I've been in the process of acquiring a foil of each planeswalker card and I recently ordered a foil Jace the Mind Sculptor off of eBay for $95, which isn't a mindblowingly cheap deal but it was a very reasonable price for a foil. Anyway, the person I bought it from has over 15,000 feedback with 99.5% of it being positive so I trusted it. I received the card and maybe I'm just being paranoid but I'm a little unsure if its real or not. It just seems a little TOO shiny for a foil. Like it seems like almost too much of it is foil. All the words and everything look perfect and there doesn't seem to be any visible printing mistake on it.
I guess my question is what is a foil Jace supposed to look like? Like which parts of it are supposed to be foil and is there anyway for me to verify? Is a foil Jace TMS just that pretty looking of a foil?
I think the thing thats throwing me off is that even the mana cost in the top right corner is foil and that's not something I typically see. And the card stock feels SLIGHTLY off but I can't tell if thats actually a discrepancy or just my paranoid hands looking for something that's not there.
whatever you do... do NOT do the bend test, that will ruin the card assuming that it is a real card.
I just took a look at the buy a box promo for M11 (birds of paradise alt art foil) and I can confirm that even on the new foils that the mana symbol is not usually going to be foiled out. Thus if the mana symbol is foiled, then that is a good reason to be questioning of the card.
I would however take the card to your local gaming shop, explain your concern to the owner, and ask if he or one of his employee's can confirm whether your Jace is a real card or not. But make sure to specify that they cannot do anything that would damage the card including the bend test.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
It's becoming harder to tell with people putting up fake foils on eBay all the time - they erase the ink from the card, leaving the foil layer intact and then use a high-resolution printer to print out whatever card they want onto it. I just reported a guy selling fake Tarmogoyfs today, in fact.
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"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."
It's becoming harder to tell with people putting up fake foils on eBay all the time - they erase the ink from the card, leaving the foil layer intact and then use a high-resolution printer to print out whatever card they want onto it. I just reported a guy selling fake Tarmogoyfs today, in fact.
I would assume it is harder to fake a Jace, the Mindsculptor than it is a tarmogoyf using that method though... considering the difference in their layout templates.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
I would assume it is harder to fake a Jace, the Mindsculptor than it is a tarmogoyf using that method though... considering the difference in their layout templates.
It's all ink and can be erased with erasers or acetone. While not many people use this for faking it's also used for alters (check the art forum).
I would assume it is harder to fake a Jace, the Mindsculptor than it is a tarmogoyf using that method though... considering the difference in their layout templates.
All you need is a really high-quality scan of the card to print out a new one. We've had threads before warning people of fake Jaces that were only known to be fake because the seller said they were
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"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."
i just took a look at my foil jace that i pulled out of a pack. The foil seems to have a nice bright foil to it when looking at it at certain angles, and from what i can tell there is foiling over the mana symbols.
Post pictures. The fake Foils on ebay are obviously fake because the douche is printing altered art stolen from someone else onto the "slugs." You should know right away if you bought one of these. If this is a really good fake you should be able to look at the side of the card to see if the blue layer is sandwiched between the white layers.
Post pictures. The fake Foils on ebay are obviously fake because the douche is printing altered art stolen from someone else onto the "slugs." You should know right away if you bought one of these. If this is a really good fake you should be able to look at the side of the card to see if the blue layer is sandwiched between the white layers.
Well honestly, if he's printing onto a blanked card it will have the blue layer.
The way to tell is to get a jeweler's loupe and look at the printing compared to one that came from a pack.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Hm... if cards being worth thousand dollars are the new trend, wizards will have to take some steps to make it harder to make fake ones... I didn't know of that "fake foil" market, glad to hear so I can pay a lot ot attention when I buy (specially since I buy pretty much all my cards from e-bay and have them mailed to me here in Brazil)
Well, about the OP question, I happened to open a foil Celestial Colonnade 2 days ago. The mana symbols are somewhat foiled, not as much as the rest, but have some "shine"... but they are into the text box, so maybe it's not the same. I'm not really sure.
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Alea iacta est
I'm a Spike Vorthos - I love lore and flavor, but only if the cards are competition worthy.
I agree. WotC needs to consider adding ways to prevent illegal duplication. I've had a few cards I bought at a card store, and when I put them side by side a few were clearly darker than the others. Made me take a very careful look at the card, I still think they could be dupes. The ink that Wizards uses should be very difficult to replicate, perhaps use inks that are not freely available to the public, similar to how money is printed.
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"The fatal flaw in every plan is the assumption that you know more than your enemy."
The biggest problem with that is special ink is expensive. an increase in security measures like that would end up translating into higher prices on boxes/packs/singles that are already high as it is...
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the user formerly known as isopsycho86
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig Legacy RUBFaithless Dredge
As a collector and player for 17 years here are the things I do. If you want to know how I do these tests just ask as I don't really want to post detailed info(will be eye bleedingly long).
1. Bend test. NEVER do this on foils.
2. Water test. Dangerous if done wrong. Don't use on foils.
3. Light test. My favorite, great for determining. Foils are a more dense.
4. Visual inspection with magnifying glass. Print specifics are unique for mtg cards. Inking can be seen(moisture test can determine this too). Other changes to card are found with this test.
5. I've heard putting the cards in a microwave is safe for real mtg cards(NOT FOILS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) but
i personally do not use this test.
I REPEAT THE BEND TEST, WATER TEST and the MICROWAVE TEST SHOULD NOT BE USED ON FOILS.
Well honestly, if he's printing onto a blanked card it will have the blue layer.
The way to tell is to get a jeweler's loupe and look at the printing compared to one that came from a pack.
I know. There are two types of fakes that I am thinking about.
1. Foil slugs with printing on top. Those will obviously have the blue layer. These rarely look like real cards in person because of the way the printing process lays over the foil. If a big shop produced them, maybe. But, when you are using a printer to print on 2.5"x3.5" cards they have a more homemade look.
2. Really good fakes that are printed from scratch. They are printed by professional printers similar to the way Hasbro prints them, but usually it's on a solid white card stock with foiling sheets added. I haven't seen these with MtG cards, but some people have done this with counterfeit baseball cards.
I agree. WotC needs to consider adding ways to prevent illegal duplication. I've had a few cards I bought at a card store, and when I put them side by side a few were clearly darker than the others.
That may be because they were fake. OR, most print operations are run by 50 year old alcoholic dudes that think Dio and Cameros are awesome. Wizards does really well in terms of quality control, but I drafted to Snakeforms a while back and one looked and felt completely fake.
As a collector and player for 17 years here are the things I do. If you want to know how I do these tests just ask as I don't really want to post detailed info(will be eye bleedingly long).
1. Bend test. NEVER do this on foils.
2. Water test. Dangerous if done wrong.
3. Light test. My favorite, great for determining rebacks.
4. Visual inspection with magnifying glass. Print specifics are unique for mtg cards. Inking can be seen(moisture test can determine this too). Other changes to card are found with this test.
5. I've heard putting the cards in a microwave is safe for real mtg cards(NOT FOILS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) but i personally do not use this test.
I REPEAT THE BEND TEST and the MICROWAVE TEST SHOULD NOT BE USED ON FOILS.
Knowing which type of card you have tells you how to test the potential fakes.
1) The Bend Test is designed to spot rebacks and fake cardstock. Rebacks are usually only an issue with Power these days since they are almost always made out of CE cards. Other detection methods would find the fake front just as easily. I don't usually use this.
2) Water Test is best used to catch poor ink jets and colorings. Magnification finds these too.
3) Light Test checks for rebacks, fake cardstock, and sometimes inks. This is a good test to check on all cards, although foil cards may look differently than regular cards. Always test cards that are from the same set or as close as possible. Some cards that look real printed with photo inks will fail this test too.
4) The magnifier, which is my personal favorite. A 30x mag will catch 90%+ of all printed card fronts. Most of these are low value often standard staples under $10. They are often made for private use but can end up in the market if people trade them off. Sometimes "its a proxy" to one guy and then he trades it as a proxy and then the next guy trades it as the real thing. You're going to inspect your Jace's closely. This technique is most likely going to show up on cards like Fetch Lands printed on other blanked cards. I use the magnifier a lot. You can buy one shipped on eBay for under $10.
5) I've never microwaved a card, but again this is a test for rebacks. If I were going to sell/trade you my power I wouldn't let you microwave it. The light test is normally good enough to spot these.
You can carry a High Power mini flashlight and a Jewelers Loupe in your pocket or bag and it looks really professional but kind of funny when you are trading and whip it out.
People see that at big events and ask me to check cards quite a bit. I normally err on the side of 'real' because if nobody can tell, then it won't stop you from playing with it or trading with it. The one exception is of course buying and selling a card for cash. I woudln't want to sell something I thought had a chance of being fake, but I don't feel bad putting a 'not quite sure' card that passes all the tests in my deck. Sometimes the cardstock can get heavy and print runs can be different. That doesn't mean it's fake.
I know. There are two types of fakes that I am thinking about.
2. Really good fakes that are printed from scratch. They are printed by professional printers similar to the way Hasbro prints them, but usually it's on a solid white card stock with foiling sheets added. I haven't seen these with MtG cards, but some people have done this with counterfeit baseball cards.
I haven't heard of a fake print shop run since around 4th ed and they were printing revised cards. Even then I only read about that online. I've never heard of it with Foils. I had 2 Goyfs that I got at the FS pre-release and one of them was particularly heavy, but I know they came out of a pack, so I wasn't worried about it. That's why I normally err on the side of "real" when cards pass light and mag tests because the best test for bad cardstock is the bend test and that isn't going to fly with foils.
For what I understand WotC is pretty careful about controlling the cardstock. You can't just call up and buy it even if you did have a press.
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
I agree. WotC needs to consider adding ways to prevent illegal duplication. I've had a few cards I bought at a card store, and when I put them side by side a few were clearly darker than the others. Made me take a very careful look at the card, I still think they could be dupes. The ink that Wizards uses should be very difficult to replicate, perhaps use inks that are not freely available to the public, similar to how money is printed.
Slight differences don't necessarily make a card fake since sometimes there are print quality issues within Wizards. For example, I have a bunch of shielding plaxes I pulled from boosters and some of them have slightly thicker (like they used bold) text than the others. I've also noticed some cards that are slightly more faded than others.
Wizards posted an article about spotting fakes a while back. It's pretty old now, and I'm sure counterfeiters have gotten more savvy, but it might be worth a look anyways.
just almost made a purchase, but backed out at the last second. tell me i'm right, and i didn't just throw profit out the window. i used to play a lot, i haven't touched real cards in over 1 year, and haven't touched expensive cards in over 2.
2x jace foil
1x venser, the sojourner foil
3x jace
2x fow
dual lands
mox pearl
First, all the cards looked as if their DPI was lower than what they should be. Again, I haven't played in so long, I don't know what the cards should look like. However, they all seemed a little washed out.The Venser specifically looked VERY washed out, but when I look at the card online, maybe the art itself is like that. FOW are supposed to look vibrant. All of mine look as if the ink is incredibly dark/bleeding. These were very light and the text didn't look "crisp". Is this an age thing?
Second, the foils curved dramatically. They were not quite cylindrical, but they were definitely forming a good elongated oval shape with the table surface.
Third, when i was playing around with the fow, some residue came off my fingers. I scratched the bottom of the card, and "ink" came off. the black border turned white. I could only do this for a bit (1/4 cm), the rest of the border didn't seem to slough off.
I don't know. I just got the sense that at least one or two of the cards were fake (the fow), and thus i started passing on everything else.
The reason why i'm asking is...in none of the instances did the card stock feel strange/double layer, etc. they all "felt" like magic cards, but didn't look like magic cards. I curled them all, and no breakage was apparent in the cards.
My main question...these days, how good are the fakes? How often are fakes encountered?
It really runs the gambit. Ive seen really bad ones and really good ones. If you have access to some of the 1200dpi+ templates floating around and a print shop other then card stock it can be nearly impossible to tell. That said if the ink was flaking off the border of a card Id be really hesitent to call it real. Without seeing pictures that sounds more like the way tonner behaves then ink.
It really runs the gambit. Ive seen really bad ones and really good ones. If you have access to some of the 1200dpi+ templates floating around and a print shop other then card stock it can be nearly impossible to tell. That said if the ink was flaking off the border of a card Id be really hesitent to call it real. Without seeing pictures that sounds more like the way tonner behaves then ink.
This is disturbing, especially for vintage players. I've heard that fakes are being manufactured in Germany on MTG card stock. I can't say this is true, but disturbing non the less, fakes are getting more and more undetectable.
I've been in the process of acquiring a foil of each planeswalker card and I recently ordered a foil Jace the Mind Sculptor off of eBay for $95, which isn't a mindblowingly cheap deal but it was a very reasonable price for a foil. Anyway, the person I bought it from has over 15,000 feedback with 99.5% of it being positive so I trusted it. I received the card and maybe I'm just being paranoid but I'm a little unsure if its real or not. It just seems a little TOO shiny for a foil. Like it seems like almost too much of it is foil. All the words and everything look perfect and there doesn't seem to be any visible printing mistake on it.
I guess my question is what is a foil Jace supposed to look like? Like which parts of it are supposed to be foil and is there anyway for me to verify? Is a foil Jace TMS just that pretty looking of a foil?
I think the thing thats throwing me off is that even the mana cost in the top right corner is foil and that's not something I typically see. And the card stock feels SLIGHTLY off but I can't tell if thats actually a discrepancy or just my paranoid hands looking for something that's not there.
I just took a look at the buy a box promo for M11 (birds of paradise alt art foil) and I can confirm that even on the new foils that the mana symbol is not usually going to be foiled out. Thus if the mana symbol is foiled, then that is a good reason to be questioning of the card.
I would however take the card to your local gaming shop, explain your concern to the owner, and ask if he or one of his employee's can confirm whether your Jace is a real card or not. But make sure to specify that they cannot do anything that would damage the card including the bend test.
I would assume it is harder to fake a Jace, the Mindsculptor than it is a tarmogoyf using that method though... considering the difference in their layout templates.
It's all ink and can be erased with erasers or acetone. While not many people use this for faking it's also used for alters (check the art forum).
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Well honestly, if he's printing onto a blanked card it will have the blue layer.
The way to tell is to get a jeweler's loupe and look at the printing compared to one that came from a pack.
Well, about the OP question, I happened to open a foil Celestial Colonnade 2 days ago. The mana symbols are somewhat foiled, not as much as the rest, but have some "shine"... but they are into the text box, so maybe it's not the same. I'm not really sure.
I'm a Spike Vorthos - I love lore and flavor, but only if the cards are competition worthy.
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig
Legacy
RUBFaithless Dredge
1. Bend test. NEVER do this on foils.
2. Water test. Dangerous if done wrong. Don't use on foils.
3. Light test. My favorite, great for determining. Foils are a more dense.
4. Visual inspection with magnifying glass. Print specifics are unique for mtg cards. Inking can be seen(moisture test can determine this too). Other changes to card are found with this test.
5. I've heard putting the cards in a microwave is safe for real mtg cards(NOT FOILS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) but
i personally do not use this test.
I REPEAT THE BEND TEST, WATER TEST and the MICROWAVE TEST SHOULD NOT BE USED ON FOILS.
I know. There are two types of fakes that I am thinking about.
1. Foil slugs with printing on top. Those will obviously have the blue layer. These rarely look like real cards in person because of the way the printing process lays over the foil. If a big shop produced them, maybe. But, when you are using a printer to print on 2.5"x3.5" cards they have a more homemade look.
2. Really good fakes that are printed from scratch. They are printed by professional printers similar to the way Hasbro prints them, but usually it's on a solid white card stock with foiling sheets added. I haven't seen these with MtG cards, but some people have done this with counterfeit baseball cards.
That may be because they were fake. OR, most print operations are run by 50 year old alcoholic dudes that think Dio and Cameros are awesome. Wizards does really well in terms of quality control, but I drafted to Snakeforms a while back and one looked and felt completely fake.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Knowing which type of card you have tells you how to test the potential fakes.
1) The Bend Test is designed to spot rebacks and fake cardstock. Rebacks are usually only an issue with Power these days since they are almost always made out of CE cards. Other detection methods would find the fake front just as easily. I don't usually use this.
2) Water Test is best used to catch poor ink jets and colorings. Magnification finds these too.
3) Light Test checks for rebacks, fake cardstock, and sometimes inks. This is a good test to check on all cards, although foil cards may look differently than regular cards. Always test cards that are from the same set or as close as possible. Some cards that look real printed with photo inks will fail this test too.
4) The magnifier, which is my personal favorite. A 30x mag will catch 90%+ of all printed card fronts. Most of these are low value often standard staples under $10. They are often made for private use but can end up in the market if people trade them off. Sometimes "its a proxy" to one guy and then he trades it as a proxy and then the next guy trades it as the real thing. You're going to inspect your Jace's closely. This technique is most likely going to show up on cards like Fetch Lands printed on other blanked cards. I use the magnifier a lot. You can buy one shipped on eBay for under $10.
5) I've never microwaved a card, but again this is a test for rebacks. If I were going to sell/trade you my power I wouldn't let you microwave it. The light test is normally good enough to spot these.
You can carry a High Power mini flashlight and a Jewelers Loupe in your pocket or bag and it looks really professional but kind of funny when you are trading and whip it out.
People see that at big events and ask me to check cards quite a bit. I normally err on the side of 'real' because if nobody can tell, then it won't stop you from playing with it or trading with it. The one exception is of course buying and selling a card for cash. I woudln't want to sell something I thought had a chance of being fake, but I don't feel bad putting a 'not quite sure' card that passes all the tests in my deck. Sometimes the cardstock can get heavy and print runs can be different. That doesn't mean it's fake.
I haven't heard of a fake print shop run since around 4th ed and they were printing revised cards. Even then I only read about that online. I've never heard of it with Foils. I had 2 Goyfs that I got at the FS pre-release and one of them was particularly heavy, but I know they came out of a pack, so I wasn't worried about it. That's why I normally err on the side of "real" when cards pass light and mag tests because the best test for bad cardstock is the bend test and that isn't going to fly with foils.
For what I understand WotC is pretty careful about controlling the cardstock. You can't just call up and buy it even if you did have a press.
Slight differences don't necessarily make a card fake since sometimes there are print quality issues within Wizards. For example, I have a bunch of shielding plaxes I pulled from boosters and some of them have slightly thicker (like they used bold) text than the others. I've also noticed some cards that are slightly more faded than others.
Wizards posted an article about spotting fakes a while back. It's pretty old now, and I'm sure counterfeiters have gotten more savvy, but it might be worth a look anyways.
wizards.com/magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature/209
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5585202&postcount=18963
The artist trademark in the altered cards is from CardKitty.
just almost made a purchase, but backed out at the last second. tell me i'm right, and i didn't just throw profit out the window. i used to play a lot, i haven't touched real cards in over 1 year, and haven't touched expensive cards in over 2.
2x jace foil
1x venser, the sojourner foil
3x jace
2x fow
dual lands
mox pearl
First, all the cards looked as if their DPI was lower than what they should be. Again, I haven't played in so long, I don't know what the cards should look like. However, they all seemed a little washed out.The Venser specifically looked VERY washed out, but when I look at the card online, maybe the art itself is like that. FOW are supposed to look vibrant. All of mine look as if the ink is incredibly dark/bleeding. These were very light and the text didn't look "crisp". Is this an age thing?
Second, the foils curved dramatically. They were not quite cylindrical, but they were definitely forming a good elongated oval shape with the table surface.
Third, when i was playing around with the fow, some residue came off my fingers. I scratched the bottom of the card, and "ink" came off. the black border turned white. I could only do this for a bit (1/4 cm), the rest of the border didn't seem to slough off.
I don't know. I just got the sense that at least one or two of the cards were fake (the fow), and thus i started passing on everything else.
The reason why i'm asking is...in none of the instances did the card stock feel strange/double layer, etc. they all "felt" like magic cards, but didn't look like magic cards. I curled them all, and no breakage was apparent in the cards.
My main question...these days, how good are the fakes? How often are fakes encountered?
Currently looking to buy miscut Homelands, (my wife thinks I'm crazy too).
Semper Gumby (Always Flexible)
This is disturbing, especially for vintage players. I've heard that fakes are being manufactured in Germany on MTG card stock. I can't say this is true, but disturbing non the less, fakes are getting more and more undetectable.
My Trade Thread
I collect cards altered by their original artist. PM me for sales.