:symu::symr: has been my favorite color combination since I started playing Magic more than ten years ago. The two colors are constantly at odds with each other: Blue valuing logic and forethought, and Red valuing impulse and passion. Red and Blue usually clash, but here, they combine to create one of the most unique and torn philosophies in Magic. Jhoira of the Ghitu is no exception, so when the dust settled on building the deck that represents both my personality and playstyle, it was Jhoira.
The deck started out as Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind, because I am a combo player at heart. Niv had the easiest combo to assemble in the format: Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind + Curiosity. However, as I played matches with Niv as the General, I found myself constantly going for the same card. I needed something more versatile... more interesting... more epic. I switched my General to Jhoira, and the deck exploded, becoming the deepest combo deck I’ve ever built.
Let’s take a look at Jhoira herself.
2, Exile a nonland card from your hand: Put four time counters on the exiled card. If it doesn't have suspend, it gains suspend. (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter from that card. When the last is removed, cast it without paying its mana cost. If it's a creature, it has haste.)
You mean I can take all my spells, put them in this magical plane of existence that makes them virtually untouchable, then cast them however I feel like cleverly orchestrating? Sold.
Jhoira’s main strength is that she can play some of the highest cost cards in the format well before they are usually meant to be played. Since EDH is ruled by the biggest, splashiest spells and creatures, this ability can be extremely devastating when played correctly. We want to capatalize on this, and use it to its full potential.
Once suspended, these massive creatures and spells are extremely well protected until they become unsuspended and resolve. It is very difficult for players to deal with cards that are removed from the game, and once they are ready to resolve, the Jhoira player should be ready to make sure the game is over in short order. This is how Jhoira usually wins games; she uses a doomsday clock.
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Building Jhoira
Since Jhoira is primarily played as a combo deck, there are many different ways that you could approach building around her. Many players prefer to put in as many combos as possible, and plan around creating multiple/infinite turns. Others might prefer to suspend as many huge creatures as possible, then win through attrition. Whichever route you choose, almost every Jhoira deck primarily revolves around one specific, game-ending interaction: Suspend large creatures (fat), then Suspend a board wipe. When players have no permanents in play, and no cards in hand, they can’t easily stop you from winning the game.
This strategy has allowed Jhoira to be a powerful General for quite some time. However, the deck has only recently become as competitive as it is due to the printing of the three two amazingly powerful Eldrazi Titans.
By suspending any two of the above Eldrazi Titans, followed by any of the staple board wipe spells (such as the ever popular Obliterate), a Jhoira player can effectively seal a game using the Annihilator mechanic. The Jhoira player’s opponents won’t be able to recover when they lose their lands every turn while Ulamog swings at them with the inevitability of the Annihilator mechanic.
The remainder of the deck should focus on the various ways to accelerate and draw into this combo, as well as set up any of the alternative game-winning combos (should you choose to win by a different route), or if your primary win condition (Eldrazi) is somehow shut down.
Here is an example of a typical competitive Jhoira decklist:
Akroma, Angel of Fury - Sometimes, you're just looking for prime fat. If that's the market you're in, you could do much worse than the Red Queen. She dodges two of the most played colors in the format, too. Trinket Mage - Go fetch Sol Ring, Top, or whatever else you need. Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir - While Teferi's most used purpose in most decks is to slow down your opponent and give you a little extra speed, he has an additional purpose in this deck. He stops your opponents from being able to respond to your resolving Suspend Triggers. This is invaluable. Bogardan Hellkite - One of the most common creatures to suspend. He's excellent by himself, and he can wreck havoc off of a kicked Rite of Replication. Inkwell Leviathan - What's better than massive creatures? Massive creatures with Shroud, and two kinds of evasion, that's what. Izzet Chronarch - Combo piece with bounce effects and Extra Turn Spells, as well as getting a key spell back from the yard when you need it. Rift Elemental - This guy can get big really quick. The best part, is that he eats Suspend counters to do it. Djinn Illuminatus - The Djinn enables quite a few broken game states when you can copy any of your spells. He can usually end the game by copying extra turns, and can definitely end the game when pairing him with an infinite mana engine, and pretty much any spell in the deck. Tidespout Tyrant - Besides being one of the most effective combo enablers in the deck, Tidespout Tyrant also has the added benefit of turning all of your spells into answers to problematic permanents. Things get crazy when he can bounce everything from the board but your stuff. Magus of the Future - Magus is an amazing source of CA for the deck, and can also combo out with Future Sight and Top, as well as the aforementioned Tyrant. Aeon Chronicler - Yay cards! Pestermite - Makes infinite evasive faeries with Kiki-Jiki. If you're looking for a card to cut from the deck, this one is worth considering, since Kiki functions well with others cards just as well. Arcanis the Omnipotent - Another massive CA machine, similar to Magus. If unchecked, Arcanis will drown your opponents in cards by 4-1. Also draws your deck with Mind Over Matter. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker - Completely broken card. Is the source of multiple combo wins (see below), as well as being able to copy utility creatures (like Trinket Mage) to generate CA. Mnemonic Wall - Similar to Chronarch. Also combos with the same cards Chronarch does. Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind - Combo enabler (with Curiosity), and drawer of cards. Niv used to be my General, until I tossed him in here. Kozilek, Butcher of Truth - Game Ender 1. Suspend Board Wipe, then Suspend this to end the game in short order. Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre - Game Ender 2. Suspend Board Wipe, then Suspend this to end the game in short order. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - Game Ender 3, and the best of them. Suspend Board Wipe, then Suspend this to end the game in short order.
Instants Reiterate - While it is already a staple card in red decks, able to copy game-winning spells you or your opponents might play (best with tutors and time warps), it is also one of the deck's infinite mana engines (with Turnabout). Depending on the situation, I will often tutor for Reiterate, especially if I have Turnabout in hand. Cryptic Command - We're in blue. Evacuation - Reset buttons are important. This is one of the best ones. Force of Will - We also need some counter magic to protect our combos, and to stop other combos aimed at us. This one is great for when you're tapped out. Intuition - Replaced Gifts Ungiven after it got banned. Mystical Tutor - It gets combo pieces. Fact or Fiction - One of the best draw spells in the format. Can also be used politically. Hinder - Counterspell with the added bonus of being able to almost permanently deal with opposing Generals. Wild Ricochet - The best of the redirect-type spells. Really shines off an opponent's Time Warp. Desertion - I'm sorry, did you want that? Stroke of Genius - Excellent draw spell. Also can draw your deck using an IME (infinite mana engine), as well as force your opponent's to deck themselves and win. Turnabout - Really tricky card, and is the other half of one of the deck's IMEs. Counterspell - Yep. It's Counterspell.
Sorceries Bribery - I'm sure everyone has their own personal uses for this card, and certain creatures they like to get. I go straight for the green deck player, with one goal in mind: finding Seedborn Muse. Rite of Replication - Every time I see this card being played, it's to do something completely broken. Recurring Insight - I've recently started testing Insight, and I've found it to be a really effective draw tool. Insurrection - 90% win ratio and counting. Time Warp - I hear extra turns are nice. Time Stretch - Even better! Try it with Mirror Sheen for even more flavor! Time Spiral - The best of the Draw 7s. Is free, and gets stuff back from the yard, too. Knowledge Exploitation - More and more players are starting to catch on to how good this card really is. The more I play it, the more I see people putting in their decks. Try it out, and see why. Jokulhaups - Board Wipe 1. Suspend, then Suspend Eldrazi. Win. Decree of Annihilation - Board Wipe 2. Suspend, then Suspend Eldrazi. Win. This one is preferred, due to its ability to take out answers in your opponent's hands. Beacon of Tomorrows - Board Wipe 3. Suspend, then Suspend Eldrazi. Win. Obliterate - Board Wipe 4. Suspend, then Suspend Eldrazi. Win. Apocalypse - Board Wipe 5. Suspend, then Suspend Eldrazi. Win.
Sol Ring - The best Mana Rock. Gilded Lotus - A really good Mana Rock. Dreamstone Hedron - A Mana Rock that can get you more cards. Thran Dynamo - A Mana Rock for a nice chunk of colorless. Sensei’s Divining Top - It's Top. Planar Portal - Repeatable tutors are amazing in this format. This card is almost the first target on the board by opponents, short of the Jhoira. Can win the game outright with Beacon of Tomorrows. Crystal Shard - Repeatable, consistent bounce to save your creatures, stop your opponents' creatures, or win with Mnemonic Wall and Time Warp. Temple Bell - Deck everyone with Mind Over Matter, then win. Also, politics (naw, not really). Lightning Greaves - Always wear protection.
Curiosity - It's here because it wins the game with Niv-Mizzet. Future Sight - Magus #2. Wins the game the same way he does, or provides massive CA in order to get there. Paradox Haze - This card is the major strategy that gets your suspended cards out earlier, which makes you win the game faster. A common target for tutoring. Thought Reflection - This cards works for me, but YMMV. Great for multiplayer, much too slow for 1v1. Mirror Sheen - Another major combo piece, and a surprisingly effective political deterrent. No-one wants to see their spells hit them back, but you may want to see another Time Stretch with it. At it's best when unsuspending Time Stretch, or making infinite mana with Turnabout. Mind Over Matter - CA engine with many different cards, and combo engine with others. Players often scoop to this card, so use it wisely.
There isn't much to say about lands, but I'll give it a shot.
Island - I've heard that having two of these in play can make your opponents scoop. Mountain - ...but I've never seen anyone scoop to two mountains. Boseiju, Who Shelters All - Forces you spells through an opponent's counter magic wall. Riptide Laboratory - Bounces Jhoira (and others) away from harm. Stream Vents - Important Dual Land. Scalding Tarn - Important Fetchland. Cascade Bluffs - Important Filterland. Shivan Reef - Important Painland. Izzet Boilerworks - Important Bounceland. Academy Ruins - Gets dead artifacts back. Tolaria West - Transmutes for any of the above lands. Reliquary Tower - Useful for when you're comboing off by drawing the deck. Eye of Ugin - Tutors for your Eldrazi win-cons.
When playing Magic, I tend to think of the game like a puzzle. I am constantly surveying the game state, checking my opponent's boards, studying their previous plays and patterns, and calculating the most effective play during any given turn. Since Jhoira typically plays as a combo deck, it is important to be aware of everything that is going on during a game, so you can time your win perfectly, and seal the game.
Your goal while playing Jhoira should be one of the two following options.
The first option is what I lovingly refer to as "The Doomsday Clock". In this first scenario, you slow play the game, keeping a relatively low profile during the opening turns. There is no reason to establish more hate for yourself than you already have just from playing Jhoira, since everyone probably expects this of you. Use your draw engines and search cards to dig up one of the three Eldrazi Titans (preferably Emakul) and one of your four board wipes (preferably Decree of Annihilation).
At this point, cast Jhoira (hopefully with counterspell backup, if you need it), then immediately Suspend both the board wipe and the Eldrazi. Any other fatty creature will do, but the Eldrazi are so powerful that they create inevitability. Once all the Time Counters are removed, stack the triggers so that the board wipe occurs first, then the fatty creature enters the battlefield. Now nobody has any permanents other than you. Smash face.
Enchantments like Paradox Haze, and creatures like Rift Elemental (who can get really big if you let him) can hasten the Time Counter removal process. Make sure that both spells are unsuspending at the same time, though, that is important. As always, hold on to counterspells if you need them to force your spells through.
The second option is to employ any number of infinite combos included in the decklist. This type of play is much more explosive, and tends to go off all in one dramatic turn. In this scenario, you play a more sneaky, political game. While you're using the same card engines to cycle through your cards, certain cards will start drawing into your hand that combo with others. The deck is designed so that many cards combo out with multiple other cards, so redundancy is rarely an issue. Tutors help drastically with assembling key combo pieces that enable you to win the game that much faster. Many of these combos only involve two cards, making them fairly easy to come across during a game.
Once you have any of the infinite combos in the deck (outlines in the section below), assess the board state one final time. If you can combo off safely, do so now, and win the game. Counterspell backup may be necessary (it usually is).
When playing Jhoira, its important to know exactly how her amazing ability can work for you. I've included the rules for exactly how suspend works, for reference.
From the Comprehensive Rules:
o 502.59a Suspend is a keyword that represents three abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the card with suspend is in a player's hand. The second and third are triggered abilities that function in the removed-from-the-game zone. "Suspend N--[cost]" means "If you could play this card from your hand, you may pay [cost] and remove it from the game with N time counters on it. This action doesn't use the stack," and "At the beginning of your upkeep, if this card is suspended, remove a time counter from it," and "When the last time counter is removed from this card, if it's removed from the game, play it without paying its mana cost if able. If you can't, it remains removed from the game. If you play it this way and it's a creature, it gains haste until you lose control of it."
o 502.59b A card is "suspended" if it's in the removed-from-the-game zone, has suspend, and has a time counter on it.
o 502.59c Playing a spell as an effect of its suspend ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h.
This plays into one of the most effective strategies for casting Jhoira. Instead of Playing Jhoira as soon as possible, hold off until around turn five. If you can get Jhoira to stick, you can immediately pay 2 (like playing her for 3UR) and suspend whichever card you need to. You retain priority, so even if Jhoira immeditaly dies, the spell(s) are still suspended. This is critical, because Jhoira typically does not last long enough for you to untap with her in play. Lightning Greaves can help alleviate this problem, but suspending immediately after resolution is the most effective strategy.
Playing a combo deck is one of the main reasons to shuffle up and pilot Jhoira. There are many combos strewn throughout the deck, perhaps even more combos buried in the list that I have yet to find. Most of these will win the game outright, and the ones that do not, will create massive card advantage that should place you in position to win. It's worthy of note that any of the "draw your deck" combos enables you to combo out with any available combo that hasn't already been shut down.
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind + Curiosity
One of the more well-known combos. Allows you to do infinite damage to every player at the table, and draw out your entire deck. You won't even deck yourself, thanks to any of the three Eldrazi Titans.
Time Warp/Time Stretch + Mirror Sheen
Mirror Sheen copies extra turns for (generally) each three mana you have available. This is much more effective when activated off of a suspended Stretch.
Turnabout + Reiterate/Mirror Sheen (+ Stroke of Genius)
Generates infinite mana. Stroke of Genius can draw your deck, enabling any other available combo, or it can deck everyone at the table when Reiterated multliple times.
Planar Portal + Beacon of Tomorrows
Cast Beacon, shuffle Beacon into library, then take an extra turn. Find Beacon voa Portal, and cast it again. Repeat Ad Nauseam.
Decklist and strategy coming soon. Assume much less combos, and many more counterpells.
")">Let's face it: not every playgroup is going to like it when you obliterate all their hard work. Land Destruction is a controversial topic in casual games, so one strategy to quash some of the potential hate this deck generates, is to simply not run any Land Destruction spells. While this does cripple the deck's main route to victory, it can go a long way to helping the politics of the table, should you need that for your specific playgroup. It just takes a bit of convincing that you aren't as serious about ruining your friend's day.
I've also included here a variant of Jhoira of the Ghitu: my personal "Chaos deck" version. This deck has a lot more quirky and interesting interactions in it, and can be a blast to play.
Timesifter looks like a pretty nice way to take advantage of the high CMC of your cards.
I'd also suggest adding in Ancient Tomb to your mana base, since it provides an easy way to access the mana to activate her ability.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
even though suspend cannot be responded to, i'm pretty sure that jhoira's ability isn't suspend, and so it can be responded to.
Yep, Jhoira's ability can be countered like any other activated ability using Trickbind, Stiffle, Voidmage Husher. If the ability is countered, in most cases, the spell will remain in exileland -- until someone is nice enough to retrieve that spell using Riftsweeper or Pull from Eternity.
On the other hand, when you play Jhoira during your turn wth 3UR available mana, you can immediately play 2 to use Jhoira's ability (though in my experience, unless your meta is full of split second spells, it is probably best to do so at the end of your opponent's turn). Your opponent cannot prevent you from activating Jhoira given that you retain priority after your opponent declines to respond to Jhoira while she is on the stack.
Are you sure this is meant for 1v1? Both of your gameplay options seem geared towards multiplayer. You can't keep a "low profile" or play a "sneaky, political game" in 1v1. (With Jhoira, I doubt you can even do it in multiplayer, against intelligent opponents.)
It looks a bit like you just crammed all the cool stuff and win conditions you could into one list, which leaves very little room for permission or removal. At least in 1v1, this is not a particularly good idea--Jhoira is pretty fast, but by no means the fastest. Your list looks like you can offer little resistance to a deck that can win before the Obliterate hits, or even against a slower deck packing disruption.
I disagree with running so many 2-card combos in a deck with no tutors (Planar Portal doesn't count, it's too slow for 1v1). For every game where you manage to hit the combo early and go infinite, there will be more where you're stuck with a useless Pestermite or something. You have all these combo cards that don't significantly advance your gameplan or hinder your opponent's...so why bother? It's not like Jhoira is short on ways to win. I think that you'd be better off cutting almost all of the combos and creatures that don't singlehandedly win the game, and just replacing them with disruption instead. You want around 5-8 more cheap counterspells, around 5 spot removal spells, and around 4 catch-all answers or artifact removal, to deal with stuff like Pithing Needle.
As it stands, your list looks like it's probably fine for multiplayer (especially if your group is competitive or dim-witted enough to not gang up on you immediately), but it needs a lot of work to compete in 1v1.
Timesifter looks like a pretty nice way to take advantage of the high CMC of your cards.
I have played around with Timesifter, and I like it. However, it's not good enough for the competitive list, so it didn't make the cut. I'd be much more inclined to put it in the second alternative strategy, which is my chaos deck. It could have a home there.
As for Tomb, the acceleration with pain isn't really necessary (because I usually "cast" Jhoira for 3UR, to get one suspend spell), and late game, it ends up hurting more than it helps.
...when you play Jhoira during your turn wth 3UR available mana, you can immediately play 2 to use Jhoira's ability... Your opponent cannot prevent you from activating Jhoira given that you retain priority after your opponent declines to respond to Jhoira while she is on the stack.
This is exactly what I was talking about in the primer. This is usually the best strategy to casting Jhoira. I've slightly updated the word choice to better communicate this.
Quote from khymera6 »
Are you sure this is meant for 1v1? Both of your gameplay options seem geared towards multiplayer. You can't keep a "low profile" or play a "sneaky, political game" in 1v1.
Nope, it's not necessarily meant for 1v1, but this is where all the Primers have been going. Though most Primers are for 1v1, this one is primarily multiplayer-based. I've added a disclaimer at the top.
Your comments all seem geared towards how the deck would function if this were played in 1v1, and in that case, I would agree with you on all points. If the deck were meant for 1v1 play (and I'm sure I'll post a list for it in here eventually), then I'd definitely have to add in much more permission in place of many of the weaker two cards combos. That would be the only way to survive against many decks, since 1v1 is a different beast entirely.
Once I get around to posting a 1v1 list (and I will), I'll be sure to have a decklist that addresses those issues, for players who want information on how to change the deck for 1v1 play. I wouldn't mind some help on a decklist, if you were up to it, since I know you're an established 1v1 EDH player.
The main difficulty i'm having while playing a similar Jhoira deck is that you have a huge target on your forehead at all times. My 4-player commander matches on MODO have all been closer to "3 vs. the Jhoira guy" (the fact that even with that amount of hate, I either won or came second on all the matches I've played should illustrate how broken this general is and how right other players are on hating it out of the table). I think some defensive cards are needed, just not really sure which. The only change I can remember of that has been terribly effective on my deck has been to add a Chain Reaction. Really funny, specially when playing against token decks
One of the only ways to avoid this is through politics and diplomacy. On MODO it will be harder, because you don't have the same social aspect, and you can't really talk your way out of it.
In this case, I would suggest two things. First, is make sure one of your first actions during a game is helping out another player. Either through counterspelling a target aimed at them, or by removing something attacking them. This will set an example for that player, and the others will notice. On MODO, where you're always playing against different players, you can get away with doing this every game.
Second, try playing your games by establishing just enough board presence as to not arouse any suspicion, but to also be able to defend yourself. Don't always come out swinging. They say second place is the best spot to be in multiplayer games. Add in a few cards like Propaganda and War Tax to deter attackers. Bribery the first Blazing Archon you can find.
Hopefully this helps. We fight an uphill battle as soon as we announce our General.
One of the only ways to avoid this is through politics and diplomacy...
Second, try playing your games by establishing just enough board presence as to not arouse any suspicion, but to also be able to defend yourself. Don't always come out swinging.
I haven't found Jhoira to be a particularly good political general. I don't believe you can realistically lay low if your opponents have ever played against or read about Jhoira. Even if you're just playing lands and artifact mana and nothing else, everyone knows whats coming. They know you're going to be suspending Obliterates and Emrakuls. I've found people will either try to race Jhoira by trying to kill you quickly, or assemble answers to stop your bombs. I find when I'm playing Jhoira, I'm the archenemy. But no scheme deck
But that's okay. I use Energy Field and Glacial Chasm to survive the suspend delay, and cheap counters to make sure everything hits home. Twincast, Fork and the new M11 fork are great for doubling up your extra turns, but they also act as counter-counter spells. You can guarantee spot removal is heading your way, so I've found Not of this World and Confound great as well. Pyroblast takes care of counters, and Jhoira's own archenemy, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. I run more mass LD (you're missing Devastation, Boom/Bust, Sunder, the awesome Impending Disaster and a few others), so I try to stick to spells that are so expensive they need to be suspended, or are cheap enough to play post obliteration. 5-ish mana cards can be disappointing to have to suspend. And it's got to be fast fast fast- everyone will try to kill you or lock you out as fast as they can, so Ancient Tomb is great, and I even run Crystal Vein for the extra boost.
Cards I find disappointing are Thought Reflection. It's a win-more card. Yeah, you can draw 15 cards in a turn off of it, but that means you were already drawing a good amount. It's too slow for as big a lightning rod as Jhoira. I can't think of an instance where I'd want Thought Reflection in hand rather than a bomb to suspend (like Sundering Titan), a counterspell, or a straight draw spell.
Magus of the Future and Future Sight seem awesome, but you can't suspend off of the library, so they don't really serve that much of a purpose.
You have some stuff with real mass LD anti-synergy. Sure you can suspend Planar Portal into play, but it costs 6 to activate, which will feel pretty steep after all you're lands are gone. I'd replace it with just raw draw. It's inconceivable to me than you aren't running Wheel of Fortune.
I also strongly agree with the criticism about being random combo heavy. I'd focus more on the core strategy- Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind would be better for UR combo.
It's a solid build to be sure, but whether for multiplayer or singleplayer, I think it could be much more competitive.
I haven't found Jhoira to be a particularly good political general. I don't believe you can realistically lay low if your opponents have ever played against or read about Jhoira. Even if you're just playing lands and artifact mana and nothing else, everyone knows whats coming. They know you're going to be suspending Obliterates and Emrakuls. I've found people will either try to race Jhoira by trying to kill you quickly, or assemble answers to stop your bombs. I find when I'm playing Jhoira, I'm the archenemy. But no scheme deck
But that's okay. I use Energy Field and Glacial Chasm to survive the suspend delay, and cheap counters to make sure everything hits home. Twincast, Fork and the new M11 fork are great for doubling up your extra turns, but they also act as counter-counter spells. You can guarantee spot removal is heading your way, so I've found Not of this World and Confound great as well. Pyroblast takes care of counters, and Jhoira's own archenemy, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. I run more mass LD (you're missing Devastation, Boom/Bust, Sunder, the awesome Impending Disaster and a few others), so I try to stick to spells that are so expensive they need to be suspended, or are cheap enough to play post obliteration. 5-ish mana cards can be disappointing to have to suspend. And it's got to be fast fast fast- everyone will try to kill you or lock you out as fast as they can, so Ancient Tomb is great, and I even run Crystal Vein for the extra boost.
Cards I find disappointing are Thought Reflection. It's a win-more card. Yeah, you can draw 15 cards in a turn off of it, but that means you were already drawing a good amount. It's too slow for as big a lightning rod as Jhoira. I can't think of an instance where I'd want Thought Reflection in hand rather than a bomb to suspend (like Sundering Titan), a counterspell, or a straight draw spell.
Magus of the Future and Future Sight seem awesome, but you can't suspend off of the library, so they don't really serve that much of a purpose.
You have some stuff with real mass LD anti-synergy. Sure you can suspend Planar Portal into play, but it costs 6 to activate, which will feel pretty steep after all you're lands are gone. I'd replace it with just raw draw. It's inconceivable to me than you aren't running Wheel of Fortune.
I also strongly agree with the criticism about being random combo heavy. I'd focus more on the core strategy- Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind would be better for UR combo.
It's a solid build to be sure, but whether for multiplayer or singleplayer, I think it could be much more competitive.
You're correct, she isn't a good political general, but that's not what I'm implying. To play Jhoira against players who know what's coming you yourself have to be diplomatic, or yes, the table will overrun you.
Unfortunately, I don't agree with some of your points. Teferi is already in the deck, so that's good. However, you mention that you cast spells post-Obliterate. This doesn't usually work. If you're casting Obliterate, then it should be to seal the game right then with an Eldrazi or other game-winning creature, not just to wipe the board and then try to recover. It's understandable if you're about to die, but I've found that's usually a desperation move. I've been there, and it isn't a good position to be in. I wouldn't make that a primary strategy.
There really shouldn't have to be any mass LD anti-synergy. Once the LD spell is cast, you should be in position to win the game, with or without any other permanents. Planar Portal really is an amazing card. I've assembled the majority of my combos off of it, and 6 plus the activation really isn't as bad when you aren't constantly blowing up your lands.
I love cards like Fork and Swerve as much as anyone else (check my chaos list), but in the competitive list, there isn't much to cut for them. Wild Richochet already does that job better than any other card does, and I frequently use it for exactly that.
Magus and Future Sight are amazing. You don't have to suspend cards from them to see their immediately benefits in card advantage. Even without SDT, they are great, but with Top, you can usually win the game. I like winning the game, so I play them.
Also, Niv-Mizzet is just as hated. I started out using him, and after a couple of years of playing the deck, I've found Jhoira is superior. The combos are far from random; playing with the amount I do ensures that they happen in short order, as opposed to digging for one main combo, and having it get shut down. Treat them as engines (sans Pestermite, which I'm considering replacing), and it works out fine, because most of the cards combo with more than one other card. If you focus more on the core strategy, and it gets shut down, what do you do?
I like Thought Reflection, and it's worked well for me, but I can admit it's about as situational as NotW might be for you. Of all the suggestions to cut, I think this one is the best. I may replace it with Wheel of Fortune, but it requires some more testing. I like Wheel, but I like Time Spiral better. I'll give it a run.
This is only one example of a competitive list. If you find that other cards work best for you, then run those cards. If you are more successful with Impending Doom, then use it. I wouldn't advocate copying anyone's list to the letter, no matter what format I'm playing in. That's what makes EDH fun.
Sorry about how short this post is going to be, but I feel you are missing one card that makes Jhoira ridiculously explosive: Mana Vault
With T1 Vault, you have T2 Jhoira + Suspend, which is too quick for most decks to handle.
Also, where is the Fury Charm, Clockspinning, and Timecrafting? These cards are necessary for 1v1, and in multiplayer, there is nothing better than flashing your Obliterate down EOT. Usually in multiplayer with a Jhoira deck people will attack you first out of principle, and having your wipe come down faster is good at preventing... well... death.
I've played a lot with and against a similar deck, and the faster your spells unsuspend, the better off you will be. I can't tell you how many times I thought I would be able to kill before the wipe came down, only to be destroyed when my friend played any of the above cards.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Elder Dragon Highlander WUBRG
Enchant World
When EDH comes into play, the game is a draw. Each player reveals his or her library to all other players, discusses how cool their deck is, and has a good laugh. Isn’t this a better version of Magic than playing “net decks”?
i play jhoira to..and i love it..my favorite general:D
i like to win!! but i had to realize, that it is no fun at all to win your game all by the exactly same move (if you like that, play Zur!!!)...suspending a board-wipe followed by a fatty...that is boring...for my and for my opponents...and i think you can play a strong jhoira deck and not falling asleep while playing it..
cut some borad wipes...2-3 is enough!!
dont play the super boring combos such as niv + curiosity or Kiki + pest...
the result is, after some games your opponent will realize that you arent killing the fun in the game and you will start living longer...;) and having more fun
I have this deck built too and ya I have to agree that in multiplayer its always 3v1. But you can still win most of the time due to how great the deck is.
I think winter orb/static orb/stasis must be run in this deck. They are cheap ways to soft lock the board while you suspend. Secondly, they are way more ways to tutor artifacts in blue: Fabricate, Tezzeret, Transmute artifact, Reshape, muddle the mixture (only for winter orb/stasis).
I play Jhoira in my EDH group and from what I've noticed more often than not I end up hardcasting the board wipe spells rather than putting them on suspend. I've also put in Kharn (the planeswalker) and I've had really good experiences with him so far, especially against things like Luminarch Ascension which evade the board wipes and come out too early to counter. He is rather hard to kill with damage alone and fills in the removal that this deck lacks.
The rule says: "When the last time counter is removed from this card, if it's removed from the game, play it without paying its mana cost if able. If you can't, it remains removed from the game. If you play it this way and it's a creature, it gains haste until you lose control of it."
So it says " play it without paying its mana cost if able". Does this mean that if I have a creature suspended and use Rift Elemental to remove the last counter on an opponents turn, then it will just be exiled because it doesn't have flash?
question for any of you who play Mirror Sheen, have you EVER, in a competitive game or game where you are trying to win, ever found a reliable use for this card? All it really does for me is act as a deterrent for people to cast targeted spells against me, if that. It's random as hell and usually you either don't have the mana open to use it properly or end up copying things like extra turn cards that end up being draw 2 cards and go.
I get that the colors and low cost of it make it seem ideal, but I really find it being dead weight and a horrible top deck if I am behind and need an answer. Sure the once in a blue moon that you get a time stretch out of suspend or something and copy it, but other than that it's a really flimsy twincast/fork on a stick.
That is my experience at least, I want to see if anyone is having success with this card really.
Is it just me, or is Savor the Moment a great pick for this deck? It gives you a card draw, a tick on your suspended cards, and potentially an extra land drop, which in my book is a pretty good deal for three mana.
Also, now that he's availible, Ol' Snappy seems like an auto-in.
(This Primer is primarily for Multiplayer play)
:symu::symr: has been my favorite color combination since I started playing Magic more than ten years ago. The two colors are constantly at odds with each other: Blue valuing logic and forethought, and Red valuing impulse and passion. Red and Blue usually clash, but here, they combine to create one of the most unique and torn philosophies in Magic. Jhoira of the Ghitu is no exception, so when the dust settled on building the deck that represents both my personality and playstyle, it was Jhoira.
The deck started out as Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind, because I am a combo player at heart. Niv had the easiest combo to assemble in the format: Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind + Curiosity. However, as I played matches with Niv as the General, I found myself constantly going for the same card. I needed something more versatile... more interesting... more epic. I switched my General to Jhoira, and the deck exploded, becoming the deepest combo deck I’ve ever built.
Let’s take a look at Jhoira herself.
2, Exile a nonland card from your hand: Put four time counters on the exiled card. If it doesn't have suspend, it gains suspend. (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter from that card. When the last is removed, cast it without paying its mana cost. If it's a creature, it has haste.)
You mean I can take all my spells, put them in this magical plane of existence that makes them virtually untouchable, then cast them however I feel like cleverly orchestrating? Sold.
Jhoira’s main strength is that she can play some of the highest cost cards in the format well before they are usually meant to be played. Since EDH is ruled by the biggest, splashiest spells and creatures, this ability can be extremely devastating when played correctly. We want to capatalize on this, and use it to its full potential.
Once suspended, these massive creatures and spells are extremely well protected until they become unsuspended and resolve. It is very difficult for players to deal with cards that are removed from the game, and once they are ready to resolve, the Jhoira player should be ready to make sure the game is over in short order. This is how Jhoira usually wins games; she uses a doomsday clock.
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Building Jhoira
Since Jhoira is primarily played as a combo deck, there are many different ways that you could approach building around her. Many players prefer to put in as many combos as possible, and plan around creating multiple/infinite turns. Others might prefer to suspend as many huge creatures as possible, then win through attrition. Whichever route you choose, almost every Jhoira deck primarily revolves around one specific, game-ending interaction: Suspend large creatures (fat), then Suspend a board wipe. When players have no permanents in play, and no cards in hand, they can’t easily stop you from winning the game.
This strategy has allowed Jhoira to be a powerful General for quite some time. However, the deck has only recently become as competitive as it is due to the printing of the
threetwo amazingly powerful Eldrazi Titans.Emrakul, the Aeon’s TornBANHAMMERUlamog, the Infinite Gyre
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
By suspending
anytwo of the above Eldrazi Titans, followed by any of the staple board wipe spells (such as the ever popular Obliterate), a Jhoira player can effectively seal a game using the Annihilator mechanic. The Jhoira player’s opponents won’t be able to recover when they lose their lands every turn while Ulamog swings at them with the inevitability of the Annihilator mechanic.The remainder of the deck should focus on the various ways to accelerate and draw into this combo, as well as set up any of the alternative game-winning combos (should you choose to win by a different route), or if your primary win condition (Eldrazi) is somehow shut down.
Here is an example of a typical competitive Jhoira decklist:
1 Jhoira of the Ghitu
Creatures (19)
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury
1 Trinket Mage
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Izzet Chronarch
1 Rift Elemental
1 Djinn Illuminatus
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Magus of the Future
1 Aeon Chronicler
1 Pestermite
1 Arcanis the Omnipotent
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (replace with another fatty)
Instants (13)
1 Reiterate
1 Cryptic Command
1 Evacuation
1 Force of Will
1 Intuition
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Hinder
1 Wild Ricochet
1 Desertion
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Counterspell
1 Bribery
1 Rite of Replication
1 Recurring Insight
1 Insurrection
1 Time Warp
1 Time Stretch
1 Time Spiral
1 Knowledge Exploitation
1 Jokulhaups
1 Decree of Annihilation
1 Beacon of Tomorrows
1 Obliterate
1 Apocalypse
Enchantments (06)
1 Curiosity
1 Future Sight
1 Paradox Haze
1 Thought Reflection
1 Mirror Sheen
1 Mind Over Matter
Artifacts (09)
1 Sol Ring
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Dreamstone Hedron
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Planar Portal
1 Crystal Shard
1 Temple Bell
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Land (38)
14 Island
13 Mountain
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Stream Vents
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Shivan Reef
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Eye of Ugin
Trinket Mage - Go fetch Sol Ring, Top, or whatever else you need.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir - While Teferi's most used purpose in most decks is to slow down your opponent and give you a little extra speed, he has an additional purpose in this deck. He stops your opponents from being able to respond to your resolving Suspend Triggers. This is invaluable.
Bogardan Hellkite - One of the most common creatures to suspend. He's excellent by himself, and he can wreck havoc off of a kicked Rite of Replication.
Inkwell Leviathan - What's better than massive creatures? Massive creatures with Shroud, and two kinds of evasion, that's what.
Izzet Chronarch - Combo piece with bounce effects and Extra Turn Spells, as well as getting a key spell back from the yard when you need it.
Rift Elemental - This guy can get big really quick. The best part, is that he eats Suspend counters to do it.
Djinn Illuminatus - The Djinn enables quite a few broken game states when you can copy any of your spells. He can usually end the game by copying extra turns, and can definitely end the game when pairing him with an infinite mana engine, and pretty much any spell in the deck.
Tidespout Tyrant - Besides being one of the most effective combo enablers in the deck, Tidespout Tyrant also has the added benefit of turning all of your spells into answers to problematic permanents. Things get crazy when he can bounce everything from the board but your stuff.
Magus of the Future - Magus is an amazing source of CA for the deck, and can also combo out with Future Sight and Top, as well as the aforementioned Tyrant.
Aeon Chronicler - Yay cards!
Pestermite - Makes infinite evasive faeries with Kiki-Jiki. If you're looking for a card to cut from the deck, this one is worth considering, since Kiki functions well with others cards just as well.
Arcanis the Omnipotent - Another massive CA machine, similar to Magus. If unchecked, Arcanis will drown your opponents in cards by 4-1. Also draws your deck with Mind Over Matter.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker - Completely broken card. Is the source of multiple combo wins (see below), as well as being able to copy utility creatures (like Trinket Mage) to generate CA.
Mnemonic Wall - Similar to Chronarch. Also combos with the same cards Chronarch does.
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind - Combo enabler (with Curiosity), and drawer of cards. Niv used to be my General, until I tossed him in here.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth - Game Ender 1. Suspend Board Wipe, then Suspend this to end the game in short order.
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre - Game Ender 2. Suspend Board Wipe, then Suspend this to end the game in short order.
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - Game Ender 3, and the best of them. Suspend Board Wipe, then Suspend this to end the game in short order.Reiterate - While it is already a staple card in red decks, able to copy game-winning spells you or your opponents might play (best with tutors and time warps), it is also one of the deck's infinite mana engines (with Turnabout). Depending on the situation, I will often tutor for Reiterate, especially if I have Turnabout in hand.
Cryptic Command - We're in blue.
Evacuation - Reset buttons are important. This is one of the best ones.
Force of Will - We also need some counter magic to protect our combos, and to stop other combos aimed at us. This one is great for when you're tapped out.
Intuition - Replaced Gifts Ungiven after it got banned.
Mystical Tutor - It gets combo pieces.
Fact or Fiction - One of the best draw spells in the format. Can also be used politically.
Hinder - Counterspell with the added bonus of being able to almost permanently deal with opposing Generals.
Wild Ricochet - The best of the redirect-type spells. Really shines off an opponent's Time Warp.
Desertion - I'm sorry, did you want that?
Stroke of Genius - Excellent draw spell. Also can draw your deck using an IME (infinite mana engine), as well as force your opponent's to deck themselves and win.
Turnabout - Really tricky card, and is the other half of one of the deck's IMEs.
Counterspell - Yep. It's Counterspell.
Sorceries
Bribery - I'm sure everyone has their own personal uses for this card, and certain creatures they like to get. I go straight for the green deck player, with one goal in mind: finding Seedborn Muse.
Rite of Replication - Every time I see this card being played, it's to do something completely broken.
Recurring Insight - I've recently started testing Insight, and I've found it to be a really effective draw tool.
Insurrection - 90% win ratio and counting.
Time Warp - I hear extra turns are nice.
Time Stretch - Even better! Try it with Mirror Sheen for even more flavor!
Time Spiral - The best of the Draw 7s. Is free, and gets stuff back from the yard, too.
Knowledge Exploitation - More and more players are starting to catch on to how good this card really is. The more I play it, the more I see people putting in their decks. Try it out, and see why.
Jokulhaups - Board Wipe 1. Suspend, then Suspend Eldrazi. Win.
Decree of Annihilation - Board Wipe 2. Suspend, then Suspend Eldrazi. Win. This one is preferred, due to its ability to take out answers in your opponent's hands.
Beacon of Tomorrows - Board Wipe 3. Suspend, then Suspend Eldrazi. Win.
Obliterate - Board Wipe 4. Suspend, then Suspend Eldrazi. Win.
Apocalypse - Board Wipe 5. Suspend, then Suspend Eldrazi. Win.
Gilded Lotus - A really good Mana Rock.
Dreamstone Hedron - A Mana Rock that can get you more cards.
Thran Dynamo - A Mana Rock for a nice chunk of colorless.
Sensei’s Divining Top - It's Top.
Planar Portal - Repeatable tutors are amazing in this format. This card is almost the first target on the board by opponents, short of the Jhoira. Can win the game outright with Beacon of Tomorrows.
Crystal Shard - Repeatable, consistent bounce to save your creatures, stop your opponents' creatures, or win with Mnemonic Wall and Time Warp.
Temple Bell - Deck everyone with Mind Over Matter, then win. Also, politics (naw, not really).
Lightning Greaves - Always wear protection.
Future Sight - Magus #2. Wins the game the same way he does, or provides massive CA in order to get there.
Paradox Haze - This card is the major strategy that gets your suspended cards out earlier, which makes you win the game faster. A common target for tutoring.
Thought Reflection - This cards works for me, but YMMV. Great for multiplayer, much too slow for 1v1.
Mirror Sheen - Another major combo piece, and a surprisingly effective political deterrent. No-one wants to see their spells hit them back, but you may want to see another Time Stretch with it. At it's best when unsuspending Time Stretch, or making infinite mana with Turnabout.
Mind Over Matter - CA engine with many different cards, and combo engine with others. Players often scoop to this card, so use it wisely.
Island - I've heard that having two of these in play can make your opponents scoop.
Mountain - ...but I've never seen anyone scoop to two mountains.
Boseiju, Who Shelters All - Forces you spells through an opponent's counter magic wall.
Riptide Laboratory - Bounces Jhoira (and others) away from harm.
Stream Vents - Important Dual Land.
Scalding Tarn - Important Fetchland.
Cascade Bluffs - Important Filterland.
Shivan Reef - Important Painland.
Izzet Boilerworks - Important Bounceland.
Academy Ruins - Gets dead artifacts back.
Tolaria West - Transmutes for any of the above lands.
Reliquary Tower - Useful for when you're comboing off by drawing the deck.
Eye of Ugin - Tutors for your Eldrazi win-cons.
When playing Magic, I tend to think of the game like a puzzle. I am constantly surveying the game state, checking my opponent's boards, studying their previous plays and patterns, and calculating the most effective play during any given turn. Since Jhoira typically plays as a combo deck, it is important to be aware of everything that is going on during a game, so you can time your win perfectly, and seal the game.
Your goal while playing Jhoira should be one of the two following options.
The first option is what I lovingly refer to as "The Doomsday Clock". In this first scenario, you slow play the game, keeping a relatively low profile during the opening turns. There is no reason to establish more hate for yourself than you already have just from playing Jhoira, since everyone probably expects this of you. Use your draw engines and search cards to dig up one of the three Eldrazi Titans (preferably Emakul) and one of your four board wipes (preferably Decree of Annihilation).
At this point, cast Jhoira (hopefully with counterspell backup, if you need it), then immediately Suspend both the board wipe and the Eldrazi. Any other fatty creature will do, but the Eldrazi are so powerful that they create inevitability. Once all the Time Counters are removed, stack the triggers so that the board wipe occurs first, then the fatty creature enters the battlefield. Now nobody has any permanents other than you. Smash face.
Enchantments like Paradox Haze, and creatures like Rift Elemental (who can get really big if you let him) can hasten the Time Counter removal process. Make sure that both spells are unsuspending at the same time, though, that is important. As always, hold on to counterspells if you need them to force your spells through.
The second option is to employ any number of infinite combos included in the decklist. This type of play is much more explosive, and tends to go off all in one dramatic turn. In this scenario, you play a more sneaky, political game. While you're using the same card engines to cycle through your cards, certain cards will start drawing into your hand that combo with others. The deck is designed so that many cards combo out with multiple other cards, so redundancy is rarely an issue. Tutors help drastically with assembling key combo pieces that enable you to win the game that much faster. Many of these combos only involve two cards, making them fairly easy to come across during a game.
Once you have any of the infinite combos in the deck (outlines in the section below), assess the board state one final time. If you can combo off safely, do so now, and win the game. Counterspell backup may be necessary (it usually is).
When playing Jhoira, its important to know exactly how her amazing ability can work for you. I've included the rules for exactly how suspend works, for reference.
o 502.59a Suspend is a keyword that represents three abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the card with suspend is in a player's hand. The second and third are triggered abilities that function in the removed-from-the-game zone. "Suspend N--[cost]" means "If you could play this card from your hand, you may pay [cost] and remove it from the game with N time counters on it. This action doesn't use the stack," and "At the beginning of your upkeep, if this card is suspended, remove a time counter from it," and "When the last time counter is removed from this card, if it's removed from the game, play it without paying its mana cost if able. If you can't, it remains removed from the game. If you play it this way and it's a creature, it gains haste until you lose control of it."
o 502.59b A card is "suspended" if it's in the removed-from-the-game zone, has suspend, and has a time counter on it.
o 502.59c Playing a spell as an effect of its suspend ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h.
This plays into one of the most effective strategies for casting Jhoira. Instead of Playing Jhoira as soon as possible, hold off until around turn five. If you can get Jhoira to stick, you can immediately pay 2 (like playing her for 3UR) and suspend whichever card you need to. You retain priority, so even if Jhoira immeditaly dies, the spell(s) are still suspended. This is critical, because Jhoira typically does not last long enough for you to untap with her in play. Lightning Greaves can help alleviate this problem, but suspending immediately after resolution is the most effective strategy.
Playing a combo deck is one of the main reasons to shuffle up and pilot Jhoira. There are many combos strewn throughout the deck, perhaps even more combos buried in the list that I have yet to find. Most of these will win the game outright, and the ones that do not, will create massive card advantage that should place you in position to win. It's worthy of note that any of the "draw your deck" combos enables you to combo out with any available combo that hasn't already been shut down.
One of the more well-known combos. Allows you to do infinite damage to every player at the table, and draw out your entire deck. You won't even deck yourself, thanks to any of the three Eldrazi Titans.
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind/Arcanis the Omnipotent + Mind Over Matter
Fulfills the same criteria as the above combo, only using different pieces.
Arcanis the Omnipotent/Temple Bell + Mind Over Matter
Another "draw your deck, combo out" victory, or use Temple Bell to pass the turn, and deck everyone else.
Izzet Chronarch/Mnemonic Wall + Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker/Crystal Shard + Time Warp/Time Stretch
This combo is interchangeable with six different cards. Use Kiki or Shard to bounce Chronarch or Wall, getting back Warp or Stretch from the yard for infinite turns.
Mnemonic Wall + Rite of Replication + Time Warp/Time Stretch
Another method of recurring cards for infinite turns, by bringing back both Rite and Time when Rite is kicked on the Wall.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Pestermite
Kiki-Jiki untaps when 'mite comes into play, creating infinite hasty, flying faeries.
Time Warp/Time Stretch + Mirror Sheen
Mirror Sheen copies extra turns for (generally) each three mana you have available. This is much more effective when activated off of a suspended Stretch.
Turnabout + Reiterate/Mirror Sheen (+ Stroke of Genius)
Generates infinite mana. Stroke of Genius can draw your deck, enabling any other available combo, or it can deck everyone at the table when Reiterated multliple times.
Planar Portal + Beacon of Tomorrows
Cast Beacon, shuffle Beacon into library, then take an extra turn. Find Beacon voa Portal, and cast it again. Repeat Ad Nauseam.
Future Sight/Magus of the Future + Sensei's Divining Top (+ Tidespout Tyrant)
Draw lots of cards on the cheap. Add Tidespout Tyrant for board wiping shenanigans.
I've also included here a variant of Jhoira of the Ghitu: my personal "Chaos deck" version. This deck has a lot more quirky and interesting interactions in it, and can be a blast to play.
I'd also suggest adding in Ancient Tomb to your mana base, since it provides an easy way to access the mana to activate her ability.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Yep, Jhoira's ability can be countered like any other activated ability using Trickbind, Stiffle, Voidmage Husher. If the ability is countered, in most cases, the spell will remain in exileland -- until someone is nice enough to retrieve that spell using Riftsweeper or Pull from Eternity.
On the other hand, when you play Jhoira during your turn wth 3UR available mana, you can immediately play 2 to use Jhoira's ability (though in my experience, unless your meta is full of split second spells, it is probably best to do so at the end of your opponent's turn). Your opponent cannot prevent you from activating Jhoira given that you retain priority after your opponent declines to respond to Jhoira while she is on the stack.
It looks a bit like you just crammed all the cool stuff and win conditions you could into one list, which leaves very little room for permission or removal. At least in 1v1, this is not a particularly good idea--Jhoira is pretty fast, but by no means the fastest. Your list looks like you can offer little resistance to a deck that can win before the Obliterate hits, or even against a slower deck packing disruption.
I disagree with running so many 2-card combos in a deck with no tutors (Planar Portal doesn't count, it's too slow for 1v1). For every game where you manage to hit the combo early and go infinite, there will be more where you're stuck with a useless Pestermite or something. You have all these combo cards that don't significantly advance your gameplan or hinder your opponent's...so why bother? It's not like Jhoira is short on ways to win. I think that you'd be better off cutting almost all of the combos and creatures that don't singlehandedly win the game, and just replacing them with disruption instead. You want around 5-8 more cheap counterspells, around 5 spot removal spells, and around 4 catch-all answers or artifact removal, to deal with stuff like Pithing Needle.
As it stands, your list looks like it's probably fine for multiplayer (especially if your group is competitive or dim-witted enough to not gang up on you immediately), but it needs a lot of work to compete in 1v1.
I have played around with Timesifter, and I like it. However, it's not good enough for the competitive list, so it didn't make the cut. I'd be much more inclined to put it in the second alternative strategy, which is my chaos deck. It could have a home there.
As for Tomb, the acceleration with pain isn't really necessary (because I usually "cast" Jhoira for 3UR, to get one suspend spell), and late game, it ends up hurting more than it helps.
This isn't what I'm getting at. See below.
This is exactly what I was talking about in the primer. This is usually the best strategy to casting Jhoira. I've slightly updated the word choice to better communicate this.
Nope, it's not necessarily meant for 1v1, but this is where all the Primers have been going. Though most Primers are for 1v1, this one is primarily multiplayer-based. I've added a disclaimer at the top.
Your comments all seem geared towards how the deck would function if this were played in 1v1, and in that case, I would agree with you on all points. If the deck were meant for 1v1 play (and I'm sure I'll post a list for it in here eventually), then I'd definitely have to add in much more permission in place of many of the weaker two cards combos. That would be the only way to survive against many decks, since 1v1 is a different beast entirely.
Once I get around to posting a 1v1 list (and I will), I'll be sure to have a decklist that addresses those issues, for players who want information on how to change the deck for 1v1 play. I wouldn't mind some help on a decklist, if you were up to it, since I know you're an established 1v1 EDH player.
One of the only ways to avoid this is through politics and diplomacy. On MODO it will be harder, because you don't have the same social aspect, and you can't really talk your way out of it.
In this case, I would suggest two things. First, is make sure one of your first actions during a game is helping out another player. Either through counterspelling a target aimed at them, or by removing something attacking them. This will set an example for that player, and the others will notice. On MODO, where you're always playing against different players, you can get away with doing this every game.
Second, try playing your games by establishing just enough board presence as to not arouse any suspicion, but to also be able to defend yourself. Don't always come out swinging. They say second place is the best spot to be in multiplayer games. Add in a few cards like Propaganda and War Tax to deter attackers. Bribery the first Blazing Archon you can find.
Hopefully this helps. We fight an uphill battle as soon as we announce our General.
I haven't found Jhoira to be a particularly good political general. I don't believe you can realistically lay low if your opponents have ever played against or read about Jhoira. Even if you're just playing lands and artifact mana and nothing else, everyone knows whats coming. They know you're going to be suspending Obliterates and Emrakuls. I've found people will either try to race Jhoira by trying to kill you quickly, or assemble answers to stop your bombs. I find when I'm playing Jhoira, I'm the archenemy. But no scheme deck
But that's okay. I use Energy Field and Glacial Chasm to survive the suspend delay, and cheap counters to make sure everything hits home. Twincast, Fork and the new M11 fork are great for doubling up your extra turns, but they also act as counter-counter spells. You can guarantee spot removal is heading your way, so I've found Not of this World and Confound great as well. Pyroblast takes care of counters, and Jhoira's own archenemy, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. I run more mass LD (you're missing Devastation, Boom/Bust, Sunder, the awesome Impending Disaster and a few others), so I try to stick to spells that are so expensive they need to be suspended, or are cheap enough to play post obliteration. 5-ish mana cards can be disappointing to have to suspend. And it's got to be fast fast fast- everyone will try to kill you or lock you out as fast as they can, so Ancient Tomb is great, and I even run Crystal Vein for the extra boost.
Cards I find disappointing are Thought Reflection. It's a win-more card. Yeah, you can draw 15 cards in a turn off of it, but that means you were already drawing a good amount. It's too slow for as big a lightning rod as Jhoira. I can't think of an instance where I'd want Thought Reflection in hand rather than a bomb to suspend (like Sundering Titan), a counterspell, or a straight draw spell.
Magus of the Future and Future Sight seem awesome, but you can't suspend off of the library, so they don't really serve that much of a purpose.
You have some stuff with real mass LD anti-synergy. Sure you can suspend Planar Portal into play, but it costs 6 to activate, which will feel pretty steep after all you're lands are gone. I'd replace it with just raw draw. It's inconceivable to me than you aren't running Wheel of Fortune.
I also strongly agree with the criticism about being random combo heavy. I'd focus more on the core strategy- Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind would be better for UR combo.
It's a solid build to be sure, but whether for multiplayer or singleplayer, I think it could be much more competitive.
You're correct, she isn't a good political general, but that's not what I'm implying. To play Jhoira against players who know what's coming you yourself have to be diplomatic, or yes, the table will overrun you.
Unfortunately, I don't agree with some of your points. Teferi is already in the deck, so that's good. However, you mention that you cast spells post-Obliterate. This doesn't usually work. If you're casting Obliterate, then it should be to seal the game right then with an Eldrazi or other game-winning creature, not just to wipe the board and then try to recover. It's understandable if you're about to die, but I've found that's usually a desperation move. I've been there, and it isn't a good position to be in. I wouldn't make that a primary strategy.
There really shouldn't have to be any mass LD anti-synergy. Once the LD spell is cast, you should be in position to win the game, with or without any other permanents. Planar Portal really is an amazing card. I've assembled the majority of my combos off of it, and 6 plus the activation really isn't as bad when you aren't constantly blowing up your lands.
I love cards like Fork and Swerve as much as anyone else (check my chaos list), but in the competitive list, there isn't much to cut for them. Wild Richochet already does that job better than any other card does, and I frequently use it for exactly that.
Magus and Future Sight are amazing. You don't have to suspend cards from them to see their immediately benefits in card advantage. Even without SDT, they are great, but with Top, you can usually win the game. I like winning the game, so I play them.
Also, Niv-Mizzet is just as hated. I started out using him, and after a couple of years of playing the deck, I've found Jhoira is superior. The combos are far from random; playing with the amount I do ensures that they happen in short order, as opposed to digging for one main combo, and having it get shut down. Treat them as engines (sans Pestermite, which I'm considering replacing), and it works out fine, because most of the cards combo with more than one other card. If you focus more on the core strategy, and it gets shut down, what do you do?
I like Thought Reflection, and it's worked well for me, but I can admit it's about as situational as NotW might be for you. Of all the suggestions to cut, I think this one is the best. I may replace it with Wheel of Fortune, but it requires some more testing. I like Wheel, but I like Time Spiral better. I'll give it a run.
This is only one example of a competitive list. If you find that other cards work best for you, then run those cards. If you are more successful with Impending Doom, then use it. I wouldn't advocate copying anyone's list to the letter, no matter what format I'm playing in. That's what makes EDH fun.
With T1 Vault, you have T2 Jhoira + Suspend, which is too quick for most decks to handle.
Also, where is the Fury Charm, Clockspinning, and Timecrafting? These cards are necessary for 1v1, and in multiplayer, there is nothing better than flashing your Obliterate down EOT. Usually in multiplayer with a Jhoira deck people will attack you first out of principle, and having your wipe come down faster is good at preventing... well... death.
I've played a lot with and against a similar deck, and the faster your spells unsuspend, the better off you will be. I can't tell you how many times I thought I would be able to kill before the wipe came down, only to be destroyed when my friend played any of the above cards.
WUBRG
Enchant World
When EDH comes into play, the game is a draw. Each player reveals his or her library to all other players, discusses how cool their deck is, and has a good laugh.
Isn’t this a better version of Magic than playing “net decks”?
i like to win!! but i had to realize, that it is no fun at all to win your game all by the exactly same move (if you like that, play Zur!!!)...suspending a board-wipe followed by a fatty...that is boring...for my and for my opponents...and i think you can play a strong jhoira deck and not falling asleep while playing it..
cut some borad wipes...2-3 is enough!!
dont play the super boring combos such as niv + curiosity or Kiki + pest...
the result is, after some games your opponent will realize that you arent killing the fun in the game and you will start living longer...;) and having more fun
just a thought!!!
I think winter orb/static orb/stasis must be run in this deck. They are cheap ways to soft lock the board while you suspend. Secondly, they are way more ways to tutor artifacts in blue: Fabricate, Tezzeret, Transmute artifact, Reshape, muddle the mixture (only for winter orb/stasis).
Plus she was one of his best friends.
The rule says: "When the last time counter is removed from this card, if it's removed from the game, play it without paying its mana cost if able. If you can't, it remains removed from the game. If you play it this way and it's a creature, it gains haste until you lose control of it."
So it says " play it without paying its mana cost if able". Does this mean that if I have a creature suspended and use Rift Elemental to remove the last counter on an opponents turn, then it will just be exiled because it doesn't have flash?
I get that the colors and low cost of it make it seem ideal, but I really find it being dead weight and a horrible top deck if I am behind and need an answer. Sure the once in a blue moon that you get a time stretch out of suspend or something and copy it, but other than that it's a really flimsy twincast/fork on a stick.
That is my experience at least, I want to see if anyone is having success with this card really.
:symu::symr::symw::symb::symg: Dream Halls :symu::symr::symw::symb::symg:
:symu::symw: U/W/x Landstill (now Miracles) :symu::symw:
:symu::symu: Merfolk :symu::symu:
contact me!
Also, now that he's availible, Ol' Snappy seems like an auto-in.
I'm gonna try it in my build. I found this primer via search and it's pretty interesting!
Because we care about facts.
According to the current ban list (November 8, 2012) they are banned and have never been unbanned.
Thanks to Rivenor for the awesome sig!
Wants Bloodbraid Elf banned in modern
:DWish granted as of January 27, 2013!:D