The end of the storyline.

[Multany]

i must say when i saw that StF was stopping, i guess the writer thought "well..why am i writting a colunm, and devoting my time to it, when clearly no one else in th WotC cares about Characters, the TimeLine, Major storytelling, and not even the cars reflect that anymore?" ...

When Maro and Brady feel that the cards are tools to show us how the planes are, and what kind of creatures and in them, rather than a means to tell a story..i think we'll never see a good focused story again. (for example, Tempest showed us preaty good how Rath was, and i did a great job to show us how some parts of the story went - i remember they having a problem that people don't see the cards in the order the story goes, but for me that's a good thing, if one wants, you could line up the cards so it told a story!)

i would love to see that kind of storytelling in the cards today!

[lightbulb]

My sentiment exactly.

Also you could argue it is a tool for segmenting your audience and catering to those segments. If there really are so many players who don't care too much for the story they wouldn't care which card they see first and whether that's "later" in the story than the next card they see by that same logic. Thus it wouldn't affect them. On the other hand, those interested in the story would get a real kick out of it seeing moments of the story play out on the cards. And you could even further speculate some players who are not too interested in the story might get drawn into those art pieces where that cool legend they like to play with does something awesome and/or interacts with another grand creature/legend.

Generally I love how WotC thinks about those things as well, trying to further the experience through every bit aspect of what they publish. But in this case I feel they are overestimating that perceived negative effect of seeing a card from later in the story before a card from earlier - they are basically doing it now anyway (looking at you Mr.-I-die-5-minutes-after-I'm-released).

[aleerpsoftware]

Originally Posted by Multany

When Maro and Brady feel that the cards are tools to show us how the planes are, and what kind of creatures and in them, rather than a means to tell a story..i think we'll never see a good focused story again. (for example, Tempest showed us preaty good how Rath was, and i did a great job to show us how some parts of the story went - i remember they having a problem that people don't see the cards in the order the story goes, but for me that's a good thing, if one wants, you could line up the cards so it told a story!)

i would love to see that kind of storytelling in the cards today!

The only problem is this game (like so many other TCGs) has lost any respect for the flavor, story, or even art of the cards because it caters too much to guys obsessed with auto-win mechanics and breaking cards into win-cons.

Granted I've seen some combos have a funky flavor translation (like the Kraj + certain attractive elven women), there are times when I just feel simply exhausted from all the (as Doug Beyer put it one article) 'Vorthos tap dancing'. -.-

[lightbulb]

Originally Posted by aleerpsoftware

The only problem is this game (like so many other TCGs) has lost any respect for the flavor, story, or even art of the cards because it caters too much to guys obsessed with auto-win mechanics and breaking cards into win-cons.

Well, I wouldn't quite go that far. If you look at the last couple of years it becomes apparent that the trend is rather towards flavour and enhancing that. And personally I even feel that they are doing a better job with th art - not necessarily having "better" art pieces but rather a coherent feel across the set.

The major thing I took from Multany's complaint was the way they tell the story with the cards. Because this could be a grand opportunity (if done right).

[Rathi 'Walker]

If competitive players only care about the text beneath the art, I see no reason to tell the story through the cards.

[Skibo]

Originally Posted by Rathi 'Walker

If competitive players only care about the text beneath the art, I see no reason to tell the story through the cards.

Most players aren't competive. By the same token, most players aren't hardcore storyliners either. Most players are casual players. They like that their cards have flavor, but don't care enough about it to go out and buy the books.

[Eriol]

Originally Posted by Skibo

Most players aren't competive. By the same token, most players aren't hardcore storyliners either. Most players are casual players. They like that their cards have flavor, but don't care enough about it to go out and buy the books.

I also think this is the current situation. I tried to read one of the last novels, and they really were really badly written. At the same time, I don't think WotC wants to spend enough money to hire a good writer or a "loremaster" to keep continuity with all the stories.

In some ways, these sets being to feel like the very old sets, like The Dark, Fallen Empires, and Legends. There was some flavor and a basic story that can pieced from the cards, but nothing was examined too deeply.

[Ramenth]

I think that the quality of the novels was definitely a big part of it. Deserved or not, Magic novels have the reputation of being worse than even the D&D and Warcraft novels.

Originally Posted by lightbulb

Anyone seen MaRos tumblr today? Next to Bradys explanation why they discontinued the novel line I think we can get a pretty clear picture how WotC views this issue: it's OUR fault!! What the...

I am over reacting here, but this really ticks me off! I have been buying their crappy novels, comics and what not for years and years and all I got was this stupid shirt ... wait, I'm getting off track...a\

But seriously - it couldn't have possibly been the case that their sh*t products have deterred people from buying them ... no, no, no... there is just too few people willing to pay for their brilliant but sadly underappreciated products. Or maybe they failed to effectively market them to actually grow a market for their non-card products ... no, no, no ... in their eyes it is probably our fault we didn't convince everyone we knew what great products Magic offers besides cards!
Geez... really?!?!

Check the aggression, please. The truth is Magic novels have never sold particularly well, and demand fell. From a financial perspective there's no reason to hire better writers when there appears to be no demand for the books as is.

Books, sad to say, have a limited audience. Tie in books have an even more limited audience.

[LilianaVess33]

Originally Posted by lightbulb

Anyone seen MaRos tumblr today? Next to Bradys explanation why they discontinued the novel line I think we can get a pretty clear picture how WotC views this issue: it's OUR fault!! What the...

I am over reacting here, but this really ticks me off! I have been buying their crappy novels, comics and what not for years and years and all I got was this stupid shirt ... wait, I'm getting off track...

But seriously - it couldn't have possibly been the case that their sh*t products have deterred people from buying them ... no, no, no... there is just too few people willing to pay for their brilliant but sadly underappreciated products. Or maybe they failed to effectively market them to actually grow a market for their non-card products ... no, no, no ... in their eyes it is probably our fault we didn't convince everyone we knew what great products Magic offers besides cards!
Geez... really?!?!

I am so pissed I feel like punching Chuck ****ing Norris in the face.

Look in all honesty it is our fault, completely and utterly our fault. Well ok not completely, but................. yeah.

I love(d) the books, even the bad ones and all we did is bitch and whine, and grumble, and all that. WotC lurks here more than you think.

Look at where all of our pissant bickering about clockworking has lead....... it lead ****ing nowhere, the books are gone now...... We sure showed them.

But wait at least we still have Savor the Flavor, right? oh. thats right we have a 1054 post long thread here of people complaining about it, and now that's gone too....... riiiiiaaaaaggggghhhhhhtttttt bang up job boys.

What really just gets to me is I obviously love Lili for person reasons, and I've been waiting since Agents of Artifice to get a book devoted to her....... Just as they're about to release 2 books featuring her, it all goes black.

Damn it Brady the books already written, cover art already completed, release the damn thing. I wanted Lili to read it when she got older.

Blah, I can believe that nerdy neckbeards finally accomplish something, and I can't reveal in it, I can't stand behind it, I can't be proud of it.

Well lets just calls this the "John Wilkes Booth of Achievements."


Please keep things civil in the future. Thanks.
-Stardust

[aleerpsoftware]

Originally Posted by lightbulb

Well, I wouldn't quite go that far. If you look at the last couple of years it becomes apparent that the trend is rather towards flavour and enhancing that.

I've been telling myself that but I guess I'm just wishing it could happen faster y'know? So far, there's still too much talk in my area about combos, win-cons, and Johnnies/Spikes/Melvins slurping it all up. At times, I've had those who try to shift from that and get into flavor only for them to demonstrate an even lesser knowledge of lore than I do. (Case in point, my other thread here regarding etherium.)

Originally Posted by lightbulb

The major thing I took from Multany's complaint was the way they tell the story with the cards. Because this could be a grand opportunity (if done right).

I have no disagreements with that. It's just these days players still buy cards for the sake of winning the game (at least as far as my area is concerned). Art, story, or flavor text still take a back seat to win-cons and infinite-combos. Heck, I sometimes wonder just how much WotC reels in from tournaments compared to anything flavor-related.

[Barinellos]

Originally Posted by LilianaVess33

But wait at least we still have Savor the Flavor, right? oh. thats right we have a 1054 post long thread here of people complaining about it, and now that's gone too....... riiiiiaaaaaggggghhhhhhtttttt bang up job boys.

What really just gets to me is I obviously love Lili for person reasons, and I've been waiting since Agents of Artifice to get a book devoted to her....... Just as they're about to release 2 books featuring her, it all goes black.

Damn it Brady the books already written, cover art already completed, release the damn thing. I wanted Lili to read it when she got older.

Savor the Flavor IS coming back. Boy is it ever tiresome to have to say that over and over again. They just couldn't get somebody to take over by the time Doug stepped out. Seriously getting tired of it...

And the Curse of the Chain Veil wasn't exactly going to be great. I've read some of Vornholt's other material, and if you thought Wintermute was bad, then you haven't seen how low a book can sink. Brady flat out stated that the book was so far off their expectations they COULDN'T publish it. Just think about that, if they printed Quest for Karn, how off must Curse have been?

What's more, is that Curse was supposed to have been out BEFORE Mirrodin started. It isn't like they had two books about to come out for Liliana. They'd already scrapped one.

[Quannage]

Originally Posted by Barinellos

Savor the Flavor IS coming back. Boy is it ever tiresome to have to say that over and over again. They just couldn't get somebody to take over by the time Doug stepped out. Seriously getting tired of it...

And the Curse of the Chain Veil wasn't exactly going to be great. I've read some of Vornholt's other material, and if you thought Wintermute was bad, then you haven't seen how low a book can sink. Brady flat out stated that the book was so far off their expectations they COULDN'T publish it. Just think about that, if they printed Quest for Karn, how off must Curse have been?

What's more, is that Curse was supposed to have been out BEFORE Mirrodin started. It isn't like they had two books about to come out for Liliana. They'd already scrapped one.

This.

And i don't think it's fair to blame the 'boards for what happened. Numbers don't lie, and it basically boiled down to the bottom line. Yeah, the latest round of books have been crappy, but don't forget that even their better books were a niche market at best. We can discuss all day on what they could have done differently marketing-wise for those books, but the end result is still that NONE of their books did well, regardless of the quality of the writing. and our complaints about StF really don't seem to factor much into them taking it off the shelf for a while. if that were the case, They'd have pulled the plug on Beyer months ago.

and yeah, Lilly's book was stillborn for a reason. your desire reminds me of the Monkey's Paw story where the wife wished to see her son after he died, and the son came knocking at the door...
trust me. You didn't want that book.

[Lord of the Unreal]

To quote Brady Dommermuth:

I want to respond to Voila!'s posts over at MTGS, too. Please know that across the 66 published Magic novels, we have tried every combination of more/less creative control, more/less time, and more/less money. No combination of those elements guarantees a great novel. (And I'll reiterate that the novels you think are great are generally in the bottom half sales-wise, and the novels you loathe are generally in the top half. There are exceptions.) Great novels are rare, and many of them take YEARS to write.

Unlike publishing companies who usually buy a book and publish it only if it's already good enough, we commissioned books on spec and had to publish what we got (after a few precious weeks of revision), regardless of how the final draft turned out. Only one book differed so sharply from our expectation that we elected not to publish it. You can probably figure out which.

Curse of the Chain Veil wasn't going to be great, and they smartly put their foot down.

And of course the bit about how historically money spent on a Magic novel doesn't equal to how well the book sells and how well it is received is important as well.

[Tamiger15]

The problem continues though that the other player types will always get what they want as long as the card game continues. Melvin, Timmy, Johnny, and Spike are always going to get cards they want to continue. Vorthose on the other hand, is getting his back turned on him. Not that this is completely true, but that is at least how it feels. No, the books were not good. And no, the short stories and StF don't wrap everything up nicely for us. The fact remains though that it was nice to feel like Wizards was always trying to appeal to us as best they could. Now it feels like we were put in the back seat of the car, told to shut up, and deal.

What I am saying is I don't want them to continue to produce bad novels with the storylines. I want StF to come back (which I know is...eventually) and I just want something more. Something to produce the story as full as they can and appeal to my needs as one of their target demographics/consumers so that I don't continually wonder what is going on in the story they claim is there.

[Lord of the Unreal]

I think you may be right in your sentiment, the only problem is that you are grouping "Flavor Seekers" in with the whole wide range of Vorthoses, while it's actually only a tiny sub-set of the whole Vorthos spectrum. Brady said it himself that with the very best estimates, only 1 in 10,000 players ever bought a book that wasn't in a fat pack. 0.01%. That's it.

(Non-fat pack books being relevant to them because the fat packs were discounted so that the books were given away for free, so only the 0.01% of players were actually contributing to their revenue.)

While people may have taken MaRo's remarks as insulting and/or callous, Wizards does what it does (dailymtg, tournaments, making a quality game that constantly changes, but remains balanced most of the time and is aware of power creep) because it sells product. Wizards is appealing all the other Vorthoses by moving to unique settings each year, depicted with unique art styles, and by increasing the prominence of top-down design... and I assume that helps with player retention and enthusiasm for the game. It helps to sell more product.

But for us, the Vorthos part that seeks out more beyond the cards... we are so insignificant in the larger scheme of things and are costing Wizards money instead of making them money. Maybe a fully developed story told in novel form will help encourage us to keep playing and keep buying product, but the man hours it takes to execute on that, especially in proportion to how many of us there are compared to the entire player base... it just doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense so much that the plot of each set is going to reduce in complexity.

The answer to the question I think you're trying to get at is this: We won't be creating a plot of novel-like complexity and then trying to shoehorn it onto cards. Instead we'll be creating a plot we believe can be communicated through the means we have: cards, short videos, marketing efforts, and whatever other media venues materialize. Form follows function.

- Brady Dommermusth

The only potential light at the end of the tunnel, a light that might not even be there, is that a simpler plot can be told more easily in comic book form. A huge problem with a lot of the webcomics is that they felt rushed. When you compared them to their counterparts in the novels, it was easy to see why. They were trying to tell too much in a limited page count.

The dream for me, at this point, would be for a 12-part mini-series that covered the central story of each block. The planewalkers already do feel like comic book characters anyway, and climaxes that don't end in deaths of the villain in a comic book is standard practice. (Which would work nicely if the central antagonist happened to be a planeswalker like Nicol Bolas, Tezzeret, etc). It can work if the plot is simple enough, and good stories can still be told. Plenty of excellent stories have been told in 12-issue arcs, or even less.

And if that dream can't be reached, I could be happy with a regular ongoing Magic comic book. Wizards cannot stop creating new planeswalkers because they need to mix in new ones with the familiar to keep people interested in the cards. And each year there will be more and more planeswalkers that can't be used for longer and longer periods of time. It can't be helped. A block without a single new planeswalker might work once if the overall theme is right, but two years in a row? Three? Players will feel cheated that Wizards is only recycling planeswalkers we've seen before. (Perhaps that will plateau. There is probably a number large enough that it won't matter, but that won't be any time soon.)

With so many planeswalkers with nothing to do, it seems to me that it only makes sense to allow them to have more prominence in the comics. Maybe Dack will always be the main character, maybe not, but as the years pass IDW will have a larger stable of characters to pull from that are just gathering dust.

If the comic line actually exists years from now. There's the rub. That can't ever happen if no one buys these comics that are coming out now.

It's a good thing the comics are of a pretty high quality, and that IDW is the perfect publisher for Wizards to have made a deal with. And sales have been good enough that IDW is going forward with a second mini-series, but it could end there. Magic certainly doesn't sell enough to get front page status on their website, so my dream is probably already dead.

But still... I'm doing my part and buying the comics. I haven't been disappointed in them so far, and at this point all I can do is hope the comic line doesn't end with The Spell Thief mini-series.