League of Legends Season II

[Ulfsaar]

Originally Posted by Ravnos

aside from them trying to "help" by auto-attacking creeps.

Speaking of this, really good supports do help in assisting last hits by measuring them out so that the ad doesn't miss them. Specifically under the tower.

[areostatico]

Originally Posted by Glimyrpost

mid lane doesn't want to be aggressive. Heck, no lane wants to be aggressive. Pushing someone to turret means you lose CS as well (their minions stop on turret, and a few die where you can't last hit, while the people on the other team lose cs, so do you). Additionally, they at least gain exp, you sometimes (depends on positioning) can't without overextending too much. There is a reason pros only push so that all of the attacking minions die before the next wave arrives.

This is wrong.

For example, the reason why Sion counters LB is that he can push the wave to tower then roam. The reason why so many counterpicks are counters to champs that cannot easily CS without expending resources they don't want to is so that they can push to tower (and often go roam).

Another case is where you don't apply pressure on your laning opponent. Sure you are denying your opponent CS by freezing the lane then zoning him, but this allows him to go roam. So you have to find a mix of zoning him while pushing toward his tower so that there is an ever-present risk that you will take his tower if he leaves.

Finally, from watching Chaox (an AD bot savant) and from personal experience, it is actually possible to CS under an opponents tower. You might refer back to the post where I was Graves pushing to the opponents tower while doubling my opponents CS.

Clarification: being aggressive doesn't mean pushing to tower. Being aggressive means harassing your opponent when he tries to CS or when he opens himself up to being attacked. Aggressive play can lead to pushing to the enemy's tower, but sometimes (as I've noted) that's a good thing.

BETTER EXAMPLES OF AGGRESSIVE PLAY!:

1. Teemo (ranged) vs. Nasus (melee). You're ranged and he's melee. You hit him while CSing. He rues the day he was born. Aggressive play while being safe. Boom~!
2. Using your abilities and auto attacks to harass while still CSing. You make him miss CS by harassing him when he tries to CS. He rues the day he was born. Aggressive play while being safe. Boom~!

Too many times I see people in normals going OOM and their opponent is mysteriously still at full hp/mana. CS with AA. Harass them with AA + skills (when appropriate). Boom~!

[SacredMesa]

Originally Posted by areostatico

This is wrong.

For example, the reason why Sion counters LB is that he can push the wave to tower then roam. The reason why so many counterpicks are counters to champs that cannot easily CS without expending resources they don't want to is so that they can push to tower (and often go roam).

Another case is where you don't apply pressure on your laning opponent. Sure you are denying your opponent CS by freezing the lane then zoning him, but this allows him to go roam. So you have to find a mix of zoning him while pushing toward his tower so that there is an ever-present risk that you will take his tower if he leaves.

Finally, from watching Chaox (an AD bot savant) and from personal experience, it is actually possible to CS under an opponents tower. You might refer back to the post where I was Graves pushing to the opponents tower while doubling my opponents CS.

Clarification: being aggressive doesn't mean pushing to tower. Being aggressive means harassing your opponent when he tries to CS or when he opens himself up to being attacked. Aggressive play can lead to pushing to the enemy's tower, but sometimes (as I've noted) that's a good thing.

BETTER EXAMPLES OF AGGRESSIVE PLAY!:

1. Teemo (ranged) vs. Nasus (melee). You're ranged and he's melee. You hit him while CSing. He rues the day he was born. Aggressive play while being safe. Boom~!
2. Using your abilities and auto attacks to harass while still CSing. You make him miss CS by harassing him when he tries to CS. He rues the day he was born. Aggressive play while being safe. Boom~!

Too many times I see people in normals going OOM and their opponent is mysteriously still at full hp/mana. CS with AA. Harass them with AA + skills (when appropriate). Boom~!

This is going to be the last thing I say about this topic, since I've already spoken my peace.

If you are in top or bot lane you can afford to be more aggressive, the paths to ganking you are longer and not as plentiful. If you are in the middle I have at least 6 potential ways to come up from behind you and depending on who I am EIGHT potential ways to quickly get to you. I've flashed from the jungle path of my turret straight into mid lane as Skarner and pulled an over extending mid right into our turret where she got nuked, I've dragoned one into our turret as Shyvana from the bushes, I've come up from their jungle behind their turrets to push them out and gank them. You are the most vulnerable in the middle and if you are playing aggressive all the time and your enemy team is competant YOU WILL BE PUNISHED.

Now I'm not saying harassing is bad, no one is saying that, we are saying that playing constantly aggressive and pushing the lane can and will make you vulnerable to ganks and because of this it is a bad idea to try and constantly push the lane when you can farm it from a relatively close distance to your turret while still harassing and getting your CS.

If you don't want to believe this that is fine keep being aggressive, keep pushing turrets and my jungler will camp you and make you free farm for me as well as the lane itself. I know people like to think they are all pro and can get away from any 2v1 gank situation and while it's possible to get away from a gank if all you do is make yourself gankbait the whole laning phase a competant jungler is going to ensure you are punished.

[areostatico]

Originally Posted by SacredMesa

This is going to be the last thing I say about this topic, since I've already spoken my peace.

If you are in top or bot lane you can afford to be more aggressive, the paths to ganking you are longer and not as plentiful. If you are in the middle I have at least 6 potential ways to come up from behind you and depending on who I am EIGHT potential ways to quickly get to you. I've flashed from the jungle path of my turret straight into mid lane as Skarner and pulled an over extending mid right into our turret where she got nuked, I've dragoned one into our turret as Shyvana from the bushes, I've come up from their jungle behind their turrets to push them out and gank them. You are the most vulnerable in the middle and if you are playing aggressive all the time and your enemy team is competant YOU WILL BE PUNISHED.

Now I'm not saying harassing is bad, no one is saying that, we are saying that playing constantly aggressive and pushing the lane can and will make you vulnerable to ganks and because of this it is a bad idea to try and constantly push the lane when you can farm it from a relatively close distance to your turret while still harassing and getting your CS.

If you don't want to believe this that is fine keep being aggressive, keep pushing turrets and my jungler will camp you and make you free farm for me as well as the lane itself. I know people like to think they are all pro and can get away from any 2v1 gank situation and while it's possible to get away from a gank if all you do is make yourself gankbait the whole laning phase a competant jungler is going to ensure you are punished.

I can agree with if you are at the same level as your opponents. If you are better than your opponents, aggressive play will reward you more than passive play.

As for pushing to tower, my statements regarding that were made in response to the idea that pushing to tower is always a bad idea. Sometimes it is the right idea.

[Umezete]

Originally Posted by SacredMesa

This is going to be the last thing I say about this topic, since I've already spoken my peace.

If you are in top or bot lane you can afford to be more aggressive, the paths to ganking you are longer and not as plentiful. If you are in the middle I have at least 6 potential ways to come up from behind you and depending on who I am EIGHT potential ways to quickly get to you. I've flashed from the jungle path of my turret straight into mid lane as Skarner and pulled an over extending mid right into our turret where she got nuked, I've dragoned one into our turret as Shyvana from the bushes, I've come up from their jungle behind their turrets to push them out and gank them. You are the most vulnerable in the middle and if you are playing aggressive all the time and your enemy team is competant YOU WILL BE PUNISHED.

Now I'm not saying harassing is bad, no one is saying that, we are saying that playing constantly aggressive and pushing the lane can and will make you vulnerable to ganks and because of this it is a bad idea to try and constantly push the lane when you can farm it from a relatively close distance to your turret while still harassing and getting your CS.

If you don't want to believe this that is fine keep being aggressive, keep pushing turrets and my jungler will camp you and make you free farm for me as well as the lane itself. I know people like to think they are all pro and can get away from any 2v1 gank situation and while it's possible to get away from a gank if all you do is make yourself gankbait the whole laning phase a competant jungler is going to ensure you are punished.

Well there is being agressive and there is being stupid.

Good aggressive pushers like morde, gragas, sion can typically push the lane and safely b off to wander (gragas and sion gank while morde often farms wraiths).


Mids that can aggressively push their lane are important against other ap champs that do not have an effective way to clear waves quickly.

[Glimyrpost]

Originally Posted by Ravnos

The support should not be taking any cs from the carry unless the carry has to go back to shop or is dead. Nothing drives me crazier than seeing my support taking cs from me, aside from them trying to "help" by auto-attacking creeps. I can usually time when to last hit to get every creep out of a wave, but when someone attacks one, it throws everything off. If you want to harass something, throw a banana at Kog, not at a minion please.

It does depend. Getting the gp5 items earlier on a support is sometimes useful, but I do feel nice when I am at 20 mins, my lane partner has 170 cs, and I have 7, and I'm still fairly well built up.

Originally Posted by Umezete

Well there is being agressive and there is being stupid.

Good aggressive pushers like morde, gragas, sion can typically push the lane and safely b off to wander (gragas and sion gank while morde often farms wraiths).


Mids that can aggressively push their lane are important against other ap champs that do not have an effective way to clear waves quickly.

There is also a difference between being aggressive and poking/harassing. Harassing an opponent out of lane can be done by tons of champions, including many top supports. (I main lulu, she can zone out nearly anyone). Being aggressive on the other hand generally means pushing out past the middle of the lane, and opening yourself up to ganking and negative exchanges.
Gragas, morde, and sion can all harass from a long distance, and zone opponents out of areas. They don't however spend the game at or past mid.

When I played heimer a lot, I had that issue. He pushed so hard that I'd be stuck past the midline, and end up getting ganked by 2-3 people. That was agressive play. Harass isn't the same as aggressive, and although aggressive isn't always stupid, it is a lot of the time.

[Umezete]

Originally Posted by Glimyrpost

They don't however spend the game at or past mid.

When I played heimer a lot, I had that issue. He pushed so hard that I'd be stuck past the midline, and end up getting ganked by 2-3 people. That was agressive play. Harass isn't the same as aggressive, and although aggressive isn't always stupid, it is a lot of the time.

no one does but you can push past mid just don't stand there.

As the champs I listed I often push the creeps to turret and b, actually committing past halfway if I see their jungler on map.

[TreeBeard]

Does anyone in this thread stream at all? I suppose it won't matter too much since they're implementing Spectator Mode shortly. Maybe it won't affect too many streamers unless they don't have a cap for spectating.

[Sepiriel]

Originally Posted by TreeBeard

Does anyone in this thread stream at all? I suppose it won't matter too much since they're implementing Spectator Mode shortly. Maybe it won't affect too many streamers unless they don't have a cap for spectating.

Well the benefit of streams is that people who arent in a specific server can still view high level play, also while spectator mode will be out there will still be many factors making streams a choice (location, specific players you may want to watch, limitations on spectators).

[G L J]

Originally Posted by TreeBeard

Does anyone in this thread stream at all? I suppose it won't matter too much since they're implementing Spectator Mode shortly. Maybe it won't affect too many streamers unless they don't have a cap for spectating.

I used to play with a guy that streamed. The problem was that unless you somehow got famous you never had more than 20 people watching you.

[Sepiriel]

Sigh... team insta locks Heimer, Ahiri, Lux... AND my jungle shen is going up against jungle noct... this should be fun.... *groans*

Edit: How we won this game is beyond me... considering the Heim was 0/6 right before the end (ended 2/6), Ahiri was 2/7 before the end (ended 4/9) and Vayne, Lux and I were the only ones decent (i was 8/8/16)...

[silex]

Originally Posted by areostatico

I can agree with if you are at the same level as your opponents. If you are better than your opponents, aggressive play will reward you more than passive play.

This. I 100% agree with this. If you are a notch or two above your lane opponent in skill, being aggressive can and usually will create a large income gap between the two of you. It's the best way to leverage your skill advantage. If the two of you are about equal skill, I generally opt for passive play. If you are behind your opponent in skill or just have a bad matchup, you generally want to create a situation that turns into a passive farmfest but still forces your opponent to stay in lane and not go roaming.

Really, though, this all assumes that players are of a minimum skill level and are at least capable of last hitting the vast, vast majority of the creeps that come down their lane. If you're up against people that can't even last hit well, the priorities can completely change as their mistakes will be many.

Originally Posted by TreeBeard

Does anyone in this thread stream at all? I suppose it won't matter too much since they're implementing Spectator Mode shortly. Maybe it won't affect too many streamers unless they don't have a cap for spectating.

Hehe, I tried it a couple times, but just the slight FPS hit I have when recording pisses me off. I can't handle it. It just annoys me to no end.

I'd like to see GLJ stream and give commentary, I think that'd be fun. (do it)

I'm interested to see the impact Spectator mode will have on streaming. Personally, I hope none. I generally only watch streams when I'm unable to play or away from my gaming computer. If I've got time to sit down at home and open up the client, I want to be playing myself, not watching someone else. (unless it's a big event)

[Jubileus]

Originally Posted by TreeBeard

Does anyone in this thread stream at all? I suppose it won't matter too much since they're implementing Spectator Mode shortly. Maybe it won't affect too many streamers unless they don't have a cap for spectating.

My Facebook group does. We are League of Legends Long Island (LoLLI). You can check us out by doing a search for "League of Legends Long Island" on Facebook. Open group, plenty of locals who play, and tournaments with prize support that are free to enter (Season I coming up). We stream whenever we do 5v5/Dominion casuals. Usually get a good turnout on the stream.

We use Twitch.tv for our stream, though have been giving consideration for own3D.tv as an alternative. I'm not sure what kind of impact spectator mode will have on streaming channels. I prefer streaming just because it allows viewers to chat while watching and it gives the streamer freedom to adjust settings, resolutions, and run commercials/ads when needed.

[Sepiriel]

So question, i just farmed 3700 IP ill post a list of the champs i can buy, any suggestions? (By the way the numbers besides a champ means how much that champ and the ones above cost)

Spoiler:

Karma
Eve
Anivia - 450
Orianna - 1110
Irelia
Lux
Swain
Poppy
janna
Zil
Ali
Taric
Cho
Amumu - 2220
Urgot
Teemo
TF - 3000
Leona
Malp
Panth
Ken
Fiddle
Blitz
Kass
Karth
Twitch - 3330

Or i could keep farming and choose one of the following:

Spoiler:

Vayne
Brand
Jarv
Noct
Morde
Ez
Jax
Ww
Singed
Sona - 4440
Wukong
Cait
LB
Kat
Akali
Kog
Tryn
Shaco
Xin - 5550
Heca
Lulu
Naut
Ziggs
Sej
Vik
Voli
Shyv - 6300

Any suggestions?

[Yoda64]

Originally Posted by Sepiriel

So question, i just farmed 3700 IP ill post a list of the champs i can buy, any suggestions? (By the way the numbers besides a champ means how much that champ and the ones above cost)

Spoiler:

Karma
Eve
Anivia - 450
Orianna - 1110
Irelia
Lux
Swain
Poppy
janna
Zil
Ali
Taric
Cho
Amumu - 2220
Urgot
Teemo
TF - 3000
Leona
Malp
Panth
Ken
Fiddle
Blitz
Kass
Karth
Twitch - 3330

Or i could keep farming and choose one of the following:

Spoiler:

Vayne
Brand
Jarv
Noct
Morde
Ez
Jax
Ww
Singed
Sona - 4440
Wukong
Cait
LB
Kat
Akali
Kog
Tryn
Shaco
Xin - 5550
Heca
Lulu
Naut
Ziggs
Sej
Vik
Voli
Shyv - 6300

Any suggestions?

I've really enjoyed playing Teemo, which you can play AD or AP. I also love Malphite because he is the first champion I bought and am for some reason a natural BOSS with him. If you really want actual good champions, you should go with champions like Wukong, Viktor for midlane (Lazzar!), Lux (Also LAZZZARR!), or Akali.

I also have a question. Is Kennen any good AD? How should I play him, and have any of you played him AD, and if so what suggestions do you have for gameplay and items to buy?