A walker whose +2 screams "build around me". Up until now, though, I've mostly seen him tucked neatly into control, leaving his -1 almost entirely ignored. This deck aims to get extreme value out of ETB effects for beating down hard, then throwing armies of unblockables in. Even if your army is hated out Venser's ultimate is so vastly unfair that bouncing lands in topdeck mode can turn the tide.
Let's begin!
1 CMC Doomed Traveler: a 1-drop that will make a token, which can be a primary source of damage, no interaction with Venser Champion of the Parish: there are many valuable humans with ETB abilities in this list, Venser can add a lot of extra +1/+1 counters while adding value elsewhere Birds of Paradise/Avacyn's Pilgrim: dorks to get up to your dangerous fellows faster
2 CMC Inquisitor Exarch: versatile way to sneak in life loss or buy you some time each turn Strangleroot Geist: picks off a good amount of life early to put people closer to the limit breaking unblockable swing Phantasmal Image: might as well be Venser's +2 for 2 mana, amazingly cheap copy of your most ridiculous creature... do not target with Venser
4 CMC Phyrexian Metamorph: essentially a 3-drop, another clone for your mightiest face smashers, Venser friendly unlike the image Solemn Simulacrum: ramp and draw on a body pumped by splicers Wing Splicer: more golem factories, this time with evasion Master Splicer: golem factory in anthem form Dungeon Geists: like the Leonin and Fiend, bigger and flying Peace Strider/Pierce Strider: non versatile but stronger versions of the Exarch above Hero of Bladehold: if this card also said unblockable it would be $150, she loves Venser
5 CMC Geist-Honored Monk: Venser, the Spirit Factory Acidic Slime: if you get him going with Venser's +2 people rage, true story Precursor Golem: golem factory, efficient but vulnerable
6 CMC Sun Titan: extra recursion, could resurrect 2 things turn 6, but not an easy guy to play here
7 CMC Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite: no Venser interaction, and even more difficult than Sun to resolve, but such an incredible card it's hard not to mention, makes tokens insane and wipes the board, there's not many games she doesn't win Sphinx of Uthuun: +2 fact or fiction, but if this resolves the first time you probably don't need to exile him anymore... it's just... +2 FACT OR FICTION! Don't mind 5/6 flying either
Artifacts Mycosynth Wellspring/Ichor Wellspring: pure Venser fuel
Trigon of Anything: more Venser fuel, that is, 2 uses per turn and recharges for free Sphere of the Suns: this feels good powering past the meh 2 and 3 drops to hit a 4 drop t3 and Venser t4, bonus points for recharging with Venser in an emergency Batterskull: Venser saves you the mana of recasting it for the germ token, all around fantastic card
Planeswalkers Elspeth Tirel: token machine, exploitable if Venser recharges after -2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad: anthem machine with Venser recharging, black splash required Gideon Jura: soaks up to 7 damage every turn if recharged by Venser or a 6/6 unblockable Garruk Relentless: Venser recharges for 1 or 2 damage to a creature per turn, tutors the finishers and churns out fantastic tokens
Generally you build Venser around permanents Lingering Souls: tokens! (splash of black) Timely Reinforcements: tokens, life, conditionally usable Day of Judgment/Divine Reckoning: Venser hides your biggest threat while you wipe clean, then end your turn with the upper hand
Conditionals: Slayer of the Wicked: Huntmaster, Olivia, whatever the next scary finisher becomes can be negated by an easy sideboard decision Leonin Relic-Warder: strong sideboard material, Venser lets him retarget new threats Fiend Hunter: like the Leonin above Thalia, Guardian of Thraben: no interaction with Venser, but creatures are strong plays in this deck and really puts the hurt on control and delver Vital Splicer: the golem factory's cheap answer to removal Stonehorn Dignitary: the lockdown, even though not in control it is extremely strong, can buy you another turn to build up your mighty unblockable swing
Anti-hate: Stony Silence: your tokens can be hated out very easily, also neutralizes equipment and other more narrow but present cards Mana Leak/Negate: the deck can fit some counters for general purposes, Venser draws the hate
Perhaps you should just send WOTC a resume and tell them why you're better at Magic than one of their employees instead of complaining here, where nobody really has any authority on the matter.
i get why you want to be aggressive with Venser, but he's not really an aggressive PW, his +2 leads up to his ultimate, the -1 is pointless and should not have been part of his abilities imo, unless you're playing Honor of the Pure, a bunch of Humans and Hero of Bladehold to win t5. That could work, but Gideon is still probably the better man there.
a deck planning to control the game with Venser or eventually win with him, since he is pretty powerful, has to be running sweepers, draw spells (huge once you ultimate) and things to defend with early on.
Spellskite and Stonehorn can shut down just about every aggressive deck in the format, Blade Splicer fits snugly into the 3 slot, you get Mana Leak, Dissipate, O-ring, maybe some more things to bounce for effect, and hold the game down until you can ultimate. Then whenever you play Ponder you are exiling 2 permanents, you do that once and your opponent will probably concede unless they have have you next turn.
oh pfft, i forgot Snapcaster Mage, bouncing him every turn and recasting your spells seems good.
i think Venser has a good deal of potential but he and the rag-tag golem bunch are too slow for an aggressive strategy.
EDIT: Tumble Magnet is very cool with Venser, as well as Contagion Clasp/Engine for recurrable removal and unavoidable sweep in the late game. Oh and by the way, friggin Trinket Mage+Treasure Mage with Venser? You get Grafdiggers into hand, Engine into hand, Myr BattleSphere!
i get why you want to be aggressive with Venser, but he's not really an aggressive PW, his +2 leads up to his ultimate, the -1 is pointless and should not have been part of his abilities imo, unless you're playing Honor of the Pure, a bunch of Humans and Hero of Bladehold to win t5. That could work, but Gideon is still probably the better man there.
Played with it for a little tonight, and I'll just say I disagree strongly about the -1. Vigilance plus unblockable tokens makes life very difficult for my opponent, especially with first strike for defense.
But I may have been wrong about using the description of beatdown. I'd say maybe this is Venser Tempo?
EDIT: Tumble Magnet is very cool with Venser, as well as Contagion Clasp/Engine for recurrable removal and unavoidable sweep in the late game. Oh and by the way, friggin Trinket Mage+Treasure Mage with Venser? You get Grafdiggers into hand, Engine into hand, Myr BattleSphere!
I agree, I should list more blue options in the OP. The mages allow for a pretty vast toolbox. Updated the deck in post 1.
Perhaps you should just send WOTC a resume and tell them why you're better at Magic than one of their employees instead of complaining here, where nobody really has any authority on the matter.
Seems like the deck should want the Geist of Saint Traft and that bladehold knight. The deck might just want to set the field for a turn five swing and win and if not you can set it up for a long term fight with ETB effects. That's the way I think you should go with an aggresive route
Seems like the deck should want the Geist of Saint Traft and that bladehold knight. The deck might just want to set the field for a turn five swing and win and if not you can set it up for a long term fight with ETB effects. That's the way I think you should go with an aggresive route
He certainly can fit the bill of a 5 mana global unblockable sorcery, with the potential of multiple uses! I'll have to pick up some things in the future to make it happen (have no heros and a just a single geist), but efficient creatures with ETB abilities aren't powerful, and efficient creatures with power don't have worthy ETB abilities. Blade Splicer and Sun Titan are the exceptions; I run 4 of one and 1 of the other, but Sun Titan is obviously not in the turn 5 win range.
This really did bleed into tempo/control territory when I fell in love with the turn 4 soft combat lock (or turn 3 if ramp happens). List updated.
Perhaps you should just send WOTC a resume and tell them why you're better at Magic than one of their employees instead of complaining here, where nobody really has any authority on the matter.
Oh, I just meant I doubt I could find them before the next Standard event. My bad. It shall evolve after I've hit some opponents this weekend. Thanks for the tips =)
Perhaps you should just send WOTC a resume and tell them why you're better at Magic than one of their employees instead of complaining here, where nobody really has any authority on the matter.
if you +2 Gideon then bounce him with venser he is a different target when he enters the battlefield thus creatures do not have to attack him on your opponents turn
If a creature controlled by the affected player can't attack Gideon Jura (because he's no longer on the battlefield, for example), that player may have it attack you, another one of your planeswalkers, or nothing at all.
Gatherer says that's not a good idea. It would result in +2 loyalty to Venser for zero effect, you might as well be exiling a basic land... actually a land would be better because you could use it on your opponent's turn. Gideon can be reset every turn if you're using +2, or every turn if you have targets for -2.
Perhaps you should just send WOTC a resume and tell them why you're better at Magic than one of their employees instead of complaining here, where nobody really has any authority on the matter.
I have to recommend you lose Gold Myr and take on Sphere of the Suns. The Myr may be another creature, but mana-ramp that your opponent will likely kill isn't going to serve its purpose as well as it could. I think Sphere will be much more reliable.
Do you really benefit from Intangible Virtue enough to justify playing it? I think most people prefer it when they're running full sets of Midnight Haunting, Gather the Townsfolk and Lingering Souls, and such. I can see this being a weak draw at any stage of the game, because you don't have enough benefit from it.
1 Champion of the Parish? If you want to be aggressive, I'd raise this number and use more humans.
That you run Elesh Norn somewhat confuses me, because normally at 23 land you're not even reliably getting 4 land by turn 4. Sphere of the Suns certainly helps, but I can't imagine you'll be getting her out at a reasonable time for an aggressive game. I probably wouldn't play her unless I had more ramp, more land, or a way to cheat her out, like Faithless Looting + Unburial Rites. I feel the same way about Sun Titan.
If you're playing aggressively, there's no reason not to include Sword of War and Peace.
Should Stonehorn Dignitary be mainboard if your primary plan is beatdown? I suppose you could lock the board until you're ready to -1 for lethal, although it seems like that slot should simply be Hero of Bladehold or something. I would sideboard Stonehorn for matchups where aggro might fail (perhaps Wolf Run), and use something more aggressive, such as hero, mainboard. Otherwise, you may as well have just held back a White Sun's Zenith until you had enough mana to close out the game in a single swing with Venser's -1.
Don't you feel like Mentor of the Meek is overall too expensive to get rolling? He's a 2/2 for 3 mana, and you have to pay 1 mana whenever you get a creature with 1-2 power...sure Venser can blink but if you want to curve out I imagine you won't want to delay playing your creatures with an aggressive strategy so that you can draw a card. And the Mentor isn't aggressive either. Swinging turn 4 for 2 damage isn't very impressive...meanwhile you could be running Mirran Crusader or Geist of Saint Traft for at least twice as much beatdown potential.
What would you think of adding green to ramp into Venser? The list isn't tested but I might build it and play it on cockatrice for a bit tonight for fun.
@Beers: I considered green too, mostly for the evil Acidic Slime, but thought I should see how a mostly pure white build went for simplicity's sake first. So your goal is to use control creatures and rampers to get gavony township online, then turn them all into threats with counters and swing unhindered? Give it a run through, I'd love to see how it goes. If the mana is stable enough to support Aether Adept and Acidic Slime then I think you have some powerful tools. Except the Mayors confuse me; aside from being a great 2-drop you don't run that many humans/wolves/werewolves and he doesn't blink with any value. In fact blinking him on his flip side is a setback. What is your gameplan with him?
@Blue: I have to run right now, but I'm definitely going to come back to your great points. The long story short is: my list is tempo/control until tomorrow when I can buy or trade for some of the things you and others have mentioned; missing them prevents me from really trying the beatdown.
Perhaps you should just send WOTC a resume and tell them why you're better at Magic than one of their employees instead of complaining here, where nobody really has any authority on the matter.
@Beers: I considered green too, mostly for the evil Acidic Slime, but thought I should see how a mostly pure white build went for simplicity's sake first. So your goal is to use control creatures and rampers to get gavony township online, then turn them all into threats with counters and swing unhindered? Give it a run through, I'd love to see how it goes. If the mana is stable enough to support Aether Adept and Acidic Slime then I think you have some powerful tools. Except the Mayors confuse me; aside from being a great 2-drop you don't run that many humans/wolves/werewolves and he doesn't blink with any value. In fact blinking him on his flip side is a setback. What is your gameplan with him?
Yeah the idea would be to get the game stalled with Venser/creatures after ramping until Gavony could pump up smaller creatures for a possible win. As for the mayor there could be a better choice I was mainly looking for a decent Green creature to have in the early game for times the ramp isn't coming together as expected and the deck needs to draw go. (Edit) Plus if it's making tokens for you while you're using Gavony all the better.
Indeed he is the most fragile way to garner a white mana, was testing him in place of the suns because in theory he doesn't run out and can cantrip, which really kicks all kinds of butt. However in the real world I lose a land with one passing whipflare.
re: Intangible Virtue
I have discovered that I do not really focus enough on tokens. Turns out Doomed Traveler is just in because he is one of only a few worthy 1 drops, not because the token he makes is special. For a while when I had twice as many splicers and the Geist-Honored Monk it was a force to be reckoned with but the curve was too high. I halved the token makers so I halved the virtues, but they didn't decrease proportionally in usefulness.
re: Champion of the Parish
It certainly will fit amazingly with Mirran Crusader, Hero of Bladehold, Blade Splicer, and some other cheap powerhouses.
Perhaps you should just send WOTC a resume and tell them why you're better at Magic than one of their employees instead of complaining here, where nobody really has any authority on the matter.
@Beers: Give it a run through, I'd love to see how it goes.
Cosmic - I played the deck four or five best of threes tonight mana wasn't too bad of a problem but it needs work to be able to compete with fast agro decks and or more counters to contend with Whipflare and slagstorms. It's alot of fun when it goes off and I might tweak it a bit more but I'm not sure it can be made seriously competitive. Glissa and ratchet bomb ended up being added along with a couple of swords to help with tokens and agrro creatures.
Also a good two drop Green creature ... Strangleroot giestGG is easy with mana dorks like BoP....I am pretty sure you reset the undying if you blink him. Viridian Emissary the best 2 drop before the giest arrived.
If you stick with white, why not use inquisitor exarch? Good vs aggro decks to buy you time, or good vs control to cut their life down faster. Great with venser.
I have a similar type of white semi-aggro deck that uses mimic vat, exarch is awesome.
Glimmerpost stag can be really useful too. Blink out tokens, red nobles that have counters on them, etc. Really better with vat though, than venser.
Does the Glimmerpoint Stag returning with Venser at our end step blink out one of their targets until the end of THEIR turn because we've passed the trigger point?
As for the deck I ran it played a mediocre game versus Finkle's delver list, everything easily answered by snag, leak, and snapcaster. I got out O-ringed/fiended by humans, decimated by turn 4 with red... It's not in good shape.
Perhaps you should just send WOTC a resume and tell them why you're better at Magic than one of their employees instead of complaining here, where nobody really has any authority on the matter.
For the G\u\w list Aether Adept was swapped for Thrun, the last troll which helped against control/burn decks. Sword of Feast and Famine was dropped for another Sword of war and peace. -1 island +1 swamp. The deck has matched up ok with Esper Delver not as well with G/R aggro. Grixis control was a bad matchup which prompted swapping the adepts out for Thrun. I've not had a chance to retry the match up with Thrun added. If that match up looks better I might start in on a sideboard.
As for other power boosters to the deck, I would consider Strangleroot Geist as another good supporting beater, though he pushes the deck's pushing power. Also Phantasmal Image, which I called being one of the best things to come out of M12, works insanely well in this deck. Takes out opposing Geist of Saint Trafts, copies Strangleroot Geist early to become the next best creature after undying and can then copy Hero of Bladehold for a very lethal two card push, Image and Hero copy = 4 1/1 soldier tokens and 2 3/4 battlecriers which makes for 20 damage even.
So now I'll post a list, untested but just an idea of what the deck could be.
I feel the land count is a little off but playing with WW and GG and UW around turns three can be hard. Otherwise I think the deck is in good order. Divine Reckoning is to give the deck an advantage agaisnt tokens and control the field better, sac everything but Geist and swing for lethal is always a possible option.
Does the Glimmerpoint Stag returning with Venser at our end step blink out one of their targets until the end of THEIR turn because we've passed the trigger point?
Yeah, this works. I had fun back in the day with this interaction, keeping opponents from using their planeswalkers as long as I kept blinking the stag. These days I don't think there's enough to get out of it, since it can't deal with enough of your typical opponent's threats and you won't usually have enough targets on your side to gain extra value. And, you really don't want to use this on enemy Titans.
How about "You may discard your hand, pay 5 life, rip this card, remove 3 digits from any number of target fingers you control, and concede at the end of the next end step rather than pay It Will Go Through!!'s mana cost.
Exclusion Ritual...That is all. Venser makes this thing a house. His +2 becomes Karn's -3.
Thought this thread was meant to focus on aggro, not try and make another Venser control deck thread.
To get back to my untested build, goldfishing proves lethal come turn five most games for my opponent. The damage seems to be consistent, I want to add more control over the board but I want to keep my creature density think, I am feeling like cutting two pilgrims to make room for some spot removal or control options. Probably Oblivion Ring.
Would Viridian Emissary have enough advantages over Strangleroot Geist? Single green, same 2 power before undying, if it DOES die it ramps and fixes mana for the next turn. I know beatdown means racing so 2 power haste with removal insurance and pump is great, but the Emissary gets along better with the white and blue half of the deck.
Perhaps you should just send WOTC a resume and tell them why you're better at Magic than one of their employees instead of complaining here, where nobody really has any authority on the matter.
Would Viridian Emissary have enough advantages over Strangleroot Geist? Single green, same 2 power before undying, if it DOES die it ramps and fixes mana for the next turn. I know beatdown means racing so 2 power haste with removal insurance and pump is great, but the Emissary gets along better with the white and blue half of the deck.
I think the deck needs the idea of every card is a pressure card and forces the opponent to deal with the cards no matter what.
Emissary is easier to cast but,
has no haste
doesn't become a threat
makes Vapor Snag more of a timewalk early game
and it just doesn't give the damage the deck needs.
Making some small changes to the mana accelerators and some other parts, the deck works VERY solid.
Yep takign the deck into the fun direction. The damage of the deck gets insane with a . Blade splicer becomes an insane card, Geist doubles up his angels and Hero of Blade hold becomes effing nuts.
For a damage scaling idea, one Geist and one Hero means 3/2, 5/4, 3/4, 2 2/1's
Parrallel lives added, 3/2, 2 5/4's 3/4, 4 2/1's
A walker whose +2 screams "build around me". Up until now, though, I've mostly seen him tucked neatly into control, leaving his -1 almost entirely ignored. This deck aims to get extreme value out of ETB effects for beating down hard, then throwing armies of unblockables in. Even if your army is hated out Venser's ultimate is so vastly unfair that bouncing lands in topdeck mode can turn the tide.
Let's begin!
Doomed Traveler: a 1-drop that will make a token, which can be a primary source of damage, no interaction with Venser
Champion of the Parish: there are many valuable humans with ETB abilities in this list, Venser can add a lot of extra +1/+1 counters while adding value elsewhere
Birds of Paradise/Avacyn's Pilgrim: dorks to get up to your dangerous fellows faster
2 CMC
Inquisitor Exarch: versatile way to sneak in life loss or buy you some time each turn
Strangleroot Geist: picks off a good amount of life early to put people closer to the limit breaking unblockable swing
Phantasmal Image: might as well be Venser's +2 for 2 mana, amazingly cheap copy of your most ridiculous creature... do not target with Venser
3 CMC
Blade Splicer: Venser, the Golem Factory is just too good, might as well be Garruk, Primal Hunter's +1 when targeted
Mentor of the Meek: cantrips most creatures in this deck
Geist of Saint Traft: Venser's -1 turns this guy into Invisible stalker on steroids
Mirran Crusader: fantastic damage, no interaction with Venser
4 CMC
Phyrexian Metamorph: essentially a 3-drop, another clone for your mightiest face smashers, Venser friendly unlike the image
Solemn Simulacrum: ramp and draw on a body pumped by splicers
Wing Splicer: more golem factories, this time with evasion
Master Splicer: golem factory in anthem form
Dungeon Geists: like the Leonin and Fiend, bigger and flying
Peace Strider/Pierce Strider: non versatile but stronger versions of the Exarch above
Hero of Bladehold: if this card also said unblockable it would be $150, she loves Venser
5 CMC
Geist-Honored Monk: Venser, the Spirit Factory
Acidic Slime: if you get him going with Venser's +2 people rage, true story
Precursor Golem: golem factory, efficient but vulnerable
6 CMC
Sun Titan: extra recursion, could resurrect 2 things turn 6, but not an easy guy to play here
7 CMC
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite: no Venser interaction, and even more difficult than Sun to resolve, but such an incredible card it's hard not to mention, makes tokens insane and wipes the board, there's not many games she doesn't win
Sphinx of Uthuun: +2 fact or fiction, but if this resolves the first time you probably don't need to exile him anymore... it's just... +2 FACT OR FICTION! Don't mind 5/6 flying either
Artifacts
Mycosynth Wellspring/Ichor Wellspring: pure Venser fuel
Trigon of Anything: more Venser fuel, that is, 2 uses per turn and recharges for free
Sphere of the Suns: this feels good powering past the meh 2 and 3 drops to hit a 4 drop t3 and Venser t4, bonus points for recharging with Venser in an emergency
Batterskull: Venser saves you the mana of recasting it for the germ token, all around fantastic card
Enchantments
Intangible Virtue: golems and spirits be loving this
Oblivion Ring: retargetable removal
Bonds of Faith: retargetable pacify, or pump for a the humans
Parallel Lives: if tokens are your game, this can wreak havoc
Planeswalkers
Elspeth Tirel: token machine, exploitable if Venser recharges after -2
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad: anthem machine with Venser recharging, black splash required
Gideon Jura: soaks up to 7 damage every turn if recharged by Venser or a 6/6 unblockable
Garruk Relentless: Venser recharges for 1 or 2 damage to a creature per turn, tutors the finishers and churns out fantastic tokens
Generally you build Venser around permanents
Lingering Souls: tokens! (splash of black)
Timely Reinforcements: tokens, life, conditionally usable
Day of Judgment/Divine Reckoning: Venser hides your biggest threat while you wipe clean, then end your turn with the upper hand
Conditionals:
Slayer of the Wicked: Huntmaster, Olivia, whatever the next scary finisher becomes can be negated by an easy sideboard decision
Leonin Relic-Warder: strong sideboard material, Venser lets him retarget new threats
Fiend Hunter: like the Leonin above
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben: no interaction with Venser, but creatures are strong plays in this deck and really puts the hurt on control and delver
Vital Splicer: the golem factory's cheap answer to removal
Stonehorn Dignitary: the lockdown, even though not in control it is extremely strong, can buy you another turn to build up your mighty unblockable swing
Anti-hate:
Stony Silence: your tokens can be hated out very easily, also neutralizes equipment and other more narrow but present cards
Mana Leak/Negate: the deck can fit some counters for general purposes, Venser draws the hate
3 Island
4 Glacial Fortress
5 Plains
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Forest
2 Moorland Haunt
1 Gavony Township
4 Blade Splicer
3 Wing Splicer
3 Master Splicer
1 Vital Splicer
2 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Oblivion Ring
1 True Conviction
Artifacts: 4
4 Sphere of the Suns
Planeswalkers: 6
3 Garruk Relentless
3 Venser, the Sojourner
4 Rampant Growth
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Razorverge Thicket
6 Forest
3 Hinterland Harbor
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Plains
1 Island
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
3 Strangleroot Geist
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Blade Splicer
4 Mirran Crusader
3 Hero of Bladehold
3 Venser the Sojourner
Enchantments: 3
3 Parallel Lives
Instants: 3
3 Mana Leak
a deck planning to control the game with Venser or eventually win with him, since he is pretty powerful, has to be running sweepers, draw spells (huge once you ultimate) and things to defend with early on.
Spellskite and Stonehorn can shut down just about every aggressive deck in the format, Blade Splicer fits snugly into the 3 slot, you get Mana Leak, Dissipate, O-ring, maybe some more things to bounce for effect, and hold the game down until you can ultimate. Then whenever you play Ponder you are exiling 2 permanents, you do that once and your opponent will probably concede unless they have have you next turn.
oh pfft, i forgot Snapcaster Mage, bouncing him every turn and recasting your spells seems good.
i think Venser has a good deal of potential but he and the rag-tag golem bunch are too slow for an aggressive strategy.
EDIT: Tumble Magnet is very cool with Venser, as well as Contagion Clasp/Engine for recurrable removal and unavoidable sweep in the late game. Oh and by the way, friggin Trinket Mage+Treasure Mage with Venser? You get Grafdiggers into hand, Engine into hand, Myr BattleSphere!
Played with it for a little tonight, and I'll just say I disagree strongly about the -1. Vigilance plus unblockable tokens makes life very difficult for my opponent, especially with first strike for defense.
But I may have been wrong about using the description of beatdown. I'd say maybe this is Venser Tempo?
I agree, I should list more blue options in the OP. The mages allow for a pretty vast toolbox. Updated the deck in post 1.
He certainly can fit the bill of a 5 mana global unblockable sorcery, with the potential of multiple uses! I'll have to pick up some things in the future to make it happen (have no heros and a just a single geist), but efficient creatures with ETB abilities aren't powerful, and efficient creatures with power don't have worthy ETB abilities. Blade Splicer and Sun Titan are the exceptions; I run 4 of one and 1 of the other, but Sun Titan is obviously not in the turn 5 win range.
This really did bleed into tempo/control territory when I fell in love with the turn 4 soft combat lock (or turn 3 if ramp happens). List updated.
Even if that's the case you could build the deck in an Esper Spirit Shell which would be able to swing unopposed come turn five with Venser.
Venser would also find a nice home in a Planewalker control shell if it were to be BUW and he would just be a Lili refresher or sorin refresher.
I am still toying with the idea of a super friends list with Venser, not ready to show it off.
Gatherer says that's not a good idea. It would result in +2 loyalty to Venser for zero effect, you might as well be exiling a basic land... actually a land would be better because you could use it on your opponent's turn. Gideon can be reset every turn if you're using +2, or every turn if you have targets for -2.
Do you really benefit from Intangible Virtue enough to justify playing it? I think most people prefer it when they're running full sets of Midnight Haunting, Gather the Townsfolk and Lingering Souls, and such. I can see this being a weak draw at any stage of the game, because you don't have enough benefit from it.
1 Champion of the Parish? If you want to be aggressive, I'd raise this number and use more humans.
That you run Elesh Norn somewhat confuses me, because normally at 23 land you're not even reliably getting 4 land by turn 4. Sphere of the Suns certainly helps, but I can't imagine you'll be getting her out at a reasonable time for an aggressive game. I probably wouldn't play her unless I had more ramp, more land, or a way to cheat her out, like Faithless Looting + Unburial Rites. I feel the same way about Sun Titan.
If you're playing aggressively, there's no reason not to include Sword of War and Peace.
Should Stonehorn Dignitary be mainboard if your primary plan is beatdown? I suppose you could lock the board until you're ready to -1 for lethal, although it seems like that slot should simply be Hero of Bladehold or something. I would sideboard Stonehorn for matchups where aggro might fail (perhaps Wolf Run), and use something more aggressive, such as hero, mainboard. Otherwise, you may as well have just held back a White Sun's Zenith until you had enough mana to close out the game in a single swing with Venser's -1.
Don't you feel like Mentor of the Meek is overall too expensive to get rolling? He's a 2/2 for 3 mana, and you have to pay 1 mana whenever you get a creature with 1-2 power...sure Venser can blink but if you want to curve out I imagine you won't want to delay playing your creatures with an aggressive strategy so that you can draw a card. And the Mentor isn't aggressive either. Swinging turn 4 for 2 damage isn't very impressive...meanwhile you could be running Mirran Crusader or Geist of Saint Traft for at least twice as much beatdown potential.
2x Stonehorn Dignitary
1x Sun Titan
1x Primeval Titan
2x Æther Adept
2x Acidic Slime
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Daybreak Ranger
4x Mayor of Avabruck
2x Gavony Township
4x Hinterland Harbor
2x Plains
3x Island
8x Forest
4x Rampant growth
4x Mana Leak
1x Negate
3x green sun's zenith
Venser Targets:
Solemn - Land Filtering
Stonehorn - Combat lock
Aether adept - Creature Bounce
Acidic Slime - Land destruction etc...
Sun Titan - Permanent recycling
Primeval Titan - Land filtering
Take it easy
Jay
@Blue: I have to run right now, but I'm definitely going to come back to your great points. The long story short is: my list is tempo/control until tomorrow when I can buy or trade for some of the things you and others have mentioned; missing them prevents me from really trying the beatdown.
Yeah the idea would be to get the game stalled with Venser/creatures after ramping until Gavony could pump up smaller creatures for a possible win. As for the mayor there could be a better choice I was mainly looking for a decent Green creature to have in the early game for times the ramp isn't coming together as expected and the deck needs to draw go. (Edit) Plus if it's making tokens for you while you're using Gavony all the better.
Take it easy
Jay
Here's one of my sample gold fish draws at:
http://deckstats.net/index.php?lng=en
T1 Hinterland Harbor
T2 Plains, Rampant growth, get Forest
T3 Hinterland Harbor, Solemn, get Plains
T4 Acidic Slime (Destroy land)
T5 Venser Blink Slime(Destroy land)
T6 Play forest, cast Stonehorn, Blink slime (Destroy land, Combat lock)
T7 Blink Stonehorn (six mana available cards in hand BoP, GSZ, and Solemn)
Indeed he is the most fragile way to garner a white mana, was testing him in place of the suns because in theory he doesn't run out and can cantrip, which really kicks all kinds of butt. However in the real world I lose a land with one passing whipflare.
re: Intangible Virtue
I have discovered that I do not really focus enough on tokens. Turns out Doomed Traveler is just in because he is one of only a few worthy 1 drops, not because the token he makes is special. For a while when I had twice as many splicers and the Geist-Honored Monk it was a force to be reckoned with but the curve was too high. I halved the token makers so I halved the virtues, but they didn't decrease proportionally in usefulness.
re: Champion of the Parish
It certainly will fit amazingly with Mirran Crusader, Hero of Bladehold, Blade Splicer, and some other cheap powerhouses.
re: Stonehorn Dignitary, Mentor of the Meek, Sun Titan and Elesh Norn
Would not make the cut in an aggressive build, Venser would not care for their advantages at all going for a turn 5-6 win.
Cosmic - I played the deck four or five best of threes tonight mana wasn't too bad of a problem but it needs work to be able to compete with fast agro decks and or more counters to contend with Whipflare and slagstorms. It's alot of fun when it goes off and I might tweak it a bit more but I'm not sure it can be made seriously competitive. Glissa and ratchet bomb ended up being added along with a couple of swords to help with tokens and agrro creatures.
Take it easy
Jay
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Daybreak Ranger
2 Glissa, the Traitor
2 AEther Adept
3 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Stonehorn Dignitary
2 Acidic Slime
1 Primeval Titan
2 Sun Titan
4 Mana Leak
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Venser, the Sojourner
4 Sunpetal Grove
2 Gavony Township
1 Plains
2 Island
7 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
Also a good two drop Green creature ... Strangleroot giest GG is easy with mana dorks like BoP....I am pretty sure you reset the undying if you blink him. Viridian Emissary the best 2 drop before the giest arrived.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I have a similar type of white semi-aggro deck that uses mimic vat, exarch is awesome.
Glimmerpost stag can be really useful too. Blink out tokens, red nobles that have counters on them, etc. Really better with vat though, than venser.
As for the deck I ran it played a mediocre game versus Finkle's delver list, everything easily answered by snag, leak, and snapcaster. I got out O-ringed/fiended by humans, decimated by turn 4 with red... It's not in good shape.
Take it easy
Jay
You have 8 one mana accelerators, Birds of Paradise and Avacyn's Pilgrim to power one of your 12 3cc monsters, Geist of Saint Traft and Mirrian Crusader and Blade Splicer.
Add to that a 4cc finisher, Hero of Bladehold the deck looks solid.
The reason for the Hero is it works insanely well with a Venser -1 and that global unblock for a Geist and hero is 15 damage.
As for other power boosters to the deck, I would consider Strangleroot Geist as another good supporting beater, though he pushes the deck's pushing power. Also Phantasmal Image, which I called being one of the best things to come out of M12, works insanely well in this deck. Takes out opposing Geist of Saint Trafts, copies Strangleroot Geist early to become the next best creature after undying and can then copy Hero of Bladehold for a very lethal two card push, Image and Hero copy = 4 1/1 soldier tokens and 2 3/4 battlecriers which makes for 20 damage even.
So now I'll post a list, untested but just an idea of what the deck could be.
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Strangleroot Geist
3 Phantasmal Image
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Blade Splicer
4 Mirran Crusader
3 Hero of Bladehold
3 Divine Reckoning
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Razorverge Thicket
6 Forest
3 Hinterland Harbor
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Plains
1 Island
I feel the land count is a little off but playing with WW and GG and UW around turns three can be hard. Otherwise I think the deck is in good order. Divine Reckoning is to give the deck an advantage agaisnt tokens and control the field better, sac everything but Geist and swing for lethal is always a possible option.
Yeah, this works. I had fun back in the day with this interaction, keeping opponents from using their planeswalkers as long as I kept blinking the stag. These days I don't think there's enough to get out of it, since it can't deal with enough of your typical opponent's threats and you won't usually have enough targets on your side to gain extra value. And, you really don't want to use this on enemy Titans.
Thought this thread was meant to focus on aggro, not try and make another Venser control deck thread.
To get back to my untested build, goldfishing proves lethal come turn five most games for my opponent. The damage seems to be consistent, I want to add more control over the board but I want to keep my creature density think, I am feeling like cutting two pilgrims to make room for some spot removal or control options. Probably Oblivion Ring.
I think the deck needs the idea of every card is a pressure card and forces the opponent to deal with the cards no matter what.
Emissary is easier to cast but,
has no haste
doesn't become a threat
makes Vapor Snag more of a timewalk early game
and it just doesn't give the damage the deck needs.
Making some small changes to the mana accelerators and some other parts, the deck works VERY solid.
changes:
-1 Pilgrim
-1 Image
-1 Strangleroot Geist
-3 Divine wrecks
+3 Mana Leak
+3 Parrallel Lives
Yep takign the deck into the fun direction. The damage of the deck gets insane with a . Blade splicer becomes an insane card, Geist doubles up his angels and Hero of Blade hold becomes effing nuts.
For a damage scaling idea, one Geist and one Hero means 3/2, 5/4, 3/4, 2 2/1's
Parrallel lives added, 3/2, 2 5/4's 3/4, 4 2/1's