[Development] Esper Cascade Denial (as suggested by Coldlogik)

[yanloup]

Originally Posted by SatanicWarmaster

But i had seen the esper build and saw the grix build and like you i tried to put them together.

...which is a big mistake IMO. Doing this, you're losing Ardent Plea(Esper v.) or Grixis Charm(Grixis v.), which are keystones for each variant. And I don't speak about the manabase.
With your version, I see CM or SS T2 completely meaningless, as they are followed by T3...nothing.
I advise you to try and play a 4c discard instead.

[HeroTheDragon]

FNM Report:

So, I took my Esper build to FNM tonight. Here's how it went:

Round 1: R/W Control
Game one, I see the Emeria on turn 1 and assume he's playing monowhite, so my turn 3 Convincing Mirage names mountain. This allows him to play a turn 4 Ajani Vengeant, and things go downhill from there. Thanks to a barrage of Knight of the White Orchid and Kor Cartographer, I can't hold him down, and when he nukes my lands, it's game over.
Game 2 I make a major sideboarding mistake--I take out my 4x Day of Judgment. This "control" deck suddenly turns aggro, beating me senseless far too fast. I also make a few play mistakes in this round, including forgetting to drop a land and missing the draw trigger from Mesa Enchantress.

Matches: 0-1 Games: 0-2

Round 2: B/W aggro
I'm playing a beginner in this round. Again, a deceiving manabase (turn 1 Akoum Refuge, in a deck with no red) leads me to make a bad call with Convincing Mirage, this time Plains. This, of course, lets him play Journey to Nowhere on my Mesa Enchantress (doh >.<). Nevertheless, I soon make his lands straightened-out Forests, then beat down with 4/4 Angels for the win.
Game 2 is a breeze.

Matches: 1-1 Games: 2-2

Round 3: Jund
There's really not much to say here. Jund is my favorite matchup for this deck. Game one I keep 4 lands and 3 Spreading Seas. Both games are blowouts (I take 6 damage, total). 2-0

Matches: 2-1 Games: 4-2

Round 4: Monowhite Soldier-ish Aggro
Game one is hilarious. He sees 3 lands the entire game, all of which are Islands within a turn of being played.
Game two gets ugly. My Days of Judgment run out faster than his Captains of the Watch, Martial Coups, and Conqueror's Pledges, and I take lethal to the dome.
Game 3 was pretty funny too. He's talking about how his deck is good against mine because he can only draw land, and true to his word, he has 9 straight land drops in a row. However, thanks to a vicious start, I have enchants for lands 1-6, meaning he doesn't see the double white for Martial Coup until turn 7, when he's down to 8. I play a DoJ the next turn, keeping my resilient Kathari alive. Later, Baneslayer hits on my side after the Kathari swings him to 6 (2 Ardent Pleas). Even though he O-Ringed one Ardent Plea before the 'Slayer appeared, she swings for lethal the next turn. 2-1

Matches: 3-1 Games: 6-3

I think I did rather well, overall. I got 4th place, directly behind the dude who beat me round 1. Two separate people asked for the decklist after watching me play. Perhaps without the mistakes of round 1 I could have been 1st. (Also, in an interesting side note, I threw my deck together minutes before the first round started because I didn't have the actual paper for it, so I had to buy/borrow today. I ended up playing one more basic and one Jwar Isle Refuge instead of a Marsh Flats and a Drowned Catacomb.)

My actual list, not the ideal:

Deck
Lands: 24 3 Swamp 4 Plains 5 Island 4 Arcane Sanctum 4 Glacial Fortress 1 Drowned Catacomb 1 Jwar Isle Refuge 2 Marsh Flats Spells: 26 4 Ardent Plea 4 Spreading Seas 4 Convincing Mirage 3 Resounding Wave 2 Esper Charm 4 Day of Judgment 2 Deny Reality 3 Sigil of the Empty Throne	Creatures: 10 4 Mesa Enchantress 3 Kathari Remnant 3 Sphinx of Jwar Isle	Sideboard 4 Baneslayer Angel 3 Quest for Ancient Secrets 3 Oblivion Ring 2 Mindbreak Trap 2 Esper Charm 1 Mind Control

And a last note: I cannot stress how powerful the Mesa Throne engine is. As was noted at my LGS tonight, Mesa Enchantress in this deck is, if she sticks, more powerful than Jace. Sigil of the Empty Throne is an excellent wincon, reliably pumping out free 4/4s. Together, they mean doom for the opponent.

[ParticleMan]

Originally Posted by yanloup

(4 color) is a big mistake IMO. Doing this, you're losing Ardent Plea(Esper v.) or Grixis Charm(Grixis v.), which are keystones for each variant. And I don't speak about the manabase. With your version, I see CM or SS T2 completely meaningless, as they are followed by T3...nothing. I advise you to try and play a 4c discard instead.

I wouldn't be so hasty to throw out 4 color denial. You may have a point about the lack of 3cc in the previous 4-color version and the unwieldy mana base, but there is still an undeniable reason to try to make it work -- Ajani.

What about splashing Ajani into Esper or Grixis without making the other changes and without losing the 3 drops? Probably into Esper, since RR for Ruinblaster is a mess for 4 colors.

Originally Posted by HeroTheDragon

FNM Report:

Round 1: R/W Control
Game one, I see the Emeria on turn 1 and assume he's playing monowhite, so my turn 3 Convincing Mirage names mountain. This allows him to play a turn 4 Ajani Vengeant, and things go downhill from there.

I fail to understand why you wouldn't name "Island" in any circumstance other than one where you know they want an Island. Spreading seas is already giving them Islands, so wouldn't this always be the safest default play?

[HeroTheDragon]

Originally Posted by ParticleMan

I fail to understand why you wouldn't name "Island" in any circumstance other than one where you know they want an Island. Spreading seas is already giving them Islands, so wouldn't this always be the safest default play?

Probably. However, since I saw Emeria, I figured it wouldn't really matter what I named, and I usually try to name the opposite colors of whatever they play first (which is why I also turned the Akoum Refuge in round 2 into a Plains).

[Coldlogik]

Originally Posted by ParticleMan

I love this. I REALLY want to build this 4-color version now. However, I'm analyzing the mana base and I'm not sure about it. 8 White, 14 Black, 17 Blue, 9 Red. 8 white sources seemed anemic at first but with only 3 Ajani / 3 Esper Charm, none of them required to be cast on T3/T4, that seems fine. However, 9 sources of red does NOT. 4 Bolt, 4 Blightning, 3 Ajani, 3 Bit Blast and then RR for 2 Ruinblaster and 2 Ultimatum. Ruinblaster is the worst of all since the deck is based on the land denial, and you need the RR to do it. What about fitting in 2 Arid Mesa, maybe 1 in place of a Marsh Flats and 1 in place of something else? That might be enough... though it would be nice to pump it up to 12 red sources if possible. 7th tri-land perhaps? Or get the red source some other way...

I worked with your lands. A LOT. It's a definite mathematical challenge wrestling with all the hard-CIPT tri-lands, soft-CIPT M10 lands, fetches and basics to work. It's almost mind-bending -- switch an M10, switch a fetch to compensate, you've changed the basic-land distribution and now affected the M10 CIPT, and on and on. However I think I've finally come up with a pretty nice distribution, see what you think:


The deck needs Necropolis more than Sanctum. Basics are as far down as I think you can safely go. Fetches and M10 duals are optimized simultaneously for color and minimizing CIPT, while not really over-fetching. You get 8 white, 17 blue, 14 black and 12 red sources. The weakness is 9 Swamp/Island sources for the 4 Drowned Catacomb. If you are comfortable dropping to 16 blue or 13 black, that would give a lot more flexibility. Then you could switch a Catacomb to a Summit, a swamp or an island.

It's better, but further tweaking would depend on the needs of the deck once it is more finalized. Thoughts?

There we go, talk about hard work paying off. Definatley a load better than what my first draft for the mana base was. I tried hard just couldnt quite get it right. I cant believe people are so pumped about this deck like I am.

[HeroTheDragon]

Originally Posted by Coldlogik

There we go, talk about hard work paying off. Definatley a load better than what my first draft for the mana base was. I tried hard just couldnt quite get it right. I cant believe people are so pumped about this deck like I am.

One of the more exciting things about it is how easily you beat the bejeesus out Jund. I have no problem 2-0ing with my build.

[ParticleMan]

Coldlogik -- what do you think of yanloup's point about the lack of 3cc LD? It concerns me. Ajani would be great, but I just don't know if it is really feasible. I thought about some kind of W/U/R variant with Ajani, since technically the primary core of the Esper version would still be there, but you'd lose all the good B cascade spells. 4 colors could work sometimes, but other times it would be waiting for colors, and in the waiting it would probably lose the game. We're supposed to be screwing them out of color, not ourselves.

I dunno though, Ajani MAY be able to splash into Esper. LOL. One thing about the deck is that it cascades a lot. That leaves you with more land draws, and also more desire to run more fetchlands, making a 4th splash color naturally fit... in theory. It would have to be minimal though, IMO.

[Coldlogik]

Originally Posted by ParticleMan

Coldlogik -- what do you think of yanloup's point about the lack of 3cc LD? It concerns me. Ajani would be great, but I just don't know if it is really feasible. I thought about some kind of W/U/R variant with Ajani, since technically the primary core of the Esper version would still be there, but you'd lose all the good B cascade spells. 4 colors could work sometimes, but other times it would be waiting for colors, and in the waiting it would probably lose the game. We're supposed to be screwing them out of color, not ourselves.

I dunno though, Ajani MAY be able to splash into Esper. LOL. One thing about the deck is that it cascades a lot. That leaves you with more land draws, and also more desire to run more fetchlands, making a 4th splash color naturally fit... in theory. It would have to be minimal though, IMO.

Well in my opinion, when I play the deck I usually have 2 land enchants in either my opening grip or Ill have 1 and draw another one by turn 3. Im never concerned. Even if I miss turn 3 land denial im like OH NOES gues Ill wait till next turn to play ajani or kathari and then win after that because turn 5 ill play bituminous blast to kill whatever you have on the field. Yesterday it was gravy playing vampires, he had a malakir, and a nocturnus with no black on top. Ive got 6 mana and play bituminous targetting nocturnus, cascade to remnant, cascade to blightning, block malakir with remnant regenerate, gg? The guy was probably like, WTF!? Im losing to this deck? He didnt miss a land drop either so he was at 6 lands but only 3 were swamps lol

[LegendofMyth]

Is there a reason the Grixis Versions arn't puitting a thought hemorrhage into their sideboards? Is it too slow or something?

[Coldlogik]

Originally Posted by LegendofMyth

Is there a reason the Grixis Versions arn't puitting a thought hemorrhage into their sideboards? Is it too slow or something?

I have it in my SB but I didnt post my SB yet because its not finished. TH is for decks with large amounts of shroudy guys. We lose pretty hard vs that stuff.

[netn9]

I tested the HeroTheDragon Decklist and this deck is so strong and so fun to play! good job about this deck's idea!
However, this deck has 1 big weakness - Borderposts - your opponent can just remove a Spreading Seas or Convincing Mirage from his land, and you can't enchent bordarposts...

And a question: anyone is plan to play this deck in big tournament?

Edit: Second prablom: LLanowar elves and another mana dorks...

[idkwhatimdoing]

Mana dorks hurt for sure, but its not a completely horrible problem at least in Game 2 and 3 you can use your sweepers/removal to keep them under control

Also, i've been toying around with a 4C build

Its GRBU

No white, Plea isn't necessary as long as you have ONE 3 mana cascader.. Also, BBE>>>>>>>>>>> Kathari. And the final point, Why is no one running Chandra Nalaar?

In my testing CHandra deals with GSS against jund, and the two games i lost against jund was to stag (yes he MD'ed it.)

[Galspanic]

I've been lurking here for a while and since I already have all the money cards (lands), I just spend $3 to get the rest of the deck to play in real life.

My biggest question is why nobody is posting Sideboards? I feel that my top 60 do an okay job against 2-3 color aggro decks, but the sideboard feels awkward and clunky. Obviously, you can't run Spell Pierce or Negate effectively against the control Match, so Traumatic Visions is the best option and that seems pretty bad. Archive Trap and Mind Funeral might work better against control though. 4 Luminarch Ascensions seem good since the only way to deal with that is Esper Charm.

I have 3 DoJ in the board because it really seems like nobody ever gets more than 1-2 creatures out anyway and the Remnants can handle those pretty well. But, when I need to sweep, I need to sweep.

Identity Crisis is the MVP of the deck most of the time.

So, how do you all board against different decks and what are the Sideboards looking like?
This is what I have right now....

Esper Denial
Land - 24 3 Marsh Flats 4 Arcane Sanctum 3 Glacial Fortress 3 Drowned Catacomb 6 Island 2 Swamp 3 Plains Win Conditions - 4 2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle 1 Baneslayer Angel 1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind Cascade - 13 4 Ardent Plea 4 Stormcaller's Boon 4 Kathari Remnant 1 Deny Reality	Mono Bluing - 8 4 Convincing Mirage 4 Spreading Seas Other spells - 11 4 Resounding Wave 1 Day of Judgment 2 Identity Crisis 4 Esper Charm	Sideboard - 15 3 Luminarch Ascension 4 Archive Trap 4 Mind Funeral 3 Day of Judgment 1 Identity Crisis

[HeroTheDragon]

Originally Posted by Galspanic

I've been lurking here for a while and since I already have all the money cards (lands), I just spend $3 to get the rest of the deck to play in real life.

My biggest question is why nobody is posting Sideboards? I feel that my top 60 do an okay job against 2-3 color aggro decks, but the sideboard feels awkward and clunky. Obviously, you can't run Spell Pierce or Negate effectively against the control Match, so Traumatic Visions is the best option and that seems pretty bad. Archive Trap and Mind Funeral might work better against control though. 4 Luminarch Ascensions seem good since the only way to deal with that is Esper Charm.

I have 3 DoJ in the board because it really seems like nobody ever gets more than 1-2 creatures out anyway and the Remnants can handle those pretty well. But, when I need to sweep, I need to sweep.

Identity Crisis is the MVP of the deck most of the time.

So, how do you all board against different decks and what are the Sideboards looking like?
This is what I have right now....

I think one of the strongest arguments for an Esper build is Mesa Enchantress + Sigil of the Empty Throne. Ardent Plea turns into ridiculous card advantage with one or both of those out. Identity Crisis could be interesting to test, haven't tried it out yet.

As for sideboards, I posted mine somewhere in the past 12 hours on this thread, along with the Esper version I played at FNM last night. I disagree with the usage of Luminarch Ascension in the SB because it reduces the consistency of "cascade into denial." On turn three, after they play the Rupture Spire or Emeria, you don't want to Ardent Plea into Luminarch (probably). The SB I used, likely to undergo some modifications, is as follows:
4 Baneslayer Angel
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Quest for Ancient Secrets
2 Esper Charm
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Mind Control

The Baneslayers are in there to provide a surprise, hopefully cause the opponent to board out removal, and are boarded in especially for decks without good removal.
O-rings are good v Planeswalker Control.
The quest is for mill. I make an exception to the "Nothing below 2 CMC rule" because if I board these in, I need them.
Esper Charm is for utility (and Luminarch).
Mindbreak often goes in v. control or cascade.
Mind Control is for Iona.

[Galspanic]

Originally Posted by HeroTheDragon

I think one of the strongest arguments for an Esper build is Mesa Enchantress + Sigil of the Empty Throne. Ardent Plea turns into ridiculous card advantage with one or both of those out. Identity Crisis could be interesting to test, haven't tried it out yet.

As for sideboards, I posted mine somewhere in the past 12 hours on this thread, along with the Esper version I played at FNM last night. I disagree with the usage of Luminarch Ascension in the SB because it reduces the consistency of "cascade into denial." On turn three, after they play the Rupture Spire or Emeria, you don't want to Ardent Plea into Luminarch (probably). The SB I used, likely to undergo some modifications, is as follows:
4 Baneslayer Angel
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Quest for Ancient Secrets
2 Esper Charm
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Mind Control

The Baneslayers are in there to provide a surprise, hopefully cause the opponent to board out removal, and are boarded in especially for decks without good removal.
O-rings are good v Planeswalker Control.
The quest is for mill. I make an exception to the "Nothing below 2 CMC rule" because if I board these in, I need them.
Esper Charm is for utility (and Luminarch).
Mindbreak often goes in v. control or cascade.
Mind Control is for Iona.

Thanks! Mindbreak Trap might be just what I need. I want a 4 mana counter that won't screw with the Cascading and Traumatic Visions is awful. I like the idea of Luminarch, but in reality I haven't played it enough to know if it works. I do like your list, and in that $3 I said that I spent I grabbed a set of Enchantresses to test out after looking at them in your deck. How is Mind Control ever going to help with Iona? Who would name anything but Blue when she gets played?

And Identity Crisis is amazing since you have already clogged their hand with bounced lands and unplayable spells. In the limited testing I have done, a turn 6 Crisis with 2-3 Blue'd lands means the end of the game. There just isn't a way to bounce back from that. You should try it out.