[MBS] Worlds spoilers: Mirran & Phyrexian Crusader

[Welfare Ninja]

I've been playing a lot of block constructed and infect will really love this 3 mana stud. Right now, there are not a lot of black options at the 3 drop spot aside from Ichor Rats (a must include). Contagious Nim is not that hot and Cystbearer, although great, is green. The new guy fills a hole in my infect deck and I can't wait to grab that bad boy up.

Interested to see the rest of the set and how it helps/hurts infect.....

[clan_iraq]

Dear god man

You cannot compare "this card vs titan" to "this card plus a bad combat trick vs titan". Why not just doom blade the titan instead of combining with a last gasp and having to pass on your attack. Thats like comparing Channel + Fireball to Fireball + 4x Priest of Titania + Staff of Domination



Yeah, this might be superior to vampire nighthawk in a non-infect deck.... if its your only creature, in which case you aren't kill anyone by turning sideways, ever. But the second you start putting in infect or non-infect creatures, you're pegged into one strategy or the other. And I'll tell you which one is historically better and is the only viable one outside of standard (and tbh inside it too so far)

[rustheman]

My indestructible knight deck just got a new member! I like them.

[zeromd]

i really prefer more swords over that cards... maybe in another block for W/R and G/B sword...

[FieryBalrog]

Originally Posted by maestrogrande

A cursory search of DeckCheck.org shows that you are wrong. Ironically, your use of the word "ironically" did not denote any actual irony.

Current.

Originally Posted by maestrogrande

Again, searching deckcheck.org would show that Lightning Bolt is a little less common than Mountain in Legacy. That's probably an exaggeration, but searching for either returns the maximum number of Legacy decklists, three hundred.

Current.

Your oh-so-reliable DeckCheck.org displays a whopping 1 result for Lightning Bolt in the past year (this is not DeckCheck.net, clearly. A site is only as good as its submissions). The site just seems hilariously broken. In fact I'm pretty sure you just entered "Lightning Bolt" in the search field without looking at the time period at all.

Regardless, spamming DeckCheck results is not a substitute for understanding the format. Your "impressions" remain irrelevant.

Originally Posted by maestrogrande

Blahblahblah

Thanks.

[Warrior57]

Originally Posted by VexedShusher

unless unless unless... if if if... Why wouldn't I? Really, why wouldn't I play pump or Mono Black infect? it's not like you can bolt or pte this guy in rsp. and if I'm going to pump, why not strengthen my creature flat out with equips instead of wasting slots for instances of a high p/t infecter. Element of surprise? lol. who cares. the only thing giving this creature a hard time is DoJ and Jace realistically. other options aren't even played competitively. and using either of those to get rid of my one infecter is fine with me.

For decks that don't have answers to it: it's either race out or kill off until i can take my time poisoning. of course I'm oversimplifying it but that seems to be the general case.

the two best removal spells in standard are Lightning Bolt and Doom Blade. guess which has protection from both.

it's a 3 cmc win con that doubles as a wall. Not vice versa. this ends the game a turn slower than BSA without assistance, it can win the game 1-2 turns faster with assistance.

Night hawk is a 10 turn wincon. screw life gain and creature interaction. it's irrelevant when it comes to ending the game. when all threats are cleared or your opp is neutered, Vampire nighthawk is not a relevant at all. Which would make you ☺☺☺☺ yourself more? A t2 Phyrexian Crusader or a t2 Nighthawk?

There's no comparison.

On titans, LOL!

Give that some thought my friend so you can see what you just did thar.

Vampire Nighthawk on Grave Titan - Both dead. 1 creature card lost each. CA for titan user.

Crusader, Grasp on Grave Titan - Titan Dead, removal spell and creature card lost respectively. CA for titan user.

I keep my creature, you just lost your's. Actually, I have no reason to not use Nighthawk as my removal spell in that situation as no matter what, it's still a 1for1 trade. I just maintain my board presence.

...wait, let's switch it up.

Sun titan? I win. you trade.

Inferno? I win. You lose nighthawk and have to deal with the consequences of thinking it's better than Crusader.

Frost? knocks both of ours out.

Primeval? I win. You trade and take the trample dmg.

how is Grasp on Crusader not flat out better? Best decision made short of doom blade 5-8.

TL;DR: Not sure why there this much denial coming from anyone.

You are completely ignoring the fact that the crusaders doesn´t work together with non-infect creatures. Yes theoretically he needs 5 attacks instead of 10 - but you are pretending he´s the only creature you ever play.

Each kind of damage you deal reduces the number of attacks the non-infect creature (in this case the Nighthawk) needs to win. Unless you play a heavy infect focused deck the Crusader simply can´t build on that.

Not to mention that lifegain & dealing damage in one package is a much better deal than playing a wall, which just sits around until you managed to stabilize the game by other means (and then stills needs 5 successfull attacks to win). In addition, as a 3 mana creature Nighthawk is capable of trading with the most powerful creatures in the format on its own, or sometimes even convincing your opponent to skip an attack, - there shouldn´t be arguing which is the better card.

Your opinion on the titans really gave me the impression you aren´t a very experienced player (sorry if I am wrong about that). If you need an additional card to handle them (You´re aware that you will meet them in every tournament.) something went wrong while building your deck.

Fact is: Neither of them will see play in non-aggro strategies. Buf if, then the Nighthawk is much more likable to be played. Unless you focus the deck around him Phyrexian Crusader is a junk rare.

[RDSGD4]

Deck
Creatures 4 Knight Exemplar 4 Kemba's Skyguard 4 Student of Warfare 4 Mirran Crusader 2 Kabira Vindicator 4 White Knight Spells 4 Honor of the Pure 2 Marshal's Anthem 2 Brave the Elements 3 Ajani Goldmane 3 Journey to Nowhere	Lands 20 Plains 4 Sejiri Steppe	SB 1 Journey to Nowhere 4 Condemn 4 Kor Sanctifiers 4 Tectonic Edge 2 Brave the Elements

This is begging to be built for standard now. With a few tweaks, and maybe a knight that is better than Kabira Vindicator /fingerscrossed, this could be a decent WW build. I know I'm going to try it.

[freeza59650]

Originally Posted by Warrior57

You are completely ignoring the fact that the crusaders doesn´t work together with non-infect creatures. Yes theoretically he needs 5 attacks instead of 10 - but you are pretending he´s the only creature you ever play.

Each kind of damage you deal reduces the number of attacks the non-infect creature (in this case the Nighthawk) needs to win. Unless you play a heavy infect focused deck the Crusader simply can´t build on that.

Not to mention that lifegain & dealing damage in one package is a much better deal than playing a wall, which just sits around until you managed to stabilize the game by other means (and then stills needs 5 successfull attacks to win). In addition, as a 3 mana creature Nighthawk is capable of trading with the most powerful creatures in the format on its own, or sometimes even convincing your opponent to skip an attack, - there shouldn´t be arguing which is the better card.

Your opinion on the titans really gave me the impression you aren´t a very experienced player (sorry if I am wrong about that). If you need an additional card to handle them (You´re aware that you will meet them in every tournament.) something went wrong while building your deck.

Fact is: Neither of them will see play in non-aggro strategies. Buf if, then the Nighthawk is much more likable to be played. Unless you focus the deck around him Phyrexian Crusader is a junk rare.

Phyrexian Crusader is interesting because he has protection against lightning bolt and path to exile or swords to plowshares and can't be target by doom blade. Phyrexian crusader with a jitte or a sword is completly different...

Vampire Nighthawk is I think better when he stays on the battlefield on his own. But even in a non infect deck, the crusader can find a place.

[Pizzabagel]

this is good news for exemplar---maybe now we'll get a nice 2-drop to take white-knight's slot.

[thenightmare]

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

although my thought was that these arts would have been used for lords for the factions but champions are still a nice use.

[Ratinyourwalls]

The power isn't even bothering to creep anymore it's just blatantly flat out running.

[Demagogue]

Originally Posted by NovemberMike

I think he's trying to say that infect is basically wither + bad in a non-infect deck, which is true.

That's part of it, but it has to do with mechanics as a whole. Let's give a quick mechanic break down:

Great Mechanics:

Cycling; this is the holy grail of mechanics. Not only can you play it in any deck, without caring about whether or not you have other cycling cards, but it's a powerful mechanic that isn't absurdly power or forces drastic cost increases. Eternal Dragon was reasonably costed at his time, even if he didn't have Cycling, but Cycling also didn't make him broken, it just made him a bit better.

More so, you can build around Cycling if you wanted to as it's not only a decent mechanic but can be used as an engine for decks like Crypt or Open the Vaults where you're using Cycling as a main theme to power cards that aren't directly created to make Cycling better (as in Slide). So in short it adds a lot to the game without taking anything away.

Dredge: It's a bit more restrictive than Cycling because of how much stronger it can be, but it still interacts with mechanics like Flashback, can be built around, or simply used as a stand alone card. You also don't need to use it in a Dredge deck, because as long as it's reasonably costed it adds to the card and there are cards you'd play regardless if they had Dredge.

I could play Modlervine Cloak and Call of the Herd in so many different decks without having to depend on one card or the other, but both cards made each other better.

====================

Good Mechanics:

Flash Back: Good mechanic that goes into any deck, but stands above the other good mechanics simply because of how it can be costed in order for it to interact with other mechanics and deck types. In short things like Therapy and Dread Return makes it a bit better than other Good mechanics. It's also nice with Looter abilities.

Scry/Wither/Kicker/etc: Strong mechanics that go on any card really (Wither is the tricky one but in theory it can go on an enchantment/artifact if needed) and don't force your deck in one direction or the other. However, unlike the great mechanics you can't really figure out innovative ways to abuse them and combo them out unless there are cards printed to specifically support them (example; Rumbling Aftershocks).

=======================

Ok-ish Mechanics:

Metal Craft/Landfall/etc: People will argue this but in all honesty while these mechanics are restrictive you can still play them without too much worry. Almost all decks play Lands so Landfall isn't too terribly restrictive and can do various things, but it does promote a certain kind of deck and requires things like Fetches to be printed.

Metalcraft is worse than Landfall but all of the cards are still playable on their own and you have room for things like Galvanic Blast which is an ok spell that sometimes does something more. As in, it's Shock plus something, instead of "these cards can't be played unless you're supporting heavy artifacts".

Affinity: It's borderline bad because it requires you to play heavy artifacts or your spells are overcosted usually, however it doesn't always force you into artifacts as some spells aren't "useless" if you're not in artifacts... Frogmite is still a Grey Ogre in reality as Shadowmourne shows us that 1 coloured symbol equals roughly 2 colourless, so 4 for a 2/2 is kind of like 2R for a 2/2.

However, this is where we see a problem showing up, the mechanic is starting to be so specific that it will almost always either be overpowered or underpowerd. Remember now, a good or bad mechanic is different than a strong or week mechanic in terms of play. Being bad "for" Standard isn't the same as being bad "in" Standard. Clearly with Affinity we saw such a strong push in the form of Artifact lands that the mechanic was busted in half, but when you removed artifact lands it became "ok" at best.

=====================

Bad Mechanics:

Infect: This mechanic is the very definition of being restrictive and is in fact a good mechanic subsidising a bad mechanic, that was made worse.

It forces you to play Infect, without really allowing you to play the cards easily as stand alone. Sure you can use Phyrexian Crusader as a blocker in UB but that's because of the card itself and Infect only serves to make it worse where Wither would make it better.

The mechanic forces other mechanics and cards to be printed in the set that almost specifically support it. Proliferate isn't a very strong mechanic and is mostly around because of Infect, however, even then people don't like using it for Infect but rather for other cards that use counters (Walkers, Ascensions, Etc).

And finally we will either see Infect never being good enough, or being too good (as in the case of Affinity), in the future simply because of how much support it requires to make it playable in the first place.

So in short, it adds nothing to the game, restricts how you build decks greatly, doesn't interact with any other mechanic aside from ones created to specifically support it, and can be replaced by other mechanics in the long run. If anything the mechanic is used to make cards weaker, as in the case of Phyrexian Crusader who would be so much stronger if he only had the Wither part, to the extent that he could be a little too strong almost, but instead he has Infect and turns into a sub-par card.

[rancorcrankor]

Originally Posted by clan_iraq

Heres an example of completely unbalanced Mirran vs Phyrexian. They might be equal for power as draft bombs and in standard for now...

I'll stop you right there.

First off, I think you are right about these both being bombs in limited. But I seriously doubt they will see any constructed play.

Now that we know the set is called New Phyrexia. It would be nice if WoTC gave us some non-filler spoilers for Besieged.

[Warrior57]

Originally Posted by freeza59650

Phyrexian Crusader is interesting because he has protection against lightning bolt and path to exile or swords to plowshares and can't be target by doom blade. Phyrexian crusader with a jitte or a sword is completly different...

Vampire Nighthawk is I think better when he stays on the battlefield on his own. But even in a non infect deck, the crusader can find a place.

I can´t see how. Yes its combination of pro: abilites is amazing, paired with first strike is great - but infect turns the card useless. The moment you don´t play an infect deck the crusader is a decent wall, nothing more because that awful mechanic plays only with itself.

[clan_iraq]

The white knight will see constructed play if student of warfare is starting to see play and will continue to- it may be no staple, but it should find a home. I am aware we are spoiled for white creatures which is why many good cards simply don't see play, but 3 CMC is far more crowded in legacy than standard- any white aggro or weenie deck would be happy to toss down such a bomb, even if WW quest might not want it- theres still aggro

The black knight obviously hinges entirely on infect. Hes such a bomb that if infect is played, he is played, if infect is not played, he is not played, that simple. And infect is currently not played but theres a very small card pool, mind. I'd say its doubtful. But having both out? That would be disturbing considering their powers.

Great Mechanics:

...

Dredge: It's a bit more restrictive than Cycling because of how much stronger it can be, but it still interacts with mechanics like Flashback, can be built around, or simply used as a stand alone card. You also don't need to use it in a Dredge deck, because as long as it's reasonably costed it adds to the card and there are cards you'd play regardless if they had Dredge.

I could play Modlervine Cloak and Call of the Herd in so many different decks without having to depend on one card or the other, but both cards made each other better.

I think dredge is a good mechanic but it doesn't deserve to be up there as a great timeless deal. Its an example of a well done single block flavor, but its not evergreen quality like cycling. Because even when its bizarrely fun, wildly interactive and adds a huge element of depth and deck building and overall plays well- its still a very linear mechanic. Dredge wants more dredge, dredge wants you to build your deck around it instead of with it. Its nowhere near as severe as the godawful poison mechanic which requires 100% build around for any card related to it and offers absolutely positive in return- its just a heavy lean towards "dredge wants a dredge deck" even if the mechanic itself is incredibly cool. Cycling on the other hand can appear as a 1-of in any deck w/o problems, yet is elegant and wildly exploitable and quite well regarded.


I feel if landfall was taken outside of fetches and balanced for it it could have been a much better mechanic- like you say it becomes dependent on certain builds because of that. It was great design in that it solved its intended problem (dead land topdecks), but it wasn't quite elegant and isn't anywhere near exploitable or engine-able.



I don't think infect is inherently bad. I think poison is not just incredibly bad, but provably useless and insanely awful as a game mechanic. But infect cannibalized wither, and wither was a good mechanic- as you said. Infect simply took a good mechanic and attached a turd to it. Its now a slightly less than good mechanic, but thats cheating since the only change was making it worse.


All this of course because Maro refuses to except a simple aspect of game design that I could explain to a 70 year old grandma who has never played any game in her life but cribbage in a single sitting with my hands tied behind my back. Because a certain someone couldn't grasp how "poison sucks, its just second life total" and had to insist so hard that he could fix it (and didn't)