[SCD] Steelshaper's Gift

[Phantizle]

Originally Posted by wtwlf123

That's just the thing though. I need to have 2+ pieces of equipment for me to consider it. I only have 10 pieces of equipment in the entire cube, and they're all highly competed over. In any situation where I don't have 2 or more, I can't use the card. That's too narrow for me.

This is indeed the question. But 10 out of a 360 means that if 5/8 decks can use equipment, they will all end up with an average of 2. It may not work out that way, but those numbers aren't as bad as they seem.

[wtwlf123]

Originally Posted by Phantizle

This is indeed the question. But 10 out of a 360 means that if 5/8 decks can use equipment, they will all end up with an average of 2. It may not work out that way, but those numbers aren't as bad as they seem.

Assuming you're playing a format where every card in the cube is being used (which is rare here) and that there's 3 decks at the table that don't want any equipment at all. Those are both pretty unreliable estimations for my cube.

[Phantizle]

Originally Posted by wtwlf123

Assuming you're playing a format where every card in the cube is being used (which is rare here) and that there's 3 decks at the table that don't want any equipment at all. Those are both pretty unreliable estimations for my cube.

It actually doesn't matter how many people are playing, the percentage stays the same. Assuming a 45 card pool per player, there are 1.25 pieces of equipment per player in your cube. Getting a hold of two for a white equipment deck really shouldn't be that difficult.

[Donald]

Originally Posted by wtwlf123

Assuming you're playing a format where every card in the cube is being used (which is rare here) and that there's 3 decks at the table that don't want any equipment at all. Those are both pretty unreliable estimations for my cube.

But not too unreliable for cubes that run 8 man drafts. I would like to assume we're talking about 8 man drafts when discussing cube unless something else is specified. It may not be the most common on these boards but it certainly is the case for many of us as well as everyone that plays MTGO cube.

EDIT: I do agree this card loses value in 2 man formats, everyone wants to play equipment in those formats so the competition for it is fierce.

[wtwlf123]

Originally Posted by Phantizle

It actually doesn't matter how many people are playing, the percentage stays the same. Assuming a 45 card pool per player, there are 1.25 pieces of equipment per player in your cube. Getting a hold of two for a white equipment deck really shouldn't be that difficult.

But the reliability is gone. On average, there can be 1.25 per player. But there could only be 3 in the pool, or 7. Unlike something like Enlightened Tutor, getting enough targets in the same pool/deck isn't reliable.

And that doesn't factor in Winston or Sealed either, which makes the results even more random.

[Naill]

I was watching the replays of various finals in MTGO cube matches yesterday (a fascinating endeavor), and what I saw was that basically no white decks won without playing either Armageddon or a busted equipment (esp. jitte/sword of X+Y).

Based on this, there's nothing I want more in my white decks than the ability to do those two things regularly. I think that the cards are just that powerful (and yes, I'd likely try to splash blue for mystical tutor so I could reliably cast Geddon). Were I unable to pick up Stoneforge, I would happily run this card in any white-based deck so long as I had one of the 6 most busted equipment (5 swords, jitte), and w/ Skullclamp and Batterskull in certain decks as well. If I had Stoneforge in my deck, I would probably not run Gift at all.

I don't think this is a 360 card, because there are relatively few people that want Stoneforge (2 or 3, probably). But I don't think you need to get much larger to want to run it.

[wtwlf123]

Basing changes to an average cube on results from the MTGO cube isn't wise advice, IMO. White is far from underpowered in the average cube list, and cutting any of the great white cards in most cubes for this card wouldn't increase it's average performance.

[Power Conduit]

I think the Steelshaper's is a fine card, especially if you run a very robust equipment suite. I think it's probably better than Enlightened Tutor in cube. You should give it a shot, Naill, and let us know how it works out. Bear in mind that just a few months ago on this forum, there was talk of Stoneforge Mystic being worse than the Soltari brothers.

[TakeABow]

Originally Posted by Power Conduit

I think the Steelshaper's is a fine card, especially if you run a very robust equipment suite. I think it's probably better than Enlightened Tutor in cube. You should give it a shot, Naill, and let us know how it works out. Bear in mind that just a few months ago on this forum, there was talk of Stoneforge Mystic being worse than the Soltari brothers.

The thing about SS's gift is that it requires you to have at least 1 bomb equipment to use it at all, and preferably 3+ so that you don't have a dead card when you draw it and already have your equipment.

That makes it fairly narrow, as in the cube, the bomb equipment is pretty much all top-pick material, and it is hard to draft a multi-sword deck consistently enough to merit drafting SS's Gift early.

I do think it goes great in larger cubes where there is room for more P1P1 equipment.

[Power Conduit]

Of course nobody will pick it in the first few picks, but there's nothing wrong with including a card that will get picked late and fits into a specific type of deck (e.g. most gold cards). It may go 15th much of the time, or be passed in a Winston 80% of the time, but once picked up it'll probably have a big impact on the game much more often than its pick order would indicate.

[wtwlf123]

Originally Posted by Power Conduit

I think it's probably better than Enlightened Tutor in cube.

I don't think it's anywhere near the power-level of Enlightened Tutor in the cube. Not by any stretch.

[Power Conduit]

Originally Posted by wtwlf123

I don't think it's anywhere near the power-level of Enlightened Tutor in the cube. Not by any stretch.

Then I think you may be heavily overvaluing Enlightened Tutor. There aren't too many artifacts/enchantments which are worth both card AND tempo disadvantage. I'll try to list the non-equipment ones I notice from your cube:

Pernicious Deed
Wurmcoil Engine
Recurring Nightmare
Treachery
Winter Orb
Coalition Relic (maybe)
Tangle Wire(if you can get it out in time)
Crucible of Worlds (if you have Strip Mine)
Oblivion Ring (if they're about to PW ultimate)

I'll concede that being able to tutor at instant speed is nice for denying your opponent the chance to respond, but I'm guessing that at least half the time I'd be happier with Steelshaper's Gift than an Enlightened Tutor. Maybe in your own personal evaluation style, since you seem to value flexibility/consistency much higher than potential power, 50% of the time is not enough to make Steelshifter's Gift worth including alongside or in place of the Tutor. But personal preference aside, I strongly disagree that the Tutor is leagues above Steelshaper's Gift.

[PyreDream]

Even if it fetches a low-priority target, E. Tutor will always grab something. Steelshaper's Gift trades that ability for a narrower choice and the potential to be a dead card. And it's worth the card-disadvantage if the tutor fetches exactly the card you need to save you in a sticky situation, since the alternative would be losing the game. It's worth noting that the Gift has the same problem of card and tempo disadvantage as the tutor. If you're not using it to grab a sword or a jitte, then the disadvantage hardly seems worth it.

Enlightened Tutor is an answer. Steelshaper's Gift wants to be a threat. Given a choice between a Gift or a second equipment in draft, I'd rather pick the equipment. At least I know it's guaranteed not to be a dead card (or card disadvantage, whichever) if I draw the other first.

[Cyno]

Originally Posted by PyreDream

Given a choice between a Gift or a second equipment in draft, I'd rather pick the equipment. At least I know it's guaranteed not to be a dead card (or card disadvantage, whichever) if I draw the other first.

I have to disagree here. If I have a Jitte, SoBaM or SoFI in my pile I'd rather pick up a Gift than a Basilisk Collar. And if it's later in pack one, or in pack 2, it's not even close.

[TakeABow]

Originally Posted by Power Conduit

Then I think you may be heavily overvaluing Enlightened Tutor. There aren't too many artifacts/enchantments which are worth both card AND tempo disadvantage. I'll try to list the non-equipment ones I notice from your cube:

Pernicious Deed
Wurmcoil Engine
Recurring Nightmare
Treachery
Winter Orb
Coalition Relic (maybe)
Tangle Wire(if you can get it out in time)
Crucible of Worlds (if you have Strip Mine)
Oblivion Ring (if they're about to PW ultimate)

I'll concede that being able to tutor at instant speed is nice for denying your opponent the chance to respond, but I'm guessing that at least half the time I'd be happier with Steelshaper's Gift than an Enlightened Tutor. Maybe in your own personal evaluation style, since you seem to value flexibility/consistency much higher than potential power, 50% of the time is not enough to make Steelshifter's Gift worth including alongside or in place of the Tutor. But personal preference aside, I strongly disagree that the Tutor is leagues above Steelshaper's Gift.

He has more than just those which are worth tutoring for;
Granted, the situation where you tutor for Mox Emerald is pretty narrow, but the flexibility to tutor up exactly what you need to win the game is pretty enormous, and it also includes the ability to do everything that SS's gift does, minus it costing you a card. Costing a card is worth it when I can get Sulfuric Vortex or Wurmcoil Engine on demand. Being an instant also allows you to choose at the end of your opponent's turn acting on more information than SS's Gift lets you and providing them no chance to react, rather than giving them an entire turn to figure out how to answer the equipment you just showed them. And this is cube, so you can bet that every card you can tutor is a good card in the right situation.

Cards E. Tutor can get in Wtwlf's Cube

1 Land Tax 1 Journey to Nowhere 1 Seal of Cleansing 1 Oblivion Ring 1 Faith's Fetters 1 Moat 1 Phyrexian Metamorph 1 Crystal Shard 1 Forbid 1 Vedalken Shackles 1 Control Magic 1 Treachery 1 Animate Dead 1 Bitterblossom 1 Necromancy 1 Phyrexian Arena 1 Recurring Nightmare 1 Sulfuric Vortex 1 Rancor 1 Survival of the Fittest 1 Sylvan Library 1 Phyrexian Revoker 1 Masticore 1 Molten-Tail Masticore 1 Solemn Simulacrum 1 Triskelion 1 Wurmcoil Engine 1 Myr Battlesphere 1 Sundering Titan 1 Black Lotus 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mox Diamond 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mana Vault 1 Sol Ring 1 Grim Monolith 1 Mind Stone 1 Coalition Relic 1 Cursed Scroll 1 Pithing Needle 1 Sensei's Divining Top 1 Winter Orb 1 Crucible of Worlds 1 Ring of Gix 1 Tangle Wire 1 Nevinyrral's Disk 1 Smokestack 1 Pernicious Deed 1 Stormbind

// The only ones fetched by SS's Gift 1 Bonesplitter 1 Skullclamp 1 Umezawa's Jitte 1 Grafted Wargear 1 Sword of Body and Mind 1 Sword of Feast and Famine 1 Sword of Fire and Ice 1 Sword of Light and Shadow 1 Sword of War and Peace 1 Batterskull