[EDH]Karn, Silver Golem

[Pringlesman]

I recently started playing EDH. And I decided to go with the Colorless General Karn for extra Pimp points. I know the list isn't even close to being right yet. I need to pick up an Eye of Ugin/Eldrazi Temple/eldrazi brothers for instance. But I was hoping to get some advice on my current list. It was made with stuff I had laying around and a few things I've traded for. I really haven't started buying cards specifically for the deck yet besides both the Karns.


EDH: Karn, Silver Golem

Deck

General 01 Karn, Silver Golem [a] Planeswalker 02 Karn Liberated [a] Creatures 03 Archbound Reclaimer 04 Kuldotha Forgemaster 05 VOltaic Construct 06 Copper Gnomes 07 Wurmcoil Engine 08 Sundering Titan [a] 09 Steel Hellkite [a] 10 Duplicant [a] 11 Myr Battlesphere 12 Lodestone Golem 13 Grim Poppet [f] 14 Thopther Assembly 15 Triskelion [f] 16 Darksteel Colossus 17 Palladium Myr 18 Scarecrone Manafacts 19 Darksteel Ingot 20 Dreamstone Hedron 21 Blinkmoth Urn 22 Basalt Monolith [a] 23 Mox Diamond [a] 24 Sisay's Ring 25 Worn Powerstone [a] 26 Mind Stone 27 Mana Vault [a] 28 Everflowing Chalice [a] 29 Grim MOnlith [a] 30 Sol Ring [a] 31 Gilded Lotus [a] Card Quality 32 Expedition Map 33 Eye of Ugin 34 Sensei's Divining Top [a] 35 Planar Portal [a] 36 Crystal Ball [a] 37 Scroll Rack 38 Serum Tank 39 Memory Jar Removal 40 Ratchet Bomb 41 Contatgion Clasp 42 Contagion Engine 43 Ensnaring Bridge 44 Serrated Arrows 45 Brittle Effigy 46 Predator, Flagship 47 Spine of Ish Sah 48 Oblivion Stone 49 Powder Keg 50 Nevinyrral's Disk Miscellaneous 51 Icy Manipulator [f] 52 Goblin Cannon 53 Voltaic Key [a] 54 LIghtning Greaves [f] 55 Mindslaver 56 Loxodon Warhammer 57 Sculpting Steel 58 Crucible of Worlds 59 Winter Orb 60 Clock of Omens 61 Erratic Portal 62 Null Brooch 63 Zuran Orb [a]

Lands 64 Maze of Ith 65 Quicksand 66 Petrified Field [a] 67 Crystal Vein 68 Desert 69 Dread Statuary 70 Glimmerpost 71 Cloudpost [f] 72 Urza's Mine [a] 73 Urza's Tower [a] 74 Urza's Power Plant [a] 75 Urza's Factory 76 Wasteland 77 Gargoyle Castle 78 Blinkmoth Nexus [a] 79 Dust Bowl [a] 80 Phyrexia's Core [a] 81 Blinkmoth Well 82 Tectonic Edge 83 Ancient Tomb 84 Springjack Pasture 85 Strip Mine [a] 86 Zoetic Cavern [f] 87 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai 88 Mishra's Factory [a] 89 Deserted Temple 90 Mystifying Maze 91 Ghost Quarter 92 Darksteel Citadel [a] 93 Stalking Stones 94 Temple of the False God [a] 95 Blasted Landscape 96 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea 97 Esper Panorama 98 Grixis Panorama 99 Bant Panorama 00 Naya Panorama

[f]=Foil
[a]=Altered


Cuts I want to make based off the three 1v1 player games I've gotten to play thus far.

Deck
Cards I want to cut 1 Grim Poppet 1 Thopter Asembly 1 Darksteel Colossus 1 Contagion Engine (Will do this after I cut Pentavus, and Grim Poppet) 1 Contagion Clasp 1 Serrated Arrows 1 Icy Manipulator 1 Loxodon Warhammer 1 Zuran Orb (Only playing because I already had an altered one) 1 Cloudpost 4 Panoramas	Cards I want to get 1 Inkmoth Nexus 1 All is Dust 1 Blinkmoth's Collosus 1 Mutavault 1 Thran Dynamo 1 Temple of Eldrazi 1 Ulamog the Crusher 1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truths

31% of my deck is altered, now to do the other 69 cards.

Spoiler:

[Star Slayer]

Congratulations on your decision to go colorless. Those decks are a nice variation from all the "normal" Commander decks. However, you do know that you create a serious paradox once you have both Karn, Silver Golem and Karn Liberated on the battlefield?

And wow, those are some pretty cool alters! You did them yourself, right?

I have to say that your list of planned card changes is a bit hard to read. Most of them seem to be cuts, but then you mention that you want to get a Thran Dynamo (Which you absolutely should! I see it as an absolute staple in all colorless Commander decks.).
Also, I'm not sure if you mean that you want to cut Serrated Arrows or if you mean that it's a card that would still work with your proliferation cards. I'd cut it if you cut those engine cards. As long as you keep those, the Arrows are reasonable. And Grim Poppet and Pentavus have been good in my Ulamog deck, even after I've cut the proliferation engines. The former is shooting utility creatures left and right and the latter blocks nontrampling attackers indefinitely.
And do you mean that you want to cut Icy Manipulator? That's a decent card, too.

[Pringlesman]

Edited my first post to make it clearer what cards I want to add and cut.

Icy Manipulator is good, but tapping one permenant down in a multiplayer game a turn isn't all that amazing.

Updated the OP with the current alters.

[Preturbed]

I posted my own Karn deck here this morning. Here it is.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=336385

[Antknee42]

I feel like you want a Vesuva, so you can copy a post/urzatron piece for more mana.

Also, Metalworker?

-AA

[Pringlesman]

I need to find a copy of Vesuva. Sadly they are like 7.50 + s/h on ebay and I feel like I have better places to start spending my money.

I have a metalworker on my desk at home. Sadly the card is banned in edh. Lame.

[ruleofthumb]

Welcome, fellow monobrown player! Few are brave enough to build a deck like this, and I'm glad you've taken the challenge in doing so. Especially for your first commander deck! Brave soul.

Getting the correct lands is really a pain in the ass. The panorama cycle are pretty much basics in a deck like this. Your lands should do more than just tap for . I have a link to a primer for my Ulamog deck in my sig. Feel free to check it out. While the general may be different; its still within the same premise.

Otherwise, good job on a starting decklist. Good luck in the future!

[Antknee42]

How is Metalworker banned? It's just a dude...

Lame indeed.

-AA

[ruleofthumb]

Metalworker is an insane mana battery. Turn two or three, you're tapping him for anywhere between 6-14 mana. That doesn't seem very fair, does it?

[Pringlesman]

1. It's a 2 toughness artifact creature, someone should be able to kill this by turn 3-4.
2. It requires you to build your deck around it.
3. It's ability gets worse as you use it more (less artifacts in hand)
4. Without staff of domination it's not a huge deal.
5. It makes little sense for Metalworker to be banned but rofellos to be fair game.

[Areys]

Originally Posted by Pringlesman

1. It's a 2 toughness artifact creature, someone should be able to kill this by turn 3-4.
2. It requires you to build your deck around it.
3. It's ability gets worse as you use it more (less artifacts in hand)
4. Without staff of domination it's not a huge deal.
5. It makes little sense for Metalworker to be banned but rofellos to be fair game.

1. The toughness isn't the point. There are things opponents are trying to do on their early turns that sometimes make this early turns creature insane (Dropping him on turn 2 with Lightning Greeves? Seems fair right?)
2. It does NOT require you to build anything around it. He goes in a Karn deck and instantly becomes the best card you can draw.
3. It does not get worse the more you use it. Having 1 card in hand makes this very inexpensive creature tap for 2 mana at the least! It is a scaling Sol Ring in a sense. Late game or early game your deck will be able to have many cards in hand via draw engines and such. He will never tap for less than 2 but AVERAGES 4 mana on a single dude with NO drawback!
4. Staff of Domination is busted in a completely different world as it may be played in ANY EDH deck and be useful. I hate comparing cards that are banned saying "this one is or isn't banned so blah blah blah..." Stop for a moment and think about the individual card and the interactions you can do with IT and do not use other lesser or greater examples to come to a conclusion of fairness.
5. I already expressed my concerns about comparing 2 cards to justify another however I will play this little game for a brief moment.
a) Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, Costs double and adds 1 mana for each forest you control. Metalworker Costs and taps for for each artifact card you reveal from your hand. Simply put on turn 3 when you tap Rofellos you make about 3-4 mana. Mono brown decks have a LOT of ramp in them and because you are never off the colors of mana you need you typically play the Metalworker on turn 2 as well. If you did then you are going to generate about 4-8 mana on turn 3 with Metalworker.
b) The dependance of having FORESTS to make Rofellos powerful only applies to MONO G decks because if you ran him in a deck that was 2-3 colors your actual amount of forest in play when you play him early (which is where you get the most value from mana ramp cards like him) is going to be much less significant. The opposite is true for Metalworker. What you have in play is virtually irrelevant and all that matters is drawing artifacts which who would guess is all you can draw outside of lands. If you do not have artifacts in hand to make him useful it simply means you have already played everything out of your hand and are in topdeck mode.

In short the TLDR version:
Metalworker and Rofellos are NOT functionally the same and like almost any cards should not be used a evidence to ban or unban one another.
Metalworker is too powerful to be legal and even players who DO want to play with him would agree that the format is better off with him staying banned.

[Pringlesman]

1. The toughness isn't the point. There are things opponents are trying to do on their early turns that sometimes make this early turns creature insane (Dropping him on turn 2 with Lightning Greeves? Seems fair right?)
2. It does NOT require you to build anything around it. He goes in a Karn deck and instantly becomes the best card you can draw.

Why isn't it's toughness an issue? It's not terrible to require people to play creature/artifact removal.
How is playing a deck entirley made up of artifacts not building around it?

Got a few cards last night

+ Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
+ Eye of Ugin
+ Ratchet Bomb

- Jund Panorama
- Pentavus
- Pristine Talisman

Also got a non foil Urza's Factory. It will be the next card I alter when I'm done with all my commissions.

[mgrinshpon]

Why not Darksteel Forge? You can obviously run something like that with no problem.

[hi-val]

I'm trying out Karn right now, too. I haven't put in the Mycosynth Lattice/Forge business, since they're expensive to purchase and Karn seems to do fine without them.

I suggest some card drawing over card selection. Both Scroll Rack and Top disappointed me when I played them, since you lack realistic shuffle effects. Tower of Fortunes and Urza's Blueprints are both solid (and seriously, it's worth running both).

Scorched Ruins is incredible, even in the face of LD.

I have also gotten a surprising amount of mileage out of Steel Overseer. It is low on the curve, which is good because Karn lacks cheap drops. One situation had me animating my artifacts with Karn and putting counters on them with the Overseer. The counters stay on them even when they cease to be artifacts, which led to scenarios where I was attacking with a 7/7 Crystal Ball and a 9/9 Thran Dynamo.

Unwinding Clock is pleasant, too. You can use Planar Portal and Predator, Flagship each turn!

I just cut Warhammer from my stack; I love the effect and the ability to make any of your artifacts into a trampling monster, but paying 3+1 every turn to make a reasonable attacker isn't a solid plan. I didn't run many creatures, but you might have more to work with.

There is also a strong possibility that you have too much mana ramping. I would much rather have Ur-Golem's Eye over the Monoliths, since one-shot mana hasn't been great for me unless it's accelerating into permanent sources of mana like Worn Powerstone. Another element against the Monoliths is that they are bad attackers with Karn. If I win a game with Karn, it's because I have a bunch of brown machines coming in, and I'd rather have a 4/4 that always attacks than a 2/2 that gets to hit once.

I play a semi-competitive list, so bear in mind that my choices reflect the fact that I don't want to lock people out of the game.

[Pringlesman]

Originally Posted by hi-val

I'm trying out Karn right now, too. I haven't put in the Mycosynth Lattice/Forge business, since they're expensive to purchase and Karn seems to do fine without them.

I suggest some card drawing over card selection. Both Scroll Rack and Top disappointed me when I played them, since you lack realistic shuffle effects. Tower of Fortunes and Urza's Blueprints are both solid (and seriously, it's worth running both).

Scorched Ruins is incredible, even in the face of LD.

I have also gotten a surprising amount of mileage out of Steel Overseer. It is low on the curve, which is good because Karn lacks cheap drops. One situation had me animating my artifacts with Karn and putting counters on them with the Overseer. The counters stay on them even when they cease to be artifacts, which led to scenarios where I was attacking with a 7/7 Crystal Ball and a 9/9 Thran Dynamo.

Unwinding Clock is pleasant, too. You can use Planar Portal and Predator, Flagship each turn!

I just cut Warhammer from my stack; I love the effect and the ability to make any of your artifacts into a trampling monster, but paying 3+1 every turn to make a reasonable attacker isn't a solid plan. I didn't run many creatures, but you might have more to work with.

There is also a strong possibility that you have too much mana ramping. I would much rather have Ur-Golem's Eye over the Monoliths, since one-shot mana hasn't been great for me unless it's accelerating into permanent sources of mana like Worn Powerstone. Another element against the Monoliths is that they are bad attackers with Karn. If I win a game with Karn, it's because I have a bunch of brown machines coming in, and I'd rather have a 4/4 that always attacks than a 2/2 that gets to hit once.

I play a semi-competitive list, so bear in mind that my choices reflect the fact that I don't want to lock people out of the game.

Thanks for the advice.

I didn't put in Mycrosynth Lattice because I figured people would kill me once they knew I could blow up all there lands (In that game, and every game after). I just haven't gotten around to getting a Darksteel Forge yet. I really want to do darksteel forge + disk just once in my life.

Tower of Fortune and Urza's Blueprint seems like a ton of mana to invest into things. But I'll try them out. Really Scroll Rack was bad for you? It's been great for me.

Scorched Ruin only seems good if I have crucible of worlds out, Since all my other lands have utility to them normally I'm better off in keeping them in play rather than a +1 mana bonus. And everyone ehre starts there deck with 1 strip mine 1 wasteland.

I thought about Steel Overseer, but I figured I wasnt running enough creatures/little guys to make him worth it. But then again I never considered the karn interaction. Keep in mind I'm planning on cutting some of the creatures that I currently have.

I love Loxodon Warhammer, this just really isn't the deck for it.

Grim Monolith and Basalt Monolith make infinite mana with karn and voltaic construct, thus the reason I was keeping it in.

Unwinding Clock seemed good, but kind of cutsey. I'll look into getting one.