So I have been playing around with this list for a while, and I think I finally have it where I want it. It's kind of budget-esque (mostly on lands), but it manages to be fast enough and effective. You can have a lot of fun reanimating people. Evoking Reveillark and then returning him to play with Karmic Guide or Teneb is pretty silly. Any criticism is appreciated.
UPDATE 10/19/10: This is the most updated list. Any further updates will take place below the actual list. Thanks.
EDIT: 1/18/2011: I was looking through this deck online, and realized it was far different from the current list I run. Nice and updated now.
EDIT: 3/10/2011: Well, here's the latest list. I got some bigger, scarier dudes in here. It's working much better.
EDIT: 3/20/2011: Little shorter interval. Just a few minor changes here. Fierce Empath is a boss, and Skullclamp is too good to ignore. Going back to my roots as well and using Sword of Light and Shadow over Sword of Body and Mind. The lifegain isn't good, but the creature return is.
EDIT 6/27/2011: To anyone who has read this list, this will be my final post here. I am changing the deck over to Karador, Ghost Chieftain, and I thought a new thread was needed. Thanks for all of your support and critiques, and the new list can be found here. It's been an absolute pleasure, and I hope to keep hearing from you all in the new thread.
UPDATE 3/28/10: So after playing against a few friends (Balthor the Defiled, Kami of the Crescent Moon, and Atogatog) in several games, I've found Unmake to be decidedly underwhelming, and I'm thinking of replacing it with Greater Good or Liliana Vess or if I feel like spending a bit more, Survival of the Fittest, but any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks!
-Ambition's Cost could be decent card draw here, if you find you need more.
-I don't think I have ever played Regrowth in a deck without Ancestral Recall. I'd just nix Regrowth for something more immediately useful/never dead on its own.
-I'd find space for Chainer's Edict.
-Yawgmoth's Will is just too powerful to ignore imho.
-Ambition's Cost could be decent card draw here, if you find you need more.
-I don't think I have ever played Regrowth in a deck without Ancestral Recall. I'd just nix Regrowth for something more immediately useful/never dead on its own.
-I'd find space for Chainer's Edict.
-Yawgmoth's Will is just too powerful to ignore imho.
Agree on Yawgmoths will cuz i play one in my teneb deck but disagree on Regrowth. That card is never a dead draw. EDH games go WAY too long for it to be close to a dead draw
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On Emrakul, the Aeons Torn:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galspanic
#1 - What's the dumbest idea you ever had?
#2 - 15/15 for 15?
#1 - Make it dumber
#2 - Give it protection from removal and counter?
#1 - DUMBER!
#2 - Add Timewalk?
#1 - DAMN IT MAN, I SAID DUMB!! DUMB !!!
#2 - It destroys everything when it attacks.... And wait, I have a friend who plays mill decks... I want to beat him too.
#1 - Excellent!
I run Survival in my Teneb and it is indeed stupid, but I think I've got more creatures than you. If you really want to get the most out of it, you might think about replacing some of your spells with guys that have similar effects (Acidic Slime for Vindicate, Magus of the Disk for Nev-Disk, Wood Elves for Signets, etc.) - it's not a bad idea even if you don't spring for Surivival, since it's more targets for all your reanimation.
How's having Doran in your list working out for you? I don't see him having a massive effect on how your deck runs, unless your meta has Ball Lightning.dec in it or something, and he's not your general so his beating for 5 around turn 4 is kind of underwhelming. I'd make him a Crime // Punishment, which is practically a requirement with Teneb.
Agree on Yawgmoths will cuz i play one in my teneb deck but disagree on Regrowth. That card is never a dead draw. EDH games go WAY too long for it to be close to a dead draw
I guess sub-optimal would be a better choice of words than "dead." If I have a choice of drawing X, where X is a card that is as useful on turns 2 through the end of the game, I would generally rather draw X than Regrowth as X is going to cost effectively :1mana::symg: less than whatever I regrow. Basically, I wouldn't play Regrowth in EDH for the same reasons I wouldn't play it in Legacy, even taken into account game breaking singletons. To each their own, of course.
Yawgmoth's Will is certainly an idea, and I think I'm gonna keep Regrowth. Survival is just expensive for me, but I will certainly look into Crime // Punishment.
@ Deadmanseven: Doran is just nice with Reveillark, same with Phantom Nishoba. I was considering putting Knight of the Reliquary in instead of Doran, since she can be reanimated in the same fashion (right? her "gets +1/+1" ability is only when she's in play, right?). Then I'd consider Realms Uncharted as well, in place of Sylvan Scrying perhaps. Hmm...
Also, any take on the Greater Good vs Liliana Vess? Although, now it's looking less likely to be either. Any other suggestions?
Greater Good is an excellent anti-creature theft card in addition to being good on its own. Control Magic effects are very popular in EDH, and rightfully so. No thoughts on Liliana.
I'd go with Liliana out of that group. Repeatable tutors are pretty good, and occasionally you can threaten the table with the ultimate. Lord of Extinction really needs a Fling effect or Altar of Dementia to be threatening, so it's nothing special in Teneb, although it's probably better than Mortivore. Life//Death is a bad Reanimate stapled to a terrible Rude Awakening, so it's an easy cut. Thornling is just a random mana-intensive fatty, but could replace Mystic Enforcer. Crime//Punishment is really good, I'd probably play it over Mournwhelk or Night's Whisper.
ALSO: How does everyone feel about Eldrazi Inscription? I feel as though that spells death as soon as it hits play, but that is a DAMN grief-y thing to do. *shrug* Any thoughts?
Deck is finished for the moment. Liliana took that last slot. Time to see how she does.
Nice deck. Sorry for the lack of links, I'm posting from my phone while waiting on an oil change. I'll add the links when I get the chance. First in response to your last post:
I like Glory more, but then I have a lot more field time with Glory. One benefit is that she(?) likes being in the graveyard. I guess the question is to you want to avoid sweepers or Exiling? Given this is very recursion based, I think avoiding Exile is the bigger concern. Also more mana friendly.
I'm not sure what to drop for Genesis, but he(?) really is terrific. How long does Reya actually stay in play for you?
Yes. Neither has a way to get past chump blockers, and Lord of Extinction should nearly always be lethal if he gets in.
Iona could be very nasty, but I think you'd want some more reanimation effects and possibly Entomb/Buried Alive. Those would be good tutors for you regardless.
As much as I love Spiritmonger, you don't have many ways to get him past chump blockers. Have you looked at Vulturous Zombie? It gets big fast, and flies. Admittedly, it does have a giant target on it's head, and there isn't much it can do about that.
I'm gonna answer these in reverse order, but the amount of effort you put into this is greatly appreciated Mammon. Okay, here goes:
~ Riftstone is worth looking into, and I don't really like Filth, or Urborg for that matter. I rarely get color screwed, so we'll see about both those lands (however, with Urborg out and Portal in the yard, I'd literally never be color screwed).
~ Nantuko Monastery is another one worthy of looking at, but the lack of colored mana makes it just an "eh" land. The FS makes it worthy of a second look though.
~ Monger is really wonderful, but Oversoul of Dusk could replace him (though I love him so). Not wild about the zombie, though he is good.
~ Vindicate and Pulse are both cards I don't want to spend the money on. >.<
~ Divinity can actually stick around long enough, and if he dies I have so many ways of getting him back. See above for what might get cut for Oversoul.
~ Terravore is one critter I have actually found to be underwhelming. Maybe he'll get cut for something more useful (read: Vulturous Zombie or Oversoul).
~ Sledge is excellent. The +2 bonus to toughness is more useful in my opinion than the extra +1 to power.
~ Iona will probably not make it in here. I don't wanna toss in any more reanimate effects and thus she loses her effectiveness.
~ Alright, Lord it is. Much obliged for a concise and efficient answer.
~ Boneshredder stays (because recurring removal is AWESOME) but you're probably right about Nighthawk. Out he comes, and will be replaced by one of the others.
~ Reya actually sticks around a while, hence why I'm not sure I need Genesis (between Volrath's, Reya, and Debtors' Knell, I bring a lot of things back).
~ So you recommend Glory? Hm. Alright, I'll see how I feel about her(?).
Thank you so much for your help. Changes are going in now.
Yes, that's the idea of using Riftstone and Urborg. And to make it even more sure you may want to trade out Expedition Map for Weathered Wayfarer. Basically a reusable Expedition Map, provided you have less lands than at least one opponent. And that shouldn't be terribly uncommon.
Yeah, tapping for just colorless is frustrating, and if you're worried about color then he may not be worth it. But a 4/4 FSer is nothing to sneeze at, and can get the job done.
*nod* May be the right call. If you had more evasion granters, like Brawn, then there would be no way you'd want to let go of Spiritmonger.
Thats pretty much what I thought. At least Maelstrom Pulse should drop in price once it rotates!
Cool. I imagine an 8/8 beater is damn nice to have and as long as he isn't Exiled you can bring him back.
Then that may be your best cut. I think Terravore can be fantastic, but the deck has to be more dedicated to getting lands in the 'yard.
Sure, I can totally see that. But do you ever have issues with the extra color requirements?
A little, but she is still a house against most decks. May be worth it for that alone.
Ahh, well in that case you may not need him. Though he does continue to recur things even if you get hit by a sweeper like Akroma's Wrath.
In this deck, yeah, I think so. Especially if you're worried about color screw. Deathless Angel needs a lot of white mana.
If you're just using it as a sac outlet, You might want to replace Miren, the Moaning Well with High Market. You only gain 1 life, but you don't have to keep any mana up to use it.
With so many methods of recursion I strongly suggest you at least try out Entomb. It can fetch the fatty of your choice in response to Teneb smacking someone, it can put Glory in the 'yard for surprise Protection, and all types of fun.
Also, I like throwing in 1 of the Eldrazi, just for another fatty, and to prevent any milling shenanigans. In this case probably Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. (And you can fetch him with Entomb in response to someone trying to exile your graveyard! )
Fleshbag has been a repeatable edict effect. Don't really want to drop him, Dr. Teeth.
Mammon, thank you again for your excellent suggestions. High Market is absolutely the better call. What do you think would be a good cut fir Necrotic Sliver? I have an Emrakul lying around, but no Kozilek. Also, Brawn is an excellent car that may find a home. Now I just need to find these cards. >.<
Mindcensor is quite good. Mournwhelk can probably be dropped, but Shambler has proved to be a pseudo vindicate. Maybe he could be dropped for necrotic? That might work out better. Hm. I shall have to look into that.
Mindcensor is quite good. Mournwhelk can probably be dropped, but Shambler has proved to be a pseudo vindicate. Maybe he could be dropped for necrotic? That might work out better. Hm. I shall have to look into that.
That is exactly why I recommended the Mold Shambler. I don't know which of the two will be better for you, but they fill the same roll (except that Necrotic Sliver can hit any permanent).
And Dr. Teeth, yes, I noticed that right after I posted. You're just too darn quick with your replies for my edit to count!
Well, the changes are made to the list (made them before I passed out last night). Let me know if there's anything else we all think should be in there.
EDIT: Oh, and I have taken down Emrakul. Multiple times in one game. Reanimate effects FTW (Fleshbag Marauder was the star player that game).
EDIT 2: What should I take out for Urborg and Riftstone? Oh, and Monastery I guess. One basic of each? Would that work? Also, how am I gonna get Riftstone into my grave?
Then I run into the problem of what to cut. I really don't have a clue as to how l can get the Portal in the yard. Harvest is a good suggestion, but does anyone have any other suggestions?
Well right now you can get the Riftstone Portal into your grave yard by hitting it with your own Acidic Slime, Angel of Despair, or Necrotic Sliver. I just notice you aren't running any LD, not even Strip Mine or Wasteland. I think you could probably drop the Temple of the False God for a swamp, since you really want at least one in play. And I don't see the colorless acceleration being as important to you as the land type. Also consider a Strip Mine, since it really is terrific to have repeatable LD...though you can probably get by by recurring Acidic Slime.
I can see Worm Harvest, but I have say I'm still pushing for Entomb. Of course, that's assuming you have one. One tutor and bam, all the white and green mana you could want!
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UPDATE 10/19/10: This is the most updated list. Any further updates will take place below the actual list. Thanks.
EDIT: 1/18/2011: I was looking through this deck online, and realized it was far different from the current list I run. Nice and updated now.
EDIT: 3/10/2011: Well, here's the latest list. I got some bigger, scarier dudes in here. It's working much better.
EDIT: 3/20/2011: Little shorter interval. Just a few minor changes here. Fierce Empath is a boss, and Skullclamp is too good to ignore. Going back to my roots as well and using Sword of Light and Shadow over Sword of Body and Mind. The lifegain isn't good, but the creature return is.
EDIT 6/27/2011: To anyone who has read this list, this will be my final post here. I am changing the deck over to Karador, Ghost Chieftain, and I thought a new thread was needed. Thanks for all of your support and critiques, and the new list can be found here. It's been an absolute pleasure, and I hope to keep hearing from you all in the new thread.
1 Teneb, the Harvester
Game Winners
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Divinity of Pride
1 Genesis Wave
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Lord of Extinction
1 Sorin Markov
Creature Removal
1 Bone Shredder
1 Damnation
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fleshbag Maruder
1 Path to Exile
1 Shriekmaw
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Rout
Non-Creature Removal
1 Acidic Slime
1 Angel of Despair
1 Archon of Justice
1 Austere Command
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Mortify
1 Necrotic Sliver
1 Oblation
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Putrefy
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Terastodon
Recursion
1 Debtors' Knell
1 Eternal Witness
1 Karmic Guide
1 Praetor's Council
1 Reveillark
1 Sun Titan
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Defense of the Heart
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Fierce Empath
1 Tooth and Nail
Draw
1 Harmonize
1 Mind's Eye
1 Night's Whisper
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Sylvan Library
Mana Ramp/Fixing
1 Coalition Relic
1 Cultivate
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Farseek
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Mirari's Wake
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Sol Ring
1 Yavimaya Elder
Equipment
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Seedborn Muse
Lands
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Fetid Heath
5 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 High Market
1 Jund Panorama
1 Krosan Verge
1 Naya Panorama
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Plains
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Stirring Wildwood
6 Swamp
1 Tainted Field
1 Tainted Wood
1 Temple Garden
1 Temple of the False God
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vesuva
1 Wooded Bastion
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Some crude thoughts:
-Ambition's Cost could be decent card draw here, if you find you need more.
-I don't think I have ever played Regrowth in a deck without Ancestral Recall. I'd just nix Regrowth for something more immediately useful/never dead on its own.
-I'd find space for Chainer's Edict.
-Yawgmoth's Will is just too powerful to ignore imho.
Agree on Yawgmoths will cuz i play one in my teneb deck but disagree on Regrowth. That card is never a dead draw. EDH games go WAY too long for it to be close to a dead draw
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galspanic
#1 - What's the dumbest idea you ever had?
#2 - 15/15 for 15?
#1 - Make it dumber
#2 - Give it protection from removal and counter?
#1 - DUMBER!
#2 - Add Timewalk?
#1 - DAMN IT MAN, I SAID DUMB!! DUMB !!!
#2 - It destroys everything when it attacks.... And wait, I have a friend who plays mill decks... I want to beat him too.
#1 - Excellent!
How's having Doran in your list working out for you? I don't see him having a massive effect on how your deck runs, unless your meta has Ball Lightning.dec in it or something, and he's not your general so his beating for 5 around turn 4 is kind of underwhelming. I'd make him a Crime // Punishment, which is practically a requirement with Teneb.
Erebos B | Ghost Council WB | Grimgrin UB | Jhoira UR
Jor Kadeen RW | Melek UR | Mimeoplasm GUB | Rasputin WU
Savra BG | Sisay GW | Teneb BGW | Thada Adel U | Wort BR
I draft and play EDH. If a Standard player can't understand who a card is for, it's probably for me.
I also write things about good films.
I guess sub-optimal would be a better choice of words than "dead." If I have a choice of drawing X, where X is a card that is as useful on turns 2 through the end of the game, I would generally rather draw X than Regrowth as X is going to cost effectively :1mana::symg: less than whatever I regrow. Basically, I wouldn't play Regrowth in EDH for the same reasons I wouldn't play it in Legacy, even taken into account game breaking singletons. To each their own, of course.
@ Deadmanseven: Doran is just nice with Reveillark, same with Phantom Nishoba. I was considering putting Knight of the Reliquary in instead of Doran, since she can be reanimated in the same fashion (right? her "gets +1/+1" ability is only when she's in play, right?). Then I'd consider Realms Uncharted as well, in place of Sylvan Scrying perhaps. Hmm...
Also, any take on the Greater Good vs Liliana Vess? Although, now it's looking less likely to be either. Any other suggestions?
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Also, does Crime//Punishment count as one card or two?
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Teneb, the Harvester: Let there be life!
Drafting Aggro in the Cube: A Primer for Beginners
ALSO: How does everyone feel about Eldrazi Inscription? I feel as though that spells death as soon as it hits play, but that is a DAMN grief-y thing to do. *shrug* Any thoughts?
Deck is finished for the moment. Liliana took that last slot. Time to see how she does.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
~Should I keep Deathless Angel, or have Glory take that spot?
~What do I remove for Genesis (if anything, not sure how I feel about him)?
~Saffi Eriksdotter, Solemn Simalcrum, and Duplicant want to be in this deck so Reveillark has more to play with. What do I cut?
~Would Lord of Extinction be better than Mortivore?
~Is Iona worthy of a slot here?
Any answers to the above questions would be lovely. Thanks!
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Sorry for the lack of links, I'm posting from my phone while waiting on an oil change. I'll add the links when I get the chance.First in response to your last post:~ Riftstone is worth looking into, and I don't really like Filth, or Urborg for that matter. I rarely get color screwed, so we'll see about both those lands (however, with Urborg out and Portal in the yard, I'd literally never be color screwed).
~ Nantuko Monastery is another one worthy of looking at, but the lack of colored mana makes it just an "eh" land. The FS makes it worthy of a second look though.
~ Monger is really wonderful, but Oversoul of Dusk could replace him (though I love him so). Not wild about the zombie, though he is good.
~ Vindicate and Pulse are both cards I don't want to spend the money on. >.<
~ Divinity can actually stick around long enough, and if he dies I have so many ways of getting him back. See above for what might get cut for Oversoul.
~ Terravore is one critter I have actually found to be underwhelming. Maybe he'll get cut for something more useful (read: Vulturous Zombie or Oversoul).
~ Sledge is excellent. The +2 bonus to toughness is more useful in my opinion than the extra +1 to power.
~ Iona will probably not make it in here. I don't wanna toss in any more reanimate effects and thus she loses her effectiveness.
~ Alright, Lord it is. Much obliged for a concise and efficient answer.
~ Boneshredder stays (because recurring removal is AWESOME) but you're probably right about Nighthawk. Out he comes, and will be replaced by one of the others.
~ Reya actually sticks around a while, hence why I'm not sure I need Genesis (between Volrath's, Reya, and Debtors' Knell, I bring a lot of things back).
~ So you recommend Glory? Hm. Alright, I'll see how I feel about her(?).
Thank you so much for your help. Changes are going in now.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
If you're just using it as a sac outlet, You might want to replace Miren, the Moaning Well with High Market. You only gain 1 life, but you don't have to keep any mana up to use it.
With so many methods of recursion I strongly suggest you at least try out Entomb. It can fetch the fatty of your choice in response to Teneb smacking someone, it can put Glory in the 'yard for surprise Protection, and all types of fun.
Also, I like throwing in 1 of the Eldrazi, just for another fatty, and to prevent any milling shenanigans. In this case probably Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. (And you can fetch him with Entomb in response to someone trying to exile your graveyard! )
Mammon, thank you again for your excellent suggestions. High Market is absolutely the better call. What do you think would be a good cut fir Necrotic Sliver? I have an Emrakul lying around, but no Kozilek. Also, Brawn is an excellent car that may find a home. Now I just need to find these cards. >.<
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Well, glancing over the list the first things that jump out are the Mold Shamabler or the Mournwhelk.
And I suggest Kozilek because he is the easiest to kill if you're hit with Bribery. Do you think you could take down a stolen Emrakul?
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
That is exactly why I recommended the Mold Shambler. I don't know which of the two will be better for you, but they fill the same roll (except that Necrotic Sliver can hit any permanent).
And Dr. Teeth, yes, I noticed that right after I posted. You're just too darn quick with your replies for my edit to count!
EDIT: Oh, and I have taken down Emrakul. Multiple times in one game. Reanimate effects FTW (Fleshbag Marauder was the star player that game).
EDIT 2: What should I take out for Urborg and Riftstone? Oh, and Monastery I guess. One basic of each? Would that work? Also, how am I gonna get Riftstone into my grave?
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
I can see Worm Harvest, but I have say I'm still pushing for Entomb. Of course, that's assuming you have one. One tutor and bam, all the white and green mana you could want!