Some cards will fill multiple roles. For example, Mwonvuli Acid-Moss is ramp, but it's also land destruction. Below are some cards that are powerful options, but I choose to leave out of my build. Some I just haven't found room for yet, and others I've tested but found less than extraordinary. Hopefully the list below can give you some other good ideas.
Can't find room for these guys yet: Rude Awakening- Got got cut in favor of Genesis Wave. Genesis Wave is too good. Hall of Gemstone- Absolutely need to find a slot for this. Extremely strong. Stop counter-magic and creature hate (terminate, bounce etc.) that would ruin your alpha strikes. Deadwood Treefolk- Card advantage for sure. Seems even stronger with Greater Good. Need to find a slot for this guy. Silklash Spider- If it flies, it dies. Great utility, but I have not yet found a slot for him. If your group plays all of the tri-colored dragons, he is a very powerful option. Fierce Empath- Haven't tested this guy yet. Soul's Majesty- Haven't tested this either.
Explanation for cards that aren't in the cut:
Just Lame:
Eldrazi- They are lame. They are bad for the format. They are seriously no fun to play with, or against. Sensei's Divining Top- I hate this card in EDH. People waste tons of time on it- topping, and then topping again. People always have to check right at the last EOT step just to make sure. Yes, it is good and gives you additional card selection, but it tricks you into thinking it's card advantage. I'm not a fan, let's just leave it at that. Helix Pinnacle- Pretty lame. This card is for douches who think it's funny to see if they can get there. In an Omnath deck, I feel it's almost as bad as playing Felidar Sovereign. Sword of the Paruns (and other untappers)- I avoid two card combos. They are lame.
Additional ramp options:
Grim Monolith- Made infinite colorless mana combined with Mana Reflection. I'm not a fan of two card combos, so I took Monolith out of the deck. Into the North- I'd use it if I ran Dark Depths. Into the North is best friends with Dark Depths, Mouth of Ronin, and Scrying Sheets. Far Wanderings- Only strong with threshold, which can often be too late for this to matter much anymore. Thins a little. Strong w/ Avenger. Got cut in later rounds of tweaking. Journey to Discovery- Ramps you 2 lands. 6 cost entwined is a bit high. Growth Spasm- More explosive than Cultivate or Kodama's Reach. I prefer the card advantage of the latter cards though. Mind Stone- Decent option. I chose Everflowing Chalice over the Stone though. Doubling Cube- Looks fun, but also looks like a win-more card. Dead draw early.
Additional hate/destroy cards:
Feast of Worms- If you play a land destruction strategy, this card is a must include. Set your opponent back two land drops and get rid of that pesky lands like Urborg. Sundering Titan- Land destruction makes everyone sad. I would put this guy back in if I were going to a tournament, but as far as casual play goes- he's dropped. Nevinyrral's Disk/Oblivion Stone- I rely too much on my own artifacts and enchantments. Without the ability to tutor out these cards, they aren't worth the slots. My deck throws down permanents. Period. Having a reset is nice, but not at the cost of the set-up cards. Mold Shambler- He is great, but you can't Natural Order / Tooth and Nail him out. He is closer to a sorcery with legs than a utility hate creature. Viridian Shaman- Plenty of other creatures do what she does better. Relic Crush- Strong instant-speed 2 for 1. I prefer having my artifact and enchantment destruction on legs though. Rootgrapple- There are better options on legs. Creeping Mold- There are better options period.
Fogs:
Sunstone- Cool interaction with the snow lands, but Constant Mists is a better fit Constant Mists- Probably the right fog for the deck, if it turns out one is needed. Moment's Peace- A good 2 for 1 fog. If you play against swarming EDH decks a lot, I'd use this and Constant Mists to hold back the hordes until you can amass your own.
Lands to consider:
Dark Depths- Fun, but not optimal. Scrying Sheets- Cool interaction with snow lands, but once this goes active, there should only be 18 or so forests left in the deck. There are better mana dumps/card draw. Oran-Rief, the Vastwood- Not strong enough compared to my other cards. It let's you abuse the ☺☺☺☺ out of Woodfall Primus though. Tranquil Thicket- You have to keep the Forest count high to abuse Extraplanar Lens, Gauntlet of Power, and Vernal Bloom. Slippery Karst- See above.
1v1 Cards:
Plow Under- A 1v1 EDH card. You're better off developing your own board state and ramping out lands rather than stopping your momentum to Plow someone and make an enemy. Stunted Growth- See above. Lignify- Much stronger in 1v1 when hosing a single general makes a difference. Stampeding Wildebeests- They are a great option in general, and let you recycle your ETB triggers. Absolutely bonkers when combined with Eternal Witness, Regal Force, Avenger of Zendikar, or Primeval Titan. I list them in 1v1 because they help you in an attrition war, which is more likely to happen in a 1v1 matchup. In multiplayer games, this engine is more likely to get wrathed away or easily picked apart. Another player who posted on this forum suggested Defense of the Heart / Tooth and Nail for a Wildebeests and Eternal Witness, using and bouncing the witness to loop the Defense / Tooth effect. Stampeding Serrow- See above Erratic Portal- same explanation as Stampeding Wildebeests. Pros- it doesn't get wrathed away, and can bounce an opposing creature (of a tapped out opponent) or save one of your own in a pinch. Con- it is not tutorable in green.
Options for token themed decks:
Mossbridge Troll- This guy is a ton of fun. I had to cut him for stronger utility options. Better in token decks anyway. Vigor- Much stronger in decks with lots of creatures. The only time I put lots of creatures on the battlefield is with Gelatinous Genesis, Ant Queen, or Avenger of Zendikar. Wolfbriar Elemental- Not as strong as Ant Queen, but an effective way to get some fat on the table. If you're going the token route, I'd run him. Garruk Wildspeaker- Strong, but untutorable. Kamahl, Fist of Krosa is just better. Redundancy is a good thing, but Garruk requires a whole turn of set-up time. Overwhelming Stampede- Probably half a step worse than Kamahl, but still half a step stronger than Garruk. My deck wins with tokens often, but it is definitely not a token deck. This card is best in a different style of deck. Verdant Force- Extremely strong 7/7 that keeps on giving. I cut him for Ant Queen because Ant Queen is just stronger in the late game when you need to vomit creatures onto the board. Verdant Force is extremely strong in the early game, but that just forces you to tutor for him early when you don't necessarily need to.
Decks that plan to win primarily with Omnath 21 Genral damage:
Vorrac Battlehorns- A strong evasion option if your deck is geared entirely towards general damage Trailblazer's Boots- See above Rancor- If my deck revolved entirely around Omnath (as some lists do) this would be an auto-include. Not strong enough to earn a spot in my 99. Sword of Vengeance- Another way to turn Omnath into green Akroma. Unfortunately, it's not too threatening on most of my other creatures. A late cut. Bear Umbra- A great way to keep Omnath alive and kicking. The deck also doesn't lean on Omnath too hard, so over-protecting him isn't necessary.
Other good options without a category:
Dark Depths- Not fast enough. Can be pretty fun if you get it off, but this deck has better, faster options. Altar of Dementia- An alt win condition. Weak against Reanimating players and Gay-drazis shuffle effects. More fun than good.
Pelakka Wurm- Great life gain option when you're in a pinch. Efficient beater also. Taruju Preserver- My EDH group has agreed for the most part to not play Eldrazi. Taruju would probably be in the deck if we hadn't made aforementioned agreement. Multani, Maro Sorcerer- I used to use this guy as the general. Not as useful as a random one of in my deck though. Strong beater vs. decks that don't play many creatures. Krosan Tusker- Which leads to Tusker. He is not as strong in a mono green deck. He is most at home in a deck that requires color fixing. Azusa, Lost but Seeking- Omnath is great in Azusa EDH decks, but Azusa isn't necessarily great in an Omnath deck. Our land count is lower, she's useless late game. Quest for Renewal- Too fragile. Untutorable. Use Patron of the Orochi if you're dying for a second Seedborn Muse. Abundance- Good draw filter. It eventually needed to get cut. It's not really true card advantage, and you can't tutor it out. Patron of the Orochi- I never found myself tutoring him out when he was in the deck. Still a strong option for mono green. Engulfing Slagwurm- A respectable life gainer. I think Pelakka Wurm is just better because he is a sure thing compared to Slagwurm's Combat restrictions. Primal Command- I'm sure someone can tell me a time when this card was the money, and the exact topdeck they needed. 90% of the time though, it's a slow Summoner's Pact. Crop Rotation- I feel like giving up a land to go search up your Amazing land is just asking the player with the Strip Mine to target you. Somebody always has one. Sylvan Scrying- Again, you don't want to spend time/mana searching for a land just to get it nuked. Nature's Will- You need lots of creatures to make this strong. My count is often too low for any to get through. A strong option against a player with a lot of permission though. Gauntlets of Chaos- A fun EDH card that allows green to do something it certainly shouldn't be able to. It's just unfortunate that you have to fill so many requirements for it to work correctly. 10 mana + the correct permanent to give away + something worth taking.
If you guys have any great success with any of these cards, please let me know. If you see something that you believe is missing, please hollar. I try to avoid going overboard with tutors when I build EDH. At the same time however, I need utility cards that I can go grab with the tutors which I do play. Since green only tutors up lands/creatures, enchantments/artifacts that are only mildly powerful don't always have a place in the deck.
Playing the deck is self explanatory. Ramp, disrupt, beat down. The draw engines/library manipulation and ramp are what win the game.
i like the build
but the Sensei's Divining Top its is way better than Crystal Ball cost 1 to cast and 1 to look the top 3 , sure i cant put them on the bottom, but i can save my Top with is other ability
I agree with fter, SDT is superior to Crystal Ball. Other thoughts:
Gaea's Cradle might be a good choice, depending on how many creatures you run. Yavimaya Hollow is another good land to consider.
You're running Snow Lands, so you may as well throw in Mouth of Ronom. With that, plus Strip Mine and friends, you might want to add Life from the Loam.
I might add some more creatures to dump mana into with omnath (in case the worst should happen) I like ant queen: "So you kill my 87/87 omnath? Ok i will make 43 ants. Overrun FTW next turn? Also: run overrun and overwhelming stampede. Also treetop village. Also rancor. Cloudthresher and hurricane helps get rid of pesky faeries etc. Harmonize and momentous fall. Harmonize is arguably the best green draw card ever printed. Maybe you could think about mirri's guile? It is like top, but you don't have to pump mana into it. Another card I found clutch in so many situations is brooding saurian. I feel your deck basically gets a lot of mana... and then doesn't do a lot with it. Omanth is great, but he doesn't have trample, so its far too easy to block him for basically all time.
Also you say you want to build a quasi-land destruction deck. Honestly this deck doesn't have enough to effectively do it in multiplayer. I mean if people know you are playing LD, they will hate you out. Maybe even before the blue player! I count at most 15 lands destroyed over 8 cards. It would be like building a counter deck with only 15 counterspells. There are just not enough there.
Your analysis of Greater Good it kinda crazy. It is the one card that makes my mono-green tick more than any other card. When you are playing "Big Green Dumb" you will get your guys killed, you will get your guys stolen, and with Green you mana to burn. I actually tutor for Omnath in my Azusa deck all the time just so I can sac him to draw the cards. I agree that Eldrazi are dumb, but I do run a couple non-legendary Eldrazi because they almost like Regal Force 2-3. I don't know, but this deck seems pretty combo-esque and being able to dig 20 cards deep with an attack fails seems pretty good.
fter- i already gave you my reasoning for not playing top.
Arch- gaea's cradle is a valid suggestion, but i usually don't swarm the field unless i drop avenger or verdant force.
Yavimaya Hollow isn't a bad choice, but I'd always want to tutor out a mikokoro or winding canyons instead. I need to keep the forest count high to accomodate Vernal Bloom, Extraplanar Lens, and Gauntlet of Power. Same with Mouth of Ronom.
Worldly Tutor is technically card disadvantage. I'd run Summoner's Pact over it personally.
Deadwood Treefolk is definitely solid. I might try to work it in.
Vedalken Orrery is another card I might try to work in. Thanks for the feedback!
Explosive Donut- Ant Queen is okay. She was in the early incarnation of the deck, but she got cut. I think Avenger of Zendikar and Verdant Force are worthy alternate choices for her.
Overrun/Stampede- Only good if I have one of the two token makers in my deck out. Dead card if I don't. Besides, I have a tutorable Overrun in Kamahl.
Treetop Village- can't take a forest slot because of Vernal Bloom, Extraplanar Lens, and Gauntlet of Power
Rancor- Should probably run it, thanks for the suggestion.
Cloudthresher/Hurricane- I have forcefield to just negate the issue of fat flyers. I'm also adding Sunstone to the deck soon.
Harmonize is inferior to Mind's Eye, Memory Jar, and Skullclamp. I don't need it.
Momentous Fall- another example of a card that is a bit situational. I don't like the fact that it can be completely dead at times. The potential power of it is negated by it's potential to be a blank top-deck / draw.
Mirri's Guile- unnecessary. untutorable.
Brooding Saurian- a great utility creature. I don't have an issue with permanent stealage in my playgroup, but this would be in there if i did.
Galspanic- I have maybe 8 creatures give or take that would be good to sac out to Greater Good. I don't know if that justifies the card.
I had someone play Insurrection on me tonight with eight 3/4 plant tokens, Terastodon, Azusa, and Eternal Witness. Thank God for Greater Good. There are just so many time where your creature is going to die, so you might as well replace him with something.
I get that you think you don't have enough creatures to warrant the card, but you do. With all the ramp and Omnath it's nuts. Scenario: Omnath is a 20/20 creature, attack and sac him during your second main phase, draw 20 cards, toss 3. You now have a ton of answers or mana accelerators and you can just play him again. He won't be a 20/20 anymore, but you now have the perfect hand and are totally set up for next turn. Being able to access Omnath from the general zone should sell it.
@amp just because you have one card that does something, doesn't mean you don't need more than one.
Plus Momentous Fall and Hurricane when you have a massive omnath is basically an instant win combo. Gains crap-tons of life, hurricane to kill everyone.
About overrun/stampede: even still they give omnath trample. Which is really good and important.
Also I find in Omnath verdant force is far less superior to ant queen. Sure its bigger, but you can make a lot more tokens with ant queen much faster.
And if momentous fall is almost never a dead card. Someone terrors omnath? Oh, ok, I will just get a stupid amount of life and cards instead. Need a creature thats in your graveyard? Momentous fall Genesis at the end of their turn. "I'll gain 4 life, draw 4 cards and get a creature back to my hand." It has gotten me out of so many sticky situations its not even funny. It's a dead card if you are winning, and a game changer if you are losing.
Thanks for posting your deck, I've got an Omnath deck going and this really gives me some good ideas. Winding Canyons is some savage beatings, definitely a great addition to this deck. My deck took a turn down a slightly different path, as I was having issues getting through with Omnath, and I really didn't have any consistent ways to give him trample.
Anyways, in the interest of being able to end games in any situation, I've found that there are plenty of times when Omnath can get....nullified. Altar of Dementia can generate a win out of no where if you can't get there by swinging. Green has access to some I win cards like Gelatinous Genesis, and enough mana to make things like Squall Line or Winter Blast lethal (assuming Omnath is enormous). Also, I wouldn't discount the power of Doubling Cube, it works wonders in my deck, allowing me to dump a 16 card hand onto the table after I refill. Also, I agree with Mr. Donut about the Ant Queen. The Force wins on style every time, but in the interest of generating threats with the massive amount of mana you have, I give Ant Queen the nod(and think of using Winding Canyons to play the Queen and generate a ton of chump blockers/lethal number of attackers at instant speed, very sweet). I also like Fierce Empath in your deck, he can get Duplicant, Terastodon, Woodfall Primus, Primeval Titan, Multani, not to mention that he can be brought back by Genesis for further tutoring. In my experience, the format is so wide open that you really need access to your answers and he gets an answer to most problems. I understand your dislike of tutoring, I have a friend with a Sunforger based deck, but I feel that some is necessary from being blown out by random bombs.
First of all, let me say that I sincerely appreciate you guys taking the time to discuss my deck with me. I love this EDH dearly (99% foil, only missing Memory Jar), and look forward to tweeking it into a more polished product. Some of the suggestions that I've received so far are great. I'm wondering if there are cards that you guys have noticed that seem like they don't deserve a slot. Some have pointed out Crystal Ball (i've already defended it) and Verdant Force. Again, thanks for the feedback, and good luck EDH'ing to all
Galspanic- okay, i will give Greater Good a run. Doesn't hurt. I will make my own judgment after I've used it, instead of just basing my opinions on theory.
Explosive Donut- momentous fall is cool and everything, but i feel that between Greater Good, Winding Canyons, and Vedalken Orrery I'll be okay. as far as Overrun/Stampede, again, Kamahl is better. I got Whispersilk Cloak, Sword of Vengeance and Akroma's Memorial as well. I'm going to give Ant Queen a shot over Verdant Force.
Damnatio- I'm glad you got some cool ideas from the deck. Please make sure to let me know when you post your own. Altar of Dementia is absoulutely sick. Great idea, and I def want to try it now. Greater Good might beat it out, but def a sweet techy idea. It can be a double-edged sword if there is a reanimating player in your group, because it feeds Beacon of Immortality, Debtor's Knell, Rise from the Grave, etc. Gelatinous Genesis is a cool bomb. I've never thought of running it, but will give it a shot and see how it goes. It is def as you said, an 'I Win' card. Squall Line was weak when I had it in the deck. I never saw it when I wanted to see it, and it stinks when you're behind in life. Doubling Cube is so iffy. It def feels like an I-win-more card. It is also very gimmicky, and close to pointless unless Omnath is up and ready to bank all the mana/provide the startup mana. I'm going to give Ant Queen a shot. Fierce Empath's possible synergy with Genesis is cool. I usually don't have a hard time finding my answers. The deck's artifact based draw engines are pretty effective. It's a cool suggestion, but I don't find it necessary in my deck currently.
Cards you guys have suggested that are now under consideration/trial: deadwood treefolk, vedalken orrery, ant queen, greater good, gelatinous genesis, altar of dementia
More to come but I would say that almost undoubtedly Constant Mists is better than Sunstone no?
After reading all of the posts a few notes on everything.
First, I don't see your defense of Crystal Ball, yes, SDT is probably better but I feel the same way that you do about it and don't have it in my omnath deck. That being said, Mirri's Guile is cheaper, it doesn't cost anything to activate, and it both fixes your draws until removed, as well as coming down on turn 1. I can't imagine a significant enough justification to run crystal ball over it.
I know it's a little silly but why bother with milling using Altar of Dementia when you can just play Helix Pinnacle? I mean, it's not cool, and it's not likely, but is altar? You don't even have Berserk for the super altar combo. That being said, it's 100 mana for the game with shroud, you don't lose your creature and greater good is a better sac outlet, you don't need to take it out, but you shouldn't be running the lesser if you don't have the better (unless you don't want to play the card).
Doubling Cube is hands down amazing, considering we were just talking about Altar I'm surprised that you were calling it win more in comparison. A few scenarios:
Turn 7, 7 lands, cube on the table. Double, you have 8 mana! Woah! 8 lands = 10 mana, 9 = 12 etc.
When you have Gauntlet of Power, Extraplanar Lens, Vernal Bloom, Mana Reflection...and of course Seedborne Muse, it just gets stupid.
One thing that I think that you undervalue in your deck is quite certianly Omnath himself, as other people have mentioned he is significantly more likely to get on the board than any of your other creatures and therefore almost immediately renders all sacrifice outlets active.
What I've tried to do in my EDH deck is to cut back on costs that waste the mana that I want to be storing up, this is why I never considered cards such as: Crystal Ball, Thawing Glaciers, Scrying Sheets, Dust Bowl. I'm not saying they aren't good cards but Omnath is your primary win condition and while card advantage is good it's a question of cost.
I've also been considering sticking more artifact acceleration into my deck but two cards that I think you should consider in place of the artifact mana or others are Three Visits and Nature's Lore, both old and unknown but some of your best turn 2 options.
I really don't get why you like Mikokoro as much as you do, the combination with Mind's Eye is great but other than that you're giving your opponents free card advantage while chipping away at Omnath's pool. It's clearly a pet card since you repeatedly lavish it with praise but there are better ways for every color but red and white to draw cards and green has plenty. If I were you I'd remove it, replace it with a Reliquary Tower for obscene Greater Good/Momentous Fall if you choose to run them, they're both good in my opinion, I've also found that there are more uses for fall than pelakka wurm, just fyi.
Your analysis on Constant Mists seems correct. Constant Mists is better than Sunstone on a lot of fronts. Mists doesn't die to artifact destruction, allows you to sac any land, and is a free fog the first time you cast it. Sunstone's only plus is the fact that it doesn't require activation mana, a quality that I think you would enjoy.
As far as Crystal Ball, scry is amazing. I'd rather pay the 1 mana every turn and ditch trash I don't want than keep sifting it to the third card down. If you don't find a shuffle effect, you can run into the dilemma of having 3 lands/dead cards chilling on top. Mirri's Guile comes down faster, but that's assuming it's in your opening hand, the only time that would matter. Mid-late game, i feel that Crystal Ball>Mirri's Guile. The one mana that is required to activate it is totally worth it.
I agree with you that Greater Good>Altar of Dementia. The altar definitely has it's merits though. Being able to mill under a Moat, Constant Mists, etc. is a good option to have. That said, Greater Good is going in, and Altar is not.
As far as Helix Pinnacle, I just bought a foil one, but am very hesitant to play it. The players at my store would definitely frown upon it, and it seems douchy.
Doubling Cube is cool. It just isn't necessary imho. Gauntlet, Extraplanar, Vernal, and Reflection ramp me up a lot already. Cube would just take up another slot.
You make an excellent point on my undervaluing Omnath. Maybe my playgroup plays adifferent style of EDH than yours, but there are at least 6 wrath effects every game. This on top of the fact that I'm always the target of Path to Exiles, Swords, Brittle Effigy, etc. Because of this, I always play Omnath very cautiously. He never gets thrown out on turn 3, because that is just asking for him to get shot down under the turn 5 wrath. It usually is carefully timed when he comes out, to dodge hate and set up for the win at the right moment.
Mikokoro is great. Greater Good and Momentous Fall are great cards, but Mikokoro is reusable, and tutorable. There are two players in my group that sometimes play their mono black generals. Tutoring out a Mikokoro asap means that when the black myojin or mind twist hit, they'll have less lasting impact.
Pellaka Wurm is tutorable, and Momentous Fall is not. If i'm in a situation where I need to start gaining life back ASAP, i can find the wurm. I know Momentous is a great card, and can be absolutely nuts on a huge Omnath or Multani that are on their way to the graveyard. That said though, when my back is against the wall, and I need one of these two cards RIGHT NOW, Pellaka Wurm is the better answer.
Three Visits and Nature's Lore are decent. I feel that there are better options though. Mind Stone does its job until it's irrelevant, and then it cantrips. Into the North can be a sweet toolbox option if I ever decide to add Dark Depths into the deck. Dark Depths, Forest, Scrying Sheets, and even Mouth of Ronom all become tutorable. Then you got Sakura Tribe Elder and Grim Monolith. Sakura is recurrable, and Monolith creates a huge mana jump for turn 3 if you see it in your opener.
It looks like we just approach deck building from different angles. You seem to value mana efficiency and mana conservation whereas I look for utility at all points of the game (early-mid-late). I really like your suggestions, and wanna thank you for taking the time to critique my build. It should be cool having you as a resource to bounce new ideas off of, and evaluate upcoming sets as more potential cards for Omnath EDH are released.
Make omnath indestructable? Yes please
And patron is another seedborn muse. It untaps itself and has a nice 7/7 body.
oran-rief the vastwood seems good as well. Especially with woodfall primus to sac to greater good.
And defense of the heart is a thousand times better than tooth and nail. I run defense with stampeding wildabeests and eternal witness to pull the defense right back. Its really stupid. But my omnath deck is more about smashing people than green control.
Ash and Fire- I've thought of using Patron of Orochi before. I've never thought of it in terms of being a 2nd Seedborn Muse, which it pretty much is. A bit weaker since it would help opposing green players, but I like the idea.
The way the deck is taking shape, I agree that Oran Rief would be pretty good. It's better with Ant Queen than it was with Verdant Force.
Oh, just another random thought, Hunting Wilds > Explosive Vegetation. Will you really use the ability? Probably not. Is it nice to have it as an option? Yes.
Doesn't Sunstone require 2 mana to activate?
The main difference between our decklists I think is that I focus more on a voltron/Omnath is the most important card in the deck whereas you focus on answer to everything, wins will happen as they come but Omnath is not always the end all-be all.
Frankly, I started more on your side of the ballpark but it didn't really make all that much sense to me to have Omnath as the general and then barely even use him. Unless I had mana ramp on turn 3 I would almost always want to play Omnath that turn. While you're worried about who is going to wrath omnath on their turn, I'm more worried about who is going to kill or bounce him at the beginning of the damage step in the combat phase. While I may unfortunately be putting in a bit too much 1v1 ideal by going voltron it still seems like 5 general damage on turn 4 is a nice enough place to start. On top of that now I'm starting to focus on significantly lowering my curve and doing my best to get a t2 Omnath, which sounds even better when you're facing a sweeper table, but obviously more of a 1v1 advantage
In terms of making him survive wraths unfortunately that is more a White/Blue thing but I'm almost tempted to put shield of kaldra in my deck just because it's pretty sweet when you compare it to spearbreaker behemoth whose cost is a little disappointing. I already run a package of Vines of Vastwood, Stonewood Invocation, Avoid Fate, Aspect of Mongoose, Whispersilk Cloak, Lightning Greaves because I'm really not a fan of targetted removal which it seems like you do have some problems with on occasion.
I'm not going to say that you're doing it incorrectly but it does seem that Multani might be a more advantageous general for you to run. I get the liking Mikokoro but you're playing mono green and almost every deck that you are playing against will be happier to receive the cards that you are giving them for free than you will be to draw an extra card each time you pay the mana, this is even more true for a 4+ person table. That's great that you are recuperating from a discard effect but oh hey! you just happened to give your opponent another discard effect for free! I'm sure you value it enough not to change it but the reason that you don't play Mikokoro is the same reason that you don't play Eladamri's Vineyard or Magus of the Vineyard, it's great to give yourself that advantage, but is what you can do with that extra card/2 mana really better than what the other decks can do with it even if it's not their color? Probably not, and in addition to that, unless you're so far behind than everyone else is pitying and not focusing you, mono green doesn't do the best at playing group hug.
I'm honestly still trying to figure out what the best options are for everything but I don't get that much opportunity to play EDH when I want to, but I'll get back to you if I have any more developments.
Zinc- You're definitely correct- Hunting Wilds is purely better than Explosive Vegetation. If Explosive V doesn't get cut (it's one of the next cards on the chopping block), it's turning into a Hunting Wilds soon as I can scrounge up a foil one.
Sunstone- it seems it does require the 2 mana. Constant Mists>Sunstone for sure then. I guess I was just trying a little too hard to get the extra umph out of the snow lands i bought.
I totally get your hating on Mikokoro, Center of the Sea. I really do. To me though, it's still a fetchable source of card draw (i'm not a fan of Citanul Woodreaders or Masked Admirers). I think it's worth playing Mikokoro just to have the option when the only downside is one land slot. I would say that the majority of the time that I'm using it, I have Mind's Eye on the table anyway. I don't just blindly get it every game and activate it every turn. Winding Canyons is always the number one target of a land fetch/tutor. Now that I'm adding Oran-Rief, the Vastwood I think Oran-Rief will be the second, with Dust Bowl coming out as necessary. If i ever do a card by card analysis, I'll make sure to explain that it should only really be used in conjunction with Mind's Eye, or as a last resort (trying to help everyone at the table find an answer to the one guy who is going to win next turn).
It's really interesting that you suggest Multani, Maro-Sorcerer as a general. I played Multani as my general before I created this EDH, and that deck was completely overhauled to create this one. As you've picked up on though, there are still traces of it lingering around, the most evident of which is my love of Mikokoro. Multani was insanely fun to play, and back then the number one land tutor was Hall of the Bandit Lord. Good times. Alas, my group convinced me that I should switch generals (they absolutely HATED him), and I moved on to Omnath. The moment I figured out that I would not be going back to Multani was the first time I used Omnath's mana bank to save himself via a Winding Canyons. That synergy was so amazing, that I was convinced that the tricks that you can pull off with Omnath outweighed the hilarity of Multani KOing someone on turn 5.
We definitely have different play styles. One thing I try to do when creating an EDH deck is make sure it can function without the general. I understand that from your perspective, I've taken it to an extreme, and don't use Omnath enough to justify making him my general. They are just two different chains of logic, and neither is wrong. Either way, I'm glad we can carry out intelligent discussion on the deck and the pros and cons of various chard choices.
Hall of Gemstone is my newest fixation. It's by no means new tech, but I had never realized all of its benefits until reading another Omnath thread. It's clear that it protects you from counter-magic and instant speed removal, but I never thought about how it screws over multicolored decks... Hall of Gemstone makes it extremely difficult to cast any 3 colored general, or any multicolored spell. I am contemplating putting it in, and I think it would be a great addition to your deck, Zinc. It disrupts quickly, and can lock them out of the colors they need to disrupt you. It doesn't matter that your lands would make a different color, because you'd have all the green mana chilling on your Omnath. I don't see it in your decklist either, so let me know what you think.
Oh I've gone through like 7 alterations on the deck and just haven't updated it, the old one is just a little ☺☺☺☺ty atm.
On top of that, I'm always a bigger fan of building around the general rather than just focusing on the colors and rarely bother doing it unless it actually has a streamlined purpose (though not Zur level streamlined).
I like the hall of Gemstone, it's definitely a major upgrade over the leyline of lifeforce that I have in my deck, though it is a tad bit unfortunate for vedalken orrery and Winding Canyons. That being the only thing bad about it being the same reason that I don't run Dosan the Falling Leaf, it does have sufficient other capabilities to make it worhwhile, including color screwing everyone.
Zinc- you don't get silenced necessarily on other players' turns, just color hosed. if you have green mana stored with Omnath, your Vedalken Orrery and Winding Canyons will be all good, because you'll have tons of green mana charged up and ready to go.
It could hinder you from flashing Omnath in during someone else's turn, but if Omnath was already in play, Hall of Gemstone would be a choke on a lot of different players.
With the amount of Gauntlet of Power effects in your deck, I definitely think Sculpting Steel would be worthwhile. But if you do put it in, I would have to strongly suggest Doubling Cube as others have, simply because having TWO OF THEM would make Omnath out-of-control ridiculous.
Gauntlets of Chaos is kind of mediocre, in my opinion. It's really good if one of your opponents has something incredible on the board, but I feel like anything you would be getting out of it would be counterproductive to the focus of your deck.
Azure- thanks. yeah, i had gauntlets in the deck for 3 days maybe, and never drew it. So i never saw it in action. I decided to go with maze of ith instead. I can fetch a maze of Ith, and it makes Primeval even better in my deck. Plus maze can allow you to save other people points of damage and allow you to make more allies. I'm not 100% sold on the maze, but it is an answer to fatties swinging at me that i can pull up at a moment's notice.
still trying to work Hall of Gemstone in even though it's just an untutorable singleton.
Crop Rotation- I do have utility lands, some of which are insane as I'll explain later. I just don't like the sac requirement and you lost too much tempo if someone wastelands or strip mines your target land.
When you mention tempo loss, are you referring to the land that you try to sacrifice, or the land that you tutor for after you play Crop Rotation? The land that you sacrifice is part of the cost of playing the spell, so it can't be responded to with a Strip Mine.
Photos available here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6511076#post6511076 near the bottom, post #206
1 Omnath
Beef/additional win conditions:
2 Ant Queen
3 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
4 Avenger of Zendikar
5 Gelatinous Genesis
6 Genesis Wave
Creature Tutors:
7 Natural Order
8 Tooth and Nail
9 Summoner's Pact
10 Green Sun's Zenith
11 Chord of Calling
12 Defense of the Heart
Mana Doublers:
13 Extraplanar Lens
14 Gauntlet of Power
15 Vernal Bloom
16 Mana Reflection
17 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Mana Ramp:
18 Sakura-Tribe Elder
19 Wood Elves
20 Farhaven Elf
21 Yavimaya Dryad
22 Solemn Simulacrum
23 Primeval Titan
24 Reap and Sow
25 Explosive Vegetation
26 Hunting Wilds
27 Skyshroud Claim
28 Cultivate
29 Kodama's Reach
30 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
31 Akroma's Memorial
32 Lightning Greaves
Recursion:
33 Eternal Witness
34 Genesis
Answers to Creatures:
35 Maze of Ith
36 Brittle Effigy
37 Duplicant
38 Steel Hellkite
39 Predator, Flagship
40 Desert Twister
41 Spine of Ish Sah
Answers to Non-Creatures/the Hate:
42 Krosan Grip
43 Acidic Slime
44 Woodfall Primus
45 Terastodon
Draw Power/Library Manipulation:
46 Regal Force
47 Greater Good
48 Momentous Fall
49 Mind's Eye
50 Memory Jar
51 Scroll Rack
52 Sylvan Library
53 Skullclamp
Utilty:
54 Diamond Valley
55 Seedborn Muse
56 Brooding Saurian
57 Bellowing Tanglewurm
58 Oracle of Mul Daya
59 Praetor's Counsel
60 Vedalken Orrery
61 Mindslaver
62 Mana Crypt
63 Sol Ring
64 Mana Vault
Lands:
65 Strip Mine
66 Wasteland
67 Dust Bowl
68 Gaea's Cradle
69 Miren, the Moaning Well
70 Mosswort Bridge
71 Reliquary Tower
72 Winding Canyons
73 Yavimaya Hollow
Some cards will fill multiple roles. For example, Mwonvuli Acid-Moss is ramp, but it's also land destruction. Below are some cards that are powerful options, but I choose to leave out of my build. Some I just haven't found room for yet, and others I've tested but found less than extraordinary. Hopefully the list below can give you some other good ideas.
Can't find room for these guys yet:
Rude Awakening- Got got cut in favor of Genesis Wave. Genesis Wave is too good.
Hall of Gemstone- Absolutely need to find a slot for this. Extremely strong. Stop counter-magic and creature hate (terminate, bounce etc.) that would ruin your alpha strikes.
Deadwood Treefolk- Card advantage for sure. Seems even stronger with Greater Good. Need to find a slot for this guy.
Silklash Spider- If it flies, it dies. Great utility, but I have not yet found a slot for him. If your group plays all of the tri-colored dragons, he is a very powerful option.
Fierce Empath- Haven't tested this guy yet.
Soul's Majesty- Haven't tested this either.
Explanation for cards that aren't in the cut:
Just Lame:
Sensei's Divining Top- I hate this card in EDH. People waste tons of time on it- topping, and then topping again. People always have to check right at the last EOT step just to make sure. Yes, it is good and gives you additional card selection, but it tricks you into thinking it's card advantage. I'm not a fan, let's just leave it at that.
Helix Pinnacle- Pretty lame. This card is for douches who think it's funny to see if they can get there. In an Omnath deck, I feel it's almost as bad as playing Felidar Sovereign.
Sword of the Paruns (and other untappers)- I avoid two card combos. They are lame.
Additional ramp options:
Into the North- I'd use it if I ran Dark Depths. Into the North is best friends with Dark Depths, Mouth of Ronin, and Scrying Sheets.
Far Wanderings- Only strong with threshold, which can often be too late for this to matter much anymore. Thins a little. Strong w/ Avenger. Got cut in later rounds of tweaking.
Journey to Discovery- Ramps you 2 lands. 6 cost entwined is a bit high.
Growth Spasm- More explosive than Cultivate or Kodama's Reach. I prefer the card advantage of the latter cards though.
Mind Stone- Decent option. I chose Everflowing Chalice over the Stone though.
Doubling Cube- Looks fun, but also looks like a win-more card. Dead draw early.
Additional hate/destroy cards:
Sundering Titan- Land destruction makes everyone sad. I would put this guy back in if I were going to a tournament, but as far as casual play goes- he's dropped.
Nevinyrral's Disk/Oblivion Stone- I rely too much on my own artifacts and enchantments. Without the ability to tutor out these cards, they aren't worth the slots. My deck throws down permanents. Period. Having a reset is nice, but not at the cost of the set-up cards.
Mold Shambler- He is great, but you can't Natural Order / Tooth and Nail him out. He is closer to a sorcery with legs than a utility hate creature.
Viridian Shaman- Plenty of other creatures do what she does better.
Relic Crush- Strong instant-speed 2 for 1. I prefer having my artifact and enchantment destruction on legs though.
Rootgrapple- There are better options on legs.
Creeping Mold- There are better options period.
Fogs:
Constant Mists- Probably the right fog for the deck, if it turns out one is needed.
Moment's Peace- A good 2 for 1 fog. If you play against swarming EDH decks a lot, I'd use this and Constant Mists to hold back the hordes until you can amass your own.
Lands to consider:
Scrying Sheets- Cool interaction with snow lands, but once this goes active, there should only be 18 or so forests left in the deck. There are better mana dumps/card draw.
Oran-Rief, the Vastwood- Not strong enough compared to my other cards. It let's you abuse the ☺☺☺☺ out of Woodfall Primus though.
Tranquil Thicket- You have to keep the Forest count high to abuse Extraplanar Lens, Gauntlet of Power, and Vernal Bloom.
Slippery Karst- See above.
1v1 Cards:
Stunted Growth- See above.
Lignify- Much stronger in 1v1 when hosing a single general makes a difference.
Stampeding Wildebeests- They are a great option in general, and let you recycle your ETB triggers. Absolutely bonkers when combined with Eternal Witness, Regal Force, Avenger of Zendikar, or Primeval Titan. I list them in 1v1 because they help you in an attrition war, which is more likely to happen in a 1v1 matchup. In multiplayer games, this engine is more likely to get wrathed away or easily picked apart. Another player who posted on this forum suggested Defense of the Heart / Tooth and Nail for a Wildebeests and Eternal Witness, using and bouncing the witness to loop the Defense / Tooth effect.
Stampeding Serrow- See above
Erratic Portal- same explanation as Stampeding Wildebeests. Pros- it doesn't get wrathed away, and can bounce an opposing creature (of a tapped out opponent) or save one of your own in a pinch. Con- it is not tutorable in green.
Options for token themed decks:
Vigor- Much stronger in decks with lots of creatures. The only time I put lots of creatures on the battlefield is with Gelatinous Genesis, Ant Queen, or Avenger of Zendikar.
Wolfbriar Elemental- Not as strong as Ant Queen, but an effective way to get some fat on the table. If you're going the token route, I'd run him.
Garruk Wildspeaker- Strong, but untutorable. Kamahl, Fist of Krosa is just better. Redundancy is a good thing, but Garruk requires a whole turn of set-up time.
Overwhelming Stampede- Probably half a step worse than Kamahl, but still half a step stronger than Garruk. My deck wins with tokens often, but it is definitely not a token deck. This card is best in a different style of deck.
Verdant Force- Extremely strong 7/7 that keeps on giving. I cut him for Ant Queen because Ant Queen is just stronger in the late game when you need to vomit creatures onto the board. Verdant Force is extremely strong in the early game, but that just forces you to tutor for him early when you don't necessarily need to.
Decks that plan to win primarily with Omnath 21 Genral damage:
Trailblazer's Boots- See above
Rancor- If my deck revolved entirely around Omnath (as some lists do) this would be an auto-include. Not strong enough to earn a spot in my 99.
Sword of Vengeance- Another way to turn Omnath into green Akroma. Unfortunately, it's not too threatening on most of my other creatures. A late cut.
Bear Umbra- A great way to keep Omnath alive and kicking. The deck also doesn't lean on Omnath too hard, so over-protecting him isn't necessary.
Other good options without a category:
Altar of Dementia- An alt win condition. Weak against Reanimating players and Gay-drazis shuffle effects. More fun than good.
Pelakka Wurm- Great life gain option when you're in a pinch. Efficient beater also.
Taruju Preserver- My EDH group has agreed for the most part to not play Eldrazi. Taruju would probably be in the deck if we hadn't made aforementioned agreement.
Multani, Maro Sorcerer- I used to use this guy as the general. Not as useful as a random one of in my deck though. Strong beater vs. decks that don't play many creatures.
Krosan Tusker- Which leads to Tusker. He is not as strong in a mono green deck. He is most at home in a deck that requires color fixing.
Azusa, Lost but Seeking- Omnath is great in Azusa EDH decks, but Azusa isn't necessarily great in an Omnath deck. Our land count is lower, she's useless late game.
Quest for Renewal- Too fragile. Untutorable. Use Patron of the Orochi if you're dying for a second Seedborn Muse.
Abundance- Good draw filter. It eventually needed to get cut. It's not really true card advantage, and you can't tutor it out.
Patron of the Orochi- I never found myself tutoring him out when he was in the deck. Still a strong option for mono green.
Engulfing Slagwurm- A respectable life gainer. I think Pelakka Wurm is just better because he is a sure thing compared to Slagwurm's Combat restrictions.
Primal Command- I'm sure someone can tell me a time when this card was the money, and the exact topdeck they needed. 90% of the time though, it's a slow Summoner's Pact.
Crop Rotation- I feel like giving up a land to go search up your Amazing land is just asking the player with the Strip Mine to target you. Somebody always has one.
Sylvan Scrying- Again, you don't want to spend time/mana searching for a land just to get it nuked.
Nature's Will- You need lots of creatures to make this strong. My count is often too low for any to get through. A strong option against a player with a lot of permission though.
Gauntlets of Chaos- A fun EDH card that allows green to do something it certainly shouldn't be able to. It's just unfortunate that you have to fill so many requirements for it to work correctly. 10 mana + the correct permanent to give away + something worth taking.
If you guys have any great success with any of these cards, please let me know. If you see something that you believe is missing, please hollar. I try to avoid going overboard with tutors when I build EDH. At the same time however, I need utility cards that I can go grab with the tutors which I do play. Since green only tutors up lands/creatures, enchantments/artifacts that are only mildly powerful don't always have a place in the deck.
Playing the deck is self explanatory. Ramp, disrupt, beat down. The draw engines/library manipulation and ramp are what win the game.
but the Sensei's Divining Top its is way better than Crystal Ball cost 1 to cast and 1 to look the top 3 , sure i cant put them on the bottom, but i can save my Top with is other ability
Gaea's Cradle might be a good choice, depending on how many creatures you run. Yavimaya Hollow is another good land to consider.
You're running Snow Lands, so you may as well throw in Mouth of Ronom. With that, plus Strip Mine and friends, you might want to add Life from the Loam.
Worldly Tutor is a great tutor to add.
With so many utility creatures, Deadwood Treefolk probably deserves a look.
And definitely Vedalken Orrery, it can let you save your stored mana if Omnath dies at an inopportune moment.
Hope this helps some
MTG L1 Judge
Also you say you want to build a quasi-land destruction deck. Honestly this deck doesn't have enough to effectively do it in multiplayer. I mean if people know you are playing LD, they will hate you out. Maybe even before the blue player! I count at most 15 lands destroyed over 8 cards. It would be like building a counter deck with only 15 counterspells. There are just not enough there.
MTG Rules adviser.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Arch- gaea's cradle is a valid suggestion, but i usually don't swarm the field unless i drop avenger or verdant force.
Yavimaya Hollow isn't a bad choice, but I'd always want to tutor out a mikokoro or winding canyons instead. I need to keep the forest count high to accomodate Vernal Bloom, Extraplanar Lens, and Gauntlet of Power. Same with Mouth of Ronom.
Worldly Tutor is technically card disadvantage. I'd run Summoner's Pact over it personally.
Deadwood Treefolk is definitely solid. I might try to work it in.
Vedalken Orrery is another card I might try to work in. Thanks for the feedback!
Explosive Donut- Ant Queen is okay. She was in the early incarnation of the deck, but she got cut. I think Avenger of Zendikar and Verdant Force are worthy alternate choices for her.
Overrun/Stampede- Only good if I have one of the two token makers in my deck out. Dead card if I don't. Besides, I have a tutorable Overrun in Kamahl.
Treetop Village- can't take a forest slot because of Vernal Bloom, Extraplanar Lens, and Gauntlet of Power
Rancor- Should probably run it, thanks for the suggestion.
Cloudthresher/Hurricane- I have forcefield to just negate the issue of fat flyers. I'm also adding Sunstone to the deck soon.
Harmonize is inferior to Mind's Eye, Memory Jar, and Skullclamp. I don't need it.
Momentous Fall- another example of a card that is a bit situational. I don't like the fact that it can be completely dead at times. The potential power of it is negated by it's potential to be a blank top-deck / draw.
Mirri's Guile- unnecessary. untutorable.
Brooding Saurian- a great utility creature. I don't have an issue with permanent stealage in my playgroup, but this would be in there if i did.
Galspanic- I have maybe 8 creatures give or take that would be good to sac out to Greater Good. I don't know if that justifies the card.
I get that you think you don't have enough creatures to warrant the card, but you do. With all the ramp and Omnath it's nuts. Scenario: Omnath is a 20/20 creature, attack and sac him during your second main phase, draw 20 cards, toss 3. You now have a ton of answers or mana accelerators and you can just play him again. He won't be a 20/20 anymore, but you now have the perfect hand and are totally set up for next turn. Being able to access Omnath from the general zone should sell it.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Plus Momentous Fall and Hurricane when you have a massive omnath is basically an instant win combo. Gains crap-tons of life, hurricane to kill everyone.
About overrun/stampede: even still they give omnath trample. Which is really good and important.
Also I find in Omnath verdant force is far less superior to ant queen. Sure its bigger, but you can make a lot more tokens with ant queen much faster.
And if momentous fall is almost never a dead card. Someone terrors omnath? Oh, ok, I will just get a stupid amount of life and cards instead. Need a creature thats in your graveyard? Momentous fall Genesis at the end of their turn. "I'll gain 4 life, draw 4 cards and get a creature back to my hand." It has gotten me out of so many sticky situations its not even funny. It's a dead card if you are winning, and a game changer if you are losing.
MTG Rules adviser.
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
Anyways, in the interest of being able to end games in any situation, I've found that there are plenty of times when Omnath can get....nullified. Altar of Dementia can generate a win out of no where if you can't get there by swinging. Green has access to some I win cards like Gelatinous Genesis, and enough mana to make things like Squall Line or Winter Blast lethal (assuming Omnath is enormous). Also, I wouldn't discount the power of Doubling Cube, it works wonders in my deck, allowing me to dump a 16 card hand onto the table after I refill. Also, I agree with Mr. Donut about the Ant Queen. The Force wins on style every time, but in the interest of generating threats with the massive amount of mana you have, I give Ant Queen the nod(and think of using Winding Canyons to play the Queen and generate a ton of chump blockers/lethal number of attackers at instant speed, very sweet). I also like Fierce Empath in your deck, he can get Duplicant, Terastodon, Woodfall Primus, Primeval Titan, Multani, not to mention that he can be brought back by Genesis for further tutoring. In my experience, the format is so wide open that you really need access to your answers and he gets an answer to most problems. I understand your dislike of tutoring, I have a friend with a Sunforger based deck, but I feel that some is necessary from being blown out by random bombs.
Galspanic- okay, i will give Greater Good a run. Doesn't hurt. I will make my own judgment after I've used it, instead of just basing my opinions on theory.
Explosive Donut- momentous fall is cool and everything, but i feel that between Greater Good, Winding Canyons, and Vedalken Orrery I'll be okay. as far as Overrun/Stampede, again, Kamahl is better. I got Whispersilk Cloak, Sword of Vengeance and Akroma's Memorial as well. I'm going to give Ant Queen a shot over Verdant Force.
Damnatio- I'm glad you got some cool ideas from the deck. Please make sure to let me know when you post your own. Altar of Dementia is absoulutely sick. Great idea, and I def want to try it now. Greater Good might beat it out, but def a sweet techy idea. It can be a double-edged sword if there is a reanimating player in your group, because it feeds Beacon of Immortality, Debtor's Knell, Rise from the Grave, etc. Gelatinous Genesis is a cool bomb. I've never thought of running it, but will give it a shot and see how it goes. It is def as you said, an 'I Win' card. Squall Line was weak when I had it in the deck. I never saw it when I wanted to see it, and it stinks when you're behind in life. Doubling Cube is so iffy. It def feels like an I-win-more card. It is also very gimmicky, and close to pointless unless Omnath is up and ready to bank all the mana/provide the startup mana. I'm going to give Ant Queen a shot. Fierce Empath's possible synergy with Genesis is cool. I usually don't have a hard time finding my answers. The deck's artifact based draw engines are pretty effective. It's a cool suggestion, but I don't find it necessary in my deck currently.
Cards you guys have suggested that are now under consideration/trial: deadwood treefolk, vedalken orrery, ant queen, greater good, gelatinous genesis, altar of dementia
After reading all of the posts a few notes on everything.
First, I don't see your defense of Crystal Ball, yes, SDT is probably better but I feel the same way that you do about it and don't have it in my omnath deck. That being said, Mirri's Guile is cheaper, it doesn't cost anything to activate, and it both fixes your draws until removed, as well as coming down on turn 1. I can't imagine a significant enough justification to run crystal ball over it.
I know it's a little silly but why bother with milling using Altar of Dementia when you can just play Helix Pinnacle? I mean, it's not cool, and it's not likely, but is altar? You don't even have Berserk for the super altar combo. That being said, it's 100 mana for the game with shroud, you don't lose your creature and greater good is a better sac outlet, you don't need to take it out, but you shouldn't be running the lesser if you don't have the better (unless you don't want to play the card).
Doubling Cube is hands down amazing, considering we were just talking about Altar I'm surprised that you were calling it win more in comparison. A few scenarios:
Turn 7, 7 lands, cube on the table. Double, you have 8 mana! Woah! 8 lands = 10 mana, 9 = 12 etc.
When you have Gauntlet of Power, Extraplanar Lens, Vernal Bloom, Mana Reflection...and of course Seedborne Muse, it just gets stupid.
One thing that I think that you undervalue in your deck is quite certianly Omnath himself, as other people have mentioned he is significantly more likely to get on the board than any of your other creatures and therefore almost immediately renders all sacrifice outlets active.
What I've tried to do in my EDH deck is to cut back on costs that waste the mana that I want to be storing up, this is why I never considered cards such as: Crystal Ball, Thawing Glaciers, Scrying Sheets, Dust Bowl. I'm not saying they aren't good cards but Omnath is your primary win condition and while card advantage is good it's a question of cost.
I've also been considering sticking more artifact acceleration into my deck but two cards that I think you should consider in place of the artifact mana or others are Three Visits and Nature's Lore, both old and unknown but some of your best turn 2 options.
I really don't get why you like Mikokoro as much as you do, the combination with Mind's Eye is great but other than that you're giving your opponents free card advantage while chipping away at Omnath's pool. It's clearly a pet card since you repeatedly lavish it with praise but there are better ways for every color but red and white to draw cards and green has plenty. If I were you I'd remove it, replace it with a Reliquary Tower for obscene Greater Good/Momentous Fall if you choose to run them, they're both good in my opinion, I've also found that there are more uses for fall than pelakka wurm, just fyi.
:symg::symg::symg:Omnath:symg::symg::symg:
:symw::symw::symw:Linvala:symw::symw::symw:
Your analysis on Constant Mists seems correct. Constant Mists is better than Sunstone on a lot of fronts. Mists doesn't die to artifact destruction, allows you to sac any land, and is a free fog the first time you cast it. Sunstone's only plus is the fact that it doesn't require activation mana, a quality that I think you would enjoy.
As far as Crystal Ball, scry is amazing. I'd rather pay the 1 mana every turn and ditch trash I don't want than keep sifting it to the third card down. If you don't find a shuffle effect, you can run into the dilemma of having 3 lands/dead cards chilling on top. Mirri's Guile comes down faster, but that's assuming it's in your opening hand, the only time that would matter. Mid-late game, i feel that Crystal Ball>Mirri's Guile. The one mana that is required to activate it is totally worth it.
I agree with you that Greater Good>Altar of Dementia. The altar definitely has it's merits though. Being able to mill under a Moat, Constant Mists, etc. is a good option to have. That said, Greater Good is going in, and Altar is not.
As far as Helix Pinnacle, I just bought a foil one, but am very hesitant to play it. The players at my store would definitely frown upon it, and it seems douchy.
Doubling Cube is cool. It just isn't necessary imho. Gauntlet, Extraplanar, Vernal, and Reflection ramp me up a lot already. Cube would just take up another slot.
You make an excellent point on my undervaluing Omnath. Maybe my playgroup plays adifferent style of EDH than yours, but there are at least 6 wrath effects every game. This on top of the fact that I'm always the target of Path to Exiles, Swords, Brittle Effigy, etc. Because of this, I always play Omnath very cautiously. He never gets thrown out on turn 3, because that is just asking for him to get shot down under the turn 5 wrath. It usually is carefully timed when he comes out, to dodge hate and set up for the win at the right moment.
Mikokoro is great. Greater Good and Momentous Fall are great cards, but Mikokoro is reusable, and tutorable. There are two players in my group that sometimes play their mono black generals. Tutoring out a Mikokoro asap means that when the black myojin or mind twist hit, they'll have less lasting impact.
Pellaka Wurm is tutorable, and Momentous Fall is not. If i'm in a situation where I need to start gaining life back ASAP, i can find the wurm. I know Momentous is a great card, and can be absolutely nuts on a huge Omnath or Multani that are on their way to the graveyard. That said though, when my back is against the wall, and I need one of these two cards RIGHT NOW, Pellaka Wurm is the better answer.
Three Visits and Nature's Lore are decent. I feel that there are better options though. Mind Stone does its job until it's irrelevant, and then it cantrips. Into the North can be a sweet toolbox option if I ever decide to add Dark Depths into the deck. Dark Depths, Forest, Scrying Sheets, and even Mouth of Ronom all become tutorable. Then you got Sakura Tribe Elder and Grim Monolith. Sakura is recurrable, and Monolith creates a huge mana jump for turn 3 if you see it in your opener.
It looks like we just approach deck building from different angles. You seem to value mana efficiency and mana conservation whereas I look for utility at all points of the game (early-mid-late). I really like your suggestions, and wanna thank you for taking the time to critique my build. It should be cool having you as a resource to bounce new ideas off of, and evaluate upcoming sets as more potential cards for Omnath EDH are released.
That said, right now what I'm thinking is:
-1 Viridian Shaman
-1 Sundering Titan
-1 Primal Command
-1 Sword of Vengeance
-1 Yavimaya Elder
-1 Lignify
-1 Verdant Force
+1 Defense of the Heart
+1 Pellaka Wurm
+1 Summoner's Pact
+1 Gelatinous Genesis
+1 Greater Good
+1 Vedalken Orrery
+1 Ant Queen
Make omnath indestructable? Yes please
And patron is another seedborn muse. It untaps itself and has a nice 7/7 body.
oran-rief the vastwood seems good as well. Especially with woodfall primus to sac to greater good.
And defense of the heart is a thousand times better than tooth and nail. I run defense with stampeding wildabeests and eternal witness to pull the defense right back. Its really stupid. But my omnath deck is more about smashing people than green control.
The way the deck is taking shape, I agree that Oran Rief would be pretty good. It's better with Ant Queen than it was with Verdant Force.
New edits:
-1 Scrying Sheets
-1 Indrik Stomphowler
+1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
+1 Patron of Orochi
Doesn't Sunstone require 2 mana to activate?
The main difference between our decklists I think is that I focus more on a voltron/Omnath is the most important card in the deck whereas you focus on answer to everything, wins will happen as they come but Omnath is not always the end all-be all.
Frankly, I started more on your side of the ballpark but it didn't really make all that much sense to me to have Omnath as the general and then barely even use him. Unless I had mana ramp on turn 3 I would almost always want to play Omnath that turn. While you're worried about who is going to wrath omnath on their turn, I'm more worried about who is going to kill or bounce him at the beginning of the damage step in the combat phase. While I may unfortunately be putting in a bit too much 1v1 ideal by going voltron it still seems like 5 general damage on turn 4 is a nice enough place to start. On top of that now I'm starting to focus on significantly lowering my curve and doing my best to get a t2 Omnath, which sounds even better when you're facing a sweeper table, but obviously more of a 1v1 advantage
In terms of making him survive wraths unfortunately that is more a White/Blue thing but I'm almost tempted to put shield of kaldra in my deck just because it's pretty sweet when you compare it to spearbreaker behemoth whose cost is a little disappointing. I already run a package of Vines of Vastwood, Stonewood Invocation, Avoid Fate, Aspect of Mongoose, Whispersilk Cloak, Lightning Greaves because I'm really not a fan of targetted removal which it seems like you do have some problems with on occasion.
I'm not going to say that you're doing it incorrectly but it does seem that Multani might be a more advantageous general for you to run. I get the liking Mikokoro but you're playing mono green and almost every deck that you are playing against will be happier to receive the cards that you are giving them for free than you will be to draw an extra card each time you pay the mana, this is even more true for a 4+ person table. That's great that you are recuperating from a discard effect but oh hey! you just happened to give your opponent another discard effect for free! I'm sure you value it enough not to change it but the reason that you don't play Mikokoro is the same reason that you don't play Eladamri's Vineyard or Magus of the Vineyard, it's great to give yourself that advantage, but is what you can do with that extra card/2 mana really better than what the other decks can do with it even if it's not their color? Probably not, and in addition to that, unless you're so far behind than everyone else is pitying and not focusing you, mono green doesn't do the best at playing group hug.
I'm honestly still trying to figure out what the best options are for everything but I don't get that much opportunity to play EDH when I want to, but I'll get back to you if I have any more developments.
:symg::symg::symg:Omnath:symg::symg::symg:
:symw::symw::symw:Linvala:symw::symw::symw:
Sunstone- it seems it does require the 2 mana. Constant Mists>Sunstone for sure then. I guess I was just trying a little too hard to get the extra umph out of the snow lands i bought.
I totally get your hating on Mikokoro, Center of the Sea. I really do. To me though, it's still a fetchable source of card draw (i'm not a fan of Citanul Woodreaders or Masked Admirers). I think it's worth playing Mikokoro just to have the option when the only downside is one land slot. I would say that the majority of the time that I'm using it, I have Mind's Eye on the table anyway. I don't just blindly get it every game and activate it every turn. Winding Canyons is always the number one target of a land fetch/tutor. Now that I'm adding Oran-Rief, the Vastwood I think Oran-Rief will be the second, with Dust Bowl coming out as necessary. If i ever do a card by card analysis, I'll make sure to explain that it should only really be used in conjunction with Mind's Eye, or as a last resort (trying to help everyone at the table find an answer to the one guy who is going to win next turn).
It's really interesting that you suggest Multani, Maro-Sorcerer as a general. I played Multani as my general before I created this EDH, and that deck was completely overhauled to create this one. As you've picked up on though, there are still traces of it lingering around, the most evident of which is my love of Mikokoro. Multani was insanely fun to play, and back then the number one land tutor was Hall of the Bandit Lord. Good times. Alas, my group convinced me that I should switch generals (they absolutely HATED him), and I moved on to Omnath. The moment I figured out that I would not be going back to Multani was the first time I used Omnath's mana bank to save himself via a Winding Canyons. That synergy was so amazing, that I was convinced that the tricks that you can pull off with Omnath outweighed the hilarity of Multani KOing someone on turn 5.
We definitely have different play styles. One thing I try to do when creating an EDH deck is make sure it can function without the general. I understand that from your perspective, I've taken it to an extreme, and don't use Omnath enough to justify making him my general. They are just two different chains of logic, and neither is wrong. Either way, I'm glad we can carry out intelligent discussion on the deck and the pros and cons of various chard choices.
Hall of Gemstone is my newest fixation. It's by no means new tech, but I had never realized all of its benefits until reading another Omnath thread. It's clear that it protects you from counter-magic and instant speed removal, but I never thought about how it screws over multicolored decks... Hall of Gemstone makes it extremely difficult to cast any 3 colored general, or any multicolored spell. I am contemplating putting it in, and I think it would be a great addition to your deck, Zinc. It disrupts quickly, and can lock them out of the colors they need to disrupt you. It doesn't matter that your lands would make a different color, because you'd have all the green mana chilling on your Omnath. I don't see it in your decklist either, so let me know what you think.
New cards under consideration: Hall of Gemstone
On top of that, I'm always a bigger fan of building around the general rather than just focusing on the colors and rarely bother doing it unless it actually has a streamlined purpose (though not Zur level streamlined).
I like the hall of Gemstone, it's definitely a major upgrade over the leyline of lifeforce that I have in my deck, though it is a tad bit unfortunate for vedalken orrery and Winding Canyons. That being the only thing bad about it being the same reason that I don't run Dosan the Falling Leaf, it does have sufficient other capabilities to make it worhwhile, including color screwing everyone.
:symg::symg::symg:Omnath:symg::symg::symg:
:symw::symw::symw:Linvala:symw::symw::symw:
It could hinder you from flashing Omnath in during someone else's turn, but if Omnath was already in play, Hall of Gemstone would be a choke on a lot of different players.
Cards in consideration: Yavimaya Elder, Hall of Gemstone
Has anyone tried Gauntlets of Chaos?
Gauntlets of Chaos is kind of mediocre, in my opinion. It's really good if one of your opponents has something incredible on the board, but I feel like anything you would be getting out of it would be counterproductive to the focus of your deck.
still trying to work Hall of Gemstone in even though it's just an untutorable singleton.
When you mention tempo loss, are you referring to the land that you try to sacrifice, or the land that you tutor for after you play Crop Rotation? The land that you sacrifice is part of the cost of playing the spell, so it can't be responded to with a Strip Mine.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani