Ive tried building Viggy once before and I hated it, but now I realize I had totally the wrong idea for using him. Coming back to him now a year or so later and I see what an incredibly powerful general he can be. I cant say much that hasnt been said elsewhere, but suffice to say tutoring=awesome. He is an incredible engine for Card advantage and utility, as he can turn even a lowliest creature into a tutor to put something relevant on top.
Alright, lets talk about the basic plan of the deck:
1) play momir vig (preferably early) with some sort of protection (lightning greaves, whispersilk cloak, neurok stealthsuit, countermagic)
2)tutor for whatever you need with a stream of synergistic creatures.
Simply having Vig down creates a board state where you will almost always get what you need. Winning is usually swinging a few times with a fatty or a hoard of pumped creatures.
I know i know, Im missing alot of the best creatures for this deck and hopefully ill be trading for them soon if not just ordering them. Trygon protector, simic sky swallower, tidespout tyrant, mystic snake, and im sure there is a wealth of others. Non-creature cards this deck really wants are things like crystal shard and genesis for a better system of recursion and being able to bounce my own guys for their etb triggers (right now im using waterfront bouncer and I actually like him a lot. I can tutor for him and with all the cards this deck draws it really isnt too much of a cost, so he may stay either way). Besides that, it mostly is just lacking the powerful EDH staples that I havent picked up yet, sylvan library and sol ring being the two main cards in this category. I may be moving magus of the future and some other things here out of wydwen if this deck keeps doing so well (hate having them fighting over blue cards).
HOWEVER, even missing all these awesome cards, THIS DECK IS STILL PRETTY POWERFUL! even a semi-budget, non-optimal momir vig deck has the potential to bring alot of game to the table. I have been testing it against my wydwen deck where all my "good" cards tend to reside (awesome pws like Jace the mindsculptor, powerful sweepers like damnation etc, and big nasties like wurmcoil engine), and it has been able to win alot more of the matches then I wold have expected and has been able to come back from some pretty staggering position.
This leads to the question, what synergies am i talking about, so here are some of my card choices and explanations for them:
zoologist : underrated. people see this and say "aw how cute, nice to know i dont need to really worry about YOUR deck." this deck loves knowing whats on top of my deck and being able to get big guys or utility meanies (acidic slime) down at instant speed is AWEOME!
rush of knowledge: always worth it. was considering souls majesty, but I like this one much much better.
spellbook: I wanted this to be reliquary tower, but honestly there are some times when I already have top and I want to keep my cards that I have grabbed this with trinket mage. I thought maybe itd be a waste of a slot, but Im not so convinced of this anymore. certainly debatable but I want to test it more UPDATE 2/19: spellbook is really bad sometimes. when Im behind and i draw this instead of a creature, it is too painful. cut, adding reliquary tower soon
Wild pair: its like having an extra vig trigger, except it goes straight to the battlefield.
A few additional notes:
*my build has a lot of ramp and fixing (maybe too much). I really like hitting my mana drops and getting vig down as soon as possible though, so I wont be cutting much of it.
*I think I have too much artifact/enchantment hate in the form of spells. some is good, but I already have enough creatures and ways to find them/recur them to keep artifacts under control, but I want a few in the form of spells. but, naturalize and relic crush are probably unnecessary. Replacing it with better stuff (more draw me thinks).
*UPDATE 2/19: took out some of the 1 for 1 artifact destruction for better blue cards. These were a little too narrow and didnt help my plan as much as I wanted. Relic crush stays because two artifacts for one card at instant speed is handy somtimes
*I dont use much countermagic, and the ones I use are not optimal. Dream fracture could just as easily be cancel. why did I do this? People hate me when I counter their spells. It makes me a target. the mood of the table changes to "kill that guy who is countering my spells." Id rather let someone else be that guy, and therefor I only run a few conterspells, and I try to only use them to protect my plans. I like dream fracture because people dont mind getting stuff countered so much when they get to draw a card. I will possibly add more, but definitely not more than a few more.
*Tutor general usually means combo general. I know there are many good combos to achieve with this guy, but I lack alot of the right cards for them. Maybe once I get some more I will build them in, but for now he is doing fine without going infinite.
*this is basically my own version of this deck:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUgcddlP3mo.. there are some subtle diferences but if you are looking for something that is basically the optimal version of what I would build, click here.
Any suggestions, questions or thoughts about this list would be greatly appreciated
The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
*I dont use much countermagic, and the ones I use are not optimal. Dream fracture could just as easily be cancel. why did I do this? People hate me when I counter their spells. It makes me a target. the mood of the table changes to "kill that guy who is countering my spells." Id rather let someone else be that guy, and therefor I only run a few conterspells, and I try to only use them to protect my plans. I like dream fracture because people dont mind getting stuff countered so much when they get to draw a card. I will possibly add more, but definitely not more than a few more.
A cheap counter I really like is Arcane Denial. It cantrips, costs 2 and apologizes for you.
Spellbook isn't a waste of a slot as badly as it is a waste of a Trinket Mage target. Don't grab spellbook- grab Expedition Map and pop it for Reliquary Tower- at least it taps for mana, and the map can be recurred via Academy Ruins, a card you should also consider playing.
Lurking Predators seems like it was made for Momir... you could cast any green or UG instant spell you want in response to its trigger to cherry-pick your creature of choice. You could probably cut Aether Spellbomb.
If you're looking for pure card advantage, I see you're missing Rhystic Study. You will draw many more cards off that than you will with Rush of Knowledge. Definitely give it serious thought and/or testing. If you want it instant/sorcery style, better card draw than Rush of Knowledge also includes Recurring Insight and Mind Spring.
I do like your decision to run Dream Fracture over Cancel. It's just that Dissipate is so much better as it exiles their spell that it's probably worth it to prevent GY shenanigans.
Cool suggestions! Yea, lurking predators seems really nasty in here, Ill have to see if I can get ma hands on one sometime soon!
Ryhstic study is another one of those multiplayer staples that has somehow managed to constantly elude my grasp!! Definitely would have a slot though.
Im gonna keep spellbook for now.. we shall see if I like it or not as I play with it more. Reliquary tapping for mana seems like its going to push it out.
O and arcane denial seems meh to me.. two cards is a lot more than one for them. It changes it from replacing the card they wanted to cast with another one in hand to
giving them two cards for the one they wanted to cast. Im ok with the additional one mana on dream fracture to keep a card away from them
thanks guys, keepem coming!
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
I didn't look at your list, but if your thread title is a TPC reference, I fully support this thread.
IT IS!!! ten points to you for picking that up yea, theyre awesome. when I was sleeving this deck up that song popped into my head.
and the dosu list looks like combo elves, which is really cool but not exactly the direction I am looking to take Vig. Thanks for showing me the deck though
DECK UPDATE:
-harabaz druid: originally there was a cute little allies/staff of domination combo here that I took out. Dont need this guy anymore.
-spellbook: bad sometimes, not good enough the other times to make it worth it im afraid. gave it a chance at least.
-naturalize: redundant and unnecessary. not good enough here.
-krosan grip : see naturalize
+clone: may not kill generals but its fun to tutor him up and copy someones best guy forgot how much fun clone is
+aeon chronicler: can be really big, but more importantly can draw me a nice bundle of CA
+Deep analysis: four for one. 3 life in EDH is usually pretty negligible, and if its not then Im probably too far behind anyways.
+condescend: sometimes If I dont need a counter I just scry two. but sometimes I really do need a counter. this one is good not great and goes in because of its versatility.
Cards I am looking at adding potentially(that I own right now): Sigil tracer: copying spells is soo much fun..really want this in there somewhere aethersnipe: versatile bounce spell that is sometimes a beater..sounds perfect, but what to cut? confiscate: maybe, not quite sure on this one. wish I had a sower of temptation or something like that, but maybe confiscate could work..
The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
i think this is the one. i didnt watch it, but i'm pretty sure this is what you're looking for
lol yep, thats about it
I dont agree with all his choices though and there are a few differences, but I would run a lot of those same cards if I had them. Overall, this is a very similar style deck, thanks for pointing it out. I might add that link to the op for people to see
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
trying sigil tracer in place of voidmage husher. that card was really good in some games but not always worth it.
Sigil tracer seems more fun
probably going to add some more fat at some point. elvish visionary might be going in to, cause its cute lol
_____________________________________________________________
UPDATED 2/25: I like sigil tracer more, its hilarious and decent enough for a slot. A few changes:
-experiment kraj: my vorthos didnt win this time. He wasnt pulling his weight even though he is hella fun.
-sylvan ranger: unnecessary fixing, took it out to put into a prismatic deck im working on
-arcanis the omnipotent: probably good enough but he is rarely relevant since I dont use mind over matter...we shall see.
-wayfarers bauble: unnecessary ramp. better off in other decks.
+Frontier guide: a green journeyers kite? Sure ill try that
+some other cards I cant think of..Ill look at em again and update the OP later. Any thoughts on these few changes??
The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
@scotty: Thanks and I was just thinking myself that maybe more instants would be a big boon. I think I might be a tad creature heavy. I mean we want alot of creatures, just trying to get the right amount.
FIXED: Im an idiot and thought this was a different card :embarrass::embarrass:
and yes to crystal shard, im looking to trade with a guy i know for a couple for EDH. I know theyre cheap but I dont see many of them around.
@chongsen: thanks, theres some nifty stuff in here! I like tawnos's coffin and I really wish I had a terrastadon.
I will edit this post and the OP later when I have the deck in front of me
The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
quick list just so I remember and can look back at this quickly later:
woodfall primus
terrestadon
coffin maybe sometime winding canyons!!
AND I acutally took the time to click on winding canyons, and I am such an idiot! I thought it was that one instant bounce spell that can get kicked or has buyback or whatever by sacrificing a land or something..i see it in legacy decks. Its name is something like that isnt it??
Anyway, this is an awesome land that this deck definitely definitely wants nice find!!!!
Ignore my earlier post aimed @scotty because Im stupid lol
The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
Scryb Ranger: awesome! instant speed on this makes it off the chizzain carven caryatid : more draw. its like another wall o blossoms frontier guide : trying it out, good results so far deadly recluse : green terror makes me wish I had genesis though
Thats about it, hope you guys are enjoying the deck! I may be redoing the OP to be less random and scatter-brained and more like a primer.
The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
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So, without further ado, my decklist for Momir Vig, Simic Visionary:
1 Momir vig, simic visionary
U/G creatures
1 Winged Coatl
1 Wistful Selkie
1 Murkfiend Liege
1 Coiling oracle
1 Plax caster frogling
Green Creatures
1 Wood elves
1 Living Hive
1 Acidic slime
1 wall of blossoms
1 birds of paradise
1 arashi, the sky asunder
1 bellowing tanglewurm
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Zoologist
1 Magus of the library
1 Frontier guide
1 eternal whitness
1 devoted druid
1 wall of roots
1 Indrik stomphowler
1 joraga treespeaker
1 deadly recluse
1 carven caryatid
1 Scryb ranger
Blue Creatures
1 Clone
1 aeon chronicler
1 Riftwing cloudskate
1 quicksilver dragon
1 Mulldrifter
1 sigil tracer
1 kederekt leviathan
1 denizen of the deep
1 ixidron
1 waterfront bouncer
1 man-o'-war
1 trinket mage
1 deep-sea kraken
1 garruk wildspeaker
1 jace beleren
Artifacts
1 Lightning Greaves
1 simic signet
1 aether spellbomb
1 Neurok stealthsuit
1 expedition map
1 skull clamp
1 sensei's diving top
1 Whispersilk cloak
Enchantment
1 Wild pair
Sorceries
50 harmonize
51 rush of knowledge
52 tidings
53 deep analysis
Instants
54 reclaim
55 condescend
56 relic crush
57 echoing truth
58 boomerang
59 snap
60 dream fracture
61 hinder
62 repulse
63 fact or fiction
64 counterspell
65 snakeform
66 dryad arbor
67 simic growth chamber
68 vivid creek
69 pendelhaven
70 terrain generator
71 vivid grove
72 novigen, heart of progress
73 khalni garden
74 terminal moraine
75 oran-rief, the vastwood
76 shimmering grotto
78 bant panorama
79 mikokoro
80 misty rainforest
81 terrmorphic expanse
1) play momir vig (preferably early) with some sort of protection (lightning greaves, whispersilk cloak, neurok stealthsuit, countermagic)
2)tutor for whatever you need with a stream of synergistic creatures.
Simply having Vig down creates a board state where you will almost always get what you need. Winning is usually swinging a few times with a fatty or a hoard of pumped creatures.
I know i know, Im missing alot of the best creatures for this deck and hopefully ill be trading for them soon if not just ordering them. Trygon protector, simic sky swallower, tidespout tyrant, mystic snake, and im sure there is a wealth of others. Non-creature cards this deck really wants are things like crystal shard and genesis for a better system of recursion and being able to bounce my own guys for their etb triggers (right now im using waterfront bouncer and I actually like him a lot. I can tutor for him and with all the cards this deck draws it really isnt too much of a cost, so he may stay either way). Besides that, it mostly is just lacking the powerful EDH staples that I havent picked up yet, sylvan library and sol ring being the two main cards in this category. I may be moving magus of the future and some other things here out of wydwen if this deck keeps doing so well (hate having them fighting over blue cards).
HOWEVER, even missing all these awesome cards, THIS DECK IS STILL PRETTY POWERFUL! even a semi-budget, non-optimal momir vig deck has the potential to bring alot of game to the table. I have been testing it against my wydwen deck where all my "good" cards tend to reside (awesome pws like Jace the mindsculptor, powerful sweepers like damnation etc, and big nasties like wurmcoil engine), and it has been able to win alot more of the matches then I wold have expected and has been able to come back from some pretty staggering position.
This leads to the question, what synergies am i talking about, so here are some of my card choices and explanations for them:
rush of knowledge: always worth it. was considering souls majesty, but I like this one much much better.
spellbook: I wanted this to be reliquary tower, but honestly there are some times when I already have top and I want to keep my cards that I have grabbed this with trinket mage. I thought maybe itd be a waste of a slot, but Im not so convinced of this anymore. certainly debatable but I want to test it moreUPDATE 2/19: spellbook is really bad sometimes. when Im behind and i draw this instead of a creature, it is too painful. cut, adding reliquary tower soon
Wild pair: its like having an extra vig trigger, except it goes straight to the battlefield.
A few additional notes:
*my build has a lot of ramp and fixing (maybe too much). I really like hitting my mana drops and getting vig down as soon as possible though, so I wont be cutting much of it.
*
I think I have too much artifact/enchantment hate in the form of spells. some is good, but I already have enough creatures and ways to find them/recur them to keep artifacts under control, but I want a few in the form of spells. but, naturalize and relic crush are probably unnecessary. Replacing it with better stuff (more draw me thinks).*UPDATE 2/19: took out some of the 1 for 1 artifact destruction for better blue cards. These were a little too narrow and didnt help my plan as much as I wanted. Relic crush stays because two artifacts for one card at instant speed is handy somtimes
*I dont use much countermagic, and the ones I use are not optimal. Dream fracture could just as easily be cancel. why did I do this? People hate me when I counter their spells. It makes me a target. the mood of the table changes to "kill that guy who is countering my spells." Id rather let someone else be that guy, and therefor I only run a few conterspells, and I try to only use them to protect my plans. I like dream fracture because people dont mind getting stuff countered so much when they get to draw a card. I will possibly add more, but definitely not more than a few more.
*Tutor general usually means combo general. I know there are many good combos to achieve with this guy, but I lack alot of the right cards for them. Maybe once I get some more I will build them in, but for now he is doing fine without going infinite.
*this is basically my own version of this deck:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUgcddlP3mo.. there are some subtle diferences but if you are looking for something that is basically the optimal version of what I would build, click here.
Any suggestions, questions or thoughts about this list would be greatly appreciated
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
A cheap counter I really like is Arcane Denial. It cantrips, costs 2 and apologizes for you.
Lurking Predators seems like it was made for Momir... you could cast any green or UG instant spell you want in response to its trigger to cherry-pick your creature of choice. You could probably cut Aether Spellbomb.
If you're looking for pure card advantage, I see you're missing Rhystic Study. You will draw many more cards off that than you will with Rush of Knowledge. Definitely give it serious thought and/or testing. If you want it instant/sorcery style, better card draw than Rush of Knowledge also includes Recurring Insight and Mind Spring.
I do like your decision to run Dream Fracture over Cancel. It's just that Dissipate is so much better as it exiles their spell that it's probably worth it to prevent GY shenanigans.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Ryhstic study is another one of those multiplayer staples that has somehow managed to constantly elude my grasp!! Definitely would have a slot though.
Im gonna keep spellbook for now.. we shall see if I like it or not as I play with it more. Reliquary tapping for mana seems like its going to push it out.
O and arcane denial seems meh to me.. two cards is a lot more than one for them. It changes it from replacing the card they wanted to cast with another one in hand to
giving them two cards for the one they wanted to cast. Im ok with the additional one mana on dream fracture to keep a card away from them
thanks guys, keepem coming!
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
check out the d0su list. i love it.
Lover of EDH, hater of whiny EDH players.
IT IS!!! ten points to you for picking that up yea, theyre awesome. when I was sleeving this deck up that song popped into my head.
and the dosu list looks like combo elves, which is really cool but not exactly the direction I am looking to take Vig. Thanks for showing me the deck though
DECK UPDATE:
-harabaz druid: originally there was a cute little allies/staff of domination combo here that I took out. Dont need this guy anymore.
-spellbook: bad sometimes, not good enough the other times to make it worth it im afraid. gave it a chance at least.
-naturalize: redundant and unnecessary. not good enough here.
-krosan grip : see naturalize
+clone: may not kill generals but its fun to tutor him up and copy someones best guy forgot how much fun clone is
+aeon chronicler: can be really big, but more importantly can draw me a nice bundle of CA
+Deep analysis: four for one. 3 life in EDH is usually pretty negligible, and if its not then Im probably too far behind anyways.
+condescend: sometimes If I dont need a counter I just scry two. but sometimes I really do need a counter. this one is good not great and goes in because of its versatility.
Cards I am looking at adding potentially(that I own right now):
Sigil tracer: copying spells is soo much fun..really want this in there somewhere
aethersnipe: versatile bounce spell that is sometimes a beater..sounds perfect, but what to cut?
confiscate: maybe, not quite sure on this one. wish I had a sower of temptation or something like that, but maybe confiscate could work..
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
i think this is the one. i didnt watch it, but i'm pretty sure this is what you're looking for
lol yep, thats about it
I dont agree with all his choices though and there are a few differences, but I would run a lot of those same cards if I had them. Overall, this is a very similar style deck, thanks for pointing it out. I might add that link to the op for people to see
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
Sigil tracer seems more fun
probably going to add some more fat at some point. elvish visionary might be going in to, cause its cute lol
_____________________________________________________________
UPDATED 2/25: I like sigil tracer more, its hilarious and decent enough for a slot. A few changes:
-experiment kraj: my vorthos didnt win this time. He wasnt pulling his weight even though he is hella fun.
-sylvan ranger: unnecessary fixing, took it out to put into a prismatic deck im working on
-arcanis the omnipotent: probably good enough but he is rarely relevant since I dont use mind over matter...we shall see.
-wayfarers bauble: unnecessary ramp. better off in other decks.
+Frontier guide: a green journeyers kite? Sure ill try that
+some other cards I cant think of..Ill look at em again and update the OP later. Any thoughts on these few changes??
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
With so many Comes-Into-Play abilities, what about Crystal Shard?
Also, where this deck feels pretty controllish, I'd imagine it doesn't like spending mana until opponent's EOT. Winding Canyons?
It may give you some help
Thanks and I was just thinking myself that maybe more instants would be a big boon. I think I might be a tad creature heavy. I mean we want alot of creatures, just trying to get the right amount.FIXED: Im an idiot and thought this was a different card :embarrass::embarrass:
and yes to crystal shard, im looking to trade with a guy i know for a couple for EDH. I know theyre cheap but I dont see many of them around.
@chongsen: thanks, theres some nifty stuff in here! I like tawnos's coffin and I really wish I had a terrastadon.
I will edit this post and the OP later when I have the deck in front of me
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
noted for sure!
quick list just so I remember and can look back at this quickly later:
woodfall primus
terrestadon
coffin maybe sometime
winding canyons!!
AND I acutally took the time to click on winding canyons, and I am such an idiot! I thought it was that one instant bounce spell that can get kicked or has buyback or whatever by sacrificing a land or something..i see it in legacy decks. Its name is something like that isnt it??
Anyway, this is an awesome land that this deck definitely definitely wants nice find!!!!
Ignore my earlier post aimed @scotty because Im stupid lol
UPDATED THE OP ON 3/1/11
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
Scryb Ranger: awesome! instant speed on this makes it off the chizzain
carven caryatid : more draw. its like another wall o blossoms
frontier guide : trying it out, good results so far
deadly recluse : green terror makes me wish I had genesis though
Thats about it, hope you guys are enjoying the deck! I may be redoing the OP to be less random and scatter-brained and more like a primer.
Trying out vine trellis in, relic crush out.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.