Progenitus + Gravebane

Lordatog · 11-12-2009, 04:30 PM

So, this question was brought up as an aside in a recent topic, but no answer was given and the topic is now locked. If player A controls both Gravebane Zombie and Progenitus and player B casts Wrath of God, where does the zombie wind up? The most reasonable conclusion would seem to be that player A chooses which of the two replacement effects applies first, and can therefore choose whether it ends up on top or gets shuffled in, but I don't know if the rules actually support that - it's not two replacement effects affecting the same event, it's two replacement effects affecting two different events that happened to occur at the same time (I think).

H1jAcK · 11-12-2009, 04:38 PM

Well, from what I can gather from the CR, yes, you would get to choose the order in which these apply. It seems similar to multiple triggered abilities going on the stack in that if you control both of them, you choose which goes on the stack first. I know replacement effects don't use the stack, but it's the same principle. You can shuffle Proggy, then put Gravebane Zombie on the top of your library, or put the Gravebane Zombie on top then shuffle Proggy in.

This is what I interpreted from the rules, so if I'm wrong, just tell me I am. I may have accidentally overlooked the relevant section in replacement effects. -Jack

After talking to someone, there is no [O] answer on this. Also, I am wrong. Will look into this more. -Jack

Engine · 11-13-2009, 02:12 AM

Here's a similar discussion that may help:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=144493

Looks like you get to choose the order, and as such, perform their replacement effects in that order.

GrifterMage · 11-13-2009, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Engine

Here's a similar discussion that may help:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=144493

Looks like you get to choose the order, and as such, perform their replacement effects in that order.

That's not relevant to this question; that thread is discussing triggered abilities, while here we're concerned about replacement effects, which are a different kettle of fish entirely.

Technically, Player A should end up putting Gravebane on top of his library and shuffling in Progenitus simultaneously, but what that means in practical terms I'm afraid I have no idea. I'll also look around and see if I can find an answer.

GrifterMage · 11-13-2009, 02:27 AM

Ah; found it.

Shuffle Progenitus into your library; the Gravebane ends up on top. You can't choose to have Gravebane shuffled in with the rest.

Engine · 11-13-2009, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrifterMage

Ah; found it.

Shuffle Progenitus into your library; the Gravebane ends up on top. You can't choose to have Gravebane shuffled in with the rest.

Wow, that was a bonkers thread. Good to know! It was tough at first to wrap my head around applying several replacement effects simultaneously like that, but I guess it works out in the end. But did anyone else get the feeling it'd be easier and a bit more clear to do it my way?

Camper11 · 11-13-2009, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrifterMage

Ah; found it.

Shuffle Progenitus into your library; the Gravebane ends up on top. You can't choose to have Gravebane shuffled in with the rest.

could you please mention what page the final answer is actually on? lol

GrifterMage · 11-13-2009, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camper11

could you please mention what page the final answer is actually on? lol

It's buried in the context of the discussion, but Condor's posts will give you a good idea of the underlying theory. This one kicks it off.

CarstenHaese · 11-18-2009, 08:02 AM

For the record, here is the newly minted [O] ruling from MTGRULES-L:

> I control a Gravebane Zombie and a Progenitus. You cast Wrath of God. What happens, exactly?

You simultaneously shuffle your library and put Gravebane Zombie on
top. Since the deck is no longer being shuffled after the Zombie is
on top (they're simultaneous, remember) the result is a shuffled
library with Gravebane Zombie on top.

--
Gavin Duggan, L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep

11-12-2009, 04:30 PM	#1
Lordatog Ascended Mage Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 195	Progenitus + Gravebane So, this question was brought up as an aside in a recent topic, but no answer was given and the topic is now locked. If player A controls both Gravebane Zombie and Progenitus and player B casts Wrath of God, where does the zombie wind up? The most reasonable conclusion would seem to be that player A chooses which of the two replacement effects applies first, and can therefore choose whether it ends up on top or gets shuffled in, but I don't know if the rules actually support that - it's not two replacement effects affecting the same event, it's two replacement effects affecting two different events that happened to occur at the same time (I think).

11-13-2009, 02:27 AM	#5
GrifterMage Wizard Mentor Rules Guru Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In the alley you're about to walk past. Posts: 518	Ah; found it. Shuffle Progenitus into your library; the Gravebane ends up on top. You can't choose to have Gravebane shuffled in with the rest. __________________ DCI Level 1 Judge Procrastination is an art form, and I am an artist. Knowledge knows no bounds. And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real. --Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary

11-18-2009, 08:02 AM	#9
CarstenHaese Far Ago And Long Away Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: USA Posts: 2,057	For the record, here is the newly minted [O] ruling from MTGRULES-L: > I control a Gravebane Zombie and a Progenitus. You cast Wrath of God. What happens, exactly? You simultaneously shuffle your library and put Gravebane Zombie on top. Since the deck is no longer being shuffled after the Zombie is on top (they're simultaneous, remember) the result is a shuffled library with Gravebane Zombie on top. -- Gavin Duggan, L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep __________________ MTG Rules Advisor

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11-13-2009, 02:12 AM	#3
Engine Experienced Mage Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 58	Here's a similar discussion that may help: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=144493 Looks like you get to choose the order, and as such, perform their replacement effects in that order.