Most of the Tibor and Lumia decks in the database are just chaos/copy/steal decks. That's all well and good, but a little narrow for my tastes. So I've decided to make my mark here on the MTGS database with Tibor and Lumia, a deck which is definitely not a chaos/griefer deck.
Izzet colors without Niv and Jhoira cutthroat reputation (which they rightly deserve). THIS is the Izzet Commander deck I've been waiting for. I think.
You'll notice a lot of cute synergy here but nothing ridiculous. No infinite combos, although I realize I'm only a Turnabout or a Mind over Matter away from them.
Let me go over the highlights.
First, the main strategy. Obviously there are some powerful enough cards in the deck that the general is not required in order to lay down the beats, but it's sort of the point (this is Commander, after all). Get deathtouch on Tibor and Lumia with Basilisk Collar or Quietus Spike, or just Sword of Kaldra. I did have Gorgon Flail in here in testing but I found it a little redundant. If I had one deathtouch equip, I really didn't want to see the other two. Anyway, they can be tutored up with Godo, Gamble, Fabricate, Tezzeret and Trinket Mage. Then wipe the board of ground-pounders with one of the 8 other :symu::symr: spells or give them flying first with a blue spell, Wonder in the yard or Power Matrix, then cast a red spell. Oh, or give 'em Sword of Fire and Ice and they'll be pro-red. Or give a good old Darksteel Plate. Yes, this is kind of complicated, but it has to be more satisfying than slapping Curiosity on Niv-Mizzet. I like the inherent Izzet flavor in haphazardly assembling a rickety death-ray
Obviously, this elaborate, interpretive song-and-dance does nothing against fliers. The plan then is to steal or counter the fliers I find threatening with stuff like Treachery and Draining Whelk.
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind + half the deck: In a pinch or a fit of boredom, it's pretty easy to switch generals even. Basilisk Collar is even better on Niv-Mizzet when you need to kill fliers. The Izzet Lord is a perfect fit here.
Charisma + Tibor and Lumia: Follow it up with a red spell to steal every grounded dude on the table. I picture Gerrard in the pic saying "LOOK AT MY BICEPS" Just be careful with Lightning Greaves here. If you don't have another equip target, this aura will be trapped in your hand. If you don't have the speed boots, be careful you don't get hit with a doom blade EOT.
Future Sight + Sensei's Divining Top: This is more about Future Sight, actually. Never mind that this is ":1mana:: Draw a card." I just want to say, if your deck can reliably generate :symu::symu::symu:, make sure you are playing this card. The advantage it provides is disgustingly powerful. Check out the SCD I started on it to clear the air on the issue.
:symu::symr: spells: These are cool because they trigger both of Tibor and Lumia's abilities. If they have deathtouch as well, that's no joke. As such, cards like Prophetic Bolt and Invoke the Firemind are prioritized over nominally more powerful spells. I think that's the right move, but playing more games will help me figure that out.
Academy Ruins + all my artifacts: There's certainly enough to recur here. Cards like SoFI, Basilisk Collar and blowed-up manafacts will be important targets. Duplicant is probably the most abusive. I used to have Arcbound Reclaimer in here, but he just wasn't pulling his weight for me as much as I wanted. Could be convinced to take him back if the right cut were recommended.
Some cards that didn't make the cut:
Levitation: Lost out to Power Matrix. The big difference is twofold. 1) Power Matrix is tutorable and recurrable with several cards. Levitation isn't. 2) Since the M11 rule changes, Trample and Deathtouch have the most ridiculous interaction. You only have to assign 1 damage to each blocker to have it count as lethal damage, so damage going through to the player is pretty much inevitable unless they've got Sacred Mesa or Pentavus or something. Gives a powerful reason to search up Quietus Spike instead of Basilisk Collar, if you can believe that.
Mystic Decree/Gravity Sphere: As much as I hate to admit it, these cards are somewhere between "win more" and flat-out detrimental to the deck. Firstly, while it's nice to be able to hit flyers with T+L, these cards do nothing to get them online with deathtouch or whatver. Most of the time I would draw one, I'd wish it was a Trinket Mage. Secondly, they both conflict with Wonder, as only the latest effect applies to the battlefield. If Wonder is in the yard, these two cards are practically dead in my hand. And finally, Blue and Red beaters' evasion is almost always flying. Taking this away would make closing out the game or even damaging other players pretty difficult. So thanks, but no thanks.
Predator, Flagship: This is out for testing other cards at the moment. I like the effects but it's such a mana hog I'm not usually happy to draw it.
Nucklavee: I felt he was overkill with Izzet Chronarch already in there. Also a casualty of trying to reduce overall CMC.
Mind's Eye, Mystic Remora: Again, very powerful cards, but redundant with Rhystic Study and Future Sight.
Loxodon Warhammer, Gorgon Flail: Already have enough equips. These, while good (especially the warhammer, that cut hurt), I rarely tutor for either one and often the warhammer just sits in my hand waiting for six mana when I would rather trigger Tibor and Lumia.
I probably missed more than a few. When you ask me why they aren't in there, I'm sure I'll think of something
Well, hope you enjoyed the tour. Like any Izzet project, there's a chance this deck is trying to do too much without doing enough of any one thing right, but at least it'll be a different game every time. I find the deck very fun to play, and that's sort of the point of Commander you ask me. I'll update periodically with cuts, suggested implementations, etc. If you like what you see, I encourage you to test it out and make your own changes. Maybe the best part about this deck is that I built it myself.
Feel free to make suggestions (don't forget to tell me what to cut). Thanks for reading!
1/23
Mystic Remora-->Mulldrifter
Boseiju, Who Shelters All-->Reliquary Tower
2/8
Whim of Volrath-->Darksteel Plate
Shattering Pulse-->Into the Core
Sphinx of Magosi-->Consecrated Sphinx
Memory Crystal-->Island
Arcbound Reclaimer-->Sword of Kaldra
2/19
Mizzium Transreliquat-->Wheel of Fortune
Mikokoro, Center of the Sea-->Riptide Laboratory
Spin into Myth-->Venser, Shaper Savant
So I'm thinking Dominus of Fealty's :symur::symur::symur::symur::symur: cost doesn't work very well with my acceleration and manabase. Often enough I can't cast it till I have seven or eight mana to work with. It's just annoying to see it in the same hand as colorless mana acceleration like Thran Dynamo or Sol Ring because I can't use any of that colorless mana to cast it. It's still a house though if no one removes it and it is still a :symu::symr: spell that triggers T+L. Should I cut the Dominus or remove some colorless mana from the mana base like Boseiju and Tectonic Edge?
I'm also still looking for a way to get Mystic Remora involved.
Firstly I'd like to Dispel some of your missconceptions listed in your "some cards that didn't make the cut section"... having Future Sight and Rhystic Study in your deck does NOT make Mind's Eye redundant for 2 reasons. 1 Sometimes you don't draw one of two 1-ofs in your 99 card library, so adding Mind's Eye makes the maths 1/33 rather than 1/50. 2 Even if you have Mind's Eye and Future sight in play the Mind's Eye still nets you a card for every card your opponents are drawing. So in a textbook 4 player game, Mind's Eye will net you 3 cards minimum per turn. The function of Future Sight is to give you card advantage off the top. That advantage is made redundant approximately 20% (cannot be bothered to actually do the maths) of the time when you hit 2 lands in a row. After turn 6 or so Rhystic Study tends not to do anything, and it's the worst topdeck in the world. Topdecking either Future Sight or Minds Eye is good because it's GUARANTEED card advantage.
Irrespective of whether you think All is Dust is better than Nevinyrral's Disk or Oblivion Stone, they both deserve slots in the deck. For one, they are more catch all answers to difficult board positions, and therefore you have a sinificantly higher chance of drawing one. EDH is about different things for different people. However, people generally want to be doing something broken or playing big spells and dudes. Therefore you allways need MOAR answers. I'll get back to you on card suggestions and cuts...
I look forward to your suggestions (seriously). I know that Mind's Eye, Disk and O-stone are great cards- I didn't mean to put them down. I just have a hard time making cuts. I'm still relatively excited by like every good card I see. You have a good point about Rhystic Study being a crappy topdeck- but I LOVE seeing it in my opening hand so I will have a hard time parting with it (guess Mulldrifter is better at its job?).
Although I gotta say the new Sphinx that got spoiled is going to replace Mind's Eye in a whole lot of decks! WOW what a house!
I've been working on a Tibor and Lumia deck as well recently (dismantled my Reaper King deck because my play group hated it so much; infinite turns and destroying everyone's permanents is pro amirite?) so I have some cool cards I'd like to throw out there for you:
My all time favorite edh card is Planar Portal. Being able to tutor, for anything, in response to people's plays is always awesome. Best part is you don't reveal the card either! Can you say counter fetching?
Mizzium Transreliquat is truly amazing. In a format like edh, being able to have duplicates of some artifacts, Mirari for example, can lead to interesting situations.
There is a blue card that I also completely love and it should always be in a blue deck: Mind Over Matter. I get the vibe that you don't like infinite combos, so I wont feel bad if you don't like this but here is a couple funny things this card enables:
Arcanis the Omnipotent : You draw your deck. Include any card that lets you shuffle your graveyard back into your library and you just win, which isn't a bad thing sometimes. I don't consider this play to be too broken because being UR you don't have many ways to fetch specific creatures and enchantments, so if it goes off then power to you!
Goblin Welder + Solemn Simulacrum + any other artifact (in yard or play, depending on where solemn is): This doesn't net you a bunch of cards because you need to keep discarding, but it DOES let you essentially search for good cards while dumping some of your basic lands into play tapped. This can also be pretty broken if you're doing this with a mana tapper as your artifact you're cycling with.
Just to be silly, I included these cards in my deck: Stitch in Time or Goblin Flectomancer. I like these two at first sight when I was prowling for cards, what's your take?
Thanks for an insightful first post! Welcome to the community.
I'll touch on Mizzium Transreliquat first- I would love to play this. I have one specifically for EDH. The flavor on it is awesome and 3 mana to have copy any artifact on the board. I just don't know what to cut! I don't really want to touch the manabase because it's actually been pretty good for me. The other poster here has already indicted Rhystic Study and it possible I could get rid of that. After all, the Transreliquat could very well be a Mind's Eye
Planar Portal is fantastic too. I played it in some earlier decks and I was never sad to draw it. I just think it's got a hard time competing for space here. You could say Mimic Vat is "my" Planar Portal in that it will go in pretty much every deck I play.
As for Mind over Matter... well, I get the feeling when I drop that, the table will want to kill me in the next two turns and I'm not sure I want that type of aggression unless I'm going infinite. If I need to make the deck more competitive in the future, I'd certainly consider it. And thanks for pointing me to Goblin Welder- he'd be very useful as artifact recursion. He could potentially beat out Arcbound Reclaimer. He's slower initially but much being able to switch out the artifacts at instant speed is pretty sick.
And finally, I do love Goblin Flectomancer! But with Tibor and Lumia pounding the ground all the time, he's a liability more than anything else. I don't want to be afraid to play him because I'm ready to earthquake with my general. But as a :symu::symr: spell he would certainly get a little more priority than the Reverberates and Twincasts of the world.
Coincidentally, I'd love to be able to add Twincast and Wild Ricochet here. I just wouldn't know what to cut.
Thanks for the thoughtful suggestions. I'm pretty sure I'll find a way to get the Mizzium Transreliquat in but it'll probably take some thought.
I've always loved the Izzet League flavor. Glad to see someone building UR without it being Niv combo or Chaos.
Kudos on a well thought out and executed deck. It looks like fun.
With Hinder and Spin into myth in the deck, aren't you tempted to Tunnel Vision? Or just want to stay away from the easy combo?
Your commendation makes my day! Thanks man!
It seems like I should have included a lot more in my "this is what I didn't play" section. I have two copies of Tunnel Vision- but yes, I do want to stay away from the easy combo. I'm actively working with some of the more casual players at the LGS on getting them into EDH and that is exactly the kind of play I wouldn't want to do to them (or have done to me).
I guess that's my philosophy on Mind over Matter/Temple Bell and friends. I'd be pretty bummed if I got one-shotted by a two-card combo, so why inflict it on anyone else?
Then again, if it turns out that the competition gets a little more cutthroat, well, that's why I have two copies of Tunnel Vision
Just taking a look some more (bored at work on lunch lol) I'd probably do these swaps if it was me:
Basilisk Collar or Quietus Spike for Sword of Kaldra: I like this more because you can rfg the creatures you hit. My play group plays with a lot of Eternal Witness recursion so being able to simply get rid of her right away is good.
A card I forgot to mention last night was Recurring Insight. I've had a lot of success with this card in my leaque so I figured it was worth a mention.
There are some cards I am meh on when I look at them in your list, I feel like they aren't required:
Power Matrix: You have a lot of cards already to fetch/protect tibor and lumia. Based off the decklist, I don't think you attack too often so why not replace this with something else?
Vesuva: I guess I didn't notice, but what lands do you really want to hit with this?
If you really want Wild Ricochet in here, I would replace Swerve with it. They basically do the same thing, only for 2 colorless you get to copy as well.
You have some good suggestions. I appreciate the feedback very much.
Basilisk Collar is a must because it's a frequent Trinket Mage target and deathtouch is how I keep control of the board. Sword of Kaldra is pretty hot though. The +5/+5 is no joke when most of my creatures are flyers. I am tempted to give it a go over the spike as soon as I can find one. This is definitely a "go big or go home" format and I would be happy to upgrade in kind.
The signet is good for me. It makes my opening hands much more keepable. Dreamstone Hedron is quite good though. If I wasn't playing color-intense spells like Dominus of Fealty and Future Sight, I would be more inclined to use it. Consider it on my watch list.
Power Matrix is there just to grant flying to my general. That's pretty much it. I like it so far. It's a bit inefficient for my purposes at as you've said, but if I cut it I would have to replace it with something better that protects my general, which I'm hard-pressed to find. I have already used it politically as well so a third player could swing at a second player's Planeswalker. I'm never sad to draw any of my "give my general protection from himself" cards because they're all powerful enough for other reasons. I've thought of Akroma's Memorial at for the same function but there just isn't enough creatures in the deck to take advantage of it and it'll probably get volition reins'd anyway
Recurring Insight is awesome. I give it serious consideration whenever I make a blue deck. Unfortunately, I gave the nod to Invoke the Firemind because of its :symu::symr: colors. It's less powerful but the utility of it helps out the deck.
Aaaaaand I have no idea what to expect with vesuva, really. I just figured it would be a reflecting pool or an academy ruins or something. I think it's useful enough that I wouldn't want to cut it. There isn't a critical mass of CIPT lands here so it's not hurting me too much (yet). I'll consider it expendable though, so thanks.
Don't get rid of Vesuva...... It also kills opposing legendary lands that really NEED to die!
Volrath's Stronghold
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Kor Haven
Minamo
Boseiju
Don't get rid of Vesuva...... It also kills opposing legendary lands that really NEED to die!
Volrath's Stronghold
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Kor Haven
Minamo
Boseiju
He already runs Strip mine and Tectonic edge for that. That's why I considered it a tossable, though it's an amazing card if you can abuse it.
LOL at Gather Specimens- another blue card I give consideration every time I make a blue deck (except this one- I did kinda forget). I could see myself cutting Dominus of Fealty for that. I still want some more time to test the Dominus as a good :symu::symr: spell but if I don't like it, Gather Specimens is a hilarious replacement that is, ironically, easier to cast even with a higher CMC because I can use colorless mana to do so.
Venser is indeed a fabulous Mimic Vat/Crystal Shard target. The most similar card is Glen Elendra Archmage, who's better at what she does but is definitely more narrow (and more costly) than Venser. If I need more disruption, I'll definitely add him before adding any instant counterspells.
LOL at Gather Specimens- another blue card I give consideration every time I make a blue deck (except this one- I did kinda forget). I could see myself cutting Dominus of Fealty for that. I still want some more time to test the Dominus as a good :symu::symr: spell but if I don't like it, Gather Specimens is a hilarious replacement that is, ironically, easier to cast even with a higher CMC because I can use colorless mana to do so.
Venser is indeed a fabulous Mimic Vat/Crystal Shard target. The most similar card is Glen Elendra Archmage, who's better at what she does but is definitely more narrow (and more costly) than Venser. If I need more disruption, I'll definitely add him before adding any instant counterspells.
True about Glen Elendra Archmage + Mimic Vat, but sometimes I feel like it's just too much control if you know what I mean. With Venser, it's softer because at least people don't lose the spell; they don't "cry" as much about it being stopped.
My deck is also still in the testing stage so I still have Dominus of Fealty in mine, but I know what you mean about it. I've had times when he just sits in my hand because I can't afford to spend the colored mana on him and leave myself vulnerable. Considering my Tibor and Lumia is usually the go-to controller of stupid stuff, I hate being that open.
Another card that I've had interesting success with is Stuffy Doll, the only problem is it really cause's player hate when I cast it. However, sometimes our Teneb player casts Exsanguinate with an X of 15 in a 6 player game. In those cases I feel he deserves a Stuffy Doll to the face.
If there was a guy in my playgroup playing Exsanguinate for 15, he can eat counterspells all day No one around here is whining about counterspells like in some other playgroups so I'm gonna stick with the Archmage for now. Can definitely see your point though. Venser lets them have their stuff back at least.
Stuffy Doll is pretty interesting. With all the ways I have to give him flying he could be a hilarious blocker. He does do double duty on the ground with T+L unfortuately, whose main goal is to clear the ground of the guys stuffy doll likes to block. And he's useless against tramplers too. I find too many resources dedicated to one thing (stopping ground pounders in this case) gives me less answers to other problems. I have never had the opportunity to trade for one but he's definitely on my lookout list. At 5 CMC he's got a tough spot to compete for. For instance, Archmage with counter ability backup.
I'm definitely going to get a Sword of Kaldra subbed in for Quietus Spike and see how that goes.
Edit: Official changes!
Out: Mulldrifter
In: Mystic Remora
*I'm really not sure about this one. This is just a test to see how much I like Mystic Remora, really. I evoke mulldrifter 95% of the time so he really only combos with Mimic Vat in the deck. Mystic Remora is practically guaranteed to draw me more cards for less mana. So we'll see.
Out: Tectonic Edge
In: Mizzium Transreliquat
*Hoping 37 lands is enough with the artifact accel here. Not to mention the Mizzium Transreliquat is likely to become artifact mana half the time anyway. Tec edge is the most redundant land what with Strip Mine and Vesuva there to kill legendary lands already (both tutorable). I never really like removing mana for mana-intensive spells but Mizzium can have its cost spread out over 2 or more turns, which somewhat mitigates the problem.
Did you consider Scythe of the Wretched It would be nice after you kill all the creatures to gain control of them all. Seems fun.
Would that work for all the creatures? The rulings on it don't point anything about that but considering that scythe has to go to the creature that this works on and potentially all the creatures leave at once, assuming you're using deathtouch somehow, wouldn't you only get a single creature?
Out: Mulldrifter
In: Mystic Remora
*I'm really not sure about this one. This is just a test to see how much I like Mystic Remora, really. I evoke mulldrifter 95% of the time so he really only combos with Mimic Vat in the deck. Mystic Remora is practically guaranteed to draw me more cards for less mana. So we'll see.
Out: Tectonic Edge
In: Mizzium Transreliquat
*Hoping 37 lands is enough with the artifact accel here. Not to mention the Mizzium Transreliquat is likely to become artifact mana half the time anyway. Tec edge is the most redundant land what with Strip Mine and Vesuva there to kill legendary lands already (both tutorable). I never really like removing mana for mana-intensive spells but Mizzium can have its cost spread out over 2 or more turns, which somewhat mitigates the problem.
Personally, I am not a fan of Mystic Remora. I feel that it draws more "hate" than Mulldrifter. "Hate" refers to the fact that the people in the game would be more opposed to targeting you with their beats. Maybe it's just my play group, but basically this card would do me more harm than good, depending on when you play it.
And your land sub for Mizzium is fine if you ask me. I felt that the amount of land destruction you had was enough as it is, so I approve.
Would that work for all the creatures? The rulings on it don't point anything about that but considering that scythe has to go to the creature that this works on and potentially all the creatures leave at once, assuming you're using deathtouch somehow, wouldn't you only get a single creature?
The Scythe will trigger multiple times - once for each creature that was dealt damage by its equipped creature. The Scythe will be attached to the last creature you return to the battlefield.
Scythe of the Wretched does in fact work. Just to throw my hat in there. But using it effectively involves several things that are hard to set up all together:
1) Attach a deathtouch equip on the general (there are two in the deck) or Whim of Volrath+Memory Stone
2) Attach Scythe to the general. This is not cheap.
3) Play a red spell.
All while not drawing enough hate to have the general killed.
This does work and can be a hilarious surprise but I see it as a "win more" situation. If I am wiping out all non-flyers, do I really need control of all of them? Insurrection gets them all temporarily as just one card. It's a great recommendation but I feel that it's just to difficult to rely on. In contrast, Sword of Kaldra RFG's everything without flying AND gives the general +5/+5 as only one card. So that's the sort of thing the scythe has to compete with.
On Mulldrifter vs Mystic Remora- I am already uncomfortable with having made the change (what's a blue deck doing not playing Mulldrifter!) but I'm stuck without it tonight. I will change it back if Remora "draws" too much hate
That might not be enough targets for him, Mimic Vat sort of fills the same role as him, and I can see how the RRR in his cost might be a problem, but I recommend giving him a test run at least.
Also, have you considered Mirror Sheen? I've always thought it would be fun to play in a UR deck.
You are right about Mimic Vat. It's costed much better than Kiki-Jiki (that :symr::symr::symr: is not reasonable to expect by T5 as you mentioned) and it can also copy legendary guys. It's also tutorable with my artifact tutors. I don't really have room for both, unfortunately.
I already put Mulldrifter back in. That was a mistake :(. Mystic Remora is just gonna have to sit this one out.
Mirror Sheen works best with time walk effects (or targeted card draw like Stroke of Genius). Since this deck doesn't run any, I'll just hang on to Reiterate and call it a day. I would like to play with it sometime but it just has a very hard time competing for space with all the other useful cards.
Tibor and Lumia is definitely an underused commander and I feel like it adds to their charm. I can safely say my deck isn't there to screw up the table like your garden-variety chaos deck and I have a great time playing it myself. If you try them, let me know how it works for you man. Sure beats slapping Curiosity on Niv or suspending Obliterate with Jhoria
EDIT: In addition to the Mystic Remora/Mulldrifter swap-back, I changed out Boseiju for Reliquary Tower. What's the point of having abusive card advantage (top/future sight, mulldrifter/mimic vat) if I can't abuse it past seven cards? I also got annoyed at how often I found myself tapping Boseiju for mana. I don't mind losing two life to Steam Vents, but I lost something like 14 life the other day on Boseiju alone and when I went to Expedition Map for a Tower to enjoy my new 9-card hand, I didn't have one. (At the same time, I wouldn't have had that full grip if Boseiju hadn't allowed my Future Sight to resolve past a Draining Whelk. So maybe this is a mistake?)
That might not be enough targets for him, Mimic Vat sort of fills the same role as him, and I can see how the RRR in his cost might be a problem, but I recommend giving him a test run at least.
Also, have you considered Mirror Sheen? I've always thought it would be fun to play in a UR deck.
Mimic Vat is much better simply because you can use your opponents creatures. Kiki is limited in that aspect. Plus, recurring a creature from your yard as UR is so much more difficult than it is to recur an artifact.
Sonik: I always play with a Reliquary Tower in any blue deck. I feel that not running Boseiju is ok, considering that many people would just destroy it if they can to stop you from doing outrageous things.
Yeah I'm an idiot for not playing it. I'd just felt like the deck had too much colorless mana for Dominus of Fealty and the :symu::symu::symu: spells and it's clear to me I made the wrong choice taking Boseiju over Reliquary tower. Though there may be room for both yet...
Edit: This deck is now besieged!
Here's some changes I made. Most strikingly, the Whim of Volrath / Memory Crystal package is out. I often see one card or the other but not both and they tend to disappoint me. Johnny is going back to his lair to brew up some more outrageous combos while Spike actually plays good cards...
Whim of Volrath-->Darksteel Plate
Shattering Pulse-->Into the Core
Sphinx of Magosi-->Consecrated Sphinx
Memory Crystal-->Island
Arcbound Reclaimer-->Sword of Kaldra
Izzet colors without Niv and Jhoira cutthroat reputation (which they rightly deserve). THIS is the Izzet Commander deck I've been waiting for. I think.
(Input appreciated!)
1 Tibor and Lumia (*)
Creatures - 17
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Draining Whelk (*)
1 Duplicant
1 Flameblast Dragon (*)
1 Gilded Drake
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Goblin Flectomancer (*)
1 Goblin Welder
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Izzet Chronarch
1 Keiga, the Tide Star (*)
1 Mulldrifter (*)
1 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
1 Solemn Simulacrum (*)
1 Trinket Mage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Wonder (*)
Enchantments - 4
1 Charisma
1 Future Sight
1 Rhystic Study
1 Treachery
Instants/Sorceries - 21
1 All is Dust
1 Bribery
1 Capsize
1 Electrolyze
1 Evacuation (*)
1 Fabricate (*)
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gamble
1 Hinder (*)
1 Insurrection
1 Into the Core (*)
1 Invoke the Firemind
1 Knowledge Exploitation (*)
1 Mystical Tutor (*)
1 Preordain
1 Prophetic Bolt
1 Pyroblast
1 Rite of Replication (*)
1 Starstorm
1 Suffocating Blast
1 Swerve
1 Tezzeret the Seeker (*)
Artifacts - 18
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Crystal Shard (*)
1 Darksteel Plate (*)
1 Expedition Map (*)
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Mimic Vat (*)
1 Power Matrix
1 Quietus Spike (*)
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice (*)
1 Sword of Kaldra
1 Tormod's Crypt (*)
1 Coalition Relic
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Izzet Signet
1 Sol Ring (*)
1 Thran Dynamo
Lands - 38
1 Academy Ruins
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Great Furnace
1 High Market
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Shivan Reef
1 Steam Vents
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolaria West
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Vesuva
1 Vivid Crag
1 Vivid Creek (*)
1 Volcanic Island
10 Island
7 Mountain
You'll notice a lot of cute synergy here but nothing ridiculous. No infinite combos, although I realize I'm only a Turnabout or a Mind over Matter away from them.
Let me go over the highlights.
First, the main strategy. Obviously there are some powerful enough cards in the deck that the general is not required in order to lay down the beats, but it's sort of the point (this is Commander, after all). Get deathtouch on Tibor and Lumia with Basilisk Collar or Quietus Spike, or just Sword of Kaldra. I did have Gorgon Flail in here in testing but I found it a little redundant. If I had one deathtouch equip, I really didn't want to see the other two. Anyway, they can be tutored up with Godo, Gamble, Fabricate, Tezzeret and Trinket Mage. Then wipe the board of ground-pounders with one of the 8 other :symu::symr: spells or give them flying first with a blue spell, Wonder in the yard or Power Matrix, then cast a red spell. Oh, or give 'em Sword of Fire and Ice and they'll be pro-red. Or give a good old Darksteel Plate. Yes, this is kind of complicated, but it has to be more satisfying than slapping Curiosity on Niv-Mizzet. I like the inherent Izzet flavor in haphazardly assembling a rickety death-ray
Obviously, this elaborate, interpretive song-and-dance does nothing against fliers. The plan then is to steal or counter the fliers I find threatening with stuff like Treachery and Draining Whelk.
Some more detailed synergies and card choices:
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind + half the deck: In a pinch or a fit of boredom, it's pretty easy to switch generals even. Basilisk Collar is even better on Niv-Mizzet when you need to kill fliers. The Izzet Lord is a perfect fit here.
Charisma + Tibor and Lumia: Follow it up with a red spell to steal every grounded dude on the table. I picture Gerrard in the pic saying "LOOK AT MY BICEPS" Just be careful with Lightning Greaves here. If you don't have another equip target, this aura will be trapped in your hand. If you don't have the speed boots, be careful you don't get hit with a doom blade EOT.
Future Sight + Sensei's Divining Top: This is more about Future Sight, actually. Never mind that this is ":1mana:: Draw a card." I just want to say, if your deck can reliably generate :symu::symu::symu:, make sure you are playing this card. The advantage it provides is disgustingly powerful. Check out the SCD I started on it to clear the air on the issue.
:symu::symr: spells: These are cool because they trigger both of Tibor and Lumia's abilities. If they have deathtouch as well, that's no joke. As such, cards like Prophetic Bolt and Invoke the Firemind are prioritized over nominally more powerful spells. I think that's the right move, but playing more games will help me figure that out.
Trinket Mage + Sol Ring/Sensei's Divining Top/Basilisk Collar/Tormod's Crypt/Great Furnace/Seat of the Synod: Pretty standard Trinket Mage package. I don't like Brittle Effigy because it isn't recurrable, but if my meta demands it I could be convinced.
Academy Ruins + all my artifacts: There's certainly enough to recur here. Cards like SoFI, Basilisk Collar and blowed-up manafacts will be important targets. Duplicant is probably the most abusive. I used to have Arcbound Reclaimer in here, but he just wasn't pulling his weight for me as much as I wanted. Could be convinced to take him back if the right cut were recommended.
Mystic Decree/Gravity Sphere: As much as I hate to admit it, these cards are somewhere between "win more" and flat-out detrimental to the deck. Firstly, while it's nice to be able to hit flyers with T+L, these cards do nothing to get them online with deathtouch or whatver. Most of the time I would draw one, I'd wish it was a Trinket Mage. Secondly, they both conflict with Wonder, as only the latest effect applies to the battlefield. If Wonder is in the yard, these two cards are practically dead in my hand. And finally, Blue and Red beaters' evasion is almost always flying. Taking this away would make closing out the game or even damaging other players pretty difficult. So thanks, but no thanks.
Predator, Flagship: This is out for testing other cards at the moment. I like the effects but it's such a mana hog I'm not usually happy to draw it.
Nucklavee: I felt he was overkill with Izzet Chronarch already in there. Also a casualty of trying to reduce overall CMC.
Tunnel Vision: Too easy.
Mind's Eye, Mystic Remora: Again, very powerful cards, but redundant with Rhystic Study and Future Sight.
Loxodon Warhammer, Gorgon Flail: Already have enough equips. These, while good (especially the warhammer, that cut hurt), I rarely tutor for either one and often the warhammer just sits in my hand waiting for six mana when I would rather trigger Tibor and Lumia.
Nevinyrral's Disk, Oblivion Stone: Both outclassed by All is Dust in a deck with so many artifacts.
Sakashima the Impostor, Vesuvan Doppelganger: I love copy effects as much as the next blue mage- that's why these cuts hurt.
Shattering Spree/Shattering Pulse: Just overlap with Into the Core, though pulse used to be in here. It could come back some day.
I probably missed more than a few. When you ask me why they aren't in there, I'm sure I'll think of something
Feel free to make suggestions (don't forget to tell me what to cut). Thanks for reading!
Still Messing Around With:
Electrtolyze
Predator, Flagship
Brainstorm/Preordain
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I'm also still looking for a way to get Mystic Remora involved.
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Irrespective of whether you think All is Dust is better than Nevinyrral's Disk or Oblivion Stone, they both deserve slots in the deck. For one, they are more catch all answers to difficult board positions, and therefore you have a sinificantly higher chance of drawing one. EDH is about different things for different people. However, people generally want to be doing something broken or playing big spells and dudes. Therefore you allways need MOAR answers. I'll get back to you on card suggestions and cuts...
Although I gotta say the new Sphinx that got spoiled is going to replace Mind's Eye in a whole lot of decks! WOW what a house!
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My all time favorite edh card is Planar Portal. Being able to tutor, for anything, in response to people's plays is always awesome. Best part is you don't reveal the card either! Can you say counter fetching?
Mizzium Transreliquat is truly amazing. In a format like edh, being able to have duplicates of some artifacts, Mirari for example, can lead to interesting situations.
There is a blue card that I also completely love and it should always be in a blue deck: Mind Over Matter. I get the vibe that you don't like infinite combos, so I wont feel bad if you don't like this but here is a couple funny things this card enables:
Arcanis the Omnipotent : You draw your deck. Include any card that lets you shuffle your graveyard back into your library and you just win, which isn't a bad thing sometimes. I don't consider this play to be too broken because being UR you don't have many ways to fetch specific creatures and enchantments, so if it goes off then power to you!
Goblin Welder + Solemn Simulacrum + any other artifact (in yard or play, depending on where solemn is): This doesn't net you a bunch of cards because you need to keep discarding, but it DOES let you essentially search for good cards while dumping some of your basic lands into play tapped. This can also be pretty broken if you're doing this with a mana tapper as your artifact you're cycling with.
Just to be silly, I included these cards in my deck: Stitch in Time or Goblin Flectomancer. I like these two at first sight when I was prowling for cards, what's your take?
Hopefully this helped
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I'll touch on Mizzium Transreliquat first- I would love to play this. I have one specifically for EDH. The flavor on it is awesome and 3 mana to have copy any artifact on the board. I just don't know what to cut! I don't really want to touch the manabase because it's actually been pretty good for me. The other poster here has already indicted Rhystic Study and it possible I could get rid of that. After all, the Transreliquat could very well be a Mind's Eye
Planar Portal is fantastic too. I played it in some earlier decks and I was never sad to draw it. I just think it's got a hard time competing for space here. You could say Mimic Vat is "my" Planar Portal in that it will go in pretty much every deck I play.
As for Mind over Matter... well, I get the feeling when I drop that, the table will want to kill me in the next two turns and I'm not sure I want that type of aggression unless I'm going infinite. If I need to make the deck more competitive in the future, I'd certainly consider it. And thanks for pointing me to Goblin Welder- he'd be very useful as artifact recursion. He could potentially beat out Arcbound Reclaimer. He's slower initially but much being able to switch out the artifacts at instant speed is pretty sick.
And finally, I do love Goblin Flectomancer! But with Tibor and Lumia pounding the ground all the time, he's a liability more than anything else. I don't want to be afraid to play him because I'm ready to earthquake with my general. But as a :symu::symr: spell he would certainly get a little more priority than the Reverberates and Twincasts of the world.
Coincidentally, I'd love to be able to add Twincast and Wild Ricochet here. I just wouldn't know what to cut.
Thanks for the thoughtful suggestions. I'm pretty sure I'll find a way to get the Mizzium Transreliquat in but it'll probably take some thought.
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I've always loved the Izzet League flavor. Glad to see someone building UR without it being Niv combo or Chaos.
Kudos on a well thought out and executed deck. It looks like fun.
With Hinder and Spin into myth in the deck, aren't you tempted to Tunnel Vision? Or just want to stay away from the easy combo?
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EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Your commendation makes my day! Thanks man!
It seems like I should have included a lot more in my "this is what I didn't play" section. I have two copies of Tunnel Vision- but yes, I do want to stay away from the easy combo. I'm actively working with some of the more casual players at the LGS on getting them into EDH and that is exactly the kind of play I wouldn't want to do to them (or have done to me).
I guess that's my philosophy on Mind over Matter/Temple Bell and friends. I'd be pretty bummed if I got one-shotted by a two-card combo, so why inflict it on anyone else?
Then again, if it turns out that the competition gets a little more cutthroat, well, that's why I have two copies of Tunnel Vision
Thanks again, seriously.
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Just taking a look some more (bored at work on lunch lol) I'd probably do these swaps if it was me:
Basilisk Collar or Quietus Spike for Sword of Kaldra: I like this more because you can rfg the creatures you hit. My play group plays with a lot of Eternal Witness recursion so being able to simply get rid of her right away is good.
A card I forgot to mention last night was Recurring Insight. I've had a lot of success with this card in my leaque so I figured it was worth a mention.
There are some cards I am meh on when I look at them in your list, I feel like they aren't required:
Izzet Signet: why not Dreamstone Hedron instead? I've never been a big fan of the signets =/
Power Matrix: You have a lot of cards already to fetch/protect tibor and lumia. Based off the decklist, I don't think you attack too often so why not replace this with something else?
Vesuva: I guess I didn't notice, but what lands do you really want to hit with this?
If you really want Wild Ricochet in here, I would replace Swerve with it. They basically do the same thing, only for 2 colorless you get to copy as well.
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You have some good suggestions. I appreciate the feedback very much.
Basilisk Collar is a must because it's a frequent Trinket Mage target and deathtouch is how I keep control of the board. Sword of Kaldra is pretty hot though. The +5/+5 is no joke when most of my creatures are flyers. I am tempted to give it a go over the spike as soon as I can find one. This is definitely a "go big or go home" format and I would be happy to upgrade in kind.
The signet is good for me. It makes my opening hands much more keepable. Dreamstone Hedron is quite good though. If I wasn't playing color-intense spells like Dominus of Fealty and Future Sight, I would be more inclined to use it. Consider it on my watch list.
Power Matrix is there just to grant flying to my general. That's pretty much it. I like it so far. It's a bit inefficient for my purposes at as you've said, but if I cut it I would have to replace it with something better that protects my general, which I'm hard-pressed to find. I have already used it politically as well so a third player could swing at a second player's Planeswalker. I'm never sad to draw any of my "give my general protection from himself" cards because they're all powerful enough for other reasons. I've thought of Akroma's Memorial at for the same function but there just isn't enough creatures in the deck to take advantage of it and it'll probably get volition reins'd anyway
Recurring Insight is awesome. I give it serious consideration whenever I make a blue deck. Unfortunately, I gave the nod to Invoke the Firemind because of its :symu::symr: colors. It's less powerful but the utility of it helps out the deck.
Aaaaaand I have no idea what to expect with vesuva, really. I just figured it would be a reflecting pool or an academy ruins or something. I think it's useful enough that I wouldn't want to cut it. There isn't a critical mass of CIPT lands here so it's not hurting me too much (yet). I'll consider it expendable though, so thanks.
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Volrath's Stronghold
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Kor Haven
Minamo
Boseiju
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EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
He already runs Strip mine and Tectonic edge for that. That's why I considered it a tossable, though it's an amazing card if you can abuse it.
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Gather Specimens has had some hillarious moments in my meta. One time a guy Rite of Replication'ed with a kicker a Primeval Titan and I played it. It was a pro play if you ask me lol
You run some counters in here, have you considered Venser, Shaper Savant? You play with Crystal Shard which makes Venser easily re-usable.
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Venser is indeed a fabulous Mimic Vat/Crystal Shard target. The most similar card is Glen Elendra Archmage, who's better at what she does but is definitely more narrow (and more costly) than Venser. If I need more disruption, I'll definitely add him before adding any instant counterspells.
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True about Glen Elendra Archmage + Mimic Vat, but sometimes I feel like it's just too much control if you know what I mean. With Venser, it's softer because at least people don't lose the spell; they don't "cry" as much about it being stopped.
My deck is also still in the testing stage so I still have Dominus of Fealty in mine, but I know what you mean about it. I've had times when he just sits in my hand because I can't afford to spend the colored mana on him and leave myself vulnerable. Considering my Tibor and Lumia is usually the go-to controller of stupid stuff, I hate being that open.
Another card that I've had interesting success with is Stuffy Doll, the only problem is it really cause's player hate when I cast it. However, sometimes our Teneb player casts Exsanguinate with an X of 15 in a 6 player game. In those cases I feel he deserves a Stuffy Doll to the face.
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Stuffy Doll is pretty interesting. With all the ways I have to give him flying he could be a hilarious blocker. He does do double duty on the ground with T+L unfortuately, whose main goal is to clear the ground of the guys stuffy doll likes to block. And he's useless against tramplers too. I find too many resources dedicated to one thing (stopping ground pounders in this case) gives me less answers to other problems. I have never had the opportunity to trade for one but he's definitely on my lookout list. At 5 CMC he's got a tough spot to compete for. For instance, Archmage with counter ability backup.
I'm definitely going to get a Sword of Kaldra subbed in for Quietus Spike and see how that goes.
Edit: Official changes!
Out: Mulldrifter
In: Mystic Remora
*I'm really not sure about this one. This is just a test to see how much I like Mystic Remora, really. I evoke mulldrifter 95% of the time so he really only combos with Mimic Vat in the deck. Mystic Remora is practically guaranteed to draw me more cards for less mana. So we'll see.
Out: Tectonic Edge
In: Mizzium Transreliquat
*Hoping 37 lands is enough with the artifact accel here. Not to mention the Mizzium Transreliquat is likely to become artifact mana half the time anyway. Tec edge is the most redundant land what with Strip Mine and Vesuva there to kill legendary lands already (both tutorable). I never really like removing mana for mana-intensive spells but Mizzium can have its cost spread out over 2 or more turns, which somewhat mitigates the problem.
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Would that work for all the creatures? The rulings on it don't point anything about that but considering that scythe has to go to the creature that this works on and potentially all the creatures leave at once, assuming you're using deathtouch somehow, wouldn't you only get a single creature?
Personally, I am not a fan of Mystic Remora. I feel that it draws more "hate" than Mulldrifter. "Hate" refers to the fact that the people in the game would be more opposed to targeting you with their beats. Maybe it's just my play group, but basically this card would do me more harm than good, depending on when you play it.
And your land sub for Mizzium is fine if you ask me. I felt that the amount of land destruction you had was enough as it is, so I approve.
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I found this link
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/25655149/Blocking_Scythe_of_the_Wretched_with_more_than_one_creature.?post_id=462465557#462465557
The meat of this thread basically is
So yes it should work just fine.
1) Attach a deathtouch equip on the general (there are two in the deck) or Whim of Volrath+Memory Stone
2) Attach Scythe to the general. This is not cheap.
3) Play a red spell.
All while not drawing enough hate to have the general killed.
This does work and can be a hilarious surprise but I see it as a "win more" situation. If I am wiping out all non-flyers, do I really need control of all of them? Insurrection gets them all temporarily as just one card. It's a great recommendation but I feel that it's just to difficult to rely on. In contrast, Sword of Kaldra RFG's everything without flying AND gives the general +5/+5 as only one card. So that's the sort of thing the scythe has to compete with.
On Mulldrifter vs Mystic Remora- I am already uncomfortable with having made the change (what's a blue deck doing not playing Mulldrifter!) but I'm stuck without it tonight. I will change it back if Remora "draws" too much hate
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I like Mystic Remora but not nearly as much as Mulldrifter.
I've noticed that Kiki-Jiki synergizes with quite a few of your creatures.
Arcbound Reclaimer
Draining Whelk
Duplicant
Izzet Chronarch
Mulldrifter (if you put it back in)
Solemn Simalcrum
Nucklavee
Trinket Mage
That might not be enough targets for him, Mimic Vat sort of fills the same role as him, and I can see how the RRR in his cost might be a problem, but I recommend giving him a test run at least.
Also, have you considered Mirror Sheen? I've always thought it would be fun to play in a UR deck.
I already put Mulldrifter back in. That was a mistake :(. Mystic Remora is just gonna have to sit this one out.
Mirror Sheen works best with time walk effects (or targeted card draw like Stroke of Genius). Since this deck doesn't run any, I'll just hang on to Reiterate and call it a day. I would like to play with it sometime but it just has a very hard time competing for space with all the other useful cards.
Tibor and Lumia is definitely an underused commander and I feel like it adds to their charm. I can safely say my deck isn't there to screw up the table like your garden-variety chaos deck and I have a great time playing it myself. If you try them, let me know how it works for you man. Sure beats slapping Curiosity on Niv or suspending Obliterate with Jhoria
EDIT: In addition to the Mystic Remora/Mulldrifter swap-back, I changed out Boseiju for Reliquary Tower. What's the point of having abusive card advantage (top/future sight, mulldrifter/mimic vat) if I can't abuse it past seven cards? I also got annoyed at how often I found myself tapping Boseiju for mana. I don't mind losing two life to Steam Vents, but I lost something like 14 life the other day on Boseiju alone and when I went to Expedition Map for a Tower to enjoy my new 9-card hand, I didn't have one. (At the same time, I wouldn't have had that full grip if Boseiju hadn't allowed my Future Sight to resolve past a Draining Whelk. So maybe this is a mistake?)
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Mimic Vat is much better simply because you can use your opponents creatures. Kiki is limited in that aspect. Plus, recurring a creature from your yard as UR is so much more difficult than it is to recur an artifact.
Sonik: I always play with a Reliquary Tower in any blue deck. I feel that not running Boseiju is ok, considering that many people would just destroy it if they can to stop you from doing outrageous things.
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Edit: This deck is now besieged!
Here's some changes I made. Most strikingly, the Whim of Volrath / Memory Crystal package is out. I often see one card or the other but not both and they tend to disappoint me. Johnny is going back to his lair to brew up some more outrageous combos while Spike actually plays good cards...
Whim of Volrath-->Darksteel Plate
Shattering Pulse-->Into the Core
Sphinx of Magosi-->Consecrated Sphinx
Memory Crystal-->Island
Arcbound Reclaimer-->Sword of Kaldra
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