Star Wars VS Star Trek

[sirpsychosexy]

I think it's funny how split the nerd community is on this. I saw an article a while back that had this same poll and it had Star Trek getting just over 51% of the votes with a total of over 18,000 votes. I just can't help but wonder how many people are voting objectively and how many are voting for the one they like better.

Any who, I think where this fight takes place could be significant. Different universes could very well mean different laws of physics. If it's taking place in the SW universe will the ST teleporters even work? If it's taking place in the ST universe will there be a force for the jedi/sith to use at all? Location could be key here.

When debating things like this does anyone else ever take a step back and think "goddamn I'm a nerd"? Cause I sure do!

[Xaios]

Originally Posted by sirpsychosexy

I think it's funny how split the nerd community is on this. I saw an article a while back that had this same poll and it had Star Trek getting just over 51% of the votes with a total of over 18,000 votes. I just can't help but wonder how many people are voting objectively and how many are voting for the one they like better.

Well, duh.

Originally Posted by sirpsychosexy

Any who, I think where this fight takes place could be significant. Different universes could very well mean different laws of physics. If it's taking place in the SW universe will the ST teleporters even work? If it's taking place in the ST universe will there be a force for the jedi/sith to use at all? Location could be key here.

I think the first post establishes fairly clearly that the universes have been combined. As a result, I'd expect that anything that works one universe will work in the combined universe.

Originally Posted by sirpsychosexy

When debating things like this does anyone else ever take a step back and think "goddamn I'm a nerd"? Cause I sure do!

You say that like being a nerd is something to be ashamed of. Hell no!

[Fluffy_Bunny]

This guy has a pretty good description of differences between the two.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/

It includes a comparison of weapon power output as well.

[Coffee]

Originally Posted by Teia Rabishu

We've long since established that Palpatine was a suicidally overconfident idiot. The same is not true for many of the Empire's other leaders (take a look at the sort of things managed by Thrawn, Pellaeon, Disra, even Isard, not to mention Zsinj, Krennel, and the other ex-Imperial warlords).

Except this isn't a reflection of the Emperor's incompetence, it is a reflection of the tactical/military incompetence of Imperial Officers, in this case ones who command a Legion of the Empire's best.

The Cream of the Empire's crop:

-apparently did not scout out the planet on which they placed their highly important shield generator.

-chose to have a single checkpoint into the shield facility.

-deployed a platoon strength security detail at the facility. The Emperor described a Legion! Where were the rest?

-were beaten by rocks and sticks, while wearing armor that is supposed to withstand energy weapons. Hmm...maybe the Federation shouldn't worry about a ground war after all...

-deployed armored units that can be destroyed by logs. Forget the Federation, a modern Infantry Fighting Vehicle would toast an AT-ST. Maybe the Federation shouldn't worry about a ground war after all...

-made the tactically idiotic decision to give chase to an inferior attacker, abandoning a position of tactical superiority to do so. You know, all that Imperial Platoon needed to do was stay put, dig in and shoot away.

Originally Posted by Fluffy_Bunny

This guy has a pretty good description of differences between the two.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/

It includes a comparison of weapon power output as well.

Stardestroyer.net? An article that talks about how "we" beat the Federation? That's like Sarah Palin citing fox news as an objective news source.

[draftguy2]

I would like too point out the Economic advantage ST has. SW still uses the VERY outdated capitalistic approach, where as ST is in the whole "Ideal Communism" thing. Particularity with Borg/Federation. They have alot more potential for massive output economically over the long hall. War is expensive not so much for a nation that has evolved past the need for money.

With the exception of anti matter ALL other physical resources are NOT required with replicators. This amounts to ST being able to theoreticly (assuming the moral thing isn't an issue) totaly go scorched earth combat on them. Killing the SW universe on the bases that they DO need stuff As they invade they basicly burn them selves out.

[dcartist]

Originally Posted by Fluffy_Bunny

This guy has a pretty good description of differences between the two.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/

It includes a comparison of weapon power output as well.

This dude sounds delusional, and a "wee" bit partisan.

Stardestroyer.net is all about the Star Wars.

[Enizzle]

We haven't compared characters yet!!! So let's do that. I'll cite the movies for star wars, and TNG for star trek. Well leave out all of the invincible ships/invincible Yuzan Crom/Sith planet suckers and Avatar Luke. No books, straight up tv/movies. It'll be a vs. arrangement. Here we go:

Picard vs. Obi Wan
Straight up fight? Intriguing. One is a Jedi master, the other is a starfleet legend. Obi has Jean-Luc pretty dead to rights here. If its a fistfight, Kenobi. Sword fight, Kenobi. Ship to ship? Depends. If you take into account that moronic article about star wars power output, Obi would most likely be able to plug in a light bulb, shine it on the Enterprise, and immediately disintegrate it. A more adult version would concern piloting, tactics, etc. This i give to Picard. I also give him the edge in diplomacy, as we all know how bad Obi and that hippy Qui-Gon bungled the talks with the trade federation. Overall, I call it too close to call.

Kirk vs Solo
Kirk kicks Solo's teeth down his throat. There is no concievable way I see Solo winning this. Kirk is a pilot, a tactician, and to be straight up honest, a goddam cold blooded murderer. Solo is a great pilot, yeah no doubt. But the man is also a coward and a smuggler. That's how he's managed to stay alive so long. Fistfight? Kirk. Drinking contest? Kirk. See who could get the most women? Kirk. Piloting? Solo. Shooting, meh, close. Escape artist? Also close. In the end, sorry, it's Kirk taking it home.

Data vs C3PO/R2D2
Yeah, it's a handycap match. Two on one. R2 "I'm the Shell to a Possibly Long Dead Dwarf Carcass" D2 and "The Nancy Droid We All Avoid" C3PO. This is exactly how this fight breaks down:
*R2D2/C3PO walk up to Data. Data buries both of them in unmarked scrap heaps 0.68 seconds later.* Data takes it.

Luke vs Riker
No contest. Luke pulls Riker's stomach out through his anus and jettisons his fat corpse into space. Easy peasy.

Worf vs Chewy
This is a bloodbath. And again, very close. It ends in either the classic wookie arm stretch, where Chewy "disarms" Worf and beats him to death with his own appendages, or Worf decides to show up to a fight for once and disembowels Chewy before uttering a vicious Klingon war cry and making passionate love to the remains. Really, it's all about ceremony, not attraction. Too close to call.

Leia vs Kira
Ok. I could throw Troi in here, and for the sake of fairness, I will do an alternate version. If its Kyra Nerise, imagine your favorite late night Cinemax soft core, just more violent and ending in someone's death instead of lonely women coming together because no one has a deck of cards and they're all innocent. If its Kyra, it's over fast.
If its Troi, I could see Leia pulling it out. She's a hard chick and all, but Kyra is a lifelong soldier, been through a lot worse than Leia (bla bla her planet blew up etc etc, doesn't make her a better fighter.) Shed probably absolutely own Troi. I left out Tasha Yar because Leia might have a SLIM chance against Kyra, but Tasha....well, we all know how that would go down. And yeah, most of us would pay to see it. Star Trek.

Star Trek takes it by the slimmest of margins.

[sirpsychosexy]

Originally Posted by Xaios

You say that like being a nerd is something to be ashamed of.

No no no. I proudly display my nerdieness like a badge of honor!

[Xaios]

Picard would simply use his immense powers of speech-craft to convince Obiwan to side with the Federation. It's like a Jedi Mind Trick that even a Toydarian isn't immune to.

How about Benjamin Sisko versus Lando Calrissian? Now THAT would be a good fight.

[Enizzle]

Sisko would pimpslap Lando's ass back to Bespin.

[Coffee]

Originally Posted by Enizzle

Sisko would pimpslap Lando's ass back to Bespin.

Yep, no contest. Since we're basing character battles off of TV movies, we see that Lando has a conscience, but he's weak-willed enough to almost do the wrong thing.

Sisko has tougher moral fiber, and just does what he sets out to do. And God help Lando if Sisko gives him his baseball...

[Teia Rabishu]

Originally Posted by Xaios

I'd say it was destroyed more by a combination Shinzon's arrogance and deus ex machina. Without either of those things, Shinzon would have slaughtered both the Enterprise and the Warbirds.

And in the SW universe they have both sensors that can detect cloaked vessels, as well as planetary shields. The latter is an interesting case because the Rebels at Hoth had a small-scale shield that could repel "any bombardment" by the Executor and its fleet. A more plausible interpretation of that line was that any force required to break the shield would have caused unwanted damage to the surrounding area, but consider also that the combined Rebel fleet needed to sneak in a commando team to take down Coruscant's planetary shield before they could even think of taking it, because they couldn't get through it even if they did take down the rest of the fleet.

Any mention as to the actual distance between those systems?

Potentially, but like I said, I don't have the book handy to flip through.

If those are the pure numbers, then yeah, SW ships definitely have the advantage. Although I have to wonder what they do with all that power, as it's MAGNITUDES higher than Star Trek ships. In Star Trek, a fleet of Romulan and Cardassian ships was able to crack the mantle on the Founder homeworld. The Enterprise D could drill several kilometers through solid rock with phasers alone in no time flat. Based on those numbers, an ISD's weapons alone should be able to blow up a planet, and yet they clearly can't. This would suggest that SW ships are unbelievably inefficient next to their ST counterparts.

Well, there's a difference between maximum output and what you're likely to use in a fight. When you're trying to blow ships up in the middle of space, sure, you go all-out. When you're trying to bombard a planet you'd rather take intact, you dial it down so you don't destroy it. There does exist an Imperial general order called Base Delta Zero where a single Star Destroyer depopulates an entire planet (reaching down through most of the crust to hit underground facilities, IIRC) and renders it uninhabitable, but it's rarely done because, in military terms, destroying potential resources is wasteful and should only be done as a last resort.

For example, Imperial Intelligence vs. Changeling Infiltrators. Now THAT would be an interesting discussion.

The Empire even has a similar kind of virus to Section 31's modified Quickening, in their case the Krytos virus, engineered to kill nonhuman races.

Originally Posted by Fluffy_Bunny

This guy has a pretty good description of differences between the two.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/

It includes a comparison of weapon power output as well.

I actually knew about that site beforehand, but I intentionally didn't include it because he writes it "in character" rather than objectively. His understanding of the science behind each series is far superior to my own, and I've used some of his concepts in this thread, but the site itself probably isn't that useful (even if I do agree that the actual STvSW battle is too one-sided to consider seriously).

Originally Posted by Enizzle

A more adult version would concern piloting, tactics, etc. This i give to Picard.

Picard might have sharp senses and a keen intellect, but Obi-Wan has the Force going for him. That gives him a significant advantage because suddenly he's privy to so much more information than Picard, including some degree of precognition.

See who could get the most women? Kirk.

See who can have the more stable long-term relationship and more surviving kids? Solo.

Also gambling goes to solo as well. The dude once won a planet in a card game. Let's see Kirk manage something like that.

Leia vs Kira

Leia, as in Luke's brother, as in a Jedi, versus a seasoned terrorist. No doubt that it's not a one-sided battle (Mara Jade managed to subdue Luke despite not having her Force powers at the time), but again, I have a hard time imagining Kira ever beating a Jedi (even a relatively inexperienced one) in a straight-up fight.

On that note, I'd actually say Mara Jade would be the more appropriate counterpart to Kira (in terms of being each universe's badass Action Girl and all). Which is kind of no contest since the Emperor's Hand at any point in the timeline could deal with people like Kira without even breaking a sweat.

Also Kira's "been through a lot worse than Leia"? One of Leia's sons died fighting a war they didn't even know if they could win, and her other son became Darth Caedus. Not to mention all the other crap she's been through over the years—Kira's never had to deal with being thrown out of her own government (there's that one episode where Kai Winn takes over and Kira has to go renegade but it was a one-episode affair and quickly resolved).

Originally Posted by draftguy2

This amounts to ST being able to theoreticly (assuming the moral thing isn't an issue) totaly go scorched earth combat on them. Killing the SW universe on the bases that they DO need stuff As they invade they basicly burn them selves out.

A Federation with maybe a few hundred systems versus an Empire with millions of systems and the logistical ability to maintain itself? Yeah, let me know how that one works out. Given that the Federation was running itself out of resources just fighting the Dominion, they don't have the capability to go total war on an empire that's ten thousand times their size.

Originally Posted by Coffee

Sisko has tougher moral fiber, and just does what he sets out to do.

Like deploy chemical weapons on civilians just because one ex-military terrorist pissed him off.

Though I guess that just means Sisko is the renegade compared to Picard's paragon.

[Captain_Morgan]

From a "cast" stand point, DS9 and Star Wars the original trilogy were probably the peak. If you were to compare say Enterprise with the last trilogy I'd tend to agree. The Clone Wars series fluctuates from the few episodes I've seen of it, and frankly the Clones are some of the more interesting characters. There was supposed to be a series about Bobba Fett that was live action, which if it ever gets filmed or aired may very well be comparable to Star Trek. However, thus far both in their long runs are ebb and flow and each have ended.

What I will say is that my favorite character Garrak is better than Han Solo.

[Coffee]

Originally Posted by Teia Rabishu

Like deploy chemical weapons on civilians just because one ex-military terrorist pissed him off.

Though I guess that just means Sisko is the renegade compared to Picard's paragon.

That's a fair point, though honestly that episode made me appreciate Sisko as a character even more, in that he obviously has very real, human weaknesses. And, while "moral" isn't a word I'd apply to that situation, it does highlight even more why Lando would lose. The latter part of my statement, that Sisko does what he sets out to do, still stands.

And nice Mass Effect reference

[Enizzle]

Like I said in my post, I was going movie/tv series. In the movies, Leia is pretty soft. Kyra takes her. I did give Obi the slight edge overall, but specifically in single combat.

And first of all, I've noticed (and by all means, correct me if I'm wrong here) that Teia, who I've spent most of this thread responding to, hasn't given a single inch to ST. Again, if I'm wrong, correct me, but that reeks of rabid fanboy support with no actual logical backup.

I loved the one guy who mentioned that if star destroyers have this awesome weapons power, why don't they just blow up planets themselves. Thank you for the salient point, dude. Because if that doesn't nail home a point, what does? Why build a death star if you have a fleet of potentially millions of planet destroying ships? What could possibly be the motivation to build a space station that can't maneuver at all just to blow up planets, when you have an entire navy that'd do the same exact thing? Yeah, maybe the star destroyers do dial down power to take a planet whole, but then why not just dispatch what, according to power output levels (which is a JOKE) maybe 3 star destroyers to murder Alderaan? Why jump through so many unnecessary hoops to build this giant monstrosity that effectively serves no real purpose? Go ahead and quote that to respond that it's a resupply depot, or a troop transport, or a seat of power, any of those things. But we all know that won't fly as SSD are the same thing.

And I think that's the heart of the argument here. Even if you take into account that buffoon's article (again, don't, it's a complete farce) you gotta realize two very important things. One, it's almost laughable the amounts of power claimed to reside in the SW universe, when basic logic would assume that, if they had planet killing capabilities in star destroyers, they wouldn't need a death star. And two, ST is based on AT LEAST reasonable technological advances. Once again, where does logic and the suspension of disbelief come into play here? How many glaring illogical and nonsensical things have to be pointed out?

Teddy Bears overrunning a heavily defended shield generator?
Constructing a giant unnecessary planet killer when you supposedly have an entire fleet of perfectly good ones at hand?
Using the force alone to destroy entire planets/ships?
The complete dearth (heh heh) of imperial competence?

Honestly? This boils down to science vs fantasy. Yeah, it's a completely unnecessary and strange argument. But for christs sake, if we're gonna discuss the science aspect of it, then use real science. Real logic. Real argument. This whole "The empire has SUPER DUPER amounts of energy and we could do such-and-such and not blink an eye cause were ÜBER!!!" is a complete and total stretch that requires intelligent people to argue fanboyism and not reality.

And we BOTH know Kirk beats Solo. That's the only sure thing in this debate.