Hey everyone! I have been lurking around the Cube forums for a while now, especially klug's list for Uncommon/Common cubes, and I am a huge fan of cube drafting. I have a regular cube which is more of a group project, but I have designed and tested this cube as a solo venture, so I decided here would be a good place to discuss it.
My apologies for the card tagging - I used the [CARDS*] tag, and it sees the asterisks as part of the card name.
Basic Cube Information: Cards = 392, 50 of each color, 50 multicolored, 40 artifacts, 52 lands ,* = Foil or Painted, && = textless Theme: Commons and Uncommons Cube
Cards in this cube must have been printed as a common or uncommon
Rares that were once uncommons are legal, all forms of the card are allowed Snow: No Ante, etc.: No "Un": Yes, 2 cards, AWOL, Carnivorous Death Parrot Proxies: Yes, but unwanted Powered: Impossible Banned Cards for Power-Level: Library of Alexandria, Sol Ring, Skullclamp Banned Cards for Time Constraint: No Banned Cards for Fun Factor: None so far, but fun is the main reason for the existence of this cube, so it is the primary objective of cube design; there are no sacred cows. Balanced CMC: No Average Number of Players: 2-man Cascade/Winston, 4 man 4x11 booster Draft Frequency: varies
While I am always looking to improve my list, I am not looking for blanket recommendations on card switches like I have seen in other cube commentary. Instead, I would prefer a discussion individual cards. I know that my list is different from other lists, and I don't believe that a perfect cube list exists; that is why it is my cube, and why I have made some of the choices I have made.
More importantly than single card discussion, these are the topics I'm considering right now in cube design. Your opinions are appreciated:
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1. What is the role of ramp in Peasant Cube? Should it be a supported archetype, and if so, what amount of slots in a ~400 card cube should be devoted to that archetype?
2. Same question as #1, but this time for reanimator decks - is this viable in Peasant?
3. Do cycles have intrinsic value as part of cube design? (For example, please see multicolored - yes, I do have every single guildmage)
4. Do Blue and Green require a different number of creatures/non-creatures as part of their color identity? Is a completely balanced cube in regards to creatures and non-creatures better/worse/indifferent than the configuration of the cube I have now (Blue is 40% Creatures/60% Non-Creatures, and Green is the reverse, 60% Creatures/40% Non-Creatures).
5. Is change in cube card configuration/list only a tool to increase the power/accommodate new sets/etc in a current design, or is change in card configuration/list in itself a healthy process for cube design that increases fun for players?
I am interested in all of the common Phyrexian mana creatures (yes even the Black one) although I am only certain that Porcelain Legionnaire is absolutely making it in as of right now.
If you can't tell, I'm not a fan of the Guildmage cycle. Azorius is the only one that's really worthy. The activation costs on these guys is extremely high for the effect and generally, they just aren't worth it. There are better options across the board.
I'd also recommend moving cards like Kird Ape, Loam Lion, and Momentary Blink to their respective gold sections. This is a change I made a long while ago in my rare cube and plan on making with my C/U cube with my NPH update.
Thanks for your thoughts for my Gold section. As for your suggestions to cut the Guildmage cycle, well, I already said that I wasn't looking for a blanket list of cuts and changes. I am not necessarily looking to make my U/C cube the same as the stereotypical U/C cube you might find on MTGS, and I prefer that.
I will write up a reason for why I like the Guildmages at some future time, but for now, the quick notes are that they support a more aggressive multicolor that still can be used by either composite color, have utility, and provide a quality size for the cost. Their utility is obviously not as great as other individual spells, but something I am exploring now in my cube design is whether or not cycles have a place in cube design. Please see my second post for more things I am considering.
I do admit that there are some Gold cards that really do need an update (Vedalkin Outlander being a great example, still looking for a Kiss of the Amesha to replace it with) So I appreciate the suggestions.
As for the CMC sorting, I will do that when I get a chance.
1. What is the role of ramp in Peasant Cube? Should it be a supported archetype, and if so, what amount of slots in a ~400 card cube should be devoted to that archetype?
Ramp can be present in a peasant cube. It's not as abundant in the form of fast mana artifacts like it is in powered cubes, but it's there. Cards like Cultivate, Harrow, and Mind Stone help to be able to play ramp at the peasant level. There aren't as many threatening fatties here as there are in a rare cube either, but there are scary dudes to get out earlier than expected. Artisan of Kozilek and Pelakka Wurm would be two prime examples.
2. Same question as #1, but this time for reanimator decks - is this viable in Peasant?
I don't support reanimator as a strategy in my peasant cube. It's possible, though. Most of the reanimation spells are common or uncommon and there are plenty of Looter effects to get dudes in the graveyard. The archetype is almost exclusively UB in peasant cubes, though their might be a splash for green. It is possible to build a ramp deck with a reanimator underlayment. Both decks want a lot of the same cards.
3. Do cycles have intrinsic value as part of cube design? (For example, please see multicolored - yes, I do have every single guildmage)
I don't think so. People aren't looking to draft a cycle, they're looking to draft some really good cards. It looks pretty and it's nice to say you're running all five or ten cards in a cycle, but not all of those cards are good enough. Some cycles that are virtually the same across the board are fine (Signets, lands), but others fall short (Guildmages). IMO, a card has to prove it's worth regardless of what cycle it may or may not be a part of.
4. Do Blue and Green require a different number of creatures/non-creatures as part of their color identity? Is a completely balanced cube in regards to creatures and non-creatures better/worse/indifferent than the configuration of the cube I have now (Blue is 40% Creatures/60% Non-Creatures, and Green is the reverse, 60% Creatures/40% Non-Creatures).
Yes. Blue and green thrive on their spells and creatures, respectively. The power level of blue's creatures falls way below average not very far into the list of worthy candidates. Its strength is in its spells and its ability to use them to take control of the game. A typical blue deck probably doesn't need more than 5-7 creatures total. Green, on the other hand, lives and dies by the strength of its creatures. Green is generally the provider of the beats. That is to say that in a lot of GX decks, the creatures tend to be abundantly green. The available spells in green are much like the available creatures in blue. After a certain point, they just fall way below the point of even being useful. Its creatures, however, run deep and green has plenty of powerful options there.
5. Is change in cube card configuration/list only a tool to increase the power/accommodate new sets/etc in a current design, or is change in card configuration/list in itself a healthy process for cube design that increases fun for players?
Both. You want your list to be as fun for all drafters involved as it can be and you achieve that by increasing or decreasing the power level as it needs it, swapping card A in for card B, and choosing which archetypes to support and which ones to leave out. As new sets come out and provide with you new options for inclusions, it's healthy to throw some new cards in because it keeps it fresh. I think it makes people look forward to drafting the cube because they want to see how the new cards play in this wildcard format. Not only that, but often times a new card is released that really boosts a specific archetype. If you're already supporting it, then it just helps your cube. If you're not supporting it, then the new card might convince you to begin supporting it. In those corner cases, it often gives your cube a whole new identity.
I am not necessarily looking to make my U/C cube the same as the stereotypical U/C cube you might find on MTGS, and I prefer that.
That's fine, but I don't see the point of posting a list if you're not looking for suggestions on possible adds and cuts. There are plenty of threads around for general cube discussion. If you post your cube on MTGS, you have to expect that some of the MTGS regulars (myself included) will offer up advice that's similar to what I gave you. We'll tell you which cards we think are bad and offer up ideas for better cards to replace them with. If that's not what you're looking for, then I fail to see why you posted up your list in the first place.
I will write up a reason for why I like the Guildmages at some future time, but for now, the quick notes are that they support a more aggressive multicolor that still can be used by either composite color, have utility, and provide a quality size for the cost.
The problem with the guildmages is not that they don't provide a useful ability, it's that they are quite overpriced if you want to take advantage of that ability. Take Golgari Guildmage for instance. Disregarding the costs to activate it, it's exactly what BG wants from a creature. It's cheap, it has a decent body, it pumps up my other dudes and it can bring back my dudes that might die. That sounds awesome. Now when you add in the factor that it's going to cost me five mana to do just one of those things, it's not worth it. In the cube I expect to do a lot more for 4G than just put a +1/+1 counter on a dude. The same goes for the rest of the cycle. Azorius is the only one that's anywhere near being fairly priced and I think even it is borderline.
You can support an aggressive multicolor with plenty of better cards than the guildmages. A lot of the cards I suggested you replace them with are just as aggressive, if not more.
@calibretto: I appreciate advice about which cards particular cube players dislike and like because that gives me ideas as to what my cube in particular can offer to drafters, but our thoughts on the purpose of cube do not align; your cube design philosophy is to create a set where the most powerful interactions can occur in a fun way. While I appreciate that, and endorse it for my regular cube, it isn't the design objective for this cube.
As to your ideas regarding cycles - I understand your point, and it comes directly from your design philosophy, but I don't necessarily agree. A cycle has intrinsic merit because it provides drafters with an understandable pattern, among other positive points, and breaking a cycle can also have deleterious consequences. While I appreciate the ability for the cube to be a high-powered wildcard format, I am attempting to move beyond just powerful individual cards and look at set design in a more holistic way.
Certainly my opinions are subject to change - my experimentation with the Ravnica guildmage cycle is a very literal expression of my desire to try card cycles as a prominent part of cube design; so far, just to let you know of personal experiences of friends and strangers playing my cube, that they have enjoyed the cycle presence in the cube, even if some of the cards (i.e. Simic Guildmage) are not as powerful as other choices in the same color pairs.
I like your point about cube identity, which is something I am focusing on quite a bit right now in my ideas of what cube creation is about. I know that there are multiple wonderful lists (yours and klug's are both quite good) to work off of if you want to have a powerful, fun cube. These cubes are not my cube, however, and I think that a creative identity is an important part of cube design, even if it is often a mostly unstated point.
As far as why I put my cube on MTGS - well, aside from archival purposes, the main reason why I posted the list is so that people could see it and talk about it, including friends that have drafted it or who have worked on it with me before and have not seen the full list. I fully appreciate any advice or commentary, and also fully expect it, but I hold the editor's pen, so to speak.
I agree that the Guildmages are not the most powerful effects that the colors they are in can ultimately provide, but I also don't believe that the most powerful effect automatically makes the best cube. So far they have been a largely positive addition to my cube, and I will continue to test them as a fixture of my Gold section (even if they limit my options for Gold cards somewhat).
Perhaps, then, you should think about making a "limited bombs" cube that's made up of cards that were all stars in their limited formats. That's not necessarily the most powerful of cubes, but it would likely be a lot of fun while still offering up the nostalgic feel that cubes tend to induce. Most of the guildmages were quite good in Ravnica block limited, so a cube like that would welcome those guys. I don't know. That's just an idea I thought I'd throw out there.
I still disagree on cycles, though. It's nice to be drafting a cube and know that the owner is running a cycle of something like the guildmages. So, while I'm drafting, I can expect to see a certain card, just like in regular limited. I like the idea of looking at it in a more holistic way, but that doesn't mean you should be including full cycles that force you to include bad cards.
When I first built my rare cube, I did so with the help of some of my friends. These guys were both big into Kami block limited, Rav block limited, and TSP block limited. A lot of the cards that went into that original list were there because of how well they performed in their respective limited formats. My friends suggested them because they thought them to be great limited bombs and since cube was a limited format, it only seemed natural. We ran things like Kabuto Moth, most of the Guildmage cycle, and Strangling Soot. It was great fun because they had good memories about drafting those cards in the past and most of the people that drafted the cube during that time didn't complain about their inclusion. Then I started to realize that I had more options than just good limited cards. The sky was the limit and I didn't have to include Strangling Soot just because it was good in Time Spiral block limited. I could take it out in favor of something better and more powerful that still remained fun. In the case of Soot, I took it out for Hymn to Tourach.
I get that you don't want to build a peasant cube the power level of mine or klug's, but I think you should still think about the usefulness of certain cards instead of how nice it is to know you're running a full cycle of something.
@All viewers: All of my colors have been sorted by CMC. I haven't sorted artifacts.
@calibretto: A limited bombs cube isn't my goal. Just think of my cube as a Peasant cube with guildmages, and maybe it will go down easier? For now, they aren't getting cut because each of them has utility in specific decks and even though some guildmages individually aren't as powerful as other options, the group as a whole is still strong enough to positively add to the cube.
And isn't that I'm actively trying to make a weaker cube - I am making a different cube. The guildmage cycle is only about 2.5% of the total number of cards in the cube, and most have merit. Azorius, Boros, Dimir, and Selesnya all provide powerful effects that are fairly costed. Orzhov and Gruul can both act as game-ending fireball effects, and Rakdos is aggressive and can generate creatures for the R/B deck. Golgari can permanently pump creatures and regrow creatures (at a high cost), but that's also a fairly strong to have on a 2/2 creature. The weakest two are Simic and Izzet, and even they have places in specific decks (U/W control with aura removal and UR Kiln Fiend/Chandra's Spitfire.dec both come to mind). It's just a matter of different perspective.
@All Viewers: Stepping back from the Guildmages for a second, I think that my Green section could use a little balance. It seems as though I have a few too many 4-drops and not enough 3-drops. Kozilek's Predator is an easy cut, but what are some good 3-mana creatures that I could put in?
For now, they aren't getting cut because each of them has utility in specific decks and even though some guildmages individually aren't as powerful as other options, the group as a whole is still strong enough to positively add to the cube.
I disagree. I don't think including a group of something just for the sake of including a group of something does anything positive for the cube. In the case of the guildmage cycle, there's one that's close to being fairly priced and is cubeable (Azorius). The rest either offer useful abilities, but are significantly over priced to use them, throw in a clause that makes them near unplayable, or just have useless abilities. But, hey, it's your cube. I won't press the issue any more.
As for you green section, I see that you've already looked at my cube. I would recommend anything I'm running at 3cc that you are not: Civic Wayfinder, Imperious Perfect, Nantuko Vigilante (not really a 3-drop, but plays like one), or Uktabi Orangutan/Viridian Shaman. All of those guys have been solid for us.
This is a pretty obvious change, which should bring my Green creature curve down a bit. Still looking at other 4s which I can convert into 3s. Looking to bring in a Viridian Shaman as well, suggestions are appreciated.
Viridian Claw --> Mortarpod
Claw has been pretty good in the aggro vs. aggro matchups, but Mortarpod gives you a nice pinger that can close out games as well as perform creature control, and Claw wasn't thrilling, just a solid 24th card. I think Mortarpod is definitely better than that.
Ins:
Propaganda and Ghostly Prison are inclusions this time around as a measure to give control decks legs against aggro and aggro/midrange decks that are doing extremely well in the cube right now. Traditional control decks are currently a bit hard to draft, so hopefully these will be tools to keep aggro at bay. Likewise, Ray of Command is an extremely powerful card that has been on my on-deck list. I just now was able to acquire a copy.
Lightning Greaves is a strict upgrade to Gorgon Flail, which wasn't making bacon. The card is great at making attacking and blocking unprofitable, but most of the time, creatures are trading, unlike rare cube, where deathtouch is a much better mechanic.
The Predator's Strike removal isn't necessarily finalized yet, but I love Consume Strength effects, and one in plain Green is super fun. We'll see how this works out.
Most of the changes are to help control, but one big concession control made this round of changes is the loss of Ponder. My cube already has Brainstorm, Impulse, and Preordain, and I honestly don't think that Blue should have a high amount of this kind of library manipulation. Four spells was a bit too high - I think three is enough (or maybe even too many...).
Miraculous Recovery and Nezumi Cutthroat are an effort to give reanimation a bigger role to play in archetype construction, but both are just stellar cards regardless.
The guildmage cycle is still proving its worth.
EDIT: I haven't updated the master list, but I will do so tomorrow.
Hey DBB! Long time since I've been to MDV, but great to see you on here.
I like where you're trying to go with this and I understand what you mean about creating a cube whose purpose is not necessarily to be the most powerful. I have a 450-card non-powered "normal" cube already which is listed here on MTGS. However, I'm also designing 2 other cubes, and like you, they're not about power level, they're about creating unique Limited (draft/winston, etc.) environments. As neither is finished, they're not posted yet, but I could post soon-ish for comment and discussion purposes. I think that the key difference here is getting across the concept that you're creating a custom Limited environment, NOT a traditional "cube". You could even call it a 'custom block'. Unfortunately, people associate the term "cube" almost exclusively with the concept of a "list of the best cards" that fit a particular criteria (powered, un-powered, peasant, pauper, etc.). The concept of a custom-designed Limited environment is still in its infancy, I believe.
A couple of comments based on my learning so far:
1. Can you describe your themed cube in 1-2 sentences? I know this sounds silly, but people will tend to default to their own definition and understanding of what something should be. I can see it happening here already - the default assumption was that you're building a cube with "the best" common/uncommon cards, and the initial feedback was based around this assumption. You're creating a custom Limited environment, basically your own custom block, but what is the driving theme?
It can be difficult to summarise your intention, but I believe it's important - Mark Rosewater is always talking about this stuff with block design and I'm beginning to see it's value. As I mentioned, I am designing two themed cubes. The first one I can describe very simply as "Mirrodin Cubed". What does that mean to you? For me, it's basically a cube that will feel somewhat like Mirrodin/Scars of Mirrodin draft, but utilising cards from throughout Magic's history. However, even calling it that can be misleading because some people will assume that I'm just including all of the best artifacts when actually I'm going for the Limited feel. At least the artifact theme comes across fairly easily, and people will expect to see metalcraft and affinity along with some other things like artifact lands and mana myrs, etc. (At a more detailed level, the story behind the card choices is more like Esper invades Naya, for what it's worth - i.e. Blue and Black are mostly 'metal' themed, White is about half/half and Red and Green along with half of White are the 'resistance' - though some 'metal' has leaked into Naya colours already. It's effectively the middle of the war :).
The more difficult concept to get across for me is my other custom Limited environment, which is more flavour-driven than mechanic-driven. It is traditional fantasy, but with some exceptions when it comes to implementation, such as creature types (you can't summon humans, for example) and artifacts (all should be like traditional magic items in RPG's in terms of flavour). But how do I get that idea across? I'm still working on it, but I suggest that if you can identify the theme in 1-2 sentences then it might be easier for others to provide feedback and it will also be easier for players drafting to know what to expect - the worst thing that you can do as a cube designer is to mislead your drafters into expecting certain things that never pay off.
2. What are your rules for card inclusion? No Elves? Only sorcery-speed removal? 50% of the cards must be artifacts? It's difficult for people to provide feedback if they don't know the rules you've set for yourself.
As for some of your other topics of interest:
Ramp: I think that Ramp definitely can be an archetype in this type of cube. Obviously the key pieces are available at common/uncommon, and as Calibretto mentioned, there are definitely fatties to ramp into. I think the key is really the speed of the rest of the cube - how fast does it play out? Can ramp decks get the tools to survive the aggro end of the spectrum (perhaps creature-based mana ramp to enable blocking when necessary)? Will they have too many tools such that aggro can't win? Also, the fatties should be the biggest/best fatties in the environment - i.e. successfully ramping should pay off - in triple scars an Alpha Tyrannax was enough, but you may want cards like Pelakka Wurm. The fatties need to be the biggest and not really fit in most other archetypes. The good news is that you don't need that many.
In terms of exact card numbers, I haven't got to that point yet specifically for ramp in my cubes (I plan to support it in both). However, what I usually do is pick a format that included the thing I'm interested in, analyse the numbers in that format, and model my cube on that. For example, for "Mirrodin Cubed", I model most numbers on triple-scars draft. I do this because I only need numbers and it's easier to get round numbers from triple set draft environments. For my fantasy-themed cube, I've studied M11 draft closely for things like how many removal spells should be available in each colour, how many card draw spells in Blue, etc. For ramp I guess I'd look at Scars draft. Once you have those numbers, you can tweak in either direction, but it works best if you're familiar with the feel of the draft environment you're studying.
Reanimator: I think that some reanimation is fine, but in a cube that isn't highly powerful you need to make sure it's kept in check. I'd tend toward single-use reanimation (e.g. Makeshift Mannequin, Zombify) over the multiple-use enablers typical of powerful cubes (e.g. Recurring Nightmare, Corpse Dance). Also, every card should have some kind of answer, so whatever you're reanimating, your opponent (regardless of colour combination) should have some way to deal with it. As a drafter, I'd hate to know that I can't draft some particular colour combination because it auto-loses to reanimation.
Cycles: I agree with Calibretto on this - I don't personally value cycles very much in cube, even a designed cube like this. Personally, I think that what people want are the tools to build a variety of archetypes. As long as those are provided, I don't think that maintaining a full cycle as published by WotC is necessary or even advantageous. My experience agrees with Calibretto again in that cycles are most often unbalanced - some cards are good and others aren't. Even in a designed cube, you still want the best card for a particular archetype which is at odds with maintaining a cycle.
The exception here for me is colour balancing. I see a lot of people build cubes with unbalanced colours, especially in the multi-colour section, and often unbalanced mana-fixing. This drives me nuts because I feel that drafters need to trust that the environment isn't skewed toward or away from any particular colour or colour combination. Even here, however, I don't see the need to slavishly include cycles. In my normal cube, I'm slowly altering the mana-fixing lands such that while there is a balance between the colour pairs (4 dual lands for each guild), the selection of lands don't have to follow a cycle - the key is to select the most appropriate dual lands for each colour pair. This hasn't been fully implemented, as yet, but it's where I'm heading.
Creature/Spell Balance: I think it's fine to have each colour have its own creature/spell ratio. Wizards does this anyway - MaRo talks about it in some of his "Nuts & Bolts" articles. My normal cube has way over-compensated in Green (42 creatures vs. 18 spells) but as long as it's fun and each card brings something to the table, I think it's valid. In a designed cube, I wouldn't lean quite so extreme, however. I think 40/60 and 60/40 is a fine split to target.
Just a question related to one of Calibretto's comments - is there a better forum for discussing this type of cube?
Just a question related to one of Calibretto's comments - is there a better forum for discussing this type of cube?
I don't believe so. IMO, this is the best cube community on the net and contains some of the most helpful people you could ask for. The problem comes from A.) DBB is running a peasant cube and B.) DBB is running a peasant cube with specific rules about what to include and what not to include. Peasant cubes in general don't receive a lot of traffic on these boards from some reason. They are the Jan Brady of the cube world and play the role of the middle child that gets the least attention. Also cubes with specific rules get less attention here because other posters find it hard to offer up advice because they don't follow those specific guidelines when building their own cube.
1. Can you describe your themed cube in 1-2 sentences? [...]You're creating a custom Limited environment, basically your own custom block, but what is the driving theme?
Sure! The "theme" if you want to call it that, is a Peasant cube developed hollistically - that is to say, where the sum of the total cube is greater than the value of the individual pieces. I want this cube to be a fun and balanced drafting experience that takes into account that every card has its purpose, great or small, and that not all uncommons can be Sol Ring.
2. What are your rules for card inclusion? No Elves? Only sorcery-speed removal? 50% of the cards must be artifacts? It's difficult for people to provide feedback if they don't know the rules you've set for yourself.
There are no rules for card inclusion, other than that some cards are too powerful for this cube, and shouldn't be included (aka Sol Ring and friends). You can see some power bans at the top of the thread.
My thoughts on inclusion for this cube are much looser than other Peasant builders. I have been considering cards like Impaler Shrike which I know most Peasant cubers would not even look at. The Guildmage cycle is another thing most Peasant cubes don't want, but its something that I really love because of the universal utility that these cards provide. Certainly not the most powerful effects at 2 mana for any of those colors, but still good enough, and they lead to a specific kind of drafting and draft experience.
I am trying to go about designing and developing this cube so that it provides a great draft experience that I can modify at will. And I don't feel that this format (Peasant Cube) should naturally be about the most powerful things you can do in Magic, because that's not the goal for Uncommons and Commons in a set.
The development of this cube is an ongoing process.
Cycles: I agree with Calibretto on this - I don't personally value cycles very much in cube, even a designed cube like this. Personally, I think that what people want are the tools to build a variety of archetypes. As long as those are provided, I don't think that maintaining a full cycle as published by WotC is necessary or even advantageous. My experience agrees with Calibretto again in that cycles are most often unbalanced - some cards are good and others aren't. Even in a designed cube, you still want the best card for a particular archetype which is at odds with maintaining a cycle.
I agree in principal that not all Cycles are good. But the development of cycles and their utilization is something that I am trying in this cube, and it will have to be a point that I respectfully disagree with you about.
The exception here for me is colour balancing. I see a lot of people build cubes with unbalanced colours, especially in the multi-colour section, and often unbalanced mana-fixing. This drives me nuts because I feel that drafters need to trust that the environment isn't skewed toward or away from any particular colour or colour combination. Even here, however, I don't see the need to slavishly include cycles. In my normal cube, I'm slowly altering the mana-fixing lands such that while there is a balance between the colour pairs (4 dual lands for each guild), the selection of lands don't have to follow a cycle - the key is to select the most appropriate dual lands for each colour pair. This hasn't been fully implemented, as yet, but it's where I'm heading.
Creature/Spell Balance: I think it's fine to have each colour have its own creature/spell ratio. Wizards does this anyway - MaRo talks about it in some of his "Nuts & Bolts" articles. My normal cube has way over-compensated in Green (42 creatures vs. 18 spells) but as long as it's fun and each card brings something to the table, I think it's valid. In a designed cube, I wouldn't lean quite so extreme, however. I think 40/60 and 60/40 is a fine split to target.
I am still thinking about color, spell, and creature balance. I like the ideas of creature spell split, but as I have been developing, I've broken down the strict lines and made things a little more varied. I'm open to thoughts in this area.
My apologies for the card tagging - I used the [CARDS*] tag, and it sees the asterisks as part of the card name.
Basic Cube Information:
Cards = 392, 50 of each color, 50 multicolored, 40 artifacts, 52 lands ,* = Foil or Painted, && = textless
Theme: Commons and Uncommons Cube
Cards in this cube must have been printed as a common or uncommon
Rares that were once uncommons are legal, all forms of the card are allowed
Snow: No
Ante, etc.: No
"Un": Yes, 2 cards, AWOL, Carnivorous Death Parrot
Proxies: Yes, but unwanted
Powered: Impossible
Banned Cards for Power-Level: Library of Alexandria, Sol Ring, Skullclamp
Banned Cards for Time Constraint: No
Banned Cards for Fun Factor: None so far, but fun is the main reason for the existence of this cube, so it is the primary objective of cube design; there are no sacred cows.
Balanced CMC: No
Average Number of Players: 2-man Cascade/Winston, 4 man 4x11 booster
Draft Frequency: varies
White Creatures:
1 Akrasan Squire
1 Elite Vanguard
1 Goldmeadow Harrier
1 Loam Lion
1 Steppe Lynx
Two-CMC
1 Accorder Paladin
1 Kazandu Blademaster
1 Knight of Meadowgrain
1 Knight of the Holy Nimbus*
1 Kor Firewalker*
1 Sigiled Paladin
1 Soltari Trooper
1 Kor Skyfisher*
1 Wall of Omens*
1 War Priest of Thune
1 White Knight
1 Aven Riftwatcher
1 Ballynock Cohort
1 Descendant of Kiyomaro*
1 Kitsune Blademaster
1 Kor Hookmaster
1 Kor Sanctifiers
1 Stonecloaker
Four-CMC
1 Calciderm*
1 Glimmerpoint Stag
1 Guardian of the Guildpact*
1 Castle Raptors
1 Changeling Hero*
1 Serra Angel*
White Non-Creatures:
1 Condemn
1 Harm's Way*
1 Path to Exile*
1 Sunlance
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Hyena Umbra*
Two-CMC
1 Disenchant
1 Journey to Nowhere
1 Momentary Blink*
1 Pacifism
1 Temporal Isolation
1 Arrest
1 AWOL*
1 Griffin Guide
1 Oblivion Ring*
1 Recumbent Bliss
1 Repel the Darkness*
1 Spectral Procession
1 Wing Shards
1 Armored Ascension*
1 Faith's Fetters
Five-CMC
1 Arrow Volley Trap*
Blue Creatures:
1 Enclave Cryptologist*
Two-CMC
1 Carnivorous Death-Parrot
1 Errant Ephemeron
1 Looter il-Kor
1 Welkin Tern
Three-CMC
1 Aether Adept
1 Kathari Screecher*
1 Man-o'-War*
1 Pestermite
1 Shaper Parasite
1 Spiketail Drakeling
1 Scroll Thief
1 Tideforce Elemental
1 Crookclaw Transmuter
1 Fencer Clique
1 Ninja of the Deep Hours
1 Serum Raker*
Five-CMC
1 Air Elemental*
1 Mulldrifter*
1 Riftwing Cloudskate*
1 Aethersnipe
Blue Non-Creatures:
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder*
1 Preordain
Two-CMC
1 Counterspell*
1 Daze
1 Impulse*
1 Jilt
1 Mana Leak
1 Narcolepsy
1 Negate*
1 Remand*
1 Remove Soul
1 Think Twice
1 Cancel*
1 Capsize
1 Compulsive Research
1 Faerie Trickery
1 Frozen Solid*
Four-CMC
1 Careful Consideration
1 Dismiss
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Foresee
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Rewind
1 Sleep
1 Force of Will
1 Gush
1 Honden of Seeing Winds
1 Jace's Ingenuity*
1 Mind Control*
Black Creatures:
1 Carnophage
1 Fume Spitter
1 Pulse Tracker
1 Vampire Lacerator
Two-CMC
1 Augur of Skulls
1 Bloodthrone Vampire
1 Dauthi Horror
1 Dauthi Slayer
1 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Order of the Ebon Hand
1 Sickle Ripper
1 Surrakar Marauder
1 Withered Wretch
1 Crypt Rats
1 Dauthi Marauder
1 Dread Warlock*
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Hypnotic Specter
1 Liliana's Specter*
1 Necrogen Scudder
1 Nirkana Cutthroat
1 Phyrexian Rager*
1 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Faceless Butcher*
1 Marsh Flitter*
1 Viscera Dragger*
Five-CMC
1 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
1 Shriekmaw
Six-CMC
1 Twisted Abomination*
Black Non-Creatures:
1 Duress
1 Quest for the Gravelord
1 Unearth
Two-CMC
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Doom Blade
1 Go For The Throat
1 Grim Harvest*
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Last Gasp
1 Nameless Inversion
1 Smallpox
1 Smother
1 Hideous End
1 Infest*
1 Oubliette
1 Rend Flesh
Four-CMC
1 Evincar's Justice
1 Makeshift Mannequin
1 Pestilence
1 Ribbons of Night*
Other-CMC
1 Skeletal Scrying*
Red Creatures:
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Jackal Pup*
1 Kird Ape*
Two-CMC
1 Drooling Ogre
1 Ember Hauler
1 Hellspark Elemental
1 Goblin Wardriver
1 Keldon Marauders*
1 Kiln Fiend
1 Plated Geopede
1 Chandra's Spitfire
1 Cunning Sparkmage
1 Ghitu Slinger
1 Hellfire Mongrel
1 Hissing Iguanar
1 Inner-Flame Acolyte
1 Manic Vandal
1 Ronin Houndmaster
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Bladetusk Boar*
1 Dragon Whelp*
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Keldon Champion
1 Viashino Fangtail
Five-CMC
1 Anarchist
1 Gathan Raiders
Six-CMC
1 Firemaw Kavu*
Red Non-Creatures:
1 Burst Lightning
1 Chain Lightning
1 Firebolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Lightning Bolt*
1 Reckless Charge
Two-CMC
1 Arc Trail*
1 Incinerate
1 Pyroclasm
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Arc Lightning
1 Stone Rain
1 Pillage
1 Puncture Blast
1 Rift Bolt
1 Staggershock*
1 Volcanic Fallout
Four-CMC
1 Burn Trail
1 Dead//Gone
1 Cone of Fire
Six-CMC
1 Fireblast
Other-CMC
1 Disintegrate
1 Fireball*
1 Rolling Thunder
Green Creatures
1 Ghazban Ogre
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Llanowar Elves*
1 Pouncing Jaguar
1 Twinblade Slasher
1 Wild Nacatl
Two-CMC
1 Albino Troll
1 Beastbreaker of Bala Ged
1 Dryad Sophisticate*
1 Garruk's Companion
1 Nest Invader
1 River Boa
1 Silhana Ledgewalker
1 Thornweald Archer
1 Wall of Roots*
1 Werebear*
1 Wild Mongrel*
1 Eternal Witness*
1 Hedge Troll*
1 Imperious Perfect
1 Leatherback Baloth*
1 Yavimaya Elder
Four-CMC
1 Blastoderm
1 Briarhorn*
1 Cudgel Troll*
1 Karstoderm*
1 Penumbra Spider
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Acidic Slime*
1 Bellowing Tanglewurm
Seven-CMC
1 Krosan Tusker*
1 Pelakka Wurm
Green Non-Creatures:
1 Rancor
Two-CMC
1 Earthbrawn
1 Edge of Autumn
1 Lignify*
1 Naturalize*
1 Predator's Strike
1 Sprout Swarm*
1 Utopia Vow*
1 Vines of Vastwood
1 Boar Umbra
1 Harrow
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Lead the Stampede
1 Moldervine Cloak
1 Squall
1 Harmonize
Five-CMC
1 Bestial Menace
1 Centaur Glade*
1 Overrun*
Gold Cards (Ordered by Color Pair):
Artifacts:
Lands:
17/1/2011 - (IN)Hag Hedge-Mage - (OUT)Shambling Shell
17/1/2011 - (IN)Duergar Hedge-Mage - (OUT)Squee's Embrace
19/1/2011 - (IN)Albino Troll - (OUT)Cloudcrown Oak
19/1/2011 - (IN)Pouncing Jaguar - (OUT)Timbermaw Larva
23/1/2011 - (IN)Bloodthrone Vampire - (OUT)Nantuko Husk
23/1/2011 - (IN)Pulse Tracker - (OUT)Innocent Blood
23/1/2011 - (IN)Mesmeric Fiend - (OUT)Reassembling Skeleton
23/1/2011 - (IN)Guul Draz Vampire - (OUT)Tendrils of Corruption
23/1/2011 - (IN)Black Knight - (OUT)Terror
23/1/2011 - (IN)Surrakar Marauder - (OUT)Sudden Death
23/1/2011 - (IN)Wing Shards - (OUT)Devouring Light
23/1/2011 - (IN)Kazandu Blademaster - (OUT)Judge Unworthy
23/1/2011 - (IN)Blade of the Sixth Pride - (OUT)Dawn Charm
23/1/2011 - (IN)Changeling Hero - (OUT)Celestial Purge
23/1/2011 - (IN)Sigiled Paladin - (OUT)Cessation
23/1/2011 - (IN)Manic Vandal - (OUT)Magma Spray
23/1/2011 - (IN)Pelakka Wurm - (OUT)Jungle Weaver
23/1/2011 - (IN)Bellowing Tanglewurm - (OUT)Entangling Vines
23/1/2011 - (IN)Riftwing Cloudskate - (OUT)Into the Roil
26/1/2011 - (IN)Hedge Troll (Move to Green) - (OUT)Giant Dustwasp
26/1/2011 - (IN)Selesnya Guildmage - (OUT)Hedge Troll (Moved to Green)
26/1/2011 - (IN)Azorius Guildmage - (OUT)Silver Drake
26/1/2011 - (IN)Boros Guildmage - (OUT)Goblin Legionaire
26/1/2011 - (IN)Dimir Guildmage - (OUT)Cavern Harpy
26/1/2011 - (IN)Pillage - (OUT)Seal of Fire
26/1/2011 - (IN)Gruul Guildmage - (OUT)Horned Kavu
27/1/2011 - (IN)Ashenmoor Gouger - (OUT)Lava Zombie
27/1/2011 - (IN)Orzhov Guildmage - (OUT)Blind Hunter
27/1/2011 - (IN)Rakdos Guildmage - (OUT)Kulrath Knight
27/1/2011 - (IN)Izzet Guildmage - (OUT)Noggle Bridgebreaker
27/1/2011 - (IN)Golgari Guildmage - (OUT)Cankerous Thirst
27/1/2011 - (IN)Simic Guildmage - (OUT)Gaea's Skyfolk
27/1/2011 - (IN)NOTHING - (OUT)Tinder Farm
27/1/2011 - (IN)NOTHING - (OUT)Irrigation Ditch
27/1/2011 - (IN)NOTHING - (OUT)Geothermal Crevice
27/1/2011 - (IN)NOTHING - (OUT)Sulfur Vent
27/1/2011 - (IN)NOTHING - (OUT)Ancient Spring
27/1/2011 - (IN)Joraga Treespeaker - (OUT)Citanul Woodreaders
29/1/2011 - (IN)Lead the Stampede - (OUT)Gift of the Gargantuan
29/1/2011 - (IN)Keldon Champion - Apparently missing a Red card
29/1/2011 - (IN)Goblin Wardriver - (OUT)Brimstone Mage
29/1/2011 - (IN)Accorder Paladin - (OUT)Blade of the Sixth Pride
29/1/2011 - (IN)Go For the Throat - (OUT)Eyeblight's Ending
29/1/2011 - (IN)Barter in Blood - (OUT)Rend Flesh
29/1/2011 - (IN)Boar Umbra - (OUT)Aggressive Urge
29/1/2011 - (IN)Rupture Spire* - (OUT)NOTHING
29/1/2011 - (IN)Zoetic Cavern* - (OUT)NOTHING
29/1/2011 - (IN)Trygon Predator - (OUT)Assault Zeppelid
29/1/2011 - (IN)Su-Chi - (OUT)NOTHING
29/1/2011 - (IN)Juggernaut - (OUT)NOTHING
29/1/2011 - (IN)Mask of Memory - (OUT)NOTHING
29/1/2011 - (IN)Veridian Claw - (OUT)NOTHING
29/1/2011 - (IN)Psychatog - (OUT)Wasp Lancer
29/1/2011 - (IN)Tidehollow Sculler - (OUT)Unmake
1/2/2011 - (IN)Guardian of the Guildpact - (OUT)Kabira Vendicator
2/2/2011 - (IN)Skeletal Scrying - (OUT)Sign in Blood
2/2/2011 - (IN)Cancel - (OUT)NOTHING
2/2/2011 - (IN)Firemaw Kavu - (OUT)NOTHING
2/2/2011 - (IN)Werebear - (OUT)NOTHING
2/2/2011 - (IN)Hyena Umbra - (OUT)NOTHING
2/2/2011 - (IN)Oubeliette - (OUT)NOTHING
14/2/2011 - (IN)Krosan Tusker - (OUT)Borderland Ranger
14/2/2011 - (IN)Hungry Sprigan - (OUT)Karstoderm
14/2/2011 - (IN)Centaur Glade - (OUT)Hidden Spider
14/2/2011 - (IN)Icy Manipulator - (OUT)NOTHING
14/2/2011 - (IN)Ribbons of Night - (OUT)Ichor Slick
31/3/2011 - (IN)Briarhorn - (OUT)Sporoloth Ancient
31/3/2011 - (IN)Soul Manipulation - (OUT)Recoil
31/3/2011 - (IN)Bull Cerodon - (OUT)Skyknight Legionnaire
30/4/2011 - (IN)Aethertow - (OUT)Deft Dualist
30/4/2011 - (IN)Serum Raker - (OUT)Wall of Frost
30/4/2011 - (IN)Gorgon Flail - (OUT)Barbed Battlegear
30/4/2011 - (IN)Pierce Strider - (OUT)Prophetic Prism
30/4/2011 - (IN)Marsh Flitter - (OUT)Skinrender
30/4/2011 - (IN)Gruesome Encore - (OUT)Last Gasp
30/4/2011 - (IN)Soltari Trooper - (OUT)Amrou Seeker
30/4/2011 - (IN)Guul Draz Vampire - (OUT)Carnophage
3/5/2011 - (IN)Stone Rain - (OUT)Lash Out
15/5/2011 - Imperious Perfect for Kozilek's Predator
15/5/2011 - Mortarpod for Viridian Claw
While I am always looking to improve my list, I am not looking for blanket recommendations on card switches like I have seen in other cube commentary. Instead, I would prefer a discussion individual cards. I know that my list is different from other lists, and I don't believe that a perfect cube list exists; that is why it is my cube, and why I have made some of the choices I have made.
More importantly than single card discussion, these are the topics I'm considering right now in cube design. Your opinions are appreciated:
---
1. What is the role of ramp in Peasant Cube? Should it be a supported archetype, and if so, what amount of slots in a ~400 card cube should be devoted to that archetype?
2. Same question as #1, but this time for reanimator decks - is this viable in Peasant?
3. Do cycles have intrinsic value as part of cube design? (For example, please see multicolored - yes, I do have every single guildmage)
4. Do Blue and Green require a different number of creatures/non-creatures as part of their color identity? Is a completely balanced cube in regards to creatures and non-creatures better/worse/indifferent than the configuration of the cube I have now (Blue is 40% Creatures/60% Non-Creatures, and Green is the reverse, 60% Creatures/40% Non-Creatures).
5. Is change in cube card configuration/list only a tool to increase the power/accommodate new sets/etc in a current design, or is change in card configuration/list in itself a healthy process for cube design that increases fun for players?
(+) Will add this to the cube once I get a copy.
(~) This is a card that I will consider testing to see if it is any good.
(+) Porcelain Legionaire
(+) Beast Within
(+) Dismember
(~) Wing Splicer
(~) Master Splicer
(~) Deceiver Exarch
(~) Brutalizer Exarch
(~) Entomber Exarch
(~) Act of Aggression
I am interested in all of the common Phyrexian mana creatures (yes even the Black one) although I am only certain that Porcelain Legionnaire is absolutely making it in as of right now.
Just looking at your gold section, I'd recommend these changes:
+ Plumeveil
+ Kiss of the Amesha
- Aethertow
- Vedalken Outlander
+ Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers
- Selesnya Guildmage
+ Gerrard's Verdict
+ Mortify
+ Unmake
- Gwyndilion Hedge-Mage
- Orzhov Guildmage
- Pillory of the Sleepless or Castigate
+ Murderous Redcap
- Rakdos Guildmage
+ Cankerous Thirst
+ Necrogenesis
- Golgari Guildmage
- Hag Hedge-Mage
+ Electrolyze
+ Gelectrode
+ Nucklavee
- Izzet Guildmage
- Noggle Bandit
- Wee Dragonauts
+ Moroii
+ Recoil
- Dimir Guildmage
- Infathom Infiltrator or Soul Manipulation
+ Hull Breach
- Gruul Guildmage
+ Assault Zeppelid or Jungle Barrier
- Simic Guildmage
+ Goblin Legionnaire or Cerodon Yearling
+ Skyknight Legionnaire or Hearthfire Goblin
- Boros Guildmage
- Fire at Will
If you can't tell, I'm not a fan of the Guildmage cycle. Azorius is the only one that's really worthy. The activation costs on these guys is extremely high for the effect and generally, they just aren't worth it. There are better options across the board.
I'd also recommend moving cards like Kird Ape, Loam Lion, and Momentary Blink to their respective gold sections. This is a change I made a long while ago in my rare cube and plan on making with my C/U cube with my NPH update.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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Thanks for your thoughts for my Gold section. As for your suggestions to cut the Guildmage cycle, well, I already said that I wasn't looking for a blanket list of cuts and changes. I am not necessarily looking to make my U/C cube the same as the stereotypical U/C cube you might find on MTGS, and I prefer that.
I will write up a reason for why I like the Guildmages at some future time, but for now, the quick notes are that they support a more aggressive multicolor that still can be used by either composite color, have utility, and provide a quality size for the cost. Their utility is obviously not as great as other individual spells, but something I am exploring now in my cube design is whether or not cycles have a place in cube design. Please see my second post for more things I am considering.
I do admit that there are some Gold cards that really do need an update (Vedalkin Outlander being a great example, still looking for a Kiss of the Amesha to replace it with) So I appreciate the suggestions.
As for the CMC sorting, I will do that when I get a chance.
Ramp can be present in a peasant cube. It's not as abundant in the form of fast mana artifacts like it is in powered cubes, but it's there. Cards like Cultivate, Harrow, and Mind Stone help to be able to play ramp at the peasant level. There aren't as many threatening fatties here as there are in a rare cube either, but there are scary dudes to get out earlier than expected. Artisan of Kozilek and Pelakka Wurm would be two prime examples.
I don't support reanimator as a strategy in my peasant cube. It's possible, though. Most of the reanimation spells are common or uncommon and there are plenty of Looter effects to get dudes in the graveyard. The archetype is almost exclusively UB in peasant cubes, though their might be a splash for green. It is possible to build a ramp deck with a reanimator underlayment. Both decks want a lot of the same cards.
I don't think so. People aren't looking to draft a cycle, they're looking to draft some really good cards. It looks pretty and it's nice to say you're running all five or ten cards in a cycle, but not all of those cards are good enough. Some cycles that are virtually the same across the board are fine (Signets, lands), but others fall short (Guildmages). IMO, a card has to prove it's worth regardless of what cycle it may or may not be a part of.
Yes. Blue and green thrive on their spells and creatures, respectively. The power level of blue's creatures falls way below average not very far into the list of worthy candidates. Its strength is in its spells and its ability to use them to take control of the game. A typical blue deck probably doesn't need more than 5-7 creatures total. Green, on the other hand, lives and dies by the strength of its creatures. Green is generally the provider of the beats. That is to say that in a lot of GX decks, the creatures tend to be abundantly green. The available spells in green are much like the available creatures in blue. After a certain point, they just fall way below the point of even being useful. Its creatures, however, run deep and green has plenty of powerful options there.
Both. You want your list to be as fun for all drafters involved as it can be and you achieve that by increasing or decreasing the power level as it needs it, swapping card A in for card B, and choosing which archetypes to support and which ones to leave out. As new sets come out and provide with you new options for inclusions, it's healthy to throw some new cards in because it keeps it fresh. I think it makes people look forward to drafting the cube because they want to see how the new cards play in this wildcard format. Not only that, but often times a new card is released that really boosts a specific archetype. If you're already supporting it, then it just helps your cube. If you're not supporting it, then the new card might convince you to begin supporting it. In those corner cases, it often gives your cube a whole new identity.
That's fine, but I don't see the point of posting a list if you're not looking for suggestions on possible adds and cuts. There are plenty of threads around for general cube discussion. If you post your cube on MTGS, you have to expect that some of the MTGS regulars (myself included) will offer up advice that's similar to what I gave you. We'll tell you which cards we think are bad and offer up ideas for better cards to replace them with. If that's not what you're looking for, then I fail to see why you posted up your list in the first place.
The problem with the guildmages is not that they don't provide a useful ability, it's that they are quite overpriced if you want to take advantage of that ability. Take Golgari Guildmage for instance. Disregarding the costs to activate it, it's exactly what BG wants from a creature. It's cheap, it has a decent body, it pumps up my other dudes and it can bring back my dudes that might die. That sounds awesome. Now when you add in the factor that it's going to cost me five mana to do just one of those things, it's not worth it. In the cube I expect to do a lot more for 4G than just put a +1/+1 counter on a dude. The same goes for the rest of the cycle. Azorius is the only one that's anywhere near being fairly priced and I think even it is borderline.
You can support an aggressive multicolor with plenty of better cards than the guildmages. A lot of the cards I suggested you replace them with are just as aggressive, if not more.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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As to your ideas regarding cycles - I understand your point, and it comes directly from your design philosophy, but I don't necessarily agree. A cycle has intrinsic merit because it provides drafters with an understandable pattern, among other positive points, and breaking a cycle can also have deleterious consequences. While I appreciate the ability for the cube to be a high-powered wildcard format, I am attempting to move beyond just powerful individual cards and look at set design in a more holistic way.
Certainly my opinions are subject to change - my experimentation with the Ravnica guildmage cycle is a very literal expression of my desire to try card cycles as a prominent part of cube design; so far, just to let you know of personal experiences of friends and strangers playing my cube, that they have enjoyed the cycle presence in the cube, even if some of the cards (i.e. Simic Guildmage) are not as powerful as other choices in the same color pairs.
I like your point about cube identity, which is something I am focusing on quite a bit right now in my ideas of what cube creation is about. I know that there are multiple wonderful lists (yours and klug's are both quite good) to work off of if you want to have a powerful, fun cube. These cubes are not my cube, however, and I think that a creative identity is an important part of cube design, even if it is often a mostly unstated point.
As far as why I put my cube on MTGS - well, aside from archival purposes, the main reason why I posted the list is so that people could see it and talk about it, including friends that have drafted it or who have worked on it with me before and have not seen the full list. I fully appreciate any advice or commentary, and also fully expect it, but I hold the editor's pen, so to speak.
I agree that the Guildmages are not the most powerful effects that the colors they are in can ultimately provide, but I also don't believe that the most powerful effect automatically makes the best cube. So far they have been a largely positive addition to my cube, and I will continue to test them as a fixture of my Gold section (even if they limit my options for Gold cards somewhat).
I still disagree on cycles, though. It's nice to be drafting a cube and know that the owner is running a cycle of something like the guildmages. So, while I'm drafting, I can expect to see a certain card, just like in regular limited. I like the idea of looking at it in a more holistic way, but that doesn't mean you should be including full cycles that force you to include bad cards.
When I first built my rare cube, I did so with the help of some of my friends. These guys were both big into Kami block limited, Rav block limited, and TSP block limited. A lot of the cards that went into that original list were there because of how well they performed in their respective limited formats. My friends suggested them because they thought them to be great limited bombs and since cube was a limited format, it only seemed natural. We ran things like Kabuto Moth, most of the Guildmage cycle, and Strangling Soot. It was great fun because they had good memories about drafting those cards in the past and most of the people that drafted the cube during that time didn't complain about their inclusion. Then I started to realize that I had more options than just good limited cards. The sky was the limit and I didn't have to include Strangling Soot just because it was good in Time Spiral block limited. I could take it out in favor of something better and more powerful that still remained fun. In the case of Soot, I took it out for Hymn to Tourach.
I get that you don't want to build a peasant cube the power level of mine or klug's, but I think you should still think about the usefulness of certain cards instead of how nice it is to know you're running a full cycle of something.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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@calibretto: A limited bombs cube isn't my goal. Just think of my cube as a Peasant cube with guildmages, and maybe it will go down easier? For now, they aren't getting cut because each of them has utility in specific decks and even though some guildmages individually aren't as powerful as other options, the group as a whole is still strong enough to positively add to the cube.
And isn't that I'm actively trying to make a weaker cube - I am making a different cube. The guildmage cycle is only about 2.5% of the total number of cards in the cube, and most have merit. Azorius, Boros, Dimir, and Selesnya all provide powerful effects that are fairly costed. Orzhov and Gruul can both act as game-ending fireball effects, and Rakdos is aggressive and can generate creatures for the R/B deck. Golgari can permanently pump creatures and regrow creatures (at a high cost), but that's also a fairly strong to have on a 2/2 creature. The weakest two are Simic and Izzet, and even they have places in specific decks (U/W control with aura removal and UR Kiln Fiend/Chandra's Spitfire.dec both come to mind). It's just a matter of different perspective.
@All Viewers: Stepping back from the Guildmages for a second, I think that my Green section could use a little balance. It seems as though I have a few too many 4-drops and not enough 3-drops. Kozilek's Predator is an easy cut, but what are some good 3-mana creatures that I could put in?
I disagree. I don't think including a group of something just for the sake of including a group of something does anything positive for the cube. In the case of the guildmage cycle, there's one that's close to being fairly priced and is cubeable (Azorius). The rest either offer useful abilities, but are significantly over priced to use them, throw in a clause that makes them near unplayable, or just have useless abilities. But, hey, it's your cube. I won't press the issue any more.
As for you green section, I see that you've already looked at my cube. I would recommend anything I'm running at 3cc that you are not: Civic Wayfinder, Imperious Perfect, Nantuko Vigilante (not really a 3-drop, but plays like one), or Uktabi Orangutan/Viridian Shaman. All of those guys have been solid for us.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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Kozilek's Predator --> Imperious Perfect
This is a pretty obvious change, which should bring my Green creature curve down a bit. Still looking at other 4s which I can convert into 3s. Looking to bring in a Viridian Shaman as well, suggestions are appreciated.
Viridian Claw --> Mortarpod
Claw has been pretty good in the aggro vs. aggro matchups, but Mortarpod gives you a nice pinger that can close out games as well as perform creature control, and Claw wasn't thrilling, just a solid 24th card. I think Mortarpod is definitely better than that.
6/7/2011 Vedalken Outlander --> Kiss of the Amesha
6/7/2011 Sigiled Paladin --> Porcelain Legionnaire
6/7/2011 Predator's Stike --> Leeching Bite*
10/7/2011 Surrakar Marauder --> Nezumi Graverobber
10/7/2011 Arrest --> Ghostly Prison
10/7/2011 Condemn --> Miraculous Recovery
10/7/2011 Forked Bolt --> Breath of Darigaaz
10/7/2011 Viashino Fangtail --> Furnace Whelp
10/7/2011 Stonecloaker --> Mother of Runes
10/7/2011 Cancel --> Spell Crumple
10/7/2011 Ponder --> Propaganda
10/7/2011 Think Twice --> Ray of Command
10/7/2011 Noggle Bandit --> Nucklavee
10/7/2011 Gwyllion Hedge-Mage --> Mortify
10/7/2011 Hag Hedge-Mage --> Necrogenesis
10/7/2011 Gorgon Flail --> Lightning Greaves
Ins:
Propaganda and Ghostly Prison are inclusions this time around as a measure to give control decks legs against aggro and aggro/midrange decks that are doing extremely well in the cube right now. Traditional control decks are currently a bit hard to draft, so hopefully these will be tools to keep aggro at bay. Likewise, Ray of Command is an extremely powerful card that has been on my on-deck list. I just now was able to acquire a copy.
Lightning Greaves is a strict upgrade to Gorgon Flail, which wasn't making bacon. The card is great at making attacking and blocking unprofitable, but most of the time, creatures are trading, unlike rare cube, where deathtouch is a much better mechanic.
The Predator's Strike removal isn't necessarily finalized yet, but I love Consume Strength effects, and one in plain Green is super fun. We'll see how this works out.
Most of the changes are to help control, but one big concession control made this round of changes is the loss of Ponder. My cube already has Brainstorm, Impulse, and Preordain, and I honestly don't think that Blue should have a high amount of this kind of library manipulation. Four spells was a bit too high - I think three is enough (or maybe even too many...).
Miraculous Recovery and Nezumi Cutthroat are an effort to give reanimation a bigger role to play in archetype construction, but both are just stellar cards regardless.
The guildmage cycle is still proving its worth.
EDIT: I haven't updated the master list, but I will do so tomorrow.
I like where you're trying to go with this and I understand what you mean about creating a cube whose purpose is not necessarily to be the most powerful. I have a 450-card non-powered "normal" cube already which is listed here on MTGS. However, I'm also designing 2 other cubes, and like you, they're not about power level, they're about creating unique Limited (draft/winston, etc.) environments. As neither is finished, they're not posted yet, but I could post soon-ish for comment and discussion purposes. I think that the key difference here is getting across the concept that you're creating a custom Limited environment, NOT a traditional "cube". You could even call it a 'custom block'. Unfortunately, people associate the term "cube" almost exclusively with the concept of a "list of the best cards" that fit a particular criteria (powered, un-powered, peasant, pauper, etc.). The concept of a custom-designed Limited environment is still in its infancy, I believe.
A couple of comments based on my learning so far:
1. Can you describe your themed cube in 1-2 sentences? I know this sounds silly, but people will tend to default to their own definition and understanding of what something should be. I can see it happening here already - the default assumption was that you're building a cube with "the best" common/uncommon cards, and the initial feedback was based around this assumption. You're creating a custom Limited environment, basically your own custom block, but what is the driving theme?
It can be difficult to summarise your intention, but I believe it's important - Mark Rosewater is always talking about this stuff with block design and I'm beginning to see it's value. As I mentioned, I am designing two themed cubes. The first one I can describe very simply as "Mirrodin Cubed". What does that mean to you? For me, it's basically a cube that will feel somewhat like Mirrodin/Scars of Mirrodin draft, but utilising cards from throughout Magic's history. However, even calling it that can be misleading because some people will assume that I'm just including all of the best artifacts when actually I'm going for the Limited feel. At least the artifact theme comes across fairly easily, and people will expect to see metalcraft and affinity along with some other things like artifact lands and mana myrs, etc. (At a more detailed level, the story behind the card choices is more like Esper invades Naya, for what it's worth - i.e. Blue and Black are mostly 'metal' themed, White is about half/half and Red and Green along with half of White are the 'resistance' - though some 'metal' has leaked into Naya colours already. It's effectively the middle of the war :).
The more difficult concept to get across for me is my other custom Limited environment, which is more flavour-driven than mechanic-driven. It is traditional fantasy, but with some exceptions when it comes to implementation, such as creature types (you can't summon humans, for example) and artifacts (all should be like traditional magic items in RPG's in terms of flavour). But how do I get that idea across? I'm still working on it, but I suggest that if you can identify the theme in 1-2 sentences then it might be easier for others to provide feedback and it will also be easier for players drafting to know what to expect - the worst thing that you can do as a cube designer is to mislead your drafters into expecting certain things that never pay off.
2. What are your rules for card inclusion? No Elves? Only sorcery-speed removal? 50% of the cards must be artifacts? It's difficult for people to provide feedback if they don't know the rules you've set for yourself.
As for some of your other topics of interest:
Ramp: I think that Ramp definitely can be an archetype in this type of cube. Obviously the key pieces are available at common/uncommon, and as Calibretto mentioned, there are definitely fatties to ramp into. I think the key is really the speed of the rest of the cube - how fast does it play out? Can ramp decks get the tools to survive the aggro end of the spectrum (perhaps creature-based mana ramp to enable blocking when necessary)? Will they have too many tools such that aggro can't win? Also, the fatties should be the biggest/best fatties in the environment - i.e. successfully ramping should pay off - in triple scars an Alpha Tyrannax was enough, but you may want cards like Pelakka Wurm. The fatties need to be the biggest and not really fit in most other archetypes. The good news is that you don't need that many.
In terms of exact card numbers, I haven't got to that point yet specifically for ramp in my cubes (I plan to support it in both). However, what I usually do is pick a format that included the thing I'm interested in, analyse the numbers in that format, and model my cube on that. For example, for "Mirrodin Cubed", I model most numbers on triple-scars draft. I do this because I only need numbers and it's easier to get round numbers from triple set draft environments. For my fantasy-themed cube, I've studied M11 draft closely for things like how many removal spells should be available in each colour, how many card draw spells in Blue, etc. For ramp I guess I'd look at Scars draft. Once you have those numbers, you can tweak in either direction, but it works best if you're familiar with the feel of the draft environment you're studying.
Reanimator: I think that some reanimation is fine, but in a cube that isn't highly powerful you need to make sure it's kept in check. I'd tend toward single-use reanimation (e.g. Makeshift Mannequin, Zombify) over the multiple-use enablers typical of powerful cubes (e.g. Recurring Nightmare, Corpse Dance). Also, every card should have some kind of answer, so whatever you're reanimating, your opponent (regardless of colour combination) should have some way to deal with it. As a drafter, I'd hate to know that I can't draft some particular colour combination because it auto-loses to reanimation.
Cycles: I agree with Calibretto on this - I don't personally value cycles very much in cube, even a designed cube like this. Personally, I think that what people want are the tools to build a variety of archetypes. As long as those are provided, I don't think that maintaining a full cycle as published by WotC is necessary or even advantageous. My experience agrees with Calibretto again in that cycles are most often unbalanced - some cards are good and others aren't. Even in a designed cube, you still want the best card for a particular archetype which is at odds with maintaining a cycle.
The exception here for me is colour balancing. I see a lot of people build cubes with unbalanced colours, especially in the multi-colour section, and often unbalanced mana-fixing. This drives me nuts because I feel that drafters need to trust that the environment isn't skewed toward or away from any particular colour or colour combination. Even here, however, I don't see the need to slavishly include cycles. In my normal cube, I'm slowly altering the mana-fixing lands such that while there is a balance between the colour pairs (4 dual lands for each guild), the selection of lands don't have to follow a cycle - the key is to select the most appropriate dual lands for each colour pair. This hasn't been fully implemented, as yet, but it's where I'm heading.
Creature/Spell Balance: I think it's fine to have each colour have its own creature/spell ratio. Wizards does this anyway - MaRo talks about it in some of his "Nuts & Bolts" articles. My normal cube has way over-compensated in Green (42 creatures vs. 18 spells) but as long as it's fun and each card brings something to the table, I think it's valid. In a designed cube, I wouldn't lean quite so extreme, however. I think 40/60 and 60/40 is a fine split to target.
Just a question related to one of Calibretto's comments - is there a better forum for discussing this type of cube?
Cheers,
Amadeus
My Cube
My Blog
I don't believe so. IMO, this is the best cube community on the net and contains some of the most helpful people you could ask for. The problem comes from A.) DBB is running a peasant cube and B.) DBB is running a peasant cube with specific rules about what to include and what not to include. Peasant cubes in general don't receive a lot of traffic on these boards from some reason. They are the Jan Brady of the cube world and play the role of the middle child that gets the least attention. Also cubes with specific rules get less attention here because other posters find it hard to offer up advice because they don't follow those specific guidelines when building their own cube.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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Hey Amadeus! It's been a long time. Sorry for the delayed response.
Sure! The "theme" if you want to call it that, is a Peasant cube developed hollistically - that is to say, where the sum of the total cube is greater than the value of the individual pieces. I want this cube to be a fun and balanced drafting experience that takes into account that every card has its purpose, great or small, and that not all uncommons can be Sol Ring.
There are no rules for card inclusion, other than that some cards are too powerful for this cube, and shouldn't be included (aka Sol Ring and friends). You can see some power bans at the top of the thread.
My thoughts on inclusion for this cube are much looser than other Peasant builders. I have been considering cards like Impaler Shrike which I know most Peasant cubers would not even look at. The Guildmage cycle is another thing most Peasant cubes don't want, but its something that I really love because of the universal utility that these cards provide. Certainly not the most powerful effects at 2 mana for any of those colors, but still good enough, and they lead to a specific kind of drafting and draft experience.
I am trying to go about designing and developing this cube so that it provides a great draft experience that I can modify at will. And I don't feel that this format (Peasant Cube) should naturally be about the most powerful things you can do in Magic, because that's not the goal for Uncommons and Commons in a set.
The development of this cube is an ongoing process.
I agree in principal that not all Cycles are good. But the development of cycles and their utilization is something that I am trying in this cube, and it will have to be a point that I respectfully disagree with you about.
I am still thinking about color, spell, and creature balance. I like the ideas of creature spell split, but as I have been developing, I've broken down the strict lines and made things a little more varied. I'm open to thoughts in this area.