MAJOR EDIT - March 20th, 2013: Many changes have been made in the past year. The information in building this deck has been left the same, but the deck list has been updated.
I've been working on this list for a little over a week, hours of crunching, comparing other lists posted and deciding on which cards to include (or rather, which to cut). The most difficult cuts came from a compiled list of 200-250 cards, excluding basic lands. I really have everyone to thank who's contributed a Omnath deck list but special thanks will go out at the end of this entire post and in private messages to sources. I look towards them especially for continuing help but also towards you all. Your advice, experience and practice is priceless
Currently I'm debating what spot will fill Living Wish when disallowed from using a sideboard. My first thought comes to a card cut early on, Rites of Flourishing but, that spot will likely be better off with something like Mirri's Guile or Sensei's Divining Top. I'm cautious of even including Sensei's Divining Top due to popular demand and gluttony (a 1 mana outlet when I'm dealing with swarms of mana in my pool!) . Worst case scenario, I look through my current side and add something like that.
The deck has a tendency to swarm into sums of mana quickly. Most players will become overwhelmed on basic draws alone, much less the ramp in mana and card draw that this deck can produce. Eventually an ideal set up will involve excess mana available at all times to provide flashing into play a killed Omnath. Even without Omnath, the eventual mana acceleration can overwhelm most.
Rather than discuss what I included, I find it more beneficial to talk about what I didn't. The following are cards I cross checked with what 4 other decks that I saw as prime examples of what you would want to include in a Omnath deck. Some cards were excluded from this list due to their importance in the original creators theme but not the overall use in a generic deck. Some cards were excluded due to their brief existence in the creation process.
Those that did exist for only a moment were thought of independently and then later removed during the live cut process. They never existed as more than an image on a screen, never making it to the second draft of a list. If those cards are brought up by replies I will address them if I can recall them as those cards.
Here are short explanations. Cards labeled "FINAL CUT CANDIDATE" were cut as a very last resort. Their inclusion is almost self explanatory and removal came with long thought. Personally if after skimming this list you understand all of my reasoning I would skip this section. If you do, move onto the detailed section.
The next batch of cards deserve a little more of a detailed explanation. Some I find myself desperately wanting you all to encourage.
Multani, Maro-Sorcerer - This is a powerful card that can stand alone. It doesn't offer much to the game other than its self but, that sometimes can be all that's needed. The biggest reason I avoided it was because of how easily it could be trump blocked. The power of a 1/1 could stop him from doing his job.
Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer - Similar to the above, he was overwhelmingly powerful and difficult to throw a block in front of but, he was the other side of the coin. He was too fragile to just be a big beat stick.
Kozilek the Butcher of Truth - His drawing effect is hard to rival for the body. Often a 5 for 1 and with an amazing ability, he was avoided for the same reasons I avoided Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre and, because his draw effect was simply too small.
Regal Force - Although his exclusion is understandable I feel he deserves an explanation. He's a great target to tutor for so you can draw (if you have the creatures to support it) but he finds himself more often than not, usless or only drawing 3-5 cards. It's not bad but not good enough for me.
Patron of the Orochi - This card almost got a short explanation. I wanted to include him for his ramping powers. I didn't because I already have a lot of effects that ramp and his mana cost was too much for an early effect.
Emerald Medallion - I keep debating this one internally but I feel I made a correct choice on it. The ramp this deck produces makes this card look like a joke. Drawing it alone can also be a wasted draw.
Sensei's Divining Top - I talked about this card before. It's a valuable card but I feel my previous comments cover it.
Heartbeat of Spring - This ultimately came down to being cut because it helps my opponents too much. I would hate to see it fall into the wrong mana pool.
Nature's Will - This was cut because it was too conditional to work. What if I didn't feel like attacking that turn? I felt encouraged to be very aggressive to gain maximum effect.
Survival of the Fittest[/c] - This was cut mainly because of its cost. While I do have some expensive cards in my deck, this one was expensive and limited to what I had to play into it. I'll explain my "price" choices next.
Vernal Equinox - I loved this card dearly but it was cut just the same as Heartbeat of the Spring. It was too beneficial for opponents.
Overwhelming Stampede - A very powerful card that I might need to revisit. I don't have a lot of creatures and the cards that create creatures are limited as just themselves because they usually are a win condition.
Tooth and Nail - This was cut due to price and function. I don't have a lot of targets but I can see why even a limited number of targets makes it still an amazing card. If you can afford it and find room for it, I HIGHLY recommend it.
Triumph of the Hordes - It's similar to Overwhelming Stampede but even better in that it can avoid infinite life combos. I would recommend it over Overwhelming.
Early Harvest - Avoided because of its individual ramp qualities. It's a good card but just too demanding.
Worldly Tutor - I cut this card because it was too slow. Thinking back on it, I might re-add it for an End of Turn use.
Lotus Cobra - A strong mana ramp creature. Limited in that it can't benefit from most multiplier effects but strong in it's ability to gain almost a guaranteed minimum of 1 mana. Cut ultimately because it isn't guaranteed.
Steel Hellkite - A VERY strong creature but it's too fragile and has the possibility to harm as well as help.
Altar of Dementia - A strong "WIN" condition card AND a sac outlet at that. It was cut towards the end because it was "one too many" of a instant win card and because eldrazi creatures make this card a little pointless. It might be better in an eldrazi-less environment.
Although this deck isn't listed as "budget" it is budgeted a little. There are expensive cards such as gaea's cradle in it but that's because I owned the card prior to making the deck (for $10 too ;D ). I avoided some expensive cards because anything more than $20 was just too expensive for a single card that was going to be used for fun.
This deck is considered very competitive for a multiplayer format. It has some instant win combos and very powerful draw spells. The speed of this deck once it gets online, is amazing and almost too powerful. Expect to be hated on if you run this deck and win with it, in the future. Maybe keep some of the cards I cut on hand to swap out to avoid the direct hate (switch things up a little).
Your deck looks really good - it certainly went in a different direction than mine (mine is pretty much only a General Damage deck, trying to get a lethal trampling Omnath as quickly as I can) while yours has a definite "big mana/big spells" feel to it. As a result a lot of the cards I've included are only there to help protect Omanth or get him back out of my library, or into play at instant speed, none of which you're particularly worried about. Glad to see you got Winding Canyons in there - it means you almost always get to keep your masses of mana as you simply pay 5 or 7 or even 11 and get him straight back.
With that difference between our decks in mind I think you've cut most of the cards I'd cut too - Although there's one you've cut that I'd definitely keep in and that's Regal Force. In your explanation you say:
but he finds himself more often than not, usless or only drawing 3-5 cards
Drawing 3-5 cards and leaving a reasonable body behind is still some good. If it was my deck I'd probably cut Hunting Wilds for it.
Your deck looks really good - it certainly went in a different direction than mine (mine is pretty much only a General Damage deck, trying to get a lethal trampling Omnath as quickly as I can) while yours has a definite "big mana/big spells" feel to it. As a result a lot of the cards I've included are only there to help protect Omanth or get him back out of my library, or into play at instant speed, none of which you're particularly worried about. Glad to see you got Winding Canyons in there - it means you almost always get to keep your masses of mana as you simply pay 5 or 7 or even 11 and get him straight back.
With that difference between our decks in mind I think you've cut most of the cards I'd cut too - Although there's one you've cut that I'd definitely keep in and that's Regal Force. In your explanation you say:
Drawing 3-5 cards and leaving a reasonable body behind is still some good. If it was my deck I'd probably cut Hunting Wilds for it.
Let us know how it plays out!
Cheers
Viperion
Canyon was MUCH need! I almost played Vernal Equinox just to provide 1 more flash outlet.
Thanks for the input, I saw that your deck went a different route than I decided to go but I really appreciated the data it provided with the other 3 in cross examination.
As for Regal, he was actually cut after the first FINAL BUILD. He stuck around and played with some goldfish rounds. I never took into consideration the body that came with him but, I found my self more often looking to draw masses of cards through other routes than a couple. Harmonize stayed in because it was cheap. Regal got 3-5 on average. Rarely did he see more and frequently it was less. When it comes to card draw, that was number one in cards to keep but, he just fell to the way-side when when I was looking for what to keep over what else.
The last ~10 cards should be coming in the mail this week. I hope before friday so I can play some EDH before FNM.
EDIT
Also, I need to show my Grim Monolith Proxy on here soon! I have a copy in another deck but it's just not a card I feel like owning more than 1 of so I made an acetone proxy out of a real common and then added text and had an artist do a GREAT piece in the art box. Too bad I came into 100 world champ deck proxies after the fact. Would have made a better card frame. I'll try to add it when I get home.
I didn't notice any GY hate. Is the plan to basically win before recurrsion can themes can win? Scavenging ooze may be good if you decide you need some because it's lifegain too. Probably better than essence warden. No boseiju, who shelters all in the wishboard either or even homeward path? The wishboard seems like it could us some work to be honest.
Has 26 forests been enough? Seems like way too little considering all the doublers and because your general only wants green to grow. I don't know if I'm a fan of the colorless artifact accel in a Omnath deck. Probably better off just using forests in theit place. Do you really need 2 land tutors? Seems like a waste of slots. You were talking about stuff like Kozilek saying 4 cards isn't enough but honestly the draw you have now is mostly conditional draw like momentus fall and greater good. I would recommend more as back up.
How has recycle been. I've never used it so I'm curious.
I didn't notice any GY hate. Is the plan to basically win before recurrsion can themes can win? Scavenging ooze may be good if you decide you need some because it's lifegain too. Probably better than essence warden.
Are recursion themes the most popular out there? I don't deny their existence and tried to address them when constructing but, I found my self cutting any GY removal for other proactive options. I think you're right though. I totally over looked the ooze.
With the lands in the side, I wanted to limit my options to leave room for more tools but I admit that it's probably the weakest feature of the deck right now. I don't know where my mind went with homeward path but with Boseiju, I just brushed off the thought of counter spells in a competitive multiplayer environment. But then it fits the theme of a great wish card. Something you don't really need but definitely can use in a pinch.
Has 26 forests been enough? Seems like way too little considering all the doublers and because your general only wants green to grow.
I was trying to maximize my forests and green because of this. 26 has been a very nice number. I think it's as sweet as it'll get till I reach 27.
I don't know if I'm a fan of the colorless artifact accel in a Omnath deck. Probably better off just using forests in theit place.
Are you talking about Sol Ring, Grim Monolith and Mana Vault? Those are GREAT ramp. I don't think a forest is warranted in their slots ESPECIALLY when they help make my 4, 5 and 6 CMC doubling spells come down 1-3 turns earlier. This is probably the only bit of criticism I'm not taking as constructive.
Do you really need 2 land tutors? Seems like a waste of slots.
I've seen other people say the same thing in other Omnath threads. I took the idea of using them cautiously but after some tests I've seen them to be very helpful. Winding Canyons and Gaea's Cradle are two MUST HAVE cards in most games. If I don't have the creature support to warrant Gaea, then I get Winding. If Versa, Vice. And then the other support cards are very useful in a pinch. I can't use living wish for everything.
You were talking about stuff like Kozilek saying 4 cards isn't enough but honestly the draw you have now is mostly conditional draw like momentus fall and greater good. I would recommend more as back up.
Kozilek is probably the only exception and if he's coming into the deck, he'll be in for either Recycle or Blightsteel Colossus.
As for the draw I have now: Garruk, Primal Hunter, Skullclamp, Greater Good, Sylvan Library, Recycle, Harmonize, Momentous Fall and (effectively) Genesis Wave... I think I have enough draw. The three "conditional" draw cards usually rely on Omnath being huge, which he usually is. The only unusual condition is when he's not and then hopefully I'll have some other 6/6 body doing it's job and then some.
I think you might have over looked that Omnath is the General for those 3. Not only is he always available to cast but happily killed to be recast (usually at instant speed) to keep his flourishing mana pool alive.
Even with all that said... I still want to play more card draw. That's how important card draw is to me in this deck. Identifying that in unison with me is great. We're synced up then! Identifying card draw that's actually useful in the deck and labeling it a poor choice? We just lost our connection.
How has recycle been. I've never used it so I'm curious.
Recycle was a last minute addition while I was looking for more card draw. I have very little faith in it and, if it leaves the deck, so does Reliquary Tower (also a complimenting last minute addition. 27th? lol). I have not seen it in action yet but it seems like it could be good.
I missed some of the card draw. I'm in LA and it was late when I posted plus I had already taken my sleeping pill I was just going by the experience with my green deck I've had recently. It vomits out it's hand dropping doublers,weenies,ramp,fatties etc and then it seems like its vulnerable to getting wiped out by a board wipe or just simply running out of gas. Part of the reason I'm looking for good draw options.
Kamahl is decent protection from most board wipes unless they eot sword him or something. He's a little expensive though so before I go all out it's sometimes a pain to cast him first and leave mana open before amassing a force to alpha strike with.
Since your general will usually be huge have you considered soul's majesty? Or is in the list or explanations somewhere and I missed it?
It vomits out it's hand dropping doublers,weenies,ramp,fatties etc and then it seems like its vulnerable to getting wiped out by a board wipe or just simply running out of gas. Part of the reason I'm looking for good draw options.
I've found that with only 18 creatures in the deck I don't usually lose a lot when they Wrath of God, or the like. Most of it can be recovered from pretty easily.
Kamahl is decent protection from most board wipes unless they eot sword him or something. He's a little expensive though so before I go all out it's sometimes a pain to cast him first and leave mana open before amassing a force to alpha strike with.
Depending on the mana available, Kamahl usually is game when he's dropped.
Since your general will usually be huge have you considered soul's majesty? Or is in the list or explanations somewhere and I missed it?
BOTH - 5 CMC
BOTH - sorcery speed
BOTH - net'd me cards = p/t
GARRUK - doesn't target (lack of a chance of getting countered by state based effects)
GARRUK - has other options
Also, I need to show my Grim Monolith Proxy on here soon! I have a copy in another deck but it's just not a card I feel like owning more than 1 of so I made an acetone proxy out of a real common and then added text and had an artist do a GREAT piece in the art box. Too bad I came into 100 world champ deck proxies after the fact. Would have made a better card frame. I'll try to add it when I get home.
I was going to talk about Recycle but, after some more tests, I've found it to offer WILD amounts of advantage. I still feel like adding an eldrazi into the deck to shuffle if needed.
But I almost feel like it also forces me to unload cards I'd rather hold back in order to get the draws off it. Anyone else have any experience or advice for it?
Haha. Wow, that's neat. The sad thing is that I have since taken Omnath apart. If I was going to rebuild him, I think it would look a lot like this. Nice job.
I'm Surpised Melira, Sylvok Outcast hasn't made the Sideboard or even the Cut list... Not only does she halt poison counter issue, for example when Blue Bribery's your Blightsteel (And blight 'doesn't evoke hate'?!?!? you must be playing in a stubborn playgroup...)... but the shenanigans interaction with her and Woodfall Primus (if you T&N them both) is pretty nuts.
EDH:
Currently Piloting:
Dama, Sage of Stone | Karador, Ghost Chieftan | Sigarda, Host of Herons | Elbrus, the Binding Blade / Withengar Unbound | Grand Arbiter Augustin IV | Genju of the Realm | Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Haha. Wow, that's neat. The sad thing is that I have since taken Omnath apart. If I was going to rebuild him, I think it would look a lot like this. Nice job.
I'm Surpised Melira, Sylvok Outcast hasn't made the Sideboard or even the Cut list... Not only does she halt poison counter issue, for example when Blue Bribery's your Blightsteel (And blight 'doesn't evoke hate'?!?!? you must be playing in a stubborn playgroup...)... but the shenanigans interaction with her and Woodfall Primus (if you T&N them both) is pretty nuts.
I've seen more players rage over an Eldrazi than over a blightsteel. I don't get the logic either but I play to it. If my local play group isn't happy over it then I'll switch to kozilek.
I actually own a very pretty foil Melira. She crossed my mind but I couldn't think of many combo's to use her with. What do you mean by "T&N"? Woodfall might be a combo worth using especially if I add Kozilek to keep me from decking out.
I've seen more players rage over an Eldrazi than over a blightsteel. I don't get the logic either but I play to it. If my local play group isn't happy over it then I'll switch to kozilek.
I actually own a very pretty foil Melira. She crossed my mind but I couldn't think of many combo's to use her with. What do you mean by "T&N"? Woodfall might be a combo worth using especially if I add Kozilek to keep me from decking out.
Yeah i mean i feel you on the confusing playgroup... Blightsteel sucks and i've found that he generates a complete shift in focus in the game. If he's in someone's deck -> bribery or even acquire, if he's on the field -> everyone focus his controller, if he's in the graveyard -> everyone try and reanimate him... he reminds me of what happened when people ran Emrakul... But yeah. Play to your meta!
Tooth & Nail is what i meant... which i see you aren't running. Basically any card that puts 2 creatures you you can pop Melira and Woodfall primus together. So Defense of the Heart would work too. But even without those cheats, she's good protection... i'd definitely at least sideboard her next to Tejuru Preserver.
But now i'm confused about what you mean with decking yourself. Woodfall Primus allows you to destory something, so with Melira and a sacrifice outlet, you can blow up someone's board. Are you thinking of Regal Force?
EDH:
Currently Piloting:
Dama, Sage of Stone | Karador, Ghost Chieftan | Sigarda, Host of Herons | Elbrus, the Binding Blade / Withengar Unbound | Grand Arbiter Augustin IV | Genju of the Realm | Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
if he's in the graveyard -> everyone try and reanimate him
Blightsteel can't hit the grave. Eldrazi hit the grave and are then shuffled back in. Blightsteel is a replacement effect and eldrazi are a triggered ability.
But now i'm confused about what you mean with decking yourself. Woodfall Primus allows you to destory something, so with Melira and a sacrifice outlet, you can blow up someone's board. Are you thinking of Regal Force?
I was talking about my only reusable sac outlet, greater good. I'm worried about drawing a ton off woodfall and decking out in order to blow up the table. If I had an eldrazi to trigger, I could shuffle the grave into the deck and do it all over again.
This deck has gotten low in cards, to lose 20-15 on turn 7-9 or even sooner.
Played some games a little while ago. I learned three things.
1) Awakening affects everyone
2) I need to have more sac outlets
3) I need to add Vernal Equinox back
The first doesn't really hurt me too much and it actually helps me more often than not. It has me reconsidering Winter Orb since the two don't play nice. Since I need the Awakening and Orb doesn't do much without support, I think it makes sense to cut it.
The second point was noticed when someone insurrected me. I was able to sac Omnath for 63 life putting me to 145 at the time but that didn't help me when my opponent took my 28 1/2 plants, Avenger of Zendikar, played a land AND also took an opponents Grimgrin. The tokens went into the grim but, they could have been rough even without it. I could have used some sacrifice outlets. Although, that was a VERY situational moment.
The last point was noticed on a mistake that almost cost me my position. I need to be able to back up my omnath mana pool and the only way I can do that is by keeping omnath in play. Vernal E helps my opponents (especially with awakening) but it also helps me a ton too. I'll be looking to add it in soon.
SIDE NOTE
Go check out my brothers yamazaki deck (in my signature) for more updates coming VERY soon. I have 194/200 cards for both decks now.
The second point was noticed when someone insurrected me. I was able to sac Omnath for 63 life putting me to 145 at the time but that didn't help me when my opponent took my 28 1/2 plants, Avenger of Zendikar, played a land AND also took an opponents Grimgrin. The tokens went into the grim but, they could have been rough even without it. I could have used some sacrifice outlets. Although, that was a VERY situational moment.
What did you do to get the life? Also what defenses do you use against flyers?
Some revisions I've made include adding a flyer removal creature so I can tutor it out. Silklash Spider in the main. I also added Snow Forests and a Scrying Sheets.
Had a recent match up where my opponent Mindslaver'd me and left me in ruins with a recycle in play. Let's just say I'll be focusing on him HARD from here on out while encouraging other players with back-scratching tactics to help wreck him.
A quick note to say I played against my version of this deck last night and died to a 428/425 Trampling Indestructible Omnath... story to come in the Crazy Plays thread
This update is a little over due but it is what it is.
I added the following, with explanations of why: Birds of Paradise - I removed Fyndhorn Elves for it because it flies and does the same job. Every once in a while I've found a flyer can get there and can block fatality. Sword of Fire and Ice - Pick TWO of those up for cheap so I figured "why not?" Mind's Eye - I've felt more and more that I need to optimize card draw in this deck Loxodon Warhammer - I went looking for some great trample effect and decided to settle on this. Snow-Covered Forest - This was actually added because the Scrying Sheet I was going to add ended up getting damaged (BAD) and I instead used it on my desk (look it up).
Here are some cards I've removed and a why: Helix Pinnacle - the combo was a nice "back up" but I basically became the target once it resolved or, it was a dead draw. I was more concerned with it just being a wasted draw. People don't play "LOL, I SHUT DOWN THE GAME AND MAKE IT NOT FUN FOR ANYONE" decks soooooo, cut. Sakura-Tribe Elder - He became a war hammer. He's nice but not nice enough. Blightsteel Colossus - He was a little degenerate. So degenerate that people would make house rules about poison being 15-20 for him. I decided his slot was better spent else where. Fyndhorn Elves - HE GREW WINGS! Scrying Sheets - RIP $1 scrying sheets. ;_;
Most recent note worthy accomplishments, played a planechase game with Omnath and ended up finish the game using 820 mana to make a bunch of Insect Tokens ontop of the 42 I already had, Blocked 83 infect damage then went ALPHA STRIKE on two players. Thank you Llanowar! And thank you Chaos effects being triggered effects that use the stack!
If you have any question about my deck, cards I've used, use or decided not to use, ASK!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I've been working on this list for a little over a week, hours of crunching, comparing other lists posted and deciding on which cards to include (or rather, which to cut). The most difficult cuts came from a compiled list of 200-250 cards, excluding basic lands. I really have everyone to thank who's contributed a Omnath deck list but special thanks will go out at the end of this entire post and in private messages to sources. I look towards them especially for continuing help but also towards you all. Your advice, experience and practice is priceless
So let's start with the list
1 Omnath, Locus of Mana
CREATURES
1 Acidic Slime
1 Ant Queen
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Birds of Paraside
1 Eternal Witness
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Magus of the Candelabra
1 Nullmage Shepherd
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Silklash Spider
1 Sylvan Primordial
1 Terastodon
1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
ARTIFACTS
1 Akroma's Memorial
1 Caged Sun
1 Doubling Cube
1 Expedition Map
1 Extraplanar Lens
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Loxodon Warhammer
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mind's Eye
1 Nim Deathmantle
1 Sol Ring
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Vedalken Orrery
ENCHANTMENTS
1 Asceticism
1 Awakening
1 Greater Good
1 Hall of Gemstone
1 Mana Reflection
1 Recycle
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vernal Bloom
1 Vernal Equinox
1 Bramblecrush
1 Cultivate
1 Desert Twister
1 Genesis Wave
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Harmonize
1 Hunting Wilds
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Living Wish
1 Praetor's Counsel
1 Ranger's Path
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Beast Within
INSTANTS
1 Chord of Calling
1 Momentous Fall
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Karn Liberated
NONBASIC LANDS
1 Dust Bowl
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Homeward Path
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Mosswort Bridge
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Scrying Sheets
1 Winding Canyons
1 Yavimaya Hollow
BASIC LANDS
27 Snow-covered Forest
1 Arashi, the Sky Asunder
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tajuru Preserver
1 Strip Mine
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Melira, Sylvok outcast
1 Phyrexian Revoker
Currently I'm debating what spot will fill Living Wish when disallowed from using a sideboard. My first thought comes to a card cut early on, Rites of Flourishing but, that spot will likely be better off with something like Mirri's Guile or Sensei's Divining Top. I'm cautious of even including Sensei's Divining Top due to popular demand and gluttony (a 1 mana outlet when I'm dealing with swarms of mana in my pool!) . Worst case scenario, I look through my current side and add something like that.
The deck has a tendency to swarm into sums of mana quickly. Most players will become overwhelmed on basic draws alone, much less the ramp in mana and card draw that this deck can produce. Eventually an ideal set up will involve excess mana available at all times to provide flashing into play a killed Omnath. Even without Omnath, the eventual mana acceleration can overwhelm most.
Rather than discuss what I included, I find it more beneficial to talk about what I didn't. The following are cards I cross checked with what 4 other decks that I saw as prime examples of what you would want to include in a Omnath deck. Some cards were excluded from this list due to their importance in the original creators theme but not the overall use in a generic deck. Some cards were excluded due to their brief existence in the creation process.
Those that did exist for only a moment were thought of independently and then later removed during the live cut process. They never existed as more than an image on a screen, never making it to the second draft of a list. If those cards are brought up by replies I will address them if I can recall them as those cards.
Here are short explanations. Cards labeled "FINAL CUT CANDIDATE" were cut as a very last resort. Their inclusion is almost self explanatory and removal came with long thought. Personally if after skimming this list you understand all of my reasoning I would skip this section. If you do, move onto the detailed section.
ARTIFACTS
ENCHANTMENTS
SORCERIES
INSTANTS
LANDS
The next batch of cards deserve a little more of a detailed explanation. Some I find myself desperately wanting you all to encourage.
Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer - Similar to the above, he was overwhelmingly powerful and difficult to throw a block in front of but, he was the other side of the coin. He was too fragile to just be a big beat stick.
Kozilek the Butcher of Truth - His drawing effect is hard to rival for the body. Often a 5 for 1 and with an amazing ability, he was avoided for the same reasons I avoided Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre and, because his draw effect was simply too small.
Regal Force - Although his exclusion is understandable I feel he deserves an explanation. He's a great target to tutor for so you can draw (if you have the creatures to support it) but he finds himself more often than not, usless or only drawing 3-5 cards. It's not bad but not good enough for me.
Patron of the Orochi - This card almost got a short explanation. I wanted to include him for his ramping powers. I didn't because I already have a lot of effects that ramp and his mana cost was too much for an early effect.
Emerald Medallion - I keep debating this one internally but I feel I made a correct choice on it. The ramp this deck produces makes this card look like a joke. Drawing it alone can also be a wasted draw.
Sensei's Divining Top - I talked about this card before. It's a valuable card but I feel my previous comments cover it.
Heartbeat of Spring - This ultimately came down to being cut because it helps my opponents too much. I would hate to see it fall into the wrong mana pool.
Nature's Will - This was cut because it was too conditional to work. What if I didn't feel like attacking that turn? I felt encouraged to be very aggressive to gain maximum effect.
Survival of the Fittest[/c] - This was cut mainly because of its cost. While I do have some expensive cards in my deck, this one was expensive and limited to what I had to play into it. I'll explain my "price" choices next.
Vernal Equinox - I loved this card dearly but it was cut just the same as Heartbeat of the Spring. It was too beneficial for opponents.
Overwhelming Stampede - A very powerful card that I might need to revisit. I don't have a lot of creatures and the cards that create creatures are limited as just themselves because they usually are a win condition.
Tooth and Nail - This was cut due to price and function. I don't have a lot of targets but I can see why even a limited number of targets makes it still an amazing card. If you can afford it and find room for it, I HIGHLY recommend it.
Triumph of the Hordes - It's similar to Overwhelming Stampede but even better in that it can avoid infinite life combos. I would recommend it over Overwhelming.
Early Harvest - Avoided because of its individual ramp qualities. It's a good card but just too demanding.
Worldly Tutor - I cut this card because it was too slow. Thinking back on it, I might re-add it for an End of Turn use.
Dosan the Falling Leaf - A strong card to fetch for. I might add it or sideboard it.
Lotus Cobra - A strong mana ramp creature. Limited in that it can't benefit from most multiplier effects but strong in it's ability to gain almost a guaranteed minimum of 1 mana. Cut ultimately because it isn't guaranteed.
Steel Hellkite - A VERY strong creature but it's too fragile and has the possibility to harm as well as help.
Altar of Dementia - A strong "WIN" condition card AND a sac outlet at that. It was cut towards the end because it was "one too many" of a instant win card and because eldrazi creatures make this card a little pointless. It might be better in an eldrazi-less environment.
Although this deck isn't listed as "budget" it is budgeted a little. There are expensive cards such as gaea's cradle in it but that's because I owned the card prior to making the deck (for $10 too ;D ). I avoided some expensive cards because anything more than $20 was just too expensive for a single card that was going to be used for fun.
This deck is considered very competitive for a multiplayer format. It has some instant win combos and very powerful draw spells. The speed of this deck once it gets online, is amazing and almost too powerful. Expect to be hated on if you run this deck and win with it, in the future. Maybe keep some of the cards I cut on hand to swap out to avoid the direct hate (switch things up a little).
EDITS
20111204
Added Strip Mine and Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre to the sideboard.
Removed Tectonic Edge and Fuana Shaman
20111207
Added Scavenging Ooze and Boseiju, Who Shelters All and Arashi, the Sky Asunder to sideboard, Homeward Path to mainboard.
Removed Essence Warden, Vesuva, Silklash Spider and Dryad Arbor.
20120103
Added Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Vernal Equinox, 25 Snow-covered Forest, Scrying Sheets, Silklash Spider.
Removed Winter Orb, Grim Monolith, 26 Forest, Squall Line
20120318
Added Birds of Paradise, Sword of Fire and Ice, Mind's Eye, Loxodon Warhammer, Snow-Covered Forest
Removed Helix Pinnacle, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Blightsteel Colossus, Fyndhorn Elves, Scrying Sheets
20130320
Many changes in the last year.
adinsx
- amppyou
- Argel the Destro
- Blees
- boxian
- BrunoSam
- Dalamar_85
- Dark Ascension
- Diorinix
- Elfy_T
- elvishchampionforever
- FRAGM3NT
- fzian
- GundamGuy
- helghast101
- IceBear
- jonboyjon
- Neptune
- Pacman
- Plaguebearer
- Rivenor
- Syzyx
- Viperion
Their compiled data helps me create the list I have now and inspired me to abuse the power of green!
Special appreciation goes out to the creators of the 4 lists I used to compare the staple cards for an Omnath deck.
Viperion's list
Neptune's list
helghast101's list
and amppyou's list which was probably the most influential and informational.
Your deck looks really good - it certainly went in a different direction than mine (mine is pretty much only a General Damage deck, trying to get a lethal trampling Omnath as quickly as I can) while yours has a definite "big mana/big spells" feel to it. As a result a lot of the cards I've included are only there to help protect Omanth or get him back out of my library, or into play at instant speed, none of which you're particularly worried about. Glad to see you got Winding Canyons in there - it means you almost always get to keep your masses of mana as you simply pay 5 or 7 or even 11 and get him straight back.
With that difference between our decks in mind I think you've cut most of the cards I'd cut too - Although there's one you've cut that I'd definitely keep in and that's Regal Force. In your explanation you say:
Drawing 3-5 cards and leaving a reasonable body behind is still some good. If it was my deck I'd probably cut Hunting Wilds for it.
Let us know how it plays out!
Cheers
Viperion
Canyon was MUCH need! I almost played Vernal Equinox just to provide 1 more flash outlet.
Thanks for the input, I saw that your deck went a different route than I decided to go but I really appreciated the data it provided with the other 3 in cross examination.
As for Regal, he was actually cut after the first FINAL BUILD. He stuck around and played with some goldfish rounds. I never took into consideration the body that came with him but, I found my self more often looking to draw masses of cards through other routes than a couple. Harmonize stayed in because it was cheap. Regal got 3-5 on average. Rarely did he see more and frequently it was less. When it comes to card draw, that was number one in cards to keep but, he just fell to the way-side when when I was looking for what to keep over what else.
The last ~10 cards should be coming in the mail this week. I hope before friday so I can play some EDH before FNM.
EDIT
Also, I need to show my Grim Monolith Proxy on here soon! I have a copy in another deck but it's just not a card I feel like owning more than 1 of so I made an acetone proxy out of a real common and then added text and had an artist do a GREAT piece in the art box. Too bad I came into 100 world champ deck proxies after the fact. Would have made a better card frame. I'll try to add it when I get home.
Has 26 forests been enough? Seems like way too little considering all the doublers and because your general only wants green to grow. I don't know if I'm a fan of the colorless artifact accel in a Omnath deck. Probably better off just using forests in theit place. Do you really need 2 land tutors? Seems like a waste of slots. You were talking about stuff like Kozilek saying 4 cards isn't enough but honestly the draw you have now is mostly conditional draw like momentus fall and greater good. I would recommend more as back up.
How has recycle been. I've never used it so I'm curious.
Thank You Rivenor/Miraculous Recovery Studios!
GGGSKamahl's Band of Monstosities SGGG
RRRSFreaki-Kiki, The Goblin DoucheSRRR
BBGGNath, Raper of Hands and Spewer of Tokens!GGBB
BUGDamia, Sage of AnswersBUG
WIPs
BBBXiahou Dun, the Bitter Stax Enabling BastardBBB
On Break
BBBSKagemaro, First to RetireSBBB
BBBThe Walking DeadBBB
UUUSTeferi Combo PrimerSUUU
Are recursion themes the most popular out there? I don't deny their existence and tried to address them when constructing but, I found my self cutting any GY removal for other proactive options. I think you're right though. I totally over looked the ooze.
With the lands in the side, I wanted to limit my options to leave room for more tools but I admit that it's probably the weakest feature of the deck right now. I don't know where my mind went with homeward path but with Boseiju, I just brushed off the thought of counter spells in a competitive multiplayer environment. But then it fits the theme of a great wish card. Something you don't really need but definitely can use in a pinch.
I was trying to maximize my forests and green because of this. 26 has been a very nice number. I think it's as sweet as it'll get till I reach 27.
Are you talking about Sol Ring, Grim Monolith and Mana Vault? Those are GREAT ramp. I don't think a forest is warranted in their slots ESPECIALLY when they help make my 4, 5 and 6 CMC doubling spells come down 1-3 turns earlier. This is probably the only bit of criticism I'm not taking as constructive.
I've seen other people say the same thing in other Omnath threads. I took the idea of using them cautiously but after some tests I've seen them to be very helpful. Winding Canyons and Gaea's Cradle are two MUST HAVE cards in most games. If I don't have the creature support to warrant Gaea, then I get Winding. If Versa, Vice. And then the other support cards are very useful in a pinch. I can't use living wish for everything.
Kozilek is probably the only exception and if he's coming into the deck, he'll be in for either Recycle or Blightsteel Colossus.
As for the draw I have now: Garruk, Primal Hunter, Skullclamp, Greater Good, Sylvan Library, Recycle, Harmonize, Momentous Fall and (effectively) Genesis Wave... I think I have enough draw. The three "conditional" draw cards usually rely on Omnath being huge, which he usually is. The only unusual condition is when he's not and then hopefully I'll have some other 6/6 body doing it's job and then some.
I think you might have over looked that Omnath is the General for those 3. Not only is he always available to cast but happily killed to be recast (usually at instant speed) to keep his flourishing mana pool alive.
Even with all that said... I still want to play more card draw. That's how important card draw is to me in this deck. Identifying that in unison with me is great. We're synced up then! Identifying card draw that's actually useful in the deck and labeling it a poor choice? We just lost our connection.
Recycle was a last minute addition while I was looking for more card draw. I have very little faith in it and, if it leaves the deck, so does Reliquary Tower (also a complimenting last minute addition. 27th? lol). I have not seen it in action yet but it seems like it could be good.
Bear Umbra
Sakiko, Mother of Summer
Mark of Sakiko
Sword of Feast and Famine
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Sword is great but the other's are too individual to be always effective. Bear Umbra is probably the only one I'd reconsider.
Kamahl is decent protection from most board wipes unless they eot sword him or something. He's a little expensive though so before I go all out it's sometimes a pain to cast him first and leave mana open before amassing a force to alpha strike with.
Since your general will usually be huge have you considered soul's majesty? Or is in the list or explanations somewhere and I missed it?
Thank You Rivenor/Miraculous Recovery Studios!
GGGSKamahl's Band of Monstosities SGGG
RRRSFreaki-Kiki, The Goblin DoucheSRRR
BBGGNath, Raper of Hands and Spewer of Tokens!GGBB
BUGDamia, Sage of AnswersBUG
WIPs
BBBXiahou Dun, the Bitter Stax Enabling BastardBBB
On Break
BBBSKagemaro, First to RetireSBBB
BBBThe Walking DeadBBB
UUUSTeferi Combo PrimerSUUU
I've found that with only 18 creatures in the deck I don't usually lose a lot when they Wrath of God, or the like. Most of it can be recovered from pretty easily.
Depending on the mana available, Kamahl usually is game when he's dropped.
Soul's Majesty was cut for Garruk, Primal Hunter.
BOTH - 5 CMC
BOTH - sorcery speed
BOTH - net'd me cards = p/t
GARRUK - doesn't target (lack of a chance of getting countered by state based effects)
GARRUK - has other options
EDIT
Changed the deck a little. The change-log was updated. Scavenging Ooze, Arashi, the Sky Asunder and Boseiju, Who Shelters All were added to the sideboard. Homeward Path was added to the main.
The cards removed were Essence Warden, Vesuva, Silklash Spider and Dryad Arbor.
Also, on an unrelated note, I did have 27 "forests" in the deck prior to these edits but I've elected to remove dryad due to summoning sickness.
Here it is.
But I almost feel like it also forces me to unload cards I'd rather hold back in order to get the draws off it. Anyone else have any experience or advice for it?
EDIT
200th post! Too bad it was a self bump
EDH:
Currently Piloting:
Dama, Sage of Stone | Karador, Ghost Chieftan | Sigarda, Host of Herons | Elbrus, the Binding Blade / Withengar Unbound | Grand Arbiter Augustin IV | Genju of the Realm | Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Thanks!
I've seen more players rage over an Eldrazi than over a blightsteel. I don't get the logic either but I play to it. If my local play group isn't happy over it then I'll switch to kozilek.
I actually own a very pretty foil Melira. She crossed my mind but I couldn't think of many combo's to use her with. What do you mean by "T&N"? Woodfall might be a combo worth using especially if I add Kozilek to keep me from decking out.
Yeah i mean i feel you on the confusing playgroup... Blightsteel sucks and i've found that he generates a complete shift in focus in the game. If he's in someone's deck -> bribery or even acquire, if he's on the field -> everyone focus his controller, if he's in the graveyard -> everyone try and reanimate him... he reminds me of what happened when people ran Emrakul... But yeah. Play to your meta!
Tooth & Nail is what i meant... which i see you aren't running. Basically any card that puts 2 creatures you you can pop Melira and Woodfall primus together. So Defense of the Heart would work too. But even without those cheats, she's good protection... i'd definitely at least sideboard her next to Tejuru Preserver.
But now i'm confused about what you mean with decking yourself. Woodfall Primus allows you to destory something, so with Melira and a sacrifice outlet, you can blow up someone's board. Are you thinking of Regal Force?
EDH:
Currently Piloting:
Dama, Sage of Stone | Karador, Ghost Chieftan | Sigarda, Host of Herons | Elbrus, the Binding Blade / Withengar Unbound | Grand Arbiter Augustin IV | Genju of the Realm | Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Blightsteel can't hit the grave. Eldrazi hit the grave and are then shuffled back in. Blightsteel is a replacement effect and eldrazi are a triggered ability.
I was talking about my only reusable sac outlet, greater good. I'm worried about drawing a ton off woodfall and decking out in order to blow up the table. If I had an eldrazi to trigger, I could shuffle the grave into the deck and do it all over again.
This deck has gotten low in cards, to lose 20-15 on turn 7-9 or even sooner.
1) Awakening affects everyone
2) I need to have more sac outlets
3) I need to add Vernal Equinox back
The first doesn't really hurt me too much and it actually helps me more often than not. It has me reconsidering Winter Orb since the two don't play nice. Since I need the Awakening and Orb doesn't do much without support, I think it makes sense to cut it.
The second point was noticed when someone insurrected me. I was able to sac Omnath for 63 life putting me to 145 at the time but that didn't help me when my opponent took my 28 1/2 plants, Avenger of Zendikar, played a land AND also took an opponents Grimgrin. The tokens went into the grim but, they could have been rough even without it. I could have used some sacrifice outlets. Although, that was a VERY situational moment.
The last point was noticed on a mistake that almost cost me my position. I need to be able to back up my omnath mana pool and the only way I can do that is by keeping omnath in play. Vernal E helps my opponents (especially with awakening) but it also helps me a ton too. I'll be looking to add it in soon.
SIDE NOTE
Go check out my brothers yamazaki deck (in my signature) for more updates coming VERY soon. I have 194/200 cards for both decks now.
What did you do to get the life? Also what defenses do you use against flyers?
I have Arashi, the Sky Asunder (from living wish), Squall Line, Spot removal, Akroma's Memorial, Miren, the moaning well and a few tutors and draw cards to boot.
But seriously...
Some revisions I've made include adding a flyer removal creature so I can tutor it out. Silklash Spider in the main. I also added Snow Forests and a Scrying Sheets.
CUT
ADDED
Had a recent match up where my opponent Mindslaver'd me and left me in ruins with a recycle in play. Let's just say I'll be focusing on him HARD from here on out while encouraging other players with back-scratching tactics to help wreck him.
I'll add the updates to the main list next.
I added the following, with explanations of why:
Birds of Paradise - I removed Fyndhorn Elves for it because it flies and does the same job. Every once in a while I've found a flyer can get there and can block fatality.
Sword of Fire and Ice - Pick TWO of those up for cheap so I figured "why not?"
Mind's Eye - I've felt more and more that I need to optimize card draw in this deck
Loxodon Warhammer - I went looking for some great trample effect and decided to settle on this.
Snow-Covered Forest - This was actually added because the Scrying Sheet I was going to add ended up getting damaged (BAD) and I instead used it on my desk (look it up).
Here are some cards I've removed and a why:
Helix Pinnacle - the combo was a nice "back up" but I basically became the target once it resolved or, it was a dead draw. I was more concerned with it just being a wasted draw. People don't play "LOL, I SHUT DOWN THE GAME AND MAKE IT NOT FUN FOR ANYONE" decks soooooo, cut.
Sakura-Tribe Elder - He became a war hammer. He's nice but not nice enough.
Blightsteel Colossus - He was a little degenerate. So degenerate that people would make house rules about poison being 15-20 for him. I decided his slot was better spent else where.
Fyndhorn Elves - HE GREW WINGS!
Scrying Sheets - RIP $1 scrying sheets. ;_;
Most recent note worthy accomplishments, played a planechase game with Omnath and ended up finish the game using 820 mana to make a bunch of Insect Tokens ontop of the 42 I already had, Blocked 83 infect damage then went ALPHA STRIKE on two players. Thank you Llanowar! And thank you Chaos effects being triggered effects that use the stack!
If you have any question about my deck, cards I've used, use or decided not to use, ASK!