I'm not certain if this post is in the right place; if it's not, I apologize. I was a bit surprised to find that there was not a dedicated 2HG section in these forums).
My wife and I were just invited to a 2HG tournament (standard constructed decks) this coming Friday. The problem is that we're inexperienced with the format, and I have very limited time for deckbuilding and playtesting this week. Tuning one deck to run smooth is always a challenge, and trying to put together a matched pair in short time seems a particularly daunting task, so I was hoping I could appeal to the community for a bit of help and advice to get us started.
My wife has a harder time learning new decks, so I'd like to stick to something she is familiar with. She typically plays a R/B Vampire aggro deck, or she could dust off the Tempered Steel. In the past, she has had some success with various infect builds as well. Her playstyle basically fits fast aggro the best, while I can run just about anything with a little practice. Would any of these decks (or anything similar) work well enough for 2HG? What sort of decks would make a good compliment to these for me to play? Any advice would be welcomed, and links to sample decklists would be very much appreciated.
I think I might trying pairing Tempered Steel or B/u(r) Zombies with Grixis Control personally. TS is nice since basically anyone can luck wins with it, but it's also much more explosive than a deck like Vampires. Vamps is just terrible in the current meta really, since you're playing with piss-poor creatures (compared to stuff like Delver of Secrets, Drogskol Captain, Geist of Saint Traft, Huntmaster of the Fells and Primeval Titan that is) and you don't have an explosive early game nor an amazing late game. You're just playing a bad deck.
I like pairing an aggro deck with Grixis Control for many reasons. First of all, a Grixis deck can field the 2 "powerhouse" finishers in the form of Exsanguinate and Slagstorm. For trivial amounts of mana these cards can do an insane amount of damage to the opposing team, which, when paired an explosive deck like TS or Zombies, can end games before the other team can do whatever it is that they're trying to do. The reason why I like the TS pairing is because it lets you maindeck Whipflare (which is amazing in the current meta IMO), and since you should have Corrosive Gale in the SB, your Delver/Spirit MU should be fairly strong. Whip Flare is amazing against Frites (nail their mana dorks), G/R aggro (nails Huntmasters and whatnot, just hope that they don't rip too many Hellriders), Delver, Spirits, Zombies, everything really. It's just a good card. Black brings the obvious Black removal such as Doom Blade and Go for the Throat, and also gives you access to all-important Curse of Death's Hold. Throw in Blue for Desperate Ravings, Think Twice, Forbidden Alchemy maybe a few Mana Leaks (Negates in the SB probably) and you have yourself a deck.
TS is a good pairing since it ignores things like maindeck Whipflare from your Grixis ally, and does a whole whack off damage fairly quickly. With Gavony Township you should have a decent end game plan, since most of your cards should become serious threats over time. The deck also has a lot of evasion, which never hurts at pushing those last few points through. It's also important to note that cards like Glint Hawk Idol, Etched Champion, Origin Spellbomb and Hero of Bladehold all dodge Slagstorm too (even w/o TS that is). So like, your ally's mass removal really isn't going to phase you at all.
Zombies is the other potential pairing since it has good reach. Between Geralf's Messenger, Gravecrawler and Mortarpod you can shoot people for a ton of damage over time. Toss in Diregraf Captain and Phantasmal Image/Phyrexian Metamorph and you can really do a number on people. Red is the other potential splash for cards such as Brimstone Volley since the deck is Morbid at all times. Either way the key is bringing a lot of reach to the deck.
Good suggestions, thanks. I'm usually wary of running three color decks, just because of the difficulty in setting up a reliable mana base, but I'll see what I can do. I also realized that my collection of NPH cards is lacking, so I'll have to see if I have or can get whipflares on time. I do like the synergy with the TS deck though; one-sided board sweeps are always fun!
3 color decks are fairly trivial at this point. You have a whack of duals and Evolving Wilds at your disposal, and cards like Desperate Ravings and Think Twice can easily smooth your draws if needed. The deck could also just be a straight R/B Control deck since the Blue only brings counters and draw; neither of which are essential.
I like pairing an aggro deck with Grixis Control for many reasons. First of all, a Grixis deck can field the 2 "powerhouse" finishers in the form of Exsanguinate and Slagstorm. For trivial amounts of mana these cards can do an insane amount of damage to the opposing team, which, when paired an explosive deck like TS or Zombies, can end games before the other team can do whatever it is that they're trying to do. The reason why I like the TS pairing is because it lets you maindeck Whipflare (which is amazing in the current meta IMO), and since you should have Corrosive Gale in the SB, your Delver/Spirit MU should be fairly strong. Whip Flare is amazing against Frites (nail their mana dorks), G/R aggro (nails Huntmasters and whatnot, just hope that they don't rip too many Hellriders), Delver, Spirits, Zombies, everything really. It's just a good card. Black brings the obvious Black removal such as Doom Blade and Go for the Throat, and also gives you access to all-important Curse of Death's Hold. Throw in Blue for Desperate Ravings, Think Twice, Forbidden Alchemy maybe a few Mana Leaks (Negates in the SB probably) and you have yourself a deck.
I've been looking over some deck lists, and so far I like what I'm seeing of Grixis control. Curse of Death's Hold does seem to be a major player, but I'm wondering if in a 2HG situation, Massacre Wurm might not be a better option since it will hit both opponents, or is the BBB going to be too difficult to get?
Also, most decks don't seem to run more than 1-2 Whipflare in the main. Do you think that 2x would be sufficient in this deck pairing, or would I need to up that?
So here is what I've thrown together just after looking around a bit. I still need to test it, this is all conceptual at the moment. I basically just took pieces that I liked from other decklists and tried to fit them together as best as I could.
I'm sure that the mana base will need some tweaking once I get to testing. I thought about Liliana of the Veil, but I think forcing the discard may cause too many problems with my partner's deck. I'll have to sort out the sideboard once we get the TS deck together so I can figure how best to cover each other's weaknesses. Any thoughts would be appreciated!
3 Dissipates seems like too many. I'd say 1-2 tops. At 1UU it's almost impossible to cast early on; you're looking for Leak to do that.
Red Sun's Zenith is cute but completely worthless in my mind. Exsang is a much better finisher, and you have far better options for spot removal.
I like the Massacre Wum idea if you think your meta will be aggro/token heavy. It could easily be a Damnation + Searing Wind for 6 mana. The mana cost is a bit obtrusive though, so you might have to test it. 1-2 copies max obviously. I'm also thinking that Consecrated Sphinx would be the nuts. Drawing 4 extra cards per turn seems absurd.
The only other advice that I want to offer is that you should take my advice with a grain of salt (the irony!). I've never played 2HG competitively and so I have no idea how this combination will actually pan out in practice. I like the theory of hitting fast and early and then finishing the job with Exsanguinate, but for all I know it's complete trash. I play a lot of multiplayer, but not a lot of 2HG, so it's really hard to give informed opinions with actual evidence to support the claims being made. They're just theories at this point.
I see what you're saying about Dissipate, that was more of just what I'd seen some other decks using. However, I'm cutting back a bit on the blue to try to smooth the curve (hence no Blue Sun's Zenith) , so cutting that back makes sense.
Other decks have been running Red Sun because of the exile effect, it's one more way of dealing with pesky graveyard recursion. Still, my wife's deck will be running Dispatch and possibly Oblivion Ring, so that may not be necessary.
I hadn't really considered Consecrated Sphinx, once again because I was trying to go a bit lighter with the blue requirements, but I didn't consider the double draw trigger each turn. Your right, that could get seriously nuts!
I really do like Exsanguinate, as in 2HG, it gets you double the damage. That's why I tossed in two copies, but with all of the draw, I wonder if one would be enough?
Speaking of draw, do you have any thoughts about Desperate Ravings? I hadn't found room for it before, figuring that Think Twice was a better card on its own, but I'm wondering if I need another draw card or two.
I've actually been reconsidering Blue Sun's Zenith, because in a pinch, I could target my partner for the draw to refill her hand. Still, UUU seems a bit prohibitive.
As for the TS deck, we were thinking of splashing green for Gavony Township. If we do that, then the question is whether it is better to sideboard Revoke Existence for the exile, or Naturalize for the instant speed. Green sources would probably only be 3-4 Razorverge Thickets and 3 Mox Opals, so it may not be reliable enough to run too many copies of Naturalize, but the speed can be so useful at times.
Tonight I should have some time to put this together and do a bit of testing, so I'll see how it shapes up. Thanks again for the ideas! If nothing else, I think this will be a fun combo to play.
After some more thinking, I've adjusted the decklist:
It's beginning to feel a bit creature heavy though, and I'm thinking of moving Olivia to the SB (or cutting entirely) in favor of either more removal or draw.
Def use the Gavonys in the TS list. Run Revoke Existence in the SB because it exiles Wurmcoils and prevents Buried Ruin shenanigans.
I'm seen Ravings used over Think Twice before in Grixis Control decks, such as the one that Patrick Chapin ran. I think it's more an either-or and not both.
Okay, I've seen some lists running 4 Think Twice along with 2 Desperate Ravings. I've just never been crazy about the random discard, so if I can get by without it, I will.
I've cross-posted the decklist in a Grixis control thread (here), so I'll see if that generates any other thoughts.
Well, I've done some testing and reworked the deck a little bit. First off, I thought I had a Consecrated Sphinx in my collection, but I couldn't find it, so I think I must have traded it. I'm trying to see if I can get one before the event, but for now I'll have to run without it. Also, I could only locate one Slagstorm. I'm sure I've got a couple more, but I think they have been misplaced since we moved recently.
The build was a little creature heavy, so in addition to the missing Sphinx, I pulled one Olivia out. Also, while running alongside TS, I never really liked having Black Sun's Zenith in my hand, as it disrupted our board presence a bit too much. I'll keep it in the side in case I need a heavy sweeper, but I don't think it belongs in the main.
Exsanguinate is amazing; one of my favorite tricks is once I have 7 or 8 mana on the table, Exsanguinate for 5 or 6 damage (10 or 12 total in 2HG), and then on the next turn, drop a Snapcaster Mage and Exsanguinate again! It's an easy way to get 20+ damage out in two turns. Still, I think that I only need one in the deck, so I reduced that.
In place of these cards, I added a little more targeted removal and one more counter (Negate). Here is the deck as it looks now:
The mana base still needs some work. I adjusted it before because I was having trouble getting BB and BBB when I needed it, but then I always seemed to be short on R for Whipflare and Slagstorm. So I've changed it to what you see here, but the balance still feels off. This is why I have trouble with three color decks in the current format. It still works reasonably well, but it is prone to missing a turn here and there due to mana trouble. I'll play with it some more and see if I can smooth it out.
For comparison, here is the TS deck that we worked up:
We've discovered that Signal Pest + Grave Titan can be a lot of fun, since Battle Cry is worded to affect all attacking creatures, not just ones that you control. All in all, these two decks make a pretty fun combination. Thanks Cz for the suggestion!
MD Shrine in TS? That seems really outdated to me. It's a very passive card designed to trump Control decks and come over the top of aggro mirrors, but it's not very useful in many MUs. You don't want to be dropping a Shrine against a flipped Delver on turn 2. I would put something else in that slot. The 4th Dispatch seems like a must, and even an O-Ring could be added to the MD (as an answer to Swords which wreck both decks). Glint Hawk isn't bad, especially if you're on the township plan. It pairs very well with your Opals after all. More Spellbombs, more Opals, all of these are better options than MD Shrines.
(<- Coming from someone who's been playing TS for the entire Standard season.)
Your'e right about the shrine in the MD, it's a throwback to an older version of the deck we hadn't used in months; old habits die hard and all. I'll consider moving it to the SB.
As for Glint Hawk, we tried it out and didn't really like the way it was playing. Yes, it got some early damage in, but it didn't get the benefites of TS, and my Whipflares would always wipe them out anyway, so we opted to put in Porcelain Legionnaire instead.
As good point about the Whipflare. I was just thinking about TS in a vacuum and what cards I would play over Shrines in the MD. It doesn't make much sense to add them in this instance.
What do you think of putting one or two Steel Sabotage in the Grixis SB? I was thinking it might be good against swords, Wurmcoil, Batterskull, etc., and in a pinch it could be used to protect one of the TS deck's creatures from removal; maybe bouncing something just before I drop a Slagstorm. The potential for tricks is there, I just don't know if it would be useful enough to warrant a SB slot.
What do you think of putting one or two Steel Sabotage in the Grixis SB? I was thinking it might be good against swords, Wurmcoil, Batterskull, etc., and in a pinch it could be used to protect one of the TS deck's creatures from removal; maybe bouncing something just before I drop a Slagstorm. The potential for tricks is there, I just don't know if it would be useful enough to warrant a SB slot.
That seems like a very narrow card. I don't see how you could justify multiple SB slots for it. Seems a bit too fancy when your ally can simply run O-Ring and Revoke Existence in hers.
What you say about Negate is true, I just felt like the deck needed another counter, and I hate running four Mana Leaks, just because they tend to become so irrelevant in the late game.
I originally put in the Blue Sun to take the place of the missing Sphinx, so it would probably be the logical choice. However, in testing BSZ has been particularly useful at times, both in refilling my own hand, or in helping my partner, as TS often runs low on cards in hand in the late game. Also, the deck has quite a few 6 drop creatures already, and I hesitate to increase that count. I wonder if it would be worth swapping out Olivia or one of the Grave Titans for the Sphinx.
What you say about Negate is true, I just felt like the deck needed another counter, and I hate running four Mana Leaks, just because they tend to become so irrelevant in the late game.
I originally put in the Blue Sun to take the place of the missing Sphinx, so it would probably be the logical choice. However, in testing BSZ has been particularly useful at times, both in refilling my own hand, or in helping my partner, as TS often runs low on cards in hand in the late game. Also, the deck has quite a few 6 drop creatures already, and I hesitate to increase that count. I wonder if it would be worth swapping out Olivia or one of the Grave Titans for the Sphinx.
What I like about Leak in 2HG is that it's much harder to blank. While I agree that Leak can become stone-dead in duels, that typically isn't a concern in team formats. If you can Timewalk both players for a zillion turns so they can play around Leak, laugh your ass off and count the money.
You could cut a G.Titan if you wanted. You really don't have that many 6 drops tbh, so adding another shouldn't kill you, but the G man could stand to go.
I suppose it just depends on whether I'd rather see the Sphinx or Grave Titan in hand. The titan makes a great finisher, but maybe one is enough. Or I guess I could move Massacre Wurm to the side; he makes a nice play, but he might be less useful if both opponents aren't running a lot of small critters.
Well, we had the tournament last night, and all in all, it was pretty successful. The decks were loads of fun to play, and we had some really good games. We ended up going 3-1 for 4th place. Our one loss was to a pair of aggro decks (spirits and vampires). They hit hard and fast, and I got royally mana screwed (having to use Ghost Quarter on myself just to get the right color of land is always a bad sign!).
Exsanguinate wins games! We were having a tough match against RDW and U/B Zombie control. They were still at 24 life and we had been down to 2 for a few turns in a row, our creatures staring at each other across the battlefield in a stalemate, and we were just anticipating another burn spell. I got a Wurmcoil Engine on the table and managed to get our life back up to 8, then I Forbidden Alchemy'd into Exsanguinate. I dumped BB5 into that for a total of a 20 point life swing, putting us at 18 and them at 14. After that, we swung in with everything: a couple fatties on my side, and a few artifacts with two Tempered Steels, some Gavony Township counters, and a Battle Cry trigger for my ally. It was one of those games that was just really fun and exciting the whole way through.
What I didn't know beforehand is that we were only doing single game matches, so the sideboards were useless anyway. If I had known that going in, I might have made a few changes to the decks just to have a little more variety in the answers available. Mostly, I probably would have squeezed in some artifact/enchantment hate. Graveyard hate probably wouldn't habe been a bad idea, as we faced two decks running Geralf's Messenger and his ilk. Of course, I was going into a fairly unknown meta, so I wasn't sure what to expect.
I did end up just dropping the Negate for the Consecrated Sphinx, but he never made it to the table all night. I had him in my hand once, along with two other finishers that were just better options at that point. In testing, Grave Titan was my primary finisher, but I never drew either copy. Massacre Wurm ended up being a major player, as did Olivia Voldaren, both helping to clear the board improve our position.
Anyway, it was a lot of fun, and out of the decks I saw, we had one of the most coordinated strategies. It's definitely a format I'd like to do again sometime. Thanks again Cz for all the help bouncing ideas around!
You know, I knew that 2HG games were always BO1, so I don't know why it never crossed my mind to say anything. Glad to hear the tourney went. 3-1 is respectable all things considered.
Well, I've done some testing and reworked the deck a little bit. First off, I thought I had a Consecrated Sphinx in my collection, but I couldn't find it, so I think I must have traded it. I'm trying to see if I can get one before the event, but for now I'll have to run without it. Also, I could only locate one Slagstorm. I'm sure I've got a couple more, but I think they have been misplaced since we moved recently.
The build was a little creature heavy, so in addition to the missing Sphinx, I pulled one Olivia out. Also, while running alongside TS, I never really liked having Black Sun's Zenith in my hand, as it disrupted our board presence a bit too much. I'll keep it in the side in case I need a heavy sweeper, but I don't think it belongs in the main.
Exsanguinate is amazing; one of my favorite tricks is once I have 7 or 8 mana on the table, Exsanguinate for 5 or 6 damage (10 or 12 total in 2HG), and then on the next turn, drop a Snapcaster Mage and Exsanguinate again! It's an easy way to get 20+ damage out in two turns. Still, I think that I only need one in the deck, so I reduced that.
In place of these cards, I added a little more targeted removal and one more counter (Negate). Here is the deck as it looks now:
The mana base still needs some work. I adjusted it before because I was having trouble getting BB and BBB when I needed it, but then I always seemed to be short on R for Whipflare and Slagstorm. So I've changed it to what you see here, but the balance still feels off. This is why I have trouble with three color decks in the current format. It still works reasonably well, but it is prone to missing a turn here and there due to mana trouble. I'll play with it some more and see if I can smooth it out.
For comparison, here is the TS deck that we worked up:
We've discovered that Signal Pest + Grave Titan can be a lot of fun, since Battle Cry is worded to affect all attacking creatures, not just ones that you control. All in all, these two decks make a pretty fun combination. Thanks Cz for the suggestion!
I'll be reviving these decks for another Standard 2HG game in the near future. I'm doing a bit of research, but does anyone happen to know of any AVR cards that should make their way into these?
Since with 2HG, there are no sideboards, I was considering trying to squeeze in some maindeck artifact/enchantment hate, such as Revoke Existence in the TS deck, or maybe Ancient Grudge in Grixis (although I can't flashback it). I also thought about tossing in a couple of Corrosive Gales, which could go in either deck (TS has the green mana, but Grixis would have more mana to pump into it), but I'm not really sure what I'd cut to run any of this.
Another thought I had was maybe trying Killing Wave as a 1 of (Killing Wave + Massacre Wurm = Catch 22 for opponents ;)), but again, there's a lot of good stuff in there already, and it's tough to cut any of it over another board wiper.
Another thought I had was maybe trying Killing Wave as a 1 of (Killing Wave + Massacre Wurm = Catch 22 for opponents ;)), but again, there's a lot of good stuff in there already, and it's tough to cut any of it over another board wiper.
Killing Wave isn't a board wiper. It's a nothing. Your opponents will always pick the outcome that favors them the most. Paying life (especially when you have 30 of it) to keep your best creatures in play is always worthwhile, so you're basically just paying for like a Searing Flesh or whatever. That's not what a Control deck wants. Do not run it.
My wife and I were just invited to a 2HG tournament (standard constructed decks) this coming Friday. The problem is that we're inexperienced with the format, and I have very limited time for deckbuilding and playtesting this week. Tuning one deck to run smooth is always a challenge, and trying to put together a matched pair in short time seems a particularly daunting task, so I was hoping I could appeal to the community for a bit of help and advice to get us started.
My wife has a harder time learning new decks, so I'd like to stick to something she is familiar with. She typically plays a R/B Vampire aggro deck, or she could dust off the Tempered Steel. In the past, she has had some success with various infect builds as well. Her playstyle basically fits fast aggro the best, while I can run just about anything with a little practice. Would any of these decks (or anything similar) work well enough for 2HG? What sort of decks would make a good compliment to these for me to play? Any advice would be welcomed, and links to sample decklists would be very much appreciated.
Thanks in advance!
I like pairing an aggro deck with Grixis Control for many reasons. First of all, a Grixis deck can field the 2 "powerhouse" finishers in the form of Exsanguinate and Slagstorm. For trivial amounts of mana these cards can do an insane amount of damage to the opposing team, which, when paired an explosive deck like TS or Zombies, can end games before the other team can do whatever it is that they're trying to do. The reason why I like the TS pairing is because it lets you maindeck Whipflare (which is amazing in the current meta IMO), and since you should have Corrosive Gale in the SB, your Delver/Spirit MU should be fairly strong. Whip Flare is amazing against Frites (nail their mana dorks), G/R aggro (nails Huntmasters and whatnot, just hope that they don't rip too many Hellriders), Delver, Spirits, Zombies, everything really. It's just a good card. Black brings the obvious Black removal such as Doom Blade and Go for the Throat, and also gives you access to all-important Curse of Death's Hold. Throw in Blue for Desperate Ravings, Think Twice, Forbidden Alchemy maybe a few Mana Leaks (Negates in the SB probably) and you have yourself a deck.
TS is a good pairing since it ignores things like maindeck Whipflare from your Grixis ally, and does a whole whack off damage fairly quickly. With Gavony Township you should have a decent end game plan, since most of your cards should become serious threats over time. The deck also has a lot of evasion, which never hurts at pushing those last few points through. It's also important to note that cards like Glint Hawk Idol, Etched Champion, Origin Spellbomb and Hero of Bladehold all dodge Slagstorm too (even w/o TS that is). So like, your ally's mass removal really isn't going to phase you at all.
Zombies is the other potential pairing since it has good reach. Between Geralf's Messenger, Gravecrawler and Mortarpod you can shoot people for a ton of damage over time. Toss in Diregraf Captain and Phantasmal Image/Phyrexian Metamorph and you can really do a number on people. Red is the other potential splash for cards such as Brimstone Volley since the deck is Morbid at all times. Either way the key is bringing a lot of reach to the deck.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I've been looking over some deck lists, and so far I like what I'm seeing of Grixis control. Curse of Death's Hold does seem to be a major player, but I'm wondering if in a 2HG situation, Massacre Wurm might not be a better option since it will hit both opponents, or is the BBB going to be too difficult to get?
Also, most decks don't seem to run more than 1-2 Whipflare in the main. Do you think that 2x would be sufficient in this deck pairing, or would I need to up that?
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grave Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Olivia Voldaren
Removal Spells (11)
2 Whipflare
2 Slagstorm
1 Go for the Throat
1 Tribute to Hunger
2 Tragic Slip
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Red Sun's Zenith
3 Mana Leak
3 Dissipate
Draw Spells (7)
4 Think Twice
3 Forbidden Alchemy
Other Spells (2)
2 Exsanguinate
Lands (26)
3 Drowned Catacomb
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Sulfur Falls
3 Evolving Wilds
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Mountain
4 Island
3 Swamp
I'm sure that the mana base will need some tweaking once I get to testing. I thought about Liliana of the Veil, but I think forcing the discard may cause too many problems with my partner's deck. I'll have to sort out the sideboard once we get the TS deck together so I can figure how best to cover each other's weaknesses. Any thoughts would be appreciated!
Red Sun's Zenith is cute but completely worthless in my mind. Exsang is a much better finisher, and you have far better options for spot removal.
I like the Massacre Wum idea if you think your meta will be aggro/token heavy. It could easily be a Damnation + Searing Wind for 6 mana. The mana cost is a bit obtrusive though, so you might have to test it. 1-2 copies max obviously. I'm also thinking that Consecrated Sphinx would be the nuts. Drawing 4 extra cards per turn seems absurd.
Must have SB cards, in my mind, include: Flashfreeze (2 copies maybe), Negate (1 copy or so), Corrosive Gale (3-4 copies), Nihil Spellbomb (1-3), Whipflare (1-2 copies), Ratchet Bomb (1-2 of them) and of course some more Curse of Death's Hold (you definitely want 3 between the MD and SB).
Your ally should probably have Timely Reinforcements, Shrine of Loyal Legions, Celestial Purge, Revoke Existence and Hero of Bladehold (possibly).
The only other advice that I want to offer is that you should take my advice with a grain of salt (the irony!). I've never played 2HG competitively and so I have no idea how this combination will actually pan out in practice. I like the theory of hitting fast and early and then finishing the job with Exsanguinate, but for all I know it's complete trash. I play a lot of multiplayer, but not a lot of 2HG, so it's really hard to give informed opinions with actual evidence to support the claims being made. They're just theories at this point.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Other decks have been running Red Sun because of the exile effect, it's one more way of dealing with pesky graveyard recursion. Still, my wife's deck will be running Dispatch and possibly Oblivion Ring, so that may not be necessary.
I hadn't really considered Consecrated Sphinx, once again because I was trying to go a bit lighter with the blue requirements, but I didn't consider the double draw trigger each turn. Your right, that could get seriously nuts!
I really do like Exsanguinate, as in 2HG, it gets you double the damage. That's why I tossed in two copies, but with all of the draw, I wonder if one would be enough?
Speaking of draw, do you have any thoughts about Desperate Ravings? I hadn't found room for it before, figuring that Think Twice was a better card on its own, but I'm wondering if I need another draw card or two.
I've actually been reconsidering Blue Sun's Zenith, because in a pinch, I could target my partner for the draw to refill her hand. Still, UUU seems a bit prohibitive.
As for the TS deck, we were thinking of splashing green for Gavony Township. If we do that, then the question is whether it is better to sideboard Revoke Existence for the exile, or Naturalize for the instant speed. Green sources would probably only be 3-4 Razorverge Thickets and 3 Mox Opals, so it may not be reliable enough to run too many copies of Naturalize, but the speed can be so useful at times.
Tonight I should have some time to put this together and do a bit of testing, so I'll see how it shapes up. Thanks again for the ideas! If nothing else, I think this will be a fun combo to play.
After some more thinking, I've adjusted the decklist:
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grave Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Olivia Voldaren
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Massacre Wurm
Removal Spells (10)
2 Whipflare
2 Slagstorm
1 Go for the Throat
1 Tribute to Hunger
2 Tragic Slip
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Black Sun's Zenith
3 Mana Leak
2 Dissipate
Draw Spells (7)
4 Think Twice
3 Forbidden Alchemy
Other Spells (2)
2 Exsanguinate
Lands (26)
3 Drowned Catacomb
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Sulfur Falls
3 Evolving Wilds
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Mountain
4 Island
3 Swamp
It's beginning to feel a bit creature heavy though, and I'm thinking of moving Olivia to the SB (or cutting entirely) in favor of either more removal or draw.
I'm seen Ravings used over Think Twice before in Grixis Control decks, such as the one that Patrick Chapin ran. I think it's more an either-or and not both.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I've cross-posted the decklist in a Grixis control thread (here), so I'll see if that generates any other thoughts.
The build was a little creature heavy, so in addition to the missing Sphinx, I pulled one Olivia out. Also, while running alongside TS, I never really liked having Black Sun's Zenith in my hand, as it disrupted our board presence a bit too much. I'll keep it in the side in case I need a heavy sweeper, but I don't think it belongs in the main.
Exsanguinate is amazing; one of my favorite tricks is once I have 7 or 8 mana on the table, Exsanguinate for 5 or 6 damage (10 or 12 total in 2HG), and then on the next turn, drop a Snapcaster Mage and Exsanguinate again! It's an easy way to get 20+ damage out in two turns. Still, I think that I only need one in the deck, so I reduced that.
In place of these cards, I added a little more targeted removal and one more counter (Negate). Here is the deck as it looks now:
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grave Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Olivia Voldaren
1 Massacre Wurm
Removal Spells (11)
3 Whipflare
1 Slagstorm
2 Go for the Throat
1 Tribute to Hunger
2 Tragic Slip
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Devil's Play
3 Mana Leak
1 Negate
2 Dissipate
Draw Spells (8)
4 Think Twice
3 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
Other Spells (1)
1 Exsanguinate
Lands (26)
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Dragonskull Summit
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Sulfur Falls
3 Evolving Wilds
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Mountain
4 Island
3 Swamp
The mana base still needs some work. I adjusted it before because I was having trouble getting BB and BBB when I needed it, but then I always seemed to be short on R for Whipflare and Slagstorm. So I've changed it to what you see here, but the balance still feels off. This is why I have trouble with three color decks in the current format. It still works reasonably well, but it is prone to missing a turn here and there due to mana trouble. I'll play with it some more and see if I can smooth it out.
For comparison, here is the TS deck that we worked up:
4 Memnite
4 Signal Pest
4 Vault Skirge
4 Porcelain Legionnaire
4 Etched Champion
2 Origin Spellbomb
3 Mox Opal
4 Glint Hawk Idol
3 Shrine of Loyal Legions
Spells (7)
4 Tempered Steel
3 Dispatch
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Razorverge Thicket
1 Sunpetal Grove
3 Gavony Township
9 Plains
We've discovered that Signal Pest + Grave Titan can be a lot of fun, since Battle Cry is worded to affect all attacking creatures, not just ones that you control. All in all, these two decks make a pretty fun combination. Thanks Cz for the suggestion!
(<- Coming from someone who's been playing TS for the entire Standard season.)
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
As for Glint Hawk, we tried it out and didn't really like the way it was playing. Yes, it got some early damage in, but it didn't get the benefites of TS, and my Whipflares would always wipe them out anyway, so we opted to put in Porcelain Legionnaire instead.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
That seems like a very narrow card. I don't see how you could justify multiple SB slots for it. Seems a bit too fancy when your ally can simply run O-Ring and Revoke Existence in hers.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Well, at the 11th hour I have gotten my hands on a Consecrated Sphinx, now I just have to figure out where to fit it!
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I originally put in the Blue Sun to take the place of the missing Sphinx, so it would probably be the logical choice. However, in testing BSZ has been particularly useful at times, both in refilling my own hand, or in helping my partner, as TS often runs low on cards in hand in the late game. Also, the deck has quite a few 6 drop creatures already, and I hesitate to increase that count. I wonder if it would be worth swapping out Olivia or one of the Grave Titans for the Sphinx.
What I like about Leak in 2HG is that it's much harder to blank. While I agree that Leak can become stone-dead in duels, that typically isn't a concern in team formats. If you can Timewalk both players for a zillion turns so they can play around Leak, laugh your ass off and count the money.
You could cut a G.Titan if you wanted. You really don't have that many 6 drops tbh, so adding another shouldn't kill you, but the G man could stand to go.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Well, we had the tournament last night, and all in all, it was pretty successful. The decks were loads of fun to play, and we had some really good games. We ended up going 3-1 for 4th place. Our one loss was to a pair of aggro decks (spirits and vampires). They hit hard and fast, and I got royally mana screwed (having to use Ghost Quarter on myself just to get the right color of land is always a bad sign!).
Exsanguinate wins games! We were having a tough match against RDW and U/B Zombie control. They were still at 24 life and we had been down to 2 for a few turns in a row, our creatures staring at each other across the battlefield in a stalemate, and we were just anticipating another burn spell. I got a Wurmcoil Engine on the table and managed to get our life back up to 8, then I Forbidden Alchemy'd into Exsanguinate. I dumped BB5 into that for a total of a 20 point life swing, putting us at 18 and them at 14. After that, we swung in with everything: a couple fatties on my side, and a few artifacts with two Tempered Steels, some Gavony Township counters, and a Battle Cry trigger for my ally. It was one of those games that was just really fun and exciting the whole way through.
What I didn't know beforehand is that we were only doing single game matches, so the sideboards were useless anyway. If I had known that going in, I might have made a few changes to the decks just to have a little more variety in the answers available. Mostly, I probably would have squeezed in some artifact/enchantment hate. Graveyard hate probably wouldn't habe been a bad idea, as we faced two decks running Geralf's Messenger and his ilk. Of course, I was going into a fairly unknown meta, so I wasn't sure what to expect.
I did end up just dropping the Negate for the Consecrated Sphinx, but he never made it to the table all night. I had him in my hand once, along with two other finishers that were just better options at that point. In testing, Grave Titan was my primary finisher, but I never drew either copy. Massacre Wurm ended up being a major player, as did Olivia Voldaren, both helping to clear the board improve our position.
Anyway, it was a lot of fun, and out of the decks I saw, we had one of the most coordinated strategies. It's definitely a format I'd like to do again sometime. Thanks again Cz for all the help bouncing ideas around!
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I'll be reviving these decks for another Standard 2HG game in the near future. I'm doing a bit of research, but does anyone happen to know of any AVR cards that should make their way into these?
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Grave Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Massacre Wurm
Removal Spells (14)
3 Whipflare
1 Slagstorm
2 Go for the Throat
1 Tribute to Hunger
2 Tragic Slip
2 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Devil's Play
2 Pillar of Flame
3 Mana Leak
2 Dissipate
Draw Spells (7)
4 Think Twice
3 Forbidden Alchemy
Other Spells (1)
1 Exsanguinate
Lands (26)
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Dragonskull Summit
3 Sulfur Falls
3 Evolving Wilds
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Mountain
4 Island
3 Swamp
4 Memnite
4 Signal Pest
4 Vault Skirge
4 Porcelain Legionnaire
4 Etched Champion
2 Origin Spellbomb
3 Mox Opal
4 Glint Hawk Idol
Spells (10)
4 Tempered Steel
4 Dispatch
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Razorverge Thicket
1 Sunpetal Grove
3 Gavony Township
9 Plains
Since with 2HG, there are no sideboards, I was considering trying to squeeze in some maindeck artifact/enchantment hate, such as Revoke Existence in the TS deck, or maybe Ancient Grudge in Grixis (although I can't flashback it). I also thought about tossing in a couple of Corrosive Gales, which could go in either deck (TS has the green mana, but Grixis would have more mana to pump into it), but I'm not really sure what I'd cut to run any of this.
Another thought I had was maybe trying Killing Wave as a 1 of (Killing Wave + Massacre Wurm = Catch 22 for opponents ;)), but again, there's a lot of good stuff in there already, and it's tough to cut any of it over another board wiper.
Killing Wave isn't a board wiper. It's a nothing. Your opponents will always pick the outcome that favors them the most. Paying life (especially when you have 30 of it) to keep your best creatures in play is always worthwhile, so you're basically just paying for like a Searing Flesh or whatever. That's not what a Control deck wants. Do not run it.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold