How many of you actually (try to) design your own competitive decks? - Page 10

pandafarmer · 07-11-2010, 06:29 AM

I've also been a competitive minded rogue builder. Many times, it's a flop that just sort of "hangs in there." I did have three decks do very well in their time, two of which actually ended up becoming popular decks when pro players noticed similar strategies that I did.

Insanitys · 07-11-2010, 10:53 PM

I think with the new core set, we will see a lot of new decks being built for awhile, and then people will stat to carbon copy things. Its just how American's do it.

Don't use red/bold text.

Spamurai · 07-12-2010, 04:56 AM

Umm, that's kinda stereotypical, don't you think?

People netdeck, because given a limited card pool, a select number of efficient, optimized decks are going to rise to the top.

If you aren't the kind of person that can innovate, and discover those decks, first, then you have two choices.

1. Netdeck
2. Not win most of the time

Magic is about fun, but people define fun differently. And your idea of fun isn't going to be allowed to hamper mine, just as much as you would like mine to not hamper your. You play your deck, I'll play mine, and I might let you have the tokens out of my prize packs.

Kaitscralt · 07-12-2010, 05:04 AM

I love how the question posed in the OP is going ignored and instead people are just claiming to have invented tier one decks before anyone else (including pros) thought to.

Spamurai · 07-12-2010, 05:05 AM

I don't know about all of that, but do we need one of these kind of threads per week? We get it, you guys don't like net decking.

LGT · 07-12-2010, 07:23 AM

Several years ago, there was much less net and therefore no netdecking, only a few magazines like Duelist and InQuest. I made, by myself, a few of what are now Vintage-casual decks that were pretty decent, some straightforward but extreme like red-green ramp burn (Llanowar Elves, Fyndhorn Elves, Orcish Lumberjack, Tinder Wall, Channel, Fireball...) and some rather novel like mono-blue combo lockdown with Sands of Time (Prodigal Sorcerer, Zuran Spellcaster, Reveka, wizard savant, Copy Artifact, Betrayal, Psychic Venom, Mana Vault, Capsize). In the same period, a friend figured out Necropotence more or less on his own.
When after a long hiatus I started going at store tournaments regularly (Zendikar), I considered my card pool, read several threads in this forum, and decided to play vampires. Starting with a number of staples I decided the rest with common sense, bought needed rares, and then I improved and varied and refined: every week I tried new cards, not all of which successful. Then vampires ceased to be competitive, with no apparent remedy.
Currently I play blue-white turbofog.
I started from a slightly fixed copy of another player's deck and drastically improved it in several stages, reaching almost the same level of refinement of my vampires and inducing other players to play their own slightly different take on turbofog in the process.
I also make experiments (current one: red-white defenders with Manabarbs), but most of them aren't very competitive and I don't have enough time to develop them.
I generally find posted lists a reference of proven or "mandatory" cards to counterbalance my taste for combos and overspecialization.

Jazzy · 07-12-2010, 09:26 AM

I don't purposely netdeck, but I usually start with a general shell of good cards and it tends to resemble a lot of the decks you see on the net. UW Control, isn't a netdeck, it's a proven archetype, and an archetype I enjoy playing.

Losenas · 07-12-2010, 09:29 AM

I will build my own deck if there isn't a popular deck that I currently like. For example, back in Lorwyn-Shards, I played 5cc because it was a good deck that I enjoyed playing... right now, I've tried out all the decks that look interesting to me, and didn't enjoy playing with any of them, so I'm working on an Esper control deck that I do enjoy playing.

atlmatt · 07-12-2010, 10:04 AM

Standard has a limited card pool, with certain cards and interactions which are more powerful than others. Logically speaking, the majority of players who do real testing with their decks are going to come up with the same conclusions. For example, I like rock style decks. I build and test various decks, and they always end up looking very similar to tournament Jund decks. Why? Because that strategy is the best rock style strategy overall. Same thing with Mythic. I showed up to FNM with my latest brew, and low and behold a couple of other GWu mages had the same changes in their lists.

In my experience, the overwhelming majority of people who self righteously proclaim to only build and play their own decks just don't do enough testing, or don't do solid testing, and end up playing sub-optimal decks. They then complain about loosing to "net-deckers", when in reality they loose to better decks. If your lovingly crafted homebrew deck can't stand toe to toe with a Jund player who makes 3 or 4 mistakes a game, you have nothing to complain about.

Ironically, while I stopped defending myself when people think I net deck, I will often have other players stand up say "uh no, he was playing X before it won anything". This isn't always the case, and I don't hesitate to incorporate good technology into my decks, but beware of taking other players to task for decks you think you've seen before, because 1, they may have come up with the list themself after all, and 2, they may actually be ahead of the curve and have some interesting variations on an obvious theme that end up taking you be surprise.

Denetine · 07-12-2010, 11:45 AM

This definitely happened to me in rav/time spiral standard.
At this time I was a teen without a job that went off of an allowance... yeah... anyway I had a very limited budget for decks and kamigawa just rotated. I had nothing to play so before FNM I looked at the time spiral theme deck and grabbed a few cards I thought would make the "Fun with Fungus" deck better. The black/green color combination was new to me. I enjoyed how it had black for powerful removal and green for obese smashers. I slowly moved away from the idea of fungus to more of the theme of black green beatdown. I then saw that with the absurd number of dual lands in standard that I could easily benefit from splashing white for akroma and wrath of god. I slowly traded for this deck and made a sort of reanimator beatdown that used loxodon hierarch to stall until I could get two or more fatties on the board. I in no way looked online but I guess it was my own spin-off of rhoxodon hierarchy, but after examining the two lists I still liked mine better. Even if mine had a strickly worse mana base and such. It just felt right that I made it and won with it too

.

**the_cardfather** · 07-12-2010, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madding

I love how the question posed in the OP is going ignored and instead people are just claiming to have invented tier one decks before anyone else (including pros) thought to.

I think it started with people responding to this post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineChaos

umm, top tier? No. I don't think there is one person who posts regularly on MTGS(besides Finn probably) that has ever designed a deck that became a tier 1 or 1.5 deck in any format. Yes, people make homebrews all the time but most of those are jank. I built a Project 4.20 deck back in TSP-Lorwyn standard and had fun with it and won me a good share of FNM and even did decent at a PTQ or 2 but it wasn't a tier deck.

Building decks can do decent at low competitive levels but once you get to PTQs and NQs you need to be running a finely tuned deck made of strong cards. Most homebrew decks will fail at least one of those qualifications.

KittyCannon · 07-12-2010, 01:34 PM

I almost always atleast try to make my own decks. I definetely take ideas from other people, but i love changing things up and adding my own stuff, or just building all over from scratch. The funnest way to make a new deck is go to gatherer and just search archtypes or whatever you need and put the stuff together.

Eepop · 07-12-2010, 01:45 PM

My testing group uses proxies, so we try all kinds of decks. We usually start by playing some games with the established decks so that we can get some idea of what the environment is like.

Then we all come up with as many deck ideas as possible and throw decklists on our forum. The others then look over people's ideas and see if there is any potential in it. If the list looks to have potential, we proxy it up and run some games to see if it can live up to its potential. If so, we continue with it, if not we stop.

That said, if after enough time, we've gone through enough deck ideas to find that the current top decks are just the best, we aren't too proud to put aside our creations and play what we've found to work best, even if it is something someone else designed.

Silex Flint · 07-12-2010, 03:33 PM

I do try but not hard enough as I don't playtest to an adequate extent

Exhumer_Exarch · 07-12-2010, 03:50 PM

I think being satisfied with putting your own spin on an existing archetype is good enough. Much like cooking, you are taking a stock recipe and trying to make it your own, it doesn't make it any less of an awesome dish just because it's been made before. I don't really understand why people object so strongly to this.

07-11-2010, 06:29 AM	#136
pandafarmer Just pootin' Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Twin Cities Posts: 12,855	I've also been a competitive minded rogue builder. Many times, it's a flop that just sort of "hangs in there." I did have three decks do very well in their time, two of which actually ended up becoming popular decks when pro players noticed similar strategies that I did. __________________ www.mtgotraders.com - Enter Code PANDAPAYPAL for 8% off! www.CapeFearGames.com - Enter Code PANDA for 5% off! Limit of 1 coupon per order
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07-11-2010, 10:53 PM	#137
Insanitys Ascended Mage Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 289	I think with the new core set, we will see a lot of new decks being built for awhile, and then people will stat to carbon copy things. Its just how American's do it. Don't use red/bold text. __________________ [CENTER] Last edited by CorpT; 07-11-2010 at 11:05 PM.
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07-12-2010, 04:56 AM	#138
Spamurai Experienced Mage Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Terre Haute, IN Posts: 98	Umm, that's kinda stereotypical, don't you think? People netdeck, because given a limited card pool, a select number of efficient, optimized decks are going to rise to the top. If you aren't the kind of person that can innovate, and discover those decks, first, then you have two choices. 1. Netdeck 2. Not win most of the time Magic is about fun, but people define fun differently. And your idea of fun isn't going to be allowed to hamper mine, just as much as you would like mine to not hamper your. You play your deck, I'll play mine, and I might let you have the tokens out of my prize packs. __________________ Experiment Kraj
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07-12-2010, 05:04 AM	#139
Kaitscralt A frog among toads. Join Date: May 2007 Location: Somewhere in NY Posts: 9,722	I love how the question posed in the OP is going ignored and instead people are just claiming to have invented tier one decks before anyone else (including pros) thought to. __________________ fish of the wild-wood
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07-12-2010, 05:05 AM	#140
Spamurai Experienced Mage Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Terre Haute, IN Posts: 98	I don't know about all of that, but do we need one of these kind of threads per week? We get it, you guys don't like net decking. __________________ Experiment Kraj
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07-12-2010, 07:23 AM	#141
LGT Experienced Mage Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 89	Several years ago, there was much less net and therefore no netdecking, only a few magazines like Duelist and InQuest. I made, by myself, a few of what are now Vintage-casual decks that were pretty decent, some straightforward but extreme like red-green ramp burn (Llanowar Elves, Fyndhorn Elves, Orcish Lumberjack, Tinder Wall, Channel, Fireball...) and some rather novel like mono-blue combo lockdown with Sands of Time (Prodigal Sorcerer, Zuran Spellcaster, Reveka, wizard savant, Copy Artifact, Betrayal, Psychic Venom, Mana Vault, Capsize). In the same period, a friend figured out Necropotence more or less on his own. When after a long hiatus I started going at store tournaments regularly (Zendikar), I considered my card pool, read several threads in this forum, and decided to play vampires. Starting with a number of staples I decided the rest with common sense, bought needed rares, and then I improved and varied and refined: every week I tried new cards, not all of which successful. Then vampires ceased to be competitive, with no apparent remedy. Currently I play blue-white turbofog. I started from a slightly fixed copy of another player's deck and drastically improved it in several stages, reaching almost the same level of refinement of my vampires and inducing other players to play their own slightly different take on turbofog in the process. I also make experiments (current one: red-white defenders with Manabarbs), but most of them aren't very competitive and I don't have enough time to develop them. I generally find posted lists a reference of proven or "mandatory" cards to counterbalance my taste for combos and overspecialization. __________________ Nicholas Cage, Planeswalker
0

07-12-2010, 09:26 AM	#142
Jazzy Archmage Overlord Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,513	I don't purposely netdeck, but I usually start with a general shell of good cards and it tends to resemble a lot of the decks you see on the net. UW Control, isn't a netdeck, it's a proven archetype, and an archetype I enjoy playing.
0

07-12-2010, 09:29 AM	#143
Losenas Ascended Mage Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 319	I will build my own deck if there isn't a popular deck that I currently like. For example, back in Lorwyn-Shards, I played 5cc because it was a good deck that I enjoyed playing... right now, I've tried out all the decks that look interesting to me, and didn't enjoy playing with any of them, so I'm working on an Esper control deck that I do enjoy playing. __________________ I identify as neither male nor female. You may refer to me by using the either gender pronouns or they singular they. =) Currently working on: Self-Mill
0

07-12-2010, 10:04 AM	#144
atlmatt Wizard Mentor Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 729	Standard has a limited card pool, with certain cards and interactions which are more powerful than others. Logically speaking, the majority of players who do real testing with their decks are going to come up with the same conclusions. For example, I like rock style decks. I build and test various decks, and they always end up looking very similar to tournament Jund decks. Why? Because that strategy is the best rock style strategy overall. Same thing with Mythic. I showed up to FNM with my latest brew, and low and behold a couple of other GWu mages had the same changes in their lists. In my experience, the overwhelming majority of people who self righteously proclaim to only build and play their own decks just don't do enough testing, or don't do solid testing, and end up playing sub-optimal decks. They then complain about loosing to "net-deckers", when in reality they loose to better decks. If your lovingly crafted homebrew deck can't stand toe to toe with a Jund player who makes 3 or 4 mistakes a game, you have nothing to complain about. Ironically, while I stopped defending myself when people think I net deck, I will often have other players stand up say "uh no, he was playing X before it won anything". This isn't always the case, and I don't hesitate to incorporate good technology into my decks, but beware of taking other players to task for decks you think you've seen before, because 1, they may have come up with the list themself after all, and 2, they may actually be ahead of the curve and have some interesting variations on an obvious theme that end up taking you be surprise.
0

07-12-2010, 11:45 AM	#145
Denetine Ascended Mage Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: A place of engulfing dread, oh and it's in PA Posts: 235	This definitely happened to me in rav/time spiral standard. At this time I was a teen without a job that went off of an allowance... yeah... anyway I had a very limited budget for decks and kamigawa just rotated. I had nothing to play so before FNM I looked at the time spiral theme deck and grabbed a few cards I thought would make the "Fun with Fungus" deck better. The black/green color combination was new to me. I enjoyed how it had black for powerful removal and green for obese smashers. I slowly moved away from the idea of fungus to more of the theme of black green beatdown. I then saw that with the absurd number of dual lands in standard that I could easily benefit from splashing white for akroma and wrath of god. I slowly traded for this deck and made a sort of reanimator beatdown that used loxodon hierarch to stall until I could get two or more fatties on the board. I in no way looked online but I guess it was my own spin-off of rhoxodon hierarchy, but after examining the two lists I still liked mine better. Even if mine had a strickly worse mana base and such. It just felt right that I made it and won with it too . __________________ Level 31 Invoker Pride is a powerful tool; it makes us fight harder when we are weak as does it cut us down while we are at our prime. If you are a player in the Lancaster, PA area or go to school at Millersville University there is a Magic Club that holds all kinds of events! Checkout our Facebook Page or message me, Austin Rittle! http://www.facebook.com/groups/170267396386812/
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07-12-2010, 01:34 PM	#147
KittyCannon Banned Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 49	I almost always atleast try to make my own decks. I definetely take ideas from other people, but i love changing things up and adding my own stuff, or just building all over from scratch. The funnest way to make a new deck is go to gatherer and just search archtypes or whatever you need and put the stuff together.
0

07-12-2010, 01:45 PM	#148
Eepop Archmage Overlord Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,199 Blog Entries: 6	My testing group uses proxies, so we try all kinds of decks. We usually start by playing some games with the established decks so that we can get some idea of what the environment is like. Then we all come up with as many deck ideas as possible and throw decklists on our forum. The others then look over people's ideas and see if there is any potential in it. If the list looks to have potential, we proxy it up and run some games to see if it can live up to its potential. If so, we continue with it, if not we stop. That said, if after enough time, we've gone through enough deck ideas to find that the current top decks are just the best, we aren't too proud to put aside our creations and play what we've found to work best, even if it is something someone else designed.
0

07-12-2010, 03:50 PM	#150
Exhumer_Exarch Ascended Mage Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 214	I think being satisfied with putting your own spin on an existing archetype is good enough. Much like cooking, you are taking a stock recipe and trying to make it your own, it doesn't make it any less of an awesome dish just because it's been made before. I don't really understand why people object so strongly to this.
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