I'm pondering over an idea since a while. To get things into motion I present "The Elder Dragons - Reloaded":
Palladia-Mors :2mana::symr::symr::symg::symg::symw::symw:
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Flying, trample
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay :symr::symg::symw:. If you do, Palladia-Mors deals 3 damage to each creature you don't control.
If a source would deal damage to you, it deals half that much damage instead, rounded down.
7/7
Chromium :2mana::symw::symw::symu::symu::symb::symb:
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay :symw::symu::symb:. If you do, return target artifact card from a graveyard to the battlefield under your control.
Chromium gets +1/+1 for each artifact you control.
7/7
Nicol Bolas :2mana::symu::symu::symb::symb::symr::symr:
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay :symu::symb::symr:. If you do, destroy target creature.
Whenever Nicol Bolas deals damage to an opponent, that player discards his or her hand.
7/7
Vaevictis Asmadi :2mana::symb::symb::symr::symr::symg::symg:
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Flying, haste
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay :symb::symr::symg:. If you do, Vaevictis Asmadi gets +7/+7 until end of turn.
Whenever Vaevictis Asmadi attacks, the defending player sacrifices a land.
7/7
Arcades Sabboth :2mana::symg::symg::symw::symw::symu::symu:
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Flying, vigilance
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay :symg::symw::symu:. If you do, gain 7 life.
Untapped creatures you control are indestructible.
7/7
I'd like comments on their power level being appropriate, as well as their "splashiness". Are they fitting their colors/original idea?
I tried to keep the original cost and p/t as well as the existance of an "upkeep cost" - just being a bonus this time around.
Also I'd appreciate any storyline-versed person to sum up how these are characterised in the books/comics - and which aren't at all. (I'm not so much looking for "A was friends with B, enemy with C", but "A was loyal/arrogant/treacherous/sadistic/...") Thanks.
Palladia-Mors - Have another look at the triggered ability cost you put down there. I'm kinda iffy about the damage ability as it is generally out of flavour for green, but it works within the bounds of the pie so we'll stick with it.
Chromium - Quite nice in an Esper deck. The P/T boost seems very 'win-more', whilst the other ability is the one which looks more interesting to me.
Nicol Bolas - Yep, this works very nicely.
Vaevictis Asmadi - Like Chromium, it looks like the P/T boost is just overkill. It'll eventually grind down any defences they might've had though.
Arcades Sabboth - Don't see much blue influence here, besides possibly untapping your own stuff, but that's okay. It's very strong, and if you can cast it you really deserve to get that kind of effect.
Overall I like the make over and powering up you've given to these old favourites. Very nice and quite balanced.
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Gaymer
Custom Card / Set Reviewer
When reviewing custom cards / sets, I look for (a) flavour, (b) function, and (c) cohesiveness, generally through a risk focus.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay WUB. If you do, search your library for an artifact card, put that card onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.
Chromium gets +1/+1 for each artifact on the battlefield.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay BRG. If you do, Vaevictis Asmadi deals 7 damage divided as you choose among any number of target creatures.
1, Exile a creature card from a graveyard: Regenerate target nonlegendary creature.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay RGW. If you do, put a 3/3 colorless Dragon Spawn creature token with haste onto the battlefield.
Whenever Palladia-Mors attacks, attacking creatures gain trample until end of turn.
[7/7]
How are the two above dragons even remotely close to a similar power level?
Your Arcades Sabboth is INSANELY good... remove the draw effect and it becomes reasonable... (alternatively change the draw to 1 card and remove the life gain...)
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(U/B) is :symbu: or :symub: and the same is true for the other 9 hybrid symbols with their two colors in for the last 2 leters of the code. ((2/B) and co are :sym2b:)
Alternatively {UB} or {2B} in [mana] tags are (U/B) or (2/B) T is :symtap: and T will give T in [mana] tags
The reason the elder dragon legends had their cost was to prevent Animate Dead shemananigans, since an early bolas is game over due to that discard ability. You can't remove Bolas's upkeep without addressing the possibility of cheating him to play. I mena, if you actually cast him then you're golden dude but if someone pulls off a quick 7/7 flyer that wipes your hand every turn that's a pretty un-fun game, made worse when it can also destroy enchantments (which is supposed to be disallowed in his colors but Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker is an example of WtoC not caring about their own rules) so he needs either Phage ETB text or something that addresses the situation.
You seem to have almost completely ignored what few abilities they already have. When I did a very similar redesign starting quite a while ago, I kept the upkeep the same and just pushed up the other abilities (except for Bolas which I actually toned down a little to match two of the others and be less brutal with cards like Fire Whip).
Chromium2WWUUBB
Legendary Creature -- Elder Dragon (R)
Flying; Rampage 2 (Whenever this creature becomes blocked, it gets +2/+2 until end of turn for each creature blocking it beyond the first.)
Whenever Chromium deals damage, you gain that much life.
Upon your upkeep, sacrifice Chromium unless you pay WUB.
7/7
Nicol Bolas2UUBBRR
Legendary Creature -- Elder Dragon (R)
Flying
Whenever Nicol Bolas deals damage to an opponent, that player discards that many cards.
Upon your upkeep, sacrifice Nicol Bolas unless you pay UBR.
7/7
Vaevictis Asmadi2BBRRGG
Legendary Creature -- Elder Dragon (R)
Flying
Other creatures you control get +2/+0. 1R: Vaevictis Asmadi gets +2/+0 until end of turn.
Upon your upkeep, sacrifice Vaevictis Asmadi unless you pay BRG.
7/7
Palladia-Mors2RRGGWW
Legendary Creature -- Elder Dragon (R)
Flying, trample
Whenever Palladia-Mors deals damage to an opponent, look at that many cards from the top of your library. Put two of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library.
Upon your upkeep, sacrifice Palladia-Mors unless you pay RGW.
7/7
Arcades Sabboth2GGWWUU
Legendary Creature -- Elder Dragon (R)
Flying
Other creatures you control get +0/+2. 1W: Arcades Sabboth gets +0/+2 until end of turn.
Upon your upkeep, sacrifice Arcades Sabboth unless you pay GWU.
7/7
I'm not exactly happy with the Palladia-Mors, and Nicol Bolas feels like he needs a little something extra since the others are so wordy, but overall I think they work pretty well.
How are the two above dragons even remotely close to a similar power level?
Your Arcades Sabboth is INSANELY good... remove the draw effect and it becomes reasonable... (alternatively change the draw to 1 card and remove the life gain...)
A) Did I say that they were similar in power level? That's a rhetorical question: no I didn't.
B) It's kind of an apples and oranges comparison anyway. If you're playing aggro and want to alpha strike ASAP, my Palladia-Mors redux is clearly the best of the five. If you're going for a control game, or are playing multiplayer, Arcades Sabboth is obviously superior, but solely as a finisher, everything on that card is "win more". Nicol Bolas Jr. is hopefully the worst (that's my intention), but also the best reanimation target. Chromium is for Johnny, Vaevictis Asmadi is for Timmy. My only hope is that each one plays differently.
@viridiancircle:
Thanks for the comments! The "win more" p/t-boosting on two of the Dragons are intentional - for one their "win more" character allows them to be splashy - on the other hand the effects reflect aspects of the origina cards.
I'll look into finding an ability-composition that fits blue a little more for Arcades Sabboth though.
[COLOR=Black]In general, a very good start. I think they overlap in their purposes a little bit, though, so I'll offer my alternative take:
It would be nice if you added to your designs why you think your designs fit the Elder Dragons better than mine - e. g. I see no practical value in changing Nicol Bolas' triggered ability from discarding "his or her hand" to "seven cards".
@Kenaron:
It would be nice of you to make sure to state who you are addressing.
My Elder Dragons for quiet a while had a Progenitus clause to make reanimation harder, but lost it after comparing them to other cards (e. g. the Hellkite Overlord cycle).
Without the extra clause I was relieved of some constraints; so I think the originals certainly wouldn't need any reanimation check any more (there are better nonlegendary cards) - and I'm not sure on my new versions - and a safe sentence means I cannot keep all of their abilities as they are due to space considerations.
Which ones do work whichones do not?
My Nicol Bolas can't handle enchantments on purpose.
You seem to have almost completely ignored what few abilities they already have.
I have actually looked at every single one of the original cards before designing the new one and made conscious decisions:
# Arcades Sabboth had a Castle effect. If you look at my card that effect is still there - just granting indestrcutible rather than toughness points (keeping +0/+2 in addition to indestructible seemed pointless).
# Chromium had Rampage 2. I did not and do not want to use a nonevergreen keyword, especially a discontinued one. Still there is a p/t boost effect. (On this one I took admitedly the most artistic license, but without rampage it is blank)
# Nicol Bolas obviously kept its trademark ability.
# Vaevictis Asmadi at first gaines +7/+0 rather than +7/+7 to mirror its "fire breathing" abilities. It received a little upgrade to appear more splashy.
# Palladia-Mors keeps its "trademark" (;)) trample.
Thanks for the input nevertheless.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
It would be nice if you added to your designs why you think your designs fit the Elder Dragons better than mine - e. g. I see no practical value in changing Nicol Bolas' triggered ability from discarding "his or her hand" to "seven cards".
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker - I'm copying the templating from that. They're more or less functionally identical templates. Use your original one if you like. I'm just tossing out possibilities.
Don't see my versions as a criticism of yours - there's no "right answer" here. With huge creatures like this, you have a lot of leeway to do whatever you want.
The Elder Dragons were supposed to have a drawback in their power level and that is the upkeep cost. If somebody were to remake them they should either have the cost return but not with: "you may" in it or just increase the CMC of the dragons (first one recommended).
First of all: Thanks for the interest after all this time.
I am aware of the intent behind the original Elder Dragon design. The upkeep cost was a common design tool to counteract the power of cheap reanimation spells.
Here are some parts of my thought process that lead to my choice of making the upkeep cost not a drawback, but an optional benefit on the new proposed designs:
Today's creature power level has without doubt increased since the days of the original Elder Dragon cycle. As I mentioned before I compared the new cycle to creatures that are nowadays available as reanimation targets in approximately the same range of (converted) mana cost, e. g. Hellkite Overlord. At eight mana and less color restriction its cycle is a fair comparison.
Let's look at a direct comparisson: The similar: Hellkite Overlord costs :4mana::symb::symr::symr::symg: for a 8/8 creature with trample, flying and haste.
My version of Vaevictis Asmadi costs :2mana::symb::symb::symr::symr::symg::symg: for a 7/7 Dragon creature with flying and haste.
So far Hellkite Overlord seems better.
Now they both have a way to dump mana into them to make them bigger. Hellkite Overlord's fire breathing has several benefits: It can be used immediately (haste!) and during an opponent's turn if you are forced into the defense. Also it is not restricted in the total power it can generate.
On the other hand Vaevictis Asmadi gets seven power for cheap on the second attack. The ability to regenerate and the toughness pump balance out.
I've thrown another attack trigger on Vaevictis Asmadi for the sake of the cycle, but at the point you have this fatty out it is probably not that valuable and can easily be considered the small benefit of the legendary drawback.
So: I'd argue that turning the upkeep cost into a drawback is not necessary for a modern interpretation of the Elder Dragon cycle. The world has moved on, as they say.
I kept an upkeep cost in the designs as a reference to the old drawback, but I think in general it doesn't need to be a drawback anymore. If you think any of the individual designs in the OP is overpowered, I'll restate the question:
I'll not go into depth regarding your designs. I feel they are not actually doing much to improve the idea of the original cycle as much as "doing them again" without much thought put into revision.
This idea of "revising" and "improving" is what lead me to change the drawback into a benefit. I feel it is necessary to turn the old cards into a better design by modern standards.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Flying, trample
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay :symr::symg::symw:. If you do, Palladia-Mors deals 3 damage to each creature you don't control.
If a source would deal damage to you, it deals half that much damage instead, rounded down.
7/7
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay :symw::symu::symb:. If you do, return target artifact card from a graveyard to the battlefield under your control.
Chromium gets +1/+1 for each artifact you control.
7/7
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay :symu::symb::symr:. If you do, destroy target creature.
Whenever Nicol Bolas deals damage to an opponent, that player discards his or her hand.
7/7
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Flying, haste
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay :symb::symr::symg:. If you do, Vaevictis Asmadi gets +7/+7 until end of turn.
Whenever Vaevictis Asmadi attacks, the defending player sacrifices a land.
7/7
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Flying, vigilance
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay :symg::symw::symu:. If you do, gain 7 life.
Untapped creatures you control are indestructible.
7/7
I'd like comments on their power level being appropriate, as well as their "splashiness". Are they fitting their colors/original idea?
I tried to keep the original cost and p/t as well as the existance of an "upkeep cost" - just being a bonus this time around.
Also I'd appreciate any storyline-versed person to sum up how these are characterised in the books/comics - and which aren't at all. (I'm not so much looking for "A was friends with B, enemy with C", but "A was loyal/arrogant/treacherous/sadistic/...") Thanks.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Chromium - Quite nice in an Esper deck. The P/T boost seems very 'win-more', whilst the other ability is the one which looks more interesting to me.
Nicol Bolas - Yep, this works very nicely.
Vaevictis Asmadi - Like Chromium, it looks like the P/T boost is just overkill. It'll eventually grind down any defences they might've had though.
Arcades Sabboth - Don't see much blue influence here, besides possibly untapping your own stuff, but that's okay. It's very strong, and if you can cast it you really deserve to get that kind of effect.
Overall I like the make over and powering up you've given to these old favourites. Very nice and quite balanced.
Custom Card / Set Reviewer
When reviewing custom cards / sets, I look for (a) flavour, (b) function, and (c) cohesiveness, generally through a risk focus.
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay GWU. If you do, for each creature your opponents control, you draw a card and you gain 1 life.
Untapped creatures you control have first strike and shroud.
[7/7]
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay WUB. If you do, search your library for an artifact card, put that card onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.
Chromium gets +1/+1 for each artifact on the battlefield.
[7/7]
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay UBR. If you do, destroy target noncreature permanent.
Whenever Nicol Bolas deals combat damage to a player, that player discards seven cards.
[7/7]
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay BRG. If you do, Vaevictis Asmadi deals 7 damage divided as you choose among any number of target creatures.
1, Exile a creature card from a graveyard: Regenerate target nonlegendary creature.
[7/7]
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay RGW. If you do, put a 3/3 colorless Dragon Spawn creature token with haste onto the battlefield.
Whenever Palladia-Mors attacks, attacking creatures gain trample until end of turn.
[7/7]
Your Arcades Sabboth is INSANELY good... remove the draw effect and it becomes reasonable... (alternatively change the draw to 1 card and remove the life gain...)
Alternatively {UB} or {2B} in [mana] tags are (U/B) or (2/B)
T is :symtap: and T will give T in [mana] tags
Chromium 2WWUUBB
Legendary Creature -- Elder Dragon (R)
Flying; Rampage 2 (Whenever this creature becomes blocked, it gets +2/+2 until end of turn for each creature blocking it beyond the first.)
Whenever Chromium deals damage, you gain that much life.
Upon your upkeep, sacrifice Chromium unless you pay WUB.
7/7
Nicol Bolas 2UUBBRR
Legendary Creature -- Elder Dragon (R)
Flying
Whenever Nicol Bolas deals damage to an opponent, that player discards that many cards.
Upon your upkeep, sacrifice Nicol Bolas unless you pay UBR.
7/7
Vaevictis Asmadi 2BBRRGG
Legendary Creature -- Elder Dragon (R)
Flying
Other creatures you control get +2/+0.
1R: Vaevictis Asmadi gets +2/+0 until end of turn.
Upon your upkeep, sacrifice Vaevictis Asmadi unless you pay BRG.
7/7
Palladia-Mors 2RRGGWW
Legendary Creature -- Elder Dragon (R)
Flying, trample
Whenever Palladia-Mors deals damage to an opponent, look at that many cards from the top of your library. Put two of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library.
Upon your upkeep, sacrifice Palladia-Mors unless you pay RGW.
7/7
Arcades Sabboth 2GGWWUU
Legendary Creature -- Elder Dragon (R)
Flying
Other creatures you control get +0/+2.
1W: Arcades Sabboth gets +0/+2 until end of turn.
Upon your upkeep, sacrifice Arcades Sabboth unless you pay GWU.
7/7
I'm not exactly happy with the Palladia-Mors, and Nicol Bolas feels like he needs a little something extra since the others are so wordy, but overall I think they work pretty well.
A) Did I say that they were similar in power level? That's a rhetorical question: no I didn't.
B) It's kind of an apples and oranges comparison anyway. If you're playing aggro and want to alpha strike ASAP, my Palladia-Mors redux is clearly the best of the five. If you're going for a control game, or are playing multiplayer, Arcades Sabboth is obviously superior, but solely as a finisher, everything on that card is "win more". Nicol Bolas Jr. is hopefully the worst (that's my intention), but also the best reanimation target. Chromium is for Johnny, Vaevictis Asmadi is for Timmy. My only hope is that each one plays differently.
Thanks for the comments! The "win more" p/t-boosting on two of the Dragons are intentional - for one their "win more" character allows them to be splashy - on the other hand the effects reflect aspects of the origina cards.
I'll look into finding an ability-composition that fits blue a little more for Arcades Sabboth though.
It would be nice if you added to your designs why you think your designs fit the Elder Dragons better than mine - e. g. I see no practical value in changing Nicol Bolas' triggered ability from discarding "his or her hand" to "seven cards".
@Kenaron:
It would be nice of you to make sure to state who you are addressing.
My Elder Dragons for quiet a while had a Progenitus clause to make reanimation harder, but lost it after comparing them to other cards (e. g. the Hellkite Overlord cycle).
Without the extra clause I was relieved of some constraints; so I think the originals certainly wouldn't need any reanimation check any more (there are better nonlegendary cards) - and I'm not sure on my new versions - and a safe sentence means I cannot keep all of their abilities as they are due to space considerations.
Which ones do work whichones do not?
My Nicol Bolas can't handle enchantments on purpose.
I have actually looked at every single one of the original cards before designing the new one and made conscious decisions:
# Arcades Sabboth had a Castle effect. If you look at my card that effect is still there - just granting indestrcutible rather than toughness points (keeping +0/+2 in addition to indestructible seemed pointless).
# Chromium had Rampage 2. I did not and do not want to use a nonevergreen keyword, especially a discontinued one. Still there is a p/t boost effect. (On this one I took admitedly the most artistic license, but without rampage it is blank)
# Nicol Bolas obviously kept its trademark ability.
# Vaevictis Asmadi at first gaines +7/+0 rather than +7/+7 to mirror its "fire breathing" abilities. It received a little upgrade to appear more splashy.
# Palladia-Mors keeps its "trademark" (;)) trample.
Thanks for the input nevertheless.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker - I'm copying the templating from that. They're more or less functionally identical templates. Use your original one if you like. I'm just tossing out possibilities.
Don't see my versions as a criticism of yours - there's no "right answer" here. With huge creatures like this, you have a lot of leeway to do whatever you want.
First of all: Thanks for the interest after all this time.
I am aware of the intent behind the original Elder Dragon design. The upkeep cost was a common design tool to counteract the power of cheap reanimation spells.
Here are some parts of my thought process that lead to my choice of making the upkeep cost not a drawback, but an optional benefit on the new proposed designs:
Today's creature power level has without doubt increased since the days of the original Elder Dragon cycle. As I mentioned before I compared the new cycle to creatures that are nowadays available as reanimation targets in approximately the same range of (converted) mana cost, e. g. Hellkite Overlord. At eight mana and less color restriction its cycle is a fair comparison.
Let's look at a direct comparisson:
The similar:
Hellkite Overlord costs :4mana::symb::symr::symr::symg: for a 8/8 creature with trample, flying and haste.
My version of Vaevictis Asmadi costs :2mana::symb::symb::symr::symr::symg::symg: for a 7/7 Dragon creature with flying and haste.
So far Hellkite Overlord seems better.
Now they both have a way to dump mana into them to make them bigger.
Hellkite Overlord's fire breathing has several benefits: It can be used immediately (haste!) and during an opponent's turn if you are forced into the defense. Also it is not restricted in the total power it can generate.
On the other hand Vaevictis Asmadi gets seven power for cheap on the second attack. The ability to regenerate and the toughness pump balance out.
I've thrown another attack trigger on Vaevictis Asmadi for the sake of the cycle, but at the point you have this fatty out it is probably not that valuable and can easily be considered the small benefit of the legendary drawback.
So: I'd argue that turning the upkeep cost into a drawback is not necessary for a modern interpretation of the Elder Dragon cycle. The world has moved on, as they say.
I kept an upkeep cost in the designs as a reference to the old drawback, but I think in general it doesn't need to be a drawback anymore. If you think any of the individual designs in the OP is overpowered, I'll restate the question:
(typo corrected)
---
I'll not go into depth regarding your designs. I feel they are not actually doing much to improve the idea of the original cycle as much as "doing them again" without much thought put into revision.
This idea of "revising" and "improving" is what lead me to change the drawback into a benefit. I feel it is necessary to turn the old cards into a better design by modern standards.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO