Hey all. Here's my cube. Everything in it has been printed at uncommon so many familiar cube staples are present but it has a very unique feel. I discuss my work on this cube and use it as an illustrational tool for other cube designers in my articles, found here. The feel of my cube is expressed very well by my friend (and 2011 Rookie of the Year) Matthias:
Uncommons are interesting to play with but I think overall are tricky to make into a cube. The reasons are that uncommons are role players. They aren’t particularly good at forming a curve (that would be commons) and they aren’t so interesting as to spawn archtypes (which is what rares do). Luckily, the fact that uncommons are less streamlined allows for more greed and fun in card selection. For example, the usual cube-include of Forbid has been replaced with Overhwhelming Intellect, an undeniably powerful yet very greedy counterspell.
I have done extensive testing to develop balanced archetypes and mana curves, though the cube remains an ongoing project. I include a few fun build-around-me cards like the Honden cycle and Furnace Celebration. Furthermore, I include large multicolor sections compared to many other cubes in the interest of increasing the number of interesting cards and interactions.
Soltari Monk, Soltari Priest, Condemn, Blood Knight, Pyroclasm, Imperious Perfect, Worldly Tutor, Ancient Tomb, Reanimate, and Fires of Yavimaya have all been in the cube at various times and have all been cut or replaced.
Boneshredder, Vampire Nighthawk, and Necromancy are all in my cube. Pillage, Acidic Slime, and Hellspark Elemental are going to go in as soon as I get them.
I've been thinking about many of the rest, though slots have not opened up for them yet. Sol Ring is way too strong (I already cut Skullclamp and may have to cut Loxodon Warhammer for power level concerns).
There isn't really any one color that's too strong. White is a bit weak, mostly because there isn't much variety in the white uncommons. I've only for in a pair of red X burn spells which seems to be about the right number.
It's been a long time since this has been at the top of the forum. A lot has changed in the cube. Here are my current questions. I'm not sure that they can be solved except through more playtesting, but I'd appreciate your opinions.
Soltari Monk and Soltari Priest are not included. They're plenty strong, of course, but not very interesting/interactive. White Weenie was once overpowered in this cube (due to mana curve issues) but it's since been reigned in. I'm debating their inclusion.
Morphs are completely excluded. I had them in for a while, but there are so few playable ones at uncommon tat they're never a surprise, which seems like half the fun. I'm considering giving them another shot; several are strong enough that it doesn't even matter if you know what they are. I would certainly include Riptide Pilferer, Headhunter, Willbender, Aphetto Exterminator, Riptide Survivor, and Brine Elemental. Other candidates are Whipcorder (seems worse than Nomad Decoy at 3 and also not good enough at WW), Zoetic Cavern (not good without damage on the stack, but increases the uncertainty of a morph's identity), Dwarven Blastminer, Skirk Volcanist, and Karona's Zealot.
I already include Punishing Fire to take advantage of the 20 or so cards that incidentally gain life. Split Second is rarely relevant so it's just more interesting than Sudden Shock, which it replaced. I'm considering the inclusion of Kavu Predator and/or Ajani's Pridemate. I don't think I have enough support for them yet but I'm considering adding in a handful more cards that gain life but have been sitting in the "maybe" pile for a while on power level. Things like Orzhov Guildmage, Azorius Herald, Bottle Gnomes, Survival Cache, Suffer the Past, and so on.
There are a few cards that I'm unconvinced about. They haven't been in for very long so it's hard to judge if they're not good enough or they just haven't had their chance to shine yet. Examples are Frontier Guide, Vile Requiem, Throat Slitter, and Aven Mindcensor.
I'm very interested in this lack of Skullclamp thing you've got happening. You said that there are answers to Baneslayer at common/uncommon as well, but her inclusion would still throw things off due to power. I can see that point, but honestly I feel like Baneslayer is a notch or two above Clamp in the power department. The angel needs nothing to be ridiculously under priced and overly powerful. The artifact, however, needs a token generator or a bunch of X/1's to be broken and without that it's only extremely solid. I don't how differently it played for you, but that's how it plays here all the time. In most aggro decks it's just really good and allows a bit of card advantage here and there when a creature is killed. In other decks that pack something like Elspeth it's completely broken.
I'm very interested in this lack of Skullclamp thing you've got happening.
When Skullclamp was in the cube and your opponent had it, it felt like you were playing against Skullclamp rather than against their deck. In terms of power level it truly dwarfed everything else in the cube.
There is some flexible removal and some ETB effects but all in all my cube is a bit light on artifact removal. I'd rather have artifacts be a little too resilient than be forced to include boring role-fillers. At uncommon there are no sweepers that hit artifacts. There is also not really any tutoring. The decks just aren't streamlined enough to deal with a must-kill artifact. (This is why Loxodon Warhammer was ultimately cut as well.)
If I were to include Skullclamp I would also have to drastically increase the quantity of artifact hate. Doing so would force me to include a lot of boring cards in slots that are now filled with interesting cards. That's more than I'm willing to warp the format in my cube for just one card.
There is some flexible removal and some ETB effects but all in all my cube is a bit light on artifact removal. I'd rather have artifacts be a little too resilient than be forced to include boring role-fillers.
i don't understand what this means. i've never run or played an uncommon cube but it sounds like you knowingly don't run enough artifact hate and skullclamp is too good because of it. i think hitting a better balance of artifact hate would make it playable but not broken. i'm not sure i understand the benefit of running too few answers.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
it sounds like you knowingly don't run enough artifact hate and skullclamp is too good because of it.
Skullclamp is too good.
It's even more too good because I'm not playing quite as much hate as I'd like to. If I wanted more artifact hate I would have to include very narrow cards like Oxidize... things that you wouldn't want to maindeck unless Skullclamp were in the cube.
If I wanted more artifact hate I would have to include very narrow cards like Oxidize... things that you wouldn't want to maindeck unless Skullclamp were in the cube.
or you could run some very good and not at all narrow cards like creeping mold, krosan grip, pillage, and uktabi orangutan. looking through your google docs cube (not my favorite thing to do :p) i'm not seeing any of those.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
or you could run some very good and not at all narrow cards like creeping mold, krosan grip, pillage, and uktabi orangutan. looking through your google docs cube (not my favorite thing to do :p) i'm not seeing any of those.
I took out most of the LD since it's not very fun and aggro doesn't need it (it's already quite strong). Viridian shaman is fine, but not exciting enough that I want two of them. And I'm not any more excited to play Krosan Grip than I am to play Oxidize.
Artifact hate is only a peripheral reason for me not running Skullclamp; the real reason is that it's just too strong compared to the average power level of the cube. Any game where it appears becomes only about Skullclamp. That's not fun or interesting.
Artifact hate is only a peripheral reason for me not running Skullclamp; the real reason is that it's just too strong compared to the average power level of the cube.
but that's a circular argument because its strength is directly related to how much artifact hate is in the cube. the LD attached to creeping mold or pillage is not going to support some kind of horrible LD archetype and those cards are both too good to exclude, in my opinion. if you added more flexible answers, i think skullclamp would be fine. it's not that it's objectively too strong so much as that it's too strong in the environment of your cube, which you have deliberately designed to be weak to skullclamp. which is fine, if that's the environment you and your crew enjoy the most. i would just rather play with clamp and the powerful and flexible answers that exist for it than play with none of them.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
i would just rather play with clamp and the powerful and flexible answers that exist for it than play with none of them.
As would I. Artifact hate isn't only good if your opponent has Skullclamp. And increasing the quantity of other good, playable artifact hate will curb the power-level of Skullclamp as an added bonus.
Compared to uncommons, Skullclamp is objectively too strong. The few uncommons which can compete on power level with Clamp (Sol Ring, Library of Alexandria, etc) are also excluded. Notice that they are all in the top twenty cube cards.
My cube is somewhat light on artifact hate. That is not the reason that Skullclamp is too strong, although this conversation is drifting as though that were the case. Perhaps I will add Creeping Mold and Pillage back in, per your suggestions (thank you). If I do, Skullclamp will still be too strong. In order for Skullclamp to be balanced I would have to increase the levels of instant speed artifact hate to absurd levels.
The reason that Skullclamp and company are too strong is that decks are not streamlined enough to have answers on demand and they are not strong enough to overcome the card advantage of Clamp. The cards individually are just weaker than you're used to in a conventional cube. There are no tutors and the most degenerate combo you'll see in here is Mistmeadow Witch + Firemaw Kavu.
In a conventional cube you still have a chance against an active Skullclamp. In this cube you have an answer, in your hand, right now, or you basically lose. A balanced all-uncommons cube does not include Skullclamp.
There are a lot of cards in the top 20 that aren't objectively too good. Including several other uncommons, that actually placed higher on the list than Skullclamp in their respective areas. The top 20 list doesn't mean "broken". It means they're considered to be the best cards for cubes.
There are a lot of cards in the top 20 that aren't objectively too good. Including several other uncommons, that actually placed higher on the list than Skullclamp in their respective areas. The top 20 list doesn't mean "broken". It means they're considered to be the best cards for cubes.
I also just explained specifically why Skullclamp is too strong for my cube.
No cards in the top 20 overall cube cards are in my cube, not even the uncommons. They are all too strong. Many of the top 20 from a particular color are, but I don't think many would argue that Eternal Witness is as strong as Skullclamp.
I don't think many would argue that Eternal Witness is as strong as Skullclamp.
I would argue this. Skullclamp is far from the broken spell you're making it out to be and I can't imagine it gets that much better in a cube that only allows uncommon cards. As QQ said, if you're not running it because you and your crew found it unfun or whatever, that's fine, but it's far from overpowered.
I just can't grasp how it's autowin unless you've also got one of those few token makers you listed. And even then, it's not near as bad as having it with something like Bitterblossom or Elspeth. On an X/2 creature it plays the way it was supposed to, not the way that got it banned. +1/-1 and if it dies, you draw two cards. So your bear becomes a 3/1 that your opponent doesn't really want to kill. I get that Skullclamp is good, even great, but it's far from broken unless you pair it with a repeatable token strategy.
And it's like these guys here said, if Skullclamp is so amazing, it's because your cube is built to make it amazing. You don't have to include stuff like Oxidize to combat it, there are plenty of spells that are great tools for problem artifacts that would be right at home here, IMO.
I don't know, though. I've never played with an only uncommon cube before, but I'm really having trouble believing that Skullclamp is so much more busted in the format.
people do successfully run skullclamp in c/u cubes, right? does the addition of commons balance the clamp out somehow? i'm willing to accept that the nature of uncommon cubes makes it too powerful because i have no experience running or playing an uncommon-only cube. but it just seems so unlikely that i require further information to be convinced.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
people do successfully run skullclamp in c/u cubes, right? does the addition of commons balance the clamp out somehow? i'm willing to accept that the nature of uncommon cubes makes it too powerful because i have no experience running or playing an uncommon-only cube. but it just seems so unlikely that i require further information to be convinced.
Very few people have experience running an uncommon only cube; as far as I know I have the only one. I took it on as a challenge (there are already plenty of ordinary cubes around here) and have since maintained it because it's just quirky enough to be a blast. For example, there are so many ETB effects that the best green card is Deadwood Treefolk.
It could be that commons balance out Skullclamp. They make a big difference in terms of cube power level. I'm also more concerned than most with balancing a cube; I don't like it when there are obvious first picks.
As far as demonstrating to you that it's overpowered I don't know what more I can say. We've tested it. It's bonkers. If you need more convincing, make your way to Minneapolis. You can draft my cube and get a feel for yourself.
I have an uncommon cube as well, I posted about it here, but it sort of fell flat, so I just build it with some friends help. I definitely agree about not putting in clamp. As one of the most broken cards in the game, it should not be an uncommon, and due to the lack of tutors, or really flexible removal, you need to up the artifact hate to an absurd level. You need to make sure that every deck has 2-4 ways main deck to deal with this stupid card that may or may not show up. Oh and black? Leave.
It's amazing how different an all uncommon cube must be from every other cube I've drafted.
I realize that you're being sarcastic, but yes, it is. Compared to a conventional cube the power level of this one is much lower. I've also put a lot of effort into making the power level homogeneous. The strongest cards are not that much better than the weakest cards, which is a characteristic not present in ordinary cubes. Skullclamp, which you may not consider to be that much above the curve, is.
Show up here and we'll draft it. Or, whip up your own copy and try it yourself! There are only a handful of cards in here worth anything. You've probably got the makings for the whole cube sitting around. Seriously, give it a try. I think you will be surprised by what you find.
people do successfully run skullclamp in c/u cubes, right? does the addition of commons balance the clamp out somehow? i'm willing to accept that the nature of uncommon cubes makes it too powerful because i have no experience running or playing an uncommon-only cube. but it just seems so unlikely that i require further information to be convinced.
Not really. Klug pulled Skullclamp from his C/U cube for power reasons too. I honestly can't think of any single card I'd draft in my U/C cube over Skullclamp and I have a goodly amount of artifact removal. It's never wrong to draft Skullclamp because on the very slim chance that you don't play it (yeah, right!) you're better counterdrafting it on your first pick than passing it.
C/U cubes are all about the dudes bashing in. Skullclamp makes almost every trade a bad proposition for the non-clamp player and they just draw more good guys off it.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
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I have done extensive testing to develop balanced archetypes and mana curves, though the cube remains an ongoing project. I include a few fun build-around-me cards like the Honden cycle and Furnace Celebration. Furthermore, I include large multicolor sections compared to many other cubes in the interest of increasing the number of interesting cards and interactions.
A few cards are omitted for balance reasons: Sol Ring, Clamp, Vial, Library, Mana Drain, Land Tax, Strip Mine, Maze of Ith, and Warhammer.
It is exactly 360 cards, and does not grow as new sets are released. The complete list and visual spoiler are public on Google Docs HERE.
Soltari Monk, Soltari Priest, Condemn, Blood Knight, Pyroclasm, Imperious Perfect, Worldly Tutor, Ancient Tomb, Reanimate, and Fires of Yavimaya have all been in the cube at various times and have all been cut or replaced.
Boneshredder, Vampire Nighthawk, and Necromancy are all in my cube. Pillage, Acidic Slime, and Hellspark Elemental are going to go in as soon as I get them.
I've been thinking about many of the rest, though slots have not opened up for them yet. Sol Ring is way too strong (I already cut Skullclamp and may have to cut Loxodon Warhammer for power level concerns).
Soltari Monk and Soltari Priest are not included. They're plenty strong, of course, but not very interesting/interactive. White Weenie was once overpowered in this cube (due to mana curve issues) but it's since been reigned in. I'm debating their inclusion.
Morphs are completely excluded. I had them in for a while, but there are so few playable ones at uncommon tat they're never a surprise, which seems like half the fun. I'm considering giving them another shot; several are strong enough that it doesn't even matter if you know what they are. I would certainly include Riptide Pilferer, Headhunter, Willbender, Aphetto Exterminator, Riptide Survivor, and Brine Elemental. Other candidates are Whipcorder (seems worse than Nomad Decoy at 3 and also not good enough at WW), Zoetic Cavern (not good without damage on the stack, but increases the uncertainty of a morph's identity), Dwarven Blastminer, Skirk Volcanist, and Karona's Zealot.
I already include Punishing Fire to take advantage of the 20 or so cards that incidentally gain life. Split Second is rarely relevant so it's just more interesting than Sudden Shock, which it replaced. I'm considering the inclusion of Kavu Predator and/or Ajani's Pridemate. I don't think I have enough support for them yet but I'm considering adding in a handful more cards that gain life but have been sitting in the "maybe" pile for a while on power level. Things like Orzhov Guildmage, Azorius Herald, Bottle Gnomes, Survival Cache, Suffer the Past, and so on.
There are a few cards that I'm unconvinced about. They haven't been in for very long so it's hard to judge if they're not good enough or they just haven't had their chance to shine yet. Examples are Frontier Guide, Vile Requiem, Throat Slitter, and Aven Mindcensor.
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When Skullclamp was in the cube and your opponent had it, it felt like you were playing against Skullclamp rather than against their deck. In terms of power level it truly dwarfed everything else in the cube.
There are a handful of one-toughness creatures, not to mention the cards with which it is truly degenerate: Jotun Owl Keeper, Cloudgoat Ranger, Spectral Procession, Reassembling Skeleton, Honden of Life's Web, Rakdos Guildmage, Supply & Demand, Sprouting Thrinax. Nothing else in here comes close to that level of brokenness.
There is some flexible removal and some ETB effects but all in all my cube is a bit light on artifact removal. I'd rather have artifacts be a little too resilient than be forced to include boring role-fillers. At uncommon there are no sweepers that hit artifacts. There is also not really any tutoring. The decks just aren't streamlined enough to deal with a must-kill artifact. (This is why Loxodon Warhammer was ultimately cut as well.)
If I were to include Skullclamp I would also have to drastically increase the quantity of artifact hate. Doing so would force me to include a lot of boring cards in slots that are now filled with interesting cards. That's more than I'm willing to warp the format in my cube for just one card.
i don't understand what this means. i've never run or played an uncommon cube but it sounds like you knowingly don't run enough artifact hate and skullclamp is too good because of it. i think hitting a better balance of artifact hate would make it playable but not broken. i'm not sure i understand the benefit of running too few answers.
Skullclamp is too good.
It's even more too good because I'm not playing quite as much hate as I'd like to. If I wanted more artifact hate I would have to include very narrow cards like Oxidize... things that you wouldn't want to maindeck unless Skullclamp were in the cube.
or you could run some very good and not at all narrow cards like creeping mold, krosan grip, pillage, and uktabi orangutan. looking through your google docs cube (not my favorite thing to do :p) i'm not seeing any of those.
I took out most of the LD since it's not very fun and aggro doesn't need it (it's already quite strong). Viridian shaman is fine, but not exciting enough that I want two of them. And I'm not any more excited to play Krosan Grip than I am to play Oxidize.
Artifact hate is only a peripheral reason for me not running Skullclamp; the real reason is that it's just too strong compared to the average power level of the cube. Any game where it appears becomes only about Skullclamp. That's not fun or interesting.
but that's a circular argument because its strength is directly related to how much artifact hate is in the cube. the LD attached to creeping mold or pillage is not going to support some kind of horrible LD archetype and those cards are both too good to exclude, in my opinion. if you added more flexible answers, i think skullclamp would be fine. it's not that it's objectively too strong so much as that it's too strong in the environment of your cube, which you have deliberately designed to be weak to skullclamp. which is fine, if that's the environment you and your crew enjoy the most. i would just rather play with clamp and the powerful and flexible answers that exist for it than play with none of them.
As would I. Artifact hate isn't only good if your opponent has Skullclamp. And increasing the quantity of other good, playable artifact hate will curb the power-level of Skullclamp as an added bonus.
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Compared to uncommons, Skullclamp is objectively too strong. The few uncommons which can compete on power level with Clamp (Sol Ring, Library of Alexandria, etc) are also excluded. Notice that they are all in the top twenty cube cards.
My cube is somewhat light on artifact hate. That is not the reason that Skullclamp is too strong, although this conversation is drifting as though that were the case. Perhaps I will add Creeping Mold and Pillage back in, per your suggestions (thank you). If I do, Skullclamp will still be too strong. In order for Skullclamp to be balanced I would have to increase the levels of instant speed artifact hate to absurd levels.
The reason that Skullclamp and company are too strong is that decks are not streamlined enough to have answers on demand and they are not strong enough to overcome the card advantage of Clamp. The cards individually are just weaker than you're used to in a conventional cube. There are no tutors and the most degenerate combo you'll see in here is Mistmeadow Witch + Firemaw Kavu.
In a conventional cube you still have a chance against an active Skullclamp. In this cube you have an answer, in your hand, right now, or you basically lose. A balanced all-uncommons cube does not include Skullclamp.
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I also just explained specifically why Skullclamp is too strong for my cube.
No cards in the top 20 overall cube cards are in my cube, not even the uncommons. They are all too strong. Many of the top 20 from a particular color are, but I don't think many would argue that Eternal Witness is as strong as Skullclamp.
I would argue this. Skullclamp is far from the broken spell you're making it out to be and I can't imagine it gets that much better in a cube that only allows uncommon cards. As QQ said, if you're not running it because you and your crew found it unfun or whatever, that's fine, but it's far from overpowered.
I just can't grasp how it's autowin unless you've also got one of those few token makers you listed. And even then, it's not near as bad as having it with something like Bitterblossom or Elspeth. On an X/2 creature it plays the way it was supposed to, not the way that got it banned. +1/-1 and if it dies, you draw two cards. So your bear becomes a 3/1 that your opponent doesn't really want to kill. I get that Skullclamp is good, even great, but it's far from broken unless you pair it with a repeatable token strategy.
And it's like these guys here said, if Skullclamp is so amazing, it's because your cube is built to make it amazing. You don't have to include stuff like Oxidize to combat it, there are plenty of spells that are great tools for problem artifacts that would be right at home here, IMO.
I don't know, though. I've never played with an only uncommon cube before, but I'm really having trouble believing that Skullclamp is so much more busted in the format.
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Very few people have experience running an uncommon only cube; as far as I know I have the only one. I took it on as a challenge (there are already plenty of ordinary cubes around here) and have since maintained it because it's just quirky enough to be a blast. For example, there are so many ETB effects that the best green card is Deadwood Treefolk.
It could be that commons balance out Skullclamp. They make a big difference in terms of cube power level. I'm also more concerned than most with balancing a cube; I don't like it when there are obvious first picks.
As far as demonstrating to you that it's overpowered I don't know what more I can say. We've tested it. It's bonkers. If you need more convincing, make your way to Minneapolis. You can draft my cube and get a feel for yourself.
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I realize that you're being sarcastic, but yes, it is. Compared to a conventional cube the power level of this one is much lower. I've also put a lot of effort into making the power level homogeneous. The strongest cards are not that much better than the weakest cards, which is a characteristic not present in ordinary cubes. Skullclamp, which you may not consider to be that much above the curve, is.
Show up here and we'll draft it. Or, whip up your own copy and try it yourself! There are only a handful of cards in here worth anything. You've probably got the makings for the whole cube sitting around. Seriously, give it a try. I think you will be surprised by what you find.
Not really. Klug pulled Skullclamp from his C/U cube for power reasons too. I honestly can't think of any single card I'd draft in my U/C cube over Skullclamp and I have a goodly amount of artifact removal. It's never wrong to draft Skullclamp because on the very slim chance that you don't play it (yeah, right!) you're better counterdrafting it on your first pick than passing it.
C/U cubes are all about the dudes bashing in. Skullclamp makes almost every trade a bad proposition for the non-clamp player and they just draw more good guys off it.
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