend you take a look at it along with the text spoiler because many of these cards work better when you can see the finished product.
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Emperor of Ice-Cream
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Between the emotion and the response.
Posts: 4,189
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This looks like a well thought out and complete revision (someone else started a reboot, but it wasn't as complete... who was that?) but I'll chip in my $0.02 anyway.
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The goal is fair enough, but card draw is a little against white's philosophy, IMO. Because of its tendency toward zealotry (in maintaining the status quo) it shouldn't get card draw aside from, say, cantrips. This is shared with red, which also has the "zealot" tendency (because of its heedless, emotional nature). Quote:
What? White is the main artifact color? What about blue, the color of... well, of artifice? I can see white in a secondary role to this obviously, but...Quote:
Hrm. I'd like to see it keep Ghostly Prison effects as part of its "taxing" theme... but "can't block" and conditional "can't attack" effects are certainly red, so this makes some sense. Quote:
Since Wizards seems to be taking this direction itself, I can accept it. Quote:
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If anything, straight card draw (i.e., draw 2 or more) should go to black. Blue has also lost the ability to change land types. That ability exists in an artifact card, Mystic Compass and if it were put in a color, it would now ship over to Green. Quote:
Fair enough. What about straight-up "unblockable"? Quote:
Erm. Bounce should stay in blue and maybe red, if Planar Chaos has any relevancy in this. Quote:
If anything this should be flipped: Blue should get mana filtering and green should get actual land search. Quote:
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It's only natural for "counter" manipulation to be blue. I like the counter -> chip switch, it removes ambiguity. Quote:
So blue is the Turtle color. Blue has also gained a little bit of discard, allowing them to look at a player’s hand and have that player discard a card of their choice. Quote:
![]() Excuse me while my heart returns to its normal position inside my body. Quote:
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It could at least keep it in secondary capacity... Quote:
Fair enough. Although I liked black's "do anything for a price" effects. Quote:
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Hm. Quote:
I'd rather see an actual "coercion" effect in black, like an Aura that says "at the beginning of each player's upkeep, you gain control of enchanted creature unless its controller pays N life," where N=2 probably. Not very black, IMO. Why simply scare a creature off when you can simply kill it? Dead men tell no tales, as it were. Quote:
So more like the Muck Drubb effect? Quote:
... Quote:
Moving land effects away from green was not a good choice, as I've said before. Quote:
Also no. Quote:
Wait, blue got direct damage? Oh, pingers. I thought you were trying to "fix" Alpha. ![]() Quote:
I don't think planeswalkers should count as a "real" card type, since they're supposed to be rare. But the other stuff seems pretty justified. Quote:
Fair enough. Quote:
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Okay. Probably should have "skip other step" effects as part of that too. Who needs main phases, for example? Quote:
Fair enough. Like hitting the enemy in the back of the head, although this tends to punish people with fewer cards in hand. Quote:
Fair enough, although this might be a little too cerebral for monored. Quote:
My least favorite change, as you might be able to tell. It could hate nonbasic lands, and it certainly justified in doing so. Actually this might be better, if you care to downplay and/or distribute effects that strictly care about basic lands. Quote:
Fair enough. Quote:
Huh?! Quote:
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Regarding creature types: Although my gut doesn't really like the "Beast" and "Chimera" as race model, it's quite interesting and more unifying. Taking out Cleric disregards a large part of why Magic was created in the first place (quick game between DnD sessions)... Although maybe you could split it up into, say, Priest, Monk, and Mystic. I don't really like the re-inclusion of Minion... it's really broad. No Druids either? Sad. Swarm? Good call. I wonder why this wasn't done before. Regarding card types: I don't like the Tribal change. There's no real reason (especially with only one type of nonpermanent spell) to broaden it to include all subtypes. I suggest splitting it into two. Tribal includes all creature types. Mystic includes all enchantment and sorcery types. Artifacts and lands can just, well, stay alone and unloved. Quote:
So each type implies a certain effect? Okay. Quote:
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Regarding what each color gets: It seems like you kinda spread out traditional effects so that each color can almost play by itself... monocolor play is not a good thing, IMO. Not only that, but eventually every color will start to look the same if you extrapolate N years down the road as we are now. Regarding the mechanics: Quote:
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Like the Diminish keyword, Replenish is triggered when the card with it is placed in a graveyard from anywhere. The effect is that you can have a target player draw a card. This ability will often act like a souped-up cantrip. The keyword exists in Green and Blue.[/quote] While these are all good abilities, I don't think they're core set material... evergreen keywords should be able to appear in any set, even in singles. Quote:
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Boring, but workable. Quote:
Meh. Don't like the name and I don't see the need. Quote:
Well anyway, I like it better as a keyword action. No. Please? Quote:
I think you could afford to edit protection a bit in the reboot, since Wizards has said it's a bad keyword (too many effects). Maybe as an ability word, i.e. Ward — CARDNAME can't be blocked, targeted, dealt damage, or enchanted by anything that's [a] [color/type/subtype]. Possibly, but only at rare, I hope. Quote:
I don't like this as a core-set keyword. Another PC change... meh. This might be a fun exercise to do without making an entire set... hope you don't mind if I riff of your initiative a bit?
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Do I Contradict Myself?
Very Well Then I Contradict Myself. Last edited by Valros; 03-12-2009 at 03:20 PM. |
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#10 |
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milky & coffee
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Wow, you clearly put a lot of effort into this. Kudos for that alone!
I mostly agree with Valros. I should point out that this seem a very cool creative exercise on the boundaries of the color pie, but I do feel you went too far on lots of places. Many aspects of Magic as they are right now seem just more intuitive and less forced into the colors' philosophy. I think if I try something like that someday, it will include a lot less changes. Among them, soft "taxing" counters would move to white; white would get more card selecting abilities (and NOT card draw... IMO, card selection fits way more a color that plans every move,k but doesn't necessarily go out of its way to acquire loads of academic knowledge); white would also be the primary graveyard hate color; and no, I would never bring back something as convoluted as banding. Blue would stay almost untouched, only losing soft counters to white, and gaining better tutoring. I'd say pinging back in blue is a no-no. Black would lose tutoring to blue (let's face it, it makes a lot more sense there); I would avoid the "nonblack creature" clauses on cards like Terror; and fear would probably be scrapped altogether. Red would definitely get more combat abilities, and also something that I feel is very red: keeping players from drawing a card. Otherwise, I think they got red pretty well: mayhem, chaos, artifact/land destruction, direct damage. Green would be the creature king, period. Weenies, midrange or fatties - all would be green's domain. Savannah Lions would be a green card. Reach would no longer be a keyword. Green would retain its hatred of the unnatural, but I would limit its land hate to nonbasic lands. And speaking of which, something else I'd change - nonbasic lands would mostly feature artificial constructions. It always bugged me that cards like Tranquil Ticket are nonbasic lands - what's so different from a regular forest? Jungle Shrine - now that's more like it. I'll look at your card list a few more times before I can completely wrap my head around them, and thus make card-specific comments. EDIT: Almost forgot, mad props for the new artifact border. I really think brown suit them way more than silver to convey a medieval-setting feel.
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Former Athena's Servant of the Greek Alliance Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011) ***** ricklongo and RicardoLongo on MTGO **************** ****************
Last edited by RickCorgan; 03-12-2009 at 04:27 PM. |
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#11 |
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Balanced Breakfast
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,007
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I love this. This is amazing.
My favourite thing is the Sorcery subtypes. This is gold. I had once thought I wished all spells had subtypes, and you've done quite a job of naming them. (Though I still Fireball to say, "Sorcery - Fire" Because... you know... it's FIRE! "Sorry, can't touch my guy. He's got protection from fire!" Or even rename protection as _proof. Fireproof. Whiteproof. Blackproof. Waterproof. Landproof. Squirrelproof. Nah, maybe not.) I love a lot what you done, and I think I'm gonna print some of these up and draft with my buddies. It's gonna be wicked!
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#12 |
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Don't Blink or You'll Miss it.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,371
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Valros, thanks for all the specific notes. Rather than respond to each, which is a bit too self indulgent on my part, let me comment on the most persistent comment you made – moving land mastery from green to blue. I put a lot of symmetry into this set. There is a pattern. I looked at the color wheel and tried to make these card types likes and dislikes sit across from each other. That concept was something I suggested in the older Alpha redo thread you alluded to earlier and it killed the tread LINK
Look at these patterns, first for creature type allocation. Construct, Golem Angel, Griffin, Kithkin, ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Chimera, Horse, Wizard![]() Knight![]() ![]() Artificer Crab, Fish, Merrow, Sphinx![]() Minion![]() ![]() Rogue![]() Elemental![]() ![]() Shaman, Wurm Bat, Gargoyle, Rat, Spirit, Vampire, Zombie![]() Demon, Snake![]() ![]() Barbarian![]() Insect, Swarm![]() ![]() Witch Giant, Goblin, Minotaur![]() Dragon, Troll![]() ![]() Warrior![]() Dwarf![]() ![]() Bird, Soldier Beast, Dryad, Elephant, Hydra, Lizard, Plant, Wolf![]() Elf, Ooze![]() ![]() Monk![]() Drake, Faerie![]() ![]() Archer![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Chimera, HumanThen Keywords allocation: Equip, Relic Banding![]() Protection![]() Lifelink Ranged strike, Vigilance![]() Diminish![]() Split second Regeneration![]() First strike![]() Fear Berserker, Haste![]() Trample![]() Melee N Shroud, Vanishing![]() Flash![]() Replenish![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Defender, Enchant, Flying, Heritage, ReachI went to a lot of effort to give each color a more distinct identity. So when I struck on giving each color a type focus I was left with a hard choice. Green shouldn’t be the Creature color and the Land color. One of those two would have to get moved to another color. Also, I really wanted the hate color for each type to actually be across from the color, to support the “enemy colors” idea of the game. Try and sketch that out on a piece of paper. No matter how hard you try and retain the traditional makeup of the color wheel something will look out of whack. I chose to have Green remain the creature color which allowed Black to be the anti-creature color and the rest fell into place. I actually like how it turned out, and blue as the land resource color works for me in the exploration/expansion way I flavored it. Enchantments work in black as magical cheats. The thing to keep in mind is that it’s all up for grabs. You can’t get stuck on things seeming off because it’s all going to be fit in mechanically first, then flavor gets added on top. So for example when I added vigilance to Blue I explained it by saying Blue conditions the mind and body and vigilance is martial arts. So the blue Serra’s Embrace in my set is called Untouchable Master. Again, it’s all open to interpretation. My interpretation looks like this. If you want to try a softer Alpha recast, please do. I’ll comment on it when you’re done. I knew the biggest hurdles would be choices I made and flavor, but then later, I am expecting to get some feedback on the cards themselves, as far as powerlevel and all that. The Moxen, power “9”, dual lands and planeswalkers should spark some debate. RickCorgan, I really liked the blocks you made and am glad you'll take a look at the set. See my above quotes for your color comments. Also, the brown artifact borders are all Magic Set Editor, Planar Chaos frames. I think they look great too. Pharm, I wanted to use so many of your posted ideas in here, like the chip types that cancell each other, and am looking for input from you on the Planeswalkers, since you've made so many of them. Glad you like the subtypes. |
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#13 |
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Possessed of adjectives legion.
Moderator ![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 15,001
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I think we would all have different ideas of where abilities and themes would fall in the color pie in the event of a reboot; I certainly have my own, having dallied with a reboot set myself. So I'll restrict myself here to a general comment, which is that too much symmetry is boring and stifling. For example, I would not concern myself with giving each color a "type focus" for the sake of giving each color a type focus; it feels forced.
Non-color-related comments, in no particular order: It seems to me like you're overusing the types "Chimera" and "Beast", to the extent that "choose a creature type" cards would have a distorted effect. This is especially notable given that you've done a good job of cutting down on the number of Humans. Not every creature has to have a race and a class (as you yourself acknowledge with your Birds). Removing the special rules from the land subtypes is a good idea. The change of counters/"chips" to permanents is intriguing. Replenish and diminish don't strike me as the best use of keyword space. This may go back to my symmetry comment: they're green-blue/blue-black keywords for the sake of green-blue/blue-black keywords. Heritage is a nice keyword, but it doesn't feel like an evergreen keyword, the sort of thing that would show up in a core set. Plus, some heritage cards seem overpowered, like Ivy Hydra. Save a line of text: make "Instant" or "Flash" a supertype instead of a keyword. I like your rewording of fear. I'm not feeling the flavor difference of the various enchantment and sorcery subtypes. Black Lotus shouldn't have "Black" in its name if it's not black. I realize the original does the same thing, but it's still not a good idea. Firestorm Phoenix needs reanimation of some sort. It's not a phoenix without it. What on earth is going on with Royal Assassin? Shivan Dragon is unacceptably wimpy. The Hive and The Lair are cool. Lord of the Pit can be simplified with "Whenever Lord of the Pit comes under your control, you lose 5 life." I wouldn't reprint the no-drawback dual lands. Red aggro seems overpowered, between efficient creatures, removal, and discard.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis, candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum. |
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#14 |
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Don't Blink or You'll Miss it.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,371
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Blinking Spirit: Thanks for the opinion. Those are the kind of constructive comments I was hoping for. I didn’t expect 100% approval from anyone since this is such a subjective list, so it was good to hear what you feel are important choices (like reanimating Phoenices.) It’s too bad Replenish and Diminish N seem less than spectacular to you, but I think as keywords they do a lot of interesting things. Maybe take another look at them, for example Nightmare or Verduran Archer.
![]() About Royal Assassin: I thought Samurai of the Pale Curtain was a perfect fit for the set with Melee and the White focus on graveyard hate, but I wanted to recast the flavor of it in Alpha art. The original Royal Assassin had clear flavor of “No matter who you are, the royal assassin can get you.” This card’s flavor is “When the Royal Assassin kills you, you stay dead.” I already have a better “tap to kill” card in the set with Sengir Stalker, and thought White certainly can support an appointed-killer concept. That art looks great on the new card though! Here are some other card notes. First some color shifted cards: Homestead (Annex) As a bastion of civilization I thought White could stand a little imperialism. And, I was looking for splash effects White could have as an ally to the “land color,” Blue. Gain control of target land seemed a nice niche for it. If you look at the set you will find that I didn’t think “gain control of X” really belonged in a certain color. I took that mechanic out of Blue and spread it out accordingly to each color based on its focus. So green can gain control of creatures, black can gain control of enchantments, and red can cloud its victim’s emotions and gain control of anything for at least a turn. In addition to this ‘shift of Annex, White also has a tweaked version of Orcish Squatters renamed Northern Paladin. Untouchable Master (Serra’s Embrace) I was never a huge fan of Serra’s Embrace, but I must admit I am smitten with the ‘shifted version. It’s probably the flavor. Your creature is now a master of Martial Arts and can fly like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon! Vigilance is centered in Blue for this set, so this card is a good fit, and I like the collection of abilities. In my quest to power up enchantments I was eager to try and always have them give a creature as many bonuses as possible, and almost always a P/T boost. Witch’s Circle (Martyrdom) Preventing damage is not in the Black slice of the color pie in this set, however, the strategy that this enchantment promotes really is. Sacrificing a man on the board to keep you from taking the hit really is in flavor. I tried not to get so bogged down by the mechanics of how a card carries out an effect when piecing the set together. There are some lesser abilities that have to manifest in other colors if the game design is going to work. (Like the life gain on Form of the Dragon.) Maddening Hymn (Hymn to Tourach) Hymn to Tourach was going to be in the set, I knew that from the start. What I didn’t know right away was that it would be a Red card. But I wanted to diversify Red’s threats, and spread out discard and the random element of some discard spells felt right in Red. Things really fell into place flavorfully too. A few artifacts in the set that are Red aligned are Instruments. Also, the original Hymn flavor text mentions playing music, and the Scott Kirschner Hymn art looks great in a red frame. There are a few more Red Incantations as a result of this flavor choice. Raise Wild (Bribery) I know Bribery is not the most fun card, but it was an area of design I was looking to include in the set. I really wanted to explore what it meant to be the creature color. Does that mean more than the best p/t :: CMC ratio? I thought it did. I like the idea that Green can turn your best creatures against you. And since green has the tutor abilities and play creatures for free ability, this card was a good fit for the set. I think it is less annoying in green than it was in blue because Green has a completely different deck focus, more aggro, less control. I was also happy to find a home for the Berserk artwork. New cards Mark of Justice This was a late addition to the set. I wanted to include a common Concoction, which I figured would be a combat trick of some sort. I am surprised that “Target creature gains lifelink until end of turn” hasn’t already been done. Also giving the creature Melee 3 is an attempt to fill the void left by Righteousness. Altogether, this in one of my favorite new cards. It is called Mark of Justice quite honestly because I was looking for early set art with a character putting markings or paint on themselves, to depict the Concoction part of it. Justice from Ice Age was too good to pass up. Whirlwind Drake A Blue Wood Elves was needed to cement the idea that it was the color of land search. Additionally, the Wood Elves card is a staple of traditional green cards and I knew it would see constructed play. Obviously I could have created an exactly ‘shifted card, but in thinking about it, I thought I could make the creature better if I made the land it finds worse. So Whirlwind Drake can only search up Nodes, which tap for colorless mana. It’s a great card and I am pleased with how it plays. Dementia Caster When I gave discard away to Blue and Red I knew I needed to show that Black discard still had an edge. As a more defensive color, I also wanted Black creatures with activated abilities that a player could hide behind and use at end of turn. The result was this instant speed discard machine. It’s good and has a strategy that supports it, but I don’t feel it’s broken or annoying. You really have to pay for it to keep this effect going. Also, I love that I could concept it after the characters from the Odyssey Block. It even fits in mechanically. Hurloon Mercenary This is a straight up attempt to reintroduce School of Piranhas from Exodus. Except I liked the idea that the negative part of the upkeep was that you’d have to sacrifice any creature rather than the creature. Like a small Lord of the Pit. Red has taken on more of the creatures with drawbacks identity that started out in Black back in the early sets. The flavor it being a grumpy minotaur mercenary amused me. Giant Growth I wanted to make good Auras in every color, and this was my first stab at redefining the power level I was shooting for. +2/+2 for G seems really appealing. But it’s so easy to get a 2-for-1 on Auras that if they are going to have the risk, they should also have the allure. I made it an Uncommon so it wouldn’t wreck limited. Giant Growth always sounded like a permanent effect, rather than a one time deal. Here are some combos I noticed this monrning: Urza’s Squadron + Heartsick Lance Rampant Exploration + Island Fish Jasconius Black Knight + Nevinyrral’s Gift Mons’s Goblin Raiders + Mox the Jeweler Sarcomancy/Imbricomancy + Pulsemurmur Hunted Troll + Drain Life Last edited by Excise; 03-14-2009 at 12:36 PM. |
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